This is not far off from what I’m doing now, with a different focus. I am 20/0/20/0/30, using staff/gs in power/toughness/precision mostly. I like it but long term might go back to sword/sword and staff. Only because I really miss deceptive evasion, and I enjoy sword as well as gs.
The core of the build is strong. It’s tough and survivable, and can handle groups of mobs in Orr, without requiring good gear. The only time you die is if you’re completely overwhelmed, like when you spawn into a DE that is failing, or when you get a group with a deadly combo of CC. Last night I pulled a group that had knockdown, daze, pull, and a lot of AoE. It was a long fight but eventually I died. I would say the damage is fine but really you win fights by not dying, so it’s not a great farming build. By gearing for cond damage you will probably get better dps out of it.
I do use illusionary defense, and like it. Sometimes I will use debilitating dissipation as well. Even though I’m traited for shatters and use them frequently, having it means its not much of a waste when a clone dies. Also, since you have deceptive evasion and almost permanent vigor, you can keep popping out clones while shatters are on cool down. When you replace an existing clone that way it does count as clone death, so that could be useful for you. It gives weakness, bleed, or vulnerability, so when your target dies before you can shatter, that can be useful.
We make you do that on purpose.
Yes. The more people that see these videos the better. I’m getting the feeling that 80% of complaints about mesmers are coming from lack of understanding what skills ant traits actually do and how they work together. There are issues but not nearly as bad as a lot of people say.
A good place to start is building to traits that reduce cool down on your favorite weapons. None of those are a waste. Along the way try everything and see what clicks for you. One thing I did t know for an embarrassingly long time is that you don’t need to retrain to swap out the optional traits. You only have to retrain if you want to reallocate your trait points into different lines.
I never found a way to make a confusion build shine for PVE, but pretty well everything else worked out. A glass cannon solos just fine, but know that your first dungeon will be a shock if you aren’t traited for survival.
One more thing – while leveling I tried this in cond/precision gear and the GS was underwhelming. Now in toughness/power/precision gear the GS deals more damage, but staff gives so many boons it makes up for the less damage. I do have 10% of toughness as condition damage, which helps make up for the crap gear I’m using.
Clone/Phant: In Combat? Deceptive Evasion Working as Intended?
in Mesmer
Posted by: Voodoo Tina.4180
Yes it is annoying. What I find to work is waiting until my first hit lands and the mob has attacked me. Just attacking the mob isn’t as reliable. Once you have it’s attention though, you’re set.
Really both have good AoE, they just work differently. Luckily you can swap weapons. I am using both lately and they are a sweet combination. The GS takes them down faster, the staff takes them down more safely.
Clone > Clone > Chaos Storm > Phase Retreat > Mind Wrack > Mirror Blade > Berzerker > Pew Pew > Mirror Blade > Chaos Armor > Clone > Mind Wrack ….
By the way, if you’re combine the clone on dodge trait with the sigil that gives full endurance on kill, you’re obviously a clone factory from hell. Pull a big group and you can always shatter on cool down.
The easiest build would likely be a power/precision GS kite build. It’s still not as simple as run up and hit 1, but its a lot less work than using staff/clones/shatters to AoE groups of mobs.
I prefer staff, but the great sword is pretty fantastic. It does like you to have power, so if you’re all condition and precision, for instance, it will seem a lot less exciting than it is.
OP you have a lot going on in your post. None of it is new to the forums, a lot of your issues have been discussed already. Mesmers aren’t lacking in pve, it comes down to how you play. If tab, auto attack is what you are looking for, you want another profession.
The only place in the game mesmer struggles at all is in getting loot in zerged Orr DE’s. In every other part of the game, mesmer sails through. Solo PvE we take groups of mobs without thinking about it. Dungeons we bring skills that can make life easier for the entire team. PvP – forget about it. The devs can not give us bursty front loaded aoe damage on demand, because that would make us sickenly overpowered everywhere else, where we are more than fine.
The problem is the events, not your character. My simplest solution has been to do what I did for 80 levels – solo. Or run with a small group. Avoid the zerg. Where that’s not practical, put on a sword and do what all melee do – run to the spawn points ahead of spawn and spam 1. Drop Warden or Berzerker as soon as a group spawns, especially if you can target a vet. Its not perfect, but if will work until they address the real issue.
Also on phantasms . . . you have the choice to shatter or not. There are times it doesn’t make sense, and times it does. In a nut shell, if a mob is going to die soon, your phantasm will too, so shatter it to tag as many other mobs as possible. If the mob will be up for at least 1 attack cycle, bring out another phantasm. You can always shatter them at the end for the burst. If you’re fighting a boss, go ahead and get 3 phantasms out and let them rock – I like that with Warlocks especially, they crit like mad men.
