For example, I think most people who like instances in most MMOs would probably have enjoyed Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, Urgoz’s Warren and Slaver’s Exile.
They wouldn’t.
The goal of “instances in most MMOs” (aka raids) is to get more powerful gear. None of your examples provides more powerful gear. Ergo, raiders would have hated them.
In fact, adding raids to Guild Wars 2 without giving them more powerful gear would only make raiders complain about how they wouldn’t be properly rewarded for their “work”.
Although I’m sure ArenaNet knows about this. I will be surprised if the GW2 “raids” aren’t when we will see the introduction of Ascended weapons and armors.
I’d be pretty surprised if Anet didn’t have ways outside of raids to get ascended weapons and armor.
Wait, why would you be surprised?
They have always gated Ascended gear. So why would this be any different if they add it to raids only?
When Ascended gear first came out, you could only get rings and a backpack. Rings were only Fractals and Backpack was only Mystic Forge (Rings are now available via Laurels as well). Then amulets came, and they were only Laurels. Then Trinkets came, and they are only Guild Missions and Laurels.
Ascended gear has always been gated. This would be no different.
After the initial Fractals only release, which Anet admitted was a mistake, they gave people ways to get ascended gear that pretty much EVERYONE could get. Yes, you can only get Amulets from dailies, but getting 30 dailies is not the same thing is raiding.
You’re comparing time gating with skill gating. No one can raid solo and I don’t think Anet will abandon their solo player base, which is larger than most people think.
Except you still can’t get Ascended gear solo.
The Backpack can only be obtained via doing Fractals for the Vial and Gift. You can’t craft it without doing Fractals. So you can’t get that solo.
Gating is still gating whether it is skill based or time based. And if they do introduce Ascended gear in their new raid feature, I don’t expect them to release the gear any other way. Unless they add yet another currency vendor, which in turn would just upset the players cause we have too many currencies as it is.
Gating is not gating whether it’s skill or time based. That is to say, it makes a huge difference to a casual player base.
A casual player base can deal with time gating far more easily than it can deal with skill gating.
The way Guild Wars 2 is set up now, if you want an ascended amulet, pretty much anyone can get one. You make claim that the only way to get an ascended back piece is the Fractals, but that’s only partially true, since I got an exotic back piece from the Living Story, just by doing a few of the achievements. Anet gave people another way to get an ascended back piece. I’m sure a lot of people are thrilled you can hide back pieces lol.
Anet isn’t going to make something really desirable that gives better stats that is also a skin that’s only available to a small percentage of the population.
Rings are different. You cant’ see them. Earrings you can’t see.
But when they come out with new armor and weapons that have higher stats, if they’re only available from raids, the casual population of this game will scream. And Anet can’t afford that.
Because it’s targeting casuals, not hard core.
Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor. I’ve been playing mmo’s all my life, and I know that any successful mmo will need an armor grind to keep it going, and doing dungeons for armor or forever searching for better armor is a necessity. I know it doesn’t appeal to most of you, but I bet you have a small moment of absolute joy every time you got that armor piece to make you better in WoW. This is what Guild Wars 2 lacks big time. Once I got exotic armor, I was basically done with the game, but I continued to play and found nearly nothing else in this game that has the same appeal as the armor progression in WoW. Legendaries are out of the question (Threw away thousands of rares and exotics into the Mystic Forge), and ascended gear is just there to make it so people will stay around a little longer instead of quitting GW2. GW2 has no end game.
I’d rather have tons of people quit the game, and have a strong niche audience. Because gear grind won’t keep people in this game once other games with gear grind come out.
This is how it works (and I’m making these numbers up as an example).
Say 10,000,000 people play MMOs and 1,000,000 like games with gear grind as end game. That means 9,000,000 will end up not liking Guild Wars 2. However, if those 9,000,000 people have 20 choices, and they divide evenly, only 500,000 people will end up playing each one.
Guild Wars 2 will be the only MMO with gear grind and so it will keep it’s 1,000,000 players.
Those may not be accurate numbers but the theory is sound. Some people, obviously, don’t like gear grind. And those people may not be in the majority. But the majority fo the people who like it aren’t playing every game and once you divy them up, you end up with less people playing.
Put another way, how many games WITH gear grind would you consider successful by percentage?
Not to be rude, but it sounds like you haven’t played a lot of mmo’s. That may or may not be true, so I’ll not accuse you of not knowing what you’re talking about. How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on. The point I’m trying to make is that you may pretend not to like gear grind, but it’s the only thing that keeps many, many people interested until end-game. Everquest was the first to implement this idea, and Blizzard was smart enough to go along with it. No current mmo has even tried to change that gear grind until Guild Wars 2, and a ton of people don’t like that the gear is so easily attainable. I’ll give you a percentage. About 82% of people in my guild say they want more gear that will make them better. (This is just a rough estimate of the guild percentage) That’s 82% of 500 people. Because of this, I can safely say that the majority of players want way more gear to obtain and they don’t want to so easily obtain the max gear so early on. Without boasting it’s dynamic events, fun dungeons, and meta-bosses bigger than life itself, Guild Wars 2 would’ve died awhile ago.
It’s not rude. I’ve played many of the games you’ve listed and liked exactly NONE of them and that IS my point.
Name one single MMO besides Guild Wars 2 without gear grind. Just one.
You can’t really do it, because virtually all MMOs have gear grind. So to say they’re successful BECAUSE of gear grind is an assumption you can’t make. That’s like saying sports with balls are popular. Well some sports with balls are more popular than others. But the ball isn’t what makes them popular.
I’ve played a whole lot of MMOs. My point is, if there are people out there like me (and clearly there are) we only have one place to go at this time, and that’s Guild Wars 2. People like you have many places to go.
