I might have to debate on the validity of flipping here being a “service”. The demand is for the items, not the “service”. With or without the “service” the demand remains the same.
It is a service. It gives people who want to buy/sell lower/higher prices. There are people who are willing to sacrifice a bit of money so their transactions happen immediately, and flippers provide a service by reducing the spread.
You completely misinterpret the word “demand.” There is demand for instant transactions at the cost of some gold as evidenced by the sheer fact that sell orders sell and buy orders fill. This is separate from the demand for the actual item, which you refer to.
Quite frankly, I don’t foresee Anet’s not going to do anything about flipping. Wealth inequality in itself isn’t a massive problem some posters make it out to be (Many players actually don’t place a significant emphasis on extrinsic rewards. i.e. the Explorer, the Socializer, and the Killer Bartle gamer archetypes, as opposed to the Achiever archetype), and many of the solutions proposed by people are cumbersome, hard to implement, affects everyone negatively, or a combination of the above and simply not worth the dev-time when this game has so many other pressing issues.
In the end, flipping is a service. People spend money for convenience. This cannot be denied. As long as there is demand for this service, it will remain profitable. It’s the same as getting tipped for portal JPs or being paid to run people through dungeons in GW1.
If you truly believe flipping shouldn’t be so profitable then, there’s far more efficient methods to combat this as a player than expecting Anet to do something through forum posts.
1. Encourage people to flip more. The more competition there is, the less profitable flipping becomes.
2. Encourage people to be more patient. The more people who are willing to wait a few days to sell/buy items, the less profitable flipping becomes.
If you can get a game-wide movement going, great for you, you’ve found many like-minded people who think it is a problem and through your actions, will easily make flipping not worth the time.
For your reference, if you want to get an idea of an example of a Bartle breakdown of population : http://blog.gamerdna.com/2008/10/17/bartle-gender-and-wow/
Oh yea, scraps. That’s what I meant, hehe. Thanks!
Just a few tips for people in this thread.
1. For Jade Maw, simply keep your pet stowed. Stay out of combat, it’s very easy to do. Stick on crystal refreshing duty.
2. For Griffonrook, keep your pet passive. You won’t get into combat if your pet gets attacked. You only go into combat if your pet attacks.
Pet stowing during combat will be nice. However, suggestions that pet stowing should give you some additional powers are pretty silly and will never happen.
Just wondering, can we turn in Kite Fortunes even after the Bazaar is done?
That is my point. How long will this game survive is it becomes TP Wars 2?
Wanna bet 100G? =) That a significant portion of the population simply does not care enough about maximum efficiency gaining of wealth to turn into TP Wars 2?
This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?
But one of the points of this thread is that TP flippers don’t actually have to put much work in themselves.
Then you don’t know anything about what is involved in TP flipping.
If flipping was so easy → more people will flip → flipping itself becomes less efficient due to more competition.
Perhaps the solution is to encourage more flipping =).
Long run investments are lots of fun when you make a profit!
.
FTFY
There’s nothing fun about me losing 60% of the value invested in SAB skins ;(
I know how you feel bro. I thought it was a sure bet. Boy was I wrong.
Because I actually want to play a game(called killing monster). What’s the point of me running dungeon when I can do nothing and turn 700 gold into 1200 gold. Which apparently just happened to me in this 2 week.
Tell me what’s the point of me spend 1000 hours killing monster in diablo3, when the reward is so crappy I make much more money in 10 hours flipping the auction house.
I actually want to go out and kill monster. But the reward is so bad, I might as well just sit in the auction house all day.
I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. But when it is much more rewarding to play the auction house, it make the other content pointless.
Uuuuh.
Do you enjoy playing the game? As in, the intrinsic rewards for playing games?
I do. Which is why I WvW and PvP a ton. I’ve spent hundreds of hours in it, because I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. Because I play the game to play it, not for the rewards I get for playing it.
My reference was from GW1 where there was no TP and everything was done player to player. They went from that model to the TP model. Granted there are also positives that that system generates, I don’t find it solely a negative.
The GW2 TP model is far superior to the GW1 model. Great gold sink, convenience, less potential for scamming, etc. And obviously the developers agree with me here.
