Guild Wars 2

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Exactly it’s a b2p with an ig shop (meaning you’re paying double, basicaly) that is showed down your throats because the game design took a turn towards cannibilizing its playerbase (gold grind everywhere and few means to obtain the gold at a moderately normal pace without using the suggested methods).

In a way, it’s even funnier than an outright f2p game with a sub or ig shop, given it’s ‘sneaky’ turn to the gem shop, on top of the box purchase.

The labor point system in AA is by far the most insidious thing I’ve ever seen in an MMO. It’s set up so that they can really tweak it later on but even now, if you want to report a player for botting lets say, you’d have to spent 25 labor points.

It’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen in a game.

I assume it’s such a good game, you’d rather be here posting than playing it. Oh, nevermind, you’re probably in the queue.

I find it surprising that this thread has devolved to comparing Why GW2 isn’t working to AA, a PvP only game…

I still would like to know what ANet plans to do to keep me playing and spending money in the gem store. What’s the long-term plan here? Are we going to keep going with the LS? or Are we going to take a sharp left and focus on “an expansions worth of content”.

Whether you agree or not, for me, the living story stuff only get’s me back for a couple hours at best. I like the creative map design of Dry Top, for sure, but there really isn’t much motivation to “grind” out geodes or foxfire clusters, nor are the RNG rewards that enticing either.

One of the biggest problems is in the design of the game at its core. It seems like it takes a pretty large amount of time to build a map along with events. So they might actually be stuck with keeping with these smaller jaunts going with LS. Sadly though, a sizable chunk of players aren’t all that engaged and don’t find it very entertaining.

I tend to agree with phys and others that have stated the need for smaller group, challenging content. I agree they did great with fractals, but that’s really just one area that’s engaging with less promise of wanted loot. That seems to take away from the experience. I mean, how many rings does a player need? Especially since they don’t have much value, if any.

When i think back to the original that kept me engaged for the better part of 7 years, i think about the challenges. Some of us spent our weekends practicing runs from beacons to droks or 2 man UW ecto farming, or sorrows furnace for greens they introduced. It was a simpler game, while not perfect, kept me engaged as content rolled out. Level 20 was just enough of an experience, since the content matched quite well to the cap and there was also ways to improve or modify your build to succeed. I was always excited to see what they would produce next.

So here we are, with a game that’s engaging for a smaller window of time, that seems to need a cash shop to keep running, but isn’t all that challenging or engaging post level cap. The discussion we should be having is where do we go from here, given the limits to the games base design and how long it seems to take to provide new engaging content for players to consume and get better at to complete.

You have valid points. The game is going to need an influx of content to keep people playing, at least people who play a lot.

As for comparing it to AA, I certainly didn’t start that. But I’ll certainly make sure that people who are listening know both sides of that tale.

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

But since patrons can get to 50 faster and then make other people actually lose experience, in theory you can stop someone from getting to 50 for a much longer time, during which time you’re farming them.

The encounter you described has nothing to do with free to play versus patron. A free to play player can grief a patron the exact same way you’re describing. In practice, it’s not likely. If someone is really getting harassed to the point they are incapable of leveling, they should seek out a guild and make sure they don’t level alone. Leveling solo is never a good idea in an open-world PvP game.

Patrons level faster, both in 10% experience and through more use of their labor points. However, a free player in ArchAge can still reach level 50 (and many have) and experience some of what the game has to offer. The main reason free-to-play players have limited labor is because without it there would be hundreds of accounts being made funneling labor into one person.

Patrons leveled faster, so they’re higher levels, for one thing. And since a higher level character will almost always beat a lower level character…well, it’s okay it’s an open world PvP game. It’ll be an open world PvP game where big guilds dominate each server and only by joining one of those guilds will you ever have a real shot at playing…certainly for most people.

Most players don’t love being killed repeatedly and they leave games like that, which is why most MMOs have less PvP servers than PvE servers. AA isn’t a bad game (in spite of labor points which I can’t stand). Some features of the game are completely locked behind a pay wall. Want to use the auction house, sorry. Paying customers only. Oh, well you can buy a contract to use the auction house. That’s not free to play to me. And of course you can’t have a house unless you pay a sub.

To me, it’s dishonest advertising. AA will find it’s niche audience. But it’s not going to have a major affect on theme park MMOs.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Archache is just another Koreagrinder which people run to and come back after 1-2 months after they realize that nothing has changed in the MMO world. Let’s face it: yes GW2 lacks enough content (IMHO) a lot of content, but it does a lot of things right. It is if you check Metacritic still the best rated MMO in the past two years.

Except for TSW.

KarlaGrey.5903:

MikaHR.1978:

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

Ascended was a mistake on Anets part, thats true, but if you see getting ascended as “unreasonable” you should really try AA, it will make your head explode in comparison.

And yes, AA hides behind F2P as its wannabe sub+invasive cash shop game.

And GW2 is a wannabe b2p+invasive cash shop game.

But hey, at least you admit to the whole ascended fiasco, unlike certain other apologists.

And while content might not be directly locked out to players on GW2, the lack of a level-field in terms of gear in certain zones (most notably WvW, and the req for BiS in fractals), boils down to locked-out-of-content or get rolled (of course, you’re welcome to zerg all day long, or try your luck in yellows/random exotics…by all means do so and report back on how the experiment went).
Call it soft restriction, if you will, but it is still a restriction, and with a very clear intention.

Yes, this game was predicated on the fact that you could spend time or money. It was said before launch. You can save lots of time, or you can save lots of money. I prefer to play games, even though I have the money so I don’t buy gems to sell for cash. Some people can only play a couple of hours a week, so they can choose instead to spend money not get stuff.

But since Anet did talk about this aspect before launch, I’m not sure you can say they’re pretending to be anything.

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

Apparently even use of the report function in AA requires labor points. lol

If you played the game, you would know that you get your labor points back with a bonus if the person is actually a bot and banned.

Vayne.8563:

With AA you’re screwed because no matter what you do as a free player, paying players have an advantage over you.

