What are some of the things that make it “better” for you Vayne?
I’m a big fan of cooperative stuff. I love that no one can still your node or your kill. That you can rez anyone without using a skill slot. I love that if people participate in an event, everyone gets credit.
I like small details in the world, often hidden. Stuff you wouldn’t normally see unless you go looking for it. I love the way some dynamic events interact with each other. Like if you’re doing an escort and the bridge is out, it’ll stop and then you have to do the bridge event to finish the escort event.
I love the way combat works in this game. It’s fluid and I feel involved. Compared to other MMOs the combat in this game is great.
I love the whole Sylvari concept. And the grove. I like how I almost always get the daily just playing, without doing anything special.
I like the wardrobe, and how it’s set up.
And I love the little hidden links to Guild Wars 1.
That’s really awesome OP. I’m going to share this link with my guild.
It’s broken if people sign up for free weekends and don’t continue on to the game. You don’t ultimately get to decide it’s broken or not broken. Also, your comments about the audience having stuck through the game implies some kind of majority are feeling this way. I accept some people are, but I think you’ll find a disproportionate amount of them post on the forums. There are still plenty of people who started 2 years ago and are still enjoying the game. And some who have left and come back.
YOU are not enjoying the game because of the stuff you’re saying. I’M still enjoying the game, because of stuff I’ve said. “The audience” you’re referring to, doesn’t exist. We’re all individuals with different likes and dislikes. In fact, not everyone dissatisfied with the game is dissatisfied for the same reasons you are, and not everyone who likes the game likes the game for the same reasons I do.
I think a reason people have a hard time conversing with you (i.e. the whole white knight thing), is you don’t really read into what people say, you often just react. Maybe you enjoy being argumentative?
It doesn’t really matter though, i’m not bothered. I’ve had access to a fairly large amount of opinions from players who’ve either played or are still playing the game. I also didn’t say i don’t enjoy the game, i actually said i’m disheartened with it from a direction PoV. Design decisions affect my enjoyment of the game, but it doesn’t make me have knee jerk reactions to simply hate it all the sudden.
It’s actually not broken if it’s had a pretty successful retention rate (this is still a pretty popular game from what i can tell), it’s only broken if there is some hard number it needs to maintain over a certain course of time, which has it’s own set of problems, like feeling rigged, with a stench of rough corporate control.
I’m expressing an opinion that i actually share with a pretty large audience, that’s really all. I’m also not claiming that audience is the majority or that they all share the same opinion on what’s wrong with the game, just that they do actually share a general consensus.
Right and my audience is tiny. No one thinks the way I do. You’re so busy trying to prove I’m a white knight, you didn’t even read what I said. I said I have a group and you have a group and there are a bunch of other groups. I’m not sure why you’d find that so unreasonable. In fact, if you reread what I wrote, there’s nothing in it at all that’s white knightish. I just pointed out that different groups don’t always agree even if they like or don’t like the game. If you think there’s something untrue about that okay. Maybe you’re just hung up on the fact that I’m a white knight so you don’t read what I actually said.
Anet has hard numbers on how many people try the game and how many people continue playing past level 10, level 20. How many go on to buy the game. You saying it’s not broken means about as much as me saying it is. That is, neither comment holds any real weight, because we don’t have the facts.
We do have a quote from Colin saying it’s “absolutely not good enough”, referring to player retention. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I don’t think you have the evidence, other than I know guys who think like I do. Well yeah, I know guys who think like I do.
Perhaps you guys haven’t noticed the numerous threads posted by people who didn’t like the personal story or never did the personal story.
You know, I am one of those story people and the personal story is important to me. But I’m pretty sure I’m not a majority.
I’d guess that more people are attracted to this game by the smoothness of the combat than the personal story.
And since the personal story technically begins in the introduction and then you get it again an hour later, it should work for most people.
Yeah, I got no problem with that myself. Which leaves the fixing of the story chapters to be done which from the looks of the last patch seems like they are working on it. Though judging from Chapter 8, there is still some stuff that needs serious fixing.
Yeah, you just can’t make changes like that, without going back and redoing other scenes that refer to missing scenes. It’s a mess.
And since the personal story technically begins in the introduction and then you get it again an hour later, it should work for most people.
You may get it an hour later, but many players don’t. It’s reasonable to say that new players will take significantly longer to reach the next part of the story.
Not if they’re following the arrow they won’t. It really is that fast. I can get to level 10 much faster than an hour. An hour isn’t an unreasonable time frame for a new person to get to the story.
They released early as many MMOs do. This game as good enough to keep a lot of people over the two year period where they were fixing stuff. It’s a credit to the game.
Because they launched early they are playing catchup. Fixing stuff like this two years later is more normal for MMOs than not normal. Particularly big ones. Because the list of things to do is a long, long list. And hearts weren’t going to be their first priority…at least not until they launched in China and that had a whole lot of new people to do it for.
It’s just that their priorities are different from your priorities.
That end bit really wasn’t at all my point. Also, not my point about fixing bugs 2 years later, obviously if a bug isn’t game breaking it goes to the bottom of the list.
My entire point is the audience that has stuck with the game, paid money to buy your virtual goods, that are now disheartened by persistent bugs and smaller content updates, are the ones that need to be catered to.
And yes, it’s true that some games have gone back several years later and revamped the NPE, in almost every case, it’s shown to be a last ditch effort toward player retention to an audience that wasn’t going to stick with it anyway. This is regardless of the perceived fact that new games draw in the most numbers, giving you the most bang for your buck. Word of mouth from people that already play your game along with a positive public face are what bring people in. Right now, both of those areas need some work. I have no doubt, the NPE did improve “some” players initial experience, but are those players really your target audience? Maybe a small percentage of a much smaller base of people that will even make it to 80.
