Guild Wars 2

But if I keep answering you, the thread stays to the top and people will see it. You see, I’m not saying you’re wrong for wanting this, I’m saying that no one at Anet is going to respond. If they did, they’d have to respond to dozens if not hundreds of other threads. It’s just not reasonable. Particularly if they don’t have a response, rendering whatever response they give meaningless.

I’m not actually against you in this. I’m just thinking it’s way down on their to do list.

ExZee.8109:

Someone mistaking the term elitism here.

Your case has absolutely nothing to do with elitism. A group leader wanted to do speed farm CoF p1. The other group members joined thinking to do the same. While you may think 10 minutes is a decent time record, even pug groups can manage 7 minute runs with ping-gear-checked zerker warriors/mesmer that all know what they are doing. And pulling the Slave Driver is pretty much the basic of basics as the mesmer’s role in CoF p1 farming. While you may stick around for only a couple of runs, a lot of those groups farm p1 for HOURS, and a 3 minute difference per run is huge. So if the group leader’s not happy with your job, you should know you had every right to start your own group to enforce your own standards on speed farming.

He didn’t kick you because you weren’t as good as him (“I can do better than you, gtfo”), he kicked you because he thought you were the reason the group was not up to whatever standard he expected (“I can save time with a better mesmer”). This kind of reasoning has nothing to do with elitism.

Except that a simple explanation produces another mesmer than can do the job, instead of being an elitist and kicking someone for something that could have easily improved on the next run.

I don’t care if the guy does 10 runs or 1000 there’s no excuse for being an idiot.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

But if they took the time to meet and answer every complaint on the forums, think about how long it would take them to actually produce content.

Well they seem to be producing content at a nice pace in spite of taking time out to post bad jokes in random crap threads.

Okay guy sits at his desk, maybe having a coffee, he’s reading the forums, relaxing, he makes a joke. He didn’t have a meeting to make the joke. There was nothing to be decided. Answering you has ZERO to do with someone on their down time making a joke.

Are you saying because he didn’t answer you,. he shouldn’t talk on the forums at all ever for any reason? Cause it sounds like that’s what you’re saying.

He can come on the forums and talk to anyone he chooses. What he can’t do is give you an answer he doesn’t have. I’m not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

Again I’m not asking for an answer. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Someone could pop in and post random gibberish and I’d be happy. Literally I’ll something to the effect of “ohuohugigjigfwue” and be done with it. I just want confirmation that they care enough to at least look at the freaking thread. Heck I don’t care if they even read it, just click the kitten link and post something.

But you’re not the only person with a problem. You’ve admitted this yourself. And Anet can’t make a decision based on you. Once Anet says ANYTHING, anything at all, people will get the idea that they’re working on it, pretty much no matter what they say.

If they say they’re not working on it, well then that might kitten off other people. Just because you’d react one way doesn’t mean they’re going to base their policy of annoucing or answering things based on you.

What part of that don’t you understand?

You say that almost like you think the good people at Arena Net are adverse to foot-in-mouth syndrome. As I recall there are times it appeared they were actually rather fond of it. Given the number of times they have upset people with their comments when it would have been better to say nothing your argument doesn’t really hold water.

Yes, exactly. Given the number of times they’ve said something to upset people,. there are bound to be other people, you know bosses, who say stop talking, you’re only making it worse. It’s BECAUSE of the reactions to pretty much anything they say that they don’t want to say anything.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

What you can do with a hammer is interrupt. That’s one of the big uses of knockdown. You’re not just knocking a guy down but you’re interrupting his skill. If you are familiar with the enemy and you can knock them down before they use their heal skill or before they use a particularly powerful attack, it’s actually pretty powerful.

As Ive posted in another post, the knockdown/stun/daze to interrupt mechanics is nearly useless.

In Hammer warrior, for example, the knockdown is the fifth-slot skill. It has, if I remember correctly, a 30s cooldown. Attack skills usually have 8-20s cooldown. Even utility attack skills have 20s cooldowns. That means that had I even succeeded in interrupting him, he can cast the skill again and my knockdown will wont be ready. And that is if he is only using one skill. If it is a mob, by the time the skill is ready, it would be dead. If it isn’t, then I might as well have more damage.

Furthermore, the cast time is somewhere around 1s (i think, but i’m sure it’s not instant). The activation time for most skills is around 1/2 – 3/4s. That means the knockdown will never make it in time against most skills. Even for those few skills that have 11/2s activation time or so, that means between me seeing the onset of animation of the opponent casting, reacting and pressing the 5-key, I have 0.5 seconds. Human reaction time is scientifically averaged at 0.39 seconds. That is like a knee-jerk reaction. That is the level of machine that I must be to make this skill intentionally useful in those few cases.

True enough, the only times that I ever successful interrupted an opponent with Backbreak are 1.) by accident – I never intended to interrupt, I was just skill spamming, just so happens that enemy cast a skill AFTER I pressed 5; and 2.) I intentionally interrupted a casting which took more than 2 seconds…of an AoE skill that I could have just dodged anyway.

Its not all that powerful, really. I rarely use it. The only really powerful aspect of the hammer is the low-cooldown weakening Fierce Blow. Cripple, Push Back, Stun only delay the inevitable by a second or so. Cripple and Push Back is nearly useless even in the “protect” events (where you would expect them to be most useful) if I can’t kill the mobs fast enough before they kill the protected. Hence, goes back to damage.

But usually, most mobs that have powerful skills can only use them maybe once every 20-30 seconds anyway. They can’t use them every 5 seconds, with some exceptions. Again, it depends on who you’re fighting.

You’re not supposed to use knockdown to interupt a random skill. You’re supposed to use it to interupt a skill that means something, which is usually on a much longer cooldown…even for AI.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

But if they took the time to meet and answer every complaint on the forums, think about how long it would take them to actually produce content.

Well they seem to be producing content at a nice pace in spite of taking time out to post bad jokes in random crap threads.

Okay guy sits at his desk, maybe having a coffee, he’s reading the forums, relaxing, he makes a joke. He didn’t have a meeting to make the joke. There was nothing to be decided. Answering you has ZERO to do with someone on their down time making a joke.

Are you saying because he didn’t answer you,. he shouldn’t talk on the forums at all ever for any reason? Cause it sounds like that’s what you’re saying.

He can come on the forums and talk to anyone he chooses. What he can’t do is give you an answer he doesn’t have. I’m not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

Again I’m not asking for an answer. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Someone could pop in and post random gibberish and I’d be happy. Literally I’ll something to the effect of “ohuohugigjigfwue” and be done with it. I just want confirmation that they care enough to at least look at the freaking thread. Heck I don’t care if they even read it, just click the kitten link and post something.

But you’re not the only person with a problem. You’ve admitted this yourself. And Anet can’t make a decision based on you. Once Anet says ANYTHING, anything at all, people will get the idea that they’re working on it, pretty much no matter what they say.

If they say they’re not working on it, well then that might kitten off other people. Just because you’d react one way doesn’t mean they’re going to base their policy of annoucing or answering things based on you.

What part of that don’t you understand?

After viewing Coffeebot’s numbers, I can say that it looks like something is wrong. It won’t affect my game at all, because I still prefer the long bow to the short bow, but yeah it looks like something is out of kilter.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

But if they took the time to meet and answer every complaint on the forums, think about how long it would take them to actually produce content.

Well they seem to be producing content at a nice pace in spite of taking time out to post bad jokes in random crap threads.