Sorry, but can you explain what the advantage a Patron has over a free-to-play player? A level 50 free-to-play player versus a Patron in equal gear are going to be on the exact same playing field.

But since patrons can get to 50 faster and then make other people actually lose experience, in theory you can stop someone from getting to 50 for a much longer time, during which time you’re farming them.

My son is doing it. He’s been farming free players. He’s have a ball. The free players he’s farming? Not so much.

Edit: It’s become so bad, the community managers on the forums are asking people not to kill the free players. That should say something. Even AA knows it’s P2W. lol

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

Unless they’re not truly free to play, and AA isn’t.

Anyway what BIS items in the cash shop are you talking about in Guild Wars 2?

KarlaGrey.5903:

Exactly it’s a b2p with an ig shop (meaning you’re paying double, basicaly) that is showed down your throats because the game design took a turn towards cannibilizing its playerbase (gold grind everywhere and few means to obtain the gold at a moderately normal pace without using the suggested methods).

In a way, it’s even funnier than an outright f2p game with a sub or ig shop, given it’s ‘sneaky’ turn to the gem shop, on top of the box purchase.

The labor point system in AA is by far the most insidious thing I’ve ever seen in an MMO. It’s set up so that they can really tweak it later on but even now, if you want to report a player for botting lets say, you’d have to spent 25 labor points.

It’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen in a game.

I assume it’s such a good game, you’d rather be here posting than playing it. Oh, nevermind, you’re probably in the queue.

KarlaGrey.5903:

How’s that any different from GW2 and it’s ‘friendly’ hinting to purchase gems and turn them into gold (as means of fighting the insane gold grind needed for the BiS, for example), meanwhile nerfing any and all farm spots, keeping TP flipping unhindered, implementing a looting system that gives an impression it was created with the sole purpose of trolling players (cuz gem sop is where the fun’z to be had).

You people, really….

What are you even talking about? In Guild Wars 2, if you don’t spend any money at all, you can still play the game on an equal level to most other players.

With AA you’re screwed because no matter what you do as a free player, paying players have an advantage over you. And they can not only kill you, they can cause you to lose experience.

Some players are using stuns to prevent people from fighting mobs, so the mob kills them so they lose experience.

I’m not sure how that equate to Guild Wars 2 at all.

Guild Wars 2 is a buy to play game. You can buy it and play it. AA is advertised as a free to play game. It should have been called free to die.

MikaHR.1978:

Nerelith.7360:

snip

Dude, playing with semantics wont really change one fact:

AA is P2W.

phys.7689:

that would mean sub based, which is essentially what arche age is, sub/cash shop hybrid.
and before you say thats dumb, keep in mind gw2 already using this model in china, and some version of it may come here eventually

You are right, you have to “sub” AND pay on top of that.

Its worst case of P2W, side by side many of F2P games.

And your jab at GW2 is not really jab, afaik were not playing china GW2 and dont have anything to do with china GW2, not even same company running it. AND we dont get china VIP. So yeah, any comparison of AA and GW2 is just weak attempt at….something.

Anyway, if you want to try/play AA be prepared to open your wallet wide, costantly. Its the worst case scenario of "sub"+invasive cash shop.

Apparently even use of the report function in AA requires labor points. lol

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

@Vayne,

I do see one big flaw in your argument: “Most people are casuals, they don’t even try out hard stuff”. Let me explain through an example: Lets say anet releases the most hardest thing ever, and they look at the numbers how many people tried out 1 month after release. Let’s say about 15% and they even make this number public to demonstrate why they don’t make hard content, but something is missing.

For this information to even worth something we need to know another thing: The percentage of active players during that time. This is an information that’s never going to be available for us to see. But lets say during that month 30% of the playerbase was active. That would mean about 50% of the active playerbase tried it out.
That would mean the casuals who don’t even try out the hard things are in the other 50% together with PvP/WvW exclusive folks, new players & etc. which would mean they are a minority. But we don’t see that.

Also some other informations would also be useful like, how many people completed it , the percentage of active players before the release (if it’s like 25% that would mean the release drawed back 5% of the players) The next month’s data etc.
My point is, you can’t draw a conclusion like that from a tiny bit of information.

I’m pretty sure that Anet would look at the percent of active players doing it. They’re professional developers, in spite of the fact that some people think they do stuff for no reason. I’m sure Anet has a reason for every change they make even if it might not look like they do.

When they run metrics, they look at the percentage of people playing doing a dungeon, not the percentage of people who have ever played, because that wouldn’t show them any thing.

But I’ve been thinking about it, and I think that it’s not wrong to say people want challenging content. The problem is, challenging means very different things to different people.

Challenging to younger guys who grew up playing this games and play a lot is different than challenge to me.

With the age of the average gamer on the rise, and many people only being able to devote a few hours a week to the game, it’s hard to believe most people want the kinds of ultra hard content other people want to keep them challenged.

I bet if they put in stuff that challenged the hard core guys, a lot of people wouldn’t be able to do it. It wouldn’t be challenging for them anymore, it would become frustrating.

That’s where the problem really starts. The more frustrating stuff, the more people feel they can’t handle the game, the more likely they are to walk.

I’m sure anet knows what would be best for GW2, but anet also knows what is best for anet. The launch of living story wasn’t based on metrics. The fact is, like you said yourselfs, it’s easier to cater to casuals than to anyone else, and for that the concept of living story is perfect. The last two year was casual priority, and I don’t expect much in the future either, this would explain the company policy too.

And on challenge: it’s optional. Have you ever completed something that was hard and frustrated you for a long time? It’s well worth it.

Some things I’ve completed that were hard and felt they were well worth it. Other things that are hard I consider to be not worth it, but frustrating, if I feel the challenge isn’t fair somehow. Or if there’s a lot of wasted time to get to try it. That annoys me. I don’t like to play through an entire living story to try to get one achievement, miss it and have to play through it again. That isn’t fun for me.

