Guild Wars 2

You are so late to the party and your conclusions are wrong. 30/30/0/10/0 is 6-10% better dps than 30/25 even with gs burst.

But 30/30 pure axe isn’t even the top warrior dps build. the old meta 30/25 is like, the third best warrior build for straight dps, not considering utility.

Worry not, all will be clear in time.

That thread started as GS+Axe vs Pure Axe.

It ended with neither concept being the best.

That’s how things go sometimes. I don’t think anyone won anything, except the scientific method being vindicated.

Flissy.4093:

Again, for the EA build I’m still awaiting maths if 4/6/0/4/0 is better than 6/2/0/4/2.

for the OP: DWA is good. It’s an 8.2% dps increase. This is a good thing. 8.2% is pretty good for a GM trait in a line that doesn’t have another good GM trait. That settles the “is it good” question.

Your specific question is harder to answer because those two builds have a different DPS rotation. I would have to record video of each DPS rotation to give you a 100% answer, but let’s assume a worst case scenario and the 4/6 version doesn’t use Eviscerate, though why it wouldn’t is beyond me.

6/2 EP = 17,241
4/6 EP = 18,149

The difference is about 5%. In practice its a fair bit higher in favor of the 4/6 build since the 4/6 build can Eviscerate.

Nick.6972:

What I’d love to know is how come AC p1 (10 minutes) gives you more gold than COE p1/p3?

CoE p1 is less than 10 minutes, so it makes sense that AC would reward more gold.

LordByron.8369:

That you get them sitting on the pC with their API (and many also bots…) to buy all the runes of strength possible when informations are released.

Let’s talk about Strength Runes.

They were shown a very very long time ago on the dev live stream. They went from about 80s to 3g immediately based on the hype. Then as the hype train slowed down over the course of the next month or two the price cooled down to 1g.

As the patch approached, the price began to creep back up as forward thinkers and theorycrafters realized they would be very good in some pve meta builds. Even right after the patch they were still available for fairly reasonable prices. If you are the type who plans ahead, thinks about builds, and pays attention to dev blogs and live streams you had every opportunity to get a set or two of these runes at a reasonable price.

On the other hand, it took a few days after the patch for the casual crowd who don’t pay attention to blogs, streams, youtube, forums etc to realize that these were pretty darn good runes. Word of mouth spread and suddenly there was a crush of demand for them. As demand surged, surely some speculators bought in hoping to ride the rising tide. But almost all of the demand was driven by players who suddenly wanted to regear their characters and were willing to pay a lot to have “perfect” gear. The current price is 100% driven by demand from end users, the speculators who bought in a 5g or less prices long since cashed out. The people buying now are the people who are gearing their toons.

Lessons to learn:

1. The early bird gets the worm. If you used 5-10 minutes of the two months between the runes being previewed and the patch to think about builds, you could have had a set of these runes for 4-5g. The guy who doesn’t care to plan ahead pays more. This isn’t rocket science.

2. Speculators aren’t the problem. The current price is demand driven, not speculator driven. Speculators bought in when the price was sub 1g each. No speculators are currently buying for 13g each, unless they are really dumb.

Flissy.4093:

Tree.3916:

GS camping is the highest dps warrior build

No it’s not. The rest of your post is untrustworthy and void now you made that comment.

Live in ignorance if you wish. Alternatively, you can try reading that second thread I linked to thoroughly.

GS camping is the highest dps warrior build, both in groups and solo. Reading the dungeon forums is more informative than class specific forums when it comes to PvE.

Warrior sub forum gets threads like https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/fractal-40-build-please that garner really bad advice by trolls and WvWers and other people who don’t understand the game.

Dungeon forums get threads like https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Warrior-GS-A-M-versus-A-M-DWA where actual math and video evidence are used and accepted.

The disparity is immense. If only the mods editted for content quality rather than meansy words said in a harsh tone over the internet.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Tree.3916:

I am curious, as I mentioned above, that the gs portion of the gs+a rotation is almost double the dps of the axe portion. Makes me wonder if it’s better dps, even in a group where the self-Might isn’t needed to even swap. Clearly Goku and Dub and the other lupi warrior solos have unscientifically figured out that it’s better when solo especially with strength runes, but I will go back in and do the math to see if it’s better in groups too.

Its better for the same reasons as in solo. You rarely have perma 25 might and vuln in casual runs. Obviously if you are doing a record or you are super keen every casual run like DD do then its not the best choice.

That isn’t good enough for me. I want to test it. It might be the best dps even in a record run but I won’t rely on conventional wisdom to decide that for me.

Edit: Forgive the badness of this dps rotation (and Swiftpaw audio), it could obviously be tightened up, but I was on my lunch break and didn’t have time to record something perfect, though it hardly matters once you see the results.

GS Rotation

100b = 3
WWAx4 = 3
BT = 2
Rush =2
Auto Chain = 4
GS First Auto = 2

Total Coefficients = 40.4

30/30/0/10/0

Power: 3,919
Crit Chance: 94%
Crit Damager: 117%
Damage Mods: 2.58
Coefficients/30 = 1.35

Total DPS: 12,727

Well that settles it for me. 30/30/0/10/0 GS camping is the top DPS warrior build. You can even have Axe/Mace on swap and start fights with #2 + #4 for vuln burst and then swap to GS camp the whole fight. Either way, this is the best dps you’re going to do.

FWIW Interrupting 100b isn’t mathematically bad. First 8 hits have a coefficient of .55 each. Last hit has a 1.1, but it takes twice as long, so the last hit is essentially the exact same as the others.

Thats why in game GS always yields better results?

