Guild Wars 2

briggah.7910:

Reason why I say they should be banned is because it is an exploit. You shouldn’t be in there so stop exploiting into it.. Also pointed out that since they know this exploit they probably know the other ones that actually get you into objectives without using siege. Whats to stop them when they get bored of dying to legendary defenders and they exploit into objectives when no one is around?? NOTHING since it seems ok by many of you as this is something you do when you are bored..

Yes Anet should fix these but players should also stop doing it as well. Ban them all.

This is the same argument as: “We know the security is lack luster. And he stole a lolly pop from the shop the other day. So he knows how stealing works. What stops him from stealing a diamond next time.” I could even blow it out of proportion even more: “We know the security is lack luster. And he stole a lolly pop from the shop the other day. So he knows how committing a crime works. What stops him from stealing someones life next time.”

Yes it is an exploit and it should be fixed (one wonders how this is possible in the first place). But why are you people so eager on punishing someone for a “petty offense” as you would punish a “capital crime” (figuratively). Such an undifferentiating “law enforcement” system would cause an outrage in the real world.

I never understood either, why necro should start fights with just 50% Lf or even less. That is ridiculous. I beat necros with 100% LF and I loose against necros with 100%. I’d say, deal with it. If you wanna really be a good dueler (as some mentioned, it is not exactly a supported game mode), you should learn to deal with that. Is it annoying, that especially power necros sometimes seem to have endless amount of LF? Yes, as it is annoying that certain thief/mesmer builds restealth all the time, that warrior has dmg and condi immunity skills, that engie covers the ground with turrets and himself just blocks and evades the critical moments in fight and so on.

Also not allowing Plague in duels is equally pointless. What is so special about plague, that you need to not allow it?

I think one general rule when fighting condition builds in general is to keep your distance. Most condition builds rely on relatively short range or telegraphed abilities to become seriously threatening. Or in the case of clone death builds, it’s the illusions, who you simply should keep your distance from.

That might not seem very appealing with a power based thief, but shortbow can be quite effective. If you go close, do it only for a short burst and then gain your distance again.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

TyPin.9860:

Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”.

I don’t see Guardian’s shadowstep (Judge’s Intervntion) being telegraphed.

Marked the important detail there for you to better see

hm… I could see a possible exploit by using galmours and shattering often, so you can upkeep Chaos Armor 24/7 and use the awesome staff trait. Might be too strong… Even if it was just Mind Wrack providing a blast finisher…

That being said… I wouldn’t complain if they did something along those lines

Yeah, I was guessing that wouldn’t work^^ However a 1/4s cast time can actually mean something and would it even make possible to not only dodge but also interrupt steal. But yeah, simply for destroying all the combos Sizzle Hint listed this would be a huge deal and maybe too big of an actual nerf.

From Mesmer PoV:
in WvW: Thieves, especially S/D, are quite untouchable in 1v1… but I know that they struggle against other classes, like guardians.

in PvP: In the game mode, which the balancing teams aim towards, thieves can be strong, but are certainly not untouchable. I see more dead thieves in PvP than I see a dead me^^

Okay, just fyi this is almost entirely coming from a Mesmer PoV. So there might be some bias^^

But it bothered me for a while now that Thief Steal isn’t telegraphed in any way as in: one could see it coming. Almost every other class Mechanic is in some way “telegraphed”. Steal, although being very owerful, is not.

So how would it be for thieves, if steal would be somehow telegraphed. Something like a 1/4 second cast time, where some kind of animation is happening, that allows me to see the steal coming (unless happening from stealth of course^^). Would that destroy how thieves work? I know there is this CnD into steal combo, that might be not possible any more with this suggestion. So I’d like the thieves’ opinion on this matter. And please keep it civil.

apharma.3741:

I once reflected a kill shot back at a warrior asking for duels then getting his mate to +1 it in WvW. He stopped running the frenzy kill shot build after that.

Yeah, yesterday I encountered a Kill Show Warrior in WvW too. I was just waiting for him to use Kill Shot… he didn’t seem to care that he just dropped his own HP to 25%. His kamikaze style of fighting still troubled me a bit, but he still died in the end as he was just attempting another Kill Shot. Thanks for standing still just when I trigger Mind Wrack

I was running a shatter build with Focus. Trying out Focus, which I used for some time very often. I can sometimes nicely pull like 3 opponents on one spot, where they are ripe for a mind wrack… very situational though and doesn’t work often^^

However, I was trying to decap far when I realized, that a thief (D/P, I believe) is standing there waiting for me… And I though… oh god… you are dead… you should turn around. Well, my brain and my fingers weren’t in agreement. And I ran directly into my doom, so I thought.

For whatever reason the thief, who gave me much trouble other times in the match, was very defensive at the beginning of the fight and I managed to get him down on health without even one shatter. Phantasm damage for the win^^ The only thing I was thinking, as he went into SR of point: “You keep decaping and keep calm, you needn’t defeat him… just delay as long as you can”.