Right.
OP says Claw Island is hard. Evo says its not. You say not way Evo, its not hard at all! Then you say you agree with OP, and say that he’s a bad player, because Claw Island is not hard.
TLDR: You disagree with yourself.
Distractions aside, if you run around in PvE auto attacking and occasionally using Chaos Storm, not shattering and not swapping weapons when needed, you’re going to think PvE is hard. It really isn’t at all.
Way to miss the point. He brings it up to contradict the OP. As did every other person to mention it.
Unless it has changed, that trait effects the shatter Distortion, not other skills or traits that give the Distortion effect.
No one brought it up as a mark of respect. Read the original post, he talks about how impossible it is for a Mesmer. We agree that it’s not hard, it points at his own problems playing the class, not that the Mesmer is bad at pve.
The tagging system need help. Mean time there are ways around it. Don’t tab target, click on something fewer people are smacking. You can reliably get off a shatter on most waves with practice. Also use sword and follow melee. You’ll see they lead the pack ahead of the spawn and stand in place swinging. Do the same and you’ll tag some loot.
In Zerg DEs I get loot. Doubtless less than some professions, maybe less than most. I really can’t say. But to say I get no loot would be exaggerating the problem. I get enough that my bags fill up and I need to stop zerging to sell, or just stop looting anything that’s not worth a lot.
My guess is that anet is working on a more fair loot tagging system, but they are working even harder on ideas to prevent zergs in the first place. It trivializes content they designed to be challenging, and gives rewards with almost no risk whatsoever. Aside from that, it’s boring.
It’s amazing how many people expect a complete rework because they decided to dislike the class. I suppose I could go to the engineer forum and complain that I did not enjoy engineer because its no fun, but since a lot of people clearly love it, I’ll just focus on playing what I do like. Mesmer. And I shatter, I don’t know why people say its pointless or counter intuitive. We are illusionists at heart, and shatter is the prestige.
Resolve only leaves my bar for dungeons. Soloing its the condition recovery that works best for me.
I agree they are cumbersome. Not bad if you only have one but a full bar made me sad. And if you trait them heavily you would want to bring a bunch.
If survival is an issue look for toughness. You have a lot more hp than an elementalist, take advantage of that. Also between clones (not phantasms), dodging, and circle strafing, you can be hard to hit in the first place. Traits can make a difference too. I noticed a big difference with the one that gives protection when you get regeneration.
If you like GS kiting is key. The phantasm cripples, which helps. So does the trait for cripple on clone death, since GS clones spawn on the target. For the sword, blurred frenzy is your best defense, time it right. Most off hands also bring something defensive. On pistol you have magic bullet, which can buy time. Also think about focus for the AoE pull/knockdown, or sword for the block.
For a different option, the staff is a great tanky weapon. Chaos Armor only works when you are taking hits. If you drop Chaos Storm on yourself and clones, you’ll last a lot longer. And if you auto attack close to your target you’ll stack might and fury on yourself – dead opponents can’t kill you.
No, Mesmer is not bad in pve. Bad would mean we struggle to kill mobs, which we don’t, or we die to one same leveled mob, which we don’t. Maybe you prefer some other class. It works better for you. Fantastic! Go play that. kittening on the Mesmer forums is a waste of electrons.
The battle of claw island was a cake walk for a Mesmer. I used a GS to kite, staff for AoE conditions and self buffs. Very honestly, if you are having trouble getting through story missions, look at your build or your play style. I promise you it’s not the profession. You’re just mesmering wrong.
Is Mesmer best, fastest, toughest, and most efficient? No, doubtfully. For any class to be best at everything is a bad idea anyhow. But bad at pve? Not remotely. I group plenty, and more often than not, they say they want to try Mesmer and ask about my build. Yeah, even engineers.
After playing with the changes for a few days, I can’t tell anything changed.
Normal solo fights were over before phantasm recharged. They still are. (An even in a long fight, by the time phantasms recharge, enemies are so close to dead you don’t want to waste a phantasm on it.) Phantasms were recharged by the time I could gather the next group. They still are. The slightly longer recharge means nothing.
In zerg DE’s, I would bring out a warlock and pump out two clones, and replace them on recharge. I still do. It takes a whole 5 seconds longer, give or take. I got gold then, and I still do now.
There’s a lot of over reaction to something that really wasnt all that bad.
Stack condition damage. If you are using sharper images, stack precision. Personally, I love toughness too. (Mesmers have top tier health, if you stack up a lot of toughness, it’s almost like wearing heavy armor.)