Is that for sure? You’ve done extensive testing in controlled settings with both builds in optimal group comps? Maybe you have, probably you haven’t. Hard to make such a statement though.

Its quite obvious why GS is superior in suboptimal team comps and/or casual runs, it can self-buff better and has innate mobility skills to make you faster. I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise.

I am curious, as I mentioned above, that the gs portion of the gs+a rotation is almost double the dps of the axe portion. Makes me wonder if it’s better dps, even in a group where the self-Might isn’t needed to even swap. Clearly Goku and Dub and the other lupi warrior solos have unscientifically figured out that it’s better when solo especially with strength runes, but I will go back in and do the math to see if it’s better in groups too.

What would make you more bummed out: having to camp gs and never swapping, or camping axe?

Second question… If 6% dps isn’t enough to make sacrificing a Fast Hands build worth it (i.e. you’re willing to play a technically worse dps build for the sake of utility/fun) at what point would the DPS gap have to be before you reconsidered? 10% I feel wouldnt be enough to change your tune for casual runs but probably enough in record runs. My guess is that if the gap was 15% or more you’d just suck it up.

Quite absurd to say that interrupting 100b isn’t bad. Feel free to interrupt your every 100b.

It’s bad in the sense that the rate of 100b over the whole channel is amazingly good so missing out on any of the channel is a big loss. But people seem to be under the impression that the last hit is the best dps (not just the best damage). My point is that the 100b channel dps is evenly distributed and not backloaded. I wouldn’t recommend interrupting your 100b for the same reason I wouldn’t recommend missing out on any of your dps rotation, but there is a difference between the 100b rotation and axe auto chain in terms of damage distribution.

mooty.4560:

Syde.5961:

But really dude…you just don’t get it. These builds are called meta, because the MAJORITY of the profession’s community agrees that they are the most viable atm.
Take this thread as an example 3 out of the 4 people agree upon the same builds. Now, if you were new to a profession would you choose the build that 1 single guy posted or the one that 3 other people said is really good?

The builds are called meta because 3 out of 4 people agree on this thread?

And the rest of the community of people who care about optimizing their builds.

Here I was thinking it meant the builds are the most prolific at a given moment. Prove the builds are that and I’m sold on the notion. Show me the extent of this “profession community” and you might sway me to believe that the builds being meta is probable. Attempt to convince me there’s no alternative to your build choices through argument and maybe change my way of thinking.

What sort of proof would you accept? You could go to gwscr, look at all the dungeon speed clear records and watch what builds the people are running. It would be fairly clear that there is a general consensus among what the best build(s) are for every profession.

I anticipate your response will be, “that’s a tiny niche yadda yadda pvx wiki not what the general community would consider meta.” My pre-emptory response is that the overwhelming majority of players in gw2 are total casuals who don’t care at all about running efficient builds (and that was true in gw1 as well despite the existence of pvx) so basing what is “meta” off people who don’t care about running meta builds is a dubious decision. The meta is established by the people who care about efficiency and min/max, so regardless of whether you want that to be true or not, it is.

Clumsy.6257:

hendo.1940:

Still missing it. Keep trying.

Also, I like pretending groups have permanent 25 might too, it makes me feel good.

After watching DnT’s streams I’m not surprised you can’t maintain 25 stacks considering most of the time there aren’t any eles in the party.

Let’s talk about the stuff we see on each other’s streams again! You definitely want to start that topic back up!

Don’t marry a concept. Keep an open mind.

20/20/0/30/0 = 13791 ep
0/30/0/30/10 = 14212 ep

I didn’t count the free 180 power from sig of might which makes the dps of 0/30 way better because its going to eventually be fixed. One consideration is that Signet of Rage is pretty good, but I doubt it’s worth sacrificing personal dps for.

The build seems viable but with one or two eles it is a bit redundant. The 20/30/0/20/0 axe build does quite a bit more personal dps assuming 25 might stacks, so my guess is that phalanx strength fills some niche where you have a group with no ele in which case it’s probably better than alternative might stacking measures. Seems like a good build for skilled but disorganized pugs or perhaps some fractal group comps.

edit: I messed up and originally gave 20/20 the Attack of Opportunity 10%. Removing that changes the math.

hendo.1940:

you interrupted your auto chain in the axe/gs rotation which kind of wrecks your DPS

You’re better off interrupting after the first chop in the one sequence to swap back to greatsword. What would wreck your dps is staying in axe for a moment longer than you had to. Are you seriously suggesting on the rotation I swapped back to GS after Chop that I should have let the axe auto play all the way out? If so, I think you’re mistaken.

dub

The gs rotation (execution) was horrible.

OK.

dub

Also, you forgot having your target bleeding

I didn’t use damage floaters or combat log to calculate dps, the only traits I used were FGS and fast hands (where appropriate) and DWA (where appropriate). I recorded it solely to see how many hits of each attack I landed in a 30 second window. I am fairly convinced the coefficients derived from the tool tip are accurate enough that we can draw accurate conclusions from them.

dub

you could do your test two times and get two different results, differing by 10%.

I could improve the rotations with practice, the biggest mistake I made was swapping to axe when I could have used blade trail and I could have done a second Impale/Rip on the other build. I’m not particularly convinced my results are so easily dismissed.

