Guild Wars 2

Laraley.7695:

I agree mesmers deserved some buffs, but what happened is the fact they got overbuffed. There’s no counterplay to stealth burst, the stun, blind…On the other hand there is a counterplay to lich.

I agree that it is not easy to react to stealth shatter, but you still can react to it. Also just killing the clones with AoE or hitting the Mesmer while in stealth with AoE or PAoE is still a viable option. The burst damage is high, but so is any other damage right now in the game. The blind from Blinding Dissipation only works PAoE and I believe the effect through evades is a bug. I agree that the stuns need be toned down a bit. And allowing only dazes to turn into stuns on interrupts seems more than reasonable to me.

Confounding Suggestions
Currently this trait alone can lock down targets, even if they initially weren’t doing anything to begin with. This gives too much power and control to builds that should be reactionary and highly skillful in nature. Therefor I suggest a daze should only be converted to a stun, when the target was actually interrupted.
I have seen suggestions to increase the ICD to 10s. I would recommend against that. Requiring an additional condition for the stun application might already change a lot and still allow us to punish skill spamming.

Blinding Dissipation
I hear this trait works through evades… that should not happen. Nothing, absolutely nothing should go through evades imo. But I guess this is a bug atm.

Mistrust
This trait feels week atm. But I actually barely use it. So I do not have actually a suggestion here. Just wanted to mention it^^

Chaotic Dampening
The nerf to 2% was uncalled for. Even with the Protection effect the trait is in its weakest state since release of GW2. I suggest a percentage of 3-4%. Currently I personally, no matter if I use staff or not, do not feel this trait is worth taking.

Prismatic Understanding
Not saying anything about it. There are threads about this trait. Ppl know my opinion on it, I guess^^

Bountiful Disillusionment
Is any1 using this trait? The stability on it sounds interesting and might be cool for WvW zerg fights. But even then I’d prefer CI or PU over this one. Maybe some variation of boon share build might use it.

Persistence of Memory
2% feels too weak and not really notable. I might be ignorant to it’s effects, but I’d increase it to 5% or smth along those lines.

Maim the Disillusioned
Yeah… having to deal with insta 5 stacks of burning and things along those lines, I don’t see a reason why not to tune it back up to 2 stacks of torment. Maybe reduce duration of torment, if it really should be too potent. But I don’t believe it would be too strong. A max of 8 stacks of torment, if all illusions and I myself connected, doesn’t sound like too much.

Ineptitude
One stack of confusion feels too weak. I personally don’t feel a difference in offensive power between taking and not taking this trait.

Mesmer main here too:

My 5 cents to your points:

1. Confounding Suggestions
   It is a very strong trait. But I agree that the stun effect should only apply, when you actually interrupted a target with a daze ability. This alone, I think, would make a big difference between spamming dazes and actually utilizing them skillfully. An ICD would on the other hand cripple the Mesmer’s ability to seriously punish skill spamming.
2. Master Fencer
   Not sure if that trait really is so much of an issue. But if so, increasing the ICD might be a possible approach.
3. Prismatic Understanding
   Very strong trait. Personally I find it too strong. However, one should be careful with nerfing this trait, because it has offensive and defensive qualities. And taking one quality away, might take the other away too and make the trait in the end useless. I would suggest that as a general principle Phantasm should cause reveal on the Mesmer, if he is in stealth. This way the chance to sit in stealth while you still can do damage is severely reduced.
4. Blinding Dissipation
   Agreed. Nothing should go though evades. Absolutely nothing at all.
5. Harmonious Mantras
   Nerfing this trait is the wrong approach imo. It should be buffed for non-power builds even to make it a more attractive option all over the spectrum. There are still too many Mesmer taking Deceptive Evasion for my taste.
6. The whole Inspiration line
   Don’t see a problem with this trait line yet.

Exciton.8942:

TyPin.9860:

Exciton.8942:

The only thing that looks too strong at the moment for me is confounding suggestions which provide a bit too many stuns. You don’t even need to interrupt to lock down others.

Even PU nerf or not is debatable since it’s mainly a defensive trait.

How about:

Confounding Suggestions
When you interrupt a target with a daze, stun it instead.

I also thought about that. But doesn’t it make it too similar to CI? Remember CI is GM trait. This one is only an adept.

