Guild Wars 2

Lexander.4579:

looks like their oldest game makes about as much money as all the games released after it together

Lineage breaks all the rules. It’s been called the WoW of Korea. It failed in the West but it’s so popular in Korea that it just keeps making money, much like WoW keeps making money. People have invested so much money into it over the years, they’re not likely to stop playing without kitten ed good reason.

Ashen.2907:

I am not at all fond of the trend of locking content behind gambling in computer games.

While I agree that I don’t like the idea of locking content behind gambling, I wouldn’t consider skins content. Content usually refers to something you play rather than something you wear. But I don’t like RNG glider skins, or weapons skins either. At least with the black lion skins you can buy them on the TP. The glider is just annoying. Glad I don’t like it that much.

Hypairion.9210:

Here’s the problem with that thinking. Raids aren’t any more difficult than getting to 100 in fractals or mastering the ranks of pvp. Being successful in raids comes down to copying builds off of a website and being lucky/diligent enough to find a group that wants to grind out raids week in and week out.

They are about math, luck and being willing to stepford wife your build and playstyle to the point where everyone in the game will eventually be the exact same (from playstyle and builds all the way through to how we all look with the introduction of a single set of legendary armor).

I know that sounds harsh and a little jaded, but it is the reality of what raids are in GW2 (and that is in no way meant to demean raiders – its Anet’s approach to raid design that is the issue).

So, with that in mind, I say legendary armor (even weapons imo) should reflect a dedication to the entire game, not just to grinding the math and “everyone be a clone now” gamestyle that is raids in GW2.

Nice to know that raid are easy, so there is no problem having legendary armor behind them. After all, there are plenty of rewards behind specific mode game.

The whole argument behind locking that reward behind specific content is that raids are supposed to be hard, thus that best stuff is locked behind them. If they’re truly easy, if the difficulty in them is finding a group of ten people that are all interested and dedicated, well, then that’s an issue for me.

Either they’re hard, in which case, some people will not be able to do them, or they’re easy in which case they don’t deserve a specific reward.

People can’t have it both ways.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Anet can howerever create very good RAID boss fights. I love almost all of them so far!

That’s why the next elder dragon’s final encounter should be a raid wing instead of a story instance!

Sure if you want to lose half the game in protest, that’s what they should do.

How can people who enjoy raiding consistently realize that some people really don’t want to get 10 people together to finish their story? This is a really bad idea from a business perspective, no matter how much you’d like it.

It’s hard to finish HoT with tons of bugs even if you have a full group.

I have experienced a couple of bugs in that story. However, I’ve finished the story upwards of 30 times. Those who say you can’t finish it because of bugs are doing something differently than me and my guild. I’m not sure what, or why, but we all seem to be finishing it easily enough.

If you don’t believe me I’d be happy to run it with you.

Don’t know where you’re farming them, but I had a similar problem until I started farming them by the entrance to the golem hit point in AB. There’s a bunch of them there, mostly veterans, so bring a couple of friends. Changing to that place worked for me.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Anet can howerever create very good RAID boss fights. I love almost all of them so far!

That’s why the next elder dragon’s final encounter should be a raid wing instead of a story instance!

Sure if you want to lose half the game in protest, that’s what they should do.

How can people who enjoy raiding consistently realize that some people really don’t want to get 10 people together to finish their story? This is a really bad idea from a business perspective, no matter how much you’d like it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I have a different observation about the guaranteed wardrobe unlock. It in no way is going to make me want to get keys. Since I have a preference for knowing what I’m buying, the idea of using a key to maybe get an unlock item, from which I’d maybe get something I want has zero appeal. Honestly, I think the unlock is primarily aimed at collection completionists. No matter what, you unlock something you don’t have.

As to the OP’s issue, while I don’t share it, I can understand it. If, as it seems, there must be RNG, at least have a more complete list of possibilities.

I’m the opposite. Having filled in just about every single thing I can easily fill in from playing, high end stuff is pretty much all I have left. I’d be more likely to buy keys knowing there’s a chance I fill in stuff I don’t have, because it mostly all costs more now than any amount I’d spend on keys.

See and this is the problem. I thought the Shiro encounter was pretty much a joke, and that the other boss encounters were okay. But as pointed out the next to last mission in each of the games was harder than the last mission. Why?

Because the last mission was something you had to redo if you wanted to get to the vendors after it. Wanted to train a pet phoenix, had to beat the last mission of nightfall. Wanted to get a green serpent staff, had to finish the last mission of Nightfall.

They made the last missions shorter/easier for convenience. You still had to get past the missions before that that were harder to win.

It doesn’t indicate Anet can’t make a boss (since indeed they had good dungeon bosses). They may have other reason to make bosses easier or harder than you’re apparently not looking at.

Doggie.3184:

I just opened one and got a tome of knowledge and a teleport to friend. That actually progresses my account backwards. :| I’m already drowning in tomes. Not very vet friendly.

I can never have enough teleports to a friend. They’re particularly useful to vets like me.

This is (and has been) one of my biggest issues with Guild Wars 2 since launch. How can you not tell people when events are going to end? How hard can this be? Why should we always be left guessing?

Some people want to budget their time and do things over the longer haul and I’m one of them. This year I rushed through the achievements because I had no real idea how long it was going on. If it goes for another week now I’ll be annoyed because I could have done them at my preferred rate.

This is something that should never happen. We should have a definite ending date on limited time content and achievements. And furthermore we should have access to that information in game.

Wanze.8410:

I doubt that they would design guild halls in the old maps, considering you need HoT for them….

This. I think guild halls will most likely come with expansions, rather than between them. So we’ve likely seen all the HoT guild Halls we’re likely to see. When the next expansion comes there’ll likely be a guild hall themed after whatever it is.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know. I think having more bosses with mechanics doesn’t necessarily make the game more interesting for me at all, or even more challenging once you know those mechanics.

So you prefer bosses that are giant sacks of hit points that do nothing?

To me it always breaks my immersion.

And fighting giant sacks of hit points isn’t breaking your immersion?

What’s next? Turn all bosses into giant Ore nodes that you go and press F and watch a bar go down then grab the loot and move on?

Actually I don’t prefer bosses at all, I prefer big pitched battles. I prefer events like defending camps at night in VB. Lots of enemies. I’m still dodging plenty. Still have to think to fight and stay alive. Still got guys running through trying to knock me over on mounts. Still have to remove conditions. Still have to deal with attacks from snipers, plenty of action, but no bosses.

You can not like bosses altogether and still enjoy challenge. Bosses are one type of challenge.

To be fair there are some bosses I do like, like the last boss in the Thermnova Reactor Fractal.

Yes but we do have bosses so the point is how to make those better. A boss with mechanics is better than a sack of hit points.

Or more annoying, depending on the mechanics and your opinion.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know. I think having more bosses with mechanics doesn’t necessarily make the game more interesting for me at all, or even more challenging once you know those mechanics.

So you prefer bosses that are giant sacks of hit points that do nothing?

To me it always breaks my immersion.

And fighting giant sacks of hit points isn’t breaking your immersion?

What’s next? Turn all bosses into giant Ore nodes that you go and press F and watch a bar go down then grab the loot and move on?

Actually I don’t prefer bosses at all, I prefer big pitched battles. I prefer events like defending camps at night in VB. Lots of enemies. I’m still dodging plenty. Still have to think to fight and stay alive. Still got guys running through trying to knock me over on mounts. Still have to remove conditions. Still have to deal with attacks from snipers, plenty of action, but no bosses.