Okay guy sits at his desk, maybe having a coffee, he’s reading the forums, relaxing, he makes a joke. He didn’t have a meeting to make the joke. There was nothing to be decided. Answering you has ZERO to do with someone on their down time making a joke.

Are you saying because he didn’t answer you,. he shouldn’t talk on the forums at all ever for any reason? Cause it sounds like that’s what you’re saying.

He can come on the forums and talk to anyone he chooses. What he can’t do is give you an answer he doesn’t have. I’m not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

projectcedric.6951:

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, there is a widely-held perception that damage is more important than anything else. Whether this is actually the case or not…

I believe this is true. The problem is that CC skills don’t do much of equal usefulness to their damage counterparts. Take Dim Vision by Necro in Diablo 2 for example (only one I can think of right now) – whole group of mobs literally cannot move because they cannot see you unless you are in melee range! Its a bit extreme, but that’s what I would call a real, useful CC skill on par with damage skills.

Furthermore, alternative weapon skills do not offer anything to counter weigh the lack of damage. So its not exactly that damage is more important than anything else, but because the alternative doesn’t weigh as much.

For example, I have two Warriors (I really do). One of them weilds a Hammer and Long Bow, and the other is the typical burst zerk-geared 2H and rifle. The 2H and its skills offers a lot of burst damage, while the Hammer (which is obviously designed for Guardians) offers CC in lieu of the burst damage.

But CC is near useless. What am I gonna do with a knock down skill? I cant hit the guy when he’s on the floor, which only lasts a couple of seconds btw. And I don’t have that great of a damage with the weapon either. So it’s like saying “you can use it, but you’ll suck”

However, IMAGINE… if the hammer gives bonus toughness, or a passive chance to stun enemies every now and then for a really long duration. Like 5 seconds. Even on champions. Or break people’s armor in PvP. Or imagine if at the cost of all that burst damage by 2H warriors, they receive more damage or their armor is reduced when and after using 100B (cost is long channeling wuttt). Then people will start to seriously consider between damage and alternative weapons/professions that offer other things.

What you can do with a hammer is interrupt. That’s one of the big uses of knockdown. You’re not just knocking a guy down but you’re interrupting his skill. If you are familiar with the enemy and you can knock them down before they use their heal skill or before they use a particularly powerful attack, it’s actually pretty powerful.

Barbelo.5916:

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Unless you specifically stated that you are a novice and then, if everyone agreed before the run started that it’s fine, you can not come here and complain about being kicked.
Speed runs are done for a reason. Most groups will run multiple times, and if you tell them beforehand they will (mostly) give you one or two runs to get your timing in and generally get better before expecting professional farming skills – that’s from my own experience with pugs.

The gw2lfg post asked for an “experienced” mesmer with full berserker gear. At that point I thought I was fairly experienced. The post didn’t say “must pull slave driver and timewarp fast” maybe because it sounds ridiculous. Since these groups only allow 1 mesmer I never got the chance to see another mesmer in action in these speed runs. I never would have known what I’d done wrong if I hadn’t asked. That’s what bothers me the most.

Like I said, you’re right to be upset. I wouldn’t play with those guys if they paid me. You’re better off without them.

But they may NEVER do something about it. That’s the truth. They may and they may not. So giving you that nod…it might not be the smartest thing to do. Now it may be on a list and they may never get to it anyway.

A few years ago, I was on a back surgery waiting list. I knew what number I was. But people who had emergencies would go before me. In the end, it took me 2.5 years to get back surgery. It didn’t help to know I was on the list, because my place on the list kept moving.

I assure you Anet knows of this of people are complaining about it. But if they took the time to meet and answer every complaint on the forums, think about how long it would take them to actually produce content.

I think it’s cool. I have a bunch of characters too that I like the look of. The truth is though, no one will like your characters more than you will. The pics are good btw.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

-snip-

So you’re telling me that Colin Johanson himself can pop into an obviously meaningless thread about a purely subjective problem one guy is having, and make a bad joke about a special NPC that appears and gives you a thumbs up when you hit max level, yet it is unreasonable to think that after months, and months of repeated threads, facebook posts, and tweets the multiple engineer players upset by this can’t get a simple “we are aware of your concerns?”

Give me a break. I’m not asking for a solution right this instant; I just want them to acknowledge the issue. Heck these guys will type paragraphs about mounts after saying hundreds of times that they are not putting them in, and yet they can’t take two seconds to type six words here. You can say I am overreacting if you want, but I find that both ridiculous and insulting.

I’m telling you Colin Johansen can say something like that, because it’s meaningless. What should he say if they just don’t know.

Hi guys, I know you’re looking for an answer but it’s too far down our list to even have a meeting about? Hi guys, just letting you know that we haven’t come to any conclusion at all about this and may not.

There’s nothing he can say without giving an expectation. Saying something off the cuff like he did affects nothing. Saying that we’re looking into something affects things.

They’re too completely different stories. How would you feel if he came on and said, sorry we have really important things to work on like ranger and necro balance, redoing dungeons for everyone. More new content.

Would that actually make you happier?

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think if you talk to anyone from any MMO, you’ll find out there are more casuals than hard core. For a lot of people, it’s a big big problem. That’s why raids in most games keep getting dumbed down till people actually bother doing them.

Again, you have little proof of this.

I always looked at it that MMO’s usually require a pretty good PC. Something built for gaming. I don’t think many casual players want to spend the money for a gaming PC. Most are content to buy $300 consoles or tablets.

I could be wrong, but it seems like a safer argument than “go talk to people in MMO’s and you’ll see I’m right.”

Crysis requires a pretty good PC but most MMOs don’t. GW2 needs a heftier pc than the norm but its not a graphics issue… its an optimization issue. Heck it runs fine on my 4 year old system on high detail.

As for what Vayne is describing, you can lookup what Ghostcrawler, the main dev for World of Warcraft, had to say. I’ll give you a little snippet from an article about raid difficulty:

The other interesting note he makes is that they don’t want to spend several months of development time on content that less than 5% of players will ever see. One can connect their statements that they “won’t ever make an instance as hard as Sunwell again” and then this statement together and form the conclusion that only 5% of players saw Sunwell.

As for hardcore and casual. Vayne is using a very different definition than you; the one used on most MMO forums. Seeing as you haven’t played any other MMO (except GW1 and 2, which don’t count) I can see why you don’t understand what he’s saying.

As for Dailys.. they help daily concurrency which isn’t a bad thing

Yep, I’m using the stock-standard hard-core MMO definition. Didn’t realize we weren’t on the same page.

When you put hard content in an MMO only a tiny percentage of the player base ever gets to it…and because of that, only a tiny percentage of the player base ever cares about it. For a long time it was like DoA in Guild Wars 1 for me. I didn’t care about it…and after I beat it once, I never cared about it again. It’s not my type of content. If it didn’t exist, it wouldn’t have changed my game at all.

But the thing is, there are all kinds of groups of people who aren’t competitive in PvE. RPer’s of course, soloers, of which there are more than many believe, immersion players like myself, people with busy schedules who just want to log on a kill stuff, people who use the game like a social networking site, and hardly play at all..you’d be stunned at how many different people play MMOs that don’t really care about hard content at all.

Look at AC. When it was easy, everyone was running it. Now it’s harder and on one cares. In fact the dungeon people run the most is the easiest, CoF path 1. There are Arah runs, but there are far more people who never finished or even attempted an Arah explorable mode dungeon than there are people who beat it.