While they may have already done it for China, i still think it’s a waste of development dollars to try and fix something that was essentially not broken. I’m really of the mind that this is all about metrics and spreadsheets, which is why i feel their priorities are borked, not because they differ from mine, as i have no stake in their success to have any priorities. I just has opinions, and we know what those are like.
It’s broken if people sign up for free weekends and don’t continue on to the game. You don’t ultimately get to decide it’s broken or not broken. Also, your comments about the audience having stuck through the game implies some kind of majority are feeling this way. I accept some people are, but I think you’ll find a disproportionate amount of them post on the forums. There are still plenty of people who started 2 years ago and are still enjoying the game. And some who have left and come back.
YOU are not enjoying the game because of the stuff you’re saying. I’M still enjoying the game, because of stuff I’ve said. “The audience” you’re referring to, doesn’t exist. We’re all individuals with different likes and dislikes. In fact, not everyone dissatisfied with the game is dissatisfied for the same reasons you are, and not everyone who likes the game likes the game for the same reasons I do.
A lot of the things GW2 does well is remove a lot of the hassle that comes from other game design. If you think that dungeon kicking is bad now, you should’ve seen how bad it was in some of the other games I’ve played. Phantasy Star Universe had different item acquisition modes (round robin, random, first come first serve), but it also had a “leader decides everything” system along with a bunch of random drops at the end of each mission. So, if the leader ever found an item he wanted, he would just quickly kick every other player in the team so he could get it. Given that most of the game was gear based… it wasn’t a pretty sight.
But in general, the thing with a lot of conveniences is that a lot of the content of the game is in dealing with these inconveniences. For example, no roots while casting means that everything becomes spammy, with less emphasis on positioning and timing. The gameplay is certainly different, but better? I’m not so sure.
Better is always a value judgement. Compared to other MMOs, for me, this game is better. That’s why I support it so strongly. I acknowledge other games are better for other people of course.
The size of the group that doesn’t want something in the game has to matter. A lot of what we’re talking about here is perception, not reality, because humans are not logical creatures.
There are far less people really affected by the NPE changes at low levels than are currently complaining. They have a perception that Anet thinks they’re stupid. That’s not reality. That’s perception. Anyone who thinks that is probably not who the changes were made at…but many people have said it. If they were a big enough group (and I don’t believe they are), they’d have more power to sway development direction than a smaller group. This is simple logic.
The question is, does Anet know what groups are what size. Maybe not exactly, but they probably have a better idea of it than we do. Anet can probably tell you exactly what percentage of a players have never even attempted a dungeon run. We don’t know that, they do.
Sometimes it really is that simple.
Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.
I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…
Except that the hungry bunnies do still knock you over if you’re not careful. I know this for a fact because it happened to my newest character the other day when I did that particular renown heart, which is now located at the bottom of the cliff in Taigan Groves. And, in point of fact, I have no quarrel with it. The renown heart as it was previously was quite tedious and the bunnies were really a bit too active, plus which you ran the risk of falling to your death if you were in the wrong spot. This new version goes a lot faster. (I also notice that nobody seems to have commented on the new state of the renown heart involving trade with the jotun. There are a lot of low-level enemies there now which makes the heart go much faster because you can kill them to get it done and get XP in the process, which IMO greatly improves that heart, which previously was the most boring one in Wayfarer.)
I completely agree some hearts needed work, however if “getting your house in order” is a basic premise they are addressing 2 years after release, they have some pretty big problems.
I’m completely of the mind that there is really no better MMORPG out there, least for me. But, now i tend to float in and out of this and other games and i’m usually a person that sticks with one for a pretty long time.
It makes me sad that the game and the team seem so mismanaged and that i just don’t feel that “deeper” connection. I’d really like to support the game, but in it’s current state and direction, i’m having a really hard time justifying it.
They released early as many MMOs do. This game as good enough to keep a lot of people over the two year period where they were fixing stuff. It’s a credit to the game.
Because they launched early they are playing catchup. Fixing stuff like this two years later is more normal for MMOs than not normal. Particularly big ones. Because the list of things to do is a long, long list. And hearts weren’t going to be their first priority…at least not until they launched in China and that had a whole lot of new people to do it for.
It’s just that their priorities are different from your priorities.
OP the second part of your post is much better and more realistic than the first part of your post.
The easiest example is you don’t know why it was important to pick one over another. It wasn’t important…if you’re the kind of player who thinks in terms of mechanics instead of story. For many of us, any way we can differentiate our characters from other characters or even other of our own characters is a good thing.
When I choose a god for my human characters, it’s based on what I want those characters to be like and reflects my personality. It doesn’t need something in game to make that real. Because I’m immersing myself (in as much as I can anyway) into that character. Giving me another skill would ruin it a bit, because people would try to figure out the best skill for their profession that complements it, instead of what is my character like. You’ve simply missed the point of that system. You’re thinking in terms of MMO mechanics, not playing a role. And this is an mmoRPG.
But I think everyone would like new skills and weapons and more options. Just not one associated with one race and one choice. That’s not the way to go.
Slowing down the rate at which someone sees stuff does have a positive effect on a percentage of people. That is to say, information overload is a problem for many people and slowing down the rate at which information is offered is definitely one viable solution.
Yes, it does. However, changing where in the leveling process something appears, then changing the pace of leveling so that it takes about the same time to gain does nothing for those people.