I put down a curtain just before I expected him to backstab me. I dodged a backstab, Mirror bladed another and then pulled him off point, where he lost stealth. I forgot how it continued from there. I only remember to have barely moved and with a lucky shatter the thief was downed. And I barely lost any health… boah I felt great.

And just as I expected the usual PvP flame, like: “No1 uses Focus, you do it wrong”, ro something along those lines, the thief actually said: “Well done”. I felt even greater then^^

It is important to note that ANet said they wanted to look over Consume Ectoplasm (I saw it somewhere in the forums, no idea any more where). So that might change things again.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@TyPin
Your ability to make selective inferences, and then criticizes others selective inferences is interesting.

Now would you like to back up that claim? What are my selective inferences?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Either way the conversation is at a standstill.

Agreed.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The CD of Moa and Lich are equal. The skills should then technically be equal in strength. Is there anything about them that is unequal to you TyPin?

Interesting. Is the discussion not at a stand still now? And equality with 2 skills that do totally different things is a much more complex issue, than you try to make it to be. However, it doesn’t make sense to keep discussing my initial suggestion. Everything has been said, I believe.

Fay.2357:

Actually, I meant damage control in the colloquial sense; ‘to do damage control’. The situation is already in the kittenter, you’re not gonna be able to really salvage it, but you can do a bit of damage control.

I just didn’t have the heart to correct kent on that one.

Well, okay. I’ll leave it at that (I wanted to do that earlier already^^). This discussion made me avoid the forum lately anyway (not mainly due to your replies)…

Also, in almost all matches so far this week (I hoped to record encounters with Lichs), Necromancer didn’t use Lich in my presence. And I wasn’t running Moa^^

I see often the claim that the removal of those buffs also make builds not viable any more. Can someone link me a build, and explain me, why this one relies on guard stacks?

That even isn’t needed. With Illusionary Persona becoming base line Continuum Split might very well work without any illusion. That means, you can just Shatter F5 and now you have 3? seconds time. That is enough at least for 2 phantasms and one either signet.

If you charge your foe and trigger F5 at max range, your foe may not even have the time to reach and kill the rift. Theoretically you can start casting the 1st phantasm and mid cast trigger f5, giving you some extra milliseconds, which could be a big deal imo.

I looooove condi shatter

PvP:
I rarely run condi shatter in PvP though. Simply because I dislike all the rage going towards me from allies and foes alike. And I also feel that in PvP I can be more effective with a power based build.

WvW:
I run sometimes a condi shatter build in WvW roaming. And i personally believe it to be mostly OP (but mostly because ppl simply don’t really know how to approach the fight). It has, because of Staff, a huge mobility factor, strong dmg output and offers good survivability. That doesn’t mean I win all my fights… but most of them. Because I use sword instead of scepter I even sometimes are able to chase targets down, while they take the full load of torment. I am often able to 1v3 my opponents, which I have trouble with on other Mesmer builds.

Over all it is a ton of fun for roaming

@Fay:
You (if I remember right) introduced the concept of damage control to me and claimed my examples weren’t counters. However, only Daniel explained the difference, you didn’t (unless I read it over). So I am going with Daniels explanation.

Daniel Handler.4816:

With a counter:

• no part of the desired effect of the skill occurs
• ex. with feedback from the instance the skill is cast I own the projectile and all its effects and the caster does not benefit in any way.

With damage control

• parts of the skill occur but damage is prevented
• ex. with black powder/whatever I perma blind a Mesmer as they are shattering. I am not harmed but the mesmer still gets the benefits of having shattered.

Is this a definition you would agree to? Because if so, the warbanner example would not be a counter (depending on what all includes “the desired effect”).

Also both Moa and Lich have the same cool down.

Personally I think, before we continue, we should be on the same level on what ‘damage control’, ‘counter’ and ‘hard counter’ actually means.

MSFone.3026:

TyPin.9860:

pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run

Or dodge?

Edit: To elaborate: Because of the 1 sec delay on focus, pulling this off means you are timing it extremely well re. their endurance bar, in which case you should kill them, or you are just ganking people with moa who don’t know what they are doing, in which case you should kill them. The sprint thing on moa is an evade for its duration. All it takes is one dodge and that sprint and you very likely will not die. If you kill someone with moa they 9/10 times they were going to die anyway.

Then all Necromancers I met so far seemed not aware of that. Because they all fell for that… However, I don’t use Moa that often… so maybe it was just a lucky streak.

It is funny how a simple question for a suggestion can cause so many emotional outbursts. It started with the first reply and it is quite evident throughout the thread.

Also, Moa done right prevents any target from running away. If you can’t kill a Moa’d foe, then either the circumstances were unlucky (such as moaing the target at max distance and having 4 other foes between you and the Moa) or you just don’t do it right.

In my short experience with Moa I usually Moa’d the targets, pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run, immob them and just killed that pesky Moa.

Daniel Handler.4816:

You asked for an experimental proof that any number less than 30,000 – 30,000 is less than 0. Pyro is saying that any mitigation to prevent such an occurrence is not conducive to PvP. Tell me what experimental proof you want for that.

No, that is not what I am asking for. Are you actually reading my posts?