But Anet isn’t just making things the way they are to save labor. That’s a misnomer. It would have been far less work for Anet to create a tutorial then do the NPE. They did it because it tested best. Tested is the key word here. Not your opinion. Not my opinion. They ran tests and had a result and based what they did on that result. Like it or not, that’s how it went down…unless Anet is lying.

Julie Yann.5379:

RiverSong.5067:

You will excuse me for saying so but there is, or was, an employe of anet in my alliance. I heard, not from him but from a guildie, that the developers had a problem.

This hypotetical problem would be that they’re told how to develop the game, against their best judgement sometimes.

I do not have detailed information as i was not part of the conversation but i can’t just put this aside. If there is someone else calling the shots, i feel the devs should go in damage control mode. Traits changes, NPE changes… Those were very sudden, no brutal moves for the players. That is why they rejected them.

I would like to suggest that in the case where my suspicions were right, and the devs have to answer to a higher up, they request that the question is debated by their team.

What i mean is this: Boss X says to Dev Y, remove key farming by scrapping the personnal story until level 10. Dev Y then goes: why? Boss X goes just do it. Dev Y goes: no. Boss X goes: what?! Dev X goes: you will tell me what the problem is and we will fix it how we see fit, IF we see fit. Boss X dies of a heart attack. Boss XY goes: ok.

This is all just a theory.

Check out Anet’s reviews on glassdoor.com, should give you some perspective.

It should. Most of them are positive.

I don’t think people dislike farmers. I think there is a small percentage of farmers who are give the rest of them a bad name, but calling out anyone who affects what they’re doing.

Once, in Queensdale, I killed a champ. I wasn’t really thinking about it. Some farmer calls me out on map and starts yelling at me for ruining the train. This is the kind of thing that gives farmers a bad name.

Even after I apologized and said I wasn’t thinking, a couple of guys continued to hurl abuse at me.

Most farmers are fine, but a few vocal bad guys ruin the reputation of all of them.

It was supposed to be added to create a sense of progression, rather than just have traits handed to you randomly for no reason.

It backfired.

The idea is sound. The execution was poor.

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

Show some independent thoughts On the issue, and that you haven’t just read a few posts On reddit, and jumped On the " AA is p2w" bandwagon.

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

So you refuse to define pay2win? I can understand why. Either you are on the " AA is p2w " bandwagon , and have not given it any independent though. Or you do not have an actual definition. I have one Online says

Pay2win- When a player can purchase BiS weapon or armor from the cash shop, that is better than anything that can ever be purchased or crafted by a Player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop, or when a Player using cash at the cash shop, can craft or create something better and faster, than can be crafted or purchased by another player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop that relies only on in game gold.

Now… Archeage does not fit that definition, … neither does Gw2. But:

You can stretch, and warp the definition to try and fit Archeage into it, so that it seems that " Archeage is p2w."

Thing is, that I can then warp and twist and loosen the definition so that Gw2 similarly fits In and I can then say " Gw2 is pay2win"

You make a Lot of unwarranted assumptions, and you argue a Lot of things through Hyperbole and conjecture.

the ONLY thing you did NOT do, is give me YOUR definition of pay2win, that includes Archeage, and excludes Gw2.

I’ll give you another shot. Otherwise you lose all credibility.

Archeage is only pay to win if it’s free to play, which it claims it is.

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

The problem is Trion says it’s free to play. Then it’s pay to win.

I disagree, Just because a game is free2play does not make it pay2win. Under that definition Gw2 is also pay2win. After all, the cash shop in Gw2 follows the model of the cash shop in any other free2play game, including AA.

The only difference between the two is Gw2 charges you money to install the game. AA does not. Aside from that. They are both cash shop reliant, and they both sell Non-cosmetic items On the cash shop for the convenience of players.

They both sell convenience for cash. if that makes Archeage pay2win, that also makes Gw2 pay2win. That isn’t what you mean vayne right?

It is free2play, because anything a patron can do a free2player can do. There is no part of the game that is denied a free player. A free to play player cannot own land, their Labor Points are less, they gain less while online, and none while offline.

Aside from that anything you can Imagine a patron doing a free2play player can also do.

Are some parts of the game there that patrons can enjoy that free2play players cannot? yes. Otherwise, why play for patron? Basically Offline LP regen, and land ownership.

That makes Archeage free2play. You CAN play it for free. You are not limited in levels unlike World of Warcraft, where it is only free2play til level 20.

The thing is, that if no areas are denied free2play players, and no level are denied free2play players, and no armor or weapons are denied free2play players,… How is it not free2play?

Can you PvP for free? yes. Can you craft for free? yes. Can you farm for free? yes. Can you fish for free? yes. Can you own a ship and pirate other ships for free? yes.

Therefore it IS free2play.

How is it not free2play? You can Play… for free. that is the definition of free2play.

Example of NOT free2play. World of Warcraft after level 20. You cannot access servers without a subscription.

Free2play means you can access the servers without a Monthly subscription.

Therefore it is free2play.

PS what ddoes this mean?

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

You like the game so you’re willfully ignoring the issue.

If a game is free to play you don’t have to pay to play it. If you don’t pay to play it, you’re at a major disadvantage. That’s the very definition of pay to win.

Pay to win it’s not if it were only subscription. Free players are at a disadvantage.

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

Show some independent thoughts On the issue, and that you haven’t just read a few posts On reddit, and jumped On the " AA is p2w" bandwagon.

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

So you refuse to define pay2win? I can understand why. Either you are on the " AA is p2w " bandwagon , and have not given it any independent though. Or you do not have an actual definition. I have one Online says

Pay2win- When a player can purchase BiS weapon or armor from the cash shop, that is better than anything that can ever be purchased or crafted by a Player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop, or when a Player using cash at the cash shop, can craft or create something better and faster, than can be crafted or purchased by another player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop that relies only on in game gold.

Now… Archeage does not fit that definition, … neither does Gw2. But:

You can stretch, and warp the definition to try and fit Archeage into it, so that it seems that " Archeage is p2w."