What kind of trait it is doesn’t matter any more. The trait “level” (adept, master or grandmaster) only determines which traits compete with each other, nothing more.

Exciton.8942:

The only thing that looks too strong at the moment for me is confounding suggestions which provide a bit too many stuns. You don’t even need to interrupt to lock down others.

Even PU nerf or not is debatable since it’s mainly a defensive trait.

How about:

Confounding Suggestions
When you interrupt a target with a daze, stun it instead.

My issue is that besides pointless figurative (apparently I need to add this for you) shouting you did nothing with your post.

It is not about my “beloved” profession. I actually don’t have an agenda and also have been advocating Mesmer nerfs in the past and now. But I try to be specific instead of what you are doing: Screaming “fire”, without indication, where the fire is.

Chonomancer 4times blink in WvW^^ No I most often used mimic actually in JP to be able to use Portal more often. Especially the new LA JP.

Other than that I had not much use for mimic yet, although I still find it an awesome utility… just 3 utility slots… there is just not much room…

Nice try. You can scream all you like. Your stories, which provide not a hint as to what supposedly makes it so overpowered, have no weight. People would say anything to get their points across. Come here with something conclusive that actually makes sense instead of hammering out a: “Mesmer is OP”, in yet another nonconstructive way.

Thing is, I think also for defense it is too strong. Imo the trait needs a straight out nerf. But well, that’s just me it seems.

But I actually find the idea with phantasms causing reveal kinda interesting… I’ll have to contemplate that a bit more though.

Gabriell.4856:

Thief don’t use longbow….

I could brush this off if you said it once (mistake) but you said it multiple times so it means you’re ignorant on the subject.

I suggest you play other classes.

Lol. Who cares if it’s long or short bow. I am sorry to have offended you by mixing up two words (at least I was consistent in doing so^^). I’ll try not to hurt you again by mixing up two words.

Also your conclusion is rather funny. Interesting thought processes there.

@Sunflowers:
Sry, I forgot that one^^ Still it isn’t free.

However, as I wrote, the issue isn’t, that they have gap closers, the issue is that they need to be in close range and expose themselves to PAoE in addition the area they hit is considerably smaller. I agree though that the Mesmer stealth shatter doesn’t have several tries and additionally uses several cool downs to execute. On the other hand Mesmers can still deal damage via phantasms, while the Mesmer herself stays hidden.

But all of that doesn’t actually matter, and I forgot why we went there anyway. The problem isn’t PU Mesmers can shatter from stealth. The problem imo is that the time frame in which they can set up their shatter is too long.

EDIT:

I still think it’s cheesy and that neither class should be able to spike someone down from stealth instantly, but it’s really not true that Thieves can’t do it.

Nobody claimed they couldn’t.

I agree with varas. It is important to watch the last 10-15 minutes of the video, where there was actual fighting. Target golem practice (even if the golem is a guardian^^) always gives a somewhat unrealistic image of how things actually are.

But I generally agree that there probably needs to be some kind of tuning down everything. However, we are still in the 1st week after patch and people of course jump first to the killer builds. Once things have settled and people actually played around with support possibilities (one thing was mentioned in the video with Mesmer invuln support) and team compositions many things might get put into context.

Having high toughness might be less important than actually using actively defensive (team support) skills. So I hope that ANet will still wait for things to settle.

clipnotdone.9634:

I want to live in a world where chronomancy is a thing and quadruple blinks exist.

Yeah, I am so very exited for that. I don’t care how practical/useful that would be. I wanna do it… blink over the whole bordelrands inna second^^

+1 to this thread and thanks to Robert Gee and the balance team. There are some bumps on the road still, but I’ll give it time. After seeing those changes I am confident that the balance team will balance things out. So that finally Mesmers all over the globe will get more and more hate mail from interrupted and locked down foes. As it should be^^

@Menaka, Sunflowers and Fay:
I responded here.

Menaka.5092:

TyPin.9860:

Thief backstab needs to be in melee range

thieves have a handful of gap closers and teleports on 0 cooldown

The discussion developed from Backstab. So we are talking about D/P or D/D Thieves. To say Thieves have several teleports on 0 cooldown is kinda misleading, because they are still connected with costs. Also 0 CD teleports of D/D or D/P is only on Longbow and it is actually quite expensive. I am not saying this is unfair. Still, the Thief needs to be in Melee range and thus risks to be hit by PAoE.