We are at an impasse. You say the coefficients as we know them are wrong. You haven’t said how they are wrong or what the correct values are. This is a serious problem because it means either…

1. Axe coefficients are higher on the tool tip than reality. This means that warrior is even lower on the overall dps rankings relative to other classes.
2. Greatsword coefficients are higher in reality than the tool tip. The implications of this are that GS is significantly underrated and I wonder why people bother swapping to axe at all when a 30/30/0/10/0 gs camping build would have the highest dps of them all?
3. Both of the above are true and 30/30 gs camping build is the best dps build for warrior

I’m a bit vexed in the entire time the game has been out and people had access to steady weapons that you believe no one bothered to double check the skill coefficients. I don’t think you calculated the skill coefficients individually, you derived an average coefficient/time number by backing out the damage done on your screen vs the average weapon strength or something. To be honest that seems incredibly OTT complicated way to do it, and since you’re not calculating it on a skill by skill basis it makes me doubt you can be so sure that coefficients are wrong since the experiment doesn’t have enough controls. Either calculate the actual skill by skill coefficients and tell us what they are or we can’t move forward.

GS rotation

Cyclone axe = 3
Crushing blow = 2
100b = 3
WWA (4 hits) = 2
Blade Trail = 1
Rush = 1
Axe Auto = 2
Chop = 1

Total GS Coefficients = 25.30
Total Axe Coefficients = 14.80

Power = 3923
Crit chance = 88%
Crit Damage = 1.27
GS Damage mods = 2.50
Axe Damage mods = 2.39

Total GS DPS = 7761.00
Total Axe DPS = 4141.17
Total DPS = 11,902.17
_______

Axe Rotation

Cyclone Axe = 4
Crushing Blow = 2
Impale = 1
Rip = 1
Auto Attack Chain = 7

Total Coefficients = 42.05

Power = 3923
Crit Chance = 94%
Crit Damage = 1.27
Damage Mods (3 boons) = 2.46

Total DPS = 12,691.00

30/30 pure axe about 6% better dps than 30/25 Gs+a. Having a boss against the wall would make it a little closer since the gs rotation would be better, but WWA did hit this boss 4×. I think this is an accurate enough measurement to be valid.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Once again testing in a vacuum.

And any real world boss fight would have enough variables and imperfections to be nitpicked into meaninglessness.

hendo.1940:

Tree.3916:

hendo.1940:

“Frees you up to run more Thieves instead of eles.”
Why would I want to replace Eles? Why would I want a second Thief?

moar deeps in non-fgs situations

Explain how a thief in a non-fgs situation is more dps than a staff ele.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfLHcyA9Cgc

From 6:23 to 6:33 you deal 94,830 damage @ ~12 stacks of might

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7pUXXRJJwA

From 6:34 to 6:44 you deal 75,523 damage @ 24 stacks of might (no scholar bonus). Bump it up to 83,075 if you want to factor in scholar bonus.

???

Thief = inquest potion, decent food + stacks, Scholar, full ascended

Ele = undead potion, cheap food, no scholar, no stacks, exotic weapons and armor

Not exactly a perfectly valid comparison. Or at least, not a meaningful one.

hendo.1940:

“Frees you up to run more Thieves instead of eles.”
Why would I want to replace Eles? Why would I want a second Thief?

moar deeps in non-fgs situations

Explain how a thief in a non-fgs situation is more dps than a staff ele.

“Frees you up to run more Thieves instead of eles.”

Why would I want to replace Eles? Why would I want a second Thief?

Axelwarrior.9084:

Why is this in the Dungeons subforum instead of the Warrior’s?

Because the warrior subforum isnt a good venue for intelligent conversation.

My numbers, after discussing a lot with Dub, look like this…

GS Burst portion = 15,338 dps x .58 = 8,896
GS Axe Portion = 11,591 dps x .42 = 4,868
Total dps = 13,764

Pure Axe = 13,982

The only thing I differed with on my assumption was I assumed boss against a wall, so I gave credit for WWA but did not use blade trail.

The differences aren’t that much, well within the range of human rotational error, dodging, and the various vicissitudes of combat.

My advice is the following…

1. Run an EA warrior as your main warrior.
2. Your second warrior should be another ele.
3. If you must run a pure dps warrior, run the one whose rotation you will mess up the least.

“What you wish for may not be what Anet wishes for.” -Tree.3916

Edit Who ends statements with prepositions?

frifox.5283:

My assumption is there is a small amount of idle time between animations. The 10% trait decreases the duration of the animation but not the time between them.

Some math, assuming aa always hit for 35k,

• untraited = 60/3.560*35k
• traited = 60/3.280*35k
• increase = (traited-untraited)/untraited*100
• increase = 8.5%

If you compare the difference against traited: (traited-untraited)/traited*100 = 7.87%.
Not 100% which one is the correct % to use in dps calculations. If someone here is a math major, feel free to chip in. Either way, neither are 10% as tooltip suggests.

The best thing to do is calculate the average expected DPS for identical builds and see what the real world difference is. Using 30/30/0/10/0 with full party buffs I find the expected dps of just auto attacks to be…

Traited : 14,779
Untraited: 13,568

So, assuming your timing of the attack speed is correct, the trait is worth about an 8.2% dps increase.

I don’t think the OP said he was looking for mediocre builds. Usually when people solicit advice they are looking for the best advice. So I linked him to the best builds.

As far as you’re concerned, I would have ignored your bad builds entirely without comment except you threw in obnoxious buzzwords to make them sound entirely better than they really are. If you’re going to say a medicore build is “the best solution” don’t be surprised when people tell you you’re wrong.

mooty.4560:

Tree.3916:

These builds are not the meta, or anything close to it. No offense but you don’t really seem to know what you’re talking about so using advertising words like “best solution”, “amazing”, “all important” is misleading to people who don’t know better. Please stop spreading misinformation.

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that this thread was for posting builds that random player named ‘Tree’ decides is meta and has youtube links for. LoL.