If you make Guild Wars 2 like the other games, people like me will leave, and Guild Wars 2 will have to compete with all the other games that they’re suddenly like. That’s what I’m saying.
You seem to have missed my point completely.
For example, I think most people who like instances in most MMOs would probably have enjoyed Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, Urgoz’s Warren and Slaver’s Exile.
They wouldn’t.
The goal of “instances in most MMOs” (aka raids) is to get more powerful gear. None of your examples provides more powerful gear. Ergo, raiders would have hated them.
In fact, adding raids to Guild Wars 2 without giving them more powerful gear would only make raiders complain about how they wouldn’t be properly rewarded for their “work”.
Although I’m sure ArenaNet knows about this. I will be surprised if the GW2 “raids” aren’t when we will see the introduction of Ascended weapons and armors.
I’d be pretty surprised if Anet didn’t have ways outside of raids to get ascended weapons and armor.
Wait, why would you be surprised?
They have always gated Ascended gear. So why would this be any different if they add it to raids only?
When Ascended gear first came out, you could only get rings and a backpack. Rings were only Fractals and Backpack was only Mystic Forge (Rings are now available via Laurels as well). Then amulets came, and they were only Laurels. Then Trinkets came, and they are only Guild Missions and Laurels.
Ascended gear has always been gated. This would be no different.
After the initial Fractals only release, which Anet admitted was a mistake, they gave people ways to get ascended gear that pretty much EVERYONE could get. Yes, you can only get Amulets from dailies, but getting 30 dailies is not the same thing is raiding.
You’re comparing time gating with skill gating. No one can raid solo and I don’t think Anet will abandon their solo player base, which is larger than most people think.
Play the first game, then compare it to GW2, play “Insert generic MMO here” and compare it to GW2.
Which share more similarities?
Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and throw it out of the window.My point is – theres absolutely nothing GW2 has common with GW1 except for lore.
I started playing GW1 just a few months after release of Prophecies, and still play it.
Similarities to GW1:
-Skill over gear
-No mandatory grind
-Lore
-Cooperation over CompetitionSimilarities to WoW:
-Higher levelsFunnily enough I find more similarities to GW1 than WoW.
One major difference between Guild Wars 2 and WoW is a monthly fee. Another is that WoW had a taunt mechanic which completely changes the game. Another is that WoW has mounts (and they’re very significant to the game), Guild Wars 2 does not.
Well if you want to be technical about it, GW2 does have mounts.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riding_Broom
Just cause it doesn’t give you a speed boost, doesn’t mean it’s not a mount. You still mount it and ride it, and it is specifically called a Riding Broom. Thus a mount.
It doesn’t have mounts or use them in the sense that WoW does though. Even if it did have mounts, in WoW mounts are a “thing”. They’re central to the game. Everywhere you look, there are mounts. There are mounts in their cash shop. You can buy mounts in game.
When I played Rift, people played to get mounts. There were speed differences.
To say Guild Wars 2 is like WoW because they have a broom in their cash shop is pretty misleading.
It doesn’t matter how they were used or how detrimental they are to the game, they are there. I was just meaning that you can’t really say that GW2 doesn’t have mounts, when they clearly do. They might not be exactly how they are in WoW or Rift or any other game that has them, but they are present and that is what matters.
And I didn’t mean that GW2 is like WoW cause it has mounts. I was just covering that bit of “misinformation” for those that didn’t know. GW2 has mounts yes, but that doesn’t mean it is like WoW because of it.
Right, the way you said it makes it sound like the contradiction invalidated my point, which it doesn’t.
However, for the sake of accuracy, I will agree that Guild Wars 2 as a mount.
For example, I think most people who like instances in most MMOs would probably have enjoyed Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, Urgoz’s Warren and Slaver’s Exile.
They wouldn’t.
The goal of “instances in most MMOs” (aka raids) is to get more powerful gear. None of your examples provides more powerful gear. Ergo, raiders would have hated them.
In fact, adding raids to Guild Wars 2 without giving them more powerful gear would only make raiders complain about how they wouldn’t be properly rewarded for their “work”.
Although I’m sure ArenaNet knows about this. I will be surprised if the GW2 “raids” aren’t when we will see the introduction of Ascended weapons and armors.
I’d be pretty surprised if Anet didn’t have ways outside of raids to get ascended weapons and armor.
I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.
I agree. If you’re bored with a game, you stop playing the game. That’s my take on it. Or you take a break.
I’m not bored with Guild Wars 2, so I’m not taking a break, or leaving.
I’m afraid you’re right. Though it does make me a little sad because it leaves the game with no hope of ever growing if the only smart thing to do is to simply walk away and leave it with all its (perceived) problems.
The GW2 community is very polarized. Anet’s failure to come up with a solid middle-ground solution is slowly making the game bleed out. I would be very interested in seeing an official census of players today vs a year ago.
It doesn’t really matter. There are enough players like me to populate Guild Wars 2. There are tons of games for the rest of you. Let us have one of them.
Vayne you are a celebrity. Can I has your autograph?
Would you believe I’ve signed autographs in real life at a convention? lol
Screenshot or it never happened!
And, cool!
I have photos actually. It was at the World Science Fiction Convention in Chicago in 2000. Back before I realized I didn’t actually have a writing career. lol
Play the first game, then compare it to GW2, play “Insert generic MMO here” and compare it to GW2.
Which share more similarities?
Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and throw it out of the window.My point is – theres absolutely nothing GW2 has common with GW1 except for lore.
I started playing GW1 just a few months after release of Prophecies, and still play it.
Similarities to GW1:
-Skill over gear
-No mandatory grind
-Lore
-Cooperation over CompetitionSimilarities to WoW:
-Higher levelsFunnily enough I find more similarities to GW1 than WoW.
