Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.
I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.
You did not say, “to me it is the worst kind of hyperbole.” You said that it is the worst kind of hyperbole.
If you claim that your statement is not hyperbole because you believe what you said, then his cannot be accurately claimed to be hyperbole unless you can establish that he did not believe what he said.
Also, he did not claim that, “making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse.” He said nothing of the sort. He said, essentially, that players incapable of handling game elements like picking up a bundle would be bad at the game. He made no comment at all about the changes making people worse.
The worst type of statement can only be opinion. There is no objective worst. I could definitely have improved my message by saying to me however, just for clarity.
The person I was responding to the first time used the word FACT. Fact is not opinion. I never claimed my opinion was fact.
I will in the future, try to remember to add “to me” to posts more often. I had erroneously assumed that best to worst would be automatically assumed to be an opinion. I know for a fact that facts aren’t actually opinions though, and arguments that state they’re facts when they’re not are, to me, the worst kind of hyperbole.
He used the word worse too.
Interestingly enough his statement was factual. If someone cannot handle the existing difficulty of the game, to the point that the developers have to reduce its complexity/difficulty in order for that someone to play the game they are, by definition, “worse,” at the game than those who could handle the full difficulty.
His statement isn’t factual. You’re assuming no one that learns more slowly can get to play the game well over time. Everyone learns at different rates, but it doesn’t mean they can’t attain the same level.
I have people in my guild who were appauling at this game who are now good. It took them more time to get there, but better players helped and didn’t give up on them. It’s part of what makes my guild so strong.
Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.
I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.
You did not say, “to me it is the worst kind of hyperbole.” You said that it is the worst kind of hyperbole.
If you claim that your statement is not hyperbole because you believe what you said, then his cannot be accurately claimed to be hyperbole unless you can establish that he did not believe what he said.
Also, he did not claim that, “making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse.” He said nothing of the sort. He said, essentially, that players incapable of handling game elements like picking up a bundle would be bad at the game. He made no comment at all about the changes making people worse.
The worst type of statement can only be opinion. There is no objective worst. I could definitely have improved my message by saying to me however, just for clarity.
The person I was responding to the first time used the word FACT. Fact is not opinion. I never claimed my opinion was fact.
I will in the future, try to remember to add “to me” to posts more often. I had erroneously assumed that best to worst would be automatically assumed to be an opinion. I know for a fact that facts aren’t actually opinions though, and arguments that state they’re facts when they’re not are, to me, the worst kind of hyperbole.
Get enough 3 day suspensions, you’ll end up with a permanent ban.
Edge of the Mists is already like this. The problem with doing this with WvW is that people who play WvW don’t want to wait in queue for farmers to get done farming. It might not be a problem in lower tier servers, but I bet it would be a problem in tier 1…and maybe tier 2 as well.
I’ve never really paid any attention to it, but Karma Vendors don’t have Buyback like the other vendors? I wonder why….
Hmm..just went and checked…seems they do offer Buyback.
The buy back option is for when you sell something to someone you didn’t want to sell. It has nothing to do with buying something you didn’t want to buy…which is the OP’s problem.
Getting to events late or just as they finish isn’t much fun either…hence for this game…waypoints > mounts.
Just saying.
Um, I’m uh pretty sure Nokaru’s point is that stating that any type of post is “the worst kind of hyperbole” is in itself hyperbole.
I understand. However, hyperbole is overstating what you mean to make a case. I’m not actually overstating what I mean. To me that is the worst kind of hyperbole…thus it’s not hyperbole.
I had a friend play during the free trial weekend and I was there to help him out with stuff. The problem? I very rapidly ran out of things to show him, because it was all blocked off for low level characters.
I wanted to introduce him to a great game, but I just couldn’t. There wasn’t anything interesting I could show him because he was only level 2.
So let him alone to explore the game for an hour until he reaches level 10? I really don’t understand posts like this. How is showing your friend a bunch of stuff he could discover helpful anyway?
Drytop is a pretty cool zone, with a different dynamic than most other zones. Check it out.
Another game I played had a feature for most items where you could sell it back at full price within a short time frame of buying it (obviously using it at all canceled that ability).
A feature like that would be awesome for misclicked purchases and would probably free up some ticket work for support.
This. This would be a great QoL feature.
your assertion to brooks law is no more substantial then me drawing a conclusion about anets business practices based on 2 years of gws2, in fact me drawing conclusions from their business practices after 2 years is far more convicting than quoting brooks law, then you say I have something against the direction of the company as if I haven’t made it plainly clearly what and why, you speak of evidence when we’re both obviously speculating conclusions on possibility’s, that’s why I believe youre irrational because you count what you’ve said as evidence when its in fact at the very most just as speculative as the conclusions I’ve made, so yes I do see a pattern, one in which your have a strong subjective bias towards your own opinion.
You obviously can’t tell the difference between refuting a statement to show it’s not necessarily 100% accurate, or making a statement.
I didn’t instigate anything. I didn’t make a statement. I RESPONDED to a statement. That changes the entire dynamic.
If I came into these forums and said, straight out, that adding more people won’t slow down the production of a program, you’d have every right to be saying what you’re saying….but I didn’t do that at all.
I was replying to someone who was making a claim. That is it say, I was showing the POSSIBILITY that what that person was saying, and stating with great certainty, was possibly not as certain as they were claiming. The same about Kekai. I never EVER claimed to know why he left Anet.
I’m simply pointing out possibilities, because someone else claimed to know why.
If you have no evidence, don’t make claims. If you do make claims with no evidence, don’t expect people to just accept what you say. I’m within my right to RESPOND with alternate reasons why this might happen.
If you have evidence, by all means present it. I don’t think you do.
I don’t have evidence either. It’s why I RESPOND to statements like yours rather than MAKING them.
I never made any claims I was also merely pointing out possibility’s, in fact we’re BOTH pointing out possibility’s, the only difference is im challenging anets status quo on the game and youre challenging my arguments in that respect, youre happy to accept brooks law as a basis to why there isn’t any substantial further developments, while I see the reason as anet wishing to continue milking the cash shop, at the end of the day all we have is circumstantial evidence on both sides of the argument, and ill admit there probably is a fair amount of brooks law happening at anet, my whole enquiry into those 2 head ppl that left was to determine to what extent and why, I do however think you are fooling yourself to not give my argument some credence, after all what we have proven through our posts is that it cant be ruled out as a possibility.
If you can’t tell the difference between making a statement to start a conversation or responding to a statement that may or may not be true, I really don’t know what to tell you.
I didn’t come to these forums and start a conversation stating something was true when it may or may not be true. I responded to something which was stated as a truth which may or may not be true. I don’t initiate posts with stuff I can’t back up. I do respond to posts made by other people however, because I wouldn’t make such posts myself.
This post is the worst kind of hyperbole.
Using hyperbole to discredit hyperbole. Hm.
No. It really is my opinion that that’s the worst type of hyperbole. That’s actually true and not hyperbole. Saying something is a fact that’s not a fact is about as bad as it gets…to me.
Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?
And those people need to go back to Candy Crush or the Sims or minesweeper or solitaire where they belong. All they do is contribute to the dumbing down of a game with a lot of potential.
