Guild Wars 2

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

I think you’re missing the point though. The point is the personal story was never really supposed to be the backbone of the game. Events were. They’ve always said that was the main thrust of the game.

A major tactical error. Events are fun, sure, and I enjoy having them in the game, but they don’t go anywhere. They just sit there and recycle. Sure, you may have a chain of events – but once you reach the end of the chain, where do you go from there?

For example, how many times have you heard:

Sentinel: “Look at this place. Titans, gods, dragons. They’re all the same. All they know is destruction!”

Sentinel: “When crossing the Brand, it’s best to walk softly and carry a big boom stick!”

Sentinel: “Some hate this duty. Not me. We’re the last line of defense against corruption. I take that seriously.”

At least with story missions there’s a sense of movement, of going somewhere, of (ta da) progression.

But, you might say, what happens when the story ends? Where do you go from there? Well, that’s what sequels are for.

Is it a tactical error? Did people, on the whole, like the personal story more? I don’t think so. Guild Wars 1 had very popular PvE but it was the same thing over and over.

munkiman.3068:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Orr was already a giant champ train before then.

Champ trains wouldn’t make sense, karma trains perhaps, but I don’t think that had anything to do with the creation of living story. Trains are not really a fun way to play the game and people aren’t playing them to have fun. Southsun cove was probably already in the works not long after release which means they had plans to do that without any information on what is going on in the game.

Yes I meant a karma train. There was a train. That’s the point. It probably wasn’t quite how Anet envisioned the game going.

The point is, trains or no trains, they released a new area with one time events ~ 80 days after release, which means they had to work on it not long after release or maybe even before release, which means the creation of the living story wasn’t based on anything going on ingame. (and during that release I was part of the biggest train ever ingame which means during the creation of it they didn’t count with the downsides of the trains. Only releases after this they tried to break down the train somehow. )

Okay, I agree with this. You may very well be right.

Thanks
But now the real question remains. If they had a system in which they could tell better stories easier, why create an entirely different system in which it’s much harder to tell any story, and on that new system even focus mainly on story?

I really don’t see any difference in how they tell the story in this game than they did with it’s predecessor. I mean all the story chunks are told in instances, aren’t they?

It’s not just the story. It’s the stuff AROUND the story.

You’re doing missions in Ascalon. Then you come out of those missions and everything in the open world, everything, goes back to the charr. But if you have a personal story in Caledon and you’re leveling in Queensdale, there’s no continuity out of the story. But here’s another example.

When you went into the Crystal Desert for the first time, Menhlo was waiting for you, with the other guys you’ve been with. In the instance, not the world..but it’s the equivalent of the world. He couldn’t be waiting for you in an open world because there might be 12 guys that need him to be there. There would have to be 12 Menhlos.

Anet could back up the missions (which are the equilvalent of the personal story) with the instanced world, which was the equivalent of the open world. There were many, many examples of this.

But Anet can’t take characters from your stories in Guild Wars 2 and put them in the open world. So your story gets no continuity with most of the other stuff you’re doing.

Even Orr. Orr is locked in Zhaitan days, before its defeat. It can’t change, because many players haven’t defeated Zhaitan. It has to remain as it is. But I did defeat Zhaitan. That zone should change. They can’t change it for me, without changing it for everyone.

On the other hand, they can’t make two zones to divide the playerbase either.

It’s not the same situation at all. In one game it’s ALL instanced. In this game there is an open world that doesn’t back up the story, so there’s less continuity. You’re not there with those characters 24/7.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Orr was already a giant champ train before then.

Champ trains wouldn’t make sense, karma trains perhaps, but I don’t think that had anything to do with the creation of living story. Trains are not really a fun way to play the game and people aren’t playing them to have fun. Southsun cove was probably already in the works not long after release which means they had plans to do that without any information on what is going on in the game.

Yes I meant a karma train. There was a train. That’s the point. It probably wasn’t quite how Anet envisioned the game going.

The point is, trains or no trains, they released a new area with one time events ~ 80 days after release, which means they had to work on it not long after release or maybe even before release, which means the creation of the living story wasn’t based on anything going on ingame. (and during that release I was part of the biggest train ever ingame which means during the creation of it they didn’t count with the downsides of the trains. Only releases after this they tried to break down the train somehow. )

Okay, I agree with this. You may very well be right.

Thanks
But now the real question remains. If they had a system in which they could tell better stories easier, why create an entirely different system in which it’s much harder to tell any story, and on that new system even focus mainly on story?

Because having an open world is better than having an instanced one to a whole lot of people, including me. If you’re only talking about story, and that’s all that matters, instanced content is better. I dislike instanced content as the main content of the game fora whole lot of reasons.

It doesn’t tell stories better, but it does other stuff better.

For example, every time I walked out into Guild Wars 1 into a zone, I knew what was in the zone, where every creature was, and I knew for a fact that I was on my own or with the people I was with.

Some of my favorite moments in Guild Wars 2 have been coming upon someone who randomly needed assistance and helping them out. Rezzing them during a champ fight, or whatever.

That can’t happen in an instanced game. It’s not as alive. If you want to make a living breathing world, instances are not sufficient, even if they do tell a story better.

Aguri.2896:

Vayne.8563:

Aguri.2896:

If they can make dungeons they have the technology to fix LA.

Sure they can. We have the technology now to put a manned outpost on the moon too but it’s not worth the cost involved in doing so.

No one said it can’t be done. But if it is a major undertaking, that means that it would take people away from other projects. If you’re new to the forums, you may not have noticed that everyone wants more content.

That doesn’t come under that category. That comes under the category of improving old content.

I’m guessing the cost/time to fix this issue would set back other plans.

How hard can it be to paste an already existing map into the game? Unless each individual map has some sort of ID or something tied to it that prevents the new Lion’s Arch from co-existing with the old one, I don’t see why it would be that difficult. Continuity is important for story and story seems to be important for this game. They took the time to re-do the trading post and hero’s tab, neither of which needed to be changed except for maybe the option to look for class specific armor, so why is this a problem?

They also need to do something about the other areas of the game that have been altered due to story, something that is really confusing if you aren’t there yet in the story. I realize that they probably don’t have the technology to fix the open maps for certain players as we haven’t seen an example of it in the game but it’s important too.

At the moment time is all messed up in the story. I don’t want to bash the game or the devs, but this lack of continuity breaks immersion and makes the game look sloppy.

It’s not a matter of pasting it into the game. It doesn’t work that way at all. When you enter an instance, you’re entering the world. It’s designed that way. To have it not default to the world requires programming. How hard would it be? Anet has already said, straight out, that they’re talking about what they can do, but that it would take a lot of work. The question was already brought up.

How hard can it be. Very, depending on how its set up now. Ask any programmer how hard stuff like that can be.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Orr was already a giant champ train before then.

Champ trains wouldn’t make sense, karma trains perhaps, but I don’t think that had anything to do with the creation of living story. Trains are not really a fun way to play the game and people aren’t playing them to have fun. Southsun cove was probably already in the works not long after release which means they had plans to do that without any information on what is going on in the game.

Yes I meant a karma train. There was a train. That’s the point. It probably wasn’t quite how Anet envisioned the game going.

The point is, trains or no trains, they released a new area with one time events ~ 80 days after release, which means they had to work on it not long after release or maybe even before release, which means the creation of the living story wasn’t based on anything going on ingame. (and during that release I was part of the biggest train ever ingame which means during the creation of it they didn’t count with the downsides of the trains. Only releases after this they tried to break down the train somehow. )

Okay, I agree with this. You may very well be right.

Aguri.2896:

If they can make dungeons they have the technology to fix LA.

Sure they can. We have the technology now to put a manned outpost on the moon too but it’s not worth the cost involved in doing so.

No one said it can’t be done. But if it is a major undertaking, that means that it would take people away from other projects. If you’re new to the forums, you may not have noticed that everyone wants more content.

That doesn’t come under that category. That comes under the category of improving old content.

I’m guessing the cost/time to fix this issue would set back other plans.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Orr was already a giant champ train before then.

Champ trains wouldn’t make sense, karma trains perhaps, but I don’t think that had anything to do with the creation of living story. Trains are not really a fun way to play the game and people aren’t playing them to have fun. Southsun cove was probably already in the works not long after release which means they had plans to do that without any information on what is going on in the game.

Yes I meant a karma train. There was a train. That’s the point. It probably wasn’t quite how Anet envisioned the game going.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

cranos.5913:

I feel lore-wise gw2 has always lacked. Other than Tybalt, I’ve yet to care for any character in the game, including my own. And on that point you’re right, I loved the GW1 missions back in the day and yes, you really did feel connected to your character a lot more.

Still, there’s no way I could go back to GW1 after playing this game. I simply love the combat, mainly because it’s fast and there’s no trinity. Now if they would only add difficult dungeon/fractal content this game would be perfect.

So yeah, both have their pro’s and cons, but personally I feel GW2 has more replay value.

I think you’re confusing lore and story. Story wise is probably what you’re talking about. Tybalt is part of the story, rather than the lore.

The lore is the background, the build up, the history. The games share history and both have great stories. In fact, much of the lore of Guild Wars 2 is the lore of Guild Wars 1.

It’s the stories that are the issue. I only clarify, because it’s important that people realize the difference so they get their message across to Anet.

Mind you it seems a lot of people do like Tiami. And I sort of like the new group, particularly Marjorie.

The most hilarious thing is when I think about GW2 is this: When they started working on it, they said they want to do things they can’t do in GW1. If living world was what they meant back then, GW1 (with some modifications) system with instanced areas would be much more fitting for it. In the very beginning of GW1 you saw a nation fall, cities getting destroyed , thousands getting slained. And this was the first few hours.
I don’t expect anything this big from living story since it can’t be done in open world, but in instanced you could fight off the titans , making them disappear from every region. You could kill off the plague , you could fight for the luxons/kurzicks to claim territory.