Interesting read. I wonder though if we are playing the same Mesmer. On paper your thoughts sound logical and well thought out. After reading it I thought Mesmer is not worth playing. Then I logged in and had a lot of fun playing mine. Honestly the only thing I could ask for is swiftness on a utility slot. That’s it, absolutely everything else rocks.
On the actual mechanic, I think it works very well as is. The proof is in the pudding. We have builds that shatter, builds that don’t, and builds who do or don’t, depending. It all works. I think the disparity between illusions makes the choice to shatter a lot more interesting – it’s not always going to benefit you as much. If I have three warlocks out, mind wrack is a lot less tempting than if they were great sword clones standing in AoE. If all illusions were created equal, it would always make sense to shatter, or never. The answer would never change.
Thank you for an interesting post, but I completely disagree.
A stack of vulnerability is always worth the same. 10 stacks are 10 times as good as 1. I hits are dealing 100 damage, each stack adds 1 damage. Nothing non linear about it.
I would not miss vulnerability if it went away. I don’t expect it will though. The staff is already my go to weapon 90% of the time in PvE encounters. The other weapons aren’t at all bad for the most part, staff is just that good. Single target it’s a bit slow, but it kills packs at virtually the same speed so it’s quite good for solo.
It’s primarily a support weapon, which is where vulnerability makes sense. If it were to be replaced by a non damage condition, more blindness or weakness wouldn’t hurt. But again, we are hardly lacking in the survivability department, so it’s not likely to happen.
Which specific clone is giving you trouble?
I don’t really follow. You don’t like illusions/shatter, but then make proposals to change them, not replace them. Even if anet took your advice, mesmers would still be required to work with that mechanic. Just your version.
Just like necros have to build with death shroud in mind. Elementalists have to work with attunements. Etc. illusions are our class mechanic, if you don’t like them, you don’t like mesmers.
Your staff ideas would make me cry. The bounce is what makes the weapon so sweet. You can stand close and soak up buffs, or stay at range and spread more conditions instead. Making it just AoE conditions instead would screw us badly. I wouldn’t complain about the unlimited swapping on swords, but sword doesn’t feel like it needs any kind of buff currently. If anything, scepter can be a bit plain.
But more than anything I’m not following how any of these suggestions would make I play more like an old school Mesmer any more than it does. For that, what’s missing is our conditional hexes. Phantasms were supposed to be physical hexes, but mostly they just do damage. They would be a lot more interesting if they actually did more than that – say they deal damage, but then also punish your opponent for taking certain actions. Duplicate, in a new way, skills like Wastel’s Worry, Wandering Eye, and Panic. That would bring back more of the Mesmer style than changing up the illusion mechanic.
I’m happy with my asuran racial skills. When soloing pve, I’ll usually bring radiation field and the defensive golem. Currently using a full set of runes of the Rata Sum for the extra radiation field. When fighting groups, that skill lets you and your clones tank pretty much all you can pull, using it with chaos storm and chaos armor is just sick. Pain inverter is also great, I just don’t have room on my bar usually.
I like it. I have to try something like this.
You want them to make us less flexible? No.
If you ask the same exact question that has been asked 50 times already, you’ll get the same answers that have been given 50 times already. Depending on who you ask, yes, no, or maybe.
You could have posted another thread, said your opinion or not said anything at all. This is just unnecessary. The people who wanted to answer answered and the people who didn’t said nothing. I just needed some more information on the subject and didn’t want to dig through old threads or look somewhere else online. I would rather hear from first hand experiences.
That is my opinion. The question is asked and answered almost every day. The treads are not old, and the experiences no less first hand. It would actually be less work for you to scroll down the page – and maybe even check the second page.
Like I said, same people, same answers. There is no consensus. You have to play one and see what you think. If you listen to me, you will believe Mesmer is the most fun profession in any MMO I’ve played. It is not perfect yet, there are some bugs you need to be aware of, scepter (for me) is lackluster, and a few skills are of questionable usefulness. There is a lot already posted about those issues that doesn’t need repeating.
If you ask the same exact question that has been asked 50 times already, you’ll get the same answers that have been given 50 times already. Depending on who you ask, yes, no, or maybe.
Phantasm recharges make next to no difference in PvE. If you were getting multiple copies of the same phantasm out during a normal fight (anything below champion, sometimes veteran) you don’t know what you’re doing with mesmer. So really, the longer recharge is next to meaningless for most fights. For a boss fight, he will still stay up long enough for you to have 3 out, it will just take a little longer.
Five second longer Chaos Storm in exchange for 5 seconds quicker Chaos Armor works out fine for me.
Signet change wasn’t mesmer specific.
What exactly does the mantra change do?
I use staff, which had 3 of the nerfs listed, and didn’t notice a change in my ability to chain pull groups after the patch. I was feeling like something was different but it didn’t change my effectiveness at all. FWIW.