TyPin.9860:

Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.

dodging mirror blade from more than 300 range can be done while sleeping and the only combo from stealth that can give a similar damage to backstab is mirror blade + shatter from melee range

Still, Mesmer IP shatter has bigger range than Thief backstab. Thief backstab has 130 range, Mesmer has 240. Thus in some circumstances Mesmer is a bit safer from PAoE (I admit, those are actually rare) but also can hit targets in a bigger area.

TyPin.9860:

Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.

you are burning your cooldowns to bait the dodges, seems fair to me?

To me too, never said it was unfair.

TyPin.9860:

Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

thieves can also stun you with that same backstab, blind you istantly after that, teleport away and stealth again

And mesmer can do similar things. Not sure what your point is here.

Sunflowers.1729:

TyPin.9860:

Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Actually, this only works with Decoy and Mass Invis. If your Torch invisibility ends next to an enemy, the burn will reveal you. Just go to sPvP, hit a golem, use The Prestige, and wait for 3/6 seconds to test this.

I am aware of that. Never claimed otherwise.

[…]

And you know very well why Thief has reveal, it’s because they have no CDs and that is the only mechanic stopping them going Backstab>CnD>Backstab>CnD.etc. Mesmer stealth has cooldowns so you can’t do that continuously.

Edit: Before someone points out that Initiative is a limiting factor, I mean something like Backstab>CnD>wait for initiative>repeat. Obviously I can’t test if this is possible to sustain indefinitely but you sure can do it several times in a row.

Fay.2357:

Enough times. Reveal wasn’t always a thing. It was implemented after thieves did just that.

Never said they should not be revealed. I only wanted to show that Mesmer shatters (mind you there are not only shatters that do primarily damage) have a bigger variability in execution and effect. Giving Mesmer such a long duration stealth allows her too much freedom in executing and preparing them imo.

People for example say: “You see illusions coming up, so a shatter will come soon”, or “Shatter have to be set up”. This is all good and fine. But 6s of stealth can be a long time. The Illusions still apply conditions, the Phantasms still deal damage. The Mesmer’s foe still is pressured, while he waits for some of the shatter tells, which he dodges and the shatter then comes afterwards.

Granted, such kind of mind game and tricking the opponent is well played and not that easy to do. But 2s of extra stealth, (comparing old and new PU from Decoy for instance) make it considerably more easy. Too easy imo.

On the other hand (to go against many points I brought up before^^): I skimmed through the Thief forum and seemingly they think PU shatter can be dealt easily with by using longbow. So there is at least one profession that isn’t actually worried. And the concept they apply with Shortbow could easily be adopted by other professions with any form of AoE skills.

Curunen.8729:

Traited Mirror is the best thing about this patch.

I absolutely love it and it’s the main reason I can’t let go of taking the Chaos line.

I seriously hope they leave it alone because it’s a lot of fun and risk/reward (blowing your heal early to reflect and mitigate damage for example).

Same here. Chaos line feels very rewarding and fun (well except for my issues with PU and the nerf to the staff trait, but those are different topics^^).

Not sure if I’ll ever run a build without the Chaos line^^

jportell.2197:

Even if PU does grant an “eternity” of stealth. The burst will not hit as hard as it would from say a 6/6/0/0/6 full on shatter mes. Which btw doesn’t take PU. If we are talking WvW then who cares. WvW has never nor will ever be balanced.

Yeah, I don’t care for WvW regarding this topic. People can have their 5000 years stealth builds, if they want it there^^

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Ya gotta block out the names to avoid infractions.

Fixed. All names are censured now^^

I just saw this in the chat box after the match was already over. Still found it funny^^ (see image)

However, lock down actually is freaking strong.