Also I have problems not only with the stories, but the lore. I feel like lore is getting ignored, especially with Scarlet. And there isn’t much intresting lore in GW2 we didn’t know already before launch. And the intresting ones aren’t gettin used. (prior LS2 , but LS2 feels more like a checklist, players want to know more about the Ascalonian Twin swords/ghosts? lets put that in one episode, check, Krytan politics? Check etc.)
White mantle/mursaat , Scepter of orr ,bloodstones , dwarfs , the three order is getting ignored, isolation of cantha, palawa joko , human gods … All we can expect is dragons in the next 6-8 years.

Maybe the thing they were talking about that they wanted to do was have over a hundred people on screen at one time fighting something. It wasn’t necessarily pertaining to story telling.

Probably we never know for sure what they meant. My two cent is they wanted to escape from the balance of thousands skills , but the classic “Can you jump?” question also could get on their nerves. But I don’t think the main reason is bigger fights, they already could do that with merging parties like they did it in Vizunah or on Alliance Battles.

Swimming and underwater combat, jumping puzzles, these were introduced with the game that couldn’t have been done in the old system. I just see no reason to think they were talking about story. Stories they could already tell, as you pointed out.

Yeah I find it funny that jumping was missing from the first game and now they built whole releases only on jumping. Still ,like I said with some modifications to the original system these still could be part of the game. SAB was instanced after all. Yet if the new system wasn’t created for living world why is the living world the highest priority right now?

The new system wasn’t created for the Living World. I’m pretty sure they came up with that when they saw people weren’t interested in DEs as a way to progress. They thought DEs would interest more people. They never counted on champ trains.

Even when they started addig new events I’m pretty sure they had a living world in mind .The first update was Halloween , that was the first time when they introduced an one time only event with the Mad King , then with the karkas. This was an early concept of living world ,yet they didn’t call it living story at that time. Champ trains didn’t really exist back then , if I remember correctly they started appearing when they introduced champ bags. And I Can’t really blame people for not doing DEs, they don’t have much replay value or reward. They are not even a challenge.

Orr was already a giant champ train before then.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

I think you’re missing the point though. The point is the personal story was never really supposed to be the backbone of the game. Events were. They’ve always said that was the main thrust of the game.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of events are far too uninteresting to carry the game, and then there’s the simple fact that you can’t even expect to come across events reliably without standing around and waiting for them to start. Of course people will latch on to something, anything else.

I agree. That’s why they changed it though. It’s also why they added hearts.

The technology was set up where the instances use the open world counterpart and just modify it. So whatever is in the real world, that’s what you’ll get in the instances in the PS.

It was probably not the best way to do it, but it would probably require a major rewrite of the game to work that way now.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

cranos.5913:

I feel lore-wise gw2 has always lacked. Other than Tybalt, I’ve yet to care for any character in the game, including my own. And on that point you’re right, I loved the GW1 missions back in the day and yes, you really did feel connected to your character a lot more.

Still, there’s no way I could go back to GW1 after playing this game. I simply love the combat, mainly because it’s fast and there’s no trinity. Now if they would only add difficult dungeon/fractal content this game would be perfect.

So yeah, both have their pro’s and cons, but personally I feel GW2 has more replay value.

I think you’re confusing lore and story. Story wise is probably what you’re talking about. Tybalt is part of the story, rather than the lore.

The lore is the background, the build up, the history. The games share history and both have great stories. In fact, much of the lore of Guild Wars 2 is the lore of Guild Wars 1.

It’s the stories that are the issue. I only clarify, because it’s important that people realize the difference so they get their message across to Anet.

Mind you it seems a lot of people do like Tiami. And I sort of like the new group, particularly Marjorie.

The most hilarious thing is when I think about GW2 is this: When they started working on it, they said they want to do things they can’t do in GW1. If living world was what they meant back then, GW1 (with some modifications) system with instanced areas would be much more fitting for it. In the very beginning of GW1 you saw a nation fall, cities getting destroyed , thousands getting slained. And this was the first few hours.
I don’t expect anything this big from living story since it can’t be done in open world, but in instanced you could fight off the titans , making them disappear from every region. You could kill off the plague , you could fight for the luxons/kurzicks to claim territory.

Also I have problems not only with the stories, but the lore. I feel like lore is getting ignored, especially with Scarlet. And there isn’t much intresting lore in GW2 we didn’t know already before launch. And the intresting ones aren’t gettin used. (prior LS2 , but LS2 feels more like a checklist, players want to know more about the Ascalonian Twin swords/ghosts? lets put that in one episode, check, Krytan politics? Check etc.)
White mantle/mursaat , Scepter of orr ,bloodstones , dwarfs , the three order is getting ignored, isolation of cantha, palawa joko , human gods … All we can expect is dragons in the next 6-8 years.

Maybe the thing they were talking about that they wanted to do was have over a hundred people on screen at one time fighting something. It wasn’t necessarily pertaining to story telling.

Probably we never know for sure what they meant. My two cent is they wanted to escape from the balance of thousands skills , but the classic “Can you jump?” question also could get on their nerves. But I don’t think the main reason is bigger fights, they already could do that with merging parties like they did it in Vizunah or on Alliance Battles.

Swimming and underwater combat, jumping puzzles, these were introduced with the game that couldn’t have been done in the old system. I just see no reason to think they were talking about story. Stories they could already tell, as you pointed out.

Yeah I find it funny that jumping was missing from the first game and now they built whole releases only on jumping. Still ,like I said with some modifications to the original system these still could be part of the game. SAB was instanced after all. Yet if the new system wasn’t created for living world why is the living world the highest priority right now?

The new system wasn’t created for the Living World. I’m pretty sure they came up with that when they saw people weren’t interested in DEs as a way to progress. They thought DEs would interest more people. They never counted on champ trains.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

cranos.5913:

I feel lore-wise gw2 has always lacked. Other than Tybalt, I’ve yet to care for any character in the game, including my own. And on that point you’re right, I loved the GW1 missions back in the day and yes, you really did feel connected to your character a lot more.

Still, there’s no way I could go back to GW1 after playing this game. I simply love the combat, mainly because it’s fast and there’s no trinity. Now if they would only add difficult dungeon/fractal content this game would be perfect.

So yeah, both have their pro’s and cons, but personally I feel GW2 has more replay value.

I think you’re confusing lore and story. Story wise is probably what you’re talking about. Tybalt is part of the story, rather than the lore.

The lore is the background, the build up, the history. The games share history and both have great stories. In fact, much of the lore of Guild Wars 2 is the lore of Guild Wars 1.

It’s the stories that are the issue. I only clarify, because it’s important that people realize the difference so they get their message across to Anet.

Mind you it seems a lot of people do like Tiami. And I sort of like the new group, particularly Marjorie.

The most hilarious thing is when I think about GW2 is this: When they started working on it, they said they want to do things they can’t do in GW1. If living world was what they meant back then, GW1 (with some modifications) system with instanced areas would be much more fitting for it. In the very beginning of GW1 you saw a nation fall, cities getting destroyed , thousands getting slained. And this was the first few hours.
I don’t expect anything this big from living story since it can’t be done in open world, but in instanced you could fight off the titans , making them disappear from every region. You could kill off the plague , you could fight for the luxons/kurzicks to claim territory.

Also I have problems not only with the stories, but the lore. I feel like lore is getting ignored, especially with Scarlet. And there isn’t much intresting lore in GW2 we didn’t know already before launch. And the intresting ones aren’t gettin used. (prior LS2 , but LS2 feels more like a checklist, players want to know more about the Ascalonian Twin swords/ghosts? lets put that in one episode, check, Krytan politics? Check etc.)
White mantle/mursaat , Scepter of orr ,bloodstones , dwarfs , the three order is getting ignored, isolation of cantha, palawa joko , human gods … All we can expect is dragons in the next 6-8 years.

Maybe the thing they were talking about that they wanted to do was have over a hundred people on screen at one time fighting something. It wasn’t necessarily pertaining to story telling.

Probably we never know for sure what they meant. My two cent is they wanted to escape from the balance of thousands skills , but the classic “Can you jump?” question also could get on their nerves. But I don’t think the main reason is bigger fights, they already could do that with merging parties like they did it in Vizunah or on Alliance Battles.

Swimming and underwater combat, jumping puzzles, these were introduced with the game that couldn’t have been done in the old system. I just see no reason to think they were talking about story. Stories they could already tell, as you pointed out.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

cranos.5913:

I feel lore-wise gw2 has always lacked. Other than Tybalt, I’ve yet to care for any character in the game, including my own. And on that point you’re right, I loved the GW1 missions back in the day and yes, you really did feel connected to your character a lot more.

Still, there’s no way I could go back to GW1 after playing this game. I simply love the combat, mainly because it’s fast and there’s no trinity. Now if they would only add difficult dungeon/fractal content this game would be perfect.

So yeah, both have their pro’s and cons, but personally I feel GW2 has more replay value.

I think you’re confusing lore and story. Story wise is probably what you’re talking about. Tybalt is part of the story, rather than the lore.

The lore is the background, the build up, the history. The games share history and both have great stories. In fact, much of the lore of Guild Wars 2 is the lore of Guild Wars 1.

It’s the stories that are the issue. I only clarify, because it’s important that people realize the difference so they get their message across to Anet.

Mind you it seems a lot of people do like Tiami. And I sort of like the new group, particularly Marjorie.

The most hilarious thing is when I think about GW2 is this: When they started working on it, they said they want to do things they can’t do in GW1. If living world was what they meant back then, GW1 (with some modifications) system with instanced areas would be much more fitting for it. In the very beginning of GW1 you saw a nation fall, cities getting destroyed , thousands getting slained. And this was the first few hours.
I don’t expect anything this big from living story since it can’t be done in open world, but in instanced you could fight off the titans , making them disappear from every region. You could kill off the plague , you could fight for the luxons/kurzicks to claim territory.