Fay.2357:

If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

This is what I want to be proven. I want to have proven, that in Lich form, you defeat anyone 1v1 (except the mentioned builds). As he wanted me to prove that with either Guardian or Mesmer I can defeat Lich 1v1. It is actually quite simple.

Actually I did not even ask for that proof. I simply said that no1 has presented me that proof.

EDIT:
Both “proofs” btw are but still at the same level as anecdotal evidence. The anecdote simply exists then in video form. But well, I think he simply doesn’t believe that my experiences are genuine.

@Daniel Handler:
You say: “Mathematical principles like addition which should work in this universe 100% of the time.”
Mathematical principles are what they are: Principles. It is a model, which is used as a tool. Outside of a human mind there are no mathematical principles, not even addition.

You also keep turning things around. I only included the theory part, because you mentioned the theory gravity. And explained how it wouldn’t need a proof, when in fact it does.

Fay wants me to prove my position. Which he worded:

Fay.2357:

Again, I’m sure you’re going to reply with something along the lines of ‘oh, but it doesn’t take 100% team effort to do that, just a single good guardian or mesmer can go toe to toe with a lich no problem.’ Before you say that, prove it. Common knowledge says that a massive cooldown, incredibly powerful elite isn’t going to be countered by just a single glassy person spamming a couple blinds. If you really want to make the claim that you can duel a lich one on one as a guard or mesmer, go do it, record it, and show it to us.

Besides his demeaning wording and wrong assertion of “common knowledge” (Moa, is an incredibly powerful and long CD elite, which can be countered by a single blind) I asked for proof of Fay’s claim. His claim was:

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

Ultimately, again, this all adds up to moa being the only actual effective and realistic counter to lich form. Everything else either doesn’t actually work if you apply just a bit of critical thinking to it, or involves losing the fight one way or another.

I translated it into ‘defeats everything 1v1’. Don’t be so kitten literal and selective. You jumped into the discussion with your deductive and inductive logic, which has nothing to do with the experimental proof we both asked for.

@Daniel Handler:
Yeah, I guessed before that you were a philosopher in some sense.

But that sentence of yours is horribly misguided:
“This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.”

Math makes absolutely no statement about “real world” whatsoever, doesn’t require real world measuring and only relies on deduction. If we but discuss such things like the actual balance in a game, math might provide a tool for analysis, predictions and such, but alone does not ever provide any proof of that balance.

Also you said:
“Deductive is right until proven wrong.”
That is also not correct. You might wanna recheck what the falsification principle actually means, for you seem to confuse logic (including mathematical proof) with experimental proof (which Fay asked off me). Just having a valid theory, doesn’t mean that this theory doesn’t require poof. A deduction can be logically true (one of the criteria of a valid theory), unless one finds a flaw in that same logic. This doesn’t provide any proof though about any real world issue whatsoever, same as math.

Any theory about gravity has to actually be tested (as in experimental proof). Only if we fail to falsify the theory (aka the deduced hypotheses) then we assume that it (the theory) actually is true (as in experimentally true). It becomes an established theory, which popularly gains the attribut “proven”.

Also, please refrain from taking every word I say literally. I am responding to at least 2 ppl in this thread regularly and will not reread every post word by word to respond with the perfect correct wording (no idea how it is about you, but English is not being my mother tongue). But context is everything and just Fay didn’t use the word “everything”, doesn’t mean he didn’t imply a yet not proven superiority of Lich (as in experimental proof, same as Fay asked me to provide):

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

I for once cannot help but think that this is a cheap way to try to shut me down, instead of keeping up a fruitful discussion. Especially you, complaining earlier about some of my rather trollish posts, should know better than to do so.

@Fay:
I will leave it at that. We both made our points. I think you are somewhat disconnecting the conjunctions of my argument (making them seem very ridiculous), but that judgement is up to the reader, if anyone is even interested in the topic. We are running in circles at this point.

I will try to produce the “evidence” you required of me, although no1 has shown me equal evidence of the of the superior strength of Lich.

Btw. I have been indeed on the receiving end of Lich and I never claimed it would be a cake walk to face a Lich. But well… it is as it is…

@Mogar:
Really, just as the thread became more civilized, and I am not denying that some of my posts were troll posts, you come taking stuff out of context. I literally said:

TyPin.9860:

The other issue here is about Moa itself and how it can be countered. Also this is partly brought forward as a reason that Moa should not be nerfed. I agree that I can not that easily refute this, for I have not much personal experience using Moa.

Fay said:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

What he says here is, that only because it can do high damage proves that he decimates things 1v1. You can argue as you want, but that is no proof. It is, as I have already said, a deduction. One can even argue if it is actually valid. The premise might be true, I am not arguing that, but the conjunction of premises and conclusion is not complete simply due to the existence of what you call “damage control”.

Kiting and dodging AAs reduces the dealt damage to 0… This is also true and is something Fay did not take into consideration in his “proof”. With his statement he reacted to what I said:

TyPin.9860:

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

There is no need to differentiate between inductive and deductive reasoning, when both statements aren’t proof. I knew that my “kiting proof” wasn’t actually a proof at all. And that it is inductive doesn’t change the fact, that deductive reasoning is no proof either (although generally accepted as the more valid/usefull reasoning).

