Guild Wars 2

Faerun.3091:

Do you really think that those pathetic number of all bosses in dungeons + open world PvE is going to prove that CC is viable? And to go even further, 1 interrupt and then I have to waste 5 skills to get off the defiant stack? Not to mention some bosses even when interrupted has so low CD on their abilities it doesn’t make it worth while….
Control in PvE is pretty lacking, trying to prove it otherwise will take some convicing.

What’s the particular number of bosses we have to cite for you to realize you’re wrong and quite ignorant about a lot of the more advanced tactics in the game?

Sirendor.1394:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Bro. Pls. Watch the cleric group versus lupi with dodge unbound. Content is designed in a way that everyone can complete. It doesn’t matter how much you argue this. No one is being a zombie. It’s the cold hard facts. I can complete any dungeon with a group of Settlers. I can complete it quicker with berserkers, but the berserkers MUST know how to dodge else it will take forever due to wiping. Risk/reward. This is a problem because the dungeons are static while we’ve all been playing then for 1.5 years so we know how to run them. New players struggle still. Please learn to logic.

Fixed that for you:

Bro. Pls. Watch the zerker group versus queen spider with no dodging required. Content is designed in a way that everyone can complete it by stacking and dpsing. It doesn’t matter how much you argue this. No one is being more a zombie than you. It’s the cold hard facts. I can complete any dungeon with a group of Berserkers. I can complete it slower with other stats, but the berserkers MUST know how to stack else it will take forever due to falling asleep. No risk/huge reward. This is a problem because the dungeons are bad design while we’ve all been stacking them for 1.5 years so we know how to stack. New players struggle still. Please learn to logic.

SEE WHAT I DID THERE?

Mine makes more sense than yours.

How hard, exactly, should the first boss of the first dungeon be?

Sirendor.1394:

Dungeons should involve strategy, puzzles and not a little teamwork. Those are at the moment non-existent.

Strategy: While I would like dungeons to be a bit less linear (like FoW or DOA) it’s hard to say that no strategy is required. If it wasn’t for dungeon guilds publishing guides and speed clear strategies most pugs would be (if they weren’t still) running around like headless chickens with no clue what to do. Don’t confused problems that are currently solved with being problems that never existed.

Puzzles: Puzzles are literally the worst part of every dungeon. There are a few reasons TA Aetherpath isn’t done very often, and the amount of puzzles is a lot of it. Lengthy puzzle sections are interesting the first time or two you do a dungeon. by the 25th time through, after they are thoroughly solved, they begin to resemble incredibly annoying time gates.

Teamwork: Please refer to the strategy comment. There is a vast difference in doing a dungeon like Caudecus Manor with a Guardian who knows when to use his reflects and a thief who knows when to stealth, and doing it with an uncoordinated team. In fact, the difference is so vast, I cannot reckon how someone could fail to see the difference unless they have never done the dungeon. Which doesn’t surprise me, since 99% of “Dungeon BHB QQ Threads” are written from the perspective of people who only do AC.

Aristocrat runes >>>>>>>>>>>> krait runes.

Thank heavens some made a good condition damage build and was nice enough to post it on these forums.

Talking about Dekeyz, not this.

edit flood control:

I could of just posted the best build anyone ever saw. And you would still make a similar remark. Nothing you have to say as usual has any merit.

Your build uses useless defensive traits and abilities and stats. Our condi build piles on more offense. Ours is better. Pretty straightforward and self-evident.

Dub.1273:

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

Guang, Spoj, and Dub who all contributed theorycraft to the build.

Plsno.

Youre in too deep, can’t run now.

You find the need for Dogged March a lot in PvE? Or Cleansing Ire?

If this is a troll, good job?

The theoretical maximum dps 6/5/0/0/3 solo against a test dummy is around 7xxx dps. The theoretical maximum condition damage a 2/6/0/0/6 warrior with koi cakes, aristocracy runes and master tuning crystals is 6,768 dps. That does not take into account the direct damage which is probably around 1k per second, though I haven’t calculated that precisely.

This is why for long solos I expect condi builds will have kill times very very close, if not better, than berserker.