Interesting fact: All those new people the “NPE” is supposed to attract are going to be even worse. What sort of dungeon do you think someone who struggles with bundle items is going to want?
Interesting fact: More people make stuff up and call it facts than people who actually have facts.
You don’t know that making the first ten levels of a game easier will make people worse. It’s ten levels. This post is the worst kind of hyperbole.
There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.Maybe I’m wrong though :/
First of all, Dark Souls is available on both PC and console. Console is a bigger audience, which means selling that many copies is just okay. Anet sold more than that before the game launched and it’s only available on PC.
Now, what percentage of people who bought the game actually played the game for any length of time. People buy games for all sorts of reasons, but for a game like Dark Souls, the purchase is it. It doesn’t have to hold you for an hour. They’re not going to make millions of dollars off their cash shop.
That’s the thing. MMOs last longer, have higher overhead. If people don’t stay with the game, the game is in trouble. This doesn’t just mean long term players. It means people playing the first ten levels. Anet obviously had a problem with how many people were actually graduating to become players. They had to fix this.
But it’s not hand holding all the way. Most of the hand holding is in the first ten levels, which is pretty much what most MMOs do. There is NOTHING wrong with teaching a game to people. Nothing at all.
anet sold that many on PC before the game launched, under the assumption that it would be similar in challenge to GW1. I will say it really is not. Though i prefer gw2 combat, exploration, etc. DOA Underworld, challenge missions, hard mode vanquishing, heck for some missions, normal mode was harder than gw2,
So basically most the people who bought GW in the first month, believed it would be like gw1, even if they never played it, they would be going off how hard other people said it would be. This implies not everyone is as incapable, or non desiring of challenge as you imagine
This is a terrible assumption actually. I didn’t buy this game because I assumed it would be “similar in challenge” to Guild Wars 1. If you’re laboring under the assumption that the main reason people buy games is challenge, you’d have to do a lot more than say so to prove it to me.
People bought Guild Wars 2 for a whole host of reasons and challenge may or may not be a factor in that. I didn’t play Guild Wars 1 because I found it particularly challenging either. I don’t really think most people go look at games and say “that will be challenging”. I think people look at games and think “that will be fun”. Different people get their fun from different things. Most of the holiday events in Guild Wars 1 were popular, but I can’t think of any that were challenging. They were just fun.
There are always people interested in challenging themselves, but I don’t think it’s the bulk of humanity. Of course, I could be wrong.
There most definitely is an audience for games that treat you like an actual adult.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/05/08/dark-souls-ii-sells-1-2m-units-in-three-weeks/
1,2m in 3 weeks is pretty good if you ask me but I get where you’re coming from.
It just feels so incredibly insulting being handheld all the way, especially when they changed it from a good system to one that aims to bring in people with zero initiative (Is that the right word in english? What i mean is the ability to think for oneself and make calls based on good judgement/common sense).I’m not against the NPE, I think it’s a good thing if it makes people actually better at the game. It’s just that my gut feeling tells me that the Sept. patch wasn’t a crash, more of a ‘brace for impact’ sign before all the really bad players reach max level.
And when they do… May god help our poor souls.Maybe I’m wrong though :/
First of all, Dark Souls is available on both PC and console. Console is a bigger audience, which means selling that many copies is just okay. Anet sold more than that before the game launched and it’s only available on PC.
Now, what percentage of people who bought the game actually played the game for any length of time. People buy games for all sorts of reasons, but for a game like Dark Souls, the purchase is it. It doesn’t have to hold you for an hour. They’re not going to make millions of dollars off their cash shop.
That’s the thing. MMOs last longer, have higher overhead. If people don’t stay with the game, the game is in trouble. This doesn’t just mean long term players. It means people playing the first ten levels. Anet obviously had a problem with how many people were actually graduating to become players. They had to fix this.
But it’s not hand holding all the way. Most of the hand holding is in the first ten levels, which is pretty much what most MMOs do. There is NOTHING wrong with teaching a game to people. Nothing at all.
This is how new players get better.
Video is already outdated. Some of the stuff he’s “complaining” about has been fixed. There’s also misinformation in the video, not that you’d care about something like that. Why post a video you know is outdated, that has misinformation in it?
Vayne – just watch this. Just watch it.
What’s it when it came out. I’m very impressed by it. It almost went viral. Yes the arrow was bugged and this guy got a lot of play from that, among other things. He’s a guy trying to make money by promoting a youtube channel. Not exactly a big deal. He registered an opinon. I’m sure he’s made hundreds of games and really knows his stuff.
Of course I know my stuff too. Anyone can ridicule almost anything if they want to. Some people even make a living at it. Was this supposed to prove something to me?
I wouldn’t use the word appauled, but they did post about why the content was hard. They wanted to “stretch” players and make them better at the game. They said so, that’s how we know. It was a post on the forums.
They said that they wanted the community to come together and they wanted people to learn. They also said that until the community did learn they couldn’t put even more difficult content into the game. While I don’t remember it word for word, I will say that the implication to me seems like a lot of people needed to get better before Anet could really add harder content.
And that is achieved by making the introduction even easier? If ANet wants to attract the Farmville crowd then they shouldn’t be surprised when the avarage player has trouble finding the dodge key.
edit to add: I like games like divinity or dark souls because they give you all the information you need but make you figure stuff out on your own. If the game was harder from the get go (or ramps up fast after the intro), people would have to become better and I dread the day all those players that seemingly have trouble with even the simplest tasks are fully fledged endgame characters.
PUGS nowadays are bad enough, just imagine what happens when a wave of those finally hits us.shudder
I like games where you have to figure out stuff on your own too. But that doesn’t mean those are the most profitable games. The average game lasts people what? 16 hours? 20? 150?
MMOs have to last people longer which means far more investment. I’m not sure how long Dark Souls took to make or how many devs, but you can bet the cost of making it was a lot less than making Guild Wars 2.
When the cost of making a game is higher the game has to attract more people. It’s just basic logic. It’s the reality of making MMOs today.
A niche MMO would have a lot more trouble surviving if it came out today, unless the kept the budget really low. A lot of games that have less people make their ends meet by making them pay to win.
The business has changed, so the way businesses conduct business has to change. That means attracting a bigger range of people.
I preferred the old way to unlock skills as well. I’d like to see it make a comeback.
Not being able to feed the bears in Wayfarer Foothills is removing content? So noted. I think everyone can take what they want from that list.
I’d say more than the removal of “content”, the great shame of some of those early area NPE changes is the removal of “character”. A lot of what is now missing is some of the uniqueness that this game used to present to new players as soon as they left the starter instance.
It boggles the mind, when I think about the other MMORPGs I’ve played in beta recently. One of the most common refrains in both of them was that questing was bland and too “kill ten rats”. People expect more variety in a contemporary MMORPG. GW2 had a lot of that variety in it’s starter areas, but a portion was removed because it was just too confusing to new players.
Maybe it has significantly increased player retention. It’s still sad.
It’s also relegated to the first hour of play, during which new players are getting their feet under them. I can see why you think it’s sad. I can agree that it’s removal of character…but the character isn’t greatly affected unless you knew it was there in the first place. It’s removal of character to you. The game still has plenty of character left for new players.