Thing is, that I can then warp and twist and loosen the definition so that Gw2 similarly fits In and I can then say " Gw2 is pay2win"

You make a Lot of unwarranted assumptions, and you argue a Lot of things through Hyperbole and conjecture.

the ONLY thing you did NOT do, is give me YOUR definition of pay2win, that includes Archeage, and excludes Gw2.

I’ll give you another shot. Otherwise you lose all credibility.

Archeage is only pay to win if it’s free to play, which it claims it is.

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

The problem is Trion says it’s free to play. Then it’s pay to win.

Whether you like this game or not has less to do with the game itself and more to do with your expectations of the game. Some people here are angry because earlier videos of the game gave them expectations that haven’t met. Even in this thread people are quoting a four year old video and a couple of lines from it, and using that to dislike everything about the game. Because there is some grind for items you don’t actually need to play the game…but it’s still grind.

You can grind stuff out, or you can play casually. If you play casually and don’t worry about grind, it’ll take you much longer to get stuff. On the other hand, you don’t need the stuff to play the game. It’s not like many other games where you’re gated by gear that’s out of reach without grinding.

Many of us have put thousands of hours into the game and still have stuff to do, but the game needs an influx of new content to get us to the next stage.

Mostly the people who are complaining are disappointed because they saw a potential the game never reached. But every MMO that comes out, people say this game is going to die now that (ESO, Wildstar, Whatever) is out. It’s not even come close to happening yet.

I really liked damage types in Guild Wars 1 and I was disappointed not to find them in Guild Wars 2. I also liked that you couldn’t use specific conditions on say skeletons, that poison, disease and bleeding wouldn’t work on them. I used them all the time. Shadow damage ftw.

But yeah, I think even in Guild Wars 1 most people didn’t know or care.

I think you need a range of events. Take the toxic spore events. Most of the time they don’t get done. That’s because many people like faceroll content.

When warrior was the flavor of the month, lots of people rolled it, even though it was for the most part faceroll. I found it boring.

But I think that if you make all the events more difficult, the game will lose a lot of players.

There needs to be a range of events for all players, not just events that cater to one type or another.

If people didn’t like face roll events, there would’ve been no Queensdale champ train.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Shing Jea Monastery had over a hundred districts when I used to play Guild Wars 1. ToA had about 5 max, and most of the time less.

“I’ve never ever seen ToA hav anywhere near the amount of districts you see in Shing Jea.

The only times in the 5+ years I played GW I saw 100 districts in Shing Jea were festivals. The boardwalk was open and hordes of players were AFK with inventories full of tickets on one of the games trying for the Luck title; or when the festival provided a hat to players present during an event. At off times, SJM had a few districts, primarily filled with people who preferred to socialize rather than play the game.

Shing Jea was a social hub. The thing about a social hub is that it will tend to spawn copies because the socializers aren’t leaving. People forming parties in ToA spent as little time there as was needed to get their group together, then left.

Not to say I disagree with the idea that there are more softcore than hardcore players. However, your post gives the impression that 100 districts in Shing Jea was a regular thing. It was not. I know you said, “When I played GW.” However, unless you only played GW during the first week of Factions (maybe) or at Festivals, 100 Shing Jeas was not the norm.

That’s what he was talking about in his post. Festivals.

He was saying more people like hard core than casual stuff, because there were as many people in ToA as there were in festival cities.

My bad, sorry. Festivals, especially the SJ boardwalk, attracted all sorts of players, hardcore and softcore alike. They were more representative of most of the game’s population than any niche.

I agree with that. But I think that in general, people tend to over-estimate the amount of people who do the hardest content.

That’s just my opinion, but there are actual reasons that I hold it.

And again, what’s challenging to one person might very well be easy to another.

Okay I’m testing it now. When your story is active, it always defaults to your story…making that the priority. To use it for map completion you’d need to turn off the story option.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Shing Jea Monastery had over a hundred districts when I used to play Guild Wars 1. ToA had about 5 max, and most of the time less.

“I’ve never ever seen ToA hav anywhere near the amount of districts you see in Shing Jea.

The only times in the 5+ years I played GW I saw 100 districts in Shing Jea were festivals. The boardwalk was open and hordes of players were AFK with inventories full of tickets on one of the games trying for the Luck title; or when the festival provided a hat to players present during an event. At off times, SJM had a few districts, primarily filled with people who preferred to socialize rather than play the game.

Shing Jea was a social hub. The thing about a social hub is that it will tend to spawn copies because the socializers aren’t leaving. People forming parties in ToA spent as little time there as was needed to get their group together, then left.

Not to say I disagree with the idea that there are more softcore than hardcore players. However, your post gives the impression that 100 districts in Shing Jea was a regular thing. It was not. I know you said, “When I played GW.” However, unless you only played GW during the first week of Factions (maybe) or at Festivals, 100 Shing Jeas was not the norm.

That’s what he was talking about in his post. Festivals.

He was saying more people like hard core than casual stuff, because there were as many people in ToA as there were in festival cities.

RoyHarmon.5398:

Okay, that’s pretty useless.

The only time my Personal Story would be showing up in the “Content Guide” is when I’m standing right next to the location of the next step, right? Otherwise, there’s always going to be something closer, usually an event.

It may prioritize personal story if you can do it. I suspect it does anyway. I’d have to test it.

I just don’t believe it’s good design to have any event reward you more for failing it. It’s a problem that needs to be looked at.

I just hope the solution doesn’t end up worse than the problem.

Scipio.3204:

@Vayne,

I do see one big flaw in your argument: “Most people are casuals, they don’t even try out hard stuff”. Let me explain through an example: Lets say anet releases the most hardest thing ever, and they look at the numbers how many people tried out 1 month after release. Let’s say about 15% and they even make this number public to demonstrate why they don’t make hard content, but something is missing.

For this information to even worth something we need to know another thing: The percentage of active players during that time. This is an information that’s never going to be available for us to see. But lets say during that month 30% of the playerbase was active. That would mean about 50% of the active playerbase tried it out.
That would mean the casuals who don’t even try out the hard things are in the other 50% together with PvP/WvW exclusive folks, new players & etc. which would mean they are a minority. But we don’t see that.