One major difference between Guild Wars 2 and WoW is a monthly fee. Another is that WoW had a taunt mechanic which completely changes the game. Another is that WoW has mounts (and they’re very significant to the game), Guild Wars 2 does not.
Well if you want to be technical about it, GW2 does have mounts.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riding_Broom
Just cause it doesn’t give you a speed boost, doesn’t mean it’s not a mount. You still mount it and ride it, and it is specifically called a Riding Broom. Thus a mount.
It doesn’t have mounts or use them in the sense that WoW does though. Even if it did have mounts, in WoW mounts are a “thing”. They’re central to the game. Everywhere you look, there are mounts. There are mounts in their cash shop. You can buy mounts in game.
When I played Rift, people played to get mounts. There were speed differences.
To say Guild Wars 2 is like WoW because they have a broom in their cash shop is pretty misleading.
I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.
I agree. If you’re bored with a game, you stop playing the game. That’s my take on it. Or you take a break.
I’m not bored with Guild Wars 2, so I’m not taking a break, or leaving.
Play the first game, then compare it to GW2, play “Insert generic MMO here” and compare it to GW2.
Which share more similarities?
Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and throw it out of the window.My point is – theres absolutely nothing GW2 has common with GW1 except for lore.
I started playing GW1 just a few months after release of Prophecies, and still play it.
Similarities to GW1:
-Skill over gear
-No mandatory grind
-Lore
-Cooperation over CompetitionSimilarities to WoW:
-Higher levelsFunnily enough I find more similarities to GW1 than WoW.
One major difference between Guild Wars 2 and WoW is a monthly fee. Another is that WoW had a taunt mechanic which completely changes the game. Another is that WoW has mounts (and they’re very significant to the game), Guild Wars 2 does not.
GW2 is more of a WoW Clone than GW1 Clone.
The irony.
Only someone who’s played Guild Wars 1 and not WoW could possibly say this.
Vayne you are a celebrity. Can I has your autograph?
Would you believe I’ve signed autographs in real life at a convention? lol
Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor. I’ve been playing mmo’s all my life, and I know that any successful mmo will need an armor grind to keep it going, and doing dungeons for armor or forever searching for better armor is a necessity. I know it doesn’t appeal to most of you, but I bet you have a small moment of absolute joy every time you got that armor piece to make you better in WoW. This is what Guild Wars 2 lacks big time. Once I got exotic armor, I was basically done with the game, but I continued to play and found nearly nothing else in this game that has the same appeal as the armor progression in WoW. Legendaries are out of the question (Threw away thousands of rares and exotics into the Mystic Forge), and ascended gear is just there to make it so people will stay around a little longer instead of quitting GW2. GW2 has no end game.
I’d rather have tons of people quit the game, and have a strong niche audience. Because gear grind won’t keep people in this game once other games with gear grind come out.
This is how it works (and I’m making these numbers up as an example).
Say 10,000,000 people play MMOs and 1,000,000 like games with gear grind as end game. That means 9,000,000 will end up not liking Guild Wars 2. However, if those 9,000,000 people have 20 choices, and they divide evenly, only 500,000 people will end up playing each one.
Guild Wars 2 will be the only MMO with gear grind and so it will keep it’s 1,000,000 players.
Those may not be accurate numbers but the theory is sound. Some people, obviously, don’t like gear grind. And those people may not be in the majority. But the majority fo the people who like it aren’t playing every game and once you divy them up, you end up with less people playing.
Put another way, how many games WITH gear grind would you consider successful by percentage?
Yay, required to play on a schedule is coming to GW2. This game just keeps on becoming like every other MMO out there…. In a year they might aswell rename the game to World of Guild Wars.
If they want more money the have to have more ppl playing so yes, they need features from other games
Arguably, playing like other games could end up giving Anet less money.
There are lots of games like other games, so the playerbase for them is more divided. There are very few games like Guild Wars 2, so it’s found a niche.
If it loses the niche, then what will stop people from leaving it for other games that do the same thing?
Why do people think that raiding equals gear grind?
That wasn’t how GW1 worked.But then again, obviously, GW2 is not trying to be what GW1 was, it’s trying to appeal all the other generic mmo payer needs, not their original fans.
And you really believe that only catering to the original GW1 fanbase is the best thing? Sorry, yes you do.
I honestly believe Anet CAN cater to the Guild Wars 1 fan base and STILL cater to other people as well at the same time, even with the same content.
For example, I think most people who like instances in most MMOs would probably have enjoyed Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, Urgoz’s Warren and Slaver’s Exile.
The only think that really needs to be changed is the gear grind reward structure.
These are the people who give farmers bad names. Some people think they own the game. They don’t. Do what you want. If they’re abusive, take screen shots and report them.
Those who are farmers wonder why people on these forums have trouble with them. While it’s true most farmers are nice and friendly and not like that, there is a small, visible, very annoying group of farmers who don’t care who’s game they ruin as long as they get their loot (or in this case achievement).
Woah, Vayne pulled a 180!
My $0.02 cents, but ANET needs to bring back the “old” Cursed Shore vents. Fact is people want a constant stream of enemies to fight, and that is why people would farm tunnel when the events chained off of each other. If people were farming normal events more, they wouldn’t be so desperate to camp the JP.
wait, how did he pull a 180? :p
He’s probably talking about my examples of how farming ruined my initial experiences of Orr (which it basically did). But that has less to do with farmers and more to do with game design. I was saying I liked Orr better now than I did when farmers were there doing their thing.
These are the people who give farmers bad names. Some people think they own the game. They don’t. Do what you want. If they’re abusive, take screen shots and report them.