When my friend was playing he kept stopping to listen to ambient dialogue. At one point he was listening to two conversations at once and he marveled how one got louder and the other dimmer as he moved between them. This is stuff we take for granted, but a lot of games don’t have.
It’s the attention to detail that always made this game great. Does it matter if you have five skills or one as a snow leapard for a guy playing the game for fifteen minutes….probably no so much.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.What we do know is that the wurm and marionette (especially marionette) events were pushed into the game partly because Anet devs were appaled at how low the average player’s skill was, and wanted to encourage people to improve. That… didn’t work as well as they expected.
One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.That is not certain. For example, i have friends both in casual and hardcore crowds. There are a number of people in the first group that do fund the game, quite extensively in some cases. All hardcores on the other hand buy gems for gold.
I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Usually, the people that pay the most are the group that is sometimes called “dedicated casuals”. People that are strongly emotionally tied to the game, that spend a lot of time on it, but also do not want to work too hard, and whose playstyle is mostly casual (incidentally, lot of people in that group are veteran gamers tired of hardcore playstyle, that now want to take it easily – like, for example me… or Vayne).
Perhaps it is different in gw2, of course (i have no way of knowing for certain) but i really doubt it. Here, the hardcores can farm, they don’t need to spend money (and quite often don’t have that money, because lot of hardcores are younger and don’t work yet). It’s the people that can’t catch up to them (but have a steady income… and due to that also less time) that often try to shorten the gap with cash.
You think they did it to improve people? I doubt it. I think they did it to give us harder content that isn’t zergable.
Either way – I’m not sure how you know that they were “appalled” at the average player’s skill level but they shouldn’t be. They made this game so easy and so “press 1 to win everything forever” that it shouldn’t really surprise them the player base is in this state.
There’s no mechanics that punish you for being bad, slow, ineffective or uninformed. I’d find it amusing if they were surprised people were bad in a game where there’s almost no incentive to get good.
I have nothing against casuals. Most of them don’t even care about the hardcore or the rewards. Most of them are so casual they’re very disconnected.
The problem appears when the “dedicated casuals” like you or Vayne start militating against other people’s fun because it would “ruin theirs”.
Even though it’s been pointed out numerous times that somebody having something doesn’t take it away from you.
Someone being more rewarded doesn’t reward you less doing the content that you like.But this is already beside the point.
You’re going to believe and support whatever you want to believe and support. I’m going to do the same.
I’m really curious what you guys think about what Anet intends to do wit the new " Raid Dev" they’re looking to hire.
Hopefully not casual-oriented content – but that’s just me.All I’ve been trying to do is point out that this game has a hardcore crowd. This crowd is starved of content and the direction the game is going towards right now isn’t helping the situation.
Casuals already have everything in this game :
From the “press 1 to win everything forever” megazerg farms to FOTM lower levels there’s actually no content a casual can’t approach and succeed with the barest minimum of effort. Yes – even the most hardcore content in this game has its very own casual friendly variant.
And the rewards? Same as the game’s top notch players.
That in my opinion is inherently flawed.
And that’s also why the player base is so " bad " like you pointed out. Because there was no reason or motive to drive them to “get good”.
I wouldn’t use the word appauled, but they did post about why the content was hard. They wanted to “stretch” players and make them better at the game. They said so, that’s how we know. It was a post on the forums.
They said that they wanted the community to come together and they wanted people to learn. They also said that until the community did learn they couldn’t put even more difficult content into the game. While I don’t remember it word for word, I will say that the implication to me seems like a lot of people needed to get better before Anet could really add harder content.
Once again, confronted with truth, Vayne throws a smoke bomb and vanishes from sight to await a more comfortable post to comment upon!
Is it about feeding cows. I think it’s something really small to worth arguing about.
Granted many people may felt really deeply about feeding the cow with all the black lion key farming run…
A short list of some of the removed content, from the top of my head. It’s very basic, because I strive to avoid starting zones now. They make me sad.
A whole lake in Metrica. Along with the shark, released by the evil scientists. An awesome event, one of the best I remembered from my noobship.
The golem chess and golem assistants with their faulty staves in Metrica.
Taking cannonballs in Plains of Ashford from the skritt, now we only can kill them.
The leopards in the Wayfarer’s heart have 1 skill left of 4, making hunting a boring chore.
We can’t feed the bear cubs in Wayfarer’s.
A whole personal story arc.
We can’t throw mines we pick up on Plains of Ashford to kill the Flame Legion anymore.
Eda no longer sells famous Eda’s apple pie.
The gathering nodes evaporated, to even further the monotony of the early zones.
Vayne, got no problem you blocked me, you’re not a person I’d like to have any closer contact with, just wanted to check your general gamestyle, you being a creature I learned to rather despise due to your way of conducting conversations and effectively opposing any kind of betterment that could’ve come from criticising the Anet’s faulty decisions.
Not being able to feed the bears in Wayfarer Foothills is removing content? So noted. I think everyone can take what they want from that list.
I love how you completely avoid answering posts presenting you with indisputable evidence that content has been removed, Vayne. Discussion with you is a one-of-the-kind experience, truly.
When people talked about temporary content, they were talking about content put in for a short time and removed. They weren’t talking about altered content that’s been sitting around for two years. What you’re doing is moving the bar. Including things in a category that isn’t what people were talking about all this time.
It’s disingenuous, and it means nothing.
It’s what most reasonable people would call a red herring.
Talking about problems with content being temporary and about other, permanent content, disappearing completely, does not fit into one discussion for you? Whoo-eee, you’re far out.
I don’t. By the way, I blocked you in game. No clue why you’d add me to your friend’s list. It’s clear we don’t see eye to eye on anything.
For months and months we’ve been talking about temporary content, stuff added to the game with the express purpose of being removed. That WAS the conversation.
Taking out a couple of options from a heart, or even adding in options was never something we talked about. If I talked about all the minor niggling changes to what was added and put in, we could be here for a long time. I could itemize every single item put in and it would be a hell of a lot longer than what they took out.
They’re taking icons new players don’t need off the maps in order so that they can focus on the icons they’re supposed to focus on. I learned to ride a bike the same way you did. My dad was a big believer in going out and doing stuff yourself and try and if you fall off, get back on again.
It doesn’t change the fact that a lot of dads aren’t like that and a lot of people weren’t raised that way.
Some people need more guidance, or more encouragement or more direction. They need to assimilate stuff more slowly. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
I know what the NPE looks like to a brand new player though. I made the free account specifically to see it with “new” eyes. The problems I ran into though were jarring to me (a vet), and I could just imagine how jarring it would be for a brand spanking new player. To continue the bike analogy real fast, it would be as if you had training wheels on the bike and after riding for a block, someone suddenly threw some confetti at you, but you had no idea why, then after a few more blocks and some more confetti at random points someone blasts an airhorn in your face and hands you a small present for going 10 blocks. No explanation WHY you got the confetti and the small present, just that you got it. This is what “finding” POIs that you can’t see and doing dailies or monthlies before they are made visible to you is like for a new player. Not to mention the frustration of seeing someone walk up to a skill point communing spot, do something funky and have that plum of light shoot up around them and when you get there it tells you that its not for you. No explanation. Just not for you. Or when you see someone who knows what a Vista is running up to it and an icon appear above their head, you still may not know what its there for or if you should check it out because the icon isn’t there. Then suddenly…ICONS. Then suddenly…SKILL POINTS. Then suddenly…wait, i though there wre training wheels on this bike. Nope, those were just torn off and you have a personal story to start now that you have your last weapon skill unlocked on your bar. Oh, and those other weapons you have…yeah, those might be fun. Learn them while you do that story. Good luck.