What might help some people is seeing something in the level-up dialogue about new stuff. The NPE does.this a bit better than the old level up method. Ultimately, however, people don’t learn if they don’t take the time to see what newly introduced things do, no matter when they appear.
I don’t know that it does nothing for those people. The point is to offer it in sections, not all at once. Part of that is removing stuff from the map too. Less input. THa’ts all it takes. It doesn’t take long if you do it right.
I’ve had a couple of my “best friends” (coughs) from the forums add me and when I notice I usually block them. Of course I’ve also made friends on the forums with people I chat with in game.
I can see where you’re coming from OP, but I don’t really mind it. I currently have about 75 people following me and don’t know most of them.
I get to level 15 in an hour and a half. Yes several people DO disagree with me. You’re clearly ignoring the people who agree with me. I’m not so sure what percentage is what anymore.
Most of the complaining about the NPE stopped after Anet made changes to it. Most people seemed relatively content after that.
Are there still complaints? Sure. There are also complaints about no mounts, no open world PvE, and Keg Brawl…so yeah.
It had NEVER taken me, and i mean NEVER taken me an hour or more to get to level 7 in this game. Ever. I could get to level 10 in about 15-20 minutes, so saying that gating something like weapons swap behind level 15 being the same as it being at level 7 is disingenuous. I find it hard to believe anyone that has played this game regularly took that long to get to level 7. Ever.
You must be special then, because it took many people a whole lot longer. Sure, if you know the game and you run run run, you could always do things fast. Now you do things fast without particularly trying. I never got to level 10 in 15-20 minutes or even in an hour, so I have no idea what you’re on about.
I would like to give perhaps a different perspective to the NPE. So to give a little background to this, I am not a new player. My first MMO was GW1 and have played others in between the two games.
MMOs in general have core concepts such as armour, weapons, upgrades, crafting, loot drops and countless other things that most players who are GW2 veterans or gamers who have played other MMOs will take their understanding of for granted.
So my Girlfriend decided that after a few years of moaning at me for playing GW2 all the time she would give it a try during the free trial. I ultimately brought her an account as it was in the sale.
My Girlfriend has no experience of an MMO, her typical computer games are things like Sim City and the odd PS4 or Xbox One game like Kinect Sport.
At first when she created a character and did her first starting levels, she was getting really into it. I followed her around in the low level areas trying to explain the basics like navigating, killing mobs etc.At the end of her first few hours she seemed quite into the game. Yesterday she went back onto it and continued doing hearts until she hit level 10. At this point she had what can be described as a mini melt down as to how confusing the requirements are. She got very frustrated at not knowing what the armour types are for, what to do with loot, why we have bank storage, what to do with crafting materials, why we needed crafting materials, what the purpose of food buffs are and all of the things that a seasoned MMO player would know instinctively.
She felt that the game did not do a good job of explaining these elements during the initial game play.
Based on my girlfriends experience so far, I believe that the changes to the NPE are most definitely a good idea as having everything available from the get go would have been even more overwhelming.
I also believe that the NPE should introduce some of the points mentioned above at an earlier stage so her confusion could have been minimised.
She hasn’t rage quit yet but we will see how her next few days go.I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.
I believe further changes could be made in order to help new players learn these concepts within the game, perhaps tutorials that could be accessed within the game rather than having to access the wiki.
OOOOOORRRRRRRRRR
ANET can include a kittening manual with the game LIKE GAMES USED TO.
And you READ.Mini melt down? Is, is that a thing? In videogames?
Once I almost killed someone at work, I got kinda stressed, took an hour off.
Was kinda shaky.[3 lines edited out, because I legitimately fear infractions now, thank anet]
Also Vayne and Phys
I don’t know what the fudge you guys are talking about, kinda, but as a new player last year and half ago, it NEVER occurred to me to spam 1.Hell I didn’t even know autoattack was a thing!
When I first got “downed” I got so excited I was positively ready for lady company!Now “Survivor” had more, I don’t know, pizazz?! I don’t know but it was AMAZING, instead of you know, just dying and rezzing as goes the STALE mmo routine.
And in this way, Anet did something new and unique and frantically fun!But now people have “meltdowns”.
I wonder what will happen when they start working…I hope it’s not at Starbucks.
It never occurred to me to press 1 either, but if you walk around Tyria and watch other people fight, you’ll see a percentage of the playerbase does just that.
I don’t understand how spamming 1 1 1 over and over again helps a new player learn how the combat system works.
For five minutes? Give me a break. They’re not spamming 1 once the tutorial is over…usually takes less than five minutes.
Maybe they’ll learn to move and fight at the same time, something you can’t do in many MMOs.
they have no reason to learn this though, because they trvialized the encounters. actionh games can get by early with one button, because they usually make early game about mastering moving and hitting at the proper times, but gw2 tends to have enemies with unclear hit boxes, poor feedback on when you get hit, poor movement, and their attacks are rare.
thinking about it, the monster basic behavior and movement style is generally really poor. i dont mean like AI, i mean like this monster tries to maintain mid range and use line drive attacks, this other guy tries to teleport next to you then strike, this guy does a damaging line drive. Just regular enemy behavior type stuff
People complain that people press 1 through the entire game and that complaint goes back long long before the NPE. So blaming that fault on the NPE would be misdirecting your ire. If your complaint is people can do content by hitting one, you’re considerably late complaining about it.
I’m an experienced player and I didn’t find it particularly onerous. Not as good as it once was, but by no means was my experience ruined either. It’s a bit slow at the beginning, but since I hit level 10 pretty kitten ed fast, I just don’t care.
