Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

/threadwin

Just because you say threadwin, doesn’t mean anything’s been won. Do you see the game getting much harder. I don’t. Do you want to know why? Because Anet knows what side the bread is buttered on.

The thread was lost the moment someone tried to convince the rest of us that the MMORPG playerbase largely consists of people who want hard/challenging content.

Maybe they should take the words RPG out of it, and just make it a fighting game. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

Wait rpg means easy/casual? When did this occur.
Also you do realize the game was and is advertised as having action combat? Don’t say fighting game like its a dirty word. They have some of the most balanced finrly tuned responsive action systems out there.
There are things to be learned from fighting games.
Also some fighting games are fairly accessible, ever play powerstone?

You miss my point. What made a lot of RPGs hard where thinking challenges, not fighting challenges. The problem is that people who want hard stuff, they’re really looking for boss fights. Since when did RPGs become all about boss fights. I remember older RPGs we didn’t even know what a boss fight was. It was about story, and lore.

My point is all sorts of people play these games and not all of them are after challenge. In fact many aren’t after challenge. They’re after immersion, collecting, achievement point hunting (even if there’s no achievement to it), getting rich by playing the market.

You should look at the people I’m responding to, instead of taking my text out of context. Because it is a response.

Since when does everyone who plays RPGs or even most people play them for the challenge. Most people that I knew didn’t. They played the for the story.

Guild Wars 2 needs help in that department too, but that doesn’t mean that’s not why a lot of people play the game. Or to explore an fantasy world with cool stuff.

The question is do most people want challenge? I don’t think so. Did most people play RPGs to be challenged? Not in the same sense of challenge a lot of people in this thread are asking for.

Thing is this is an action rpg, that includes action and combat is a major part of the focus. If it was a turn.based rpg or rts rpg you would have a point. But its not.

And part of the reason its action based is to have a wider appeal. The combat is one of the major facets of this game and they need content that makes full use of that

Completely irrelevant to what I’m saying.

I don’t care if it’s an action massed mmoRPG or not. It’s an RPG that some people play for other reasons than just action. You’re still not looking at the posts I responded to. People are comparing this to professional football and COD.

COD as far as I know, there’s one reason to play it. To kill other players. That’s it. So yeah, that’s the focus of people who play it.

But mmoRPGs have other focuses and whether this game is turned based, or action or strategy or anything else, there are still different people playing for different reasons. You can bring up action based until you’re blue and it doesn’t change the fact that people play mmoRPGs for reasons other than the action based combat. Not just one or two people. A bunch of people.

So yeah, when you talk about wanting challenge you’ve got different groups of people who may or many not want different types of challenge. If you want to try to refuse this by saying this an action MMO go ahead. But it’s not refuting what I’m saying in any way.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BlueZone.4236:

CrashTestAuto is right and Vayne wrong. Temporary content is temporary no matter how hard you try to spin the definition of the word “temporary”.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-story-journal/

As I mentioned earlier, only festivals will continue to use the gold star UI. They will not be in the story Journal, and they will remain as temporary content that comes in each year for a period of time and then packs up and leaves when the festival has completed.

I bolded the word temporary in the quote.
Thanks for your time, everyone.

Yeah, but the festivals were always rather temporary even back in GW1. And there were a lot more of them . . .

What’s being said here is different than what’s being implied. If every MMORPG has festivals, than singling out this one as having temporary content, implying that it’s somehow bad to have, is misdirection period.

If every MMORPG has it, why is it necessary to bring up? It was brought up solely because the poster was attempting to imply it was something negative. Therefore he’s not talking about holiday festivals.

Often, context is everything.

Context is often everything, but so is jamming words into people’s mouths. I never said, nor implied, that other MMOs didn’t have seasonal festivals. In fact, I’ve explicitly said in two posts now that the seasonal festivals are justifiable. That you’re taking things I haven’t said, and used them to suggest I was implying something I outright said the opposite of, is kind of a problem.

There has been, and is, much temporary content, and the LS2 does not make that not the case. It certainly doesn’t make the problems caused by the year and three quarters prior to the LS2 go away. Four short chapters, and about half a map don’t suddenly render the majority of the content since release non-temporary, even if you choose to define “appearing once a year” as such.

So, if you’d like to address the things I say, rather than criticise me and then tell other people I actually meant something else, that’d be appreciated.

Dude, you’re killing me. This is exactly what you said:

“Guild Wars 2 is great. It’s worth playing, and very fun. HOWEVER, the update model that has been adopted is highly controversial. Much content is temporary, many fundamental changes to progression have been problematic, and the Living Story + Gem sales business model is receiving mixed reviews at best.”

You put “much of the content is temporary” right after the words “the update model that has been adopted is highly controversial”.

Presumably holiday events aren’t highly controversial. I don’t think anyone here thinks holiday events are high controversial. The controversial bit was the temporary content of the specific type doing during season one which Anet isn’t doing for season 2. They said they weren’t and they haven’t.

Say anything you want, but the context of what you said in the quote above isn’t putting words into your mouth. They’re your words. The temporary content (no longer being done) is controversial, unless you’re going to say right now that the holiday content in controversial.

This is the reason why I said your post had misinformation in it. Holiday content that is “temporary” isn’t controversial and the controversial temporary content is no longer being done.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

/threadwin

Just because you say threadwin, doesn’t mean anything’s been won. Do you see the game getting much harder. I don’t. Do you want to know why? Because Anet knows what side the bread is buttered on.

The thread was lost the moment someone tried to convince the rest of us that the MMORPG playerbase largely consists of people who want hard/challenging content.

Maybe they should take the words RPG out of it, and just make it a fighting game. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

Wait rpg means easy/casual? When did this occur.
Also you do realize the game was and is advertised as having action combat? Don’t say fighting game like its a dirty word. They have some of the most balanced finrly tuned responsive action systems out there.
There are things to be learned from fighting games.
Also some fighting games are fairly accessible, ever play powerstone?

You miss my point. What made a lot of RPGs hard where thinking challenges, not fighting challenges. The problem is that people who want hard stuff, they’re really looking for boss fights. Since when did RPGs become all about boss fights. I remember older RPGs we didn’t even know what a boss fight was. It was about story, and lore.

My point is all sorts of people play these games and not all of them are after challenge. In fact many aren’t after challenge. They’re after immersion, collecting, achievement point hunting (even if there’s no achievement to it), getting rich by playing the market.

You should look at the people I’m responding to, instead of taking my text out of context. Because it is a response.

Since when does everyone who plays RPGs or even most people play them for the challenge. Most people that I knew didn’t. They played the for the story.

Guild Wars 2 needs help in that department too, but that doesn’t mean that’s not why a lot of people play the game. Or to explore an fantasy world with cool stuff.

The question is do most people want challenge? I don’t think so. Did most people play RPGs to be challenged? Not in the same sense of challenge a lot of people in this thread are asking for.