@Topic:
First, I did not suggest Lich form to be an exception from other transforms. My suggestion was for all transforms. The peg on which to hang the topic simply was Lich Form. The only issue on top of my head I know, where elites can completely be nullified, is Moa and Moa in interaction with other Transforms. First, by a simple dodge/block/blind or whatever Moa can be completely nullified, seconds by Moa any Transform can be completely nullified. Yes anyone can be Moa’d, but in the current situation of the game, Moa is reserved by most players for Lich and other transforms. Lich, as has been told by several Mesmers, is often the only reason they even slot Moa.

The Necromancer currently is better of taking less useful elites like Flesh Golem or even just let the elite slot empty. Then he might get Moa’d less, for less Mesmers will slot Moa, if Lich wasn’t commonly used, or the slotted Moa might be even better used on that pesky Shoutbow Warrior^^. With Lich in most situations Necromancers in matches involving Mesmers (an any match I had so far as Powermancer, when the enemy team had a Mesmer, they used Moa) are a liability to their team. My idea was to reduce this liability factor.This was at least my initial thought process, which was actually just a casual thought I had and on which I asked for input… I am actually not that convinced any more myself.

The discussion although developed very unfriendly with the first post already calling out for me to “stop thinking”. It generally didn’t get better. And I honestly was shocked how Lich form is perceived by Mesmers, because I as main Mesmer never perceived Lich that threatening.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The argument about 1v1 arose because people are using how weak Lich is or isn’t for why it does or does not deserve a hard counter. Those in favour of full counters generally find it to be formidable, and those against find it weak. I am generally in the line of thinking that equality in skills is based on their base CD (initiative and energy are not comparable to CD at the moment). Therefore Moa and Lich being equal in CD are equal in effect.

Uh well, with my suggestion Moa still would hard counter Lich itself. The suggestion of keenlam wouldn’t counter Lich completely. Yet it got more sympathizers.

My actual argument why Moa Morph should not transform a Lich to a Moa but only back to being Necromancer is neither based on the strengths of nor on other counter measures to Lich. When the Mesmer/ the Mesmer’s team is capable, the Moa’d Lich (as any Moa’d target) would basically be dead. This not only counters Lich Form, it also renders the Necromancer, if he uses his elite, a liability to his team. But the only useful elites of Necros are transforms.

I do not actually base my argument on the premise that Lich could be countered by other means. It was an argument that came up against my suggestion: Because Lich could not be countered by other means, Moa should remain the same. Although the effect to Lich would not even be change by my suggestion. It would only effect what happens, after Lich was already countered.

@Fay and Daniel:
You both are still missing my point. While you make a strong argument, it is no proof. You can stand here all day destroying my arguments. One could conclude you had better arguments then. However, argument =/= proof. From your point of view it would be more likely to prove your position, not mine. However, it is not the proof itself.

Or in other words:
First, assuming no one is lying here, everyone has more or less provided evidence. May it be anecdotal or not. Then there are the arguments. Your argument may seem valid, but that does not guarantee that the argument and its conclusion is actually true. Neither is a valid argument a proof of its premisses nor of its conclusion. To find out, if the argument is true, it requires experimentation. It requires an actual proof. You have demanded proof from me. Just because your point of view seems more logical/likely to you doesn’t mean that it replaces the need of proof.

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Thanks for the answers so far.

Can I get some more feedback from other Guardians? Just trying to expand the “sample size”.

DeceiverX.8361:

Depends on the necro, but I find it much harder fighting lich form in WvW, especially if the necro knows how to play against a thief. Fully stacked with food, a friend of mine deals around 14k damage autos in lich form, and has tons of health. Not playing perfectly against that just leaves you dead on the ground.

Whoa, I never played lich in WvW, but only in sPvP. 14k damage is quite impressive! How often does this happen, or this the once in a day super critical hit with all sigil procs?

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

EDIT:
I am not home over the weekend. So I will try, if I manage, to get some footage together during next week. I will try to be fair and not only select successful fights to show. I can admit when I am wrong. And if that will be the case, I will apologize for some of my rather rude posts.

All theory asside: I asked in the Thief and the Guardian sub forum about how they fair against Lichs. What came up so far:

Thief
Depends on the surprise factor. If the thief sees the Lich coming, they say it isn’t much of an issue to deal with. But if the Lich surprises the Thief it is likely that the thief will be one or two shot. One guy even wrote this:

Vornollo.5182:

Stealths and Blinds from D/P make Liches almost a cakewalk though.

Guardian
Their responses were actually more differentiated. Some said you cannot 1v1 a Lich, others said it is easy to los and kite Lich and others said, if you have sword and focus you can melee 1v1 a Lich all day. Not sure yet what to think of it.

Fay.2357:

Again, I’m sure you’re going to reply with something along the lines of ‘oh, but it doesn’t take 100% team effort to do that, just a single good guardian or mesmer can go toe to toe with a lich no problem.’ Before you say that, prove it.