Some issues…

1. Only like three professions have viable pve condi builds (warrior, necro, engineer)
2. even in mediocre pugs your bleeding and burning will get overwritten which wrecks your DPS.
3. Some bosses would suck to solo on condi (alphard)

But yes, condi warrior is pretty fun and OP for pve solos.

EA Build Axe: 4/6/0/4/0
EA Build GS: 6/4/0/4/0

This is the only real change.

As far as sigils go, after Force the next best is Frailty, unless you’re in a group that keeps bosses at 25 vuln the entire fight.

This is one of those head-scratching changes where dev silence is like poison to the community. 99% of dungeon runners, if polled, would likely not be a fan of this nerf which begs the question: why do it then?

I understand, from a game design standpoint, that you can’t just do the popular thing. If put to a vote 99% of the population would want a free precursor too, but we understand that is a bad idea rationally.

This is a bit less obviously bad than free precursors. This is simply a min/max thing that encourages good gameplay and good gearing of toons. Those are traits that should be encouraged. The only plausible argument in favor of the nerf is to reduce the game’s complexity.

So we have a situation with the following…

1. Most of the community disagrees with the situation.
2. No rational reason for the nerf exists that demonstrates a clear justification.

Like other topics that have gone unaddressed by devs, I have long contended that when issues aren’t addressed head on it leaves the door open for speculation and speculation on the internet inevitably leads to conspiracy theories which leads to people becoming angry.

While no doubt every player group in the game would like dev responses to their questions, I think this change especially warrants a response. A simple one paragraph answer from the devs explaining their rationale for the change would be more than sufficient to put the issue to bed. We may not be happy to the nerf even after it is explained, but at very least we will understand the reasons why, and idle speculation will come to an end.

Darox.8069:

What this game needs is an open editor, like Skyrim.

Or a dedicated dungeon content team who would put out a new dungeon with 3 paths every 6 months or so.

Doing HotWp1 and CoE1/3 but not doing Arah p1 is a big fail in terms of gold/hour. Even a 20 minute Arah p1 is more lucrative.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Jaya Voska ’ s looks change with the tide.

she is a fashionista, and changes her hair once a week and her dyes all the time.

Did you draw this yourself?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why do you always capitalize NIKE’s name? Is it like a YAHWEH thing?

There is no other way to properly emote his jealousy.

Warlord.9074

I don’t envy people I dislike.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Exhibit A.

Lindbur.2537:

Are you Nike, or Dankies? I have a hard time telling who’s who. :o

Depends if it’s nike or dankies posting. It’s rarely both of us, and it’s never neither of us.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137

I have been playing my Thief in dungeons a lot lately myself in organized guild groups and the only time they have better DPS is when the boss is below 25% and they can go into heartseeker mode to get 40-50k damage in about 3 seconds. Below 50% the auto-attacks are comparable to an axe warrior, perhaps a bit less. Above 50% the warrior is significantly better.

I’m not anti-Thief, I just think that under perfectly ideal circumstances the DPS is similar. However, the loss of party-wide utility makes a Thief seem undesireable. If a Thief had overall strictly superior dps, I would argue for bringing one but tbh, switching one of three warriors to a thief is an overall party downgrade.

This was in reference to someone saying a thief should replace a warrior in the traditional 4w/1m CoFp1 party comp.

Oddly enough, while there were some cringeworthy posts from long ago, there were also some posts that were heretical at the time which could very easily be just as accurately said today such as…

nike

On topic, Scholar runes clearly offer the highest potential DPS but let’s be real: the average player in this game complained about the Daily Dodger Events because dodging isn’t something they are comfortable with. I’m not sure it’s realistic for people to run out and buy Scholar Runes that being the case.

In reference to Haviz suggesting Scholar Runes were better than Ruby Orbs.

and

Nike

1. Go to wikipedia.
2. Search for “market equilibrium.”
That should clear up about 75% of the conspiracy theory threads on this forum.

In reference to a trading post conspiracy theory thread around launch.

deSade.9437:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

deSade.9437:

Pff Lilith plz. I’m a scrub.

I’d disagree but your lack of emails disturbs me.

Ikr, I’m a buttface. I was just doing random stuffs in game and in the garden. The plants are ready! Now just gotta wait…

Wethospu.6437:

I had Soldier Runes when I first soloed lupi. Next day I bought Scholars even when certain individual said Ruby Orbs are better.