KarlaGrey.5903:

/threadwin

Just because you say threadwin, doesn’t mean anything’s been won. Do you see the game getting much harder. I don’t. Do you want to know why? Because Anet knows what side the bread is buttered on.

The thread was lost the moment someone tried to convince the rest of us that the MMORPG playerbase largely consists of people who want hard/challenging content.

Maybe they should take the words RPG out of it, and just make it a fighting game. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

Vayne.8563:

Romek.4201:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

your way of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industrie has

when you dont have time to play enough football per week to be good than you never will play in a good team

simple – thats how things work

when you dont have enough time to play it than dont ask for the biggest rewards

Your type of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industry has. Because you think there are enough people that can spent so many hours a week playing games, and getting good at them, when in fact, most people can’t. And many people who do pay very high prices.

It’s a game. It’s not a job. It’s a bit of entertainment. Those who see games as more than they are are probably worse for the industry, because their actions often chase people away from games. The hard core people who chase people away are probably the reason hard core is dying.

Hard core players are their own worst enemy.

Actually games which bring the biggest profits are easy-to-pick-up but hard-to-master . Just look at LOL,COD,BF,Halo and other games like that . Every casual can turn on this game and have much fun but hardcore players can master these games to perfection and kill everything on their way .
Problem in gw is that we dont have any challenge for more hardcore crowd . There should be 2 living story option , story mode = easy brainless spamming 11111, and explorer mode with bosses like liadri . And casual cant say “i cant finish it nerf it pls !” but the only one problem is that hardcore players want better rewards and casual want to obtain every reward by doing world bosses or cof p1 .
But anyway just look at destiny . Leveling,story mode proces is casual friendly but end game is for true veterans(first raid was finished in 10 hours , now people finish it under 2h) and people play this game and cant stop .

Yes GAMES, not MMORPGs. The fact is there are all sorts of games and some of them are very popular…but shooters aren’t MMORPGs and people who play shooters often play them for different reasons. There aren’t likely many who play shooters to RP or to just experience the story. Like Mass Effect 2 was a shooter but it wasn’t a shooter. You could play in easy mode and enjoy the story.

Comparing COD to MMORPGs has all sorts of problems with it. There’s one thing you play COD to do and that’s kill other players. I’m pretty sure most players in this game aren’t PvPers.

KarlaGrey.5903:

I don’t see world’s top football/basketball/tennis players turning anyone off playing said sports, so……
Nor can I imagine top esport players turning people off from playing esportz………..
Also, you cannot back up your claims statistically on how many can and cannot commit, and how many just don’t feel like it, nor how many might simply not want to for reasons that are game-related.

But let me ask you this. Does the top football player play with me? Or people like me? No. They play only with people equal to them.

I don’t see those people walking onto casual fields of play and demanding people be better or get out. In fact, the whole analogy is fraught with issues.

I bet if most pro ballplayers got into a game with amateurs they’d be very gracious and supportive. They certainly wouldn’t be saying L2P noob.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BlueZone.4236:

CrashTestAuto is right and Vayne wrong. Temporary content is temporary no matter how hard you try to spin the definition of the word “temporary”.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-story-journal/

As I mentioned earlier, only festivals will continue to use the gold star UI. They will not be in the story Journal, and they will remain as temporary content that comes in each year for a period of time and then packs up and leaves when the festival has completed.

I bolded the word temporary in the quote.
Thanks for your time, everyone.

Yeah, but the festivals were always rather temporary even back in GW1. And there were a lot more of them . . .

What’s being said here is different than what’s being implied. If every MMORPG has festivals, than singling out this one as having temporary content, implying that it’s somehow bad to have, is misdirection period.

If every MMORPG has it, why is it necessary to bring up? It was brought up solely because the poster was attempting to imply it was something negative. Therefore he’s not talking about holiday festivals.

Often, context is everything.

BlueZone.4236:

CrashTestAuto is right and Vayne wrong. Temporary content is temporary no matter how hard you try to spin the definition of the word “temporary”.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-story-journal/

As I mentioned earlier, only festivals will continue to use the gold star UI. They will not be in the story Journal, and they will remain as temporary content that comes in each year for a period of time and then packs up and leaves when the festival has completed.

I bolded the word temporary in the quote.
Thanks for your time, everyone.

In that case, he’s wrong. Because he’s emphasizing that this game has temporary content as if no other MMORPG has temporary content. Since every single MMORPG has temporary content, by listing it as he does in this game, he’s implying this game is the only game that has it.

This is an argument you’re not going to win. When people referred to temporary content they were talking about content that was made to be temporary. Every single MMORPG I’ve ever played had stuff removed at one point or another. By that definition all MMORPGs have temporary content and therefore pointing out that this game has it it misdirection.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

Vayne.8563:

You don’t see how it’s false.

Watch this example.

Last year, I had a contagious disease. This year I was cured. You tell people not to go near me because I have a contagious disease. Your use of words indicated that Anet continues to put temporary content into the game, which is at the very least misleading. Misleading is misinformation, because since the start of Season 2, nothing that’s been added has been taken out.

You didn’t say Anet said they weren’t going to do the temporary content thing anymore and so far they haven’t. I’m not sure how that isn’t misleading.

So by saying “much content is temporary” (which is true, except on an extremely uncharitable reading of the tense), and not saying ANet aren’t aren’t going to do temporary content anymore (which is false, given festivals, SAB, arguably activities, and the fact that they haven’t to my knowledge said that will never do temporary content any more), I’m giving misinformation?

Yes, LS2 is “permanent” (given it goes into the gem store after two weeks and has next to know intrinsic replay value, I’d call that label generous). But that doesn’t somehow render everything else not temporary. It certainly isn’t equivalent to curing a disease.

Before you attack me for it, I know that Halloween etc. have a good reason for being temporary, which is why I said that was justifiable in my original post.

Festivals are in all games. They’re not temporary content, they’re recurring content. We had Wintersday and Halloween and the Dragon Festival in Guild Wars 1 and in the years I played that game, not one person ever called them temporary content. No one called Rollerbeetle racing temporary content even though it only appeared when the Shing Jea Boardwalk opened a couple of times a year.

A more honest way to put it would be the game used to have temporary content, that is content that was made to be taken out and never come back, and that the company has said they weren’t doing that again and they added the journal and since they said they weren’t doing it, they’ve put no temporary content into the game.

It’s an old complaint. If you said right now that you can’t search for armor by type in the trading post, you’d be wrong, even though for two years after launch you couldn’t. It’s not right to bring up something we were told was fixed, was so far fixed. It’s misleading at best.

Romek.4201:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

your way of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industrie has

when you dont have time to play enough football per week to be good than you never will play in a good team

simple – thats how things work

when you dont have enough time to play it than dont ask for the biggest rewards

Your type of thinking is the biggest problem the gaming industry has. Because you think there are enough people that can spent so many hours a week playing games, and getting good at them, when in fact, most people can’t. And many people who do pay very high prices.

It’s a game. It’s not a job. It’s a bit of entertainment. Those who see games as more than they are are probably worse for the industry, because their actions often chase people away from games. The hard core people who chase people away are probably the reason hard core is dying.