You can not like bosses altogether and still enjoy challenge. Bosses are one type of challenge.

To be fair there are some bosses I do like, like the last boss in the Thermnova Reactor Fractal.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

We’ll find out. I see lots of people every day in Ember Bay. I saw lots of people farming the labyrinth too and that’s hardly rocket science. I see ten, twelve or more labyrinth groups at all time, many of the skipping the hard bosses.

I have a very hard time believing those in the lab groups are there because they find the lab more fun than anything else in the game. Otherwise those lucky ones with a second monitor wouldn’t be using it to do other things with it, while “playing”.

Some people really don’t care about difficult content. In fact, I’d wager it’s a majority. I like some difficult content, but I don’t think I prefer difficult content all the time.

There are many tiers of difficulty. Was HoT too difficult? Maybe.
Can’t there be something that is easier than HoT but isn’t only about pressing one on the keyboard like Ember Bay bosses, SW chest farming or the Lab?
There must be a middle ground between “too hard” and “too easy”.

Yep, I agree with you. Toward than end, I don’t think Ember Bay is quite as easy as you think…from your point of view it’s easy. People die in Ember Bay. Particularly in the area by the Jades, but in other places as well. It’s relatively easy to get overwhelmed there if you’re not careful.

It’s not like the Queendale Champ train.

Yes, the Jade Armors/Bows near the Mursaat Fortress and the Saurians near the Circus are challenging places. But they are a tiny part of the zone. I wrote about this on the feedback thread for Ember Bay, but I will re-post here:

When I say Ember Bay is easy I’m mostly talking about the Bosses who are just giant sacks of HP with no mechanics at all, the Wurm, the Sloth Queen and the Broodmother are prime examples of badly designed bosses.

The Dominator has some mechanics and is a boss that could work well, but he dies way too fast, probably has bugged scaling or something. The Sloth might be similar (dies too fast but has mechanics) but I’ve never seen any mechanics from that one so I just put sloth on “sack of hit points” status.

And then we have the jade boss which has a high scaling at the rock phase which requires the non-semi-afk players to throw lots of rock to break his barrier, because everyone else is just hitting 1 without paying attention.

The karka queen is the only boss of EB that is not badly designed.

Aside from the bosses the other thing that is absolutely horrible are the new destroyers. They are just green reskins that deal less damage than the previous destroyers but apply some random conditions that barely last above 2 seconds. They also die instantly.

The only “hard” part about the new destroyers is their numbers, but you need to engage 3 or 4 of them at once (And not have aoe skills) to actually have a chance of using your healing skill. They are just pathetic, and as the “new” foe introduced as the new and “improved” minions of Primordus they should’ve been at least at Mordrem level.

Maybe in the next Fire Island zone we’ll fight some actual Destroyers and these were just some super weak scouts.

I don’t know. I think having more bosses with mechanics doesn’t necessarily make the game more interesting for me at all, or even more challenging once you know those mechanics.

Lupi has a lot of mechanics but I never enjoyed doing him, even though I can do him easily now. I don’t find that fun. It’s not why I play this game or any game.

Your idea that making bosses have more mechanics will make the game more fun is just an opinion and I’m not 100% sure it’s an opinion everyone would share. In fact, I’m not really a boss centric player at all. They’re there, I kill them but I don’t go out of my way.

I prefer larger pitched battles with lots of foes. I like the escort part of Dragon Stand more than the boss fight at the end, or any boss fight along the way.

Making bosses more complex is fine, if you like that sort of thing. To me it always breaks my immersion. Take the giant. It’s just like a mini game. He has a stomp that does a large AOE that you have to dodge. He does a fist to the ground. He does fear. It’s still doable if you’re paying attention. None of that makes the game more fun for me though. It’s just a repetition of doing the same thing over and over until you kill him. Not sure how that’s more fun than pressing 1 and killing him, particularly because doing the same except move set over and over really does break my immersion.

I’m not a hero running around killing stuff. I’m a guy who’s focused more on mechanics than being “in the world”.

MashMash.1645:

Vayne.8563:

If every casual left this game there would be no game.

Correct. Causal players finance this game. Without them, everyone else would have to go and find another game to play.

The game is becoming….. hmmmmm, well, it’s taking on more and more of the ‘traditional’ trappings of MMO’s you could say.

It’s curious how many of the high and mighty idea’s they had for this game are being, and indeed have been, tossed aside (because they failed I presume), and in are being ushered the old tried and true (but also old, boring and tedious) idea’s.

Raids, more and more restrictive class roles (certain classes only for certain roles – seen that before, and presume it will continue / get worse), that famous horizontal progression is quickly disappearing, etc.

It’s really just ever so steadily becoming like every other MMO. It’s becoming less and less unique, you could say.

But I guess unique doesn’t doesn’t pay devs, CEO’s and bankroll expansions, huh? But what do we know. I mean we are just players and payers, right?

Oh well.

I don’t agree with this assessment at all, actually. I play Heart of Thorns and the new zones the same way I played every zone before it. I don’t run meta builds. I don’t care about efficiency particularly. I just want to get through content…and I do. Solo often as well.

While the level of difficulty has risen, I can still ignore raids. They’re still a small part of the game. I don’t love rewards being locked behind them, but there were always parts of the game I largely ignored, like PvP.

Raids hasn’t fundamentally changed the game for me, because I don’t raid and there’s still plenty for me to do.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

We’ll find out. I see lots of people every day in Ember Bay. I saw lots of people farming the labyrinth too and that’s hardly rocket science. I see ten, twelve or more labyrinth groups at all time, many of the skipping the hard bosses.

I have a very hard time believing those in the lab groups are there because they find the lab more fun than anything else in the game. Otherwise those lucky ones with a second monitor wouldn’t be using it to do other things with it, while “playing”.

Some people really don’t care about difficult content. In fact, I’d wager it’s a majority. I like some difficult content, but I don’t think I prefer difficult content all the time.

There are many tiers of difficulty. Was HoT too difficult? Maybe.
Can’t there be something that is easier than HoT but isn’t only about pressing one on the keyboard like Ember Bay bosses, SW chest farming or the Lab?
There must be a middle ground between “too hard” and “too easy”.

Yep, I agree with you. Toward that end, I don’t think Ember Bay is quite as easy as you think…from your point of view it’s easy. People die in Ember Bay. Particularly in the area by the Jades, but in other places as well. It’s relatively easy to get overwhelmed there if you’re not careful.

It’s not like the Queendale Champ train.

AliamRationem.5172:

With a few simple strategies the projectiles and random deaths while gliding can be easily avoided.

Your best defense by far is to trait a passive stun break. When struck by a projectile that would normally send you falling to your death, you’ll completely ignore it and keep gliding.

Your next defense is glider skill 5. You evade for the entire animation and it covers you with stability for a short time as well. It also greatly increases your flight speed, allowing you to quickly get out of range of new projectiles. IMPORTANT: You can extend the range of this skill by holding down the button!

Finally, you have the stealth mastery option. This is less useful because it doesn’t prevent projectiles in flight from tracking and striking you. However, you can use it to cover yourself when entering projectile range or following glider 5 to cover the cooldown if needed.

Try these strategies out. You should find projectiles are no longer an issue in BF.