Apology accepted. I tried to be as nice as possible pointing out that your build ideas are bad and you don’t know what you’re talking about. Again, just so we’re all clear, your build suggestions are bad and the fact you gussy them up with adjectives to make them sound good is deceptive and blatant misinformation.

And who I am or am not isn’t relevant if the information I provide is correct and accurate.

mooty.4560:

My warrior is my main, so I run a bunch of different builds in high level fractals.

If you want the best all around solution I would suggest greatsword/longbow. Something like (0/30/25/0/15) works well as DPS focused or (0/20/20/30/0) for offensive support.

The new Phalanx Strength trait is amazing and the clear way to use it is via greatsword with the all important Forceful Greatsword trait. Throw in Runes of Strength and perhaps even a Sigil of Strength to make it more potent.

I really don’t think axe is up to snuff without going overboard with offensive specs. Greatsword allows for much more utility. However, if you want to go that route you can shun defense and run (30/20/0/0/20). This spread is for Berserker’s Power/Critical Burst/Sharpened Axes.

These builds are not the meta, or anything close to it. No offense but you don’t really seem to know what you’re talking about so using advertising words like “best solution”, “amazing”, “all important” is misleading to people who don’t know better. Please stop spreading misinformation.

Edit
Use this video to determine which build you want to use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzwwpdBys14
Or this one which is way more indepth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJsQ4m05vE

If you want a WvW warrior build
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Erh84Oic0

It might be a bit outdated but it should do the job.

Anierna.6918:

Tree.3916:

For what its worth, when I watch groups like yours on live stream, I think a lot worse than “lol casuals.”

The only recorded runs of MY groups are the SE p1 and p3 record runs on YouTube. I don’t usually livestream because I would drop below 100 FPS. The livestream I know you’re referring to is not applicable and I’ve stated why here

Since you brought up livestreams, there was a particularly funny one from a well-known DnT member on thief with multiple wipes at Lupi.

Mistakes happen all the time, no one in DnT claimed to be perfect. The only claiming to be perfect seems to be you, from what I can tell. The elitist bs might impress someone who doesn’t know better, but it doesn’t impress people who are actually in elite guilds, and all it does is alienate you from the rest of the community.

You might not care about alienating us now, but that’s a bad long term plan. Guilds comes and go, and the people you kitten off now might be the people in charge of the guild you try to be a member of in the future and people remember burnt bridges and bad attitudes.

Anierna.6918:

Tree.3916:

Anierna.6918:

I’ve seen IX and DnT do exactly this, and I’m always puzzled. How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default?

I can’t speak for cold snap, but for us, we don’t really care about team comp in casual runs so long as we have a viable team comp; aka one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners. Any further optimization is unnecessary when not pushing times.

Hold on a sec. So you’re saying that some optimization is acceptable, in your words “one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners,” but other optimization, such as optimal group comp, isn’t? Yet earlier you said:

Tree.3916:

“waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

I’m gonna take your analogy a bit further and say that “waaaaaa I wanna use my Guard in AC and my Mes in TA and I don’t care if using my Ele would be better for the group” is no different from “waaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” and “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

That sounds a bit hypocritical to me. IMO, if you’re gonna optimize, go all the way. You can’t stop part-way and then criticize others (the “casuals”) for not optimizing enough. Because then those of us who do optimize all the way will do the same thing to you. I’m running optimal builds and group comps in every tour – I look at guilds who run wacky group comps and I think to myself “lol. Casuals.” Tell me, how is that any different from you looking at groups who run knights/cavaliers and thinking the same thing?

Because if you have a viable comp that maxes vuln, caps might, has banners and EA, the remaining optimization is extremely trivial and easily made up for by superior play skill. If someone enjoys playing mesmer and we have a viable group comp I’m not going to tell them they have to change so our casual TA run can be faster.

For what its worth, when I watch groups like yours on live stream, I think a lot worse than “lol casuals.”

Anierna.6918:

I’ve seen IX and DnT do exactly this, and I’m always puzzled. How can you even call yourself an elite guild when you don’t min/max by default?

I can’t speak for cold snap, but for us, we don’t really care about team comp in casual runs so long as we have a viable team comp; aka one that can cap Might, cap vuln, has reflects (if needed), and can drop both banners. Any further optimization is unnecessary when not pushing times.

P.S. I know you’re an abrasive and you enjoy that persona, but the way you phrased what you said comes off a lot like saying your guild is more elite than pretty much every other dungeon guild on NA or EU. You’re not.

Most people who think the axe warrior build is boring probably haven’t played it. Doing the proper rotation is a bit more challenging than the gs+axe build and it’s significantly more active, especially the EA build that Eviscerates as part of the rotation.

I feel like I’m surrounded by crybaby carebear casuals. “waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

I havn’t done the maths for it but I wonder if rotating out to GS to HB/WWA on a wall/ then rush would be a DPS increase against faceroll bosses once they fix the rush bug.

The 30/30 axe build is superior dps even when the boss is against the wall, over a full rotation of both weaponsets.

As pointed out, the advantage of greatsword is not the dps, its the self-buffing ability. If you need self-buffing because your party is bad, or you are solo’ing/duo’ing/trio’ing content, run the 30/25 gs+axe build. If you run with an organized group, you should certainly be using the axe builds. Heck the 30/25 gs build is barely better personal dps than the empower allies build, without even considering how much it buffs your teammates.