Hard core players are their own worst enemy.

The people that are saying it has no future and mention life support make me laugh. There’s no actual argument anywhere that says the game is anywhere near dying.

It’s the #10 game on Xfire. It’s the number 12 game on Rapter. It’s the number 7 game on Overwolf. It’s the #2 most searched MMORPG on google. It’s the number 2 most successful reddit. There haven’t been massive layoffs and Anet has been hiring all along. And the game is still profitable according to the quarterly reports.

Saying it doesn’t have a future because you don’t like it is ridiculous. I don’t like opera, but it probably has a future.

Does that mean it’ll be mainstream? Nope. I’m not sure that matters, though. It has a future. Enough people like it. Pretty much the end of the discussion.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t say the content is now temporary.

You can’t say any of the current content isn’t temporary. With NPE they removed content from the starting zones and from the personal story. It was permanent content. Now it’s gone. Which means, no matter how you try to wiggle out of it, it was only here — temporarily. Therefore: temporary content. Not originally intended as such, sure, but it sure as heck turned out that way, eh?

What content will become temporary next?

This is bull and you know it. That’s true of any game. The revamped starting areas levels 1-10. They changed stuff. But that was never what the conversation about temporary content was about and you know it.

This is completely disingenuous. Every MMO I’ve ever played has removed something at some point, so therefore, every MMO has temporary content by that definition. That’s not what we’re talking about with temporary content.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

Vayne.8563:

CrashTestAuto.9108:

Short answer, yes.

Longer answer… not sure.

Guild Wars 2 is great. It’s worth playing, and very fun. HOWEVER, the update model that has been adopted is highly controversial. Much content is temporary, many fundamental changes to progression have been problematic, and the Living Story + Gem sales business model is receiving mixed reviews at best.

Basically, it was a very, very good base game, the population is still good, and the game is still fun. However, a lot of the decisions that have been made since launch have been, in the opinion of many, poor. Many players have left, or are highly frustrated, and no one really knows where the game is going. If the quality of the game is going to be enough to carry it long term, especially if we see more of the same controversial decisions, I don’t know.

There’s some misinformation in this post. Much of the content WAS (not is) temporary, since the stuff that’s come out for season two is all permanent. We haven’t had temporary content added to the game since, what, March? People are living in the past and stating it as the future. The company tried an experience that didn’t work. They switched directions since.

But the rest of this is mostly true.

I don’t see how season 2 of the LS being permanent makes what I said false. That content comprises a very small portion of the content we’ve been given. The seasonal updates are still temporary (justifiably), as is SAB (being generous), heck even activities have gone from constant to being on rotation. So, even in the present tense, much content is temporary. In the broader sense of “content we’ve been given”, LS2 is a fraction of the content that has been put out.

But even looking at LS2, what has it given us in terms of permanent content? Dry Top, which is excellent, though small. Story chapters which, while nice, might as well be temporary given their intrinsic replay value is so low that ANet locked achievements for the first play through. Broken waypoints that have made playing other parts less convenient (Fort Mariner being a particular pain).

ANet have put in a LOT of work compared to what we’ve actually received. As I’ve said previously, even the permanent changes to LA involved the building of two hubs (Vigil and new LA) to give us exactly the same amount of hubs as we already had.

Heck, they haven’t even always progressed in the non-content updates without taking the same size steps backwards. In April they improved the alt experience massively with the dyes and wardrobe, then crippled it with the trait system change. Last month they massively improved the mini collection system, whilst making it incredibly difficult to actually see the mini collection.

Even Fractals, the most prominent permanent content update we’ve had, they went and reset the progress of its biggest fans for a leader board they didn’t even introduce.

I love the game, and admittedly I’m glossing over some positives, but it’s painful to watch some of the decisions that have been made since launch.

You don’t see how it’s false.

Watch this example.

Last year, I had a contagious disease. This year I was cured. You tell people not to go near me because I have a contagious disease. Your use of words indicated that Anet continues to put temporary content into the game, which is at the very least misleading. Misleading is misinformation, because since the start of Season 2, nothing that’s been added has been taken out.

You didn’t say Anet said they weren’t going to do the temporary content thing anymore and so far they haven’t. I’m not sure how that isn’t misleading.

Yes a lot of people didn’t like that the first Season of the Living Story was temporary. But since then Anet added the journal so that not only is it something you can always do, it’s something you can repeat, I’m not 100% sure why it was added at all.

You can say there isn’t enough content now because in the past they did something. You can’t say the content is now temporary.

Obviously as time goes on we’ll now have more and more content as they’re releasing stuff. The living story season 1 is definitely the reason we’re in the boat we’re in now, but it’s done and dusted. If you haven’t moved on mentally, you’ll just keep thinking temporary content is a thing.

My guild is about half female and plenty of times there’s just a room in mumble of just the girls. It’s not an all girl guild, but there are plenty of times it feels that way.

Could it be because the particle effects would cause additional lag? Imagine 30 people with those things.

Esplen.3940:

I’d always been denying it but I guess it does make sense as to why there’s an upper management in such a “small” company.

Regardless, Vayne, now there’s a good post detailing ANet’s profitability in comparison to other full-blown companies (not just games, although Maplestory is a pretty big cash cow, but apparently GW2 is larger)!

As for everyone else, $28m net income is pretty darn good for a game that’s “dying”.

I think it does more than that, because China sales/income doesn’t come under that. It’s listed under Royalties.

That’s just from the US and Europe.

Esplen.3940:

Welp, TIL Anet is 100% owned by NCSoft.

And has been since before Guild Wars 1 launched.

Tachenon.5270:

If the game was doing as well as many like to think, what was the point of megaserver and the NPE?

All businesses want more players, even if they have a lot of players. That’s normal business. You don’t say, okay we have enough players, we’re not getting more, so let’s stop.

The megaserver was for a lot of reasons. One of them was that there are a lot of servers, but not a lot of people in every zone. There were always people at big events, but a lot of people don’t like to go to underused zones.

Do you know WoW is the most popular MMO of all time, the most successful, the most populated, and people in WoW still complain about dead zones. It happens in all MMOs, so Anet fixed the problem.

On top of that, they said they didn’t want to add a lot of new areas until the megaserver was released. And it’s more efficient anyway.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Glory.1493:

Vayne.8563:

OP, there are currently three software sites I know that track MMO popularity and google trends tells you how many people have searched for a specific name.

In every single place where game popularity is mentioned, the #1 MMORPG is almost always WoW. And the number 2 or 3 MMORPG is almost always Guild Wars 2.

It’s likely Guild Wars 2 is the second most popular MMO on the market right now.

How can it not have a future?

can u give that 3 website plz i have been searched for that datas for months and only thing i know is google trends.u can send me ingame mail.ty very much!

Xfire – http://social.xfire.com/games
Raptr – http://caas.raptr.com/
Overwolf Most popular game – http://www.newzoo.com/free/rankings/top-20-core-pc-games/

There you go.