@Fay:
I moved the discussion in another PU dedicated thread.
Link

TyPin.9860:

@Fay:
I agree my reaction was a bit over the top. But to your points (which are actually articulated):

1. I agree that shatter from long range is less powerful than melee range. That does not change the fact that you can do it. And still you can do considerable damage. At least that was my experience with the new trait system. I did not do the math on it. And doing a shatter from a save distance should be less powerful. I am not intentionally misleading and I am a bit offended that you claim so. But nonetheless, let’s move on.
2. Than I was lucky more than I deserved? Also stealth tracking with Mirror Blade and using GS #5 is a thing. Although it’s situational and requires skill. Point is, it is possible. Less so with a Mesmer, if she gained Aegis from PU (not sure of Mirror blade still tracks, if it got blocked by Aegis though). And it’s not only Mesmers fighting thieves. For warriors for instance, it is considerable easier to do Hammer burst to CC the thief in stealth if he doesn’t dodge it.
3. Thing is Backstab still needs to be closer to the target than any Mesmer burst. Including IP-Shatter and Mirror Blade. For a lack of a better word, I used the word “pattern”. The Thief is still at higher risk going so close and becomes better predictable than a Mesmer. You have more freedom of approach with a shatter burst, than with a Backstab. Additionally you can shatter as Mesmer literally when passing by. That’s very different for a Thief backstab. But I realize that this is actual the same point as #1.
4. The Mesmer can wait, he doesn’t have to. Phantasms still do damage during this time. It wouldn’t make sense to use this tactic all the time. You can alternate, when to do your burst. Point is, you can do the same damage with or without stealth, while Thief relies on getting his attack off while still in stealth. This additional freedom, that is offered to Mesmers, is what makes Thief burst and Mesmer burst so different. And giving Mesmer 6s instead of 4s stealth makes it so very easy for Mesmers to get their burst out.

@apharma:
Maybe you are right. Here’s how it went:

TyPin.9860:

Caelus.7139:

TyPin.9860:

snap

Do tell me how this is any different than a thief’s backstab out of nowhere mechanic.

Alright:

• Thief backstab needs to be in melee range. Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.
• Thief can be pushed or pulled during stealth to prevent him from getting to you. Often this results in stealth wearing off (in my experience at least). Mesmer with PU has a good chance the pull will get blocked due to aegis.
• Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.
• Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Now does this all only apply to PU builds only? No it doesn’t. But with PU builds it is made considerably more easy to execute to a point where I think it is too easy.

Fay.2357:

@Typin
Allow me to elaborate on your original points a bit.

1.
You claim mesmers can do shatter burst at long range. This is incredibly and intentionally misleading. In a standard quick burst, IP is between a 1.5x and 2x modifier for the total shatter damage. Bursting without IP is not bursting at all.

Additionally, attempting to use mirror blade from long range is usually a losing proposition as it is easy to see and dodge. On top of that, a significant amount of burst comes from the rapid bouncing of mirror blade that is only achievable at point blank range.

Claiming you can shatter burst at range is nothing but absurd nonsense.

2.
Burning cooldowns to attempt cc on a stealthed thief is a best lucky, and at worst capable of losing the fight for you. You can try to predict the location of the thief, but blindly throwing out cc in the hopes that it’ll hit the thief is not a tactic that will enjoy much success against a skilled player.

3.
Backstab always works in the same patterns? That’s absurd nonsense. Backstab is an attack from stealth. There is no tell, and the thief can choose when to use it.

You can attempt to predict when it comes, and you can even get quite good at predicting it. Unfortunately, the thief has the ultimate timing advantage, even now. CnD thieves can restealth on clones with little risk, and d/p thieves can permanently restealth through the combo.

A patient thief will land the backstab, because eventually you’ll run out of active defenses to try and prevent it.

4.
The point made by Caelus here is quite accurate: backstab only reveals if it hits. If it hits, you’re already on the back foot in the fight and need to take some sort of immediate defensive measures.

Additionally, your argument is inherently flawed. If the Mesmer waits until stealth wears off to attack, that means 2 things. First is that it gives the other person a chance to react to the burst. Second is that it makes your burst extremely predictable. By limiting when you attack, it allows your opponents to know when you’re trying to burst simply by the duration of your stealth skills.

A good Mesmer bursts unpredictably, and that means eating a bit of revealed when you do.

Now, I invite you to dismiss my arguments as ‘emotional garbage’, but I think you’ll find that I make a rather compelling logical case that is difficult to write off without making yourself look extremely foolish.

@apharma:
Sorry I addressed Fay’s answer already in the other thread. Not going to continue the discussion in 2 threads. I hope you understand. I would be glad if we could move the discussion in the other thread. If my answer to Fay didn’t address what you wrote here (I am getting a bit exhausted from the forum warrioring^^) then please respond there, if you would be so kind.