What I think is happening is a lot of people (not you specifically Xae just so you don’t think im talking about you) have carebear tendancies and can’t imagine playing without their greatsword because they like the aesthetics. This is a perfectly fine position to take, but be honest. Admit you’re doing it because you care about looks and aesthetics more than you care about efficiency. Once you can admit you don’t play to win, the easier it will be to enjoy a play how you want casual mentality where you can use your greatsword to your heart’s content.

Plus, there’s quite a few fights that favor burst damage or mobility. An example being Lupi on P3, it really helps to have WWA to get out of the huge PBAoE, and since you’re already on GS, why not just throw HB at him?

Retrait for lupicus if you need to.

Or the dredge final boss. You can melee him for a brief while before you gotta move, so it favours burst damage.

No, has 2 important attacks. If your group has proper dps you can kill him in one pour. Most people have no clue how to melee him so they don’t even try. Use offhand Sword. Use an Energy Sigil

No what it means is, if you farm the first boss of CMp3 over and over again you can’t loot his chest over and over again. Or the first boss in hotw which many bots were doing.

You could at least link to Nike’s video/guru thread.

oilstorm.1748:

Ok, let me put this in terms you’ll understand. In fact, your terms. Suppose your character has 100% crit damage, 100% crit chance, and you then spend 10 points to increase your crit damage to 110% which results in a 7% overall DPS increase. What happens when you spend another 10 points? THE FUNCTION IS A LINE, YOU GET ANOTHER 7% OVERALL DPS. I no longer care if you believe it or not. In fact, I actually wrote that for the benefits of those in this thread, just in case anyone still believes this actual misconception.

At this point, I know what I am dealing with here. Not that it matters, I have shown what I wanted to show. No doubt you will post some rebuttal about how you BELIEVE you are right and/or that the opinions of others arent valid. A rebuttal that will likely be a bunch of noise, resting on BELIEF.

1,000 base damage + (1,000 * 1.0) = 2,000 damage
1,000 + (1000 * 1.1) = 2,100 = 4.8% dps increase
1,000 + (1000 * 1.2) = 2,200 = 4.5%
1000 + (1000 * 1.3) = 2,300 = 4.3%

This continues infinitely.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Not everything in PvE is zerk.

Take the collosus fractal for example. At 40+, you’re going to be taking serious unavoidable damage constantly, with vulnerability and poison bring stacked on you all the time, and damage isn’t really that important because the aim until the boss fight isn’t to kill things quickly as possible but to survive. In fact, you would even want to control your damage sometimes.

It’s just that we don’t have enough of content like that and all the stuff the average player does to get income everyday is just faceroll, so you may as well just go full zerk.

Having said that, warriors are a bit of a special class because even if you go full zerk, you still have quite a bit of survivability.

Weird, I have no problem in full berserker doing the cliffside fractal. So long as you have sufficient AR the condition circles are trivial. Much more concerning are the archdiviner’s hammer attacks which can kill you quickly if you can’t dodge. But that comes down to individual player skill. I suppose if you can’t read those kind of boss tells you would be better off with a tankier set. As you improve, you will dodge his attacks innately. On the plus side, you will be much better in pvp fighting all the hambows once you can beat the Archdiviner in melee.

Why not?

Because Mace guardian would be the top DPS build in the game not using fiery greatsword by a significant margin.

Natsu Dragneel.1625:

I find we work really well together and our frac50 runs usually last about 20-30 minutes

Link to the video of sub 30 minute fractal 50. Bloomhunger -> Volcanic -> Aether -> Duo? Theoretically possible, but I think you’re exaggerating a bit with the term “usually” describing sub 30 minute fractal 50’s.

oilstorm.1748:

Well frankly I would rather you stop pretending you understand other peoples “misconceptions” before understanding your own. You haven’t debunked any of my claims. In fact you haven’t even come close. You know what? Lets be clear what my claims are here so that you can debunk them.

Claim1: The “Average Damage” formula cannot be used to calculate DPS and can only be used to calculate… average damage.

Claim2: Critical damage does not have diminishing returns and is linear.

Oh I understand. People who have math backgrounds and know the jargon get insulted when people who don’t have math backgrounds like me, understand theorycraft. If you’re offended by me using incorrect terminology, fine, but don’t let that distract from that fact that my conclusions are 100% correct, and the previous fellow was wrong.

Claim 1: I don’t care about this. You seem overly concerned with the jargon I used rather than the point I made. He specifically said that at 100% crit chance a 1% critical damage increase = a 1% dps increase. This is undeniably incorrect and I demonstrated why. Regardless of whether my using the math terminology incorrect is abrasive to your sensibilities, my conclusion was correct.

Claim 2: It is linear. But it also improves your dps by a smaller overall percentage as you add more of it, whereas base damage modifiers will always improve your DPS by that amount regardless of scaling. As a quick and dirty example (im sure you’ll hate) if a character has 100% critical damage. And you spend 10 trait points to increase it to 110%, you get some amount overall DPS increase. Let’s call it 7%. If you add ANOTHER 10 trait points to increase to 120%, your overall DPS will only increase by, say, 5%. Thus, the returns from the second 10 trait points are diminished from the first, which is what I was talking about when I said “diminishing returns.” Again, don’t get caught up in the technical terms I was using, worry that the theorycraft is correct, which it is.

Necro with Well of Corruption vs. Dredge.

or

Staff Ele with ice bow vs Dredge.

Is this a question?

If you read the assumption, I said “assume both builds do a base 10,000 dps.” That took into account the /time factor you are looking for. To be technical, the equation I presented was “average expected damage per second.”

Next, I chose my numbers for the sake of being round. If you change the 10,000 to 5,000 or 1,000 the conclusion is exactly the same.