Those who are farmers wonder why people on these forums have trouble with them. While it’s true most farmers are nice and friendly and not like that, there is a small, visible, very annoying group of farmers who don’t care who’s game they ruin as long as they get their loot (or in this case achievement).
Woah, Vayne pulled a 180!
My $0.02 cents, but ANET needs to bring back the “old” Cursed Shore vents. Fact is people want a constant stream of enemies to fight, and that is why people would farm tunnel when the events chained off of each other. If people were farming normal events more, they wouldn’t be so desperate to camp the JP.
I haven’t pulled a 180. I don’t really think this game is ideal for farmers and never have. But I don’t, and never have, had a personal objection to farmers.
Farmers largely aren’t happy with the game, because of several design decisions made by Anet. Those design decisions don’t affect those who play like me, leading me to believe that Anet designed the game pretty much to be played, at least in one way, the way I play it. If you read the literature, it sure seems like they designed a game to be played the way I want to.
Not to say there are other people who don’t play differently, who enjoy the game the way they play it…but farmers largely don’t seem to be satisfied…so they complain.
I don’t think their complaints aren’t warranted. I’m sure I’d complain if I were a farmer too. I just don’t think Anet really had farming in mind when they designed Guild Wars 2.
They may, however, make changes to make it better for farmers in the future.
@Ashen
Ah, I love limited use of language and especially literalism to try to prove a point.,
1. I agree with this. This game is quite different from Guild Wars 1. I’ve said all along that this is the one line that Anet didn’t hold true to.
2. Use of the word fully to disprove a point. Shame on you. Fully doesn’t mean INFINITELY. It doesn’t mean a lot. Fully branching means what to you? How do you describe a fully branching. In fact, it is fully branching, because two people can play through the entire story line and have 99% different experiences within the context of the game.
Is the story personalized….umm yeah. I had a watch personalized. I had my name engraved on it. That made it a watch with my name on it. Someone else with the same name could have it engraved on the same brand of watch and it would still be personalized.
Why is it personalized? Because it’s different from character to character. I have 19 characters and each has a different story. This is trying to manipulate the language to get it to mean what you want. Personalized means it’s your story as compared to other MMOs like WoW which have NO personal story. There is just the story of the world. In other MMOs everyone has the same story and in Guild Wars 2 it’s personalized.
3. The term grind is DEFINED in the manifesto. Colin says DIRECTLY exactly the kind of grind he’s talking about. "In most games you have this grind that you have to get to to do the fun stuff…we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2.
This was explained ad nauseum by Anet many times since the manifesto. In most games you have 1 experience leveling, which you do just to get to the end game which is different. You level so you can get to end game which is raiding. In Guild Wars 2 you fight the big bosses even in starting zones. That’s all that means.
You can take every word of every document literally and try to prove a point. This is what lawyers and politicians do. It doesn’t make it truth.
Anet released immediately after the manifesto was released a very specific clarification. Colin was talking about dynamic events, Ree was talking about the personal story. If you watch it again, it’s actually very clear. Editing muddied it, which is why Anet released a clarification.
(edited by Vayne.8563)
A manifesto is something that is a statement of intent. You intend to do something. Obviously,. that has to be accomplished with the parameters of existing technology.
See, all of those are just excuses. Just as it was an excuse to claim that the Manifesto doesn’t matter just because it’s two years old. I hope you have read my comment above about players extremelly concerned about finding excuses for ArenaNet.
If you make a Manifesto claiming you will do something, and said something is not possible within the parameters of existing technology, then you still have failed to achieve what you claimed you would do.
If you make a Manifesto claiming you will do a list of things, and you still don’t manage to do one of those things, then you still have failed to achieve everything you claimed you would do.
By your own statements, ArenaNet has failed in achieving their Manifesto. Ergo…
Even though I used the words within the boundaries of technology, I could remove those words and my statement would STILL be true.
I’m not even sure why I put those words in, since they don’t affect the manifesto at all.
It’s so sad that you can’t see the difference between opinion and fact. In your OPINION that game doesn’t live up to the manifesto. In my OPINION it does.
Told you one week ago that you need better arguments than “it’s just your opinion!!!!11!”. Besides…
I disgree. I think they did attain, within the limits of current technology, pretty much what they set out to do in the manifesto.
I could list out in text the entire manifesto and with the exception of a single line, I think they’ve accomplished what they’ve set out to do.
…In your own opinion, it looks no, the game doesn’t exactly live up to the Manifesto.
To me, ArenaNet’s failure to follow their own Manifesto is the perfect symbol as to how they have failed with Guild Wars 2.
It doesn’t matter what you told me a week ago, it was wrong then, and it’s wrong now.
When someone states something as a matter of fact, that is a matter of opinion, pointing out that it’s opinion is fair game.
A manifesto is something that is a statement of intent. You intend to do something. Obviously,. that has to be accomplished with the parameters of existing technology.
If your intent is to make a game with no lag, you’ll have to fail. But you can make a game that has very little lag, that is to say the best you can do with the existing technology. Your intent is carried through as far as possible. That’s not failure,. that’s success.
At any rate, even without the technology comment, if I line for lined the manifesto, and I have, I’d find precisely one line I disagreed with. And that’s the line about taking everything you loved about Guild Wars 1.
Everything else, in my opinion has been successfully implemented.
I disgree. I think they did attain, within the limits of current technology, pretty much what they set out to do in the manifesto.
You are wrong.
I mentioned how haters are people who want the game to fail. What would you call someone who is willing to give excuses for whatever flaw is pointed in the game, instead of accepting criticism as something ArenaNet could use to improve Guild Wars 2?