Good idea! I second this.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Vayne.8563:

Actually I use a Rifle quite frequently as an engie, particularly in WvW, where I use it to stop people with a net, before switching to my kit. And in most of the open world, you really don’t “need” to use kits all the time. So you can certainly show off your rifle, if that’s what you want to do.

I’m not so sure that most engineers are as kitten off about this as you are. Then again, I’m not a big one for walking around with my legendary for everyone to see it. Mostly because I don’t care what other people think.

They’ll see it when they see it, and they won’t when they won’t. In fact, the second legendary I’m going for is an underwater weapon.

I’m not sure how many people this has really ruined the end game for, though apparently at least some of you are really upset about it.

Well I can say for a fact I’m not the only one making a fuss. And the situation is being exasperated a bit by Arena Net refusing to comment in spite of multiple threads, facebook posts, and tweets. Honestly would it kill them to say something? At this point even “tough luck, get over it” from an official source would be better than getting no word on the subject of any kind for nearly six months.

Anet isn’t one person. It’s not like a guy you can go up to and ask a question. When something like this gets raised, there would have to be a meeting. There might be disagreement at the meeting. Maybe nothing is decided at the meeting. You’re talking about one profession, probably the least popular profession too, so at best engineers represent maybe 10% of the playerbase if that. Then you have to ask, how many of those people are actually going for a legendary? 50%? Unlikely. Most people won’t even look at a legendary it’s too hard.

So maybe 1-2% of the games population are engineers going for legendaries (just a random number, might or might not be more or less, but you get the idea).

Of those going for a legendary like me, it doesn’t bother me. So what percentage of the games population is this affecting that Anet needs to get together, having meetings, make decisions and come to the forum to let you know? Do you realize how many legit issues are brought up on these forums every day.

The fact is, Anet may be discussing this and may not have reached any decision at all, because it’s probably not high on there list if priorities. Jump over to the ranger and necro forums. There are people raging about those professions all the time, not just the legendaries. In fact, even the engineer, people are raging about balance and everything else.

Do you really think this is the question that’s going to be highest on Anet’s list of priorities? Cause I don’t.

Fletch.3572:

OP, In my experience, I was hyped to start my legendary collection, then it started wearing on me, and eventually led me to kitten near despise the game =| It burned me out, I just wasn’t up to the task, and ended up hating the game for it (not the games fault, just my own in misjudging what I was really going for).

Since, I’ve taken about a month break, trying to get the motivation to come back “full time” again, it’s just really difficult with that sour taste I’ve given myself. Not a hate post, just know what you are getting yourself into, I thought I did, and that’s where the sour taste comes from.

That’s why I’m casually getting a legendary, rather than actively farming for it. I get a drop I need, I save and and most of the time don’t think about it. I do what I want, when I want. The other day, I was in the fractals, and boom, I got an onyx lodestone I needed. Sometimes guys in my guild sell me cores or lodestones they get at a discount. I’m over 40 of the 100 lodestones I need. I’m quite happy to play the game and take my time.

Just because you’re going to get something eventually, doesn’t mean you need to farm for it. Just take your time…relax, play the game, and eventually you’ll get what you need…or you won’t. But if you make it a “goal” it really can burn you out.

Actually I use a Rifle quite frequently as an engie, particularly in WvW, where I use it to stop people with a net, before switching to my kit. And in most of the open world, you really don’t “need” to use kits all the time. So you can certainly show off your rifle, if that’s what you want to do.

I’m not so sure that most engineers are as kitten off about this as you are. Then again, I’m not a big one for walking around with my legendary for everyone to see it. Mostly because I don’t care what other people think.

They’ll see it when they see it, and they won’t when they won’t. In fact, the second legendary I’m going for is an underwater weapon.

I’m not sure how many people this has really ruined the end game for, though apparently at least some of you are really upset about it.

Barbelo.5916:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry but this isn’t the level of elitism is the Guild Wars 2 community. This is one group of elitists in the Guild Wars 2 community. I’ve never played an MMO that didn’t have elitists. Even Guild War 1, not a true MMO, had elitists. It’s unavoidable.

You’re right to be kitten off. But please don’t paint the entire community with one brush. I think by percentage there’s less elitism in this game than most MMOs. You just got dealt a bad hand.

I hope so. I suppose you don’t really notice it until you’re the one being kicked. I have seen elitists in many FOTM parties that I let slide because it didn’t happen to me. I have seen members kick other members over gear issue and I didn’t do anything because I wanted to stay in the party.

You’re usually best of joining a guild of like minded people and running with them. It’s much better than pugging anyway, at least for me.

There are horror stories of elitism in every game I’ve ever played, but far less here than in most. That’s because the game is designed to be less competitive. There’s no DPS meters, so no one can look at your DPS and say you haven’t done your job. There’s no gear score to exclude you up front. Some people say the achievement point leaderboard is a step in that direction, but if so it’s a baby step. I’m pretty sure Anet isn’t trying to design a game that fosters elitism.

Did it skip your attention OP that we got an update four days before SAB? It was an April Fool’s Day joke it’s not the monthly patch.

Sorry but this isn’t the level of elitism is the Guild Wars 2 community. This is one group of elitists in the Guild Wars 2 community. I’ve never played an MMO that didn’t have elitists. Even Guild War 1, not a true MMO, had elitists. It’s unavoidable.

You’re right to be kitten off. But please don’t paint the entire community with one brush. I think by percentage there’s less elitism in this game than most MMOs. You just got dealt a bad hand.

nirvana.8245:

Its true. I WANT balanced PvP in WvW without having to grind for 12 months to equip all my characters with the stats I WANT. I also WANT WvW gear to be independent of PvE, but I guess this game doesn’t WANT that.

Except that Anet said from the very beginning that WvW was never supposed to be balanced for 1v1.

Someone said if I meet a player of equal skill and they have better stats due to ascended gear, they’ll beat me. This statement is only true in a complete vaccuum.

First different professions are different. Different builds are different. If a person’s build is made in such a way that it counters your build, even if you’re better, you’re going down. If your build depends on having lots of buffs and the other person is specced to debuff you, then you’ve got a problem even if you have three ascended rings.

The skills they use, the profession the play, the traits they take, their skill and FINALLY their gear are part of whether you win or lose. So the real premise is this.

I have to meet someone who has a build that isn’t particularly suited to taking me down and I have to have a build that isn’t particularly suited to taking them down. I have to be playing a profession that isn’t particularly thwarted by the other profession. I have to have about the same skill level of that guy, fighting was we are where we are, we have to be completely alone with no interferance from anything else (player or AI or siege weapon) and then, MAYBE if he has ascended gear and I don’t he can beat me.

Gear overall is a single part of the equation in Guild Wars 2. In other games, it’s a much bigger part of the equation.

docMed.7692:

Aeonblade.8709:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Chuo.4238:

Joy.

Cya, ArenaNet.

Way to take an absolutely amazing game (Guild Wars) and drop it into the furthest abyss possible.

Recommend firing whomever thought of leaderboards.

Competition keeps some people happy. If you don’t care, don’t look at them. Problem solved.

That’s not even the problem. The problem is breeding elitism through a ficitional useless number people will put stock in even though it’s just a measurement of time invested. The only reason to honestly have leaderboards is for PvP, any kind of quantifiable PvE metric gets grabbed and ran with. I weep for the future of dungeons if they come out with stats like dungeons ran, speed clear stats, etc.