That, to me, is a broken system that does nothing but hurt a new player.
Well, as I said, at least one of my friends likes it better and feels it explains the game better than the old system. But you know, he’s one guy. It might be that some people will find it worse and some people will find it better.
Supposedly Anet tested it. This free weekend will give them the answers they need. I’m sure if they have to tweak it they will.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Marionette people doing badly isn’t about casual vs hardcore- it’s about new content being new.
I’m a hardcore player and I had trouble at Marionette before I researched it and figured out what to do.But you’re right – there’s a lot of people who have no clue. And I believe that’s because they don’t care enough about the game. So I doubt they’ll care enough to spend.
A whole lot of casuals I know spend a whole lot of money in the gem store. Just saying. It would be a big mistake to think hard core players are funding the game.
As far as me knowing or not know, you’re right I don’t know. But I DO remember comments that devs have made over the years at least implying that hard core players were a minority, the most recent one from a Lotro dev, which has been posted many times on the forums.
So you have no evidence and I have circumstantial evidence, but neither of us know.
The thing is, if hard core players were some kind of majority, why don’t we see more hard core games? Why is the industry constantly being dumbed down?
I’m sorry to say but I don’t really think this is LoTRo.
Because more and more casual players are seeping into the market – that’s fact.
But I doubt that after the initial purchase they keep spending money on the game. Most casuals I know bought the game and then didn’t bother with anything else.GW2 lives off its gem store – so while a lot of casual players might have bought it I doubt it’s the casual players that play in 1-2 times a week that support it.
It doesn’t matter that the majority of buyers are casual. Their money is gone now. Anet has it.
The money that matters is the money that keeps coming in every day through the gem store.
A casual player, often, is more likely to buy something they like, because they’re not as likely to farm for it, or accumulate huge amounts of money. Many casuals work too much to be hard core and so spending the money means less to them. It’s a hobby. They spend money on it.
and the game will die if we dont get new and challenging content.
Yepp :
With 3 Million players and growing since launch
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1884
I don’t think NCSoft would write the same about Wildstar with all its challenging content.
You believe in truth I. Advertising? Novel concept. Once again wildstar isn’t really hard. Maybe high level raids are, but that is a minority of its content. Hve you played the game?
A lot of people did find Wildstar hard. It’s certainly harder than GW 2.
I’m not saying that the majority of the players who play are hard core. In fact I doubt that’s the case. But we don’t know.
Just like you don’t know if the majority is casual.One thing I think is pretty much certain is that the hardcore players are the ones that are funding the game most likely.
Why ? Because the more hardcore you are the more you’re going to care about the game. The more you care about something the more you’re willing to spend on it.I doubt it’s Casual Chris or No-Worries William who longs in now and sometime next week who dumps hundreds of dollars in the gem store upgrading his account and looks.
Marionette people doing badly isn’t about casual vs hardcore- it’s about new content being new.
I’m a hardcore player and I had trouble at Marionette before I researched it and figured out what to do.But you’re right – there’s a lot of people who have no clue. And I believe that’s because they don’t care enough about the game. So I doubt they’ll care enough to spend.
A whole lot of casuals I know spend a whole lot of money in the gem store. Just saying. It would be a big mistake to think hard core players are funding the game.
As far as me knowing or not know, you’re right I don’t know. But I DO remember comments that devs have made over the years at least implying that hard core players were a minority, the most recent one from a Lotro dev, which has been posted many times on the forums.
So you have no evidence and I have circumstantial evidence, but neither of us know.
The thing is, if hard core players were some kind of majority, why don’t we see more hard core games? Why is the industry constantly being dumbed down?
Thanks for this feedback, it’s very informative!
What rubs me the wrong way is that this looks like a confirmation by an Anet official that this is exactly the kind of player they want to appeal to…
I’d just love a clarification if this is the route this game will take from now on (/since a few patches ago) or if we can expect some changes and additions that aren’t targetted at people who are overwhelmed by bank space (what?!).
See the thing is I have been playing this game since the beta and have invested close to 2000 hours in game.
I more than anyone would like to see changes that would affect end game users.
I have no problems with new players joining a game as ultimately, that’s how a community grows.
I also work for a software company and have been involved with blended learning for over 8 years. As a result I understand that the core founding’s of an application need to be in order before significant changes can be made that will impact experienced users, after all if you are experienced, you already know the basics…
You are not a new player and cannot appreciate the view of a new user. This patch was not tailored to veterans, it was aimed at improvements to people who are new.
This does not mean that improvements for veterans will not come, its just that improvements come from the ground up.
Here’s the thing,
when I was a kid and i got my first bike, I didn’t get one with training wheels. My “training wheels” was my dad holding the back of the seat as i learned how to center my weight on the seat. At some point he let go and didn’t tell me, and I flopped right off the thing. I didn’t get angry at him and refuse to ride the bike since he told me I went a good 20 feet without him there. All I did was tell him to warn me when he let go. The next time, he did and I made an effort to keep myself righted on my own and never needed his help riding a bike after that.While i’m all for certain parts of the gameplay being worked into the environment for early level learning, I feel like they’ve brought the 1-15 areas (or rather the 1-7 level parts of them) down to a pre-school level, then shift it to about 5th grade level with no real warning, whereas before the NPE I felt it was more of a gradual 2-8th grade progression through the 1-15 areas. In essence all they really needed to add to the NPE was better reward progression and explanations of things to do and how to do them. They still need to add proper dodge tutorials and combo field lessons.
I’ve already suggested elswhere in one of these kitten posts about using an Ettin type trainer/heart thing to teach the dodging, and I’m sure there are other skill challenges (perhaps the one by the floating wizards island) where combo fields and advanced dodging can be taught.
Also, I’m sorry, but confused by banks and storage/crafting materials? Other than Anet needing to maybe show mew players where to go to see/store those items and then an actual tutorial on how to craft at the crafting tables when first getting your initial crafting profession, new players need to take it upon themselves to talk to NPCs and read what they have to say. Also, as everyone else has done for YEARS: ask in map and consult the wiki. The information is out there. its best they get used to looking up things in the wiki early on anyway since thats the only way they are going to have any idea where to go to get half of their traits anyway.
They’re taking icons new players don’t need off the maps in order so that they can focus on the icons they’re supposed to focus on. I learned to ride a bike the same way you did. My dad was a big believer in going out and doing stuff yourself and try and if you fall off, get back on again.
It doesn’t change the fact that a lot of dads aren’t like that and a lot of people weren’t raised that way.
Some people need more guidance, or more encouragement or more direction. They need to assimilate stuff more slowly. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
The problem with Vayne isn’t that he’s myopic. The problem is that whether he knows it or not he’s a herder. The kind of player that feels the intrinsic need to look out for others.
He’s also in a guild of massive casuals ( which he himself has pointed out numerous times).
From what I gather – the people in his guild are really inexperienced and what could only be summed up as “bad at the game” whether because they don’t care enough or don’t want to improve.He feels somewhat obliged to defend them, their way of playing and their “rights” in the game.