I’m not wrong just because you say so. I could list out in text the entire manifesto and with the exception of a single line, I think they’ve accomplished what they’ve set out to do. They’ve certainly accomplished most of it.
I wouldn’t call that a failure at all.
You can say you are not wrong, but it appears you show I am right.
It’s so sad that you can’t see the difference between opinion and fact. In your OPINION that game doesn’t live up to the manifesto. In my OPINION it does.
But you’re so bent on being “right” that you won’t accept that people can have a different opinion. If you want to believe you’re “right” about something that is very much an opinion, go ahead.
It makes no difference.
The manifesto is essentially a list of things to be accomplished, or avoided, in developing GW2.
Either those things have been accomplished, or avoided, or they have not. I am not sure that opinion comes into play here. I am not coming in on either side of the argument regarding the manifesto (too long since I first visited it) but, unless it is vague to the point of being completely irrelevant, it should be possible to determine whether or not its stated goals have been accomplished.
In general a manifesto, resolution, or design goal that is so open to interpretation that success or failure in implementing its stated components is purely a matter of opinion is worthless.
Actually, this isn’t quite true.
In order for you to rate whether or not something is fulfilled in the manifesto, you have to define certain words. Words like fun.
I understood exactly what Colin was saying about grinding and fun. Some people choose to take comments from that paragraph out of context and assign a different definition of grind than the one he’d already given. By taking that line out of context, they are changing the meaning of the entire paragraph.
But the manifesto talks about fun things to do also. That you’ll be able to do fun things without this annoying grind to get to them. That’s simply a matter of opinion since different people find different things fun. I certainly was able to do a bunch of stuff I personally found fun, but someone else might not find the same things fun, so the paragraph might not hold true for them.
Those who are farmers wonder why people on these forums have trouble with them.
I don’t really wonder, I know. Its because some people judge a group by the behavior of a minority within that group. I know someone who plays computer games, including GW2, and who uses illegal drugs. So gamers, especially GW2 players, are drug addicts right ?
I was a farmer, and would never abuse another for playing the game. I might very well farm an event if it was available to be farmed, but if someone came along with the intention of completing it I would help them or just move on.
But a tiny fraction of farmer’s are rude, so many people felt justified in abusing farmers, and farming, in general. It says more about those casting aspersions than it does about those playing the game.
OP, you were treated inappropriately, not by farmers, but by rude people who happened to be farming when you encountered them. I hope you have better luck with people in game going forward.
Is exactly right, but no doubt this will become an anti farmers/anti farming thread.
I really hope this thread doesn’t become an anti-farming thread. I think most farmers are quite okay. They’re doing what they enjoy.
It’s a shame a few people have to make it look like all farmers are inconsiderate.
Abusive text should not and is not tolerated. Report anyone who is disrespectful to you in this manner.
That being said, I see nothing wrong with the farmers in your 1st example. If they want to sit at the cache in Vexx’s lab and just kill pirates they have that right. They’re also doing you no harm by asking you not to complete the event. Now if you want to ignore them and do it anyway that’s fine but if them simply asking you to not do it offends you then that’s a ‘you’ problem.
Everyone has a right to play the game the way they want, that includes farmers too.
It sort of depends on HOW they asked.
I found my way into the next zone, fireheart something, the one where you can hear the frightful unison wail of “LFG CoF P1” in the distance, repeating over and over. I think it’s odd to hear zombies when your enemies are mostly fire legion.
Okay this made me laugh.
So people who don’t like the ‘themepark’ content atm…should go off do something else (whatever that maybe) and tune back in when a expansion comes out? At which point we get to have epic battles and fight dragons?
Or alternatively, lets say you love WvW like I do, just do that until the expansion comes out…
I’m saying that if people have unrealistic expectations of games, they’re going to be disappointed. No company can make content faster than people can consume it.
Think in terms of Skyrim. Show much of Skyrim could you complete before the first downloadable content came out? You played Dragon Age, and the wait for Dragon Age 2 was years.
If you played those games again, or replayed them, you’d be fighting the same monsters. The same dragons. The same bandits. That’s the nature of games.
So yes, if someone wants more content, they have to wait for more content to be developed which takes time. At least Guild Wars 2 is giving people “stuff to do” which in the end is what MMOs end up being. Stuff to do.
You may not personally like the stuff, but there are people who’ve liked the temporary dungeons, there are people who’ve liked the jumping puzzles (a new permanent one is coming July 2nd), there are people who even like just farming boxes in the open world.
This kind of content, most of it, is quite easy to make, compared to say a raid, or a new dungeon. And they’re giving you a new dungeon.
What should people do? Realize that content takes time and content eventually comes out, and when it does, you can play it. Until it does, either make another character, play another aspect of the game or play another game.
Entertainment content is always limited. You can only get so much out of it.
These are the people who give farmers bad names. Some people think they own the game. They don’t. Do what you want. If they’re abusive, take screen shots and report them.
Those who are farmers wonder why people on these forums have trouble with them. While it’s true most farmers are nice and friendly and not like that, there is a small, visible, very annoying group of farmers who don’t care who’s game they ruin as long as they get their loot (or in this case achievement).
I disgree. I think they did attain, within the limits of current technology, pretty much what they set out to do in the manifesto.
You are wrong.
I mentioned how haters are people who want the game to fail. What would you call someone who is willing to give excuses for whatever flaw is pointed in the game, instead of accepting criticism as something ArenaNet could use to improve Guild Wars 2?
I’m not wrong just because you say so. I could list out in text the entire manifesto and with the exception of a single line, I think they’ve accomplished what they’ve set out to do. They’ve certainly accomplished most of it.
I wouldn’t call that a failure at all.
You can say you are not wrong, but it appears you show I am right.