Also some other informations would also be useful like, how many people completed it , the percentage of active players before the release (if it’s like 25% that would mean the release drawed back 5% of the players) The next month’s data etc.
My point is, you can’t draw a conclusion like that from a tiny bit of information.

I’m pretty sure that Anet would look at the percent of active players doing it. They’re professional developers, in spite of the fact that some people think they do stuff for no reason. I’m sure Anet has a reason for every change they make even if it might not look like they do.

When they run metrics, they look at the percentage of people playing doing a dungeon, not the percentage of people who have ever played, because that wouldn’t show them any thing.

But I’ve been thinking about it, and I think that it’s not wrong to say people want challenging content. The problem is, challenging means very different things to different people.

Challenging to younger guys who grew up playing this games and play a lot is different than challenge to me.

With the age of the average gamer on the rise, and many people only being able to devote a few hours a week to the game, it’s hard to believe most people want the kinds of ultra hard content other people want to keep them challenged.

I bet if they put in stuff that challenged the hard core guys, a lot of people wouldn’t be able to do it. It wouldn’t be challenging for them anymore, it would become frustrating.

That’s where the problem really starts. The more frustrating stuff, the more people feel they can’t handle the game, the more likely they are to walk.

Rogue.7856:

Your absolutely right. Your going to need those boosters to speed to the fun stuff…

Magic find and karma booster don’t actually speed up the game…they just increase your reward for doing content you were doing anyway.

Odokuro.5049:

If your there to help out your fellow guild member, and to spend time with them, then being rewarded for your “help” shouldn’t even be on your list of expectations, besides it’s their Personal Story not yours, and the reward should be knowing that you helped out someone in need.

I always help out. But I also know for a fact, many others won’t without some kind of reward. It doesn’t have to be equal. But people shouldn’t be discouraged for it.

In a game where gold isn’t all that easy to come by, helping someone for a couple of hours to most people means not taking care of their own business.

@cedo, I didn’t notice karma gain because I wasn’t looking for it, but cool if it was. I can always use more karma.

RoyHarmon.5398:

Vayne.8563:

RoyHarmon.5398:

Right… So, what does it do? Because I haven’t noticed it doing anything differently when I have it set to “default.”

Default means all the options are on. It points to PS and zone completion. Turning it off removes it. The other options specificy what it does and doesn’t point to.

No, I mean… The “Hide personal story” option. What’s the difference between “default” and “hide personal story”? Because I see no difference whatsoever. It’s not hiding my personal story, so what does that option do?

It stops the arrow from pointing to your personal story. The setting controls the arrow nothing else. If everything is enabled, it points to whatever is closest…including your next personal story.

If you hide it the arrow is there for map completion but ignores your personal story.

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

i actually rather have no rewards beside the normal ones like skill points and trait points, i have no use for stuff i am never gonna use anyway or can’t even sell.
i don’t want to see a level-up window every time i level up and that also counts for the renown hearts, just do it automatic and be done with it.

You can always delete a reward you don’t like. People who would prefer rewards can’t manufacturer them if the game doesn’t provide them.

but you still get an annoying reward screen, the one thing that gets on my nerves.
sure, i could ignore it but Anet loves to annoy ppl with blinking and moving icons, making ignoring the icon an impossibility.

I’m going to guess that more people like getting rewards and even reward screens than not. Just a guess…but I’m going with it.

Yeah, but I’m actually looking forward to it anyway.

sorudo.9054:

i actually rather have no rewards beside the normal ones like skill points and trait points, i have no use for stuff i am never gonna use anyway or can’t even sell.
i don’t want to see a level-up window every time i level up and that also counts for the renown hearts, just do it automatic and be done with it.

You can always delete a reward you don’t like. People who would prefer rewards can’t manufacturer them if the game doesn’t provide them.

I’ll have it in dailies before the monthly resets, but that was a great point. lol

I don’t think you get anything anymore. No experience, no gold, no karma and no drops. No chest or loot.

I think it should be looked at.

I think the OP has a fair point (even though I’d gotten two of of three of those achievements already).

The whole way it was originally set up was very weird. It was like you could get the achievement and then sell the stuff anyway. So there was no reason to keep it.

I always thought that was a very strange way to go about things.

35 points from 20,000 achievement points and my achievements that are left to do aren’t particularly stuff I want to do. I “could” do them but I’m not really a grinding sort of guy.

Anyone else hate that time when you have 40-50 points to your next big chest and you realize you’ll be getting it with dailies? lol

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I totally think you’re wrong on this. Mostly because you could compare any of the festivals (winters day, Halloween, etc.) district count. Temple of Ages often had almost as many districts very regularly. Also, ectos were considered currency and that was the only place you could get them (minus tombs which only had a few mobs that dropped them). On top of the fact that they built entrances to UW and FoW into each of the 2 campaigns. If it wasn’t a popular thing, i really don’t think they’d bother giving people access to it in Factions and Nightfall. When tombs opened up it was pretty crazy how many people where running that. Then Sorrows Furnace, which also was a smashingly fun area, was often packed. Everyone i knew and i mean everyone, did those and that was a lot of people. While it may not of been the majority of people that actually played the game to 20, it was definitely a very large minority, especially those people that played very frequently.

Yes, people got bored, for sure… but there was frequent availability for challenging, rewarding content. This game has very little of that and there in lies a pretty big problem.

Shing Jea Monastery had over a hundred districts when I used to play Guild Wars 1. ToA had about 5 max, and most of the time less.

“I’ve never ever seen ToA hav anywhere near the amount of districts you see in Shing Jea.

Other events were in multiple cities, where as almost no one ever used Zu Kin Corridor or Chantry of Secrets to make parties.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Vayne.8563:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

PrinceWarhero.4256:

Vayne.8563:

Seven skill points, a booster and a salvage kit? Sounds like a decent reward to me.

previously we used to get 1 skill point per level. now its 7 skill point given at end of every 7th level !!! lame

Actually it’s not lame. It’s better. Because by the time you get to higher levels, 1 skill point does absolutely nothing. You probably all the one point skills you need long before that. When this game was designed skill point scrolls didn’t exist either.