Just a bad idea overall, going to cause fragmentation.

Heavin forbid people want to clear dungeons fast and have fun at competing in this fashion!

Do you really think you’re going to join a PUG that says “we’re going for the WORLD RECORD – please ping your gear!”?!

Any group that goes for the fastest clear time would be a set group of players looking to accomplish this, etc. PUGs would not be impacted. You can already see a “fragmentation” of this sort in FOTM. PUGs don’t run 50+ (least not most).

I don’t pug. It’ll affect guilds too.

Tim.9850:

More than likely they have less players playing, which allowed them to “increase” the server capacity. Otherwise they would have set the maximum size earlier.

But I’m sure I’ll get infracted again for stating that. Its a biased forum run here, that distorts the truth.

I’m from Tarnished Coast and we’re busy as hell, and they’ve increased our server size. Try again.

It’s all about giving people stuff to do. People want stuff to work on (some of them anyway). So they have dailies (which people complain about), now this. I’m in the top 1000 now, but I wont’ be in short order, because I won’t change my game to get points. And that’s okay.

With good content taking long times to program, without stuff like this people would get bored. Keep ‘em busy I say. Just as long as I don’t have to get involved. lol

Rising Dusk.2408:

People who play more are more likely to have higher achievement point totals. People with higher achievement point totals are more likely to have more experience playing their classes and to understand the mechanics of the game. People who know the mechanics of the game and understand their classes are more likely to contribute positively to their group. I would much rather have someone with higher achievement points in my group than one with lower if only because it increases the chances that they are competent, but I’m not going to kick them for having lower achievement point totals.

That said, people will invent reasons to cull the crop and be elitists. It’s going to be your AR total, the quality of your gear, the item skins you use, the class you play, your achievement points, or whatever. Elitists will find a way to be elitist, and any negative meshing of that with these leaderboards is far outweighed by the benefits of giving people some venue for healthy competition.

Keep the leaderboard options coming, ANet!

Unless you’re me. I’ve been playing since launch and still haven’t got a clue. lol

SneakyErvin.3056:

Vayne.8563:

If all you think about is winning fights, and optimal characters (by stats) then there’s nothing else for me to say to you. Other people really do get what I’m talking about.

People who play games like Skyrim or Dragon Age, they don’t worry about the same type of optimal you do. This is where the RPG part of the game really gets lost in the math. The fact that you see this as the only way to be optimal means to me that we’re playing very different games.

I just don’t care about stats all that much, and never will. But when my character looks the way I want him/her too, that’s optimal to me.

Please understand what I’m saying before commenting. I’m talking about optimal preformance, about making a character the best they can be when playing with or against others.

Want, need, force and grind all come into the big picture.

Us that want the best gear to be optimal, need to grind what we are forced into since there are few options. We set out to do what there is to do in the game to progress our character to be the best he/she can be. We want more options to do so.

You who dont care much about stats or optimal gear is the one that makes the optional choice. But the OP is making it sound like its us, that want to experience and have the best possible equipment to make our toons the most optimal we can, who are doing something thats “optional” and not forced on us.

Just the dailies alone is proof of forced content, since we cant decide to skip it some days a week without falling behind. It’s worse than a system where everyone can grind at their own pace.

You are making the active optional choice to not be part of the different things in the game. We play the game for what it is and take part in everything it has to offer. It’s no different to want BiS gear compared to wanting max level on a character. It’s all about forging your character, little by little as content is released.

Stats is the only progression we can work on right now that improves the effectivness of the toon. I dont want to grind gear, I would be happy if exo was the best possible gear, but since it isnt I want to improve my character(s) the way I can, which happens to be through ascended gear, it’s just not a choice.

This is in order to be optimal in situations where I play with others. Since thats how I am, I do it for the good of me and my fellow players, since its a cooperative game not only outside of WvW, where my server is still my friends.

And when it comes to WvW winning is all, thats what its about, winning is fun. So of course aiming for best gear for best possible odds on the outcome of a fight is a nobrainer for me.

See I can understand this in other games. In games were content is gated and you must have that to play. But in this game…I just think it was designed with a different thought process. People come to Guild Wars 2 with all the programming they get from other games. And yes, I get that people have this “need” to have this BIS gear, but I don’t think people have really adjusted to the different mindset that is Guild Wars. And it IS a different mindset.

The only place I could conceivably see BIS gear really mattering is in SPvP and everyone is equal there, at least in gear. PVe is cooperative not competitive, and WvW is certainly not balanced for 1v1..even though 1v1 can happen some of the time. More likely it’s zerg vs zerg and whether you have an ascended amulet or not is pretty unlikely to turn the tide of a battle.

I just think that if people had less preconceptions of this particular game they wouldn’t care nearly as much about gear. Gear in most games is far more important than it is here.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Researching isn’t effective for this game since there’s nothing to compare it to in terms of combat and how things are done. It includes regular mmo things but the combat and character aspects are totally different. You have to actually play it to understand what it’s all about.

I agree with this. This game has too many non-standard features to expect people to know what’s going on. I mean how many MMOs can you name where every character you create must be on the same server, even?

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

But, it would allow for competition without needing every player to be competitive. You yourself tout that the beauty of ascended gear is that you don’t need it. How would this be any different?

In either case, it isn’t really worth discussing. I think the point is that competition would need to be optional. Which I agree with.

Because when you make something like that competitive, it changes the nature of the entire player base. People start looking at things like gear scores. Things become more elitist. People in your guild want to do stuff faster, to get more, so they don’t have to do it as much.

Right now, when I do a dungeon, I’m HAPPY to take my time. Do you know I never knew about the hidden event in AC? I saw it today for the first time. I kill stuff instead of running past stuff.

By encouraging people to do things faster, or more skilled, you’re taking the fun out of it for me. Because I like a nice, relaxed, leisurely pace…and it wouldn’t stay like that. Eventually I’d just stop doing dungeons.

I didn’t speed farm or FFF in Guild Wars 1 for a reason.

And you tell other people MMO’s aren’t for them?! Min/maxing and speed runs are as part of MMO’s as they are ingrained in our human nature to want to do this bigger, better & faster.

I agree that one should make content that doesn’t overly stress the need to do this, and perhaps that was a flaw in my quickly thought out example.

However, if I may be so bold to finish our conversation with the same thing that started it:
“Perhaps, if you don’t like min/maxing and content runners, MMO’s aren’t for you.”

I don’t actually believe this, but I thought it someone appropriate given the circumstances.

I’m relatively sure there are far more casual MMO players as far as taking content casually and not being competitive than there are hard core players who want to compete. That’s why all the major encounters get dumbed down and the hard-core component get kitten off.

There really needs to be multiple levels of difficulty…like right now. I can run almost any dungeon at will…except Arah. Yes, I’ve beat a path of Arah, but without everyone knowing what they’re doing, you’re not likely to do well against Lupi. I can do it on a good day. lol

I just think that given what we’ve seen in other MMOs, the more challenging stuff doesn’t stay challenging.

I disagree about more casual players than hardcore players. But agree with the rest.

I do agree that most people don’t want to speed clear dungeons, although I wouldn’t say that everyone that doesn’t is casual.

I think if you talk to anyone from any MMO, you’ll find out there are more casuals than hard core. For a lot of people, it’s a big big problem. That’s why raids in most games keep getting dumbed down till people actually bother doing them.

Again, you have little proof of this.