Also I have problems not only with the stories, but the lore. I feel like lore is getting ignored, especially with Scarlet. And there isn’t much intresting lore in GW2 we didn’t know already before launch. And the intresting ones aren’t gettin used. (prior LS2 , but LS2 feels more like a checklist, players want to know more about the Ascalonian Twin swords/ghosts? lets put that in one episode, check, Krytan politics? Check etc.)
White mantle/mursaat , Scepter of orr ,bloodstones , dwarfs , the three order is getting ignored, isolation of cantha, palawa joko , human gods … All we can expect is dragons in the next 6-8 years.

Maybe the thing they were talking about that they wanted to do was have over a hundred people on screen at one time fighting something. It wasn’t necessarily pertaining to story telling.

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Penarddun.6827:

I was working on my new Thief today, and I just did the first group of personal story quests (the ones that open at level 10). After I finished, I felt very lost and then I realized why. When I had been leveling my other characters, the next personal story step was in the top right of my map, like a goal to aim toward. I could try it at a lower level and if I died, go and gain a level and then try again. This took up a lot of my gaming time because I used the personal story as a framework for my entire leveling experience. Until this change I had no idea how much of an influence the personal story was for me as a leveling mechanic.

I understand the reasons for putting the PS in segments, it does make sense from a writer’s perspective so the player can see the entire mini plot all at once, without breaks. I think that is a good thing. But the change in how it is presented, and the complete lack of a PS after one segment is completed, has caused me to log off right afterwards because I don’t really have a goal at that point and “just leveling” isn’t really a goal for me.

I’m not sure how much of an impact this is going to have on my experience with gw2 in the long run, and there are a lot of other leveling issues that I think need to be addressed first, but it was something that I didn’t expect to be an issue yet is.

I think you’re missing the point though. The point is the personal story was never really supposed to be the backbone of the game. Events were. They’ve always said that was the main thrust of the game.

By having the personal story there all the time,. what they did was give people the wrong message about the game. Because at some point personal story ends, and then there’s nothing.

They’re retraining people to play the game differently for a reason. I used to see people post all the time about how they felt that they weren’t high enough level for their personal story, and they felt they were doing something wrong by being underleveled. Having it there, as it was, affected those people, in addition to affecting people like me, who feel like it breaks immersion to have to stop doing important stuff to do not important stuff. Save the city…but help some farmers first, because you’re not good enough to save the city.

But again, the thing you’re talking about here is probably the very thing Anet is trying to prevent. That’s why the brought in the new content guide.

actually the personal story was designed to guide you into the areas you were most likely to be around certain levels, and direct people to content.
That has changed now apparently, but it actually was designed to work with your level and your progress to guide you.

I’m not sure I agree with this interpretation.

I actually agree with phys, but it was probably doing its job TOO well (too much hand holding) as people thought, PS is here so im supposed to be here as well.

I think the PS was added to offer variety to the leveling experience. So people wouldn’t all have the same exact history. I think it was designed to follow where you’d be, rather than to lead you. It’s a subtle different, but it’s a difference.

Nah, because every new story step was higher level in a very specific area, so naturally, people went to the story, not the other way around, roaming around the area and stumbling upon it.

Also, the non removable reminder in tracker was constant…..reminder of it. It clearly showed “higher level -> that way”. And thats what people did.

Right which distracted them from what was meant to be the meat of the game. Remember, we’re talking about why it was developed. At some point, you originally ran out of PS and nothing replaced it. Then you had no sense of direction at all.

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Penarddun.6827:

I was working on my new Thief today, and I just did the first group of personal story quests (the ones that open at level 10). After I finished, I felt very lost and then I realized why. When I had been leveling my other characters, the next personal story step was in the top right of my map, like a goal to aim toward. I could try it at a lower level and if I died, go and gain a level and then try again. This took up a lot of my gaming time because I used the personal story as a framework for my entire leveling experience. Until this change I had no idea how much of an influence the personal story was for me as a leveling mechanic.

I understand the reasons for putting the PS in segments, it does make sense from a writer’s perspective so the player can see the entire mini plot all at once, without breaks. I think that is a good thing. But the change in how it is presented, and the complete lack of a PS after one segment is completed, has caused me to log off right afterwards because I don’t really have a goal at that point and “just leveling” isn’t really a goal for me.

I’m not sure how much of an impact this is going to have on my experience with gw2 in the long run, and there are a lot of other leveling issues that I think need to be addressed first, but it was something that I didn’t expect to be an issue yet is.

I think you’re missing the point though. The point is the personal story was never really supposed to be the backbone of the game. Events were. They’ve always said that was the main thrust of the game.

By having the personal story there all the time,. what they did was give people the wrong message about the game. Because at some point personal story ends, and then there’s nothing.

They’re retraining people to play the game differently for a reason. I used to see people post all the time about how they felt that they weren’t high enough level for their personal story, and they felt they were doing something wrong by being underleveled. Having it there, as it was, affected those people, in addition to affecting people like me, who feel like it breaks immersion to have to stop doing important stuff to do not important stuff. Save the city…but help some farmers first, because you’re not good enough to save the city.

But again, the thing you’re talking about here is probably the very thing Anet is trying to prevent. That’s why the brought in the new content guide.

actually the personal story was designed to guide you into the areas you were most likely to be around certain levels, and direct people to content.
That has changed now apparently, but it actually was designed to work with your level and your progress to guide you.

I’m not sure I agree with this interpretation.

I actually agree with phys, but it was probably doing its job TOO well (too much hand holding) as people thought, PS is here so im supposed to be here as well.

I think the PS was added to offer variety to the leveling experience. So people wouldn’t all have the same exact history. I think it was designed to follow where you’d be, rather than to lead you. It’s a subtle different, but it’s a difference.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Penarddun.6827:

I was working on my new Thief today, and I just did the first group of personal story quests (the ones that open at level 10). After I finished, I felt very lost and then I realized why. When I had been leveling my other characters, the next personal story step was in the top right of my map, like a goal to aim toward. I could try it at a lower level and if I died, go and gain a level and then try again. This took up a lot of my gaming time because I used the personal story as a framework for my entire leveling experience. Until this change I had no idea how much of an influence the personal story was for me as a leveling mechanic.

I understand the reasons for putting the PS in segments, it does make sense from a writer’s perspective so the player can see the entire mini plot all at once, without breaks. I think that is a good thing. But the change in how it is presented, and the complete lack of a PS after one segment is completed, has caused me to log off right afterwards because I don’t really have a goal at that point and “just leveling” isn’t really a goal for me.

I’m not sure how much of an impact this is going to have on my experience with gw2 in the long run, and there are a lot of other leveling issues that I think need to be addressed first, but it was something that I didn’t expect to be an issue yet is.

I think you’re missing the point though. The point is the personal story was never really supposed to be the backbone of the game. Events were. They’ve always said that was the main thrust of the game.

By having the personal story there all the time,. what they did was give people the wrong message about the game. Because at some point personal story ends, and then there’s nothing.

They’re retraining people to play the game differently for a reason. I used to see people post all the time about how they felt that they weren’t high enough level for their personal story, and they felt they were doing something wrong by being underleveled. Having it there, as it was, affected those people, in addition to affecting people like me, who feel like it breaks immersion to have to stop doing important stuff to do not important stuff. Save the city…but help some farmers first, because you’re not good enough to save the city.

But again, the thing you’re talking about here is probably the very thing Anet is trying to prevent. That’s why the brought in the new content guide.

actually the personal story was designed to guide you into the areas you were most likely to be around certain levels, and direct people to content.
That has changed now apparently, but it actually was designed to work with your level and your progress to guide you.

I’m not sure I agree with this interpretation.

Penarddun.6827:

I was working on my new Thief today, and I just did the first group of personal story quests (the ones that open at level 10). After I finished, I felt very lost and then I realized why. When I had been leveling my other characters, the next personal story step was in the top right of my map, like a goal to aim toward. I could try it at a lower level and if I died, go and gain a level and then try again. This took up a lot of my gaming time because I used the personal story as a framework for my entire leveling experience. Until this change I had no idea how much of an influence the personal story was for me as a leveling mechanic.

I understand the reasons for putting the PS in segments, it does make sense from a writer’s perspective so the player can see the entire mini plot all at once, without breaks. I think that is a good thing. But the change in how it is presented, and the complete lack of a PS after one segment is completed, has caused me to log off right afterwards because I don’t really have a goal at that point and “just leveling” isn’t really a goal for me.

I’m not sure how much of an impact this is going to have on my experience with gw2 in the long run, and there are a lot of other leveling issues that I think need to be addressed first, but it was something that I didn’t expect to be an issue yet is.

I think you’re missing the point though. The point is the personal story was never really supposed to be the backbone of the game. Events were. They’ve always said that was the main thrust of the game.

By having the personal story there all the time,. what they did was give people the wrong message about the game. Because at some point personal story ends, and then there’s nothing.

They’re retraining people to play the game differently for a reason. I used to see people post all the time about how they felt that they weren’t high enough level for their personal story, and they felt they were doing something wrong by being underleveled. Having it there, as it was, affected those people, in addition to affecting people like me, who feel like it breaks immersion to have to stop doing important stuff to do not important stuff. Save the city…but help some farmers first, because you’re not good enough to save the city.

But again, the thing you’re talking about here is probably the very thing Anet is trying to prevent. That’s why the brought in the new content guide.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

MikaHR.1978:

GW2 has one of least invasive cash shop in industry and no sub. It goes as far as lot of people complain theres “really nothing of interest in cash shop, just fluff”.

Gw2 is subtly invasive so subtle that most people overlook how invasive it actually is. Someone could write an article analysing the systems and how successful it has been for anet whilst all the while screwing players over as much as other f2p games.

The word subtle and invasive or actually quite opposite. That’s what’s called an oxymoron. If it’s subtle, it’s not invasive. That’s the difference between the words.

Invasive: “tending to spread very quickly and undesirably or harmfully.” I disagree that this spread or permeation can’t be subtle.