I agree with you on everything but stealth. Seems to me a lot of mobs in Bloodstone Fen ignore stealth. I’ve tested it a few time and I’ve been hit while stealthed.

Tekey.7946:

Vayne.8563:

If every casual left this game there would be no game. That’s my opinion but it’s pretty common knowledge in the industry that the bulk of players are not hard core, which is why stuff keeps getting dumbed down. It’s not because there are zillions of hard core players.

When you divide the smaller number of hard core players up there are even less in any game. More likely hard core players will go to games that already have more challenging content.

Alienating the casual base which for 3 years has been Anet’s bread and butter will actually hurt the game far more than alienating the hard core crowd.

The idea is to throw the minority a bone while still appeasing the bulk of the playerbase. I’m pretty sure the bulk of this playerbase is casual.

I just edited my last post, but unfortunately you already responded to the old post, however, lets just continue:

If they really want to know how many players think that HoT is too hard right now, they have to ask them again. Many of those who complained about it at release got used to the difficulty by now. It just takes some time.

I think we’re talking about 2 different types of groups, one group being the new players, the other one casual players.

A casual player that played since release could be perfectly fine with the difficulty of HoT. It’s been the huge amount of time they had to invest to gather the xp for your masteries e.g. the casual players complained about. They didn’t have enough time to invest. That doesn’t mean that they don’t want to have challenging content!

The newer players are actually rather the group complaining about the difficulty, but then I’d just suggest to play through the zones chronologically, beginning with Orr, Living World Season 2, and then HoT and Season 3. You shouldn’t boost your character to lvl 80 and jump into HoT without knowing how to play.

In the end, we’ll see their decision by the release of the next maps. If the continue releasing easy maps for new players, at least I know that I’m not part of the group they care about then. But as you said I’m just going to look for a new game with more challenging content in general.

The sad thing about it is that I’ve been a fan of Guild Wars since Prophecies.

I consider myself a hard core casual. I played Guild Wars 1 for 15,000 hours over 6 years and had a great time, but I only did DOA once, and FOW a couple of times. I did the Deep and Urgoz’s Warren once. I did Slaver’s Exile once and never in hard mode. I barely PvPed at all.

So you know, I don’t need everything to be dirt easy but I don’t like really difficult content either.

As for the initial complaint about the game being not complex enough, while I did like the build complexity of Guild Wars 1, I know too many people that couldn’t care about making builds at all. They didn’t theory craft. Some didn’t even want to go to PvX wiki and get a build. They just wanted to play the game and kill stuff and see the story.

Guild Wars 2 was a direct result of Anet understanding what held Guild Wars 1 back in terms of over-all sales, and popularity. At the end of the day, I’m pretty sure more people play this game than played Guild Wars 1 for longer periods of time. There’s a reason for that.

Making the game more complex and difficult does appeal to a certain percentage of the playerbase. Making the game easier appeals to a different percentage. But most of us are somewhere in the middle.

I like some difficult content but I don’t love it and I won’t keep doing it. I like content that I find challenging but I don’t have to necessarily group up with people to do, most of the time. I liked Guild Wars 1 because I liked running Bog Root growths or Bloodstone Caves, or vanquishing with heroes, even though I still ran some content with my guild.

I don’t like having to get ten people together for a raid though, or be part of any group that insists on specific builds. Remember in Guild Wars 1, when you went to TOA and you had to have iway, or sabway, or you went somewhere else and had to be a rank 8 ursan?

Sorry that’s not a game I want to play.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

The idea is to throw the minority a bone while still appeasing the bulk of the playerbase. I’m pretty sure the bulk of this playerbase is casual.

Thinking that all the playerbase of this game wants is pressing 1 and grabbing the rewards just makes me sad, always while watching a movie or a tv show on their second monitor. That’s not “gaming” at all.

Casual player doesn’t equal someone who wants to farm while watching something on their second monitor. Making farms and zones that promote just that isn’t healthy for the game.

In the end, we’ll see their decision by the release of the next maps.

I doubt the next maps will be Ember Bay-difficulty. They should’ve learned their lesson by now.

We’ll find out. I see lots of people every day in Ember Bay. I saw lots of people farming the labyrinth too and that’s hardly rocket science. I see ten, twelve or more labyrinth groups at all time, many of the skipping the hard bosses.

Some people really don’t care about difficult content. In fact, I’d wager it’s a majority. I like some difficult content, but I don’t think I prefer difficult content all the time.

HOT was awesome for me, because there was very little open world difficult content before it. But when Ember Bay came out, I was ready for a break and I was happy to have a zone that wasn’t so difficult. So not even everyone that likes difficult content wants it all the time anyway.

Tekey.7946:

Seera.5916:

Tekey.7946:

Crinn.7864:

Cristalyan.5728:

I think that Legendary Armor being tied with the Raids is a skillful example of players manipulation from ANet’s part.

The main issue here is not why the Armor is tied with something, but Why after one year from the launch the promised Armor is not ingame?

Or we could take off the tinfoil and realize that the delay is likely caused by Anet having to divert resources into developing Living World content in addition to whatever early development they are doing on the next expac.

So the thing that should have been ready for the last expansion is delayed because now they need the resources for the next expansion? Sounds funny

Only a minority of players want legendary weapons. Most players want new content to play.

Living Story adds new content.

When ANet realized that they may end up losing more players by not shifting focus to the Living Story than they would keep by focusing on the legendary weapons, they changed gears.

They had to choose between two evils. Neither choice was a good one. So they had to choose the one that impacted the game negatively the least.

There’s been 9 months from Living World season 2 to HoT. After that, there’s been another 9 months from HoT to the start of Living World Season 3.

They are still working on the content of HoT, yet they started working on the next expansion and that should justify that parts of HoT are delayed again? They knew that HoT contains the next season of the Living World, but apparently they didn’t plan ahead.

Doesn’t look good if you think of the next expansions.. I know, there’s a dedicated expansion team now, but Anet is constantly working at full capacity – yet that’s not enough to reach their goals.

Maybe because they keep losing key people to Amazon who’s just down the block from them and can afford to pay more? I wouldn’t want to be in Anet’s shoes as a business.

The list of high level people hired away by Amazon is pretty amazing. Those people have to be replaced and new people have to be hired and trained. They have to learn the code. It all takes time, unfortunately.

Amazon announced 3 games that they’re making simultaneously, mostly centered around interfacing with twitch. I have no idea how good they’ll be, but to think that doesn’t have an impact of schedules and production time isn’t really realistic.

Sure as a fan that doesn’t really matter. It’s part of the reality of trying to run a game company. By the same token, it’s gotten make everything take longer, no matter what your original plans had been.

Tekey.7946:

Vayne.8563:

Tekey.7946:

AliamRationem.5172:

Perhaps. But it’s also possible that they could design some maps to be easier than others and appeal to a broader base.

I’m not happy about Ember Bay providing no challenge at all, it’s a step backwards from HoT. The maps should contain some sort of progress in difficulty as you play through the story – newly added maps should be challenging and harder than the old core-Tyria maps. It’s been like that since the release of Dry Top and Silverwastes, then HoT – and now we’re going back to easy? They have to take it to the next level – at least to the same level as HoT!