I don’t doubt GW2 has lots of players, it may well be one of the most played games out there. However, those figures don’t show revenue, I remember reading a report some time ago about cash shop revenue of various companies, I’ll see if I can find the link.

LoL was top on the list, and Swtor was even above WoW in terms of cash shop sales. Guild Wars 2 was nowhere on the top list and from some NCSoft reports it doesn’t look like the game is doing so great in terms of income, maybe I’m reading it all wrong, but the recent sales and free trial didn’t convince me that the game is doing super great.

For a game that’s on the top10 most played game, on most lists, it sure is quiet. No announcements, no discussions about upcoming content etc

I think it was Chris Whiteside who posted some links from press websites that mentioned the Guild Halls CDI, but is this enough? Those GH might appear next year (if ever) so what’s coming up in the near future?

There is nothing about new gameplay coming in the near future, we have Halloween, which wasn’t that great the second time around (Shadow of the Mad King was an awesome release though) and the next part of the LS2… Nothing really substantial to cause an uproar and lots of talking over the internet. It doesn’t have to be expansions, just <something> more than a tiny bit of new story

Actually you need to compare MMORPGs with MMORPGs. Guild Wars 2 comes in around 5 on a list of subscription MMORPGs. It’s not on the list, but from the earning report, it would slot in at about five.

How many MMORPGs were on the list you saw? WoW and what else. We know how much Guild Wars 2 earns because NCsoft released earning reports. It’s doing well even there…particularly for a 2 year old game.

Nothing happened with them. All we know is what you’ve already said. They were never implemented.

I wouldn’t actually say that were “major selling points” of this game. Instead of the game launched with a different minigame (probably due to the popularity of hutball on SWToR)…and other minigames have been added.

No idea why the ones they talked about up front were not finished.

New title is funny though.

Glory.1493:

Vayne.8563:

OP, there are currently three software sites I know that track MMO popularity and google trends tells you how many people have searched for a specific name.

In every single place where game popularity is mentioned, the #1 MMORPG is almost always WoW. And the number 2 or 3 MMORPG is almost always Guild Wars 2.

It’s likely Guild Wars 2 is the second most popular MMO on the market right now.

How can it not have a future?

can u give that 3 website plz i have been searched for that datas for months and only thing i know is google trends.u can send me ingame mail.ty very much!

Xfire – http://social.xfire.com/games
Raptr – http://caas.raptr.com/
Overwolf Most popular game – http://www.newzoo.com/free/rankings/top-20-core-pc-games/

There you go.

chemiclord.3978:

Tachenon.5270:

It’s a direct response to something you posted in this very thread, so if there’s irrelevance afoot, the source is clear.

Maybe this will help: if they tested these other things and then went ahead with implementing them, which would seem to be a clear indication that they thought these other things ‘worked’, then the notion that they tested NPE ‘and it worked’ is not particularly reassuring.

For what it’s worth, I don’t recall a developer at Arena.net claiming they “tested” temporary content. I recall their claim being that it was to make the world feel “alive” and that things were always changing.

So, yeah… I’m not quite sure I get the relevance either.

I didn’t quote Colin’s quote from another thread, but I did assume most people would have read it. This is what I could glean from what he said.

After the game was made and they were running it for a while, they noticed that free weekends weren’t turning people into players. They’d play a few levels and stop playing. There were several reasons for this, only one of which was confusion. Pacing and rewards were the other two. They didn’t feel like they were progressing, they pacing was off.

So Anet tested a bunch of stuff, specifically with the mindset of trying to figure out why the early game wasn’t sticky enough. It was obviously sticky enough for those playing now, but you know, we’re not the only people in the world.

So Anet tested tutorials and a bunch of other stuff and found that the stuff they had now, in their test, got people playing longer and for more hours.

I’m sure they didn’t test everything in the game at each point of the game’s existence. They ran into something they considered a problem and set out to solve it.

It’s what businesses often do.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DonQuack.9025:

I think a few people are missing the point.

. . . okay, level with me, because I’m not getting it. What’s the point here?

The point is the dodge tutorial doesn’t kill you and it’s very hard to die in it, because it throws you out. He’s not trying to say something bad about the game or anything. The OP is showing off after an accomplishment.

I wouldn’t have had that patience.

It’s just a fun thing to do. Good job, OP. lol

See, here I thought it was just trying to see if you could still die quickly. All the talk lately about how the NPE is “babying” new players, figured it was about ‘they can’t die’.

I made the same assumption at first. You’re not alone in that.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Many hard core players think everyone learns like them, everyone plays like them, everyone thinks like them.

I don’t think that reading a tool tip, or pressing F to interact with a bundle, or the like really qualify as, “hard core.”

If you were following the conversation, this would mean more.

I was talking about an attitude of those people aren’t good, don’t play like me, don’t go to forums, don’t ask in map chat, so they’re not good enough. It’s an attitude. It’s a bad one.

OP, there are currently three software sites I know that track MMO popularity and google trends tells you how many people have searched for a specific name.

In every single place where game popularity is mentioned, the #1 MMORPG is almost always WoW. And the number 2 or 3 MMORPG is almost always Guild Wars 2.

It’s likely Guild Wars 2 is the second most popular MMO on the market right now.

How can it not have a future?

CrashTestAuto.9108:

Short answer, yes.

Longer answer… not sure.

Guild Wars 2 is great. It’s worth playing, and very fun. HOWEVER, the update model that has been adopted is highly controversial. Much content is temporary, many fundamental changes to progression have been problematic, and the Living Story + Gem sales business model is receiving mixed reviews at best.

Basically, it was a very, very good base game, the population is still good, and the game is still fun. However, a lot of the decisions that have been made since launch have been, in the opinion of many, poor. Many players have left, or are highly frustrated, and no one really knows where the game is going. If the quality of the game is going to be enough to carry it long term, especially if we see more of the same controversial decisions, I don’t know.

There’s some misinformation in this post. Much of the content WAS (not is) temporary, since the stuff that’s come out for season two is all permanent. We haven’t had temporary content added to the game since, what, March? People are living in the past and stating it as the future. The company tried an experience that didn’t work. They switched directions since.

But the rest of this is mostly true.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DonQuack.9025:

I think a few people are missing the point.

. . . okay, level with me, because I’m not getting it. What’s the point here?

The point is the dodge tutorial doesn’t kill you and it’s very hard to die in it, because it throws you out. He’s not trying to say something bad about the game or anything. The OP is showing off after an accomplishment.

I wouldn’t have had that patience.

It’s just a fun thing to do. Good job, OP. lol

moiraine.2753:

Draknar.5748:

moiraine.2753:

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

Which is an outdated way to do things. Some people don’t have the time to do raids, should they not be allowed to work towards the best gear in some other manner, or we just resign to the fact that those that have larger chunks of time to play will be the only ones who can get the best gear? This isn’t even a skill issue, it’s a time issue. Raids discriminate people on a time-basis, rarely on a skill basis, as raids aren’t difficult content, they are just really long dungeons.