My level 50 character still feels Harrison Bergeroned, having only about half the traits available that he used to.
I’m talking about the NPE, not the trait redo which was done on April 15, which I’m against. The changes made on September 9th didn’t touch the trait system.
By all means complain about the trait system, but the NPE has become a non-issue. The biggest issue left from it is from the hatchet job done on the post level 70 personal story. Now that is something that needs to be fixed.
I don’t understand how spamming 1 1 1 over and over again helps a new player learn how the combat system works.
For five minutes? Give me a break. They’re not spamming 1 once the tutorial is over…usually takes less than five minutes.
Maybe they’ll learn to move and fight at the same time, something you can’t do in many MMOs.
Slowing down the rate at which someone sees stuff does have a positive effect on a percentage of people. That is to say, information overload is a problem for many people and slowing down the rate at which information is offered is definitely one viable solution.
Perhaps, but it’s also equally detrimental to everyone else, who grasps the systems available quickly enough, and then have nothing to do with their time for dozens of levels until the game decides even the slowest kids in class have picked up the lessons. It would be like if a K-12 school system decided that because some students take until grade 5-6 to learn to read reasonably well, there will be no required reading for anyone until grade 7, and math will be kept at simple arithmetikittenil college.
If some people need more time to learn things, they can take all the time they need, but it should not come at the expense of all the other players.
I think there has to be a balance and I don’t think the balance they’ve struck is that far off. It’s never going to be perfect for everyone. It has to be somewhere in the middle and it is.
I’m an experienced player and I didn’t find it particularly onerous. Not as good as it once was, but by no means was my experience ruined either. It’s a bit slow at the beginning, but since I hit level 10 pretty kitten ed fast, I just don’t care.
It’s a tiny percentage of a character’s “lifespan”. Of course you’re free to disagree, but that’s what I mean by not perfect for everyone. There needs to be a compromise and that’s what Anet has done.
Based on my girlfriends experience so far, I believe that the changes to the NPE are most definitely a good idea as having everything available from the get go would have been even more overwhelming.
I can understand her points, but I don’t think the NPE is the solution.
For one thing, I could see the value in staggering out when you are required to know things. Unlock stuff at the rate it was unlocked before the NPE, but don’t require that people use these things, just leave them to the side so that players who are too busy learning the basics never even notice they could use Utilities or food or whatever.
More importantly, the game needs WAY better tutorial elements. Every system, such as food, should be clearly explained to every player. Maybe use those new level-up prompts, like have one offer you food, and fully explain what the food is for. Have one offer skillpoints, and explain how to spend them, slot a skill, and use it.
If a player is not good at learning MMO systems on their own, and if the game never explains the system to them, then it doesn’t matter whether they push a feature back by five levels, twenty levels, or all the way to 80, they’ll still be confused about it when they get there.
Except that it’s not just extremes. It’s not just a player is good or a player is bad at learning MMO systems. There are all sorts of gradations and variations in the middle, a range of people with different abilities.
Slowing down the rate at which someone sees stuff does have a positive effect on a percentage of people. That is to say, information overload is a problem for many people and slowing down the rate at which information is offered is definitely one viable solution.
Perhaps you guys haven’t noticed the numerous threads posted by people who didn’t like the personal story or never did the personal story.
You know, I am one of those story people and the personal story is important to me. But I’m pretty sure I’m not a majority.
I’d guess that more people are attracted to this game by the smoothness of the combat than the personal story.
And since the personal story technically begins in the introduction and then you get it again an hour later, it should work for most people.
When a product gets older, to entice more people to buy it, specials often occur. No one is entitled to specials a year or two down the line. It makes no sense. I once bought a Sony DVD player and a couple of months later they were giving free movies to buy it. I didn’t get those free movies and Sony wasn’t going to give them to me. It’s all about timing.
However, with an MMO it’s different. Anyone who starts today is behind the curve. They have less gold, less karma. Karma gain was at one point nerfed tremendously.
I think anyone should be able to trade everything they’ve earned in the game to get free stuff that comes with the box now.
I’m pretty sure almost no one would go for that trade.
I do miss feeding the bears in Wayfarer’s. But would a new player notice? Guess not.
Never mention that around me again! I thought that when I first did it before the NPE that it was most endearing and lovely thing to do, I was looking forward to doing it again with any character that might pass that way.
I didn’t realize that they’d removed it so couple of days ago, F…F..FF. “eh?” somethings wrong with my keyboard (look down, nope I’m pressing the right key F), try again to feed the poor little bear cubs, finally I figured out it had been removed..
Achievement Unlocked!
Making a 40 year old man cry because he can’t feed bears in a virtual game.
Congratulations ArenaNet :Pp.s I bet even Gaile Grey is a little upset by this change too, not that she’d say anything, she being the ranger pet lover.
I really don’t think they needed to take any of that stuff out.
Actually yes, it is 100% true. It means exactly what I said. Never said anything about dodging, the TP, SPvP, etc. I was talking about weapon skills, PS, dumbed down starting zones, profession mechanics, burst leveling, etc. Surely you didn’t think skill points and diving goggles were the only things gated?
Alright, since I’m already here (I should not, really, spending way too much time on the forums ) anyway: A friend of mine once complained that I have to kill EVERYTHING – and yeah, he’s right, I usually kill everything, sometimes not but that’s unusual – it took me ages to get all the weapon skills, so I wonder how you guys miss out on them if you’re surely not killing as many mobs as I do. That’s kind of an honest but rhetorical question – I can’t believe that any veteran is restricted by the level gated weapon skills, sorry.