GIVE US THE NAME

It rhymes with “Strife”

Oh wait it is Strife

xxHellBladexx.9163:

The reason I’m asking this is because I thought this game was more “play what you want” then “play whats the best”.

The problem is when delusional people believe that playing whatever bad build they dreamed up is the exact same as playing the most optimal build.

A few months ago I did Arah 1-3 on my condition damage full Rabid warrior and nobody in my guild group even noticed. Why? Because in a high dps organized group where everyone knows what they are doing, having one character play a medium dps build can blend into the background and be tough to notice.

However, in a disorganized group with people who have bad builds and aren’t playing well, having a low dps party member who isn’t contributing a great deal is a big problem.

As far as dungeons go, ironically, the harder the dungeon the better condition damage is. In Ascalonian Catacombs the bosses die so quickly that you would barely have time to get any conditions applied to them before they are dead. In Arah, where the bosses have significantly more health and take longer to kill condition damage can actually ramp up and be a bit more useful. But you should note, even the most maxed out condition damage build is outclassed by direct damage in terms of potential.

I feel some miscommunication here :/ I think what mike is trying to say is, be nicer to other people that don’t think the same thing as you. Just because they are using an inferior build does not give you the right to say mean things. Be more tactful and thoughtful in your case when presenting your evidence as to why the build you advocate is better than the inferior build.

Edit
tl;dr; Golden rule y’all.

VideoGamermike.5813:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

The game isn’t antisocial, a part of its community is.

I kind of didn’t want to say it but…well, I certainly didn’t help things a few days ago but yah…theres a group that seems to want to farm as much gold as fast as possible over enjoying the game and making friends. I would happily add 2 weeks to my legendary farming if it got me good friends.

News flash: you’re still not helping when you make ignorant sounding comments implying that speed running is mutually exclusive to enjoying the game or making friends.

Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten.

Emanuel.9781:

tips top hat

What a small world we live in I went to school with this kid. No joke. Never thought I would see him again let alone in a GW2 forum.

Edit due to flood control

Emanuel.9781:

Tree.3916:

Emanuel.9781:

tips top hat

What a small world we live in I went to school with this kid. No joke. Never thought I would see him again let alone in a GW2 forum.

Are you f->king serious now.

Serious as a heart attack. We had a nickname for him. “Captain Ahab” lol.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Zaoda.1653:

Thank goodness I’m not a people person then. It’s why I have all my chat boxes unticked, so I don’t have to hear the constant homophobic, racist, sexist, and snide comments I hear on a daily basis. #antisocialftw

I do it to avoid the anti right wing, anti capitalism, anti rationalism, political correctness run amok BS.

No wait thats the Western media in real life. Come to think of it, do Anet’s servers run on a environmentally responsible server company using solar energy? Maybe a company rep can confirm this with us. Certain quarters may demand this accountability from a successful gaming company.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you King Fedora. Long may he reign.

You have to swap on cool down if you want to proc it every 9 seconds.

Warlord.9074:

I think the pure GS that uses 10 in tactics is based on you receiving a lot of boons from other party members to boost your damage. If your not getting alot of boons besides your own its not neraly that much of a DPS increase. If that isn’t the case than the 30/25/0/0/15 is the better build for pugs.

The 10 Tactics builds only require 3 boons (which a single warrior can provide to him or herself) to be better than alternatives. Even in a situation where you can’t keep 3 boons up 6/6/0/0/2 is still technically better dps than 6/5/0/0/3.

The main advantage of 6/5 is Fast Hands and the interaction of that and ‘on swap’ sigils. If you aren’t using fast hands to proc either sigil of energy or battle then there is really no point to doing it. The 6/5 build gets its best DPS when it camps greatsword, and if you are going to camp greatsword you might as well run a 6/6 build for better dps. Thus, the only reason to run 6/5 is distinctly for non-DPS considerations, like energy sigil survivability on difficult solo’s.

HAHAHA that would be gold

Forward / Up is no longer in the game. This friend will have to do the Aether path to complete TA dungeon master.

Why do people even bring up WvW in the dungeon forums? Talk about comparing apples to dinosaurs…

Haven’t heard from Azurell in a while :/

Post redacted………

Maybe you can’t distinguish 17oz vs 18oz, but I can.