@Fay:
I agree my reaction was a bit over the top. But to your points (which are actually articulated):

1. I agree that shatter from long range is less powerful than melee range. That does not change the fact that you can do it. And still you can do considerable damage. At least that was my experience with the new trait system. I did not do the math on it. And doing a shatter from a save distance should be less powerful. I am not intentionally misleading and I am a bit offended that you claim so. But nonetheless, let’s move on.
2. Than I was lucky more than I deserved? Also stealth tracking with Mirror Blade and using GS #5 is a thing. Although it’s situational and requires skill. Point is, it is possible. Less so with a Mesmer, if she gained Aegis from PU (not sure of Mirror blade still tracks, if it got blocked by Aegis though). And it’s not only Mesmers fighting thieves. For warriors for instance, it is considerable easier to do Hammer burst to CC the thief in stealth if he doesn’t dodge it.
3. Thing is Backstab still needs to be closer to the target than any Mesmer burst. Including IP-Shatter and Mirror Blade. For a lack of a better word, I used the word “pattern”. The Thief is still at higher risk going so close and becomes better predictable than a Mesmer. You have more freedom of approach with a shatter burst, than with a Backstab. Additionally you can shatter as Mesmer literally when passing by. That’s very different for a Thief backstab. But I realize that this is actual the same point as #1.
4. The Mesmer can wait, he doesn’t have to. Phantasms still do damage during this time. It wouldn’t make sense to use this tactic all the time. You can alternate, when to do your burst. Point is, you can do the same damage with or without stealth, while Thief relies on getting his attack off while still in stealth. This additional freedom, that is offered to Mesmers, is what makes Thief burst and Mesmer burst so different. And giving Mesmer 6s instead of 4s stealth makes it so very easy for Mesmers to get their burst out.

@Caelus:
I do apologize for the words “emotional garbage”. That was uncalled for. However, I explained the points in my response to Fay. I personally think PU is too strong atm. It allows to get the burst out too easy, while leaving you at a very low risk of exposing yourself. A thief has to expose himself in melee range for his backstab. That might be less of an issue against Mesmers, but is very different against some other classes.

apharma.3741:

So answer my question which you selectively ignored. Give me one reason why it is acceptable that a thief can burst as high, if not more so, from stealth of an equal or greater length with a double stun (now basi venom is 2 charges base) and it is suddenly OP for mesmers to get a bit more stealth from a GM trait which doesn’t even compare to the amount of stealth a thief can stack for themselves and their party?

First, thief stealth itself can be countered already. For instance, I have now some experience with lock down after the patch. I can deny any stealth from D/P thieves with my lock down build. I will use D/P as reference now, because this is what I meet with the new skill system. Didn’t meet a S/D for instance or even P/D condi.

Getting into stealth:
First there is the Pistol #5 into Hear Seeker. The moment I see the blind field they are stunned and often interrupted. Shadow Refuge -> I push them out. So their potential burst can be mitigated by denying them stealth. I admit this was a bit idealized and in the actual fight, if the thief is clever, he can try to abuse LoS to get his skills off. So this point is only partly valid. The only instant stealth they got which I can’t deny reliably deny is steal itself.

Executing the burst:
The other issue is, that thieves have less time to get their burst out. And they need to go melee to do it. Of course they have teleports such as Steal, Infiltrator Signet or Shadow Step. But those are, as well as our Decoy and Torch #4 also their defensive skills. The point is, as Thief, it is definitely harder to get your burst of and you risk yourself.

My actual point:
I am not against Mesmer doing high burst damage from stealth. I am against giving Mesmers an “eternity” of stealth to have time to set up their burst.

@Caelus:
Decoy, Mimiced Decoy, MI and Torch. Those are 4 unconditional stealth skills, 2 of those with 0 cast time and 0 tells, one of them kinda with 1/4s cast time and only one of them with almost 2s cast time. What I have described were actual instances, which I have witnessed or what I had done myself.

You on the other hand talk about teleports, as if a main hand dagger thieve can teleport like a S/D. You give no credit for gap closing and initiative cost in your responses. Thus, your statements were weirdly out of proportion. Especially considering Thieves not only face Mesmers, but also Guardians for instance. Where going melee brings them in actual immediate danger even when cloaked.