I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).Yes there’s a casual player base. But not all of them are “hyper-casual haven’t even touched Arah or fractals”.
Most of them aren’t completionists that will burn their copy of the game once a few exclusive items are out.The way I see it – the majority of casuals are so casual they’re clueless. Not in a bad way. They’re so disconnected from the game they pick it up – mash some stuff and log in some other time.
They have no idea what’s been added/changed, patched, updated.
They have no idea what most of the content is or does.I doubt they’d get mad over stuff they’ve likely never seen and probably wouldn’t even know what it is if they saw it.
You’re completely wrong. I mean completely.
I am a herder and I do feel the need to defend certain people, but not the people in my guild. There are many people in my guild who are awesome at the game, and run through everything. Just not the majority of my guild. But I don’t think they’re doing anything wrong, so I don’t need to defend them.
What evidence do you have that most people that play these games are hard core? Have you EVER heard a dev say it?
Did you or did you not stand around at the Marionette and see quite easy fights become quite difficult people people didn’t really know what they were doing. I say most people are casual because I look around me at how most people are playing.
If they aren’t casual, they’re not very good. I don’t need to defend them to point out that they’re a majority.
There are a handful of people at the marionette that knew what was going on and a bunch of people who had no real clue.
That’s how it normally is in games. I’ve seen devs speak in numerous games about how few people do the hardest content. I’ve never seen a dev say that hard core players were some majority.
this is most because the game never asked them to learn anything for 90% of the game they were playing. IE, the casual skill level is low, because most of the game requires no skill. Its not because casuals are unable/lack desire, its because the game told them they didnt need to think about anything to win most encounters.
That’s a theory. Unfortunately I’ve seen a huge number of bad players in almost every game. The genre isn’t continually dumbed down because everyone gets it. That would make no sense.
If every MMO company is continually lowering the bar, then there’s got to be a reason for it. Somehow I don’t think that most players are great at the game is that reason.
I love how you completely avoid answering posts presenting you with indisputable evidence that content has been removed, Vayne. Discussion with you is a one-of-the-kind experience, truly.
When people talked about temporary content, they were talking about content put in for a short time and removed. They weren’t talking about altered content that’s been sitting around for two years. What you’re doing is moving the bar. Including things in a category that isn’t what people were talking about all this time.
It’s disingenuous, and it means nothing.
It’s what most reasonable people would call a red herring.
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
The problem with Vayne isn’t that he’s myopic. The problem is that whether he knows it or not he’s a herder. The kind of player that feels the intrinsic need to look out for others.
He’s also in a guild of massive casuals ( which he himself has pointed out numerous times).
From what I gather – the people in his guild are really inexperienced and what could only be summed up as “bad at the game” whether because they don’t care enough or don’t want to improve.He feels somewhat obliged to defend them, their way of playing and their “rights” in the game.
I don’t know if he himself realizes this or not.
The sad part is that everyone has a guild – and while his might be super casual the people in my guild are mostly hardcore.
It’s like he looks at the 100-150 casuals he plays with daily and assumes most players are like that ( which probably isn’t the case).Yes there’s a casual player base. But not all of them are “hyper-casual haven’t even touched Arah or fractals”.
Most of them aren’t completionists that will burn their copy of the game once a few exclusive items are out.The way I see it – the majority of casuals are so casual they’re clueless. Not in a bad way. They’re so disconnected from the game they pick it up – mash some stuff and log in some other time.
They have no idea what’s been added/changed, patched, updated.
They have no idea what most of the content is or does.I doubt they’d get mad over stuff they’ve likely never seen and probably wouldn’t even know what it is if they saw it.
You’re completely wrong. I mean completely.
I am a herder and I do feel the need to defend certain people, but not the people in my guild. There are many people in my guild who are awesome at the game, and run through everything. Just not the majority of my guild. But I don’t think they’re doing anything wrong, so I don’t need to defend them.
What evidence do you have that most people that play these games are hard core? Have you EVER heard a dev say it?
Did you or did you not stand around at the Marionette and see quite easy fights become quite difficult people people didn’t really know what they were doing. I say most people are casual because I look around me at how most people are playing.
If they aren’t casual, they’re not very good. I don’t need to defend them to point out that they’re a majority.
There are a handful of people at the marionette that knew what was going on and a bunch of people who had no real clue.
That’s how it normally is in games. I’ve seen devs speak in numerous games about how few people do the hardest content. I’ve never seen a dev say that hard core players were some majority.
Yes those numbers account for the launch and the China release and include subs (which most likely are not there anymore).
If you look at glassdoor and several recent ex-employees that have made comments on the matter, the actual base is nowhere near the size of those numbers (300-350).
I’m actually stunned that people think 300-350 people would be able to keep their jobs if their jobs resulted in what we’ve seen in terms of this game. That many people are capable of so much more.
Those glassdoor reviews are fascinating reading, a real eye-opener!
Reading a few of the reviews I was pleased and worried (but not surprised) to see just how closely they are to my own suspicions about ArenaNet.
I wholeheartedly recommend that everyone read them, just google “glassdoor arenanet”.
Yes but read them all, not just the ones that agree with your personal pet theories.
Vayne, large chunks of content from the hearts and early events have been removed and replaced with spamming F or just blown to hell altogether, right? So, seemingly permanent content has been deemed not as permanent as we thought it to be, yes? Mistakes have been made, yes?
Changing how a heart works is VERY VERY different from removing content. As an example, every single AC path was changed to have different bosses and not one single person ever claimed they removed content. But those old bosses were not in the game anymore.
This is making an argument to try to prove a point. Content changes all the time. Battles get nerfed. Things get buffed. When they added elites to the world, no one came and said, look we have new foes..but they were new foes.
The changed some hearts in the early area, they didn’t remove them. And in some cases, they added ways to get those hearts that didn’t exist before.
So I’ve said a number of times, I’d have no real issue with harder content if the rewards were sellable.
It would give people who like hard content something to do. It would give people who don’t like hard content something to farm for.
Those who say they want hard content would have stuff to do. But I get the distinct feeling that people are so resistant to it, because they just want to show off in a video game.
I’ve said it as a compromise several times in this thread, and people still say I’m against hard content being added to the game.
I’m against rewards being added to the game that only a small percentage of people can get…and you know, I’ll probably do the hard content myself anyway. I almost never buy rewards. But I really do think it will affect the game.
And it was the standard in Guild Wars 1 anyway. Guild Wars 1 players would be right at home.
There isn’t any more temporary content. The closest we’ve had since the end of the last living story is seasonable or recurring content, which isn’t temporary.
With the September patch, content that had been here from launch turned out to be more ‘temporary content’. As in, poof! Gone.
Give me a break. The heart changes aren’t what people were referring to as temporary content. They were changed, but they’re still in the game as hearts.
It’s funny how people ignore a new zone when they want to say Anet added nothing, but they’re happy to try to point to a change in early hearts as temporary content. This is about as disingenuous as it gets.
@KalaGrey
I roundly applaud your efforts in taking on Vayne’s myopic opinions, however, you must realise it is a lost cause, and in the end not worth the effort.