You have a two empty glasses. You begin filling them at the same time. At the end of 30 seconds one glass has 54oz, other has 51oz. which glass filled with more water per second? And how much was the difference in rate? Assuming the glasses held 54 ounces, which one would fill first? How much faster would the one who filled first have been filled?

KIIIL.1860:

checked. When you group elemetalistami whether two guardians without this build – still worse when you are alone in this build warrior. then the entire fight, Always hold the might 25 stacks – it’s big speed fo the dps! )

I have no idea what language this is. can you please rephrase this in English so I can tell whether you’re agreeing with me or not?

P.S. to everyone else If you aren’t using Strength Runes in a PS build you’re doing it wrong.

sinzer.4018

If you’re running PS your party’s doing it wrong anyway, mate.

Reference my first post in this thread where I already made that point.

me

Also, if this is for “professional runs” why would anyone want Phalanx Strength when they have elementalists in their party already? Phalanx Strength is a trait for pug groups, not professional runs.

Remember way back when you showed that DWA hit 54 times and the non-DWA hit 51?

Those were the good old days. The days of yore when it was easy to divide 51/54 and figure out what the increased attack rate was. Long before Warlord had to resort to ever more arcane and cherry-picked tests to “prove” his conclusions. Can’t we go back to those days?

Alas, the caribou have left this place, and so must we. It was a losing battle from the start. But we will always have the good times, like when we all agreed that Warlord needs to increase the doses of his medications. Good times. Good times.

1. So how much time is it from the first hit of the auto attack to the first hit of the auto attack of the next chain with and without DWA?

2. What % increase in overall attack rate is DWA?

3. Explain some way how that does not correlate to damage over time, if that is your contention.

If your contention is that it is a 6-8% IAR, and it correlates to a 6-8% dps increase, congratulations, we all agree and your puffery was completely wasted.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Tree.3916:

Most people who think the axe warrior build is boring probably haven’t played it. Doing the proper rotation is a bit more challenging than the gs+axe build and it’s significantly more active, especially the EA build that Eviscerates as part of the rotation.

I feel like I’m surrounded by crybaby carebear casuals. “waaaa I wanna use my twilight waaaaa I don’t care if its 10% less dps” is no different than “waaaa I like my celestial gear because I play how I want.”

Well atleast there was some weapon swapping there. How do you feel about GS-camping being the best DPS option now? As boring as only-axe in my opinion.

You can run whatever you want really. The best dps build is only about 400 dps ahead of the least dps of viable builds. The gap of 3% is pretty marginal either way, and is 100% affected by DPS rotations. Not all builds will be able to keep perfect rotations as easily.

GS camping has obvious upsides in that it is the easiest rotation to maintain of all: spam skills on cool down and you dont have to worry about interrupting autos. But it has drawbacks as well, such as being dependent on WWA to achieve its dps superiority. WWA has severe drawbacks, but huge upsides.

Pure axe has a more complicated chain, you have more cool downs to manage and you have to avoid interrupting your auto chain. It has low initial burst damage but has very high consistent sustained damage. On one hand the dps rotation is difficult to perfect because it has a lot of parts to manage, but on the other hand in many cases it’s easier to maintain than others since you aren’t rooted by your best dps skills and you aren’t dependent on the boss being against a wall or having a large hit box to keep your DPS high.

GS+Axe is interesting because you can tailor your rotation to suit your goal. If you camp GS with a 6/5/0/0/3 build you will do nearly as much DPS as a pure GS build if you just want to max DPS. Alternatively, the tried and true swap on cool down rotation we have all used for a year and a half is the best way to maximize Vulnerability of the three major options. So much like you’d expect, a build with fast hands sacrifices some DPS to achieve versatility.

Traits: 0/6/0/6/2 has 3% higher DPS and the same skill rotation, not even counting the free bugged signet you current get, which makes it something like 7% higher DPS.

Also, if this is for “professional runs” why would anyone want Phalanx Strength when they have elementalists in their party already? Phalanx Strength is a trait for pug groups, not professional runs.

Lastly, you want Strength Runes for this build no question.

No one, not a single person, has argued that DWA affects aftercasts. You keep repeating that like we deny it, and you keep repeating it like it proves some major point.