Sorry but i disagree with you.When someone doesn’t have time to do something then he doesn’t deserve to be rewarded.It doesn’t matter is it only a cosmetic item like pet,mount,toy,tittle,skin(weapon,gear) or is it an item level upgread to your gear.The effort and time that i putted in doing something hard has to be taken in account.

When i spent my time in doing difficult and chalenging content i expect to be rewarded appropriatelly.In GW2 this means i must receive some cosmetic item that only a few people will have.If casuals don’t have the time to spare to do it.Then they don’t deserve the reward.It’s that simple.Not everyone must have everything.

Doesn’t deserve? Really? Of every post in this thread, this is probably the one I disagree with the most.

It’s like saying a person coming into a computer store without the capacity to know the intracacies of computers deserves to be sold a lesser computer. This isn’t the Olympics. Not everyone buys this game to be competitive. In fact, I doubt most people buy this game to be competitive.

Anet is a business not a charity. That’s a fact. This isn’t about right and wrong, fair or not fair. This is a game. Not a competitive game either. In many ways it’s a game of chance.

You want it to be a competitive game, but then, only the best players by percentage would get the best rewards. Is that best for business? I sure don’t think so.

There are plenty of people who are really good at stuff that never get financially rewarded. Some of the best writers in the world will never be published. Why? Because they’re great at writing and bad at everything else that goes on in the publishing industry. They’re bad at networking. Bad at selling themselves. Bad at reading market trends. But they write because writing is it’s own reward.

For a competitive person, getting better IS the reward. But as far as I know you haven’t spent more on the game than anyone else and don’t “deserve” more than anyone else. Everyone who paid for this game deserves a fun experience and the chance to get rewards, whether they’re as competent at you at video games or not.

You know what would happen if all the “bads” left this game.

There wouldn’t be a game. People should think about that before they start talking about what they do and don’t deserve.

Almost by definition the best players are going to be a minority, because that best are always a minority. The top 5%. The top 10%. When you start segregating rewards so only they can get it, and give no path to others, you will soon find yourself playing alone with that 5%.

Players are their own worst enemy.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

And my experience is that there are the wikis, the forums, gaming magazines, social media platforms and the chat function in game. Anyone who’s seeking help will find help.

Okay then. I guess that must say it all. Everyone who seeking help will find help. That’s sort of my point. Not everyone is seeking help. As hard as this is for some of us to understand, some people who don’t get stuff don’t think they need help. It’s quite common, unfortunately.

They try something it doesn’t work, they give up. You’ve never met anyone like that? You’ve never met anyone who would have given up on something and after being encouraged stayed? I find that hard to believe.

The NPE is designed to help people because a lot of people don’t LIKE to ask for help. They feel they should be able to do stuff. If you don’t think that happens, or it’s common, we’ll have to agree to disagree. But I can’t imagine that I’ve met those people all my life and you’ve met none of them.

And my point is that the game don’t has to be adjusted around players who aren’t interested in playing the game but around players who want to explore but need help doing so. That’s why a tutorial and tooltips will always be superior to the NPE changes.

Okay, I disagree and we’ll have to leave it at that, because you’re never going to convince me that people that need help doing stuff are going to ask for it. Nor will you convince me we’re better off without those people.

It’s a core disagreement on who should be playing the game, and how best to help them. We’re never going to agree, so I’m going to bed. G’night.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Anet says they tested this and it worked. Are they lying?

Did they also test non-seasonal temporary content? If so, where? When? On whom?

Trait system redesign? Where, when, and upon whom was that tested?

The Personal Story revision that was delivered along with NPE? Where, when, and upon whom was that tested?

I have no idea what else they tested. I know exactly what you know.

I’m not sure how that’s relevant to the NPE comments anyway.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

And my experience is that there are the wikis, the forums, gaming magazines, social media platforms and the chat function in game. Anyone who’s seeking help will find help.

Okay then. I guess that must say it all. Everyone who seeking help will find help. That’s sort of my point. Not everyone is seeking help. As hard as this is for some of us to understand, some people who don’t get stuff don’t think they need help. It’s quite common, unfortunately.

They try something it doesn’t work, they give up. You’ve never met anyone like that? You’ve never met anyone who would have given up on something and after being encouraged stayed? I find that hard to believe.

The NPE is designed to help people because a lot of people don’t LIKE to ask for help. They feel they should be able to do stuff. If you don’t think that happens, or it’s common, we’ll have to agree to disagree. But I can’t imagine that I’ve met those people all my life and you’ve met none of them.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jana.6831:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

They may not be explaining the downstate, but it’s easier to read a single skill when you’re down and figure out what it does than four at once.

On the other hand, this is one of the changes I really didn’t like.

Instead of adding the skills to the weapon overview in the hero panel, they lock them away. Yeah… sounds rational.

So you expect people who just started the game to know about the weapon overview?
(Yeah I’m out)

I expect ANet to implement a simple tooltip or a proper tutorial to direct new players to said overview. Something like “If you ask yourself what your weaponskills or your Downstateskills do, just go into your heropanel and look them up”.
Can’t be that difficult.

Proper tutorials work for some people and don’t work for others. Nothing works for everyone. That’s why multiple teaching tools should be included.

However if you have the time and resources to implement one, you implement the one that tests shows are most effective.

Tooltips are there for the other half. If people neither use the tutorial, nor the tooltips and then quit because they don’t understand the game, then it’s entirely their fault and other players shouldn’t be crippled just because of the stupidity of a minority.
And what are those tests you’re always talking about? I never heard about someone testing this, exept the Q&A section and I don’t trust those guys, they’ve done too many mistakes in the past.

I don’t care who’s fault it is. It’s their fault and Anet’s problem. See, more players is better for the game. Turning away people who’s fault it is is exactly why hard core play is dying.

Many hard core players think everyone learns like them, everyone plays like them, everyone thinks like them. So they raise the bar so high that new people often don’t get a chance. They get abused. They get bullied. They get insulted. And they leave. That’s only a step away from what you’re doing.

These people aren’t like me, so they don’t deserve to play. How does them not playing, their fault or not, help anyone?

Sometimes players are their own worst enemies.

New players that aren’t even willing to understand the game, which was entirely possible pre NPE, aren’t neither helping the game, nor ANet because they’ll leave quickly and they wont buy gems.

You repeating something doesn’t make it true. As I’ve said elsewhere, there are people in my guild who were dreadful at the game when they started. Didn’t get it at all. If my guild hadn’t found them, they might have left already. Some of them have become quite good. What purpose does turning those people away from the game serve, besides some elitist idea that certain people should be playing these games and not others.

Many people who get turned off or turned away CAN learn and can be taught. Some, of course, can’t as well. Those people will leave.

So Anet makes the game to try to get more people playing longer. What’s your beef with that? What makes you think people who invest more time are more likely to leave?

the people in your guild were interested and engaged enough to seek a helpful guild. The people who leave in the first 15 levels, are not the same type of people.