The sad thing is this game has already been left to the Vaynes and the super casuals coming and going through the revolving door. Oh, and lets not forget the multiple account gold sellers, bot runners, etc, All these are the ecosystem of GW2, each thriving off each other, driving theANET/NCSoft business model.
Veteran players have no place in this system, and we are being firmly frog-marched out the door.
Vayne is a veteran. Just saying.
You’ve got to be kidding me. Do you even realize how many events were simply broken at launch. Do you really think they wanted to launch without a trading post preview, or the ability to sort by light armor type? Do you think that stuff like the fractals weren’t already in progress before launch? Do you think they really had enough time even to make Arah story mode the dungeon it might have been.
According to a dev that I knew in game, the technology of the moving platforms that allowed them to build Arah only arrived 2 weeks before the game came out.
There’s plenty of stuff that isn’t more content or awards adjustment that could have been done before launch, including a looking for group tool, that wouldn’t have required feedback from players at all.
Bugs happen at launch no matter how much they work on an MMO. The question is how much time it’s going to take to fix them. On TP thing, no I don’t think that they had in mind “Let’s launch TP without armor filters” ,but maybe they didn’t think about it. On fractal, If I remember correctly, the Consortium launched expedition to the mists, which means they wanted to release it with southsun cove & the first “Living story” experience. On the arah thing, I guess you can say the last batte is rushed, but it is still rushed after 2 years.
I’m not saying everything was added due to player feedback, but a loads of things, yes. I’m not so sure anet wanted to launch with an ingame LFG tool. Wardrobe was asked many times, long before it’s launch. WvWers wanted progression. Dungeon people wanted reward buff. PvPers wanted new mode (I guess I can say it now it’s coming) NPE great example too, it was created due new player staying ratio wasn’t that good.
GvGers wanted arena. Guild folks wanted activities. List goes on and on ….
We’re not talking about a couple of bugs. If you got to Orr relatively fast, you’d know more than half the events in Orr were bugged. This wasn’t just some casual statement. The game wasn’t ready to be launched, and if you think it was…you’re entitled to that opinion.
In my opinion they launched early because they were pressured to launch by other considerations. It’s okay if you don’t believe it…plenty of people however do.
my conclusion is based on – when Kekai Kotaki left anet in mid 2012, he had been with the company for 8 years, also he’s not just some random concept artist, he’s won awards for his work which is pretty much the guild wars art style we all love, so it strikes me as odd that a couple month before gw2s launch he decides to leave, also your the one who mentioned head ppl leaving, quite interesting how you forgot to respond to that part of the argument, im still curious why they left.
and what were your conclusions based on when you tried to argue Brooks’ law, inflation, bandwidth etc as a reason to justify lack of content and anet milking the cash shop? so in the very least you’ve also concluded terribly on more than one occasion, but for you to not recognise that is a strong point to concluded your arguing irrationally and its unlikely that we’ll be able to find any conclusion to agree upon.
The average amount of time people work in jobs in the industry is probably about 8 years. If he got a better offer he’d leave. He’s never said or indicated that he left because of the direction of a company. You have no valid reason to believe that except that you have something against the direction of the company. Without evidence, your guess is a guess.
My comments with Brook’s Law was in direct response to someone who claimed that adding more people couldn’t slow down production. It’s a non-true statement. It can absolutely slow down production. It was valid and it was a response.
One person claims something easily disproved or at least contested. I contested it. You claim something with no evidence at all and I contest it. Do you see a pattern?
Or do you have some evidence for your claim other than you think it’s true?
your assertion to brooks law is no more substantial then me drawing a conclusion about anets business practices based on 2 years of gws2, in fact me drawing conclusions from their business practices after 2 years is far more convicting than quoting brooks law, then you say I have something against the direction of the company as if I haven’t made it plainly clearly what and why, you speak of evidence when we’re both obviously speculating conclusions on possibility’s, that’s why I believe youre irrational because you count what you’ve said as evidence when its in fact at the very most just as speculative as the conclusions I’ve made, so yes I do see a pattern, one in which your have a strong subjective bias towards your own opinion.
You obviously can’t tell the difference between refuting a statement to show it’s not necessarily 100% accurate, or making a statement.
I didn’t instigate anything. I didn’t make a statement. I RESPONDED to a statement. That changes the entire dynamic.
If I came into these forums and said, straight out, that adding more people won’t slow down the production of a program, you’d have every right to be saying what you’re saying….but I didn’t do that at all.
I was replying to someone who was making a claim. That is it say, I was showing the POSSIBILITY that what that person was saying, and stating with great certainty, was possibly not as certain as they were claiming. The same about Kekai. I never EVER claimed to know why he left Anet.
I’m simply pointing out possibilities, because someone else claimed to know why.
If you have no evidence, don’t make claims. If you do make claims with no evidence, don’t expect people to just accept what you say. I’m within my right to RESPOND with alternate reasons why this might happen.
If you have evidence, by all means present it. I don’t think you do.
I don’t have evidence either. It’s why I RESPOND to statements like yours rather than MAKING them.
Not quite.
It’s purely an objective matter that your statistical performance is not affected by cosmetics, titles, or minipets (unless they’d by some rather silly decision grant the user special bonuses).
It is however subjective to say you feel forced/compelled to play challenging content just so you can have everything completed. It is also subjective to say players would feel disenfranchised if a couple of such features were to be implemented (some might, but you cannot say with certainty how many that would be, nor can you prove it would have serious negative impacts on the game, i.e. gemstore revenues).My point, which is basicaly Harper’s point, is that adding in challenging content with unique rewards would not hinder you to play your game, because it’d be completely optional and would not add to vertical progression. That is pure logic. Now, if I take your approach to putting everything in % and playerbase minority vs majority , I dare say that the number of vets who would benefit from such change would dwarf the number of disappointed completionists by far, and it is an estimate I consider quite accurate.
But to say that the only fact is intentionally misleading. It’s a fact that completionists exist. That’s not theory, that’s a fact. It’s a fact even that some people will do content they don’t enjoy to get rewards. If you think those aren’t facts, I’m not really sure what to tell you.
The fact that your statistical performance isn’t increased or decreased is mostly relevant to min/maxers and people who care about stats. Are they are majority? A minority? Clearly, you’re one of the people to whom stats are massively important, so you come to the erroneous conclusion that it’s okay to have rewards that other people want, because they don’t need them.
But you don’t need those stats, even if they are better. It’s not a fact that you need them. It’s your desire for them. It’s that you want them. It wouldn’t be okay to you if these rewards gave higher stats. And that’s the difference. There are people who care less about stats and more about minipets or skins. That’s also a fact, by the way.
So your suggestion that they give no reward means you don’t need them is just your opinion. You don’t need higher stats, but you’re basically saying you would if they offered them.
That’s what we’re arguing about. You think your way is the only way. I think the issue is more complex.
Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.
I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…
Except that the hungry bunnies do still knock you over if you’re not careful. I know this for a fact because it happened to my newest character the other day when I did that particular renown heart, which is now located at the bottom of the cliff in Taigan Groves. And, in point of fact, I have no quarrel with it. The renown heart as it was previously was quite tedious and the bunnies were really a bit too active, plus which you ran the risk of falling to your death if you were in the wrong spot. This new version goes a lot faster. (I also notice that nobody seems to have commented on the new state of the renown heart involving trade with the jotun. There are a lot of low-level enemies there now which makes the heart go much faster because you can kill them to get it done and get XP in the process, which IMO greatly improves that heart, which previously was the most boring one in Wayfarer.)