I always looked at it that MMO’s usually require a pretty good PC. Something built for gaming. I don’t think many casual players want to spend the money for a gaming PC. Most are content to buy $300 consoles or tablets.

I could be wrong, but it seems like a safer argument than “go talk to people in MMO’s and you’ll see I’m right.”

Most MMOs have very low requirements. You can almost play WoW on a calculator. That’s an exaageration but not much of one. Most MMOs have very low requirements because they want to maximize the people who can play.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

But, it would allow for competition without needing every player to be competitive. You yourself tout that the beauty of ascended gear is that you don’t need it. How would this be any different?

In either case, it isn’t really worth discussing. I think the point is that competition would need to be optional. Which I agree with.

Because when you make something like that competitive, it changes the nature of the entire player base. People start looking at things like gear scores. Things become more elitist. People in your guild want to do stuff faster, to get more, so they don’t have to do it as much.

Right now, when I do a dungeon, I’m HAPPY to take my time. Do you know I never knew about the hidden event in AC? I saw it today for the first time. I kill stuff instead of running past stuff.

By encouraging people to do things faster, or more skilled, you’re taking the fun out of it for me. Because I like a nice, relaxed, leisurely pace…and it wouldn’t stay like that. Eventually I’d just stop doing dungeons.

I didn’t speed farm or FFF in Guild Wars 1 for a reason.

And you tell other people MMO’s aren’t for them?! Min/maxing and speed runs are as part of MMO’s as they are ingrained in our human nature to want to do this bigger, better & faster.

I agree that one should make content that doesn’t overly stress the need to do this, and perhaps that was a flaw in my quickly thought out example.

However, if I may be so bold to finish our conversation with the same thing that started it:
“Perhaps, if you don’t like min/maxing and content runners, MMO’s aren’t for you.”

I don’t actually believe this, but I thought it someone appropriate given the circumstances.

I’m relatively sure there are far more casual MMO players as far as taking content casually and not being competitive than there are hard core players who want to compete. That’s why all the major encounters get dumbed down and the hard-core component get kitten off.

There really needs to be multiple levels of difficulty…like right now. I can run almost any dungeon at will…except Arah. Yes, I’ve beat a path of Arah, but without everyone knowing what they’re doing, you’re not likely to do well against Lupi. I can do it on a good day. lol

I just think that given what we’ve seen in other MMOs, the more challenging stuff doesn’t stay challenging.

I disagree about more casual players than hardcore players. But agree with the rest.

I do agree that most people don’t want to speed clear dungeons, although I wouldn’t say that everyone that doesn’t is casual.

I think if you talk to anyone from any MMO, you’ll find out there are more casuals than hard core. For a lot of people, it’s a big big problem. That’s why raids in most games keep getting dumbed down till people actually bother doing them.

Shamrocky.5036:

That sounds awesome! When everyone can see how they stack against other players it will be rather fun.

Also, I’m rank 342 in achievements!

Cool deal…I’m in the 970s (forgot the exact number. lol). Gratz.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

But, it would allow for competition without needing every player to be competitive. You yourself tout that the beauty of ascended gear is that you don’t need it. How would this be any different?

In either case, it isn’t really worth discussing. I think the point is that competition would need to be optional. Which I agree with.

Because when you make something like that competitive, it changes the nature of the entire player base. People start looking at things like gear scores. Things become more elitist. People in your guild want to do stuff faster, to get more, so they don’t have to do it as much.

Right now, when I do a dungeon, I’m HAPPY to take my time. Do you know I never knew about the hidden event in AC? I saw it today for the first time. I kill stuff instead of running past stuff.

By encouraging people to do things faster, or more skilled, you’re taking the fun out of it for me. Because I like a nice, relaxed, leisurely pace…and it wouldn’t stay like that. Eventually I’d just stop doing dungeons.

I didn’t speed farm or FFF in Guild Wars 1 for a reason.

And you tell other people MMO’s aren’t for them?! Min/maxing and speed runs are as part of MMO’s as they are ingrained in our human nature to want to do this bigger, better & faster.

I agree that one should make content that doesn’t overly stress the need to do this, and perhaps that was a flaw in my quickly thought out example.

However, if I may be so bold to finish our conversation with the same thing that started it:
“Perhaps, if you don’t like min/maxing and content runners, MMO’s aren’t for you.”

I don’t actually believe this, but I thought it someone appropriate given the circumstances.

I’m relatively sure there are far more casual MMO players as far as taking content casually and not being competitive than there are hard core players who want to compete. That’s why all the major encounters get dumbed down and the hard-core component get kitten off.

There really needs to be multiple levels of difficulty…like right now. I can run almost any dungeon at will…except Arah. Yes, I’ve beat a path of Arah, but without everyone knowing what they’re doing, you’re not likely to do well against Lupi. I can do it on a good day. lol

I just think that given what we’ve seen in other MMOs, the more challenging stuff doesn’t stay challenging.

Maybe so. I don’t know for sure. What other explanation is there? Gold sellers?

clay.7849:

But, it would allow for competition without needing every player to be competitive. You yourself tout that the beauty of ascended gear is that you don’t need it. How would this be any different?

In either case, it isn’t really worth discussing. I think the point is that competition would need to be optional. Which I agree with.

Because when you make something like that competitive, it changes the nature of the entire player base. People start looking at things like gear scores. Things become more elitist. People in your guild want to do stuff faster, to get more, so they don’t have to do it as much.

Right now, when I do a dungeon, I’m HAPPY to take my time. Do you know I never knew about the hidden event in AC? I saw it today for the first time. I kill stuff instead of running past stuff.

By encouraging people to do things faster, or more skilled, you’re taking the fun out of it for me. Because I like a nice, relaxed, leisurely pace…and it wouldn’t stay like that. Eventually I’d just stop doing dungeons.

I didn’t speed farm or FFF in Guild Wars 1 for a reason.

Maybe because people haven’t bought the materials, but they’ve farmed them…had then just laying around. Some people have huge amounts of material they don’t pay for, so when someone puts one up, they can easily undersell because they didn’t pay for mats.

RebelYell.7132:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I have been talking about the mechanics of this game. And the time it takes to program content, which you keep ignoring. Sure time gated content isn’t “optimal” content. A new dungeon or new fractals would be better.

What are people supposed to be doing waiting around for that stuff? Time gated stuff is actually what keeps most MMOs alive, and I don’t think Guild Wars 2 is any exception. The actual mechanics are secondary to the need to find stuff for people to do while waiting for more content. Because no one can create content faster than people can consume it.

Well, one would hope that the content already available has a high level of repeat-ability outside the need for progression.

I agree, that if the “rides” that are in a themepark MMO aren’t fun to ride too many times, then time based progression is a way to artificially enhance the attractiveness of the ride while new ones are built. However, we still have a problem as to why the rides aren’t fun to ride as they are.

For example, why are many many dungeons largely ignored? Perhaps they aren’t fun. Perhaps, they don’t offer the same kind of rewards as other dungeons. But, those are also problems that need to be addressed.

Well, the fractals are quite liked but you can still only play your favorite song so many times, eat your favorite food so many times, etc. Unlike most games which can be finished in 20 hours, MMOs ask people to play for hundreds of hours…or people do whether asked to or not.

So yeah, its’ great to say content should be fun, but there will NEVER be enough fun content that’s infinitely repeatable. No matter how much I liked some missions in Prophecies, and I did, I couldn’t do them dozens of times in a month.

I don’t disagree with you about this.