Well since the cash shop itself doesn’t really spread at all, offers very little by way of any in game advantage, and isn’t necessary to play content I’d say it’s categorically not invasive.

What you can say is that the design of the game is affected by the cash shop but it’s still not invasive. I never think about going to the cash shop when I’m playing. It’s nothing like games where the cash shop is actually invasive.

Yes, Anet tries to encourage people to spend money by putting skins in black lion chests. But since skins can also be bought for gold on the BLTP, it’s hardly like you have to spend money in the cash shop to get it.

The cash shop will probably affect impatient people who must have everything immediately, in which case they’ll spend real money to get gems to sell or keys or whatever.

I don’t really consider that invasive though.

morrolan.9608:

MikaHR.1978:

GW2 has one of least invasive cash shop in industry and no sub. It goes as far as lot of people complain theres “really nothing of interest in cash shop, just fluff”.

Gw2 is subtly invasive so subtle that most people overlook how invasive it actually is. Someone could write an article analysing the systems and how successful it has been for anet whilst all the while screwing players over as much as other f2p games.

The word subtle and invasive or actually quite opposite. That’s what’s called an oxymoron. If it’s subtle, it’s not invasive. That’s the difference between the words.

cranos.5913:

Vayne.8563:

cranos.5913:

I feel lore-wise gw2 has always lacked. Other than Tybalt, I’ve yet to care for any character in the game, including my own. And on that point you’re right, I loved the GW1 missions back in the day and yes, you really did feel connected to your character a lot more.

Still, there’s no way I could go back to GW1 after playing this game. I simply love the combat, mainly because it’s fast and there’s no trinity. Now if they would only add difficult dungeon/fractal content this game would be perfect.

So yeah, both have their pro’s and cons, but personally I feel GW2 has more replay value.

I think you’re confusing lore and story. Story wise is probably what you’re talking about. Tybalt is part of the story, rather than the lore.

The lore is the background, the build up, the history. The games share history and both have great stories. In fact, much of the lore of Guild Wars 2 is the lore of Guild Wars 1.

It’s the stories that are the issue. I only clarify, because it’s important that people realize the difference so they get their message across to Anet.

Mind you it seems a lot of people do like Tiami. And I sort of like the new group, particularly Marjorie.

I guess you’re right, although we see hardly anything of this great lore in the game I was indeed talking about story. As for characters, I’ve played far too many fractals to have any love for Rox, Broham and his infamous guardian shield push. The others aren’t that much more impressive, but it’s not like Mhenlo’s gang was worked out that much better.

As for the story itself… They may be redeeming themselves. LS season 2 still has potential. But personal story was simply terrible IMO. So stereotypical and annoying characters (yes Trahearne and Logan, I’m looking at you 2). It’s nothing compared to GW1 though, especially prophecies had a great story. For me, bringing back things like the white mantle would go a long way.

I’ve said this before. One of the reasons the story felt better in Guild Wars 1 had to do with the game being instanced and linear. It’s very easy to tell a linear story.

It’s much harder in a game where you can go anywhere.

I mean you go into an instance in Guild Wars 1 after doing a quest, and Menhlo can be waiting there for you and your friends. How would that work in an open world game. He can’t be there for every party. There’d be 50 of him waking around.

Story telling is always easier in a linear game, without an open world.

The very nature of Guild Wars 2 makes it harder to tell stories.

Designing games by committee never works. Most people aren’t as good at game design as they think they are.

cranos.5913:

I feel lore-wise gw2 has always lacked. Other than Tybalt, I’ve yet to care for any character in the game, including my own. And on that point you’re right, I loved the GW1 missions back in the day and yes, you really did feel connected to your character a lot more.

Still, there’s no way I could go back to GW1 after playing this game. I simply love the combat, mainly because it’s fast and there’s no trinity. Now if they would only add difficult dungeon/fractal content this game would be perfect.

So yeah, both have their pro’s and cons, but personally I feel GW2 has more replay value.

I think you’re confusing lore and story. Story wise is probably what you’re talking about. Tybalt is part of the story, rather than the lore.

The lore is the background, the build up, the history. The games share history and both have great stories. In fact, much of the lore of Guild Wars 2 is the lore of Guild Wars 1.

It’s the stories that are the issue. I only clarify, because it’s important that people realize the difference so they get their message across to Anet.

Mind you it seems a lot of people do like Tiami. And I sort of like the new group, particularly Marjorie.

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

I’m thinking it would be nigh on impossible to do The Deep or Urgoz’s Warren with three heroes. Henchmen couldn’t enter elite areas, and using 7 heroes wasn’t allowed until much much later in the game’s life cycle.

Yeah, you could 2 man Urgoz post full parties of heros patch, but The Deep, if i remember correctly you need at least 4 players, since you have to do each pad separately or deal with a whole world of aspect pain.

My wife and I duoed DOA with heroes. I can’t really imagine anyone soloing it with just 3 heroes though.

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

@Munkiman – I was on hiatus during the Living Story 1 content, so I had no idea what that was when I first came back to the game. Ran into one thinking it was just some event I had never seen before, promptly got my kitten handed to me. Multiple times.

I eventually pieced together that it was part of the whole Scarlet storyline, but yeah, that’s about all the details I have. Nothing in-game right now gives you any clue what they’re about.

That should definitely be rectified. Essentially, Scarlet convinced the Nightmare Court and the Krait to work together, and they built a giant tower, with a giant spore on top. It sent out the spores all across the neighboring zones, creating the toxic spore events.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

munkiman.3068:

Best i can do is offer feedback for the small bits i do play, which is fine, since most of the content is geared more for the casual anyway.

Well, it’s rather puzzling.

I figure, who is more casual than me?

I don’t go for raid-ly stuff (in any game). Closest thing would be the Task/Strike Forces in City of Heroes/City of Villains, or the occasional Special Task Force over in STO. I don’t like the GW2 dungeons (although I liked the EotN dungeons, as I could do them by myself with heroes/henchies), so I don’t do those, and I don’t do fractals or wvw or spvp, although I did take a second short-lived stab at spvp a little while ago. My guild is too small for any of the guild stuff, and I’m not about to join some large guild just for the guild stuff (shouldn’t have to, as I said back when anet first introduced it). I used to hit all three dragons, but not anymore. Megasuffer makes them insufferably laggy, and to heck with new Teq.

Mostly what I do is make new characters and either do map completions or run them through whatever story missions are available.

So I ask you: who is more casual than me?

If I’m casual, and anet is targeting casual players, they have missed the mark entirely with just about every single thing they’ve done post launch.

• this casual player did not want ascended gear.
• this casual player did not want the guild missions (as delivered).
• this casual player did not want the living story/temp content.
• this casual player did not want megaserver.
• this casual player did not want the trait system revamp.
• this casual player did not want living story S2 with the aspect stuff that should have remained in Labyrinthine Cliffs, or the hokey pokey boss fights.
• this casual player did not want NPE.

On the other hand, everything I do want – expansions (including Cantha and Elona and hey, why not some place on Tyria we’ve not yet seen), more (full-fledged) zones, more playable races, more professions, more (non-living) story missions (aka quests) – has been spectacularly absent. Two years in, and these things still don’t appear to be anywhere on anet’s table.

So, who is GW2 geared toward?

Because it sure ain’t me.

Well isn’t that interesting. See I’m a casual player too, and it’s most definitely geared for me.

Admittedly I don’t like how the trait system was redesigned, I don’t love ascended gear (but you don’t need it to do anything casual anyway) and I think the temporary content was a mistake, but for the rest of it…

I like the collections.
I like the new crafting improvements.
I like the new zone…Dry Top is my favorite zone in the game.
I adore the mega server.
I enjoy Guild Missions (particularly puzzles and rushes)
I love the new living story stuff (which isn’t temporary anymore)
I’m really enjoying the NPE.

Seems not all casual players are going to feel the same about stuff.

I think we have a different concept of ‘casual’. Have you looked at your forum profile lately?

I’m casual in how I play. I’m not hard core by any means. I like to do random stuff, whatever I feel like at the moment. I tend to make lots of characters and just run around leveling them in the open world.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Still no answer? But I enjoyed our discussion

There’s not much to say. I didn’t end up killing Liadri, because I didn’t really like the setup. I don’t play MMOs to solo mostly anyway, and sitting there, waiting my turn to get to Liadri was not all that interesting to me. I’d love to have the minipet. I’m sure I could have beaten her if I banged away at it, but the reward wasn’t worth me doing something annoying. Particularly because latency where I am is such that it would make it harder for me than someone who actually saw where they were.

Anet didn’t tell us much, so I don’t think they’re hiding stuff. If they didn’t have reason to change the early game, they wouldn’t have changed it. I mean it’s a lot of work. Obviously they thought it was necessary. I feel I have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I don’t really expect them to consult me on major decisions….or at all for that matter.

I believe the test was done in the west, because I help people in starter zones quite frequently and I see the questions people ask and how confused they are. This isn’t some random thing that happens to a couple of people. People really don’t have a clue what’s going on, and I’ve seen several people ready to give up because of it. I don’t see why anyone would think otherwise.

On liadri, I’m not sure about NA servers, but I often could find empty arenas on EU to complete it.

On other changes: anet had to make changes to launch their game in china. The games are quite different there , and they play their games quite differently. I even read about a dev’s opinion when people discussed about the new NPE ( If you want I can send you the link in PM ,but I don’t want to make trouble for that dev by posting it here) . We know anet has been busy with the chinese launch at that time, which means they had to work on something. Probably not on localization, since that’s not an average devs job ,but on something that affects the game. We know most of the september feature pack was already available on the east ( Global guilds, crafting backs, NPE , not sure about the rest) which means those were ready before april. When I say I think the NPE changes were made to make the game eligible for the chinese launch I’m just connecting dots .