Lastly, you don’t even seem to understand what the numbers I typed express. The extra 1000 dps that build A receives is not Power. It was a 10% damage modifier, the sort you would get from Attack of Opportunity. A 10% damage modifier does indeed function in the manner I described. Critical damage functions in the manner I described. Adding 150 Ferocity to a build adds a critical damage of 10%. In that equation it would be expressed as a .1. This is how the game works.

I’ll be happy to help you clear up your confusions if you have any remaining. Like I offered the previous confused fellow, I would rather answer your questions about how the game works than have to debunk your misconceptions like I just did. It would be easier and more pleasant for everyone if you asked the questions first.

Some people seem to be forgetting that after the patch you can now get 2 sigils on greatswords (along with longbow/rifle).
Probably won’t make GS superior to axe, but it’ll be quite close.

I didn’t. When I calculated the dps for each build post patch I included a Force sigil on the greatsword.

Did anyone in your party even attempt to complete the event chain to open the dungeon?

Seems a bit silly if you ask me. I can analogize your predicament with a starving man refusing to pick up a sandwich because he didn’t want to move his hands… and then getting mad at the person who made the sandwich…

So much misinformation, where to start?

Hayashi.3416:

30/10/0/0/30 was previously the highest damage record holder after considering average multiplier in a skill rotation … as in both cases critrate is nearly 100% when you throw in the signets and banner, 1% critdmg = 1% dmg, so the 30/10/0/0/30 outperformed the 30/25/0/0/15 meta by 5% damage.

Incorrect. 30/10 was about 4-5% worse DPS assuming full party buffs. You do not seem to understand how to calculate DPS, I will demonstrate below why you are incorrect with the bolded portion.

Let’s assume two builds, each has a 100% crit chance. both have no crit damage from gear. Both builds do a base dps of 10k. One build has a 10% dps modifier, and one build has 10% critical damage. According to you, these builds have identical DPS. Let’s see if that is correct…

Build A: (10,000 × 1.1) + ((10,000 × 1.1) *.5) = 16,500 dps
Build B: 10,000 + (10,000 * .6) = 16,000 dps

As you can see, the base damage modifier is significantly better, even when critical damage is low. But critical damage has diminishing returns. What this means is, as you add more critical damage it does not increase your DPS 1:1. at a certain point, doubling your critical damage does not approach a doubling of your DPS. Let’s run the numbers with very high critical damage.

Build A: 11,000 + (11,000*1.6) = 28,600 dps
Build B: 10,000 + (10,000*1.7) = 27,000 dps

The gap has now widened to 6%. The gap will continue to widen the more DPS modifiers you add (since they are multiplicative) and the more critical damage you add. These are the basics of DPS theorycraft in this game, I will be happy to help you with any clarifications you need.

However, in the new meta, adding 10% attack speed in addition to the 10% damage on bleed is a base increase of 21% damage. In contrast the formerly good +30% critdmg has been nerfed to 300 ferocity, or 20% damage. When we add in the damage the bleed itself does, the new 30/30/0/10/0 eclipses the old 30/10/0/0/30 build. It also eclipses the more popular old 30/25/0/0/15 build – which after the patch will outdamage the 30/10/0/0/30 due to the Ferocity nerf – by cutting damage of the 30/10/0/0/30 by 10% and the damage of the 30/25/0/0/10 by 3%, the formerly 105% build now becomes 95%, while the 100% becomes 97% – clearly, 97% > 95%, and the 30/10/0/0/30 has become worthless with the update.

You’re right but for the wrong reasons. 30/10 was always bad, and the reason 30/30 is going to be better than 30/25 is because it is getting another 10% damage modifier (in a sense) and will have a significantly higher crit chance. It is trading away 10% critical damage and Fast Hand for 13% damage modifiers (a very good trade as I showed above) and 7% chance to crit. This is why it is better.

The 30/25/0/0/15 is popular but was never actually the most damaging option, and problems with inexperienced players interrupting 100b or the axe autoattack chain (or worse, staying in GS mode) simply made it underperform even more. The rarely used and often maligned 30/10/0/0/30 had superior damage, but its users must now throw it away because critdmg% is no longer worth what it used to be. 30/30/0/10/0 is now the way to go – though since the rest of the gear stats are also being nerfed, even this ‘new best dps’ will lose to the current dps. Across the board, dps will drop after this update.

You’re wrong. The top DPS warrior build was pure axe (30/25/0/10/5). There is no dispute that this build was clearly superior to all other warrior builds in DPS, but not utility. The small advantage it had in sustained DPS over the GS build was rarely worth giving up the GS utility and burst potential. 30/10, as I have demonstrated was at best the 3rd best option.

Btw, if you think GS aa can compete with the axe aa… you really, really need to look up the term ‘power multiplier’.

There is no such thing as a “Power Multiplier” that is a made up term. Greatsword auto attack is bad because it has a low attack speed. The Greatsword auto attack chain has a coefficient of 2.3 every 2.4 seconds. The Axe auto attack chain is 5.0 over 3.6 seconds. That is remarkably better on a per second basis. However, the greatsword burst skills are a coefficient of 9.3 over 6.2 seconds which is amazingly good. This is why the GS + axe/mace build was used, it had superior burst potential while also having a respectable axe auto attack option. The pure axe (30/25/0/10/5) had better sustained DPS but took about 17+ seconds to achieve superior dps to the gs+axe/mace. Most fights did not last long enough for the sustained advantage to be relevant.

If you need clarification of anything, I will be happy to help because I truly hate misinformation.

hooma.9642:

Tree.3916:

Cool story, but it appears I was right, you don’t know how
….

if u think so, well to bad for u. alone that u think 30/25/0/0/15 has the same CRIT-DMG like 30/30/0/10/0 with same traits in strength shows me u have no idea what u talking about.