Personally, I would love to see dungeons be less “linear” and more like the old MUD style dungeons that you can just get lost in. Unfortunately, in this day of Wiki, it would be a much harder task.

Balancing the loot system in this game would go a long way to fixing some of this too.

It would be doable in this game, I think, with normal zones. Get rid of the hearts and waypoints, and you have an EverQuest dungeon.

Having to get ressed, or otherwise get sent back to the beginning, would encourage people to play in parties that aren’t necessarily 5 man, and add an element of attrition that’s sorely lacking from GW2’s PvE.

I’m all for some harder open world type dungeons. As long as they remain optional and I can do them when I feel like, I’m there.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Let’s look at a basic scenario. Let’s say you need to kill 10 things to level up. Now, let’s say that those 10 things, no matter how good or efficient you are at killing them, is going to take 1 hour to level up.

Repeating something that you have mastered is boring. It is artificially gating you from something regardless of whether you have mastered it or not.

Another example: school. Let’s say that you spent the same time in class as Johnny. You did well enough to understand the material and went on to the next class or grade. Johnny, however, didn’t understand the material at all. Should he, then, go to the next class or grade level just because he spent the same amount of time as you in class? No.

So, how does this affect MMO’s? Well, let’s look at dungeons for example. What is the reward for mastering a dungeon? The dungeon armor. However, instead of making it about being the master of the dungeon, it is about completing it X number of times.

So, what we have is that someone who really has mastered the dungeon gets the same reward as someone who may have been carried by his 4 other teammates for doing the same dungeon the same amount of times. That isn’t fair either.

There are many ways to fix this. I would be happy to continue if you like.

Hmm, you are assuming that completing the dungeon takes the exact same amount of time for everyone.

A more similar analogy to school would be:

I, person A, takes 10 minutes to complete my final test.

Johny, person B, takes 2 hours to complete their final test.

Assuming we both passed, we both move on to the next grade. Even though I took 10 minutes and he took 2 hours. It is quite possible he failed and does not pass on.

In the case of the dungeons..

I take 10 minutes to complete a dungeon
Johnny takes 2 hours to complete a dungeon, Johnny dies 30x and has a crazy repair bill, in the end we both get armor. Johnny spends X x 2 hours to get his armor (assuming he doesn’t get better each run) and I get it in X x .16 hours to get my armor. I also did not spend gold on repair bills from dying over and over. Johnny may end up not even completing the dungeon a few times.

Long story short. We do not spend the same amount of time if we are on different skill levels to acquire the same amount of armor.

However, I understand your point about being carried. Perhaps you are correct. Dungeons should now be soloable and parties should be removed from the game. (Sarcasm). In all seriousness, how do you suggest they fix the problem of being carried through dungeons to acquire armor that other skilled players earn?

I think that there should be a better measure of “mastering” the dungeon than how many times you have run it.

Secondary objectives that add more difficult and more rewarding content are a possibility. Some way of working a “score” in to the dungeons that calculates something like content cleared vs. time taken to clear and has bonus points for separate objectives would be interesting. Your tokens rewarded could be based on your score. Similarly, you could add a leaderboard that shows the highest 10 scores – which might add the want to repeat the content just for getting your name in the top 10. Now, you have the added bonus of repeat-ability without needing to change much of anything – even rewards.

Definitely a game I wouldn’t be interested in playing. Sounds like you would like WoW raiding a lot.

Why wouldn’t you like it?

Because I’m past the point in my life where I want to be competitive. 19 years in retail in NYC, top salesman, manager of the year…always pushing, then into publishing, which is even more competitive in a lot of ways. I don’t play games like this to compete. I never did. I play games like this to explore, relax, enjoy a story, have fun…and that’s the difference between us.

I’d rather find something fun and interesting than do a challenging dungeon for loot. It’s just how I am. I’d rather play a game like Skyrim or Dragon Age…or even Guild Wars 1, than a game like Dark Souls, which is apparently more challenging.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Mobs who build scaffolding in caves, with narrow walkways and no railings, with multiple mobs capable of knocks when there’s no room to dodge — who cannot be knocked off themselves… what’s to hate there?

This really made me laugh out loud. lol

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Let’s look at a basic scenario. Let’s say you need to kill 10 things to level up. Now, let’s say that those 10 things, no matter how good or efficient you are at killing them, is going to take 1 hour to level up.

Repeating something that you have mastered is boring. It is artificially gating you from something regardless of whether you have mastered it or not.

Another example: school. Let’s say that you spent the same time in class as Johnny. You did well enough to understand the material and went on to the next class or grade. Johnny, however, didn’t understand the material at all. Should he, then, go to the next class or grade level just because he spent the same amount of time as you in class? No.

So, how does this affect MMO’s? Well, let’s look at dungeons for example. What is the reward for mastering a dungeon? The dungeon armor. However, instead of making it about being the master of the dungeon, it is about completing it X number of times.

So, what we have is that someone who really has mastered the dungeon gets the same reward as someone who may have been carried by his 4 other teammates for doing the same dungeon the same amount of times. That isn’t fair either.

There are many ways to fix this. I would be happy to continue if you like.

Hmm, you are assuming that completing the dungeon takes the exact same amount of time for everyone.

A more similar analogy to school would be:

I, person A, takes 10 minutes to complete my final test.

Johny, person B, takes 2 hours to complete their final test.

Assuming we both passed, we both move on to the next grade. Even though I took 10 minutes and he took 2 hours. It is quite possible he failed and does not pass on.

In the case of the dungeons..

I take 10 minutes to complete a dungeon
Johnny takes 2 hours to complete a dungeon, Johnny dies 30x and has a crazy repair bill, in the end we both get armor. Johnny spends X x 2 hours to get his armor (assuming he doesn’t get better each run) and I get it in X x .16 hours to get my armor. I also did not spend gold on repair bills from dying over and over. Johnny may end up not even completing the dungeon a few times.

Long story short. We do not spend the same amount of time if we are on different skill levels to acquire the same amount of armor.

However, I understand your point about being carried. Perhaps you are correct. Dungeons should now be soloable and parties should be removed from the game. (Sarcasm). In all seriousness, how do you suggest they fix the problem of being carried through dungeons to acquire armor that other skilled players earn?

I think that there should be a better measure of “mastering” the dungeon than how many times you have run it.

Secondary objectives that add more difficult and more rewarding content are a possibility. Some way of working a “score” in to the dungeons that calculates something like content cleared vs. time taken to clear and has bonus points for separate objectives would be interesting. Your tokens rewarded could be based on your score. Similarly, you could add a leaderboard that shows the highest 10 scores – which might add the want to repeat the content just for getting your name in the top 10. Now, you have the added bonus of repeat-ability without needing to change much of anything – even rewards.

Definitely a game I wouldn’t be interested in playing. Sounds like you would like WoW raiding a lot.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I have been talking about the mechanics of this game. And the time it takes to program content, which you keep ignoring. Sure time gated content isn’t “optimal” content. A new dungeon or new fractals would be better.

What are people supposed to be doing waiting around for that stuff? Time gated stuff is actually what keeps most MMOs alive, and I don’t think Guild Wars 2 is any exception. The actual mechanics are secondary to the need to find stuff for people to do while waiting for more content. Because no one can create content faster than people can consume it.

Well, one would hope that the content already available has a high level of repeat-ability outside the need for progression.

I agree, that if the “rides” that are in a themepark MMO aren’t fun to ride too many times, then time based progression is a way to artificially enhance the attractiveness of the ride while new ones are built. However, we still have a problem as to why the rides aren’t fun to ride as they are.