I am working on it. I have no practice at guardian and suck at being thief, so I will stick with Mesmer. But so far I had no real encounters with Lich worthy of showing (cuz the outcome wasn’t really depended on me) and one huge fail, where I ran in every AA of the Lich^^

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

Btw: I still prefer to fight a Lich on point than a medi guardian or a warrio^^

Hey Thieves,

I come here with a question. In the Mesmer forums I was claiming that Thieves have little issues dealing with Lich Form. However that was only my personal imrpession after playing Necro and being defeated by Thieves (mostly D/P build) while in Lich Form in PvP.

So from the view point of Thieves: Is it true that you can easily deal with Lich Form? Or do you have trouble? Is it more of a 50/50 thing? Or does Lich form usually destroy you?

Hey Guardians,

I come here with a question. In the Mesmer forums I was claiming that Guardian have little issues dealing with Lich Form. However that was only my personal imrpession after playing Necro and being defeated by Guardians (mostly meditation build) while in Lich Form in PvP.

So from the view point of Guardians: Is it true that you can easily deal with Lich Form? Or do you have trouble? Is it more of a 50/50 thing? Or does Lich form usually destroy you?

I agree for the case of Mesmer. Mesmer could 24/7 counter Lich if they build for it. But as Fay says, that is unlikely… cuz you would be kinda useless otherwise. I had for a long time a Phantasm build, that included the focus reflection trait. But yeah, I grew out of it^^

Is it hard for a Mesmer to fight a Lich without Moa? Yes most certainly. But that doesn’t mean there are no other counters to Lich than Moa (see my previous post, especially guardian and thieves).

I honestly had no idea how Mesmers feel about Lich up until this thread. I met Lichs many times in WvW and in PvP and always felt I can keep them under control, if I am careful. And usually I don’t use Moa. But apparently Lich is seen as an unstoppable machine of destruction that only Moa can keep in check…

@Calliope:
I agree it isn’t easy. Depending on build and situation, it can be a challenge for Mesmers. But nonetheless, Lich has counters and Moa isn’t by far the only thing keeping Lich in check, as some would claim.

@ASP:
That is not my argument. And I think you know that.

There are two issues here. The one is about the state of Lich, the other is about the state of Moa. While many here claim there are nearly no counters to Lich Form except Moa, I say there are counters. And I have tried to explain that. The proclaimed (but imo false claim) existence of no counters is brought forward as one argument against a possible Moa change/nerf.

The other issue here is about Moa itself and how it can be countered. Also this is partly brought forward as a reason that Moa should not be nerfed. I agree that I can not that easily refute this, for I have not much personal experience using Moa.

Then there is another issue. People claim that Moa should counter Lich. And my suggestion actually does not change that. Mesmer already counters Necros in most instances. What I ask in my suggestion is to give Necros a bit of a chance to actually do something after their Elite was denied. As Necro, not as Moa, the Necromancer might stand at least a little chance. Other than that a successful Moa in the current state is in most cases a dead Necromancer. This is too strong of a contrast imo.

@Fay:
Okay, the lock down comment was really wrong wording from me. What I meant was, to have the Lich so occupied, that he basically is rendered useless. But yes, it is beyond ridiculous to say (and mean^^) you can lock down a Lich as Mesmer in the traditional sense.

But why are you now using semantics concerning counters? What constitutes a “counter” to your definition? If my damage is nullified, I understand this as a counter. Because dmg (the only “utility” Lich Form has) is nullified.

And the low attack frequency of Lich allows for reapplying blindness or X amount of blocks to be very effective. And yes, standing in blinding powder is stupid. Moving out of it is a no-brainer. But it is often enough to stop one or two projectiles. And it’s not like it can’t be reapplied or is the only source of blindness. If we keep observing D/P thieves, they can imob you with short bow from stealth and then blinding powder you. Don’t let me now explain every single strategy that can be used to deal with Lich.

Also have you fought competent guardians with Lich? Multiple blind applications (GS#3, Focus #4 + bounces, traited F1) and have reliable blocks/invulns (focus #5, Renewed Focus) and Aegis.

Both btw. Thief and Guardian, have good chances to kill you, while your damage is nullified. You can try to still do damage to someone else during this, but likely chances are, you might not even hit something and go down…

F3 shatter has basically the same effectiveness on Lich than on any other foe with Shattered Concentration. With F4 already one reflected Lich attack can screw things over for the Necromancer. Also you can still stand in the line of the projectile, even if the Lich targets someone else (not easy though).

On many maps there are obstacles that can easily be used to LoS Lich without “running away”. In 1v1 situation forcing the Lich to turn actually is a valid and effective strategy.

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

Ultimately, again, this all adds up to moa being the only actual effective and realistic counter to lich form. Everything else either doesn’t actually work if you apply just a bit of critical thinking to it, or involves losing the fight one way or another.