Furthermore, you could assume that players who arrived in Ember Bay already played through the previous Living World/HoT story. Not only they’re getting better and better as they’re playing, but they’re also getting used to the difficulty of HoT. Plus they’re likely making use of the new elite specializations. Seeing Ember Bay after that feels like a joke.

You said they could make maps some easier than others. How does that work? Does one part of the Fire Islands contain some weak kitten destroyers whereas they’re 10 times harder on the next island? You can’t please everyone. Anet tries to do so – but in the end no one will be satisfied. If they continue releasing ridiculously easy maps, I’ll be the one leaving.

And what about all the people who find HoT too challenging, or too stressful? Should they be ignored?

It’s okay to provide zones for a variety of play styles. If Anet doesn’t they’ll lose too many players and no one will have any new zones to play in.

Apparently you didn’t read anything I wrote, I’ll highlight it in the quote.

How does that work?
Ember Bay is easy, casuals are happy, advanced players are bored as hell. The next map is 10 times harder, advanced players are happy – casuals will complain they can’t follow the story and play the game because the map is too hard? With that, you’ll please no one. It’s neither fish nor fowl, and everyone’s disappointed, so in the end both of those groups will say: Screw it, I’m leaving.

As a game progresses, it gets harder and more challenging.
GW2 can stay casual in Core Tyria – we’re talking about the post-expansion content, people who are in Ember Bay played through HoT – in your words: should they ignore all the players who find the Core Tyria maps kitten boring? Compare the amount of easy maps to harder maps – if they get back to easy now, players will leave, too.

GW2-Anet has to decide now.

If every casual left this game there would be no game. That’s my opinion but it’s pretty common knowledge in the industry that the bulk of players are not hard core, which is why stuff keeps getting dumbed down. It’s not because there are zillions of hard core players.

When you divide the smaller number of hard core players up there are even less in any game. More likely hard core players will go to games that already have more challenging content.

Alienating the casual base which for 3 years has been Anet’s bread and butter will actually hurt the game far more than alienating the hard core crowd.

The idea is to throw the minority a bone while still appeasing the bulk of the playerbase. I’m pretty sure the bulk of this playerbase is casual.

Tekey.7946:

AliamRationem.5172:

Perhaps. But it’s also possible that they could design some maps to be easier than others and appeal to a broader base.

I’m not happy about Ember Bay providing no challenge at all, it’s a step backwards from HoT. The maps should contain some sort of progress in difficulty as you play through the story – newly added maps should be challenging and harder than the old core-Tyria maps. It’s been like that since the release of Dry Top and Silverwastes, then HoT – and now we’re going back to easy? They have to take it to the next level – at least to the same level as HoT!

Furthermore, you could assume that players who arrived in Ember Bay already played through the previous Living World/HoT story. Not only they’re getting better and better as they’re playing, but they’re also getting used to the difficulty of HoT. Plus they’re likely making use of the new elite specializations. Seeing Ember Bay after that feels like a joke.

You said they could make maps some easier than others. How does that work? Does one part of the Fire Islands contain some weak kitten destroyers whereas they’re 10 times harder on the next island? You can’t please everyone. Anet tries to do so – but in the end no one will be satisfied. If they continue releasing ridiculously easy maps, I’ll be the one leaving.

And what about all the people who find HoT too challenging, or too stressful? Should they be ignored?

It’s okay to provide zones for a variety of play styles. If Anet doesn’t they’ll lose too many players and no one will have any new zones to play in.

LoL NooBs.5076:

Dear voters. You get scammed by one company, move to another, maybe feel a slightly better treatment. You think a product (or a presidential candidate) being not as bad as another instantly makes it good? Have you considered you went too far in accepting getting screwed over as the industry standard? Could it be you are just too proud to admit you were had too many times, and thus feel the personal urge to overly distinguish your experiences by simplistically assigning them completely binary values, even when they may differ only slightly? And then recommend to other people, based on that? I’m not saying that’s the case, but I’m curious if you ask yourselves these things.

And Ashen, if you come back at me, could we please keep your Chevy out of it this time? Meanwhile, I will take your advice and never pay for HoT. I paid too much for core GW2 and look where that got me.

You’re absolutely right of course. The MMO industry is digusting in general and Guild Wars 2 is among the best MMOs when it comes to how it supports itself.

I think everyone has the right to stop playing MMOs altogether because the industry sucks. However, best practice is best practice and not acknowledging the best practice for what it is is misleading in and of itself.

Anet has done some sketchy things from time to time (some of which they reverted), but they’re still a company, out to make money, and they’re still going to push the envelope.

That said, we’re still comparing MMORPGs to MMORPGs because that’s a valid way to decide which MMO is better or best in terms of how they conduct business.

Saying that the expansion is too expensive for what you get, comparing it to expansions from companies that have subscriptions is simply a bad comparison. Because you’re paying for those subs even if no new content is released and over the price of your continued participation in that game is higher, even if it doesn’t look higher.

At the end of the day, there’s still value in discussing what’s best practice, or what the better direction is.

DoctorDing.5890:

IndigoSundown.5419:

In the original GW game, many popular builds involved mix/match choices to take advantage of such synergies. That made that game, by dev admission, problematic to balance.

And yet, loads more fun for the players.

My main is an ele and, for me, an ele needs to use a staff. I can’t get very excited about an ele with a war horn so I end up with the same ol’, same ol’ skills.

Careful about talking about what’s more fun for “the players”. I loved the build system in Guild Wars 1, but over the years I met many players frustrated by it. People who didn’t enjoy builds, and just wanted to load up and play a game. Some of my friends didn’t get into Guild Wars 1 particularly because of the complexity of the build system.

Others went to PVX wiki to get a build. Many people used to ask for builds in map chat rather than try to think of one for themselves. Surely you remember people asking anyone got a build for a ranger?

Then there were people like me who wanted to use our own builds who tried to pug underworld or DOA and couldn’t get into groups because we weren’t using I-way or we weren’t using sabway or we didn’t have a rank 8 ursan.

There were certainly advantages to the build system in Guild Wars 1 for some players, but I wouldn’t assume the build system was universally adored.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It’s not whether or not players should be challenged. It’s about the skill level of the average player and whether or not the average player can clear raids. If the average player couldn’t handle the HoT maps and those maps had to be nerfed to accommodate their skill level then the average player is not going to be able to do the hardest content in the game.

While there were certainly complaints about HoT map difficulty, it remains to be seen whether those posters were average players or not. Also, at least in the April changes, the nerfs consisted of reductions to certain heavy hits by some Champion mobs and a bit less mob density in some non-event areas, not blanket nerfs to HoT mobs.

What might be more telling is whether BF/EB mob armies are harder or easier. I’ve seen a few comments that they’re easier, but not the consistent complaints of “faceroll” that dogged core. I’ve also not seen lots of complaints that they’re hard, either. Maybe ANet is finding a sweet spot in open zones. Regardless, raids are meant to be harder content.

Fwiw, while I put no value on changeable stats for myself, I can see where some would. I think ANet was remiss to put LA in raids only, though the raid LA skin should remain exclusive. I don’t think raids should be more accessible, any more than high tier PvP should be. If non raiders have to wait until ANet gets around to making a different type/method f or LA, then they have to wait. It’s not like we all haven’t waited a long time for various stuff we’ve wanted ANet to produce before.

You’re right in some particulars but you missed some others. There were nerfs prior to the April patch particularly to hero points. Some hero points were turned from champs to vets, some were turned to communes.