It does not. The fact is, that by any measurable criteria, a DWA build will kill a mob faster than the same build without DWA. The amount of that increase is, as we discussed already weeks ago before you started this thread, between 6-8%. Whether you think 6-8% is “no good” is a subjective thing, it doesn’t change the actual functionality. Would it be better of it was actually 10%? Ofcourse, does that change that it is a DPS increase, albeit small than advertised on the tool tip? No, it doesn’t.

If you’re trying to prove a point that the dps gain is less than 6-8%, I believe enough evidence has been presented to show you why that isn’t accurate and it would be best for you to concede that point, if indeed that is what you are arguing.

Edit due to flood control: I see you concede defeat, albeit a qualified defeat. By any metric it is at least 6%. Saying “maybe 5%” is making up numbers when we already know they are not true. But it is big of you to admit -somewhat- that you’re wrong.

Not sure what you feel the need to mention Nike for, since he was one of the people who determined it was 6% dps boost long before you made this thread. Forgive me for engaging in amateur psychoanalysis, but when you mention some person unrelated to this discussion it makes you seem a bit jealous and makes you look like a BHB. It’s sad that you are so threatened by Nike, I can only imagine how threatened you are by superior players like Goku, Wethospu, Haviz, or Dub. Especially considering how many of them have posted in this thread and made you look foolish.

Warlord.9074:

Wethospu.6437:

If you time from start of the attack to the last hit you will ignore the last aftercast.

Do you honestly think you are the first one to test these things? When everyone else gets different results than you do you should seriously consider your own testing methods.

Not really the first person to test things. Just the only person in this thread independently testing something without using data that I borrowed from someone else perhaps? Do you beleive everything you read? I don’t. Do you trust everything you hear I don’t. Maybe the reason all of you are in agreement is becasue you borrowed your data all from the same source? I think so…

You’re late to the party again. This was already extensively tested. Frifox demonstrated that DWA reduces the axe auto chain from 3.56 to 3.28. This is verified and settled.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dual-Wield-Agility-not-really-10

Since most of us are capable of figuring out 3.28/3.56 this issue was settled long ago. You’re using the shakiest data ever to support a conclusion that has no basis in reality. In fact, you haven’t actually stated what your conclusion is. The only solid thing you have shown is that DWA gets approximate 54 hits in 30 seconds and approximately 51 without it. Since this more or less confirms what we already knew, how it manages to demonstrate an original conclusion is beyond me.

What is the kill time disparity between two identical builds, one with DWA and one without, that hit for 100 per swing against a 10k hp mob? Since you refused to answer it, I will. It will require 100 hits. The DWA build will make its 100th hit at approximately 54.6 seconds. The non DWA build will make its 100th hit at approximately 59.3 seconds. I do not require advanced arithmetic to determine what that dps increase is.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Wethospu.6437:

With those rules this topic would have got immediately deleted.

Not really, he did provide a video. People usually accuse their forums of being too strict, and that being so strict stops meaningful discussion. Obviously that is incorrect, but I think watching the video in the OP has merit. It brings up a good point about the calculation of casting speed vs flat attack speed. This trait affects the casting speed, but that seems to be it based on the video.

The OP “proved” it is a 6-8% dps increase over 30 seconds. We have shown that it works out to be a 6-8% dps increase over virtually any given time frame. We have also shown that when you restructure the metric from a set time frame to mob kill time, it would still be 6-8%.

Our argument, that it’s a 6-8% dps increase, is remarkably consistent no matter which way to try to splice it.

To be honest, I am not sure what Warlord is arguing. Every example he has made to “prove” it is less than 6-8% dps increase has been mathematically incorrect and contrary to any consistent logic.

Here is the final test.

Step 1. Imagine a test dummy with 10,000 hit points. The axe auto chain hits for 100 (10,20,20,50 for each individual stop of the axe chain) hit points per chain. One build has DWA, one does not, but they both his the same 100 per rotation. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA build will kill it 6-8% faster. You tell me.

Step 2. Imagine a test dummy with 100 hit points. Our axe auto hits for the exact same 100 as in step 1. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA will kill it about 6-8% faster. I’ll wait.

We finally found something Guang and Dub can agree on.