You realize that I mentioned a lot more than just the weapon skills, right?
And it’s been pointed out a lot that this new system often ends up being even more confusing, since if I level to lvl 5 using just one weapon and decide to try out a different one, I’m now confronted with 5 new skills that I’ve never seen before. How is that any less confusing that the way it was before?
And anyway, that wasn’t even the point. The point was that the OP stated that since the NPE was made for new players, so vets can’t complain about it. I was pointing out that since the NPE in most cases doesn’t differentiate between new characters created by vets and those created by new players, vets have every reason to complain.
Vets do have reason to complain… but saying things like leveling gating is bad, when most of that stuff was always level gated is a red herring. And if you get to it faster it’s a double red herring.
It’s a mountain out of a molehill. And that’s all it will ever be.
Like I said, comparing something level gated at lvl 5 to something gated at lvl 13, for example, isn’t really an apples to apples comparison. Seems that’s actually the “red herring” that you’re talking about.
I get to level 15 in an hour and a half. Yes several people DO disagree with me. You’re clearly ignoring the people who agree with me. I’m not so sure what percentage is what anymore.
Most of the complaining about the NPE stopped after Anet made changes to it. Most people seemed relatively content after that.
Are there still complaints? Sure. There are also complaints about no mounts, no open world PvE, and Keg Brawl…so yeah.
NPE isn’t all that bad, the only horrible thing about leveling is not having any traits. They’re all locked behind ridiculous things like map completion and group events, forcing me to do stuff I hate just to unlock them. And yes, I realize you can buy them, but considering it’s an alt and a new character it’s quite annoying to get the skillpoints necessary to buy all of them.
I don’t count the trait changes as part of the NPE because we were complaining about that long before the NPE came out. I see traits as a separate issue and yes, I don’t like them at all.
Actually yes, it is 100% true. It means exactly what I said. Never said anything about dodging, the TP, SPvP, etc. I was talking about weapon skills, PS, dumbed down starting zones, profession mechanics, burst leveling, etc. Surely you didn’t think skill points and diving goggles were the only things gated?
Alright, since I’m already here (I should not, really, spending way too much time on the forums ) anyway: A friend of mine once complained that I have to kill EVERYTHING – and yeah, he’s right, I usually kill everything, sometimes not but that’s unusual – it took me ages to get all the weapon skills, so I wonder how you guys miss out on them if you’re surely not killing as many mobs as I do. That’s kind of an honest but rhetorical question – I can’t believe that any veteran is restricted by the level gated weapon skills, sorry.
You realize that I mentioned a lot more than just the weapon skills, right?
And it’s been pointed out a lot that this new system often ends up being even more confusing, since if I level to lvl 5 using just one weapon and decide to try out a different one, I’m now confronted with 5 new skills that I’ve never seen before. How is that any less confusing that the way it was before?
And anyway, that wasn’t even the point. The point was that the OP stated that since the NPE was made for new players, so vets can’t complain about it. I was pointing out that since the NPE in most cases doesn’t differentiate between new characters created by vets and those created by new players, vets have every reason to complain.
Vets do have reason to complain… but saying things like leveling gating is bad, when most of that stuff was always level gated is a red herring. And if you get to it faster it’s a double red herring.
It’s a mountain out of a molehill. And that’s all it will ever be.
I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.
You are not a new player and cannot appreciate the view of a new user. This patch was not tailored to veterans, it was aimed at improvements to people who are new.
Except that new characters created by veterans also have to deal with the same restrictions and gating, so whether the NPE was made for new players or vets is irrelevant in terms of giving feedback. As someone else pointed out, you’re only new once.
Except that’s not 100% true. Many of the things “gated” by new players can be done by vets, so I’m not 100% sure what your point is. I mean anyone can dodge, use the trading post, go to SPvP, get vistas and points of interest, even get skill points now. It takes you exactly one level longer now to unlock your elite.
It means exactly what I said. Never said anything about dodging, the TP, SPvP, etc. I was talking about weapon skills, PS, dumbed down starting zones, profession mechanics, no TP NPCs in starting zones, weapon swapping and offhand weapons, burst leveling, etc. Surely you didn’t think skill points and diving goggles were the only things gated?
But many of those things were always gated. People talk about weapon swapping as if they were never gated, but it was. People talk about skill unlocks being gated now, but they were always gated. So yeah, I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about.
And since the first 15 levels are actually faster now than before, the change in gating isn’t all that much to comment on. It might…might…be a bit more inconvenient. But that’s all it is.
People look at a number like weapon swapping used to be available at level 7. Now you got to wait all the way to level 15. I get to level 15 in almost the same time I used to get to level 7.
Hardly, since they were unlocked much earlier and the content was exciting enough to get there without much notice. You can hardly say that something gated at lvl 5 is exactly the same as something gated at lvl 13, can you?
And well, the speed of leveling really isn’t the point. If the content isn’t engaging, then well, why should we waste the time trying to level up? Many other people have pointed out that they have gotten very bored now around level 5ish, since there is nothing to do or everything has been dumbed down to obscurity.
These kinds of things have been explained to you over and over here. The fact that you choose to pretend that they don’t exist is well….rather telling.
Being gated is one thing, exciting content is another. I don’t particularly find the content less “exciting”. What you’re really complaining about is you can’t swap weapons to kill 10th level creatures your fighting, which makes the game, I guess, more exciting.
And yes time it takes means everything. If I used to have my weapon swap unlocked after I played for an hour and a half and now I have my weapon swap unlocked when I play for an hour and forty minutes (just estimates but that’s about what it worked out for me), I’d say it’s a mountain out of a mole hill.