Cos game experiance is about getting everything faster. FASTER, MORE NUMBERS NOW GO GO GO
No, sorry, I hate the fact that they dumbed down jotuns, too. Don’t bother trading with jotuns, it doesn’t matter that it’s what the heart’s about, waste of time, run around slaying wolves! Sorry but there are hundreds of hearts where you just kill things. This one was different and that was good.
Bunnies required fast learning how to dodge in the best way possible. Now you just get knocked once, oh well, you get another bag and the heart’s done. Cool.
People keep saying more freedom is better, but then you have a heart like that with almost no freedom. Almost every heart has more than one way to finish them. Not all, but most. That’s freedom. People keep arguing that the new NPE is anti-freedom, and then they give people more freedom in a heart and people complain.
I’ve got 18 80th level characters and I’m well on my way to 20. I don’t ever want to trade again, thanks.
I like it better like it is now.
The only fact here is that adding minipets, titles, or cosmetics to challenging content would in no way affect your character’s performance, or their desirability/viability in groups.
If one is a completionist or a min/maxer then I suppose they will have to bite the bullet (at least they’d have something to strive for, though), just like the vets had to ‘suck it up’ each time content was implemented which wasn’t aimed at them and which even went sof ar as to spoil their game experience.
p.s. You stated in one of your posts that you yourself would feel pressured into a particular challenging content – how you absolutely intend to complete it, actually – if it were implemented:
If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.I do wonder, in all honesty, how that would change ‘the entire dynamic of the game. For you, perhaps? Because you have an atypical way of playing the game (completionist). But wouldn’t that by default place you in this rumoured minority you keep on bringing up when advocating for or against changes?
The fact that you claim that’s the only fact makes your other comments automatically suspect. There are many facts. You choose to see only one.
If you maintain there is only one fact, there is absolutely no reason to discuss anything with you.
Brooks’ law might be valid in this case, then again it might not, its difficult for a player to have the insight to know, however there are other possibility’s which seem logical, I remember reading right at launch that concept artist Kekai Kotaki was calling it quits with anet, I really wondered why, it seemed like the best time to be part of that company, about a 8 month to a year later I concluded that he must have left because he realised the direction the game was headed, these other 2 head guys you speak of, I had no idea about, but again what were their reasons? we don’t know what drove them to leave, it may very well have been that they had insight on the direction the game was headed.
Terrible conclusion. He was a concept artist. Concept artist’s are often used most heavily before the game launches. It’s extremely likely he actually had less to do later on, because he probably expected new areas to be developed faster. A lot of artistic people leave jobs because their particular talents aren’t really needed for the phase the game was in. Concept artists are almost always the first to go when a game launches. That’s very common. So what exactly is your conclusion based on?
my conclusion is based on – when Kekai Kotaki left anet in mid 2012, he had been with the company for 8 years, also he’s not just some random concept artist, he’s won awards for his work which is pretty much the guild wars art style we all love, so it strikes me as odd that a couple month before gw2s launch he decides to leave, also your the one who mentioned head ppl leaving, quite interesting how you forgot to respond to that part of the argument, im still curious why they left.
and what were your conclusions based on when you tried to argue Brooks’ law, inflation, bandwidth etc as a reason to justify lack of content and anet milking the cash shop? so in the very least you’ve also concluded terribly on more than one occasion, but for you to not recognise that is a strong point to concluded your arguing irrationally and its unlikely that we’ll be able to find any conclusion to agree upon.
The average amount of time people work in jobs in the industry is probably about 8 years. If he got a better offer he’d leave. He’s never said or indicated that he left because of the direction of a company. You have no valid reason to believe that except that you have something against the direction of the company. Without evidence, your guess is a guess.
My comments with Brook’s Law was in direct response to someone who claimed that adding more people couldn’t slow down production. It’s a non-true statement. It can absolutely slow down production. It was valid and it was a response.
One person claims something easily disproved or at least contested. I contested it. You claim something with no evidence at all and I contest it. Do you see a pattern?
Or do you have some evidence for your claim other than you think it’s true?
Why do people claim skins are just released in the gemstore… granted its not 60% 40% in favor of in-game but there were a total of 5 full armor skins released in-game and 7 in the gem store. Not to mention thats not counting the truckload of weapons skins released in-game and the many single armor piece we got … 2 truckloads of back items and some loose stuff like the dragon helmet, the molten gloves, aetherized shoulders etc…
Are you people unaware of these or just exaggerate to make a point?
Really, 5 full armor sets? Besides the Ascended armor and the Glorious one, I seem to have lost 3 in the count (btw I don’t consider AP armor as part of the armor set, since they can only be obtained if you spend quite the amount of time doing things you might not like for the sake of getting points).
I don’t talk about simple pieces, of course there are many. I’m counting complete 6-piece armor set (and, let’s play the game, costumes too). Most of them were released in gemstore. Same for weapons: 11 sets were released in BLC. Guess what? Before people had to farm keys, now it’s longer, or they can… Buy keys with gems! As for the rest: they were temporary and now end up being out of reach for most players.
Either we get temporary content or content that needs farming.
Not get, got. There isn’t any more temporary content. The closest we’ve had since the end of the last living story is seasonable or recurring content, which isn’t temporary.
Anet fixed something but people continue to bring it up as if it’s still an issue. It caused some of the issues we have now, but it’s not an issue anymore. Bringing it up now feels disingenuous to me.
Vayne you say that you’d feel forced to get the new items (are you a compeltionist?), despite the fact it would not mean any statistical change, which boils down to the ’it’s all in your head’ issue, and that doesn’t quite hold water because, as people say with ascended and gem store cosmetics, you’re able to play the game perfectly well without any of the fluff .
Moreover, it’d be impossible to topple the amount of features and items available to everyone, especially with their glacial pace of adding new things to the actual game, so why so concerned?
As NoTrigger said, it’s optional. And we can all agree that those ‘optionals’ will never be able to outnumber the ‘generally availables’.
I didn’t say forced…I said pressured. As long as you continue to misquote me, I’ll continue to correct you. I’m also pretty sure I didn’t say I’d feel pressured, I said people would feel pressured.
People right now, at this moment, have posted in this very forum saying that they feel pressured to do dailies, even though they clearly don’t need to do them. Some people feel pressured to do even more dailies than the five required to get their laurel.
Do I think that’s silly. Sure I do. If you like doing them, do them. If you don’t like doing them don’t do them. You can’t account for everyone.
I’m saying I think the percentage of people who would feel pressured to do that,. whether it’s right or not, whether it’s justifiable or not,. whether you understand it or not, is all irrelevent…people are not logical. They’re not wind up dolls. They’re not machines. They have feelings and emotions. These games play…and are often designed to play…on those feelings and emotions.
People who are completionists, who are OCD, or who min/maxers, every one of these groups can be manipulated to do content they don’t like to do.
And some people are okay with that and some people aren’t.
It doesn’t matter if it’s right. It doesn’t matter that you don’t get it. It’s out there. It happens. That’s not my opinion, that’s a fact.