I think it’s pretty clear that when Dub, Guang, Weth and Haviz think you’re completely wrong, and you think you’re completely right, that you may need to stop and re-evaluate.

I didn’t read any of the comments since this thread has been duplicated many times but I like how the OP knows what skillful play is, yet doesn’t understand the finer points of stacking and game mechanics let alone their own class mechanics.

Here is an example of skillful play when the players understand all the mechanics of a dungeon and their class (and probably the other classes in the group as well). http://gwscr.com/

Xae Isareth.1364:

Waldir.2571:

So… Changing subject away from this fight… I saw a warrior get kicked last nigh for using gs, when I asked why he was kicked the leader told me because he wasn’t running Nikes build, I wonder how that jerk feels today.

Its quite saddening when things like that happen. People are just following others like sheep, not testing it out, not looking for answers themselves. I bet if Nike said tommorow that mace-shield is the new DPS build people will just blindly follow that as well.

If that’s true it’s just sad. At very least the guy is a jerk since I am 100% sure he didn’t put “must run _ build” in the LFG description.

Now if the guy had been wearing Ruby Orbs, maybe he would have deserved it. huehuehue

Warlord.9074:

Tree.3916:

edit: you weren’t around when strife created the 20/25/0/10/15 original gs+axe build, but I was.

Strife didn’t create that build though and nike didn’t create the 30/25 build either. Being an advocate for a build is one thing creating is another thing, You cant compare the two builds. One build is based on Berserkers power and heightened focus being a 10 point investment. The other is post nerf based on nerfed /buffed zerkers power in the 30 point posistion. Its not even a fair comparison they are builds based on what was availible at the time.

Strife most certainly came up with the gs+axe/mace build, even if the traits were no brainers. Before he did it, people played pure axe or pure gs. Dispute that if you want, but I don’t particularly care if you don’t agree. I don’t think Nike claims to have invented the 30/25 build, but if you can find a quote saying otherwise go for it.

And don’t assume I have not been around. I have been around since BWE and Id be willing to wager I have more time logged on my warrior than anyone you know.

I don’t care if you have 6k hours on your warrior, doesn’t mean you’re the least bit good at the game. If you want to impress me, you won’t do it by quoting hours played. If you weren’t trying to impress me, why did you bring up your playtime?

As you refer to something as being “significantly” different better or what have you is far fetched to say the least. A better word for what you consider “significantly” half the time is minute as in fractionally tiny or in some cases non existent outside of a vacuum chamber.

10% is significant to me. Especially when we are splitting ever finer hairs and build refinement gets more precise. Heck, 5% is significant to me. If you want to have a semantic debate over the use of the term “significant” then you might as well stop arguing, because you’re going down the sad road of someone who has nothing to dispute but semantics.

Warlord.9074:

Ya thats why I thik NIKE was right the 1st time with the 6/5/0/0/15

GS/AXE-MACE becasue in those situations where you cannont land 100 blades or WWA it is better to weapon swap and use axe.

Trust me I understand peoples desire to change the meta a really do. Its stale and we got a few new traits and runes and sigils as well as a crit damage nerf. So people want to explore and see if they can come up with somthing better.

The thing is this debate is very old. What do you think we were debating before we settled on 30/25/0/0/15 We debated the same thing. So why are we debating it again just for the sake of change?

Honestly if somthing is not broken there is no need to fix it. None of the changes we got other that runes, sigils and a crit damage nerf changed warriors. None of the master traits beside Phalanx strength opened any new viable builds.

Except 30/25 is significantly worse dps than either pure option now. DWA puts pure axe ahead, and the second dps sigil in GS puts pure gs ahead because it makes the benefits of swapping to axe after the gs burst a less valuable proposition.

If you think the extra utility of Fast Hands is worth 10% dps compared to pure GS or 6% vs Pure Axe, then by all means run it. Just don’t be confused about what you’re giving up for it.

edit: you weren’t around when strife created the 20/25/0/10/15 original gs+axe build, but I was. Strife assumed it was better dps than pure greatsword or pure axe. Strife didn’t have accurate dps calculations, he didn’t do accurate video analysis to inform his non-existent dps calculations. He went with his gut. He was close, but not quit. Pure GS was actually better dps then, too, but the difference was a bit less than it is now. So back then the utility of fast hands didnt require as much of a sacrifice. But make no mistake, the dps of pure gs was better then too, but no one then had today’s sophisticated methods of testing to even challenge it at the time, we just sorta listened to Strife.