In other words, I’m getting them at roughly the same time, but not the same level. And you keep ignoring that.
Isn’t it funny how you think that doesn’t matter, when an arbitrary level that has no real meaning in the world does. People are blinded by a meaningless number. The only thing that was ever really important was time.
I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.
You are not a new player and cannot appreciate the view of a new user. This patch was not tailored to veterans, it was aimed at improvements to people who are new.
Except that new characters created by veterans also have to deal with the same restrictions and gating, so whether the NPE was made for new players or vets is irrelevant in terms of giving feedback. As someone else pointed out, you’re only new once.
Except that’s not 100% true. Many of the things “gated” by new players can be done by vets, so I’m not 100% sure what your point is. I mean anyone can dodge, use the trading post, go to SPvP, get vistas and points of interest, even get skill points now. It takes you exactly one level longer now to unlock your elite.
It means exactly what I said. Never said anything about dodging, the TP, SPvP, etc. I was talking about weapon skills, PS, dumbed down starting zones, profession mechanics, no TP NPCs in starting zones, weapon swapping and offhand weapons, burst leveling, etc. Surely you didn’t think skill points and diving goggles were the only things gated?
But many of those things were always gated. People talk about weapon swapping as if they were never gated, but it was. People talk about skill unlocks being gated now, but they were always gated. So yeah, I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about.
And since the first 15 levels are actually faster now than before, the change in gating isn’t all that much to comment on. It might…might…be a bit more inconvenient. But that’s all it is.
People look at a number like weapon swapping used to be available at level 7. Now you got to wait all the way to level 15. I get to level 15 in almost the same time I used to get to level 7.
This would be hilarious! 10/10 would implement.
Commander + Trahearne = <3
. . . I will pay money for this to happen and be on YouTube.
Though let’s be honest. We’re all holding out for Logan/Rytlock.
I’d pay to see that. lol
I have no problem with the new story up until level 70. Post level 70 the story has been badly handled and that needs to be fixed. I get what Anet was trying to do…but it didn’t work.
I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.
You are not a new player and cannot appreciate the view of a new user. This patch was not tailored to veterans, it was aimed at improvements to people who are new.
Except that new characters created by veterans also have to deal with the same restrictions and gating, so whether the NPE was made for new players or vets is irrelevant in terms of giving feedback. As someone else pointed out, you’re only new once.
Except that’s not 100% true. Many of the things “gated” by new players can be done by vets, so I’m not 100% sure what your point is. I mean anyone can dodge, use the trading post, go to SPvP, get vistas and points of interest, even get skill points now. It takes you exactly one level longer now to unlock your elite.
While allowing a change would have been the best way, certainly, the quoted response from Anet seems to indicate that it is a difficult process given the current mechanics of the game. That argument falls down if there has been earlier cases of names simply being changed (as there have been, but not sure how substantiated they are).
It’s possible that recent changes to the way guilds are handled made the older methods of renaming obsolete, in which case they’d need to be reprogrammed. Remember, they changed guilds to being “account bound” instead of server bound and that might have screwed something up.
That said, I just don’t see why the name is offensive.
I’d like to hear from Anet on this one. I don’t believe any “well meaning” guild should ever be disbanded against their will. People put time and effort into building a guild up…they’ve spent hours of their time creating something. Anet has the legal right to take it down, but I don’t see how that’s in the game’s best interest.
We’ve only heard one side of the story. I’d like to hear the other side.
Everyone learns at different rates, but it doesn’t mean they can’t attain the same level.
Neither does it mean they can, with even less guarantee they will.
I have people in my guild who were appauling at this game who are now good. It took them more time to get there, but better players helped and didn’t give up on them. It’s part of what makes my guild so strong.
I have players in guild who were so dead bored already with the previous instance of levelling that most did not break the 30/40ish mark. Those same people, however, actually felt doing high-end stuff on GW, just to compare.
Anyhow, interesting question here:
Why do Radiant and Hellfire armor skins, which are locked behind borderline trollish amount of AP, get a sound thumbs-up by the community as ‘long-term goals’, while unique rewards tied to challenging content seem to automatically spell the end of the world?
Because they are in theory available to everyone?
(not really)
No idea. I’m not a fan of the way those armor sets are delivered. The achievement point cost is far too high.
And I don’t really have objections to say the new PvP skins, which you need to PvP to get. I wouldn’t really have objects to WvW skins, that you had to WvW to get.
I think it depends on the specific skin though. I get the feeling that the kind of skins people want for doing harder content will be the best looking skins in the game. I don’t think they’ll be satisfied with just another skin.
But don’t look to me for support of the Radiant and Hellfire stuff, because I don’t support it.
All those DEs you mention are exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. Awkwardly delivered content. I don’t do any of them anymore and when I did, I felt like I was wasting most of my time waiting for the right thing to happen. What is your point, except proving mine?
This game needs more “on-demand” content. Much, much more.
Okay my experience is exactly the opposite of yours. On demand content does nothing for me. Nothing at all. I think the play base may be more split on this than you think. It seems that plenty of people follow champ trains, world boss trains, farm Drytop or Orr. It’s clearly popular content.
What you’re saying is you personally don’t like that content. And I’m sure you’re not alone. But the stuff I listed might well be popular, because a lot of people do it and seem to enjoy it. Obviously it’s not going to be everyone’s cup of tea.
But it is what the game is based around. I suspect the more you like the stuff, the more you’ll end up liking the game.
Don’t get me wrong. I like most of the content we’re talking about. I just don’t like standing around waiting for it to happen. So I don’t do that anymore. And it leaves the game severely lacking.