Why would I use Slashing Power in a 30/30 pure axe build? I would use Axe Mastery which gives 150 Ferocity, which would be the same at the 15 in Discipline.

mentioning food and saying 30xx30 is unplayable is the best joke ever. stick to your pve-world and make your high-end dmg but dont cry if u die else where. it had a reason i mentioned utility

Ummm we are talking about pve top dps builds. I guess you weren’t.

Since you’re talking WvW I’m not sure why anyone would run anything but 0/0/30/10/30 or 10/0/30/0/30 in WvW.

Cool story, but it appears I was right, you don’t know how to calculate DPS.

The 30/25 build has the same crit damage as the 30/30 build thanks to axe mastery. The 30/30 build has a base damage modifier for 2.46 (assuming 3 boons). The 30/25 has 2.38. The 30/30 build has a base buffed crit chance with food of 95%. 30/25 88%. So the 30/25 build is equal to or weaker in every category.

Then we factor in dual wield agility into our dps rotations.

GS axe mace dps rotation = 15.3 coefficient every 11.2 seconds = 1.366 per second

Pure Axe Rotation = 16.7 coefficient every 10.6 = 1.575.

30/25 = 1.366
30/30 = 1.575

Modify for weapon damage difference…

30/25 = 1.366
30/30 = 1.496

Now modify for damage modifiers

30/25 = 3.25
30/30 = 3.68

Well that isn’t looking good for 30/25. Should I bother calculating crit chance and crit damage into that, since they have the same crit damage only the 30/25 has 7% less crit chance?

As far as 30/x/x/x/30 goes, you’re off in left field because Ferocity will be even worse than base damage modifiers, so a build that was already significantly worse before the patch is going to go to unplayable.

As far as the EA build goes, the new build can eviscerate on full adrenaline which represents a fairly big boost. When you consider significantly higher crit chance and 10% attack speed, it more than makes up for the marginal crit damage the 30/10/0/20/10 build has.

You can get 4 mantras and feedback with one lesser known trick. Making sure you cap vuln is probably the most important thing. If you have warriors make sure they Eviscerate during the feedback, if you have eles make sure they icebow #4 during it.

Your traits are 20/20/30/0/0.

Problem #1: You seem to have gone out of your way to avoid % damage modifiers. This is plausible in a build dedicated to using your burst skills, but you aren’t that since you don’t have Burst Mastery or Furious. So you have, frankly, abysmal dps. You are missing about 35% damage modifiers compared to the meta Axe build. Then factor in that you’re runnign Valks, so your crit chance (or lack thereof) is costing you another 20% dps. The DPS is very very bad for a pve build.

Problem #2. The Defense trait line is absolutely amazing in pvp/wvw. It has nothing to offer in pve. There condition removal is useless, there is nothing to increase your dps, and the grandmaster traits are uneeded since you should be dodging the type of hits Defy Pain protects you from.

Problem #3. You don’t want to play the meta. You want to be more team oriented. Fine. So… ummm… why don’t you have 20 in Tactics for banner cooldown reduction and Empower Allies? Those are two fantastic support traits that allow a warrior to better do what a warrior does for team support. Offensive support.

Problem #4 Eagle Runes would be less DPS for you than Scholar Runes or Opal Orbs. I would use Opal Orbs instead, and put the Exquisite Opal Jewels in all your trinket sockets until you get Ascended berserkers.

Problem #5 Offhand Axe is worse than literally any other choice. Even shield brings more the table than Axe. But if I were you, I would bring Mace and Warhorn and Sword and change the one you use on an encounter by encounter basis.

killahmayne.9518:

That also doesn’t mean I purposely run the worst possible build for PvE, because I do care if a run takes 20 minutes instead of 10 and I am holding that back. However so called elitists tend to lose sight of things and tend to berate and belittle others just because they aren’t as serious about certain content (i.e PvE) as they are and are getting on the case of people running a build that is perhaps only 90% optimal instead of 95% optimal. Some just don’t respect people that don’t care about that stuff as much they do and the concept of people trying to play this game for the fun or as a stress reliever is completely foreign to them. Some just fail to consider other perspectives other than their own. Now that is what I consider shameful.

Maybe I am delving to deep into this, but that is the honest truth.

The difference is, when I PvE I run the absolute best build I possible can. When I sPvP I run the best build I can. When I WvW I run the absolute best build I can. Not sucking matters to me, because I try to do the best I can do. I don’t care about spvp or wvw nearly enough to consider myself “good” at them, but I try to do the best I can out of respect for my teammates and for my personal edification.

So if I’m not kiting mobs away from the party, then what am I doing? If I can pull 3 mobs away from the group, thats 3 mobs that aren’t attacking everyone else.

I have no idea what you’re doing. Post a video of you in a group doing Arah and I can give specific answers.

Whats wrong with my build? The ONLY answer I’ve recieved on this subject is that it doesn’t do enough damage. I will gladly welcome any help on maintaining a valk build, and improvements towards that end. But the overall message that I’m getting is that anything but zerker sucks, and you’re a bad player, and stop trying to fight the system and just submit.

Let me stop you right there. No one advocating for berserker gear has made the statement that you’re bad, for all we know you might be great. The point we are making is that the optimal gearset for pve is berserker, and if you want to be the best you can be, that is what you would run.

If you don’t care about maximizing your potential that’s fine, no one will knock people who just want to play without having to put tons of effort in, but at the same time time you have to be honest with yourself and honest about the effort you’re putting in and the results you’re getting out.