Well now we can record dps rotations and plug the coefficients into a calculator and get 100% accurate dps measurements. There is no need to wonder about it or speculate. I can tell you with 99.9% certainty what build has better dps than another. The only thing that is subjective at this point is whether or not you want to trade away a higher dps build for a lower dps one that has extra utility. And that’s a personal call based on whatever content you’re doing.

Warlord.9074:

I saw this too and I believe the math is correct but the assumptions the math based on are not. Just like the math was correct about DWA but the assumptions based on the math were wrong. They didn’t take into account of aftercast mainly and a 10% aspd bonus is not enough to overcome aftercast quickly. Where it only becomes better DPS given time to overcome aftercast. Which in practical use doesn’t happen often enough to justify using the trait.
As you can see the hits are faster but the time in between hits are not faster.

The reason I disagree with the data is mainly for the solo warrior but also under other circumstances where 10% of your DPS relies on bleeding to be on the mob. Warrior has a trait that will proc bleeding on crit but from my testing it is unreliable. So no all of your hits will always be modified by 10%

I also don’t see much point to go 30 into arms for a pure GS build other than the 50 precision and the 40 precision per signet. Doing so is under the assumption that you do not reach 100% crit chance with fury which I think that assumption is incorrect.

A lot of these math equations do not take RNG into account for example you may have 95 Crit chance or 100 crit chance in a small sample size the DPS will be no differ because the chance of a non crit getting through is extremely low. Low enough that it doesn’t make a huge difference.

This was already settled in the dungeon forums with video evidence. You’re late to the party again. No one posts legit theorycraft in profession forums because it attracts know-nothings.

What I want to see is if what he calculated assumes WWA against a wall.

It was calculated off the wall, refer to the thread in dungeon forums where the rotation was shown. Against the wall it works out to be about the same since you lose bladetrail but you get faster WWAs. It’s mostly a wash.

Whereas with an axe, pulling off constant rotations is a lot easier because its a lot more flexible and your main DPS skill isn’t an easily-interrupted attack on a CD.
So I’m still sticking with my old philosophy that GS is great for slow-paced (or really easy) fights with high need for burst potential and axe is great for everything else.
Calculating actual DPS in this game is really not as straightforward as say, WoW or TSW, because in those games, as a DPS I can pull of solid rotations constantly, whereas in this game you really can’t sometimes.

As he said in the comments of his video, “play whichever weaponset you can pull off the cleanest rotations with.” The dps difference is like 400 dps out of a total like 13,000. That’s a small difference. You should play whatever weaponset works for you on a per encounter basis. Respeccing is free.

ICEing, probably don’t need to hyperbolize the thread title/OP it attracts trolls and try-hards.

Warlord.9074:

Tree.3916:

Warlord.9074:

Not trolling the difference between me and other is i tested it and made a video to prove it. while other just read something on a forum and or did a pen and paper math calculation and believed it. They trust whatever NIKE says on the other forum.

Nike is a lot smarter than you, though. You’ll have to trust me on that one. And he did test it. And he did provide video. You just aren’t looking in the right places where intelligent conversation happens. And he did conclude it’s a 7.3% dps increase for auto attacks and 8.2% for a real rotation.

So again, you’re late to the party. Also again, congrats on verifying the conclusions the dungeon community figured out 30 minutes after the patch came out.

The whole point is it takes more time for DWA to show real world increases. So under less time no real world increases happen.

In 9 seconds a 7.2% dps modifier would show roughly similar dps increases. What you miss is that you can, in fact, measure the extra hits.

For example, let’s take a 9 second window per your example.

The normal axe auto attack takes 3.6 seconds to channel. You would get 2 full chains off and then a chop and a double chop.

The DWA axe auto takes 3.24 seconds. You would get two full chain and then the first hit of triple chop. UH OH.

In 9 seconds the non-DWA build does 13.5 coefficients. The DWA build does 14.2.

13.5/14.2 = 5%. So even in your tiny 9 second sample it has a 5% advantage in dps. Since it caps out at about 8.2% it really doesn’t take long to ramp up to that.