But these changes don’t really affect me, so I try to not care. But what I really care about is the company policy and the living story not being up to bar. Like I said, just by numbers, anet could produce maps, dungeons etc much faster rate prior to launch . Since Living story doesn’t provide that amount of content what will? And about the company policy… why? The only reason I could imagine for this kind of policy is because there is nothing in the background to talk about , to keep people dreaming, hoping they will stay .

Company policy could be simple. You know they announce something and if they change it, the forum runs around like a chicken with its head cut off. Easier not to say anything. Particularly with regards to something like an expansion, you announce it when it makes sense to do so from a business point of view. Usually to combat what some other game is doing.

Rift went into a promo black out when SWToR was released. They realized they couldn’t advertise as much as EA so they didn’t waste money trying. They waited 3 months until people were annoyed with SWToR and then got a bunch of people to come back. It’s about timing a lot of the time.

No company can put out enough content to keep people busy anyway, particularly in a theme park MMO. However, it’s not just the living story. Drytop was pretty cool and I spent an awful lot of time there. So did many in my guild.

It’s like anything else. If you like the content you can get hours out of it. The Marionette fight was like that. If you liked it, you could do it a lot. If you didn’t like it, you had no content.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I think they should require an even time frame into all of the game modes. It would promote diverse play which cuts down on burnout, farming, and elitism. This way no one group of players feels left out (pve, wvw, pvp).

This I disagree with. Because some games modes are more limited/repetitive than others..and where do you draw the line.

Some people only like to run dungeons. It’s all they like. Should be make people spend 100 hours just doing dungeons?

From polls we see about 30% of players play WvW. But considering that most WvW people probably look at forums from time to time, that’s probably higher than the actual percentage. So why make 70% of the players do something they don’t enjoy. Bad enough for the 30%, but WvW is a much more limited set of activities. It doesn’t bear out countless hours. PvE is more varied.

In truth, there’s no good way to do this that would be fair to everyone.

Palador.2170:

Vayne.8563:

Palador.2170:

Vayne.8563:

Focusing on those details make people more unsatisfied than they need to be.

You may be right there. I think I can agree to disagree on the details, and get back to running around in PvP and making my team lose because I suck.

(Sorry to all I team with, but I want that CoF armor and I can’t buy dungeon tokens with laurels, so you’re stuck with me.)

I hate to ask but why not just run CoF?

I don’t like doing team stuff.

I don’t much care for PvP either, but the matches are short and I can take it in small bites at least. And even if I suck in PvP, if anyone’s killing me then they’re not killing someone else on my team, right?

Ah okay. I don’t like the team stuff with pugs, but it’s fun to run dungeons with casual friends, while laughing and joking on mumble. Different strokes I guess.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

The reason I think having a legendary should including the major game modes is because I see it as a reward for mastering all aspects of the game. Leaving out the buying and selling aspect (which I never agreed with), I think that the idea of crafting it, and showing that you’ve got the gift of battle and the gift of magic…it’s all the aspects of being a hero.

There are rewards for playing different aspects of the game already. A legendary should transcend those.

Thanks.

See, I think this looks great on paper, but I’m concerned about how it looks in practice. As we have seen with the current system, you don’t need anything close to mastery in all aspects of the game. You just need (if you do the crafting process yourself) to participate in a few distinct aspects of the game; namely, WvW, Open World, and Dungeons.

What say you to that?

I wouldn’t have minded higher requiresments in some areas, and less farming in other areas, but it’s very hard to get the balance right for everyone.

But let’s say they raise the requirement to level 100 in WvW and 6000 badges of honor. At that point it just becomes more grinding anyway.

When the legendaries were first designed, the WvW part was harder. It was harder to get badges of honor and getting 500 of them meant playing (which is how I did it). It wasn’t until achievement point chests started handing them out that the value of that changed. And then EotM on top of that makes the requirement negligible, but that’s not how it was first designed…and I did it the hard way.

The reason I think having a legendary should including the major game modes is because I see it as a reward for mastering all aspects of the game. Leaving out the buying and selling aspect (which I never agreed with), I think that the idea of crafting it, and showing that you’ve got the gift of battle and the gift of magic…it’s all the aspects of being a hero.

There are rewards for playing different aspects of the game already. A legendary should transcend those.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

~

snip

~

Agreed, Challenge/reward factor could be improved in this game, but liadri is a great example for a challenge that frustates you for some time , but killing her after numerous trying , that feeling makes it worth it.
And actually I disagree with your second pharagraph’s first sentence. The last two year have been lacking, no matter how I look it. Anet proved they can do faster, and I’m not talking about the first game’s expansion frequency. I’m talking about the 5 year they made GW2. I’m just gonna say a number, but I could say a lot: Explorable areas, GW2 launched with 26 in PvE, that means during the 5 year development they created 5 every year on average. This number is also sad on a lot of things (Professions, Races, events, skills you name it.)

And on those tests… I don’t believe anet is lying…but I also don’t believe they told us everything. They said they made tests , did they say where? Probably not on the west, if they did recruit 10k tester in the west that would leave some kind of mark. I do believe those tests took place on the east. There were tests before launch with a loads of people, yet anet didn’t make these changes back then. And its slightly suspicius that china launched with these changes.

Still no answer? But I enjoyed our discussion

There’s not much to say. I didn’t end up killing Liadri, because I didn’t really like the setup. I don’t play MMOs to solo mostly anyway, and sitting there, waiting my turn to get to Liadri was not all that interesting to me. I’d love to have the minipet. I’m sure I could have beaten her if I banged away at it, but the reward wasn’t worth me doing something annoying. Particularly because latency where I am is such that it would make it harder for me than someone who actually saw where they were.

Anet didn’t tell us much, so I don’t think they’re hiding stuff. If they didn’t have reason to change the early game, they wouldn’t have changed it. I mean it’s a lot of work. Obviously they thought it was necessary. I feel I have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I don’t really expect them to consult me on major decisions….or at all for that matter.

I believe the test was done in the west, because I help people in starter zones quite frequently and I see the questions people ask and how confused they are. This isn’t some random thing that happens to a couple of people. People really don’t have a clue what’s going on, and I’ve seen several people ready to give up because of it. I don’t see why anyone would think otherwise.

If anything makes things confusing for people I don’t think it’s having trouble throwing a bucket with water on plants or the 5 skills you can unlock for the weapon you use.

It’s more likely the lack of traditional quests that normally also guide you through the world. This already proved to be a problem in alpha and thats why hearths came in..

Maybe that also did not do the trick. I am all in favor for also including traditional quest (more because I find them amusing and they give me a better bound with the world and the NPC’s) and that might help new players much more.

I agree with you about the bucket of water, but taking individual changes out of a whole packet of changes is just pointless. Yes,s we could always edit change A, B or C, but over all the NPE, in my opinion was well done.

Anet was never going to get it so everyone agreed with it. They made decisions, they made changes, feeding the cows and watering the plants is something I’ve done for maybe a some total of 5 minutes of my Guild Wars 2 experience, in thousands of hours.

Was it a bad change? Yeah probably. But over all, it’s so insignificant..most of these changes are, that it won’t affect my enjoyment of the game. People are focusing on details. Overall, for me, the experience of leveling has improved, though it still needs some adjustments.

No, we should talk about individual changes. Because there are likely also things you agree with so you don’t say “I like it or I don’t like it”. It’s much better to say what you like and dislike.

And about that hearth. For some reason if I think about GW2 hearths thats the hearth I always think about.

You missed my point.

Adjusting something like whether it should unlock at level X or level Y is not likely to get a majority agreement anyway, but even if it did, it’s still completely irrelevant if Anet has tests that show that those ways don’t work.

But talk about it if you like.

Palador.2170:

Vayne.8563:

Focusing on those details make people more unsatisfied than they need to be.

You may be right there. I think I can agree to disagree on the details, and get back to running around in PvP and making my team lose because I suck.

(Sorry to all I team with, but I want that CoF armor and I can’t buy dungeon tokens with laurels, so you’re stuck with me.)

I hate to ask but why not just run CoF?

Arietta The Broken.1875:

Comparing GW1 to GW2 is fun.

I mean, look at it like this. You could do FoW/DoA/UW in NM and HM with heroes and henchies. Okay its difficult. But it is 100% possible.

You can also do them with a PUG group. It is 100% possible to complete all the end game areas.

You can also have a guild/good group and complete them properly. For example, speed clear (HM speed runs) or Physway or whatever way you like.

The difference between GW1 and GW2 is that in GW1 people had a roll. You had healers and tanks and dps. This allowed instances or dungeons to be more diverse. They could be more challenging and they could be interesting.

Boss fights now is just spank. No tank and spank. Just spank. Oh you have to attack it from over here? great. Its still all attacking from 1 spot.

If we actually had tanks / emnity healers and dps there could actually be some variety. However right now, they have limited themselves to how the game can expand.

I don’t think you could do those elite instances in Guild Wars 1 solo with heroes. For one thing, heroes didn’t even exist for the first two years the game was out. When they did come out, you could only take 3 with you.

I’m thinking it would be nigh on impossible to do The Deep or Urgoz’s Warren with three heroes. Henchmen couldn’t enter elite areas, and using 7 heroes wasn’t allowed until much much later in the game’s life cycle.

Palador.2170:

Vayne.8563:

Okay, so the end game begins at level 10, or an hour into the game.

First of all, thank you. If I can get even you to agree with it, then I’m pretty sure that means I’ve won at least my original point. We may not agree on when the end game starts, but we do agree it’s not at level 1.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not teaching people the wrong idea about the game, because it’s past so quickly. It’s doing what should have been done in the first place.

And you know, if we started with this, no one would have said a word. It would have been fine. There’d have been no complaints.

Just like everyone says level gating is bad, but skills and weapon swap were already level gated and no one complained.

Of course there were complaints, you know that. There’s always someone complaining. The question is, how many of those complaints had merit?

Look at Elementalists, for example. They used to start with fire and water elements unlocked. In other words, they had weapon swapping (ele style) at level 1. Looked at like that, it raises the question of why everyone else had to wait until level 7. Part of the reason for the outcry now is because ANet’s answer to that question was to push it back further for ALL classes, including Elementalist, the opposite direction from what most players would have considered an ease of play improvement.