In addition to that, some events in the April patch were added that didn’t exist before, like a multitude of veteran vine wraths, where most people could do them. Also wandering champs like the champ troll in VB and the champ terragriff became Vets in the April patch, which went from we need a huge group to anyone with a modicum of skill could solo this.

Anet made a number of small changes that overall made everything feel easier.

Cristalyan.5728:

TexZero.7910

You’ve just chosen willingly or otherwise not to do this content. Unless you’re somehow saying the common player is too inept to do basic problem solving or moving or listening, or heck just putting finger to keyboard in general.

Well, according to ANet statements, the raids are not for the common player. The raids are designed for only a small portion of the community. Don’t forget this not only a single second. If you can do raids that does not mean everybody can do it.

As a side note.
HoT failed to deliver almost everything it advertises before sale: A full set of legendary weapons – failed. Raids – well, after one year from launch we still wait for the raid to be completed – another failure. Legendary Armors in HoT !! Buy it for Legendary Armors!! After one year we have rumors that maybe in less than 6 months we will have the armors – another failure until now. The examples can continue.

And now the funny part comes: By speaking again and again about the ANet statement that raids are designed to be completed by only a small portion of the community, in fact I defend here the only aspect where HoT meets the declarations :-)). I defend it against the rants of some players stating that the raids are so easy that everybody can complete one. Or 150. If this vocal minority is right, that means the only aspect of HoT respecting the initial promises is a failure too. Turning HoT in a 100% failure.

I’m a little bit worried – I don’t want a White Knight label because of my efforts (only in this debate) to defend HoT.

Actually the examples can’t continue. The list of what it said it provided and provided is far longer than the list of what it doesn’t provide.

It promised one raid wing and that one raid wing was delivered. Legendary Weapons (the full set) and armor it has not delivered on, but it did deliver the mastery system, 9 specializations, a new profession, two guild halls, and the living story has started again. It also gave us new zones, new story and new metas.

Saying it didn’t deliver all of what it promised it true. But it certainly did deliver most of what it promised.

As for raids, it delivered what was promised and those raids were well received.

I just wish Anet would actually tell us how many people by percentage actually raid.

Anka.5086:

@Vayne

I apologise for using that word and for some of the inconsiderate things I said. You’re right, this game did change significantly since HoT. Some would say for better, I’m in that group. I suppose ANET should have thought more about casual players like yourself when they designed HoT content. Since in the very beginning their market strategy was to appeal to more casual MMO players. And raid content does require lot of time and effort in the beginning for players to attain necessary experience before they can start doing raids under 2-3hrs. I hope they will soon design a separate Lege armor that’s not hidden behind contents like raids.
Hit me up in game. If you want to do any raids I will be more than happy to add you to my raid run.

I’ve been a strong supporter of HoT in general. I have one HoT legendary already. I’ve completed every single collection in HoT. I own every single tonic and mini from HoT vendors. And I frequently take new players through HoT content, because I find it fun.

The coordination of 10 people, the fact that I live in Australia and often play off hours, the amount of latency I get, and the schedule of a person who can’t keep a regular schedule really works against me raiding regularly.

I really appreciate the offer and I"ll add you when in game. Being around when you raid might be challenging for me.

@Anka

When you have close to my AP you can call me lazy. Not enjoying certain content doesn’t make you lazy. Insisting I invest quite a bit of time doing content I don’t enjoy is simply ridiculous for a game company to do.

I came to this game speciifically because raids didn’t exist. I’m not lazy. Nor do I pay to do things I don’t enjoy. Maybe you do. Maybe you go to restaurants you don’t enjoy and order expensive meals. Why would I do that? Why would anyone do that?

So for years, I’ve been able to get top tier rewards. I’ve made 12 legendary weapons. I have three full sets of ascended armor. I have a boatload of ascended weapons and jewelry. I have 32 alts that are level 80. So much for lazy.

It’s so easy to use words like lazy, but this has nothing to do with lazy.

Let’s pretend I hate, really hate map completion. I could do ten points of interest and a couple of waypoints/vistas a day, and eventually at some point, just doing a bit here and a bit there, I can complete the map. Raids aren’t like this.

Raids require some degree of dedication and frustration. I don’t always have time to work at everything all at one time. I have trouble schedule a time where I KNOW I can be somewhere, because I care full time for a disabled person.

Content I can solo or even dungeon or Fractal content doesnt’ require the same kind of dedication in time as a raid. I don’t have to die repeatedly for hours on end until I kill bosses. This is a different ask.

The game has changed from something I’ve been able to put time into and accomplish to something you have to coordinate with 10 other people to accomplish.

I’m glad you think this is okay but I don’t. I’m not lazy if I don’t want to raid, I simply don’t want to invest dedicated play time into something I ultimately find annoying.

Sorry if you can’t see a difference.

And yes I make and sell legendaries I can afford to buy raids.

You can do half of the dailies in bloodstone fen in about three minutes. Literally. The gliding skills and collecting 10 unbound magic take no time at all.

You can get two of the three dailies in Ember Bay in under ten minutes and if you’re lucky, you can get all three in that time. If you only go for one of them, you can get that in about 90 seconds.

The problem with MMOs is that casual players need stuff to do, and some people need a road map. If you don’t give them dailies they won’t do anything because there’s nothing telling them what to do.

For a guy like me, I could do without it but youd’ be surprised at how many casual players don’t want to do anything they want.,…they want a checklist.

I go in, I do the two easy bloodstone fen dailies on most days because it’s very fast. I do the ember bay dalies almost every day because I’d like to get ascended accessories for most of my toons without spending guild commendations which I’m currently using for minis.

But I don’t do more than the dailes because I don’t need those accessories faster than I’m getting them….at least on most days. Sometimes I do hang out in Ember Bay because I’m having fun hanging out in Ember Bay.

The game shouldn’t really determine what you do. If you’re not having fun, do something else.

I think he means is that if you didn’t have to unlock hero points to use the stuff, it would be more fun.

It’s intentional because some people seem to think progression is important to the game..not just account progression but character progression.

Masteries progress your account and the new traits/skills progress each character.

I mean people sell raid runs all the time, so people who don’t actually raid can get legendary armor. This is one of the arguments. Therefore, how is it prestige. You can’t look at the armor and know that someone wasn’t carried through raids.

If the stuff you need from raids would be sellable on the trading post, that would be better, because the game would handle the transaction instead of having to trust your gold to a guild you may or may not know.

At the end of the day though, it can’t be a prestige item if people can buy runs, so there’s no real point in locking it behind raids.

Raiders can’t have it both ways. If it’s a prestige item for the elite, then runs invalidate it anyway. And if raiding is so easy anyone can do it, then it’s not a prestige item in the first place, thus another path to getting the armor is viable.

ProtoGunner.4953:

@Vayne and @Ayrilana, you are defending the game with such a passion…

First off, I think people overreact about price and the ‘I PAID ALREADY FOR ORIGINAL GAME’ argument. They played hundreds or thousands of hours for 3 years and got well worth their fair share of playtime.

But hear this: You can argue whatever you want there are two rather strong suspicions that lead to a not-so-good marketing strategy and failure (in regards of anet’s/ncsoft’s expectations):

1. The overwhelmingly negative reaction about the price of the expansion compared to actual content (landmass, dungeons etc.). Features-wise the expansion delivered though. Also they didn’t meet expectations sales-wise. It wasn’t bad either, but they expected more. So, somewhere they din’t deliver what a lot of people expected/wanted.