There’s nothing lame about the decision.

So your position is that absolutely no one ever has any use for a number of skillpoints smaller than 7, and that’s why it’s better to just give out 7 at a time?

Not my position at all. My position as quoted in another thread is that getting the same reward every single level predictably is more boring than getting different stuff at every level. When you got a skill point every level, it wasn’t special. It was something you got every level 75 times in a row. It’s very hard to look at a single skill point at level 63 and go YES! a skill point.

Even though it’s exactly the same, because you don’t get it every level it’s far more exciting to see seven skill points. This is basic, human psychology.

To people playing the game, it makes less difference than people starting new probably but it still makes a different for me. I see the new rewards and I get a bit of a boost from them. I never got that from the old rewards.

If that’s not your position, perhaps you shouldn’t be stating things that pretty much imply that it is your position.

My position is complex. Having to retype the same stuff in every thread gets tiring. I didn’t really feel it needed to be repeated here, I just gave the amount of information I felt was needed. I’m sure wouldn’t enjoy anyone telling you how to post, so I’d appreciate it if you not tell me how to post.

If clarification is required, people can always ask for it.

Can I get this post framed.. so let me run this back for clarity..

You don’t like writing stuff over and over in every thread.. maybe spend less time spreading the gospel in every thread and play more, then perhaps you will grow tired less

If it’s on topic or defending a point, sure I’ll do it. I didn’t feel it was the topic of this thread and I didn’t particularly feel it needed defending.

Haven’t you guys figured out yet that I wouldn’t even post again if you weren’t trying to disprove or dismiss what I said? lol

Vayne.. it was a light hearted poke to lighten the mood, but if you are going to comment on something like you did.. a la the 7 point skill reward etc (yes it was you that initiated that), then you surely would, could, should of expected some dialogue back on it.
As for it being off topic.. no sorry I disagree, the skill point(s) is the reward, the rest is fluff you make you feel special.

But hey in the interests of cuddles… lets all agree that everyone is right and everyone is wrong.. …

I know you were being light hearted, and I appreciate it. The OP was complaining about the salvage kit and I simply commented that there was other stuff to, in response to his post. I didn’t really feel I needed detail to say more than that, and I was happy to give it when asked.

My understanding of the OP’s complaint was that you get a salvage kit. So that’s on topic for me. Naturally we’re all right, and that’s that.

In my opinion dungeons are the best way to make money. There are lots of “little” ways to make money. If you farm foxfire clusters, you can make plant food every day, and that sells for between 2-3 gold. Gathering is always a decent source of incoming anyway. Platinum, Hard Wood, even Soft wood isn’t bad. And iron.

If you don’t like group play you can follow the world boss chain around and salvage or sale the rares (and maybe exotics you get). It’s another way to make some quickish money.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

PrinceWarhero.4256:

Vayne.8563:

Seven skill points, a booster and a salvage kit? Sounds like a decent reward to me.

previously we used to get 1 skill point per level. now its 7 skill point given at end of every 7th level !!! lame

Actually it’s not lame. It’s better. Because by the time you get to higher levels, 1 skill point does absolutely nothing. You probably all the one point skills you need long before that. When this game was designed skill point scrolls didn’t exist either.

There’s nothing lame about the decision.

So your position is that absolutely no one ever has any use for a number of skillpoints smaller than 7, and that’s why it’s better to just give out 7 at a time?

Not my position at all. My position as quoted in another thread is that getting the same reward every single level predictably is more boring than getting different stuff at every level. When you got a skill point every level, it wasn’t special. It was something you got every level 75 times in a row. It’s very hard to look at a single skill point at level 63 and go YES! a skill point.

Even though it’s exactly the same, because you don’t get it every level it’s far more exciting to see seven skill points. This is basic, human psychology.

To people playing the game, it makes less difference than people starting new probably but it still makes a different for me. I see the new rewards and I get a bit of a boost from them. I never got that from the old rewards.

If that’s not your position, perhaps you shouldn’t be stating things that pretty much imply that it is your position.

My position is complex. Having to retype the same stuff in every thread gets tiring. I didn’t really feel it needed to be repeated here, I just gave the amount of information I felt was needed. I’m sure wouldn’t enjoy anyone telling you how to post, so I’d appreciate it if you not tell me how to post.

If clarification is required, people can always ask for it.

Can I get this post framed.. so let me run this back for clarity..

You don’t like writing stuff over and over in every thread.. maybe spend less time spreading the gospel in every thread and play more, then perhaps you will grow tired less

If it’s on topic or defending a point, sure I’ll do it. I didn’t feel it was the topic of this thread and I didn’t particularly feel it needed defending.

Haven’t you guys figured out yet that I wouldn’t even post again if you weren’t trying to disprove or dismiss what I said? lol

MikaHR.1978:

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

And people won’t be talking about this for years. They’re be talking about it for weeks, maybe. Already most of the map chatter about it has died down.

That may be because most have already said their piece. Not everyone is compelled to repeat their position in every thread about a topic that they’ve already addressed. I stated my feelings about the NPE in one thread and it is far down on the forum. However, my opinions about the NPE have not changed.

The volume of complaints do mean something. And that a significant of the forum population expressed so much dissatisfaction should not be ignored.

Actually the volume of complaints on forums means absolutely nothing.

Most people did say their piece…before Anet made changes to the system in response to that piece. Most people didn’t say their piece after that.

Sure there are some people who don’t like it still, but even the one guy in my guild who walked away is back playing again since that change.

He’s definitely not a fan of it, but now he can live with it.

So yeah, those most enraged by it might still be enraged, but there are definitely those who have since accepted it.

innocens.1582:

Vayne.8563:

Is anyone here really arguing that AoC is more interesting than Guild Wars 2 is to more people?

I found aoc to be way more emerging then gw2 will ever be 8-)

Well there you go. I actually quite liked AoC. Too bad about the cash shop thing, though.

DaShi.1368:

I am. You are making claims about my beliefs and opinions and arguing against those made up claims.