It’s so sad that you can’t see the difference between opinion and fact. In your OPINION that game doesn’t live up to the manifesto. In my OPINION it does.
But you’re so bent on being “right” that you won’t accept that people can have a different opinion. If you want to believe you’re “right” about something that is very much an opinion, go ahead.
It makes no difference.
Ugh, raiding. Next thing we know, they’ll add traditional questing and the holy trinity.
So many things they said they wouldn’t do in the beginning, and here we are with most of those things being done now. It seems Anet is taking GW2 further and further away from what it was supposed to be, and turning it into your traditional cookie cutter MMO now.
Two points.
Anet never said they’re never add raiding. You can’t find the quote that says it, because they haven’t.
More to the point, there was “raiding” in Guild Wars 1 too, but it was NOTHING like raiding on other games…it wasn’t even called raiding.
But it was an area of elite content for 12 man teams (when the normal max party size was 8 man).
I think you should keep an open mind about raiding in Guild Wars 2…because I don’t think this will be anything like the raiding you’re thinking of.
Main thing I miss was the dual classes and complete build control. You could put together such amazing concepts…. I spent hours just coming up with builds, it was hands down the funnest part for me.
Ironically, it was also the main thing they shredded and threw in the trash for GW2.
It’s not ironic at all..it’s intentional.
The two biggest complaints about Guild Wars 1 (besides not being able to jump) was the lack of the ability of the team to balance the game (and believe me the balance was much worse than Guild Wars 2 currently is) and the fact that new players didn’t know how to make builds.
For those who loved to make builds (like me) that game was a bit of paradise, but far more people didn’t want to do that at all, or like them. They wanted to play and that’s it. What’s why you saw people in game all the time asking for people to ping them builds.
This made the game very user unfriendly, and a lot of people simply walked away because they couldn’t make a build to save their lives.
I after say I agree to some extent…
I wanted a endgame the was epic struggles against different dragons…I appear to have got fashion wars 2, centered around a contrived story who’s main purpose is to sell the latest piece of junk in the gemstore.
People say you want no stat progression but really its just been replaced with a endless fashion catwalk, where players wear the latest skin for 2 weeks to a month, then get a new one, leaving the old one to gather dust in there inventory.
I think since around Jan 13, GW2 has lost any sense of direction…
Okay, so let’s compare the game to Guild Wars 1 at the 10 month mark, which is where we are.
In Guild Wars 1, you had two elite areas, The Underworld and The Fissure of Woe and they added another elite area, somewhat smaller, called Sorrow’s Furnace. The game was finished. There were 25 missions. There was no progression.
By the 10 month mark there was no excuse not to have every elite skill. The story was over, because you beat it when you beat the 25th mission.
What people are complaining about there is that you beat the dragon and you want to fight more dragons. And when they come out with those expansions you’ll be able to.
But really for a 10 month old game, it’s gold a whole lot of content. Even if Fractals and Guild Missions were the only thing added to the game, it’s still a lot more than most MMOs have by the 10 month mark.
People are spoiled. They look at games with years of content development behind them and they think new games should have the same amount of content.
It’s never gonna happen.
They did, https://forum.guildwars.com/forum/
It’s at least 2 years old.Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I must’ve lost that memo…that said, I don’t think that forum has the same purpose as this one…
The Guild Wars 1 forum is a tech support forum, not a forum for online game discussion.
Oh this game isn’t going to fail at all. But it also isn’t going to be the great game it could have been, and that everyone expected.
It’s well and truly going down that path of niche game. It’s far too clunky, antiquated, and bland to attract and keep a large crowd. I’m sure they’ll improve it over time, but I think they’ve already driven off too many people, who are now into other things.
I agree it’s more likely to be a niche game than a mainstream game, but I certainly don’t think that’s a failure.
I seriously doubt any game I’d play for a long period of time would end up being mainstream, because most of what I read and watch isn’t mainstream either. Which doesn’t make it bad. It makes it different…which can be a very good thing.
I disgree. I think they did attain, within the limits of current technology, pretty much what they set out to do in the manifesto.
You are wrong.
I mentioned how haters are people who want the game to fail. What would you call someone who is willing to give excuses for whatever flaw is pointed in the game, instead of accepting criticism as something ArenaNet could use to improve Guild Wars 2?
I’m not wrong just because you say so. I could list out in text the entire manifesto and with the exception of a single line, I think they’ve accomplished what they’ve set out to do. They’ve certainly accomplished most of it.
I wouldn’t call that a failure at all.
It is an awesome game and it won’t fail. Some here seem to almost want this game to fail.
Yep, a lot of people here want the game to fail, that’s pretty much what a hater is.
You haven’t stated what is your definition of “failure”, though.
From my point of view, ArenaNet has already failed. They made a manifesto with their intention, and they didn’t really managed to accomplish most of what they stated as their goal.
Does this mean Guild Wars 2 is a bad game? For some people, yes. For others, no. For me, yes.
I disgree. I think they did attain, within the limits of current technology, pretty much what they set out to do in the manifesto.
Of all the OP’s complaints, I think the reward one is the only one with actual merit. The rest of the complaints are misplaced. Since people have already dealt with the filter and Interface, I’ll weigh in on the Living Story.
The Living Story is something SOME people rush to complete. It’s also somethign SOME people really enjoy and take their time with.
If you’re just going to Dulfy’s site and burning through the content to get achievements, you’re pretty much missing the point.
So, what you are saying is that you are a fanboy and don’t care to listen to others’ criticism of GW2?
I don’t know. I read the OP and he seemed to have some criticisms himself. He’s just saying the game won’t fail.
Maybe wielding the word fan boy isn’t always the right answer.
The OP is right…and wrong.