@Loxsus:
I do hope so too that ANet doesn’t jump to overly eager balancing changes. And I am aware of the possibility that I might be wrong regarding PU. However, I am not really frustrated or even venting about the game. But the tendency of some seems to be: criticize Mesmer trait and you are trying to take down the profession as a whole. Which is obviously not my aim for I myself main Mesmer.

Vieux P.1238:

A troll? becuz i advocate & defend the mesmer class from ppl like you who comments none sens on every thread & starting new ones just so they can nerf it?

Hell yeah then i guess. But as long there’s ppl like you attempting to discredit or change what we got, i’ll keep on defending & i ask for others to join in.

Defend your mesmers ppl.

My friend, I’ll give you a chance. Look at the thread I started there (btw. the only thread I started regarding anything balance related). What will you see? You will see that I urge people to actually learn what is happening and not wrongly blaming certain traits, that weren’t even used.

You might be surprised, but I actually have no agenda. You might be even more surprised, but I main Mesmer. I am actually trying to stay civil, while you have not only sidetracked and subtly attacked me personally in the other thread. But you also used straw man arguments against me.

This is why I think you’re a troll. But you can prove me otherwise, if you’d actually discuss.

What the…

I was only saying: Learn what your opponent actually does. It is funny that I don’t use PU and people still claim I did. This was my point. A misconception that might target the wrong trait. Although I personally find PU too strong, this is not the point of this thread.

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

after contradicting yourself on the other thread, why am i not even surprise.

Except, there wasn’t a contradiction. Also, nice try to troll. You are now sidetracking a discussion into another thread, where it is harder for people to actually follow what happened. But well, that’s what trolls do.

kylwilson.9137:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

“Emotional garbage”, that’s rich.

Can we be objective when it comes to a profession that has no cool-down on their most potent weapons skills?

Yeah, and initiative is eternal in any given situation… This is becoming beyond ridiculous.

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
Lol… I play almost exclusively Mesmer. Always those people, who have those ridiculous conclusions.

However, PU does apply Aegis and Protection. And it does it in deed automatically (as in you don’t need to do anything else to get it). It doesn’t do it always, if that is your point. But I didn’t say it always applies those boons. Still, I myself blocked plenty of attacks with Aegis from PU.

@apharma:
My god, listen to yourself. Picking on the one thing I said to divert my argument. The issue is not the boons themselves. They are a bonus so to say. The main issue is still the long stealth time. Did you read my previous statements?

Also, what is your obsession with thieves? I had no issues with thieves since the patch hit and I am not using PU any more. Stop so much trying to compare the awesomeness of Mesmer with the cheesiness of Thief.

Your contradicting yourself. You say the problem is not the boons & yet reading above thats what seems to be your point. & now after reading @apharma that you quoted, it’s the stealth duration that’s get’s you off & not the boons as per say.
What the Hell! witch one is it? the Boons or the stealth?

Poor try for a straw man. My argument was from beginning the stealth time. The whole time I was talking about stealth time. I mentioned as a side note the boons. And as always, people are then cherry picking the things they are able to dispute, even if it misses the major points.

So I ask you too: Did you read my previous statements?

EDIT:
I read your previous statements now. You are clearly a troll. Have a good day sir or madam.

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

@Vieux P:
Lol… I play almost exclusively Mesmer. Always those people, who have those ridiculous conclusions.

However, PU does apply Aegis and Protection. And it does it in deed automatically (as in you don’t need to do anything else to get it). It doesn’t do it always, if that is your point. But I didn’t say it always applies those boons. Still, I myself blocked plenty of attacks with Aegis from PU.

@apharma:
My god, listen to yourself. Picking on the one thing I said to divert my argument. The issue is not the boons themselves. They are a bonus so to say. The main issue is still the long stealth time. Did you read my previous statements?

Also, what is your obsession with thieves? I had no issues with thieves since the patch hit and I am not using PU any more. Stop so much trying to compare the awesomeness of Mesmer with the cheesiness of Thief.

Caelus.7139:

TyPin.9860:

snap

Do tell me how this is any different than a thief’s backstab out of nowhere mechanic.