No. Meditation Guardians are actually quite capable of countering Lich. They are mobile, meaning they can charge the Lich even if he positions himself advantageously and have a high dmg output while in the same time they can deny Lich damage. Same goes for thieves. Neither are Mesmers without Moa defenseless against Lich form, nor is it the case that Moa is the only counter to Lich. As I explained, Guardians and thieves can quite handy counter a Lich without even having to go out of their way.

Are you telling me that as Mesmer you actually commonly lose against Lich when he focuses you back?

Again, it is fine if ppl disagree with me on the need to nerf Moa. But claiming Lich cannot be countered is wrong or all my PvP experiences as Necro and Mesmer stand in contrast to the rest of the PvP community.

EDIT:
I must admit btw that it is fun to cancel lich with moa and then actually lock down the Necor and slaughter him^^

@Fay
The common IP power shatter for instance has a 4s (or so) reflect. Also CCing a lich is a thing. With just F3 (again talking IP power shatter) you will likely daze him. Abusing LoS is the most common counter or just meleeing the lich and moving through him to force him to turn also puts the Lich in a tough spot. Those are all no hard counters of course. And nobody actually claimed you could effectively lock a Lich down (well except with Moa of course). Also non-Mesmer counters to Lich are available to other classes. Most commonly I as a Lich am countered by Guardians (blocks/blinds) and D/P theives (Black Poweder: blinds). It ain’t half truths, those are things I experience all the time when I use that Elite.

I was playing yesterday and today PvP matches as Mesmer again. I used IP power shatter GS and Sword/Focus and as Elite Moa. I did this to test the claims of Lich being borderline impossible to counter without Moa and how hard it actually is to land Moa.

And as I remembered from before: Lich, when unattended, just destroys everything. But when even just one capable player focuses the Lich, the party for him is mostly over. I do not know where the ideas of unconquerable Lich come from, but in my experience that isn’t so hard.

@Moa Morph Effectiveness:
But more importantly: How easy/hard is it to use/hit Moa. I remember 2 times, where Moa failed. One was on a ranger, who just avoided it with a random dodge. The other one was on a necromancer, when a guardian had blinded me. Other than that, if the enemy team had a necro, I focused him right away and always made that Lich go away. Of course this is only after 2 days of testing and the result might be different after more testing. But I felt like cheating using Moa^^

Especially when the foe is Moa’d and you lock him down with Focus and sword, you can just snipe a target. Which I did repeatedly.

@Topic:
I also like keenlams idea. I like it even better than my own Here again, what he wrote:

keenlam.4753:

My suggestion is that, since transformation elites usually last longer than 10s of Moa.
When you get Moa’d, you will still go back to your transformation after 10s instead of going all back to normal form.
For example, to clarify, u go Lich form, a mesmer moas you when you’re already 3s in your elite form, you become a moa for 10s, then after that, you get back to your Lich Form for the remaining 17s.

I think it would be a fair change. Not sure if Anet has the code sorted out to do it or not yet though.
To compensate for this change though, Polymorph Moa cooldown has to reduce to match the lowest transformation cooldown currently in the game, that is, 105s to make it more effective to “temporarily” counter enemy transformation for 10s.

The thing is, if the Mesmer is competent, this change might be even a buff to Moa. Because if you are good, you can kill the necromancer after you moa’d him and still can use it more often.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Couple of problems with this post. First you and TyPin are remarking on the unreasonable attitudes found in this thread, yet you frequently respond to that variety of post. There are a number of reasonable posts you somehow overlook in your quest to move the conversation forward.

Is there a moving forward? There were some suggestions about when Moa wears off you might turn back into Lich. But there was no further reaction to it. I did in fact respond to the reasonable posts. And I accepted the opposing positions, which weren’t based on falsehoods. However, there was no further reaction to that other than funny baseless remarks, like the one from Windwalker.

Daniel Handler.4816:

This post makes me sad and annoyed. If you want to broadcast your opinions perhaps a bulletin board will be more useful, it will talk back to you less and doesn’t mind any vitriol. I understand that this is the Internet and you think this is fun, but what does it do for all the people who just want to have casual conversations without crap like this.

The reason why I respond the way I respond is easy to understand. I am getting annoyed with ppl that base their arguments on falsehoods and even don’t really read my posts, but still respond to them inadequately. Even after I have focused my attention on those calmly, those fallacies come up again. Why should I invest in the conversation, when widely there is no interest in it. The constructive posts don’t get deeper discussed and instead more and more people, who base their positions on falsehoods and fallacies, come into this thread.

I personally don’t think it is fun. It is actually quite sad. If ppl wanted a casual discussion, they can have it. Casual but does not mean to shut down one’s opinion by promoting falsehoods and contributing to logical fallacies… repeatedly.

Okay, many bring up, that the PvE farmers all have an advantage due to ascended armor. This is technically true, but I doubt it really comes into effect. RNG in dmg has more effect than the actual ascended advantage.

The normal WvW player, the ones who also would have access to guard stacks, mostly have ascended trinkets and weapons. They only lack in ascended armor. What is the stat difference between this mix of ascended-exotic and pure ascended?