See ya.

Yea well my video proves that is not true. Count the hits. You don’t get an extra hit until 10s. So that makes me smarter than u and nike. You are not listening because you cant admit that the game doesnt work the same as pen and paper. ANd in a 9 sec window both builds do the same number of hits. Other than a Boss any mob dies in under this. That makes this trait only a small DPS increase for boss fights when you attack longer than 9 secs on AA chain at any given time. If for any reason u use any other skill or stop the trait doesnt amount to a DPS increase because of the time wasted while performing other actions.

in 9 secs both builds do 17 hits. Between 9-10 seconds or at 10 seconds DWA will land the 18th the final tripple chop slightly faster and then land chop. However both builds can land 3 full axe chains in 10s.

As far as intelligent conversations there is none here because its easier for you to not admit you are wrong. I am not the one that has the burdon of proof its those who make the claims that something is better to prove.

Fact is both builds can land the final tripple chop in 10s with the DWA landing the final one slightly faster. Then is able to land chop faster than the other build.

Basically you are arguing that DWA lands chop faster in 10secs. And calling that a 10% DPS increase. Which clearly using a small sample of 10 secs a single chop does not amount to even a 7% increase It maybe a 1-2% increase and that is only if the sample size is 10secs not less than that.

You are most certainly wrong. DWA, at 9 seconds exactly, gets an extra hit. At 9.5 it doesn’t. But you didn’t say 9.5. You said 9 seconds. Sorry to tell you that.

Heck, it gets an extra hit at 3.25 seconds. At 3.25 seconds its 5% ahead on dps already. Is it any wonder why you are not understanding this? You don’t seem to understand that if you arbitrarily stop at the clock at some specific times you can cherry pick the results you want.

So far in this thread you picked 30 seconds and 9 seconds. I showed it is a significant dps increase for both those windows. But hey, keep cherry picking time frames and you might actually find one that supports your thesis. Maybe.

If I were you though, I would work on understanding the game and game mechanics than being concerned about who you’re smarter than or not, as the case is.

Warlord.9074:

Not trolling the difference between me and other is i tested it and made a video to prove it. while other just read something on a forum and or did a pen and paper math calculation and believed it. They trust whatever NIKE says on the other forum.

Nike is a lot smarter than you, though. You’ll have to trust me on that one. And he did test it. And he did provide video. You just aren’t looking in the right places where intelligent conversation happens. And he did conclude it’s a 7.3% dps increase for auto attacks and 8.2% for a real rotation.

So again, you’re late to the party. Also again, congrats on verifying the conclusions the dungeon community figured out 30 minutes after the patch came out.

The whole point is it takes more time for DWA to show real world increases. So under less time no real world increases happen.

In 9 seconds a 7.2% dps modifier would show roughly similar dps increases. What you miss is that you can, in fact, measure the extra hits.

For example, let’s take a 9 second window per your example.

The normal axe auto attack takes 3.6 seconds to channel. You would get 2 full chains off and then a chop and a double chop.

The DWA axe auto takes 3.24 seconds. You would get two full chain and then the first hit of triple chop. UH OH.

In 9 seconds the non-DWA build does 13.5 coefficients. The DWA build does 14.2.

1 – (13.5/14.2) = 5%. So even in your tiny 9 second sample it has a 5% advantage in dps. Since it caps out at about 8.2% it really doesn’t take long to ramp up to that.

See ya.

Lampshade.7569:

So, people who argue against DWA argument with videos, people for DWA argument with math. Obvious fail is obvious.

I use both actually.

“Only 3 hits” still represents a coefficient of 2.9 extra for the 30 seconds. Let’s split the difference and say 2.5.

A 30/30 Axe build with full party buffs will make around (depending on the cleanliness of your dps rotation) 11,900 DPS. Over 30 seconds it will make about 357,000 damage. The “three extra hits” are worth 25,966 damage.

This works out to be a DPS increase of about 7.3%. This is incidentally, the amount I indicated earlier (8.2% using real DPS rotations and not just auto attacks) and pretty confirms what everyone has been saying for about two weeks now. So you see, when I said you were late to the party, well, you’re late to the party.

Congrats on proving it’s the exact dps increase we knew it was 10 days ago, though.