Lastly, “maintaining a valk build” is a weir term for me. Why are you so married to the concept of Valkyrie’s gear? It’s like you found a conclusion (using Valkyries gear) and then went out of your way to find the question it solves. It strikes as the same attitude of an early adopter who buys a new product without waiting for reviews and then returns home after purchasing and reads all the reviews to confirm the decision that has already been made. I’m guessing your spent a ton of gold on Valkyries gear and you feel committed to running it. What you’d find is that you would probably have better DPS using exotic berserkers gear over ascended Valks, but barring that you would be better off using the meta traits and Valks gear to bad traits and Valks gear. So you made a mistake, the solution isn’t to double down and run a half-kittened pseudo tank build, it’s to try to fix it the best you can and make the best of your circumstances.

pdavis.8031:

Wait, so while I’m pulling mobs/boss AWAY from the group and doing DECENT damage at the same time, I’m not actually pulling anything and the avatars chasing me aren’t really chasing me. It’s all in my head? Yes I understand that you can’t “hold aggro” but I can get a group to chase me. Granted it’s not a for a long drawn out time, but it’s enough for the “squishier” people in the group to recover before diving back into the fray.

Do you want me to lie to you? No, you aren’t pulling more than 1/5th of the aggro. Sorry that’s the truth, the sooner you stop deceiving yourself the better you’ll be for it.

[Sarcasm] Apparently I don’t know how to play at all and am just a horrible player because I don’t follow the zerk mentality and be a mindless lemming. There is no other way to play than zerker, and in not doing so I’m ruining the game for everyone else. [End sarcasm]

I really need to learn to ignor the trolls

I’m not trolling, I’m trying to help you. If you don’t want help, fine. But don’t pretend you are something you’re not, your build is something it isn’t, and you’re doing something you are not doing.

pdavis.8031:

I prefer a style more on the front lines taking aggro and using my defensive capabilities to draw the mobs away from the party if possible.

There is no mechanism to attract and hold aggro in this game. All you’re doing is roleplaying an off-tank and such a construct does not exist in the mechanics of the game.

What you think you’re doing: Playing off-tank, holding aggro so the squishies can DPS while I still manage to get some good DPS of my own in

What you are actually doing: Taking 1/5th of the aggro, and doing mediocre DPS.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Honnestly, if you count on the new “Dual Wield agility” trait to boost pure axe builds, you’re gonna be disapointed… like a lot. It’s only 10% percent attack speed increase : chop takes 0,25 seconds to activate, double chop probably a bit more et triple chop takes 1,50 seconds.
A difference of ten percent will be pretty invisible to notice, even in DPS output.
I’ll never put 30 points in Arms for this useless junk and I admit I’m kind of surprised by the people who are convinced that this new trait is going to make us warrior stick to only one weapon set.

But then again maybe there’s some other new trait I haven’t heard about and which is good ?

Do you know how to calculate DPS? I think you must not, because otherwise you would know how amazing a 10% DPS increase trait is. Unless you can show DPS calculations that demonstrate otherwise, my numbers 30/30/0/10/0 is about 10-14% better sustained DPS than 30/25/0/0/15. And the 20/30/0/20/0 EA build is about 13% better than then the current 30/10/0/20/10 EA build.

The difference between 11,000 DPS and 12,100 DPS is the difference between lower tier Ranger/Necro DPS and top tier Thief/Ele DPS. This is distinctly non-trivial amount for min/maxers.

Purple Miku.7032:

Tree.3916:

Simply put, it’s another degree harder to learn to solo him off the wall. Learn to solo him off the wall first and you’ll be a better player for it.

While I agree with this, I feel the need to mention that for whatever reason I seem to lag slightly more during his rapid fire attack, which is pretty obnoxious. By lag, I mean whirlwind delaying sometimes ~0.5s more and taking a tick of damage.

Also, with horrible RNG it’s very possible that you might have no choice but to eviscarate, depending on how soon he decides to use one of his attacks that requires either whirlwind/block or a double evasion. Usually it can be avoided with just swiftness to close the gap, but not 100% of the time if he’s using them long before cooldowns are up even when you aren’t wasting anything.

Example:
Life drink immediately followed by Life suck, immediately followed by the rapid fire, immediately followed by another Life drink.

Losing 15% damage output = meh.

Well, that’s the test, right? Fighting Lupi on the wall in order to push times is a test of discipline in your dps rotations, which is a particular skillset. Fighting Lupi off the wall is a test of your resource management abilities, and a different skillset.

The very fact that you can be pushed so hard by the RNG of his attacks that you HAVE to Eviscerate to survive is what makes it challenging and interesting. As impressive as Goku’s ridiculously fast wall solos are, his sub 5 minute solo fighting Lupi off the wall is by far the most impressive.

pdavis.8031:

What are some valid and well thought out arguments as to why Valk, or any other build for warrior, doesn’t work and zerker is the only way to go."

Reason #1

Damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage + 0.5) )

There is no reason #2

So far I’ve seen a lot of “zerk is the best, and if you don’t run zerk you are not playing to your full potential” type responses, but very little as to WHY a valk build doesn’t work.

Because it does measurably less damage in return for survivability you don’t need.

So why is it wrong to run that if it suits my play style and can be used effectively in many situations?

How does your playstyle differ? Do your weapons kill the bosses in the dungeons by some different means than everyone else’s? Does your dodge button / endurance bar have a differing functionality from everyone else?

There are other options for PvE than zerk

Sure you can run full clerics if you want. You could run a Rampagers build if you want. But don’t pretend that all options are equally optimal.