For example, why are many many dungeons largely ignored? Perhaps they aren’t fun. Perhaps, they don’t offer the same kind of rewards as other dungeons. But, those are also problems that need to be addressed.

Well, the fractals are quite liked but you can still only play your favorite song so many times, eat your favorite food so many times, etc. Unlike most games which can be finished in 20 hours, MMOs ask people to play for hundreds of hours…or people do whether asked to or not.

So yeah, its’ great to say content should be fun, but there will NEVER be enough fun content that’s infinitely repeatable. No matter how much I liked some missions in Prophecies, and I did, I couldn’t do them dozens of times in a month.

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Time based progression is good for two reasons. One it helps keep the economy in check. Two it keeps you working towards something. Having a goal in mind is very important for a lot of players.

Goals are important and are not reliant upon time based progression. Listen, I’m not saying it’s bad as in it shouldn’t exist. I’m saying it is worse than skill based progression. When given the choice skill should outweigh time.

In a competitive game, I completely agree with you. In PvP for example, I think skill should outweigh time. In PvE there should be challenges where skill outweighs time and there should be other options as well, for people not as skilled, because ultimately, those people are the people who pay for development of new content.

There are far more less skilled people playing MMOs than skilled people.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

And you keep using that word lazy design. Your opinion. I think it’s quite logical if “good” content takes time, to put in filler until you can get that good content out. Every MMO does it.

Ah, that is where you are wrong. Time based progression and vertical progression are just bad design. Why?

Well, like I said before, vertical progression is based on making things do the same, only with bigger numbers. The result, is that you gate content from players. Neither of these things are inherently good. They don’t provide more depth to a game. Horizontal progression on the other hand, requires more work, but adds depth. Depth is an inherently good thing about a game. Gating players from content is not an inherently good thing about a game.

Similarly, time based progression is even worse. Progression should really be based on skill. I could go in to why, but I know that most intelligent people will agree with this and that you won’t so why bother?

Why should progression be based on skill? Because you say so? In most MMOs, even in Guild Wars 1, you could progress quite far with no skill at all. None. Zero.

Running Shiro, 500 gold. You could get run through dungeons and finish that game and progress quite nicely.

People get carried through games all the time. If skill were truly central to progression, everything would have to be solo. No, in an MMO, most of them, you progress via time, not skill. The same is true of most games today, unless you’re in some kind of special tournament.

Time gating exists to slow down progress while companies work on content. In an ideal world, good content would magically appear faster than people could burn through it. Not so much in this world.

Again, you make the mistake of comparing what other games may have done well or not well and applying it to this game, rather than debating the actual mechanics.

Whether GW1 did something well or not doesn’t matter. Let’s talk about the mechanics themselves rather than say, “but other MMO’s do it too, so we shouldn’t question it.”

I have been talking about the mechanics of this game. And the time it takes to program content, which you keep ignoring. Sure time gated content isn’t “optimal” content. A new dungeon or new fractals would be better.

What are people supposed to be doing waiting around for that stuff? Time gated stuff is actually what keeps most MMOs alive, and I don’t think Guild Wars 2 is any exception. The actual mechanics are secondary to the need to find stuff for people to do while waiting for more content. Because no one can create content faster than people can consume it.

Milennin.4825:

Vayne.8563:

So? If you can beat everything in the game without it, why do you need it? This is where it’s in your head. You’re so competitive in your thought process, that you must have this higher number, but in reality it translates to a second or two per kill. Maybe. If that.

Why does it matter whether I can beat everything in the game or not? (even though I cannot, because the Jade Maw flat out kills me if I lack the Agony resist)
The topic is about need vs want.

When it comes to obtaining maximum battle performance it clearly points towards there being a need to have Ascended items, not a want.

But you can kill the Jade Maw without doing dailies, because before dailies existed people killed the Jade Maw, even at high levels, quite frequently. You needed rings and back pieces which you didn’t get from dailies, which is what this topic is about.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

And you keep using that word lazy design. Your opinion. I think it’s quite logical if “good” content takes time, to put in filler until you can get that good content out. Every MMO does it.

Ah, that is where you are wrong. Time based progression and vertical progression are just bad design. Why?

Well, like I said before, vertical progression is based on making things do the same, only with bigger numbers. The result, is that you gate content from players. Neither of these things are inherently good. They don’t provide more depth to a game. Horizontal progression on the other hand, requires more work, but adds depth. Depth is an inherently good thing about a game. Gating players from content is not an inherently good thing about a game.

Similarly, time based progression is even worse. Progression should really be based on skill. I could go in to why, but I know that most intelligent people will agree with this and that you won’t so why bother?

Why should progression be based on skill? Because you say so? In most MMOs, even in Guild Wars 1, you could progress quite far with no skill at all. None. Zero.

Running Shiro, 500 gold. You could get run through dungeons and finish that game and progress quite nicely.

People get carried through games all the time. If skill were truly central to progression, everything would have to be solo. No, in an MMO, most of them, you progress via time, not skill. The same is true of most games today, unless you’re in some kind of special tournament.

Time gating exists to slow down progress while companies work on content. In an ideal world, good content would magically appear faster than people could burn through it. Not so much in this world.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

then MMOs generally might not be for you

I thought ArenaNet was trying to push outside of the MMO market though?

Not only that, but MMO’s haven’t really changed much in the last 10 years. GW2 certainly hasn’t done anything game changing that we can’t find pieces of in other games.

Maybe, it’s people like you holding back the genre by saying that people who want better games telling everyone that this game isn’t for them.

Not really a constructive comment or argument if you ask me.

Sure Guild Wars 2 is trying to push outside the MMO market…but that doesn’t mean every single possible feature will or can change. People are always holding back progress. So if Anet made the perfect game, and no one played it, who would that help? lol

It’s amazing how many words you put in my mouth in that little paragraph.

Time based grind is just bad lazy design. Sure, it works, but it can be better. Logically, objectively, it can be better. That is all.

Also, don’t you think that it would be a bit ridiculous to suggest that if someone made the perfect game, no one would play it? That would be like saying that if someone made a perfect pizza, the best pizza in the world, no one would eat it.

The MMO market is stale, and your attacking players because they want something better, by saying maybe MMO’s aren’t for them, is the antithesis of innovation. But, we have been down this path before haven’t we? You seem to be against anything innovative because you would rather blindly defend GW2 and ArenaNet.

People have written amazing books that haven’t sold. And other very pedestrian books have sold very well. You can’t tell what people will and won’t buy. Often something comes out before it’s time and does badly when it might have done well at a different time.

And you keep using that word lazy design. Your opinion. I think it’s quite logical if “good” content takes time, to put in filler until you can get that good content out. Every MMO does it.

RebelYell.7132:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

then MMOs generally might not be for you

I thought ArenaNet was trying to push outside of the MMO market though?

Not only that, but MMO’s haven’t really changed much in the last 10 years. GW2 certainly hasn’t done anything game changing that we can’t find pieces of in other games.

Maybe, it’s people like you holding back the genre by saying that people who want better games telling everyone that this game isn’t for them.

Not really a constructive comment or argument if you ask me.

So if Anet made the perfect game, and no one played it, who would that help? lol

People with taste, who would likely not be “no one”.

I’m pretty sure people with taste represent the smallest percentage of the population. Reference some of the reality shows that have been popular over the past years. Good doesn’t necessarily sell. I learned that in the publishing business.