Im all for improving retention of new players, i just dont feel that this new system will retain as man players as they will lose on the other side due to a less well designed starter experience. The game basically starts off as a random grind to level 10 with no context, random direction, and few designed explanations. I really dont think this is more engaging to a new random player overall. It may in fact be better for a subset of players who quit because of option shock, but i dont even think the majority who quit early quit for those reasons.

The problem with asking people why they quit, is because they will say something, but that doesnt mean its really the reason they quit.

Actually not everyone in my guild sought a helpful guild. Many people in my guild were helped because I offered them help when I saw them suffering or confused in the world. I’d see them going around in circles looking for a vista or whatever, chat to them and see if they needed help.

Many people solo these games. Far more people than most would believe. And many people who solo play it like an adventure game. They don’t go to wikis, or you tube or anything.

I know it’s nuts, but that’s my experience.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

You repeating something doesn’t make it true. As I’ve said elsewhere, there are people in my guild who were dreadful at the game when they started. Didn’t get it at all. If my guild hadn’t found them, they might have left already. Some of them have become quite good. What purpose does turning those people away from the game serve, besides some elitist idea that certain people should be playing these games and not others.

Many people who get turned off or turned away CAN learn and can be taught. Some, of course, can’t as well. Those people will leave.

So Anet makes the game to try to get more people playing longer. What’s your beef with that? What makes you think people who invest more time are more likely to leave?

If you are interested in a game but don’t get it, you take the help you can get, which could be tutorials and tooltips. If you don’t and you reject both tutorials and tooltips, you wont stay for long anyways.

You keep saying it and I still don’t believe it’s true. What you’re really saying is what you would do. You don’t get to talk for other people. Other people might well not go look for help. They may have never needed help in any other kind of game before. You’d turn those people away. Some might leave, some might stay. You’re just making an assumption, but you’ve yet to show any kind of evidence that this is what would happen.

moiraine.2753:

@Vayne,
Of course difficulty and role playing elements define what is the MMO genre.Most MMOs are gear based.This means harder difficulty = better loot.This can’t be denied.There are very few MMOs that have different model.GW1 and GW2 are such MMOs.
What makes for instance Rift or Wildstar better than GW2 in my eyes is that i am being rewarded with the appropriate items for my time spent doing harder modes.

If i do ranked PvP i will have the best possible PvP items.
If i do raids i will have the best possible PvE items.

I don’t mind GW2’s model where everything is cosmetic based.But places like Arah/TA:AE/FotM and bosses like Tequatl/Wurm must have better loot.Why AC gives the same ammount of gold as Arah P3?Or why AC gives more gold from SE P2?Or why FotM lvl 50 gives only 1g30s?That is the bloody lvl50 what is that piece of crappy reward?The loot tables in GW2 are just such a mess at this moment.Just throw a look on Wurm and Tequatl…They are consider the equivalent of a raid boss and still they drop….

I like GW2 a lot.I have played 4k+ hours in it.But i’m just not very happy with it’s current direction.It is just not moving in a direction where the veterans can be happy too.It is cattering mostly to the casuals.

Difficulty doesn’t define the MMO genre. You can look it up in wikipedia. You can look it up anywhere. There’s an existing definition of MMOs. It’s like saying I don’t consider a car a car, because it’s not a race car.

There are harder MMOs and easier MMOs, but the MMO genre is, and has always been evolving. It’s been getting easier and easier.

Sandbox MMOs, for example, are almost always going to be more difficult than themepark MMOs. Niche MMOs might be harder. But WoW has been dumbing down it’s game for years and years. Is WoW not an MMO?

A majority of cars today probably come with AC. Does that mean cars without AC aren’t cars?

We can’t just make up definitions to serve our own purpose.

Here’s the first two paragraphs from the Wikipedia page of MMORPG.

“Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) mix the genres of role-playing video games and massively multiplayer online games, possibly in the form of web browser-based games, in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual world.

As in all RPGs, the player assume the role of a character (often in a fantasy world or science-fiction world) and takes control over many of that character’s actions. MMORPGs are distinguished from single-player or small multi-player online RPGs by the number of players able to interact together, and by the game’s persistent world (usually hosted by the game’s publisher), which continues to exist and evolve while the player is offline and away from the game."

This matches my definition of what an MMORPG is. Any other arbitrary criteria is just that. Arbitrary.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jana.6831:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

They may not be explaining the downstate, but it’s easier to read a single skill when you’re down and figure out what it does than four at once.

On the other hand, this is one of the changes I really didn’t like.

Instead of adding the skills to the weapon overview in the hero panel, they lock them away. Yeah… sounds rational.

So you expect people who just started the game to know about the weapon overview?
(Yeah I’m out)

I expect ANet to implement a simple tooltip or a proper tutorial to direct new players to said overview. Something like “If you ask yourself what your weaponskills or your Downstateskills do, just go into your heropanel and look them up”.
Can’t be that difficult.

Proper tutorials work for some people and don’t work for others. Nothing works for everyone. That’s why multiple teaching tools should be included.

However if you have the time and resources to implement one, you implement the one that tests shows are most effective.

Tooltips are there for the other half. If people neither use the tutorial, nor the tooltips and then quit because they don’t understand the game, then it’s entirely their fault and other players shouldn’t be crippled just because of the stupidity of a minority.
And what are those tests you’re always talking about? I never heard about someone testing this, exept the Q&A section and I don’t trust those guys, they’ve done too many mistakes in the past.

I don’t care who’s fault it is. It’s their fault and Anet’s problem. See, more players is better for the game. Turning away people who’s fault it is is exactly why hard core play is dying.

Many hard core players think everyone learns like them, everyone plays like them, everyone thinks like them. So they raise the bar so high that new people often don’t get a chance. They get abused. They get bullied. They get insulted. And they leave. That’s only a step away from what you’re doing.

These people aren’t like me, so they don’t deserve to play. How does them not playing, their fault or not, help anyone?

Sometimes players are their own worst enemies.

New players that aren’t even willing to understand the game, which was entirely possible pre NPE, aren’t neither helping the game, nor ANet because they’ll leave quickly and they wont buy gems.

You repeating something doesn’t make it true. As I’ve said elsewhere, there are people in my guild who were dreadful at the game when they started. Didn’t get it at all. If my guild hadn’t found them, they might have left already. Some of them have become quite good. What purpose does turning those people away from the game serve, besides some elitist idea that certain people should be playing these games and not others.

Many people who get turned off or turned away CAN learn and can be taught. Some, of course, can’t as well. Those people will leave.

So Anet makes the game to try to get more people playing longer. What’s your beef with that? What makes you think people who invest more time are more likely to leave?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jana.6831:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

They may not be explaining the downstate, but it’s easier to read a single skill when you’re down and figure out what it does than four at once.

On the other hand, this is one of the changes I really didn’t like.

Instead of adding the skills to the weapon overview in the hero panel, they lock them away. Yeah… sounds rational.