Some level gating is good, I’ll grant you. But it’s something to be used sparingly. It makes gaining levels the goal, when that’s really something that should fade into the background of the rest of the game.

See but then we get into all sorts of arguments. Some guy wants it to unlock at 7, someone at 5, someone else might think it would be better at 9 and it doesn’t really matter, because it has to be done to help the maximum amount of new people.

Clearly Anet will soon have more regular free weekends, or a refer a friend thing and they want people to stay with the game. They tested this and this is what works.

Since more people in the game is better for me, the fiddling details about what level something unlocks is not all that important. The changes were made to get more people staying with the game, based on testing.

I can argue anything would be better changed, but we’re still arguing about minor details in a very big patch.

Focusing on those details make people more unsatisfied than they need to be.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

~

snip

Some things I’ve completed that were hard and felt they were well worth it. Other things that are hard I consider to be not worth it, but frustrating, if I feel the challenge isn’t fair somehow. Or if there’s a lot of wasted time to get to try it. That annoys me. I don’t like to play through an entire living story to try to get one achievement, miss it and have to play through it again. That isn’t fun for me.

But Anet isn’t just making things the way they are to save labor. That’s a misnomer. It would have been far less work for Anet to create a tutorial then do the NPE. They did it because it tested best. Tested is the key word here. Not your opinion. Not my opinion. They ran tests and had a result and based what they did on that result. Like it or not, that’s how it went down…unless Anet is lying.

Agreed, Challenge/reward factor could be improved in this game, but liadri is a great example for a challenge that frustates you for some time , but killing her after numerous trying , that feeling makes it worth it.
And actually I disagree with your second pharagraph’s first sentence. The last two year have been lacking, no matter how I look it. Anet proved they can do faster, and I’m not talking about the first game’s expansion frequency. I’m talking about the 5 year they made GW2. I’m just gonna say a number, but I could say a lot: Explorable areas, GW2 launched with 26 in PvE, that means during the 5 year development they created 5 every year on average. This number is also sad on a lot of things (Professions, Races, events, skills you name it.)

And on those tests… I don’t believe anet is lying…but I also don’t believe they told us everything. They said they made tests , did they say where? Probably not on the west, if they did recruit 10k tester in the west that would leave some kind of mark. I do believe those tests took place on the east. There were tests before launch with a loads of people, yet anet didn’t make these changes back then. And its slightly suspicius that china launched with these changes.

Still no answer? But I enjoyed our discussion

There’s not much to say. I didn’t end up killing Liadri, because I didn’t really like the setup. I don’t play MMOs to solo mostly anyway, and sitting there, waiting my turn to get to Liadri was not all that interesting to me. I’d love to have the minipet. I’m sure I could have beaten her if I banged away at it, but the reward wasn’t worth me doing something annoying. Particularly because latency where I am is such that it would make it harder for me than someone who actually saw where they were.

Anet didn’t tell us much, so I don’t think they’re hiding stuff. If they didn’t have reason to change the early game, they wouldn’t have changed it. I mean it’s a lot of work. Obviously they thought it was necessary. I feel I have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I don’t really expect them to consult me on major decisions….or at all for that matter.

I believe the test was done in the west, because I help people in starter zones quite frequently and I see the questions people ask and how confused they are. This isn’t some random thing that happens to a couple of people. People really don’t have a clue what’s going on, and I’ve seen several people ready to give up because of it. I don’t see why anyone would think otherwise.

If anything makes things confusing for people I don’t think it’s having trouble throwing a bucket with water on plants or the 5 skills you can unlock for the weapon you use.

It’s more likely the lack of traditional quests that normally also guide you through the world. This already proved to be a problem in alpha and thats why hearths came in..

Maybe that also did not do the trick. I am all in favor for also including traditional quest (more because I find them amusing and they give me a better bound with the world and the NPC’s) and that might help new players much more.

I agree with you about the bucket of water, but taking individual changes out of a whole packet of changes is just pointless. Yes,s we could always edit change A, B or C, but over all the NPE, in my opinion was well done.

Anet was never going to get it so everyone agreed with it. They made decisions, they made changes, feeding the cows and watering the plants is something I’ve done for maybe a some total of 5 minutes of my Guild Wars 2 experience, in thousands of hours.

Was it a bad change? Yeah probably. But over all, it’s so insignificant..most of these changes are, that it won’t affect my enjoyment of the game. People are focusing on details. Overall, for me, the experience of leveling has improved, though it still needs some adjustments.

Scipio.3204:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

snip

With the age of the average gamer on the rise, and many people only being able to devote a few hours a week to the game, it’s hard to believe most people want the kinds of ultra hard content other people want to keep them challenged.

I bet if they put in stuff that challenged the hard core guys, a lot of people wouldn’t be able to do it. It wouldn’t be challenging for them anymore, it would become frustrating.

That’s where the problem really starts. The more frustrating stuff, the more people feel they can’t handle the game, the more likely they are to walk.

I’m sure anet knows what would be best for GW2, but anet also knows what is best for anet. The launch of living story wasn’t based on metrics. The fact is, like you said yourselfs, it’s easier to cater to casuals than to anyone else, and for that the concept of living story is perfect. The last two year was casual priority, and I don’t expect much in the future either, this would explain the company policy too.

And on challenge: it’s optional. Have you ever completed something that was hard and frustrated you for a long time? It’s well worth it.

Some things I’ve completed that were hard and felt they were well worth it. Other things that are hard I consider to be not worth it, but frustrating, if I feel the challenge isn’t fair somehow. Or if there’s a lot of wasted time to get to try it. That annoys me. I don’t like to play through an entire living story to try to get one achievement, miss it and have to play through it again. That isn’t fun for me.

But Anet isn’t just making things the way they are to save labor. That’s a misnomer. It would have been far less work for Anet to create a tutorial then do the NPE. They did it because it tested best. Tested is the key word here. Not your opinion. Not my opinion. They ran tests and had a result and based what they did on that result. Like it or not, that’s how it went down…unless Anet is lying.

Agreed, Challenge/reward factor could be improved in this game, but liadri is a great example for a challenge that frustates you for some time , but killing her after numerous trying , that feeling makes it worth it.
And actually I disagree with your second pharagraph’s first sentence. The last two year have been lacking, no matter how I look it. Anet proved they can do faster, and I’m not talking about the first game’s expansion frequency. I’m talking about the 5 year they made GW2. I’m just gonna say a number, but I could say a lot: Explorable areas, GW2 launched with 26 in PvE, that means during the 5 year development they created 5 every year on average. This number is also sad on a lot of things (Professions, Races, events, skills you name it.)

And on those tests… I don’t believe anet is lying…but I also don’t believe they told us everything. They said they made tests , did they say where? Probably not on the west, if they did recruit 10k tester in the west that would leave some kind of mark. I do believe those tests took place on the east. There were tests before launch with a loads of people, yet anet didn’t make these changes back then. And its slightly suspicius that china launched with these changes.

Still no answer? But I enjoyed our discussion

There’s not much to say. I didn’t end up killing Liadri, because I didn’t really like the setup. I don’t play MMOs to solo mostly anyway, and sitting there, waiting my turn to get to Liadri was not all that interesting to me. I’d love to have the minipet. I’m sure I could have beaten her if I banged away at it, but the reward wasn’t worth me doing something annoying. Particularly because latency where I am is such that it would make it harder for me than someone who actually saw where they were.

Anet didn’t tell us much, so I don’t think they’re hiding stuff. If they didn’t have reason to change the early game, they wouldn’t have changed it. I mean it’s a lot of work. Obviously they thought it was necessary. I feel I have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I don’t really expect them to consult me on major decisions….or at all for that matter.

I believe the test was done in the west, because I help people in starter zones quite frequently and I see the questions people ask and how confused they are. This isn’t some random thing that happens to a couple of people. People really don’t have a clue what’s going on, and I’ve seen several people ready to give up because of it. I don’t see why anyone would think otherwise.

Palador.2170:

Vayne.8563:

See, I’m not sure what the huge rush is here. Pets were removed from the starting area, pre level 10. Skill points unlock I think at 13 now.

It takes an hour to get to level 10 now. An hour. Is this really what we’re complaining about? That in the first hour of play on a new character, you can’t tame animals that will take you ten minutes to go back and tame later? Because by level 10 you need a selection of 87 pets?

Every skill point you can’t acquire, you can get immediately at level 13, if you really want to, which is fine, because it’s around the time you really need to start spending skill points.

You want to have them up front? Build up a stash? What’s the difference if you have them at level 8 where you can’t use them, or you take ten minutes to get them at level 13?

Is it more convenient. Yeah, a bit. Good thing waypoints at that level are cheap as dirt.

For a first time player it won’t matter. For an experienced player it shouldn’t be that much of an inconvenience.

My point is that the game you have at low levels is NOTHING like the game you have when you’re at “endgame”. So, no, endgame does NOT start at level 1. Endgame now starts at level 30 or so, at best. The NPE changes (and I count the trait changes as part of that) actually go against ANet’s idea of having the whole game be endgame.

Can I deal with it? Yes. Do I want to? Not really. Do I think it’s teaching new players the wrong idea about this game? Very much so, yes. Your answer to part of this is to rush to level 10. Just stop and think about what you’re saying there. This is what the NPE is teaching people, to rush for levels to make the game more fun. That’s horrible.

Okay, so the end game begins at level 10, or an hour into the game. Some group gets a slight disadvantage, another group is helped by it.

It’s not teaching people the wrong idea about the game, because it’s past so quickly. It’s doing what should have been done in the first place.

And you know, if we started with this, no one would have said a word. It would have been fine. There’d have been no complaints.

Just like everyone says level gating is bad, but skills and weapon swap were already level gated and no one complained.