Milennin.4825:

Vayne.8563:

Because you thing stats are “the” way to progress, you think that you need these items. I don’t see stats as “the” way to progress, so I don’t. I’m quite happy to play my characters that don’t have any ascended gear at all.

I need these items to gain the best performance my character can possibly get. Fact
You can deny the extra stats all you kitten well want, but at the end of the day, having these items still boosts one’s combat performance.

I don’t want these items, because I hate grindy gear progression, but I need to have them in order to have maximum battle performance.

So? If you can beat everything in the game without it, why do you need it? This is where it’s in your head. You’re so competitive in your thought process, that you must have this higher number, but in reality it translates to a second or two per kill. Maybe. If that.

That’s what I’m saying. Two people go out and buy cars. One buys a sporty, eight cylinder one and someone buys a family car. But at the end of the day, when you’re driving to work, it don’t really matter.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

then MMOs generally might not be for you

I thought ArenaNet was trying to push outside of the MMO market though?

Not only that, but MMO’s haven’t really changed much in the last 10 years. GW2 certainly hasn’t done anything game changing that we can’t find pieces of in other games.

Maybe, it’s people like you holding back the genre by saying that people who want better games telling everyone that this game isn’t for them.

Not really a constructive comment or argument if you ask me.

Sure Guild Wars 2 is trying to push outside the MMO market…but that doesn’t mean every single possible feature will or can change. People are always holding back progress. So if Anet made the perfect game, and no one played it, who would that help? lol

SneakyErvin.3056:

Vayne.8563:

SneakyErvin.3056:

You cant seperate want, need, force and grind. They are all connected even if you (OP) like it or not.

The core of MMOs is wanting to improve your character. With want comes need, need is often connected to forced duties or grind. If you want to improve your character to give it top preformance along with your skill you NEED ascended gear even if you dont feel like grinding for it.

There is a limited way of obtaining it but it is a must if you want BiS gear for your character. It’s only optional in the open world. For instances, WvW and fractals you will want it to be most beneficial to your group (you honestly dont want worse gear when you can obtain better).

You are forced to do the daily each day to not fall behind, even if you dont want to, there is no option to catch up on missed dailies at the end of the week. 7 dailies per week would be better, they could all be done on sunday before reset. Less stress, more options day by day.

You are forced to do dailies to get laurels if you want ascended necks, no other way.

Optional things are cosmetical things. Things that increase your stats and lets your character preform better are not optional.

Okay…this is where some of us different. There are people playing this game that would rather have a cosmetic upgrade than something that gives them better stats. You’re right, everyone wants to “improve” their character but not everyone sees stats as the only or even best way to improve them.

I see the best way to improve my character as getting better at playing the game. The stats, they’re nice, but I think I’ll be a better player being able to get through some of the harder content with less stats, not more.

Because you thing stats are “the” way to progress, you think that you need these items. I don’t see stats as “the” way to progress, so I don’t. I’m quite happy to play my characters that don’t have any ascended gear at all.

No I’m saying stats are the only way to make your character optimal. No matter how you see it, you cant be optimal without the BiS gear. You can be good and beat other people who have optimal setups since their skill is lacking, but you yourself is not optimal till you have the best possible stats to compliment your skill.

Thats not my opinion, thats just the defenition of optimal. You arent optimal if you run in exo gear, since there is more optimal gear out there.

Cosmetic gear is however optional, since it’s not needed for optimal preformance. It’s fun and all and nice to look at, but it can take whatever time it wants before you get it, since it wont decide your characters victory or defeat.

People say x more % crit damage/toughness/vit/pow etc wont make or break a fight. But it can, it all depends on how much better you are vs whoever you face. Vs some its overkill and not needed, vs others its the skin on your teeth.

I prefer the overkill approach vs easier opponents, it means I come prepared for whatever I get pitted against.

It is however up to a person if they want optimal gear or not. But the optional choise is not in wanting it, its in not wanting it.

If all you think about is winning fights, and optimal characters (by stats) then there’s nothing else for me to say to you. Other people really do get what I’m talking about.

People who play games like Skyrim or Dragon Age, they don’t worry about the same type of optimal you do. This is where the RPG part of the game really gets lost in the math. The fact that you see this as the only way to be optimal means to me that we’re playing very different games.

I just don’t care about stats all that much, and never will. But when my character looks the way I want him/her too, that’s optimal to me.

caiomacos.1694:

Vayne.8563:

If the ONLY way you have fun is getting BIS gear on EVERY toon, and that’s it….then MMOs generally might not be for you, since in most games, getting BIS gear is far far more time consuming than in this one.

Anyway, why is it that you have to have every single toon in BIS gear this year? What’s the rush? What will happen if you don’t?

How do you know that there won’t be ten other ways to get BIS gear long before the year is up?

Because you have a very very specific playstyle, everyone should be punished? Nice.

Why do people always associate eternal grinding as a pre-requisite for MMOs? It is MMO (massive multiplayer online), not MGO (massive grinding online). This one game that was advertised as not being the same old eternal search for better stats – and had a pretty good release on that respect -, and what do people ask for? Gear grinding. And now we have this game becoming more and more alt unfriendly and build diversity unfriendly alongside an evergroing search for bonusses / stats. This is the mentality that is ruining this game.

I dont want to sound harsh, but its been repeated over and over on this forum how adding gear grinding is no addition of real content. Its just a cheap lame way to put players always on a search for something that dont make his gaming experience any better. Here is a list of real content that could / should be added:

- New areas. Southsun Cove as a nice addition. Is a good-looking area, karkas are cool (they are probably the most difficult non-boss open world mob in the game). The only real problem is that there are far few events to do there.

- New events (and remodel some of the events, especially those world events that are zerged and end up in less than 10 seconds)

- New dungeons.

- New professions & races.

- New weapons / skills.

- New activities (like Polymock Keg Brawl, and those regular contents that have been released each month – Living Story, Halloween, Wintersday, SAB)

- New PvP modes. Custom arenas are a need for a game that wants to be an e-sport.

And so on.

All those things add to the diversity of content the game can offer its players, making it a funnier long-lasting experience. Which is the exact opposite of what gear grinding provides. The longer it takes to level and gear a character, the less inclined people will feel to level alts or try different builds, which greatly reduces the diversity and enjoyment of the game.

I agree with everything you’ve said. Unfortunately, all those content types take time, a lot more time than Anet could have spent getting them out. They had to stop people from leaving, they did what they had to.

If you’d had that much money invested, and that much time, you might well have done the same thing.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Those last two post really sum up all of the concerns. No variety in skill bar options and no variety in how to play those bars. The class mechanics should really be called class gimmicks. They really limit the way the class can be played. the whole skill system and trait system needs such a massive overhaul.

Actually the first post summed it up, the second post was just agreeing without adding anything.

I don’t feel limited by most class mechanics. I certainly don’t feel limited by death shroud, for example, and I don’t feel limited by the warrior’s andrenaline and I’ve frequently found the engineer’s toolkit skills to be very useful (big ole bomb, anyone?).

People keep saying the engineer is worthless. Well yeah, I probably wouldn’t use my engie in top level content, but I have a guy in my guild who wins consistently at SPvP with his engie (much more than other professions he’s tried), and another guy who farms Orr with his engie, using the bomb kit, which is really quite useful.

Use your pistol to pull in a bunch of guys and bomb them to death. Actually to me that’s not fun at all, but he seems to enjoy it.