Alright:

• Thief backstab needs to be in melee range. Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.
• Thief can be pushed or pulled during stealth to prevent him from getting to you. Often this results in stealth wearing off (in my experience at least). Mesmer with PU has a good chance the pull will get blocked due to aegis.
• Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.
• Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Now does this all only apply to PU builds only? No it doesn’t. But with PU builds it is made considerably more easy to execute to a point where I think it is too easy.

apharma.3741:

TyPin.9860:

apharma.3741:

As Windwalker said, it doesn’t matter what length of stealth you put on it, whether it be 2s or 5mins, it won’t change the burst from stealth and that is what’s downing people.

Setting up burst in a 4s window or in a 6s window makes considerable difference.

Escaping in a landscape where there isn’t something to LoS around in a 4s window or in a 6s window makes a considerable difference too.

Yes, and this is the other thing I am disliking in PU. Thanks for making this point for me.

PU is too strong as an offensive and defensive trait. It makes you even partly immune or at least more resistant to AoE dmg (what usually is used against cloaked targets) due to Aegis application and Protection.

apharma.3741:

As Windwalker said, it doesn’t matter what length of stealth you put on it, whether it be 2s or 5mins, it won’t change the burst from stealth and that is what’s downing people.

Setting up burst in a 4s window or in a 6s window makes considerable difference.

Dammerung.6419:

What you seem to advocate for is nerfing everything else, so that PU can remain the same. This will lead to another quasi mandatory trait a Mesmer needs: PU, because without it, the other traits will be lackluster. I see not a single reason what so ever that PU should give +100% stealth duration.

Wow strawman. He’s saying wait and see if the almost certain nerf to our burst damage potential will alter your view on whether or not PU will still be considered a problem. Right now it’s the one-shotting that people are up in arms about, that it happens out of stealth that is longer than usual is not the issue.

I am not into straw maning. It is what I understood and thus I used the word “seem” on purpose.

Windwalker.7421:

The problem is not PU, the problem is being able to instant Stun someone without warning, and then 100-0 them before they have a chance to activate a stun-break and counter your attack.

This is the passage that made me believe his preferred solution would be to nerf other traits, such as _shatter, phantasm or even CC traits, because their benefits seem to be “the problem”.

The thing is, the bursting is not my issue. Many people are not that bright and I have witnessed first hand how ppl assume I used PU, when I didn’t.

My problem with PU is a different one. It is being able to reset fights all day long and the ability to set up burst easily without the chance for anticipation. Atm it is a pure reaction game shaking of PU power shatter builds.

yep it is. It was originally designed so that in WvW you could gain bonuses for PvE as an encouragement to go into WvW. The same thing is still in place with mega servers as far as I know.

WvW buffs aren’t connected to your guild, but to the server you are on.

I am not advocating a direct damage nerf. I am advocating a nerf to PU.

Today several players assumed, after I defeated them, I was using the trait Prismatic Understanding. I was playing Mesmer, so far the observation was correct, but there was no PU involved, because I don’t like that trait.

If you guys make assertions, please be sure that the premise of your conclusions are actually true.

So for all here, who blame PU for something. Please read up what PU actually does and how you can tell your opponent actually has the trait equipped.

@Windwalker:
33% would equal at least one second stealth bonus. This is what PU did before the patch. And guess what, people used the trait a lot. There was no reason to buff PU the way they did.

Will it solve the bursting down? Yes, partly it will. Because a 4s window is shorter than a 6s window and the time frame, where you can expect another burst from stealth, is potentially shorter.

What you seem to advocate for is nerfing everything else, so that PU can remain the same. This will lead to another quasi mandatory trait a Mesmer needs: PU, because without it, the other traits will be lackluster. I see not a single reason what so ever that PU should give +100% stealth duration.

Exciton.8942:

Our signature high burst combos start with skills like mirror blade and illusionary leap that are so easy to doge.

But it’s not the only way to shatter. And if you start it in melee ranger or summon a iZerker to force dodges, you make it significantly harder. I have learned to not use idealized 1v1 scenarios when arguing strengths and weaknesses of builds. Often the fight is already going on for a while and your foes endurance is not at max any more.

On the other hand PU gives yourself in too many situations the chance to reset the fight and setup your burst (again).