So you expect people who just started the game to know about the weapon overview?
(Yeah I’m out)

I expect ANet to implement a simple tooltip or a proper tutorial to direct new players to said overview. Something like “If you ask yourself what your weaponskills or your Downstateskills do, just go into your heropanel and look them up”.
Can’t be that difficult.

Proper tutorials work for some people and don’t work for others. Nothing works for everyone. That’s why multiple teaching tools should be included.

However if you have the time and resources to implement one, you implement the one that tests shows are most effective.

Tooltips are there for the other half. If people neither use the tutorial, nor the tooltips and then quit because they don’t understand the game, then it’s entirely their fault and other players shouldn’t be crippled just because of the stupidity of a minority.
And what are those tests you’re always talking about? I never heard about someone testing this, exept the Q&A section and I don’t trust those guys, they’ve done too many mistakes in the past.

I don’t care who’s fault it is. It’s their fault and Anet’s problem. See, more players is better for the game. Turning away people who’s fault it is is exactly why hard core play is dying.

Many hard core players think everyone learns like them, everyone plays like them, everyone thinks like them. So they raise the bar so high that new people often don’t get a chance. They get abused. They get bullied. They get insulted. And they leave. That’s only a step away from what you’re doing.

These people aren’t like me, so they don’t deserve to play. How does them not playing, their fault or not, help anyone?

Sometimes players are their own worst enemies.

moiraine.2753:

Kythan Myr.4719:

So, I’ve been playing through the personal stories again on an alt. If Anet added a feature similar to GW1’s model where you could replay “missions” with a bonus stage and harder difficulty, would you do it? I don’t really want to complain about the new and “improved” rewards, but the various crafting bags were sure nice.

So, if they added one-time better rewards, would you be willing to play through harder personal story missions? They could add bonuses which provide better rewards too. It’s kind of like what they did with the LS and being able to go back and complete extra challenges.

For example, I was playing the mission “Close the Eye” where you had to defend while Trahearne performed his ritual to open it There were tendrils catapulting stuff at you and a small pact squad trying to survive that and the risen army coming for you. There’s all sorts of things that could be added to make things a bit more challenging and forcing the player to be more intentional about their builds and play style. They could make a challenge to not let a single pact soldier go down, or you need to destroy all three catapults before they kill Trahearne, or keep the risen army for crossing some line or the ritual automatically fails, etc.. You get the idea

If they ever improve the AI then maybe they could add a hard mode too. That would also make bonus objectives even harder and maybe more rewarding. Might even put more meaning into some of these PS instead of being able to just auto attack through most of it.

Of course that i would play the harder difficulty especially if i’m being rewarded with better shiny things.
In my opinion if the rewards are not equal to the difficulty curve and time spent then that is not a real MMO.

In my opinion, making up definitions to suit your own taste and play style servers no purpose.

An MMO is a massive, multiplayer online game, period. That means any game that has a persistent world where you can walk around with a bunch of other people at the same time is an MMOG. And if you add an RP aspect it’s an MMORPG.

Difficulty doesn’t, and never will define what makes a game an MMO.

Jana.6831:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

They may not be explaining the downstate, but it’s easier to read a single skill when you’re down and figure out what it does than four at once.

On the other hand, this is one of the changes I really didn’t like.

Instead of adding the skills to the weapon overview in the hero panel, they lock them away. Yeah… sounds rational.

So you expect people who just started the game to know about the weapon overview?
(Yeah I’m out)

Yes, the weapons overview is definitely a place where downed skills should be added. But that wouldn’t likely help a new player much at all.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jana.6831:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

They may not be explaining the downstate, but it’s easier to read a single skill when you’re down and figure out what it does than four at once.

On the other hand, this is one of the changes I really didn’t like.

Instead of adding the skills to the weapon overview in the hero panel, they lock them away. Yeah… sounds rational.

So you expect people who just started the game to know about the weapon overview?
(Yeah I’m out)

I expect ANet to implement a simple tooltip or a proper tutorial to direct new players to said overview. Something like “If you ask yourself what your weaponskills or your Downstateskills do, just go into your heropanel and look them up”.
Can’t be that difficult.

Proper tutorials work for some people and don’t work for others. Nothing works for everyone. That’s why multiple teaching tools should be included.

However if you have the time and resources to implement one, you implement the one that tests shows are most effective.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jana.6831:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

No, I mean that this game needs a tutorial instead of dumping down tha game.
The game should explain the downstate rather than locking it off, the game should explain bundles you can pick up rather than removing them, the game should explain class mechanics and skills instead of locking them away. The game got dumbed down because there is no proper tutorial. There are some quick tips you get here and there but they wont help. A one-time tutorial could help new players before they start playing regular, while vetaran players don’t have to bother with the tutorial. At the moment vetaran players, as they level an alt, have to bother with that non-existing mechanics just because it could be too complicated for new players.

Well anet thought that the average player would be smart enough to figure the downed state themselves. They just delayed the introduction of it so people would have to deal with one thing at a time.
And as a veteran player I tell you it doesn’t bother me. I level that fast in general that being restricted until level 7 isn’t a hinderance.

They don’t only locked the downstate but also the skills of the downstate, which you will unlock later. Yet they’re still not explaining the downstate or its skills.

They may not be explaining the downstate, but it’s easier to read a single skill when you’re down and figure out what it does than four at once.

On the other hand, this is one of the changes I really didn’t like.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

Tutorials don’t work for everyone. They’re often ignored by the people who need them the most. I’ve seen it too often for it to be just a random occurrence.

And that doesn’t really deal with the whole package anyway. Anet is talking about people starting to play and not continuing on. They tried various solutions and this one worked best.

It’s not just about “dumbing down”. It’s about pacing, about rewards and about teaching. This is what they chose, because in tests this gave the best results. If it was just about teaching, there might be more to talk about.

I say it once again: If players are “overwhelmed” and reject the help given to them then there is no need to hold these players because they would leave sooner than later anyway. Then GW2 isn’t their game. On the other hand the old introduction to the game was able to hold more than 3 million players who are still active.

What evidence do you have this this game has held 3 million players, or even close to that number?

3 million or so started playing the game and we know a boatload of them left when ascended gear was introduced…or if we don’t know it, we can infer it from both what people have said and what we saw in game.

There may or may not be 3 million people playing this game, but I suspect the number is quite a bit less. It would be very surprising to me if it were that many.

People leave games all the time. There’s a natural attrition in games. We haven’t yet heard that the game has old five million copies.

And yes, there are probably people in China right now playing that would up the number considerably but do you really think such a huge percentage of people are still playing two years later?

That means getting more players. Your assertion that people who reject help they need one stay anyway is based on what? What makes you think they’d leave anyway?

If people are being helped in spite of themselves and it gives them an anchor into the game, there’s more chance they’re stay, not leave. That’s logical in my mind anyway.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

You say this is a minority of players. How do you know? Can you show me some evidence.