As far as drop tables, my reference is from GW1. If I wanted a Bone Dragon Staff I could buy it from other players or I could attempt to farm one myself in Shards of Orr. If I wanted a Celestial Bow, I could attempt to get one from one of the Cantha city zones. If I wanted a Voltaic Spear I could do Slaver’s Exile. That isn’t possible in GW2 because everything can drop everything. There is no way to influence your outcome or at least narrow it down. It’s why people attempt to earn money rather than attempting to acquire a specific item they want.
Rare loot in GW2 works exactly the same as GW1.
If I want a Final Rest, I could buy it from other players or I could attempt to farm one myself from SB. If I want Charged Lodestones, I can farm CoE or buy it off the TP. If I wanted Vials of Blood, I’d farm karka in Southsun, or buy it off the TP.
There are things obtained through pure RNG (i.e. runes) but GW1 had those too (i.e. Insignias, random anniversary minis). Loot in GW2 is very similar to GW1. Take off your nostalgia goggles.
PS bought my Voltaic Spear in GW1 with gold I earned from CoF farming because I couldn’t be bothered with Slaver’s Exile. Gold = options.
EDIT: GW2 is even better since dungeon token system = guaranteed rewards instead of the pure RNG that was GW1’s high-end skins.
(edited by Ursan.7846)
Not necessarily but the TP exists because there is no player to player trade ability. A player can’t trade a less desirable item for a more desirable item except through a monetary exchange.
Player to player trade ability doesn’t exist precisely because Anet implemented the TP, not the other way around.
As well as the fact that one cannot go out into the world and farm for a specific item drop. If I really want a Crystalline Sword I have to purchase it off the TP because of the way the drop tables work I am unable to go to a specific area and attempt to earn one by farming. If the latter were true, I don’t think we would have seen so many people flock to things like CoF P1 to earn coins. It may even help spread out the population into more maps.
I don’t understand what “drop tables” do which makes you “unable” to farm something.
Many rewards in this game have pretty specific ways to earn it. Karma/Dungeon/Ascended/Exotic equipment, for example, all have pretty specific ways for you to obtain them. You know what the problem is though? People who don’t like doing X activity, but still want XY reward get shafted. I don’t like doing dungeons, yet I really like the look of Arah staff. That’s why gold is great. Gold gives you options, since there are many activities in this game which earns you gold (no, TP flipping isn’t the only method) and allows players to do what they want to earn rewards instead of ferretting them through specific content he/she may/may not like.
Let me rephrase that, I would argue that perhaps the “best” rewards should not be purchasable but rather earned.
This is highly subjective, no? BiS gear can’t be purchased. Dungeon/karma gear can’t be purchased. A good chunk of minis can’t be purchased. I’d say half the backpieces that exist can’t be purchased.
For some of the items you mentioned, yes that is exactly how it works and I find that a good thing. However precursors, legendaries, gem store skins are not in the same category.
This is a problem because….? Do you wish to completely remove the ability for players to purchase items from other players with gold?
^ That’s true enough, Ursan, but we should also remember that for many players, they play games to get AWAY from that kind of inequality. Video game worlds are supposed to be a place where you can be someone you aren’t, where the playing field is (more or less) equal and everybody can have fun. If you’re someone who’s stuck in a dead-end job where people who earn much more than you can basically treat you like crap all day, do you really want to come home and log into a world where wealthy players are also doing their best to concentrate wealth in their own hands so they can also look down on you and show off all the nice things you’ll never have?
Serious question. Does others’ show of wealth really bother you that much?
If he’s actively shoving the fact that he has a ton of wealth in-game down your throat , then you are most likely a far, far better man than he is.
If he’s not but if you’re still somehow “inferior” (you’re not. In a 1v1 you will have the same stats and you will probably kick his kitten . Do you feel inferior to some dumb jock who wears a ton of bling?), then there is absolutely nothing preventing you from applying yourself and working the TP for money also.
Yes, because wealth disparity has never been a significant economic problem before.
In real-life? No, I never said that. It’s obviously a problem in real-life.
But when using real-life examples for analogies, one must keep in mind why inequality is a bad thing in real life.