2. The treatment towards veterans. I was puzzled that I first didn’t even get a single additional character slot. In GW1 you got 2 slots per additional campaign (yeah, you’ll start to argue that it’s a campaign and no expansion…). After the nerd-rage emerging in the forums and reddit they at least added one additional slot for people who already had the game. But then again only under certain conditions; you can’t get it anymore.
Additionally, they ask charges for LS2 which is a very bad move. They could have marketed the expansion better (like ’HoT – LS2 included!). The story is so much tightly knit to the events in HoT. And it was for free anyway during the release.

First of all, speaking what you believe is true isn’t the same as defending the game. I’d defend any game in the same situation.

The fact is, and it is a fact, if you pay four months of WoW, you’re paying more than the price of the expansion. That means if you bought heart of thorns and played it for four months, you’ve broken even with what WoW would charge for an expansion…except for one thing. WoW also charges for an expansion. SO you’re paying for the expansion and an extra three months, which becomes a lot more than the price of the Guild Wars 2 expansion.

You can’t just look at the price of the expansion, you have to look at the entire way games are funded. Different games are funded differently.

I’ve played sub games and I’ve played free to play games and games with optional subscriptions. I haven’t found any to be particularly more generous than Guild Wars 2, but I’ve found a few to be less generous.

At the end of the day, I don’t feel like Guild Wars 2 nickles and dimes me to death, nor do I have to pay for a sub.

It’s a fact that if you own WoW and buy the current expansion you get all past expansions for free. That’s a lot more than just getting the core game for free.

At the end of the day, companies have to be competitive.

As for the game not selling as many copies as expected there are a ton of reasons that might be the case, and saying that it’s because the expansion didn’t contain enough might or might not be a major factor.

You can’t ignore other decisions Anet made like the dungeon nerf. Nor can you ignore a ton of bad publicity, which means, a lot of people didn’t try the expansion. They looked at the negative publicity and didn’t buy. Those people only have an idea of how much content is there from reading, not from playing.

At the end of the day, the expansion probably was priced too highly but all the other arguments I’ve made are fact, not opinion.

In short in answer to your question, no the purpose of balancing patches is not to make it so you don’t need balancing patches. This video explains it better than I can:

Tekey.7946:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

It’s fun to play. Why do you need rewards for everything?

As far as I know, the rewards have been different in the last years (exotic?). That’s why people were expecting something else. Right now It’s fun to do it one time, but you won’t get back afterwards if there’s no other reason. Especially because there’s a much more profitable game mode right next to it (labyrinth).

Also: I don’t believe that you’d play GW2 if there were no rewards. Being rewarded for the time and effort you’ve spent has its psychological reasons (in a game).

It’s hardish content for some people. If you put great rewards to it, people will feel they have to do it. I can usually one or two shot it, unless lag makes the last jump impossible, which happens too frequently if you’re not in the US. I’d not like to be locked out from those rewards based on latency alone.

That said, I still find time to run it, even though I know the labyrinth is more profitable. I can spend an hour in the labyrinth and 15 minutes running a puzzle. They’re not mutually exclusive.

Some things in this game I do for rewards, but if I played only for rewards, I’d stop playing. Not everything has to have top tier rewards.

Anka.5086:

Vayne.8563:

Crinn.7864:

Vayne.8563:

I"m not saying it shouldn’t be a component of raids. I’m saying there should be an alternate route besides raids. The raid component wouldn’t have to change at all.

If there was another route to get them, people from all sides would be in here kittening about how “other route” has it easier and how Anet is clearly personally discriminating against them.

As opposed to now when Anet will devote months of resources to something a minority would have. Someone is always going to complain. I’m complaining right now. It doesn’t make me right. It doesn’t make Anet do it.

The question is which group is larger and which, according to Anet has the most valid complaint. Saying we shouldn’t ask for something because another group my complain is pretty much a pointless exercise, because right now, there’s a group that’s complaining.

Deal with the idea that it’s not going to change and start doing raids. We didn’t see any of these topics up until Lege heavy armor trailer was released. Anyone can do raids, it’s not difficult to defeat any of the boss at all. Other players have proven you can 6-man almost every boss with decent gear. All it requires is time and effort. You don’t have that? Tough luck, legendary armor is not for you. It’s the ultimate prestige item in GW2 and it’s not going to be handed like legendary weapon and backpiece candies. Freebie players like yourself will be glad to know lege armor wont be out for another 3-4 months. You have plenty of time to get required 150 LI. Gd Luck.

I’ve been talking about this topic long long before hte first raid ever entered the game. I complained about it before the first raid entered the game. And my feelings haven’t changed since then.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

sophiewhite.3149:

Crinn.7864:

Vayne.8563:

I"m not saying it shouldn’t be a component of raids. I’m saying there should be an alternate route besides raids. The raid component wouldn’t have to change at all.

If there was another route to get them, people from all sides would be in here kittening about how “other route” has it easier and how Anet is clearly personally discriminating against them.

thats just too kitten bad.

On the contrary, stuff like that is bad for the game, too. There’s really no good solution that’s going to satisfy everyone.

People who do epic stuff in the game reasonably expect epic rewards. But people who are dedicated to the game also expect epic rewards. It’s hard to accommodate all play styles. I do think ANet made a tactical mistake tying the first legendary gear to content they were certain would be rejected by many, but having made that decision… I think it would be a worse mistake to reverse it.

I would like to see them stop offering new thing in raids first (e.g. new infusions with auras, hard-to-find stats, etc) and find a way to spit out new content to PvE faster, even if it’s just stuff like Modus Sceleris (I think the cats-at-home hunt shows we’re ready for it now).

If people complaining where bad for the game, there would be no MMORPGs at all. No one is saying that raiders can’t have legendary armor, or get it through raiding.

But that’s clearly an long, drawn out expensive process. People who bought HoT have already been complaining about the small amount of armors and Anet themselves have talked about how long and how hard the process is to make new armor for every race, every gender. It’s hard work. It’s why there are so few armors in the game and one of the reasons Guild Wars 1 had so many more armors. One race, two genders and done. Much easier.

So here we have a set of armor the majority would never have. We were told that raids didn’t take away from other content because only five people worked on it. Here’s a super complex piece of armor I might never have. Most people won’t have it. But more work has gone into it.

In the mean time, how many people love/want the few sets released with HOT? I think I wear bladed on one character but that’s it.

It’s not like we’re flush with masses of new armor skins. One is behind PvP, one is behind WvW, which some people hate. And you have to PvP, WvW a long time to get those. Now one will be behind raids, but what about everyone else?

I’d rather see an armor set developed that more people can make use of but barring that, I’d like to see ways in more people can get this armor set.

Because it’s not like most people are satisified with the number of new armors (as opposed to outfits) entering the game.

Crinn.7864:

Vayne.8563:

I"m not saying it shouldn’t be a component of raids. I’m saying there should be an alternate route besides raids. The raid component wouldn’t have to change at all.

If there was another route to get them, people from all sides would be in here kittening about how “other route” has it easier and how Anet is clearly personally discriminating against them.

As opposed to now when Anet will devote months of resources to something a minority would have. Someone is always going to complain. I’m complaining right now. It doesn’t make me right. It doesn’t make Anet do it.