I don’t find myself waiting too much. World events I do when people call them out in guild chat and I feel like it, or I’m not doing anything else. I seldom do Tequatl or the wurm.
I don’t find myself waiting a lot for trains, say in Dry Top. I didn’t find much waiting at all. There was almost always an event up in Dry Top, so no waiting.
Same with events that unlock temples in Orr. there’ almost always something up somewhere.
The only events I’ve really had to wait for were Tequatl and the Wurm, and those are more like raiding anyway….which is not my preference.
In the past, there was a lot more waiting the way the living story was laid out, but it was worth it for that content…to me anyway.
Here’s a question for you to ponder.
If Tequatl/Wurm was instanced and limited to certain number of people, e.g. 25, would it be played more often than it is right now?
The answer is yes.
The real answer is you don’t know. You think the answer is yes. I think the answer is no. I don’t know that we’ll ever get to find out.
All those DEs you mention are exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. Awkwardly delivered content. I don’t do any of them anymore and when I did, I felt like I was wasting most of my time waiting for the right thing to happen. What is your point, except proving mine?
This game needs more “on-demand” content. Much, much more.
Okay my experience is exactly the opposite of yours. On demand content does nothing for me. Nothing at all. I think the play base may be more split on this than you think. It seems that plenty of people follow champ trains, world boss trains, farm Drytop or Orr. It’s clearly popular content.
What you’re saying is you personally don’t like that content. And I’m sure you’re not alone. But the stuff I listed might well be popular, because a lot of people do it and seem to enjoy it. Obviously it’s not going to be everyone’s cup of tea.
But it is what the game is based around. I suspect the more you like the stuff, the more you’ll end up liking the game.
I don’t get this at all. One of my guildies created a guild to mess with me, and it was far more offensive in name than that. He got a letter from Anet asking him to disband or change it.
I’ve not before heard of Anet just disbanding a guild…and I don’t believe they should.
I’m not sure what Anet can do better to “sell” DE’s over hearts to new players but I feel it’s important. Hearts were only put in to keep people in the areas DE’s spawn.
I’ve come to believe that DEs are a terrible way to deliver content. They require either luck (running into them) or standing around waiting for them to happen. I’ve been playing a new character since the latest FP, and the amount of events I’ve never ran into while in the areas I know them to be in is staggering.
DEs seem like a good idea, until you realize that with little else to do in zones, they lead to dead zones where people only pass through once, because very few people enjoy wandering around aimlessly or standing around occasionally killing a respawned mob, waiting for an event to happen.
Champ Trains were DEs, world boss events are DE’s, Dry Top is DE’s, the Marionette was a DE, Escape from Lion’s Arch was a series of DE’s. The game is, like it or not, based around DEs.
The random ones you’re talking about are not the “main” DE’s. But they’re still important while leveling and people need to know about them.
While you are correct regarding dynamic events filling hearts that is only if a dynamic event that adds contribution happens to be ongoing while you are doing said heart. All I am saying is what they did to earlier zones in fact does not encourage doing dynamic events when it comes to someone who has no idea what a dynamic event is.
I know you level faster doing events, at least after level 15 that is, but based on my rather limited experience with the new low level zones if they are unlucky or simply coming from another more traditional MMO a new player likely has less chance to realize that before he reaches level 15 because of the accelerated leveling.
I said earlier in this topic that it seems strange they would postpone personal story until level 10 and then make the content before it is available wholly insignificant because it is over so fast. I am not saying they don’t have the right idea here, just that the execution is not very good.
I think dividing up the story is the logical conclusion of the story journal being added anyways and besides the personal story was episodic from the get go, so in that respect highlighting the fact can’t hurt. I still think there is absolutely no reason for them to not figure out a way to put the removed content back in, the story does suffer for those bits not being their (albeit I am slightly bitter in part because I had yet to experience 2 of the 3 fears available and now I can no longer do that).
I’m not sure what Anet can do better to “sell” DE’s over hearts to new players but I feel it’s important. Hearts were only put in to keep people in the areas DE’s spawn.
If they put mounts in game they will earn more money thru gem store….
This is almost certainly true. However if they do that, they have to be careful to give people basic mounts in game…only mount “skins” that don’t gave extra speed should be available in the gem store. Not that I suspect mounts are coming, but if they are, you shouldn’t have to pay to get that advantage.
First of all, it’s not just hearts…because events exist and events are an important part of this game. And I believe Anet wants people to think that events are an important part of the game.
Yeah but their changes at least for the first 15 levels with their new accelerated leveling seems to contradict that when each heart gives almost a full level. In other words until you reach level 15 under the new system the effective way to level directly contradicts with their goal of familiarizing users with the concept of events.
Then the XP gain normalizes and hearts give the usual amount of XP as far as I know. So the shift in focus on what a player should actually be doing or what appears intuitive to them is more jarring than it ever was under the old system.
You’re right that the personal story gave you variety for leveling, and when leveling those levels was much slower, that was important. Now, I’m not thinking it is.
For the first 15 levels maybe but after that you’ll still have stretches with no personal story that I would guess are far longer than they would be under the old story delivery.
Hearts are not the fastest way to level…dynamic events are faster. Because events fill hearts associated with them and you get credit for an event and a heart at the same time. And events do chain, so you get more than one in a row. Having played a new character from scratch, I can safely say I leveled faster looking for events then just going to hearts.
The stretches with no personal story fit in with what I said. The story wasn’t supposed to be the “main quest line”. Events were supposed to be the main offering. Anet said more than once leading up to the launch of the game.