Poverty in real life has very adverse effects on the population, such as health issues, lower productivity, high crime rates, restricted access to education and the opportunities it represents, etc… Wealth inequality leads to more poverty, since the poor does not have the basic resources in order to secure a better future for their children, who have a high possibility of leading to more of the same.
None of that really applies to a virtual world. You don’t have to dedicate a significant amount of your time to sustenance (there is none.) There is nothing that bars you from obtaining skills in order to succeed (Nothing is preventing you from Flipping, or CoF 1ing.). Lack of money does not impact your “productivity” because the BiS cannot be bought and exotics are reasonably inexpensive.
If you sincerely think that wealth inequality in a video game has the same amount of negative impact on the population as wealth inequality in real-life, you’re severely misinformed.
They both are means of players to ascertain disproportionate amounts of wealth over any other in game activities. Inflation (macro) is not the only problem the economy faces.
Inflation is a far more significant (an actual economic) problem then Joe not being able to afford dyes and skins Peter can.
I made the very same arguments about CoF p1 farming. That it was not good for the game, not my personal situation, but the game as a whole. It was a similar situation where the profit potential was noticeably disproportional to anything else in the game (ofc except trading). This historically creates more negative effects than positive ones.
There’s a huge difference between CoF 1 and Flipping though. CoF 1 creates gold, and adds it to the economy, which potentially creates inflation (whether it actually does or not, no one here knows). Also people doing CoF 1 isn’t doing a “service” to anyone else, while flippers do.
Objectively speaking, they are two very different issues.
The real source of the problem isn’t powertraders on the TP, it’s poor, ignorant people that complain ….
Complaining is one thing (and is totally fine), but the air of moral superiority that some people put on is pretty obnoxious.
“These people paying for convenience? OBVIOUSLY getting swindled out of their money by flippers.”
Seriously people. Many people knowingly pay for convenience, they don’t need you to patronize them.
Yes, in Fractals you can change a number to increase the difficulty of the Fractals. Gambits are completely different, however, in that you activate a specific condition. For example, completing the challenge without being able to dodge.
Oh that’s super interesting. Thanks for the information!
Nothing prevents you from doing lvl 40 fractals, but guild wars has always been a game of cosmetics (not progression). That’s what players spend time on, that’s what makes money in the gem store.
GW2 holds to a horizontal progression philosophy, but that doesn’t mean every player plays the game for that reason. That’s why the horizontal progression is so beautiful. Players who opt not to participate it won’t get penalized by having content gated to them.
The thing with limited item though is that it isn’t just wealthy players who do it. Plenty of players who isn’t “wealthy” by any stretch of the imagination can purchase and hoard these limited items.
Regardless though, in the real world, wealth disparity is an issue due to the poor lacking access to the most fundamental resources such as food/water/education, and thus have low chances of success in life, which leads to higher rates of crime, etc.
You don’t have that in GW2. The best analogy of limited-time dyes is artifacts such as the Mona Lisa. No more of it is being produced, and the actions of a few wealthy and dedicated collectors make it impossible for normal people to purchase it. But then how big of a problem is that, really? Does the lack of access to Pyre dye prevent player A from doing lvl 40 fractals?
It probably wouldn’t have that much effect, but I would consider that as unfair profit.
I don’t argue that it is. I’m just saying that whatever “impact” you saw on gw2spidy was after the information went public.
I have heard about price creeps in certain circumstances before news came out, such as trading in T1 mats for supply box.
That happened after the news came out.
Whether inside trading happens or not, we will never know. However, with the size of the TP it’s pretty difficult to imagine insider trading having any significant impact on the TP itself.
If you have studied sociology at all, that is one of the fundamental flaws in the capitalist system. Many academics agree that the “infinite resources” or “unlimited opportunity” ideology is flawed. This is 2013, not the 20th century.
There’s no one that can say “no, you can’t have this”, but they can sure put up barriers to hinder your pursuit of that object.
Well, yes. Thankfully though this flaw doesn’t exist in GW2.
(edited by Ursan.7846)
Does facial hair count?
these points are accurate, the problem is.
flipping profit is limited by 3 things, skill of the flipper, capital, and volume of sales
every other activity is limited by time, supply and demand.I think the problem is the liquidity flippers offer is not worth the effects of having such a large disparity in earning potentials per time invested in a game.