All I ever asked you to do was to not speak for other people. Something you have asked of others. I then pointed out some factual definitions. Everything else is baggage that you carried. I made none of the statements you’ve claimed that I did and that you then ranted about. Perhaps an apology is in order?

DaShi: Seriously, you are one of the rudest posters I’ve encountered here.

You’re right. I think an apology is definitely in order. I would definite accept an apology if you made one. The funny bit is you attacking me personally, then trying to make me look bad, asking why I’m hostile. I’m not even being hostile. Bemused is a closer word. I won’t be answering any more of your posts, so do your worst.

DaShi.1368:

No does it change a word I said in my post. Since we are in agree, why are you being so hostile?

It’s a strawman argument for this reason.

I’m talking about going to another game’s forum and talking about a different game in that game’s forum. I feel that’s not really the right thing for me to do.

On the other hand, talking about Guild Wars 2 in this forum, even if I did tell someone I don’t feel it’s right for their need is different, because I’m talking about Guild Wars 2.

This forum is a forum to discuss Guild Wars 2 and that’s what I try to discuss here. So the examples aren’t congruent and so it’s a strawman.

DaShi.1368:

I wish you could communicate with me. Instead you just state what you want me to say and argue against that. You are currently having an argument with yourself, because I’ve made no statements related to your post that quotes me. Frankly, I don’t think you even read my post and just went on another rant.

It’s certainly clear you’re not reading my posts.

So let’s get this straight. Dev quotes over the years don’t mean anything, but your opinion does. Because they don’t have any way of measuring who does want content and you do. So noted.

People can make up their own mind if they believe you or devs. And I still wish an Anet dev would come and settle this once and for all, but I strongly suspect they won’t.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think it’s right that people do that either. I don’t go into one person’s store and tell people about another store. I wouldn’t do it in real life, so I don’t do it online.

Everyone has to choose their own behavior. I choose not to do it. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t. It just means I won’t.

But you have encouraged people to leave the game because you claimed it wasn’t for them.

Try to find those quotes. The only time I’ve EVER said that is when people say they want something this game obviously isn’t going to give them, like full on gear grind. The player base as a whole doesn’t want it, as evidenced by the huge fall out over ascended gear.

I may have, over the course of the last two years, said it twice, if that. I almost never tell people to look elsewhere. Unless, as I say, they really are looking for a different game and it’s obvious.

You go through what I say to people who don’t like the game. Usually, I’m giving them the upside of staying, not encouraging them to go. You’d have to go back pretty far to find me actually saying that if I’m not mistaken, because I generally don’t, and often tell others who do it not to.

What can I say? You already admitted I was correct.

Not really. Your implication is somehow that I do this broadly, as if it’s a habit of mine. I’m not even 100% sure I’ve ever done it, but I can see myself doing it under a very very specific set of circumstances. Doesn’t change a word that I said in the post you were responding to anyway.

Strawman argument remains a strawman.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Bel Geode.8129:

Nerelith.7360:

.

I played all of the AA beta tests. I kept coming back to Guild Wars 2 every night. Why?

Despite AA having all those things, the whole thing just did not “feel” the same to me.

Also… labor points. What kind of sadistic so and so comes up with that artificial restriction. If GW2 ever had something similar, I can honestly say i would be done.

The only thing on the list above that would make me smile for GW2 would be if player housing was implemented. The others I can gladly live without.

AA is Not for you. That is fine. Not every game has to be for every player. Not every game can please or satisfy every gamer.

To be honest, if AA becomes a Niche game with a dedicated following where the players that Play Know exactly what they are gonna get, have no delusions what the game is, and support it, I’ll be content.

See, this is how I feel about Guild Wars 2. Exactly how I feel.

I don’t care if this game has millions of players. Why? Because I don’t think millions of players share my play style.

I like the game as it is, so I’m happy to talk up Guild Wars 2. The one thing I won’t do, however, is talk up Guild Wars 2 on the Archeage forums.

And yet there are players that do Just that. Come to the Archeage forums. You will find that a LOT more players will talk up Gw2 over there, than players that talk up Archeage over here.

Funny how that works, but hey, I accept it’s part of " new MMO Launch" fever. Players that go there to play will post On the Archeage forums.." hey..Gw2 does THIS better." and Those of us that like Archeage will do it here,..although from what I have seen…a LOT more Politely.

This is what happens when a New MMO is launched… Everyone discusses it everywhere.

If you logged On WoW’s forums 9/10 chances are on page 1 you will fin a few threads labled." what do you think of Archeage?"

Sorry it bothers you, but..it’s part of our gamer culture.

I don’t think it’s right that people do that either. I don’t go into one person’s store and tell people about another store. I wouldn’t do it in real life, so I don’t do it online.

Everyone has to choose their own behavior. I choose not to do it. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t. It just means I won’t.

i would, and i have. my goal is to help people get what they want. IF the store they are in doesnt have it, i will tell them where does. If the store is overcharging i will say you can get the samething somewhere else. If the store i am in wants to get that customer, they need to do more than have a store, they need to give the customer something he wants.
You want people shopping at your store because they dont know any better? or because you give them what they want, in a way they enjoy.

point is if people are talking about another store, in your store, its because the other store is offering something you are not, or offering it better than you. You are actually probably better off to know your enemy (store) rather than not know. The customer who comes into your store and tells you, you know this other store has XYZ is probably more helpful than not.

Unless, your goal is that people stay in your store through ignorance, and your goal is to give them an inferior service/product.

but regardless, I dont own the store im just a person, and i will help the guy not finding something in Home Depot by telling him where its being sold, and i will tell home depot, hey you may want to consider X, people are asking for it.

On the other hand, I’ve had people in my store lie to other people, or express an opinion in a strong way that was completely, utterly 100% wrong, and people will believe it, because I’m a salesman and those guys aren’t.

So when a guy says to another guy in my store, you can get better deals for computers at Kmart, he neglects to tell them the difference between a propriety box and a PC clone built from better parts. You can get a cheaper machine at Kmart certainly, but it’s unlikely you can get a better one. But you know, everyone has an opinion.