There is no progression of your characters story after the personal story ends. It’s true.
What the OP is leaving out is that there aren’t many MMOs with personal stories At all (only SWToR, afaik) and when the story ends there…the story ends. That happens in single player games too, unless they come out with expansion content. I played mass effect and when the story ended the game was over. So I’m not sure what the complaint is.
Does the OP want infinite personal story that continues on forever? Does he want gear progression to progress his character? Does gear progression even progress your character, or does it just make you a coatrack for greatness?
The only story we have now that progresses is the Living World stories and they are stories, if you bother to talk to people and pay attention to what’s going on.
It’s unrealistic to expect a personal story to continue indefinitely, though it may well continue with an expansion. But I don’t see not having gear progress as a problem for the game.
I see it as a strength of the game.
I don’t know if this will apply to you or not, but I find that if there’s a lot on my event bar, and I have the gold reward open, I actually get items that don’t show up on the side bar. In other words, I might get six or seven items, but only see five of them because open tasks like the daily and the meta and the living story push the list down so I can only see part of it.
Other than that, I haven’t really counted items. But I have had days where I thought I’ve only gotten 3 items and then found rares in my bag from the event that didn’t show up on the side bar.
After getting a character to max level I was saddened and stunned to realize all you had to do was have a maxed out profession to craft some exotics, browse the auction house for your other stuff you weren’t able to craft and you were done for 80% of your “gearing”.
Then iirc (it’s been a while since I quit) you had to get fractal level ten to get access to the ascended items, was only a matter of time till you had that one, if you already didn’t had it by doing those monthly/daily “achievements”.
There, you’re geared. Now what?
No other activity what so ever in this game will give you better stats. Every kittening exotic is the same. The only reason to run dungeons is to get vanity skins. Jezus kittening Christ, even the legendary doesn’t have better stats.
…
This is were I realized this game isn’t for me. I want to be challenged, be rewarded, be able to be min-max and kitten around with my gear, try out other things. A new dungeon? Cool! New gear? Ah no… No… But yay there’s a new backpack and new vanity items. That’s great for people who like that but that won’t help my dps or make my char grow, get better, push it to the limit. We don’t want all that, we want everybody to be the same and stay where we are… How does that make sense?
Oh yeah, it’s not about gear, it’s a bout skill, right? It’s about the experience?
Well… why not ALL of it? So everybody can have fun.
You’re completely out of touch with this community and this game.
Do you realize that what you’re complaining about was a selling point of this game. That even the slight upgrade to stats that ascended gear gives you caused a significant percentage of the game’s population to walk? That people are claiming that the addition of ascended gear was the equivalent of Anet lying to us?
Guild Wars 1 lasted 8 years with a much smaller gear ceiling than Guild Wars 2 has. It had only 20 levels, and it was MUCH MUCH easier to get max armor and weapons. In Guild Wars 1, you were fully geared in a much shorter amount of time and there was no way to get better stats ever on anything PERIOD.
And this was what Guild Wars 1 players wanted. It’s also why a lot of people came to this game. No stat creep. No gear creep.
In fact, Guild Wars 1’s only true expansion raised neither the character’s max level nor the gear cap.
What you’re asking for would literally destroy this game for people who waited for it for years..and you’re trying to make it sound like it’s unreasonable.
Maybe you should have done a modicum of research before you brought the game. Your post would be like me going into the WoW forums and complaining that the game has gear progression.
It’s completely against the design decisions upon which this game was sold.
I don’t know how anyone could argue against this.
If Vayne doesn’t know how to argue against this it means it’s not humanly possible :P
Supported. Very helpful QoL update.
OMFG! LoL!
But Guild Wars 1 still wasnt’ DESIGNED around rewards. The rewards were THERE, but for the most part if you did a dungeon, you got a crappy gold that unless you were working for wisdom, you’d sell as an unid’ed gold.
There were rare drops in some dungeons like the bone dragon staff, and some people farmed them, but most never did. Maybe you got the rare black dye, white dye or lockpick, but most drops were crap.
People did farm, but they weren’t the majority. Most people just played the game and the drops were INCIDENTAL to the rest of it.
Just because YOU think in terms of drops doesn’t mean the game was designed for that to be the focus.
GW1 WASN’T designed around rewards, but you still needed them for gear progression. Either to replace the armor/weapons you had, or to sell in order to buy the armor you needed to move on in the game. NOT just the skins, but the stats. You’d have never left Drok’s and survived otherwise! (Henchies…no heroes, and I’m talking as the game was designed.)
You can get max level stuff for so cheap, it’s not relevant. It wasn’t drops. Max level armor was cheap.
Yes, max armor WAS cheap….but you still needed gold to buy it. Since tiered armor/weapons were designed into the game, you were required to buy them. And I don’t think you had the necessary gold to BUY a set if you were buying skills along the way…ANOTHER reason gold was required.
But you’re forgetting collectors along the way which would allow you to upgrade your armor for free, without gold. If I’m remembering correctly there were armor collectors, weren’t there?
So you could farm for gold to get your skills, and at the same time gather the items you need to trade with the collectors.
No, I didn’t forget the collectors. They ALSO required grind in order to obtain items from THEM.
So Guild Wars 1 required grind, is what you’re saying.
The problem is, I didn’t grind in Guild Wars 1 either, except for titles at the very end for the HoM. Before the HoM calculator came out, I didn’t grind at all.
I got enough money by playing the game, without farming or grinding. And I do the same in Guild Wars 2.
But Guild Wars 1 still wasnt’ DESIGNED around rewards. The rewards were THERE, but for the most part if you did a dungeon, you got a crappy gold that unless you were working for wisdom, you’d sell as an unid’ed gold.