But also the story got lost in the way it was broken up. Story arcs couldn’t be completed in short succession and if you didn’t have a memory for that type of thing, plot and character got lost as well.
I personally prefer doing all the stories together and often did on characters before the change. The only problem was by doing it that way, every reward was worthless because I was doing them from ten levels higher. I found this much better…but that’s just a preference.
Much better up until level 70, anyway. I’m almost done with the character I started leveling on 9/9 and then I have some comments I’ll make in another thread about the personal story. However, I think the change is right for the game. I think it’s better to stop people from thinking of the story as the main quest line…because in doing so, once someone finishes it, they’ve beaten the game and they can leave. That’s the habit many of us have from single player games.
I never made any claims I was also merely pointing out possibility’s, in fact we’re BOTH pointing out possibility’s, the only difference is im challenging anets status quo on the game and youre challenging my arguments in that respect, youre happy to accept brooks law as a basis to why there isn’t any substantial further developments, while I see the reason as anet wishing to continue milking the cash shop, at the end of the day all we have is circumstantial evidence on both sides of the argument, and ill admit there probably is a fair amount of brooks law happening at anet, my whole enquiry into those 2 head ppl that left was to determine to what extent and why, I do however think you are fooling yourself to not give my argument some credence, after all what we have proven through our posts is that it cant be ruled out as a possibility.
If you can’t tell the difference between making a statement to start a conversation or responding to a statement that may or may not be true, I really don’t know what to tell you.
I didn’t come to these forums and start a conversation stating something was true when it may or may not be true. I responded to something which was stated as a truth which may or may not be true. I don’t initiate posts with stuff I can’t back up. I do respond to posts made by other people however, because I wouldn’t make such posts myself.
you missed it again, oh well, not really that surprised, w/e, ignorance is bliss.
Well, I guess when you run out of valid argument, all that’s left is insults. I won’t be responding to any more of your posts.
271 votes right now are 18-24
167 votes right now are 25-34
25 votes are 45 and over
11 votes under 18 are like 23
So you have over 200 people over 24.
If you divide the population equally, which is as good a guess as any (there’s no real reason why the lower end of 18-24 would be all 18-20), then over 20 year olds would be far far more likely that under 20 year olds. Particularly when you see the other demographics.
The game looks like it’s more than half over 20. Probably far more than half. Sure there’s room for error…but not a whole lot of room. A pollster interpreting this breakdown would not put high odds on their being as many under 20 as over 20.
If you look at the results, there are far more older anyway.
I played with my friend. I just didn’t feel the need to preempt the game for him. I hung out, let him take the lead and explore. I didn’t say you should wait. But trying to show him a bunch of stuff he doesn’t have access to, doesn’t help him or you. It’s not giving the NPE a chance even.
Fair points, however, is there a reason to so heavily restrict access in the first place. I mean they take away access to PS for the first 10 levels all the while making that first 10 levels lack in variety.
I mean the idea should be to get people away from the heart to heart to heart checklist mindset and get them into the whole events thing, but right now with these changes the first 10 levels do the exact opposite (because you have nothing to do but hearts that give you almost a level per heart, if anything I’d call that misleading).
Right now, the first 10-15 levels feel like they exist in a vacuum, the focus changes so drastically after the starting zones.
Edit: hiding stuff on the minimap makes sense to me, weapon skills too (even if it makes initial combat dull), but this whole oversimplification of the initial 15 levels as a whole combined with the lack of personal story for the first 10 doesn’t because it results in play style that is counterproductive later on.
First of all, it’s not just hearts…because events exist and events are an important part of this game. And I believe Anet wants people to think that events are an important part of the game.
All along, I’ve seen posts from people in Players Helping Players and on Reddit, who were concerned that they didn’t level fast enough to keep up with the “main quest line”. That was the issue with how it was. There was this pressure thing to get to the next star, because everyone has been trained by every game to go to stars. This game isn’t about that, and Anet wants people to know that. So they give people an arrow now to follow, instead of stars, during which they learn the game. You get to level 10, even relatively casually in an hour and a half (it was much much faster for me) and sudden you have a new type of content. Just like in the old days you couldn’t do your first dungeon until level 30 (and still can’t).
You’re right that the personal story gave you variety for leveling, and when leveling those levels was much slower, that was important. Now, I’m not thinking it is. Keep in mind, I tried to enter the NPE experience with a completely blank mind (which given my age and insomnia is probably easier for me than most lol).
What is Raid exactly? noob here..
Raids are dungeons made for more people than you’d typically be able to party with. They are generally harder than normal dungeons and require far more people and coordination. Many MMOs are centered around raids.
As time progresses, the number of people that make a raid is less and less. In the old EQ days raids were 75 man. In vanilla WoW they were 40-man, and later became 20 main. Rift even had 10 man raids.
The bottom line is they’re supposed to be challenging, instanced content done with more people than a standard party.
First fifteen levels are faster. Then it goes back to about where it was. I’m not finding it particularly slower. I’m not finding it any faster. But the first 15 levels feel like they flew.
I don’t think they’ll be raids in the traditional sense of the word. I’d be very very cautious about saying raids are coming full stop.
They should make an option that you can turn on before story and living world instances that sets a point so that if you fail, you’re completely kicked out and would have to try again. I’d use that option.
Edit: Obviously the option would default to the easier setting and to be safe, there should be a warning on it, in case someone using the option forgets they’ve used it and end up frustrating themselves into quitting the game…because that can happen. Warning. You are entering unforgiving mode. You must complete this mission without dying.