1st attribute: 14
2nd attribute: 11
3rd attribute: 11
Armor: 47

Summing all together amounts to not even 100 points in difference. You are really upset that hours and hours of PvE farming give such a tiny advantage? This is ridiculous. For ages the WvW veterans said this difference is negligible. Now that you lose guard stacks you cry about not even 100 points stat difference? Get some perspective dudes.

Also some WvW player said they “had to buy” legendary? Why waste your money on smth mostly cosmetic, if you are truly worried about that stat difference. If you have money to buy legendaries, you have money to buy stuff for ascended armor.

@DevJD:
You might be roamer if you win your duels and cap some camps. But this is something that really isn’t that impressive. If you can’t contribute to your server than you might as well not be there. Yes your guild can make +5 supply. But you can also invest in +5 and then you have +10. It isn’t a concept too hard to grasp. But you said it yourself. You seem more worried about your personal performance in insignificant duels. If you really do not have use for any other WvW buff, then I am not sure what you actually do in WvW…

EDIT:
Oh, you’re a warrior. Lol. All right. The warrior is one of the profession, that really is in need of those buffs (sarcasm). Wow… really? This is pathetic.

nearlight.3064:

I think its interesting seeing how the offhand meta has shifted in regards to mesmer. Earlier on pistol and focus were the top choices, however pistol became more alligned with phantasm builds and focus got kinda nerfed with the temporal curtain pull icd.. so then everyone started using torch on power builds for the stealth.

That being said, do you guys think that shield could supplant torch for chronomancer builds? Its phantasm is probably more useful than the iMage for a power build, though not too stunning damage wise, and tides of times could be a really potent stun in teamfights. the loss of stealth may be problematic, but the 2 blocks per 30 seconds is still a nice boost to survivability.

I think the shield might have use for lockdown builds in solo use but other than that I believe it will be more a team weapon. The constant slow application and alacrity is nice… but if you go chronoshatter I think you still would be better off with “traditional” setups. But well, nobody really knows…

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Why do you take my trolling so serious, when I even say I trolled? Rofl. Someone feels to overly justify himself. Afraid your point isn’t valid enough so you have to even respond to troll posts?

Nonetheless. Since you feed me: My original suggestion completely counters Lich. And it helps the Mesmer, being protected from the ultra strong Moa, which for some reason turns at 50% Mesmer health into a killer machine. Or if the Mesmer is, for some impossible reason after casting Moa from stealth, still over 50% health, the lack of Moa helps the Mesmer kill the Necro. Cuz without Moa he cannot simply charge in unspeakable distances with #5.

I only wanna help the poor Mesmers and protect them from the repercussions of Moa. When infact they have no other means to counter the total OPness of unbeatable Lich.

Thrashbarg.9820:

(okay, I know, that’s pessimistic and reactionary, I’m probably just bitter that I didn’t get invited to any of the betas, yeah, that’s probably it)

I was invited, but I refused out of loyalty to the rest of my guild. Nah… I wasn’t. Or was I? Mesmeriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiized!

@Topic:
Well, well, well, someone has been time traveling (see what I did there? * hinting to signature *). Seriously… yes they upgrade automatically, but still can be significantly boosted with the power of ultra protected dollies. I dislike too that you cannot stop the upgrade by dolly slapping. But we still have to actually see how it will turn out. But I guess there are always ppl, who see dark clouds on the horizon.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Why do people even want the Applied buffs? Since everyone except newbies have them, removing them does nothing, since it applies to everyone, except newbies. They only make it easier for people to kill newbies. Why would you want to make it easier to kill newbies? Why would you need more of an advantage against newbies?

I suspect they wanna hide behind poor arguments to hide their own lack of skill and/or build crafting.

Since those buffs were around, it basically lowered the diversity of used builds, not increased it. Before ppl had to make conscious decisions about if they wanted to take the risk or not to go full zerker. With the buffs, especially applied fortitude, the risk is considerably smaller and the need for a decision here decreased considerably.

If ppl demand rewarding the loyal player, they should focus on things that actually make sense and not on such a useless buff, which basically removed diversity both in builds and usage of WvW points (cuz all went first for guard stack buffs).

urieldhynne.2743:

This is unfair for who played WvW for long time […]

While I understand your disappointment. This is still a computer game with a prizing model that hugely profits from new purchases of the game. So well, they will focus on getting more ppl into GW2 than keeping all the old players content…

@Windwalker:
Lol, did you contradict yourself on purpose? Well, before I address your contradiction:

Windwalker.7421:

[…] As others have said, it has nearly no counter and absolute cheese damage.

Do not come back at me with falsehoods. You might disagree with me, but do not so based on falsehoods. Lich form can be countered in many many ways. And Mesmers are naturally equipped with several tools that can counter Lich (without Moa). I have addressed this issue already several times throughout this thread. And Mesmers aren’t the only ones who can counter Lich quite handy. Medi guradians and D/P thieves are quite good at it too.