There were rare drops in some dungeons like the bone dragon staff, and some people farmed them, but most never did. Maybe you got the rare black dye, white dye or lockpick, but most drops were crap.
People did farm, but they weren’t the majority. Most people just played the game and the drops were INCIDENTAL to the rest of it.
Just because YOU think in terms of drops doesn’t mean the game was designed for that to be the focus.
GW1 WASN’T designed around rewards, but you still needed them for gear progression. Either to replace the armor/weapons you had, or to sell in order to buy the armor you needed to move on in the game. NOT just the skins, but the stats. You’d have never left Drok’s and survived otherwise! (Henchies…no heroes, and I’m talking as the game was designed.)
You can get max level stuff for so cheap, it’s not relevant. It wasn’t drops. Max level armor was cheap.
Yes, max armor WAS cheap….but you still needed gold to buy it. Since tiered armor/weapons were designed into the game, you were required to buy them. And I don’t think you had the necessary gold to BUY a set if you were buying skills along the way…ANOTHER reason gold was required.
But you’re forgetting collectors along the way which would allow you to upgrade your armor for free, without gold. If I’m remembering correctly there were armor collectors, weren’t there?
So you could farm for gold to get your skills, and at the same time gather the items you need to trade with the collectors.
I don’t know how anyone could argue against this.
Easy:
-buying in extreme bulk doesn’t happen nearly as often as it warrants the time invested programming it
-buying in extreme bulk is very risky for the buyer, especially when there are wide differences in price listings
-buying in extreme bulk could produce some disastrous mistakes (imagine a player inadvertently adding one 0 and buying 900 more items than he intended)Buying 1462 cupcakes is painful? That’s 6 clicks of the mouse. That doesn’t even trigger the BLTC anti-spam error.
Except that when you buy cupcakes, they’re actually asking you to verify EVERY purchase. So if you have to verify the purchase, you can look at it, before you click yet.
And pretty much everyone who had a legendary has to buy 100 icy runestones. Every single person.
I don’t know many people going and buying 1 cupcake a time either.
First of all balances aren’t JUST made for WvW, they’re made for all forms of the game. You’re obviously centered on WvW and think about that, but Anet is thinking about the entire game, including SPvP, where that condition can have some interesting consequences.
Now it probably won’t do much for thieves, and maybe not much for mesmers either, but I can guarantee you some necros will be using it. Because necros are one of the professions people were complaining about.
And necros are quite happy with this patch.
Again, from a WvW point of view, staff necros are really awesome, but in PvE, necros had very few builds that actually worked. The idea was to create more build variety.
The same with mesmers, some of whom DO use condition builds, but didn’t have enough variety.
Just because you don’t see a reason for something, or it doesn’t particularly help WvW doesn’t mean that no reason exists for it.
I play spvp more than wvw so I can see both sides. A shortbow nerf may not affect me in spvp but it does in wvw where range in absolutely essential.
Just because people complain about a class doesn’t mean that it needs fixing. Necros are insanely powerful if played right and by buffing them, Anet is doing exactly what they fear – implementing power creep.
I’m curious to hear how a balance patch which fixes traitlines somehow funds their cash shop.
TIL resetting trait points costs gems.
All of these big content patches are ways of adding new things to the cash shop – backpacks, skins etc.
I don’t understand you. How is constant adjustment to make the professions as balanced as possible bad? That’s good, VERY good.
I was avoiding comparisons, but this is the best way to explain. There is a game called StarCraft 2 which is an actual, well respected e-sport. On release of the game, people complained about how OP terrans were and demanded nerfs. Blizzard (the developer) was not so quick to be pushed around by the community. Instead of giving in to pressure, they left the game mostly unchanged until players learned to how counter certain builds etc.
There is always the potential to become better and only when all other options are exhausted should patches be made.
@ OP:
You are right, they should stop trying to make money through the cash shop…it’s not like they live off their work on this game or something.If they wanted to have a f2p game, then the client should be free. GW operates on game and expansion sales, and should not depend on a cash shop. Unfortunately too many people are easy prey.
There were precious few necro builds worth anything, particularly in PvE, which does have a whole lot of this game’s population.
Anet didn’t change the builds the way people asked them too. They changed the builds to create more build variety. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say no one wanted a new condition but Anet is listening to the fans at the expense of what makes sense. If they’re listening to the fans, there certainly wouldn’t be a new condition.
Anet have no QA department.
Demonstrably false.
Going to pretend you were joking.
It’s demonstrably false, because we’ve seen and heard from people in the QA department. Whether they’re given enough time to adequately do their jobs might not be a reflection on them at all.
Anet have no QA department.
Demonstrably false.
Really? I’d like to know the QA that went into the initial release of Dragon Bash.
If there was no Q&A department, Dragon Bash would have had hundreds of bugs, not ten.
Content is coming QUICKLY so QA has less time. Simple logic.
Then logic would also dictate that the devs have to slow down and test things more thoroughly before releasing them.
I wouldn’t disagree with that. Though I think coming out with patches quicky does keep some people playing, I think people also need down time and changes to digest content.
Anet have no QA department.
Demonstrably false.
Really? I’d like to know the QA that went into the initial release of Dragon Bash.
If there was no Q&A department, Dragon Bash would have had hundreds of bugs, not ten.
Content is coming QUICKLY so QA has less time. Simple logic.
I’d love to see a PvE version of the sactum. It’s instanced now…why not a second instance without PvP. Then everyone is happy. PvE’ers can get their achievement without having to fight players, PvPers can gank each other to kingdom come…and of course, the PvE version wouldn’t have WvW badges or blueprints in the chest, but make it like a regular PvE jumping puzzle chest.
Anet have no QA department.
Demonstrably false.