Allelya.6830:

Vayne.8563:

Allelya.6830:

“Points of Interest (level 7)
Gathering Nodes (Level 9) – Nodes may have been removed in areas before this level. No there is no potato famine there is plenty of potato in Metrica Province.
Vista (level 10)”

These help you level. They shouldn’t have been removed at all. This is 2014, most players coming to Guild Wars 2 already have a strong grip on the basics of an MMO (leveling, gathering, professions, etc).

We need more guilds like mine offering help to new players in exploration and other things that GW2 offers that you don’t find in other MMOs.

Talk about a storm in a tea cup. We’re talking about the first ten levels, which you now pass in about an hour. I think people need a bit more perspective.

Even if it’s two hours, in the life of your character, is should represent pretty much nothing.

Are we really complaining that we can’t get some potatos at low levels now?

Post your opinion that a game mechanic shouldn’t have been removed (regardless of WHAT LEVEL) and suddenly everyone wants to attack you over it. It’s my opinion. I’m entitled to it. I don’t give a rat’s kitten if you don’t agree with it.

Sure you can post an opinion. I’m happy to listen to your opinion. But saying it makes little difference is hardly an attack. It’s pointing out that though this is obviously a major factor for you, I don’t think it affects the game much and I don’t think it will affect most people’s game much.

I’m not really sure why someone would express an opinion on a forum, and then not expect people to talk about their opinion.

Palador.2170:

Galen Grey.4709:

Palador.2170:

Galen Grey.4709:

well strictly speaking Arenanet’s message was never there i no endgame rather, end game starts at level 1.

I think the NPE safely puts that line to rest.

I dont really like the new changes at least on paper, have yet to try them but I still dont see how NPE means endgame doesnt start at level 1!

I mean what is it you will be doing now between level 1 – 15 that you will not be doing at level 80? its still dynamic events, exploring etc.. NPE didnt change anything … well correction, it did simplify some events no more feeding cows… but not to a degree that it changed gameplay. it just slowed down skill acquisition thats not changing how a game plays.

Really? That’s really how you see it?

So, you don’t see builds as part of endgame, then? Waiting until level 11 to start on that wasn’t so bad, but now you can’t even LOOK at the traits screen until you’re level 30. Are you telling me that you don’t see traits as an important part of the endgame?

There’s this class I like. Rangers. I have a few of them. You know what I spend a lot of my time on them doing? Keeping an eye out for any pets I may come across that I’ve not gotten with them yet. Guess what they removed from the low level areas. Yep, new pets. I guess Rangers having the right pets isn’t part of their endgame?

New players can’t even face skill challenges and start building up (very useful) skill points until.. level 12, right? I kind of thought end game called for skills, and maybe even some of the things you need skill points to buy or unlock.

You know what you have at level 1? An auto attack, and a heal. TWO skills. Do you know what you don’t have? The ability to improve yourself in any way, save by clearing the instance. You can’t gain more skills, or better loot, or anything until you level. And they reinforced that by pushing everything else further away from level 1. This is the very opposite of “Endgame starts at level 1”. This is “Gaining levels is the most important thing you can do”. All the new unlocks and rewards on level-up just reinforce that.

I kind of feel bad for the new players that will rush up in levels, thinking that there’s some awesome unlock awaiting them at the end. I guess Grand Master traits and Living Story are going to have to make do.

See, I’m not sure what the huge rush is here. Pets were removed from the starting area, pre level 10. Skill points unlock I think at 13 now.

It takes an hour to get to level 10 now. An hour. Is this really what we’re complaining about? That in the first hour of play on a new character, you can’t tame animals that will take you ten minutes to go back and tame later? Because by level 10 you need a selection of 87 pets?

Every skill point you can’t acquire, you can get immediately at level 13, if you really want to, which is fine, because it’s around the time you really need to start spending skill points.

You want to have them up front? Build up a stash? What’s the difference if you have them at level 8 where you can’t use them, or you take ten minutes to get them at level 13?

Is it more convenient. Yeah, a bit. Good thing waypoints at that level are cheap as dirt.

For a first time player it won’t matter. For an experienced player it shouldn’t be that much of an inconvenience.

Tachenon.5270:

munkiman.3068:

Best i can do is offer feedback for the small bits i do play, which is fine, since most of the content is geared more for the casual anyway.

Well, it’s rather puzzling.

I figure, who is more casual than me?

I don’t go for raid-ly stuff (in any game). Closest thing would be the Task/Strike Forces in City of Heroes/City of Villains, or the occasional Special Task Force over in STO. I don’t like the GW2 dungeons (although I liked the EotN dungeons, as I could do them by myself with heroes/henchies), so I don’t do those, and I don’t do fractals or wvw or spvp, although I did take a second short-lived stab at spvp a little while ago. My guild is too small for any of the guild stuff, and I’m not about to join some large guild just for the guild stuff (shouldn’t have to, as I said back when anet first introduced it). I used to hit all three dragons, but not anymore. Megasuffer makes them insufferably laggy, and to heck with new Teq.

Mostly what I do is make new characters and either do map completions or run them through whatever story missions are available.

So I ask you: who is more casual than me?

If I’m casual, and anet is targeting casual players, they have missed the mark entirely with just about every single thing they’ve done post launch.

• this casual player did not want ascended gear.
• this casual player did not want the guild missions (as delivered).
• this casual player did not want the living story/temp content.
• this casual player did not want megaserver.
• this casual player did not want the trait system revamp.
• this casual player did not want living story S2 with the aspect stuff that should have remained in Labyrinthine Cliffs, or the hokey pokey boss fights.
• this casual player did not want NPE.

On the other hand, everything I do want – expansions (including Cantha and Elona and hey, why not some place on Tyria we’ve not yet seen), more (full-fledged) zones, more playable races, more professions, more (non-living) story missions (aka quests) – has been spectacularly absent. Two years in, and these things still don’t appear to be anywhere on anet’s table.

So, who is GW2 geared toward?

Because it sure ain’t me.

Well isn’t that interesting. See I’m a casual player too, and it’s most definitely geared for me.

Admittedly I don’t like how the trait system was redesigned, I don’t love ascended gear (but you don’t need it to do anything casual anyway) and I think the temporary content was a mistake, but for the rest of it…

I like the collections.
I like the new crafting improvements.
I like the new zone…Dry Top is my favorite zone in the game.
I adore the mega server.
I enjoy Guild Missions (particularly puzzles and rushes)
I love the new living story stuff (which isn’t temporary anymore)
I’m really enjoying the NPE.

Seems not all casual players are going to feel the same about stuff.

Allelya.6830:

“Points of Interest (level 7)
Gathering Nodes (Level 9) – Nodes may have been removed in areas before this level. No there is no potato famine there is plenty of potato in Metrica Province.
Vista (level 10)”

These help you level. They shouldn’t have been removed at all. This is 2014, most players coming to Guild Wars 2 already have a strong grip on the basics of an MMO (leveling, gathering, professions, etc).

We need more guilds like mine offering help to new players in exploration and other things that GW2 offers that you don’t find in other MMOs.

Talk about a storm in a tea cup. We’re talking about the first ten levels, which you now pass in about an hour. I think people need a bit more perspective.

Even if it’s two hours, in the life of your character, is should represent pretty much nothing.

Are we really complaining that we can’t get some potatos at low levels now?

Six of one, half a dozen of another. You usually make enough playing to gear up anyway. It’s a good amount of money to start with, but when will you need that amount of money.

Either way, it doesn’t make that much of a difference. Nice to have the money now, but not necessary. Nice to have the dye, but not necessary…and you’ll eventually buy it anyway most likely.

And there we have it. So many people asking for harder content, and then someone comes along and asks for harder content to be removed.

Hard content is not the end of the world.

tigirius.9014:

Sir Egil The Bull.7869:

Story Mode in all Dungeons should be solo-able by Level 80 chars. That’s some endgame content I like to see.

As someone coming up on my Zaitan personal story ending I’d have to agree. It’s crazy not to have a soloable content like a personal story, why do people have to gather into a 5 man just to complete something like this.

The other thing that bothered me was the early LS systems, somehow they thought that 5 mans for LS were what casual open world consumers wanted when what we really wanted was them to keep their promise that we’d never have to step into another dungeon ever again for anything if we didn’t want to.

I like their recent interview talking about how dungeons aren’t the focus of the future I’m anxious to see what’s coming in it’s place!

I agree with you. I think it was a questionable design decision to have the personal story end in a five man instance. It reminded me of how I felt when the one main quest line in Rift ended in a raid. Really kittened me off.

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

munkiman.3068:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Essentially he is saying that gw2 population is generally way at the bottom % of gamers in being able deal with challenge.
Therefore anet makes the content that their population can handle, which he implies is extremely low.

I personally believe that gw2 players arent any less capable than other players, they like the systems and enjoy using them well, and knowing their class, its just extremely rare that game actually requires them to use these skills.
After a little while people adapt, and they tend to enjoy overcoming, or matching different challenges.

Nah, any game that strives for large playerbase has vast majority that want easy stuff, and any company thats wise will provide vast majority of such content.

If you want ultra challenging game you cant expect large playerbase. Its just how it is.

The more people you strive to please, the more tend to leave after awhile and it doesn’t seem like those people would be the ones to buy stuff in the store either.

I don’t know why you think this. A lot of the people in my guild aren’t really into challenging content, but I’m sure many if not most spend money in the cash shop. A lot of working people in my guild who buy stuff because Guild Wars 2 is their hobby. A minipet…an outfit…a convenience item (like infinite picks), even some of the toys.

Plenty of casual people put money into gems.

Probably the wrong wording. I meant the wider audience. Right now WvW players are literally begging for something exciting to stir up the mode. PvP definitely needs new modes to even be successful at being an e-sport. Conquest isn’t all that exciting to watch.

You mean to tell me if this game was harder overall, no one would play anymore? Most of this game is easy mode, especially at 80. So if they brought the level up throughout the game and added higher challenges with better rewards in new dungeons, most of your guild would quit?