Now to the contradiction (paraphrasing):
I say: “Moa Morph shouldn’t turn a Lich to Moa, but only back to being necro.”
You say: “No, don’t do that. Lich is too strong and Moa should counter Lich” (what it still does with my suggestion). “Also, Moa can easily run away or even kill me.” (Moa wouldn’t be there in my suggestion^^)

So Moa is actually buffing the Necromancer? But you said it should be a counter? With Lich I am unlikely to kill a Mesmer (that is aware of me, lol). But to your account, as Moa, I am? So how is my suggestion bad? Or are you on the necromancers’ side in this discussion.

Okay, I’ll stop trolling now (the falsehood argument but still stands).

EDIT:
Btw, all Mesmers I know personally, who don’t use Moa, do so based not on the “low” success rate of Moa (seriously, lol) but because they consider Moa itself a cheese skill… But well, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal^^

@Menaka:
Yeah Fay has addressed you response already. I wouldn’t have said anything different.

Hm. Interesting. I expected that more would prefer Sw+T. I like it too, but I do not like that this setup makes me wanna go melee more often^^ So I die to random pAoE burst of Warriors for instance. I guess it also comes down to what situations you have to face the most. And this can be different from server to server, from time to time. And yeah, it might be also a matter of personal play style.

I personally don’t think Sw+T improves my abilities very much… well and I am a little staff fanboy^^ I had recently a duel with a pesky P/D condi thief… and while I still lost, I performed better with Staff than with Sw+T… maybe it was due to better range.

But it is right, that with HoT things might really changes… thing is… I am contemplating to go Chaos instead of Dueling in HoT and try some shatter lockdown variation with the most awesomest staff trait eva Just not sure, if the trait can make up for the low clone production…

I have seen many video where Shatter Mesmers roam with Greatsword and Sword + Torch. I personally find this setup not optimal for me. I still use Greatsword, but also use Staff. The reason for that is simple. I wanna have more mobility, both in and out of combat.

Yes I have one stealth less, but on the other hand it is easier for me to kite melee builds. This allows better disengagement imo. Also it is a bit easier to stack vulnerability on your foe with simply Staff AAs.

And I can also switch the Sword trait for Manipulation Range trait and get some amazing “range burst”. And I always like the question, if I find other players along the way and we are traveling somewhere: “How do you blink so often?”

How do you guys prefer to roam? What do you think are the benefits of Staff over Sw+T or Sw+T over Staff?

Menaka.5092:

lujate.5432:

Menaka.5092:

We’re not talking about defensive abilities or mechanics, 2500 HP is raw, pure buffer. It allows you to survive one more mistake. And it’s gone. So, you either drop some damage to get back that “buffer” or you learn to make less mistakes.

OTOH, your opponent is losing the Guard Killer stat bonus.

Yep. That’s 100 less power, about… 5% of the power in a zerk build? 2500 HP is over 15% of our total health in a full zerker build…

What logic is that? Why does the lost vitality not matter for your opponent? Don’t you deal damage to him too? You lose your buffer, he loses his buffer. Both of you can make less mistakes. BTW: On full zerker gear you will probably win over all offensive stats. If that is the case, you can go now for some more defensive gear and get your buffer back.

Also the percentages of power/malice and vitality loss are irrelevant. Relevant is the actual damage and HP loss.

This suggestion wouldn’t work. Not only is there the issue with different time zones, the other is with maybe NA players playing in EU, because they might have friends there or something or the other way around. Also non EU/NA players might also wanna play on either EU or NA. Also there are those ppl who have different work schedules. They might only be able to play in night time. Now ANet is to limit their game content, because they happen to have another time table than the rest of the players? That is simply out of the question.

zengara.8301:

Back to my question, if you could get more points during 12:00-03:00 (server time) or something like that, would it in anyway make the game worse for the players who are on other geographical regions of the world?

Yes it would. It would basically say: No matter how much you do here in WvW, your efforts will benefit your server less than the more privileged player’s efforts during “day”.

@nightblood:
No, I don’t believe they will add additional stats to gear. The gear will simply become more powerful (the gear attributes get stronger). So a 00266 Zerker Ele (who actually become a ‘00666’ Zerker Ele) would have significantly less HP and Healing Power than she has now. Toughness would be a bit more even. But she would also have significantly more Power, Crit Chance and Crit Damage than now.

So why not give up some of the extra offensive stats gained for some defensive gear? There, “problem” (it wasn’t a problem to begin with, just a new meta) solved. No need to streamline all gear with more attributes.

The only obstacle I see is that ppl might have to reinvest in new gear. Hopefully ANet will offer something for WvW players in this regard, especially getting expensive runes out of your WvW gear would be appreciated by the community, I believe.

I really really like WvW. But lately I feel less invested. Before mega servers I could still tell myself that with WvW I help my world get stat bonuses. But now that really doesn’t count any more, I guess.

So my question to the community is: How can WvW become more significant to the whole of GW2?

Right now you simply WvW for the sake of WvW. There is actually no other reason. You are neither defending you realm from anything nor gain anything else from conquering the enemy territory except an event reward.

So what could actually motivate the war in the mists except of just offering more personal rewards? How could we include the effects of the WvW war state more into the actual world of WvW?