What are the pros/cons of liquidity flippers offer?
Pros: high volume of transactions, buyers/sellers will buy/sell their wares faster
Prices are more stable, buy/sell orders are closer to equilibrium price.
What are the pro/cons of a large disparity in earning potential of flippers?
Pros: There’s a great, skill-based method to earn money in game.
Cons: He’s way more rich than you are.
Now, is that a problem? If you believe in wealth equality, perhaps. But ultimately, the conclusion is that flippers do not actually “harm” the economy in any way, shape or form. You can complain about wealth disparity, that is your subjective opinion. But to argue somehow that flippers somehow damage the economy is to be simply misinformed (as many have tried to argue in this thread.)
Several misconceptions in this thread
1. Flipping does not “generate” gold. It destroys it through transaction fees. There’s no gold introduced to the economy through flipping, hence there’s no danger of inflation.
2. Flippers earn their money by doing people a service by a. giving players who want to sell instantly, a higher buy order and b. giving players who want to buy instantly a lower sell order. The buyers/sellers who deal with flippers are knowingly losing gold for convenience.
3. Flippers do not increase or decrease prices. It simply drives prices to the middle point between buy/sell orders.
Will there still be a Karma cap of a million? (or so I’ve been told there was one, sitting on hundreds of different kinds of karma jugs in bank so I don’t overcap and incase my alts need karma)
I can confirm that there is no Karma cap of million. I’ll even provide you a screenshot, if you wish (can’t right now, at work =3)
Yes, it is supposed to be difficult. The problem is that it requires specific builds and that it is easier to beat solo than grouped. In a game built around groups and social play. The scaling in the instance is insane and just too high.
Truly difficult content should require specific builds. Specific builds that work require a great understanding of your class, what the challenges are contained in the content, and lots of strategizing/preparing prior to the content. This is good. This requires players to give a lot of thought into their builds. (In fact, look at some of the speedrun vids of CoF 1 or Lupi. Some of the innovation and thought that goes into those group compositions is truly amazing, such as a recent discovery of using a Ranger in CoF 1 speedruns.)
This arguably goes somewhat against the GW2 philosophy of anything goes, perhaps. But again, that’s why they have 1. tiers of difficulty, so everyone can experience it, 2. truly difficult 5-man experience to really get loot and get rewarded (again, beating it isn’t being rewarded. In this case loot bags for better chance at Aetherized Weapons). People who enjoy difficult content does exist. I’m glad Anet threw them a bone without impacting lesser players as much (i.e. not being able to finish thus not fully experiencing AB or MF)
EDIT: IMO, I feel like one of the biggest negatives of Candidate Trials is its temporary nature. I don’t mind it, but I feel the time-pressure doesn’t allow innovation to achieve its full potential.
(edited by Ursan.7846)
Nah. I’ve not yet seen anything before T4 trials that seems so badly tested and so 100% contrary to the feeling of GW2.
All the other content, even if it was slightly bugged, was still doable by most party composition if the players were skilled. This was the first case where you really must be running glass cannon spec, or near to it, just to complete the content. Meaning if you don’t have a chara geared right, you might be completely SOL. This is the first case where your gearing and spec matters more than your skill. And that’s a bloody shame.
Anet has clearly stated that T4 Candidate Trial was going to be incredibly difficult, and will require a team with well-thought out builds and great coordination to be rewarded (And by rewarded, I don’t mean beat it. I mean to kill mobs and get loot.) You can toss in a group of 5 zerkers, I guarantee you they won’t succeed unless 1. the group coordinates well and 2. the individual players are skilled. Both specs and skills matter.
Because players have been asking for something really challenging. They delivered. Is incredibly challenging content that forces players to conform to a specific “contrary” to the spirit of GW2? Debatable. However, this shouldn’t prevent them from coming out with something incredibly difficult that really requires careful planning, because there are people who enjoy it. And that’s the whole reason why they had tiered difficulties: difficult content, but with easy modes so everyone can still experience it.
The problem isn’t whether it’s OP or not. It’s the fact that something that significantly impacts gameplay is gated behind a hefty amount of grind/luck/money (however they implement it).