The main Q Harper was asking, and which (to my knowledge) remained unanswered was why was it inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards.
No one said it’s inherently wrong. It might however be inherently bad for business, which would be Anet’s main concern.
No one said it’s wrong to reward people for playing harder content. I certainly have never said it. I’m saying that whether it’s wrong or it’s not wrong, if there’s enough of it,. a certain percentage of people might feel disenfranchised and think the game is no longer for them. How big a percentage of the playerbase would feel that way I don’t know…but I suspect it’s as larger or larger than the percentage of the player base that want those rewards.
This isn’t a moral discussion about right and wrong. It’s a question about are there enough players to support a hard core play style and by doing so, will other players, rightly or wrongly, be affected.
I didn’t answer the question because it’s not actually relevant to Anet’s decision on the matter…in my opinion.
I have been playing GW2 since it’s launch. I was in the head start and before that the beta. For the longest time GW was one of my favorite franchises, I earned enough points in GW to obtain all the HoM items and spent well over $300.00 within the GW2 gem store.
I have had many guild members and friends quit GW2 already because they felt cheated out of the game, they too had played since the beginning and never once did a precursor drop for them, not once did they feel that the rewards of Guild Wars 2 were strong enough to keep playing for, and I am starting to think they were right.
You and your friends are right. I too have been an avid player since GW:Prophecies. My guildmates and friends and I made the transfer to GW2 during beta and headstart. A year after launch my friend’s list was halfway active, tack on another year and it’s dead. This is a list of 40+ diehards of whom I spent countless hours in UW, The Deep, Urgoz, FoW, DoA, rolling alts after alts with. Farming ectos and shards and armbraces til the cows came home. We played Guild Wars because our efforts were rewarded. We played Guild Wars because the develop created new continents filled with new races, classes, enemies, quests and missions.
Where are those types of rewards in GW2? Where are those new types of lands filled mysterious enemies waiting to unleash havoc?
Just today I logged in after a three week layoff to see I was kicked from my guild because I didn’t “fit the culture” anymore. Well, if that culture is running through the same content that’s been stagnate for over two years than yes I do not fit that culture. In fact, I refuse to be affiliated with a culture that accepts ill-conceived and executed development work for the sake up updating a release notes page every two weeks. I refuse to keep my head in the sand and accept Arenanet’s poor decision-making of late.
If Arenanet wishes to see their game return to the level of excellency it once enjoyed then give the players what they want: an expansion with a stronger, more everlasting reward system. You can keep your Gem Store skins.
You remind me of my friend who used to love war games…you know the ones with the big hex maps that you played with cardboard counters. Well maybe you don’t know. At one point, this shop called the Compleat Strategist in NYC was selling those types of games all over the place. And when Dungeons and Dragons came out, they had a tiny little shelf for it.
As time went on, that shelf became a rack. More and more RPGs came out and more and more, the war games were relegated to smaller and smaller areas, until there was only one shelf of them.
Times change. Those who want to hang onto the past are welcome to. It won’t stop progress. More people played Dungeons and Dragons than probably all those war games combined. Companies made a lot of money on RPGs.
The same can be said for this. The die-hards, the hard core, those who can’t adapt will fall away from these games, kicking and screaming the whole way. And yeah, it sucks. I’d rather have some more old school games myself.
I simply don’t see it happening. For better or for worse, this is where the genre’s going and there are too many people who are going to support it for anyone to make a game for me.
I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.
I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.
Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.
If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.
But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.
Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.
Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.
I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.
These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.
Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.
snip.
And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.
There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?
Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.
I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.snip
Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.
Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?
And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?
Why should you enjoy yourself over me?
I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.
It’s rather hilarious, really.
When one mentions how the game implemented vertical gear progression with fractals and thus even further restricted building freedom, the apologists hurry to defend such design choices by claiming ‘oh but you don’t need it to play the game’, yet in the same moment you see such nuggets of hypocrisy flying around from the very same posters.
I really like it how nicely you exposed those double standards.You do realize I dislike the concept of vertical progression and the fact that FOTM introduced it. I dislike the fact that a few months after launch we got new items with better stats to go for.
How is that having double standards?You misunderstood me, as I was actually approving and supporting your post.
I simply stated how your post pointed out the hypocrisy of people who tend to be apologetic of things such as ascended gear and typically invoke the ‘but you don’t need it to play the game’ argument, while at the same time they refuse to have cosmetics/minipets added as reward to a newly implemented challenging content, which would be even less impactful to one’s ability to play the game (as they do not compel the player to get said items in order to be able to play the game as such).
On second read, I can see how I worded the post in a rather bad manner though. My bad.you only hear what you want to hear.
And you’re the prime example of that.
No problem. It’s cool. I get what you mean now.
And yes – I do dislike the attitude of forgiving and overlooking most bad calls and mistakes with this game.
When I was younger, I was much harder on people. If people screwed up, I tended not to give much quarter. Maybe the first time. But my tolerance was pretty kitten ed low.
As I got older and started seeing more and more people not able to live up to standards I thought were normal, I began to realize that the only one my intolerance was hurting was myself. A good percentage of people aren’t going to meet high expectations..that’s why they’re high expectations.
Anet has over 300 employees working for them and they all have different levels of experience and expertise. There’s also probably a relatively high turnover. That’s business. The QA department is quite probably overworked and underpaid. They’re going to miss stuff…even if they had more time. I could be furious and jump up and down or I can say, well, I’m not in their shoes, I have no idea how hard their job is, how long they’ve been doing it for, how much renumeration they get for doing it, or any of a million other things. For all I know they reported bugs which were fixed and then got rebugged when someone else changed something else. I don’t know. So I give people the benefit of the doubt these days.
Back when I managed a business, I wasn’t nearly this forgiving….so yeah I get it.
Really? What is the problem with having challenging content? This game is full of stuff you can easily do with your eyes closed, why not have something so veteran players can do besides farming skins and AP?
If you don’t like raids or you think they’re not for you, fine. Don’t participate in that part of the game. I do the same with Ranked PvP. It’s not my thing and I don’t care about Esports, so just I do something else.
the jelly haters who are bad at the game want everything without effort.
thats the problem.It’s when the game has too many of these little things and casuals start feeling disenfranchised. You think it won’t happen, I think it might happen.
99% of this game is easy mode content spam 11111 win game.
its when the game only has easy mode content and the veterans start feeling disenfranchised.seriously dude….
You’re assuming all veterans want challenging content. It’s a kittenumption. The question isn’t whether you feel disenfranchised but how many people by percentage do.
If it’s 5-10% of the playerbase, it might not be enough to justify a whole lot of challenging content.
Yes, I assume a lot of people want challenging content. After1-2 years of repeating the same dungeons and fractals, I think they want something new, something that probably will last them longer and that they can repeat and enjoy.
And look, this doesn’t have to be only for the PvE Elite. There are ways of implementing something like this so everyone can do it. A very popular MMORPG does it with Normal and Hard modes, but there are also other alternatives. This way everyone wins.
Oh I agree a lot of people want new stuff, but that’s not the conversation we’re having here. The question is how many of those people really want to be challenged and what percentage of them are talking about the same level of challenge.
Would you believe there are people in this game for which dungeons are still challenging?