Regardless, i think it’s too late to do that sort of revamp anyway, at least for players that already left.

Okay, I’m not saying if the game was harder, no one would play it. I never even implied it. My argument is more basic.

There are X number of dev hours, and y amount of stuff to do. Any company is going to put the focus first on the higher population and give something they can to the lower population when they can.

Guild Wars 2’s biggest mistake, in my opinion, was the temporary content from Season 1. It’s not just that it’s mostly PvE content and that it wouldn’t satisfy PvPers or hard core players. It’s that if all that stuff was in there, PvE’ers wouldn’t have less to do and maybe, just maybe, Anet would have the time now to put more effort into the hard core stuff…and the PvP. And maybe dungeons.

They don’t have the time, because even though some of that new content was a blast, it’s not here now. Throw SAB, the nightmare tower and the marionette back into the game, and you have more to do.

Same with the fractals. Putting the Aetherblade dungeon and the Molten Facility in the fractals isn’t the same as having the dungeons. People who don’t want their entertainment RNG might rather just do a dungeon. Those options aren’t there. Dungeon guys can say we’ve had almost no new dungeons, because where are they? It’s not that Anet didn’t take the the time to make them. Anet put them in the game and took them out.

So now you have dungeon guys, hard core guys, PvP guys and WvW guys who all want new stuff, but so do the PvE people, who I still believe are the biggest demographic. If that stuff had stayed in the game, Anet might not be where they are now. I consider it a mistake…again my opinion.

However, it’s not and Anet has to eat that mistake. Anet is trying to rectify it now by playing catch up and it’s going slow. It doesn’t help that everytime Anet makes the changes they feel are necessary, the entire forum goes wild and begins to protest and ask for changes, all of which take time and slow down the schedule. But you know, I don’t blame people for doing it either. It just don’t help get content out faster.

At the end of the day, there’s nothing at all wrong with hard core content being added, if there’s time to do it without jeopardizing the casual playerbase. But look at what happened with the NPE. A small percentage of the last update was for new players and all we see are threads saying Anet only cares about new players.

If Anet focused now on hard core content, the risk of people who are casual leaving the game is greater, and that’s the one thing Anet doesn’t want to do right now.

munkiman.3068:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Essentially he is saying that gw2 population is generally way at the bottom % of gamers in being able deal with challenge.
Therefore anet makes the content that their population can handle, which he implies is extremely low.

I personally believe that gw2 players arent any less capable than other players, they like the systems and enjoy using them well, and knowing their class, its just extremely rare that game actually requires them to use these skills.
After a little while people adapt, and they tend to enjoy overcoming, or matching different challenges.

Nah, any game that strives for large playerbase has vast majority that want easy stuff, and any company thats wise will provide vast majority of such content.

If you want ultra challenging game you cant expect large playerbase. Its just how it is.

The more people you strive to please, the more tend to leave after awhile and it doesn’t seem like those people would be the ones to buy stuff in the store either.

I don’t know why you think this. A lot of the people in my guild aren’t really into challenging content, but I’m sure many if not most spend money in the cash shop. A lot of working people in my guild who buy stuff because Guild Wars 2 is their hobby. A minipet…an outfit…a convenience item (like infinite picks), even some of the toys.

Plenty of casual people put money into gems.

munkiman.3068:

aerial.7021:

munkiman.3068:

fireflyry.7023:

munkiman.3068:

I personally don’t care if they change it, but it would be nice if WvW exclusive players could get an equivalent reward without trudging through PvE. There really isn’t a big deal to do map completion and it certainly isn’t legendary to just buy it outright.

If you don’t care why even post? Then you go on to state map completion isn’t a big deal and one can just buy it. So that totally negates the issue at hand? Seriously? Why even bother posting on the topic if you care so little and choose to be so flippant.

I wasn’t saying you can buy map completion… The end result of it however is a legendary, which you can buy, bypassing that task completely. I don’t mind the WvW aspect of map completion, but i can see how people do. I was stating an opinion, like it or not and offered a suggestion for a change. I’m not sure why you’re so defensive to being with, but that’s not the point.

Further more, separating the 2 makes sense from a lore standpoint. As WvW takes place in the mist, which isn’t the “world” of Tyria itself. There are certainly players that just play WvW and don’t want to run around the map of Tyria to earn a legendary. I certainly don’t have a problem with that either.

I’m not a lore buff at all but I know the mists aren’t apart of the world, but do we know that? are they on Tyria but behind some impenetrable mist (likely powered by all the dead PvE players attempting map completion by there lifeless corps, so that’s how the dragons woke up its all you PvP players fault! kitten you!).

There are other ways to roll around this map too, have a PvE tutorial for each of the maps with poi, vista, so no need to unlock them in the real PvP world.

I think the mists are more like the universe. so in that sense, we are saying you need to explore the moon in order to get world completion on the earth.

I think I have a slightly better analogy. The moon is after all in the same dimension as Earth. It’s more like saying you have to explore the ethereal or astral plane in order to map the Earth.

Xae Isareth.1364:

phys.7689:

Xae Isareth.1364:

phys.7689:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Malkavian.4516:

Nick.6972:

Was watching Destiny Review and it reminded me of GW2 for some reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzopWRXK_r4
Grinding, no content, insane RNG.
Perhaps it’s time for the developers to focus on sandbox MMOs instead of theme park.

I haven’t played Destiny at all, but from what I can tell, to make a legendary you rely solely on luck where we could at least make our legendaries given the dedication plus a bit of luck. As for content, I got enough content in GW2 compared to what I have seen in Destiny although the content this game offers may not be to your liking.

Legendaries in Destiny are nothing quite like legendaries in GW2. They’re….more like legendaries in Diablo.

They aren’t that rare.

GW2’s problem isn’t exactly a lack of content. If you just got into the game, then there’s more than enough content. The twofold problem is that one: most of the content is very unrewarding and two: there’s very little growth in the amount of core content it has.

i would add to the problems, very little of the content has much depth for experienced players.

I tend to think GW2 just wasn’t made for the ‘experienced’ players. The developers are barely creating enough content to satisfy the large majority that is the casual players, I don’t think they’ll ever get around to creating content for the 5%.

As for how that’s possible with a studio their size. Who the heck knows.

i think its a misnomer to think as experience players as the 5%, mario, contra, sonic, were all mainstream games, all of them are probably a lot more difficult than 90% of guild wars.
experienced doesnt mean the 5%, it means people that have gone beyond simply winning by brute force in every encounter.
Also, the game should better be able to adapt to the skill level of the player. Im sure not everyone can handle something made for the 5%, but most of the content is currently being played at like the bottom 25%s level. Is shatterer a boss that you cannot fall asleep on?
is it even possible to fail most of these events with 60+ people pressing 1?

there is a lot of gradations in difficulty, we are far from the top 5%.

basically, i dont think it would be entertaining for long if they made 5 new world bosses on the level of shatterer fights.

kitten snes streetfighter sold 6.3 million, maybe people who play games are just not as skilled as they used to be.

The 5% of this game. At this point, everyone knows that if you’re looking for challenging content, GW2 isn’t the MMO for you.

Just look at Aetherpath. That’s hardly a 5% dungeon, yet I dread to PUG that place.

So what you’re saying is that dungeon is hard enough to require an organized group? I thought that was the type of content people were asking for.

Pugging that dungeon is much harder than running it with a guild group with say voice communication. Working as intended.

aerial.7021:

munkiman.3068:

fireflyry.7023:

munkiman.3068:

I personally don’t care if they change it, but it would be nice if WvW exclusive players could get an equivalent reward without trudging through PvE. There really isn’t a big deal to do map completion and it certainly isn’t legendary to just buy it outright.

If you don’t care why even post? Then you go on to state map completion isn’t a big deal and one can just buy it. So that totally negates the issue at hand? Seriously? Why even bother posting on the topic if you care so little and choose to be so flippant.

I wasn’t saying you can buy map completion… The end result of it however is a legendary, which you can buy, bypassing that task completely. I don’t mind the WvW aspect of map completion, but i can see how people do. I was stating an opinion, like it or not and offered a suggestion for a change. I’m not sure why you’re so defensive to being with, but that’s not the point.

Further more, separating the 2 makes sense from a lore standpoint. As WvW takes place in the mist, which isn’t the “world” of Tyria itself. There are certainly players that just play WvW and don’t want to run around the map of Tyria to earn a legendary. I certainly don’t have a problem with that either.

I’m not a lore buff at all but I know the mists aren’t apart of the world, but do we know that? are they on Tyria but behind some impenetrable mist (likely powered by all the dead PvE players attempting map completion by there lifeless corps, so that’s how the dragons woke up its all you PvP players fault! kitten you!).

There are other ways to roll around this map too, have a PvE tutorial for each of the maps with poi, vista, so no need to unlock them in the real PvP world.

The Mists are 100% definitely not on the world. They’re not in the same dimension even. Originally you couldn’t get from Tyria to the mists until one man created a fissure that opened up the passage.

The mists are where all things come from and all things go back to. It’s where the souls of dead adventurers go.

Edit: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mists

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

Patrons leveled faster, so they’re higher levels, for one thing.

Yes. A higher level player will beat a lower level player. Patrons can potentially level faster than free-to-play players. However, it is fallacious to assume (or, as you are doing, to espouse) that the potential to do something assures the actuality of it happening.

All I have to say is, if you think ArchAge is a pay-to-win game, then you’re lucky that you’ve never actually played a game where you can actually buy power. (Maplestory anyone?)

There are certainly levels of pay to win, no question about it. Maplestory is a pay 2 win game too. But since major features of Archeage are locked out to free players (hell selling on the trading post, really), I don’t consider the game free to play. It’s at best free to try.

Do you know why it’s free to play? Because in Korea when it was pay to play, no one played it, and eventually it had to go free to play there to get players.

At any rate, there’s not point in talking about it anymore, since the Archeage forum is that way. —-→