It’s obviously not a minority, or Anet wouldn’t have gone through the time and expense of actually making the changes. Colin’s words “absolutely not good enough” doesn’t seem like a minority to me. Sounds to me like the minority continue on past those levels and they’re trying to get more players to play for longer.

Compromise isn’t backpedaling btw, because much of the changes are still in the game. If they’ve back pedaled so much why are people still complaining, hmmm?

Sounds hyperbole to me, which is in line with their previous announcements.
Yes, out of all players who stopped playing GW2 and filled out the survey, those players are the majority. Out of all players who have played or are still playing the game, they’re the vast minority.
Players are still complaining because the mechanics are still locked away. No one complains about level reward, even if I think that that’s the wrong way to approach the boring leveling, they complain about things like dancing in front of cows instead of feeding them like before.
And ANet is backpedaling, they rushed their NPE changes expecting no great uprising. But the backclash came and it was intense. How do you want to claim you’re catering to the masses if the “features” are upsetting so many players.

Anet didn’t say they were catering to the players that are playing the game with the NPE. They said they were catering to the public not playing the game.

I’m willing to bet that more people don’t play this game than do. I’d even go as far to say there are more people not playing this game who would enjoy it than currently play it. It’s a pretty safe bet. Those are the masses. Not the people currently playing.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jana.6831:

So you say the game needs a tutorial but that this tutorial is “dumbing” down the game? That’s a pretty hard task to master, isn’kitten No idea what exactly you mean with “one time tutorial” that veteran players can turn off the tips and tricks, or that new players would have to master a starter area to progress in the game? I don’t really care about the tool tips to be honest, I can click them away, so whether or not they’re there doesn’t inflict me. I like the “yay you leveled up, here’s some stuff” thing because it makes leveling less boring. If it were a tutorial in which the players were “trapped” until they were able to progress in this game, they would probably be annoyed before they even finished it. I know that I played the tutorials in my offline games after I finished the game.

No, I mean that this game needs a tutorial instead of dumping down tha game.
The game should explain the downstate rather than locking it off, the game should explain bundles you can pick up rather than removing them, the game should explain class mechanics and skills instead of locking them away. The game got dumbed down because there is no proper tutorial. There are some quick tips you get here and there but they wont help. A one-time tutorial could help new players before they start playing regular, while vetaran players don’t have to bother with the tutorial. At the moment vetaran players, as they level an alt, have to bother with that non-existing mechanics just because it could be too complicated for new players.

Tutorials don’t work for everyone. They’re often ignored by the people who need them the most. I’ve seen it too often for it to be just a random occurrence.

And that doesn’t really deal with the whole package anyway. Anet is talking about people starting to play and not continuing on. They tried various solutions and this one worked best.

It’s not just about “dumbing down”. It’s about pacing, about rewards and about teaching. This is what they chose, because in tests this gave the best results. If it was just about teaching, there might be more to talk about.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.

I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.

Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.

If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.

But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.

Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.

Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.

I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.

If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
I for one heard only a few players that they liked the changes and none that said that they love the new way to unlock weaponskills or how the personal story plays out now or that they can dance in front of cows to please them or that they don’t have a downstate for the first few levels.

I’ve heard from a quite a few players that really don’t like it. I’ve heard from a few players who barely even know about it. I’ve spoke to some who liked it.

The people it’s meant for our new players. So if a handful, and I believe it is a handful, of players really cant’ stand it and leave and we get more new players out of it, that’s how businesses grow.

This idea that some how there’s this vast majority of people who are going to be so annoyed they’re going to leave over this, or even more, are even really badly affected by this is just a forum firestorm and nothing more.

Anet knows it. Most people probably realize it, so it’s not going to change.

If the over all benefit is more players then it did its job. Anyone who leaves over this was probably going to leave the game anyway. It’s just not that big a deal.

ANet has created the NPE, they’re backpedaling since. They call it “finetuning”.
This alone shows that the changes aren’t fleshed out and created based on incomplete facts. They’ve said that the NPE got developed based upon a survey for players who stopped playing within the first hours. There is only a very minor part of players, otherwise the humanity would be doomed, who stopped playing GW2 because it was too complicated for them and then filled out the survey.
You have to keep in mind that those players got “overwhelmed” by the things the game offers but showed no interest in understanding the things. Do you wholeheartly believe that they will show more interest now that they just have to press 1 all day long to win the game?

Every mechanic this game offers, and those aren’t much, can be explained in a proper tutorial. Nothing has to be dumbed down. Nothing has to be dumbed down so much that it reaches dance-in-front-of-cows-to-please-them level.

You say this is a minority of players. How do you know? Can you show me some evidence.

It’s obviously not a minority, or Anet wouldn’t have gone through the time and expense of actually making the changes. Colin’s words “absolutely not good enough” doesn’t seem like a minority to me. Sounds to me like the minority continue on past those levels and they’re trying to get more players to play for longer.

Compromise isn’t backpedaling btw, because much of the changes are still in the game. If they’ve back pedaled so much why are people still complaining, hmmm?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.

I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.

Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.

If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.

But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.

Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.

Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.

I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.

If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
I for one heard only a few players that they liked the changes and none that said that they love the new way to unlock weaponskills or how the personal story plays out now or that they can dance in front of cows to please them or that they don’t have a downstate for the first few levels.

I’ve heard from a quite a few players that really don’t like it. I’ve heard from a few players who barely even know about it. I’ve spoke to some who liked it.

The people it’s meant for our new players. So if a handful, and I believe it is a handful, of players really cant’ stand it and leave and we get more new players out of it, that’s how businesses grow.

This idea that some how there’s this vast majority of people who are going to be so annoyed they’re going to leave over this, or even more, are even really badly affected by this is just a forum firestorm and nothing more.

Anet knows it. Most people probably realize it, so it’s not going to change.

If the over all benefit is more players then it did its job. Anyone who leaves over this was probably going to leave the game anyway. It’s just not that big a deal.

OMFG…he was adorable. Now I’m gonna cry.

That’s just …gah.

GuzziHero.2467:

Vayne.8563:

Malchors is a level 75-80 zone. Most of the creatures in the zone past the entrance will be a higher level than you. You don’t really need to go to Malchors at level 74. I’m almost 100% positive that a reasonably competent player at level 74 could get through most of Malchors without experiencing what you have.

It may very well be a learn to play issue. Stats are important in this game…but not that important.

13 level 80s, playing for over 2 years. The main difference to normal is that I was levelling using only pick up gear where usually I gear up with rares every 10 levels, and the NPE.

Thanks for the condescending tone, however.

It’s not condescending. You’re making a complaint that I feel is just wrong. I’ll test it myself (pretty sure I did when I was leveling) but I’m pretty sure I can take a 74 into Malchors of any profession and do okay. Not in big events mind you, with a zillion spawns, but certainly in the areas between outposts.

I’m not convinced those stats make that big a difference, unless you were very undergeared.

I could definitely get behind this. Losing a pet is just horrible. Having lost more than my share, I can definitely relate.

Yep, I definitely thing WvW, but not EotM, could be made to be more rewarding.