I remain wary, but I won’t judge until its implementation. If it’s reasonable (Like traits. leveling to lvl 80 to get all your traits takes time, but it isn’t a massive grind by any stretch of the imagination) then I don’t see a problem. However, Anthony’s wording (recipe is quite rare…) makes somewhat pessimistic…
Solo quene doesn’t mean 1v1. It simply means a solo quene into the standard 5v5 PvP format, but you simply won’t get matched up against organized groups.
The portal is a one-time use consumable that effectively allows you to use a skill that is similar to the mesmer’s portal. We recognize thakittens a very powerful item, so the recipe is quite rare and takes considerable resources to manufacture.
And will we be able to use this skill in WvW/sPvP/Dungeons? Or just open world.
I’m incredibly wary of this. It sounds very close to P2W where you can pay a lot of gold to get access to an incredibly powerful skill.
One possibility for the quantity of end chest rewards could be based on how much of the dungeon path content you complete i.e. skipping kholer and/or troll will net you less end rewards than a path clear with him and troll killed.
I would love a system like that, actually. Great idea. But I highly doubt it’s the way they implemented it.
And to answer another question: Pristine Fractal Relics are not part of the wallet.
Why not?
Each day when you finish a unique path for any explorable or story dungeon, you’ll receive a bonus reward for completion—1 to 3 gold for explorable dungeons depending on their length and difficulty, 50 silver for story dungeons. Guaranteed coin rewards that previously dropped from bosses in dungeons have been removed in lieu of these new rewards for dungeon completion; all other drops off of bosses have not been changed. Now you have even more incentive for braving the hazards of the dungeons of Tyria!
So I used to dislike skipping bosses such as Kholer, because I always thought that the ~2 mins you spent on him was well worth the silver he dropped. But now that the silver drops are removed, is Anet encouraging skipping bosses once more?
What do you guys think.
It would still be entirely possible to control the market. I’m not saying its happening, but still entirely possible. As long as you have the capital to buy the entire current stock and continue buying for the period of time until the higher priced resell stock begins selling, assuming the price margin is high enough and prices are relatively stable all one needs to control the market indefinitely is dedication to watching the market, ensuring that none of the underpriced dusks are sold to anyone but the flipper.
Increasing the price by purchasing all the “underpriced” Dusks and re-listing them at a higher (15%) simply means that you’re decreasing demand. The prices are at what it is currently because it’s being sold/bought at a same rate. Some of your overpriced stock will sell, yes, but over a long period of time this is unsustainable since the act of increasing prices will decrease demand and the rate at which buyers buy precursors.
Is it possible? Certainly. Considering all the risks and the high bar of effort required, it is incredibly impractical. Thus, I highly doubt anyone would do it especially when there’s much easier alternatives to earn money.
So lets lake the player numbers to put that into context.
Weekly Active Users: 2.5 Million Active Users per week.
2,500,000/7=357,142 per day
10/357,142=.00002800006
2.8 e-5 is that significant?
You’re completely missing the point here. The reason why rich players cannot control the precursor market is because a significant amount of them gets produced and will compete with/undercut your prices. Just for simplicity’s sake assuming 12 Dusks gets listed per 24 hours, it means that every 2 hours an unique Dusk will get listed/sold, and most likely this will be priced competitively compared to whatever prices previously listed. If a “rich person” tried to “control” the market, say, by buying out all the Dusks listed and re-listing them for a much higher price, he will only make a profit if he sells his entire stock, priced much more expensively, within 2 hours. Or some one else will most definitely under-cut him, and more after 2 hours.
I use the word “significant” in this context. That it’s being produced at a very decent rate so that it fosters active competition on the market and ultimately leads to a fair price dictated by supply/demand. You’re completely missing the point if you think it has anything to do with the precursor/player ratio.
The point being that we don’t know what those days were subject to. For example Friday-Sunday would have different numbers than Monday-Wednesday. Event release days will have different numbers than non release days. There are a lot of things that we should consider before making assumptions and stating them as facts.
The whole point of my post is to provide evidence that, a non-insignificant amount of precursors are created and sold. Thus, it’s incredibly difficult for rich players to somehow “monopolize” and control the market. 30 unique Dusks sold even in a WEEK is still quite a significant amount.