The question is which group is larger and which, according to Anet has the most valid complaint. Saying we shouldn’t ask for something because another group my complain is pretty much a pointless exercise, because right now, there’s a group that’s complaining.

Crinn.7864:

No it should stay raids. If they made it open world accessible they’d end up locked behind a super crafting and RNG event grind that nobody wants to do.

Raids are probably the first humane way of getting legendries this game has ever offered.

I"m not saying it shouldn’t be a component of raids. I’m saying there should be an alternate route besides raids. The raid component wouldn’t have to change at all.

Calinc.2315:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Calinc.2315:

Soooo am I ever going to get anything in return for paying full retail for the first game?

All of the new players purchasing the expansion get everything I’ve paid for for free. When I pay for the expansion I will have effectively paid double for the content they get, does this seem/sound fair?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Yes, 3+ years of enjoyment, access to content that will never return, access to prices and exchange rates that will never return, and the satisfaction and pride of being a long-term vet!

You’re welcome. =)

That’s a fair way to look at it. I guess the bother was the sensation that they turned the expansion into a money grab from the long time fans. I guess I’ll wait for another sale, I still don’t think the expansion is worth retail… not like the original was. And I bought all expansions for the original without complaints >.>

People use terms like money-grab with such alarming frequency? But exactly what is a money grab here?

If you buy any triple A MMO, you’re pretty much buying the game, and then paying for the expansion. Now in the case of WoW and FF XIV, you’re also paying $15 each and every month for the priviledge of playing the game, plus paying for expansions and I believe both have cash shops on top of that, and I know WOW charges for server changes.

If you play SWTOR and ESO, and bought them at launch, you’d have paid a sub for a year (that’s $180 for those counting at home) and you’d still be paying for an expansion. In addition both games have optional subs…in the case of SWToR the optional isn’t really optional.

Now, if you go a step further and look at the fact that games like WoW and EQ are both giving away all past expansions if you own the core game and buy the new expansion— doesn’t Guild Wars 2 have to try to compete.

The big issue with MMOs is that the longer you wait to get into them, the greater the barrier to entry. And since all MMOs suffer natural attrition over time, getting those new players in is vital,, not only to the company for profit, but for the existing veteran player base.

The best thing Anet could possibly do for existing veterans is to remove barriers to entry for those who haven’t started playing yet. I’m a long term veteran and I’m really happy that they game is being offered for free to new players. They’re not screwing me..they’re keeping the game healthy.

Maybe if I were playing WoW or FFXIV and had to pay $180 a year just to be here, I’d feel the expansion is overpriced. But I don’t pay a sub fee and I think that the price isn’t so unreasonable…particularly as current players also get the Living World Season 3 for free, which so far has come with two new zones.

If you don’t buy the expansion now, at least make sure you log in regularly (assuming you own the original game) so you unlock the new Living Story zones. Some people have already missed unlocking the first chapter for free.

Azoqu.8917:

Vayne.8563:

Azoqu.8917:

You do know there is an equivalent to Legendary Armor already in PvP right? It’s called Glorious Hero armor and is only able to be obtained by doing extremely good in PvP. But since it doesn’t have purple letters I guess it doesn’t count even though in PvP you do not need purple letters to have access to any stat you want.

It’s not the same because it’s not actually animated once you enter combat. It’s just a skin. Nor can you swap stats on it.

And PvP players need to swap stats? Glorious Hero armor is also one of the best skins in the game so it doesn’t matter if it’s animated or not. I want a full set but I can’t have it. Yet I do not come to the forums and complain about it because I know that to get it I need to be in the top of PvP just like for Legendary armor (and be honest, if it wasn’t purple letters the vast majority of complainers wouldn’t care, transforming or not) you need to be the top of PvE.

This game needs way more rewards for actual hard content (some people will say raids aren’t hard, but harder than the rest of PvE). I was choked when the game first came out and Legendary weapons were a joke to get, pure money grind. The only rewards off the top of my head that require non-brain dead skill are the following:

Legendary armor
Glorious Hero armor
Liandri mini

Everything else in this game is a joke.

You’re entitled to your opinion. I almost never see glorious armor in the game. I’m going to see legendary armor. You’re not going to be able to help but to see it. It’s not tucked away in a corner. It’s going to be there in your face and that is a difference.

When I can’t get the stuff I want the way I play, when it’s in my face, every time I see it it’ll remind me that I can’t have it. It may not bother you, and that’s really good. I’m happy for you. It will bother me. It’ll bother those that play like me.

Fair or not, whether you’re happy or not, if there are enough of us, and there may not be, then it’s going to affect how many people are happily playing this game.

And the end of the day all MMOs have stuff that sucks. If enough stuff sucks for you you stop playing. This is one big thing that sucks for me, bigger than anything else by a fairly wide margin.

And since I’m only fueled by feeling on this, it’s just how I feel. It doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong. But being right or wrong doesn’t change the way I feel.

Azoqu.8917:

You do know there is an equivalent to Legendary Armor already in PvP right? It’s called Glorious Hero armor and is only able to be obtained by doing extremely good in PvP. But since it doesn’t have purple letters I guess it doesn’t count even though in PvP you do not need purple letters to have access to any stat you want.

It’s not the same because it’s not actually animated once you enter combat. It’s just a skin. Nor can you swap stats on it.

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Ashen.2907:

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Vayne.8563:

You’re right of course. Guild Wars 2 is at and end, and there won’t be a Guild Wars 3, because there doesn’t need to be.

I’m thoroughly convinced Guild Wars 2 has a bigger player base at this moment than Guild Wars 1 had at the same point in it’s history.

And there were several times in it’s history when Guild Wars 1 players cried out about changes to the game, such as Nightfall when heroes were introduced. Quite a few people saw heroes as the death-knell of the original Guild Wars and for them it was, as their social game slowly drifted into a mostly solo game.

Guild Wars 2 is an end, because they can keep upgrading it indefinitely which they couldn’t do with Guild Wars 1…the only reason they did this in the first place.

maybe that is how you see it for the heros but truth and honestly be told here heroes

was never see as this at all as the death-knell of the original Guild Wars

heros from night fall was a great add to the game and made it more better to get not

only missions done fully right the first time but also able to go across from L.A to

Drocks and Beacon’s perch like i said maybe that is how you saw heros . but not every

one saw heros in that same light as you do . and i been playing since it first came out

so i do know the differences here of what it was like before they put heros into that

game and afterwards too that is why when night fall came out i made good and sure

i had it preordered and hopefully maybe one day they will do the same here in gw2

then again maybe not got to see but i can say if they do . without a question at all it

will only improve this game fully by far just like it did with guild wars one

He didnt say everyone saw heroes in that light, just that some did. I hated the addition of heroes as they effectively all but killed one of my favorite aspects of the game.

i just read it as the way he wrote it and the way i took it only . and so ok you agree with

him that is all fine and good . but in my points of views i made them clear . and myself

i love the heros they was the best add to that game ever next to the events and

missions and the wide open no one around to help you at all maps unless you had

them in your party

You missed my point entirely. Whether you and thousands of other people liked heroes is completely irrelevant to my point.

My point is based on the OP’s original post. He’s playing to the disenfranchised in Guild Wars 2. You can see my the OP’s post history he doesn’t like a lot of things about this game and he’s painting a picture of Guild Wars 1 as a game where such decisions were universally liked…but they weren’t universally liked.