People say all sorts of stuff that isn’t true. We saw a ton of that when the NPE came out. We’ve seen people say everything from stuff is locked to do you don’t get as many skill points when leveling, both of which are untrue.

But you know, no one wants to listen to a “white knight” who’s saying, at least let’s test it before jumping to conclusions. They’d rather be part of the mob.

Anyway, it’s all irrelevant. People do what they do. It’s not like anyone is going to stop them.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think it’s right that people do that either. I don’t go into one person’s store and tell people about another store. I wouldn’t do it in real life, so I don’t do it online.

Everyone has to choose their own behavior. I choose not to do it. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t. It just means I won’t.

But you have encouraged people to leave the game because you claimed it wasn’t for them.

Try to find those quotes. The only time I’ve EVER said that is when people say they want something this game obviously isn’t going to give them, like full on gear grind. The player base as a whole doesn’t want it, as evidenced by the huge fall out over ascended gear.

I may have, over the course of the last two years, said it twice, if that. I almost never tell people to look elsewhere. Unless, as I say, they really are looking for a different game and it’s obvious.

You go through what I say to people who don’t like the game. Usually, I’m giving them the upside of staying, not encouraging them to go. You’d have to go back pretty far to find me actually saying that if I’m not mistaken, because I generally don’t, and often tell others who do it not to.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

you dont have to complete content for people to enjoy it. Most underworld runs were not for completion, it was super long, and 1 mistake could end it, thats why having mini objectives were good.
The same with DOA, you could do every path seperate, or only the path you wanted to.

also, how many people did raids in lotro, has little to do with how many people did elite instances in gw2.

there is a substantial difference in accessibility with content that requires 12 people, and content that requires 1 or 2 people.
yes i duo ed domain of anguish with my friend and his heroes,
yes i trio ed underworld without henches with trappers and 55 monks, and a weird necro cannot die build i made
point is, the bikitteniment to people attempting raids, isnt the word raids or even the difficulty, its that it requires organizing with some generally large number of people.

now im not saying dungeons is the only form endgame can take, but i dont think that the principle you have, that instanced content serves no purpose is false.

Let me rephrase then. Most people who tried it and died quickly, had that bad first experience, never went back, because in a nutshell, that’s people. People don’t like to die and fail. The amount of resilient people that keep banging their heads against stuff is always going to be a minority and that’s not only true in games. That’s true throughout life.

That’s human nature. A few self-starters. Leaders. Resilient people. People with vision. And a bunch of people sitting on the couch, eating potato chips, watching American Idol and Big Brother.

On the forums, we are the minority. In the game we’re the minority. This is my opinion, but it’s backed up by a whole lot of stuff I’ve seen and heard, over a whole lot of years. It’s not just my opinion…it’s my experience.

Please speak for yourself. Every time you start a sentence with the word ‘People,’ stop, think about what you are doing, and delete the post. You’ve complained before about naysayers speaking for the “majority,” but I frequently see you making the same argument in to support your preferences.

Not my preferences mate. You get me wrong. I’ll play all content, including challenging content. I have no problem doing challenging content.

But from years of being in this industry, I’ve seen devs say time and again that most players are casual. And most casuals don’t love the harder stuff.

Yes, I said most because I have evidence of at least some devs saying that. It’s accumulated over the years. Scott Hartsman, Ghost Crawler, even some of the Guild Wars 1 devs.

So what you call opinion, in this case, I’d call an educated guess. I’ve never once, ever, in the long time I’ve been involved with games, ever hear a dev say most people want challenging content, nor I have ever seen a dev say most people raid. But I have seen devs say otherwise. That means there’s evidence for my “opinion” in this.

Anyone can look at the MMO industry and see that it’s continually being dumbed down. WoW vanilla was more challenging than WoW now. EQ was more challenging than WoW. The level of challenge people are willing to accept is going down, testified to by the number of games that nerf content for the masses.

Do you really think if everyone was doing that content, that content would be nerfed?

Hard core games like Eve are niche MMOs. Hard core games like Wildstar are losing ground before they got off the ground. We’ll see how Archeage does, but I don’t expect it to do much better.

If you really think the target audience is this game is the hard core crowd and Anet is just ignoring them because they don’t like majorities…well you’re entitled to that opinion.

But you know, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. My style of play is NOT the majority. The stuff I like will never BE the majority.

Show me one dev quote anywhere from any game that shows that most people or even a significant number of people like hard raids or the hardest content. I’ll wait here.

I love the idea of climbing. Not sure how hard it would be to implement.

The other ideas have been suggested on these forums many, many, many times.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

you dont have to complete content for people to enjoy it. Most underworld runs were not for completion, it was super long, and 1 mistake could end it, thats why having mini objectives were good.
The same with DOA, you could do every path seperate, or only the path you wanted to.

also, how many people did raids in lotro, has little to do with how many people did elite instances in gw2.

there is a substantial difference in accessibility with content that requires 12 people, and content that requires 1 or 2 people.
yes i duo ed domain of anguish with my friend and his heroes,
yes i trio ed underworld without henches with trappers and 55 monks, and a weird necro cannot die build i made
point is, the bikitteniment to people attempting raids, isnt the word raids or even the difficulty, its that it requires organizing with some generally large number of people.

now im not saying dungeons is the only form endgame can take, but i dont think that the principle you have, that instanced content serves no purpose is false.

Let me rephrase then. Most people who tried it and died quickly, had that bad first experience, never went back, because in a nutshell, that’s people. People don’t like to die and fail. The amount of resilient people that keep banging their heads against stuff is always going to be a minority and that’s not only true in games. That’s true throughout life.

That’s human nature. A few self-starters. Leaders. Resilient people. People with vision. And a bunch of people sitting on the couch, eating potato chips, watching American Idol and Big Brother.

On the forums, we are the minority. In the game we’re the minority. This is my opinion, but it’s backed up by a whole lot of stuff I’ve seen and heard, over a whole lot of years. It’s not just my opinion…it’s my experience.