They nerfed the recharge bonus from 5% to 2%. This is a 60% nerf of the resulting absolute recharge bonus. What I do not understand is:

• Why didn’t they realize the power of this trait sooner? There were many here in the forums, who did the math in like 5s (well, a bit overestimated maybe^^) after they released the trait info.
• Why did they not go with 20% steps? Reducing it first to 4% recharge rate. And if that still was too much, they could have lowered it to 3%. But 2% is without a doubt too less of a benefit and I myself stopped using it.

I say the next step (and please not as late as 2 months in the future or so) would be to set the recharge bonus to something around 3 to 4%.

The game has become stronger and more purpose focused. If you wanna go for full glass cannon, you can now more than ever before. Having a ridiculous amount of long duration and immensely buffing stealth (perma stealth isn’t the problem here btw) allows you to set up burst, which is stronger than ever, from relative safety. This is what makes PU Mesmer burst so strong atm.

Bursting with PU Mesmer is a high reward very low risk build approach atm. This should not fit together. If you want that, go play Warrior^^

I say make PU as it was before and all is fine.

@Arshay Duskbrow:
No, PU in the current state is ridiculous. Anyone and their mothers can utilize a PU conid or PU shatter build and own the others while having a huge survivability. No one said stealth shouldn’t be a part of Mesmer gameplay. But currently it is just zoo much of it. It allows no real counter play and you are simply bursted down out of stealth, without any indication what so ever. Thief stealth and burst can be in many instances anticipated, but Mesmer stealth can’t. This is why it needs to be tuned down a notch.

And before you say anything. I main Mesmer myself and tried PU for some time now… it is just out of control and I refuse to use this trait now, because winning with it is neither skill full nor does it feel satisfying.

If ANet would leave PU alone, they would need to nerf the hell out of other traits, to bring PU builds in line. And this will cause other non PU builds to be below mediocre. That should not be the end result.

So, after playing Lockdown" without DE in both PvP and WvW I realized I have some bad bad habits. For instance I tend to do double dodges sometimes and later wonder, why I have less clones than usual. Or I dodge away from my foe and F3. I expect to stun him… but well… somehow it doesn’t work^^

Do you guys have bad habits that got “exposed” with the new trait system?

hm… then it might be bug worthy…

Mender’s purity triggers now Power Cleanse. Power Cleanse has 1s cool down. So if you fire one after the other, it won’t trigger a 2nd time. If you fire it with 1s pause, it should work properly.

Well, as far as I remember they said it applies the buff when you place the glamor skill. That it would sometimes work in an AoE around the caster was not mentioned before though, I think.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Mesmer should get nerfed. Its the most OP class at the moment.
The last thing you want is your class to be played effectively by braindead players. Or even afk (bearbow style).

I qm seriously amazed how some players didn’t see this coming.

There are so many changes to the basic mechanics, that things just need shaving and balancing.

This is exactly what we warned before the patch went life. Mesmer players on average had to deal with a lot of issues before and were probably one of the classes, where you actually need to adept to your opponents behavior. And now we got similar and even stronger traits (looking at you PU and 5% Staff Trait [but nerfing it 60% was way way way way way way way way way overkill]) than many others. And we can use our new tools to the fullest, where others could often ignore us so far. Now people need to learn how Mesmer actually works.

And what do the devs do? They jump on the nerf train (and nerf the wrong traits). I tell you what the result will be: After things have settled and Mesmer have been nerfed back into place, people will actually understand how Mesmers work now and we will be back to square one.

Why not let it play out for a while? So that people can actually come to the forums with informed opinions and not with first impressions and emotional responses.

This is beyond ridiculous imo. PU is the single one trait the majority (or so it feels) believes being too strong. Power Shatter with PU is simply insane. The devs keep touching stuff on the wrong place. Okay, Power Block was a bug, I get that. But nerfing MtD and Chaotic Dampening (mind you the cool down reduction was nerfed by 60% [reduced the cool down reduction bonus of Chaos Storm from 1.75s/s to 0.7s/s]) was absurd, the way it happened.

As Fay pointed out: The staff trait is now worse than before the patch regarding the cool down reduction and in the current state there is no real reason for me to use that trait any more for some rare protection. Back to GS then.

Also, no mentioning on why Confusing Combatants was touched.

Please look at the broken PU trait and leave the actual fun and active stuff as it was.