Heroes split the Guild Wars 1 community much as the conversations about raids splits the Guild Wars 2 community today. Neither game was without criticism and people walked away from both games in frustration over the years.

What one person believes or doesn’t believe is not relevant to the point. I like heroes quite a bit. Doesn’t change a thing about what I said though.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

The issue is the expectations were set by Anet for three years

The expectations were set by Anet for a very few months…and then the company went back on some pretty significant stated design decisions with the addition of ascended gear. At that point all bets were off and it was just a matter of time before this, more recent, “addition,” to the game came to pass. The writing has been on the wall since, almost, launch. All of the GW sacred cows are lined up for the slaughterhouse and have been from, nearly, the beginning.

• I am not suggesting this as a particularly great option, but you could continue to play what you want, when you want, and use the gold gained to acquire legendary armor by paying for runs. This would allow for chipping away at your own pace.*

Up until now to this day, Guild Wars 2 has changed very little in the way I play it. I still do what I want when I want. Before I could chip away at almost anything a bit at a time and get it done, with the exception of some temporary stuff.

With raids being required for legendary armor, and the new legendary stuff in PvP that’s largely changed. I can’t really chip away at stuff anymore, and that’s a problem for me.

I had very little problem with ascended gear, because I was almost to chip away at it. Same with legendary weapons. Now, not so much.

If it was a legit option, I’d consider it. IE one where I don’t risk money on a guild I don’t know and have no recourse if I don’t get what I paid for. That irks me.

Torolan.5816:

I can remember how you defended HoT over and over again, and that always includes raids for me. Maybe not for you, fair enough. I meant to say that you are a long time supporter of the game, not exclusively raids.

But please tell me the difference between me saying that features slowly causes you to drift away from defending Anets decisions and your statement of a changing direction that does not appeal to you? Isn´t that basically saying the same?

I’m saying that HoT has largely been an enjoyable experience for me, with the exception of raids themselves. That I love the new zones, not like love, yes, including TD, and spend a disproportionate amount of my time in the new zones…at least when there’s not a festival going on, or some new current event.

I’m saying that HoT renewed my interest in the game, by making the game more interesting for me.

I’m also saying that I’ve been against raids since before they launched and you can go back and look at my post history if you have long enough trawl through it to support that. And my biggest objection to raids was the creation of kitten and them playerbase that didn’t really exist prior to raids.

Raids divide the playerbase. They were always going to.

People said they wanted more challenging instanced content. I said, all along, that I don’t really mind that as long as rewards aren’t locked behind that content that can’t be attained in other ways. That’s been my argument since before the HoT release.

Now stuff like the legendary backpack and the legendary armor, they were off my radar, because frankly, I can get a lengedary backpack in Fractals, and legendary armor isn’t in the game.

Had it looked like a good skin with nothing “special” about it other than looking like a good skin, I might have just shrugged my shoulders. But armor that animates when you enter battle, that transforms, that’s new and cool enough for me to go after.

Until I saw the legendary armor, all I could do was be against it in theory. Doesn’t change the way I feel about the rest of HoT.

You’re right of course. Guild Wars 2 is at and end, and there won’t be a Guild Wars 3, because there doesn’t need to be.

I’m thoroughly convinced Guild Wars 2 has a bigger player base at this moment than Guild Wars 1 had at the same point in it’s history.

And there were several times in it’s history when Guild Wars 1 players cried out about changes to the game, such as Nightfall when heroes were introduced. Quite a few people saw heroes as the death-knell of the original Guild Wars and for them it was, as their social game slowly drifted into a mostly solo game.

Guild Wars 2 is an end, because they can keep upgrading it indefinitely which they couldn’t do with Guild Wars 1…the only reason they did this in the first place.

Actually they’re just doing what WoW and EQ are doing, because they have to stay competitive. The more barriers to entry you erect for new players, the less new players you get.

If you think not getting more new players is better for veterans, I’m not sure what to tell you.

Torolan.5816:

You know that a game goes on a very, very narrow path if guys like Vayne, a rather notorious supporter comes around and joins the people who think that a majority of features accumulated over time left a bad taste in their mouth.

What some people Astralporing, Ohoni, myself and some other guys I can´t remember right now have tried to tell the rest of you from the day of the announcement on that raids were confirmed and would have legendary armor exclusive to them is elitist and exclusive if you are not willing or able to dedicate yourself to raiding has now finally dribbled through to the people who it may actually concern as it went online now.

The reasoning stayed always the same however:
1. We are raiders, we deserve the best reward. I knew that this would come to haunt us from the get go, despite supporters of raids vehemently disputing it as they were looking for the challenge only. Look back a year in the forum and you will see where I am coming from.
2. 99% is casual, 1% is not. Give it to us. Ok.
3. Legendary armor is not a carrot for a game mode that can not stand on his own feet because of it´s difficulty. Even supporters are beginning to realize this now with multiple threads showing up from people that can not come into raids and others who always tell them how to comer into raids with the same idea. Most often this is very tiresome to read, but sometimes I do it just for the heck of it or because it sometimes turns outright ironically funny.
4. Every MMO has raids. I always enjoyed this the most because every MMO has also level progression and raises the level cap, why not also have this here? The outrage against this idea is always hillarious.

This misrepresents what I’ve said. I’ve been against raids, quite vocally, since before they were released. I’ve been against them before they were announced, and I’ve said so.

I don’t think most of the features, however, are an issue. There are issues certainly but not nearly most of them. Legendary armor isn’t even in the game. Right now there are precious few rewards I can’t get.

But I can see that some of what I had once believed to be the direction of the game is no longer the direction. And that happens in every MMO I’ve played for any length of time. These games always reinvent themselves. You stay as long as the reinvention works for you.

For me, HoT worked…except for the raids.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

The issue is the expectations were set by Anet for three years

The expectations were set by Anet for a very few months…and then the company went back on some pretty significant stated design decisions with the addition of ascended gear. At that point all bets were off and it was just a matter of time before this, more recent, “addition,” to the game came to pass. The writing has been on the wall since, almost, launch. All of the GW sacred cows are lined up for the slaughterhouse and have been from, nearly, the beginning.

Up until now to this day, Guild Wars 2 has changed very little in the way I play it. I still do what I want when I want. Before I could chip away at almost anything a bit at a time and get it done, with the exception of some temporary stuff.

With raids being required for legendary armor, and the new legendary stuff in PvP that’s largely changed. I can’t really chip away at stuff anymore, and that’s a problem for me.

I had very little problem with ascended gear, because I was almost to chip away at it. Same with legendary weapons. Now, not so much.

Dante.1508:

This game really went to hell huh, i guess mmo’s just cater to the scummy customer base these days lol

You can say this about anything. If there’s a handful of bad buys that take advantage in your town, then your town has a scummy population. If there’s a handful of bad guys in your school, then the school went to hell.

In reality, when you get a million people in one place, some of them will be scummy. There have been people charging for things for a long time now. Back in Guild Wars 1, there were people who charged you to ferry you to an outpost that costs them nothing. It’s human nature.

But it’s entertaining to see how people will take a single post on a forum because they don’t like the game and try to make it a case for the entire game is going to hell.

I wonder why so many posts that mentioned groups not doing this that you can join were ignored to come to certain conclusions.

I finished it yesterday. Not sure why it’s bugged for you.