Uhmm about 10 per day got sold for those 3 days to which he was referring in that post. We have no info about any other days.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Pile-of-Crystalline-Dust/first#post1382211
We have no accurate timestamps for these posts, but they are definitely not on the same days because there’s 18 John Smith posts in between (And John Smith does not post THAT often.)
About 10 unique Dusks get sold every 24 hours.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Attention-to-the-price-of-Dusk/page/4#post1470141
I don’t have a source, but I distinctly remember a dev saying China will be separate.
I explained why I think that, and again that was saying a fault with evon, not the players voting for Evon. Not liking Evon’s stance and mannerisms is a legitimate reason not to vote for him.
Explained or not, it’s still an attack on the integrity of an individual. Not liking his “mannerisms” and not voting for him is the exact same thing, I hope you realize. (Yes, Evon is a part of his own campaign.)
Most Kiel supporters are uneducated, and are voting only for the pretty face. But worry not, this is far from over. Evon didn’t get to where he is by quitting. I’m sure he’ll be doing something interesting to spice up this race.
You want a pretty face? Check out Evon’s first mate. What a BABE.
Typical political attacks, you can’t actually find a fault in the opposing party so you just attack the individuals in it.
I don’t like Evon because he’s just greedy.
Uh…<_<
Maybe I missed something but how’d they get to that $45 estimate? From the reddit:
“And now we know. The average price of getting a weapon ticket is equivalent to 40 black lion keys, or 3600 gems, or $45. That’s the price of one of these skins. Are you willing to pay it?”
Can someone point me to how they came to that?
I believe they’re basing off the assumption that 1. you don’t get the golden ticket and that 2. the scraps have a 25% chance.
Not very rigorous, but I imagine it’s a decent estimate.
The point is that people are paying $45 on average for an average chance at something, or they could become the outlier and spend $200 and not get the kitten thing. lol
Spend $45 on 3600 Gems.
Convert 3600 Gems to ~84 G
Purchase Aether skin off the TP without RNG (Currently ~50-60G).
Choices!
Editted to make room for the quote.
“The average price of getting a weapon ticket is equivalent to 40 black lion keys, or 3600 gems, or $45.”
45 USD.
Really?
TERA offers weapon skins for 10 dollars.
I’m not sure why the TERA comparison is needed. I’ve “purchased” up to ~$100 worth of Gems completely free through in-game cash, because I enjoy spending my time in-game and earning everything in-game.
But IIRC you can’t convert your in-game time into EMP in TERA unless they changed something since I’ve played. So the comparison is incredibly difficult to make, since they are very different business models.
How do we know compared to other class compositions? We have nothing to compare to, the TC even mentioned they have no idea what the previous ‘world record’ is.
I am saying the ranger is the ‘ride along’ here. Try replacing one of those thieves or the mesmer and see what happens. You can replace the ranger and MAYBE see a few seconds drop from the clear time.
There are plenty of CoF1 speedruns which have been captured and recorded.
(5:48)
(5:40)
For example.
And again, even if you replace a ranger and see a few seconds difference, it doesn’t change the conclusion: that rangers contribute competitively to dmg compared to other classes.
Though you seem very interested in this subject. Perhaps you can show us a video in which you replace the Ranger in that team with a necro, guard, or a 2nd mesmer and prove your point (that these classes can replace a ranger and still provide comparable DPS in CoF 1).
(edited by Ursan.7846)
The fact of the matter is, you can replace the Ranger with just about anyone else and get the same clear time results. What does that say about Ranger again?
….I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue here.
1. Can you? Can you replace the Ranger and still get the party-wide dmg buff from Frost Spirit/Spotter? I really don’t know.
2. Even if you could, it still doesn’t change the fact that Rangers can contribute a competitive amount of DPS to a group in CoF 1 compared to other classes. So I’m really unsure what kind of point you’re trying to make. Do you mean replacing a ranger and getting better, as opposed to same, clear time results?
How much gold can you get with $60?
Convert $60 into gold, buy from TP if you don’t like randomness.
What is the concept here?
That a group composition with a Ranger can post very competitive clear times of CoF 1.
The fact that 111111 is “unfun” is irrelevant.