Wait. What? Two of the best skills in the game for team play, and they need buffed? I wouldn’t complain, but the staff is an exceptional weapon as is. It’s not suffering for pve.
The asuran attitude towards other races would be racist and chauvinistic if it weren’t true. It is true, so they are simply stating fact when they claim to be superior.
I can agree with that, and point out that there is a difference between “efficient” and “fun.”
To the OP, one thing that shows the profession is working is that for every person who is down on something about it – shatters, illusions, this weapon or that trait – there is usually someone else who strongly feels exactly the opposite. There are a lot of ways to play the class, odds are good you will find a play style that works for you. Worst come to worst, you decide you like Engineer better.
It depends on what’s fun to you. Playing a Mesmer is like being the ringleader in a three ring circus. There’s all sorts of crazy stuff going on around you and you have to keep cool and make it all work together. It’s not easy to play, but for me it’s all kinds of fun.
People saying it sucks in pve are holding it to a different standard. They might be looking for fastest, easiest, quickest burst, or something else. It surely isn’t for everyone. But I will say after I team with people, almost always someone comments they want to try Mesmer now.
Is it best at pve? Maybe not. It is good though, and very, very fun.
I’m sure masquerade would look suitably charry.
I hated GS so I just leveled 10 levels with it. It’s better than I thought, but I still like sword/focus better. /pistol I’ve used too, it all works. I like staff for long to mid range, sword in close. With that combo I have something that works great even if I can’t dictate range.
It would be too much. Phantasms are all on off hands or two handed weapons. Having two phantasm skills between scepter and off hand of your choice would not make sense. I think what it really needs if for that auto attack to do something other than damage. They didn’t like confusion on the clones, maybe retaliation instead?
OK I get the complaint people have. Really I do. But I don’t think they are making the right complaint.
The issue is that certain DE’s have so many players present the mobs did to AoE before the Mesmer can do anything. So they want all classes to have the same kind of AoE so everyone can do the same thing and its fair. But isn’t really the case that we can AoE just fine everywhere else? Not the same, but we definitely get the job done. Like someone said already, a part of the problem is that the spawn points are too predictable. If there weren’t so many mobs spawning from the same points, AoE would be less of a concern. Also, if mobs are scaling to the number of people present, they aren’t scaling properly. If mobs melt in 1 sec there’s really no challenge, so the mobs should get tougher to kill to keep it from being a silly grind fest. If mobs were lasting longer, this problem would disappear.
would Mesmers be over powered if illusions persisted until out of combat?
in Mesmer
Posted by: Voodoo Tina.4180
Yes. Just shatter them. With traits you can have out three clones almost instantly, so having them live would make next to no difference.
In dueling you can get vigor on crits, and clones on dodge. With 50+% crit, (and over 70% with fury) you can dodge about any time you want. With your weapon clone skills on short cool down, and phantasms, it’s hard to run out. Also I got a sigil that gives full endurance when you kill an enemy, so that feeds the clone factory until everything is dead. You can start each fight with two dodges and a leap/retreat/counter > shatter if you want, and still quickly get out your phantasms and another clone.
When I change armors that can happen. One day I was chasing my own clone to check out his cool armor – when he popped my jaw dropped and I broke out laughing. At least I thought “that guy” had nice armor!
It sounds then like people say “Mesmer can’t AoE” when they actually mean “Mesmer can’t tag mobs in zerged DE’s in Orr.” Those are very, very different things. It would be a lot easier to understand if everyone said what they meant.
I’ve been at a few DE’s where the problem begins to show itself, but it hasn’t really bothered me. GS has been my weapon to use on those events, but of course its not AoE.
Sabbathius, thanks for taking the time for a detailed response. In my first post I already addressed the bouncing attacks and positioning. When you are solo, you can keep distance to make sure you don’t get any bounces. If you want the boons, of course move closer. And if you have allies, I don’t consider those boons wasted, since they help kill the mob, which is the point after all. The staff, with clones, puts out a lot of bounces. Traited, you do 3 per cast, three clones do two each for a total of 9 bounces every few seconds.
Sword attacks are all aoe. Not just sword 3. Like I said earlier, mobility is the key. If you stand in front of 3 mobs swinging you will get dropped quickly. Keep moving around them and they barely hit you. The amount of damage the sword puts out is huge compared to something like GS. I use the staff most, but if there is a pesky mob or two that managed to get stacks of vulnerability instead of damaging conditions, jump in and finish them off.
On shatters, its a question of timing. I shatter at 30% to give clones time to get there. If you have sword clones out, that’s not an issue.
Phantasms for aoe I agree – they are more useful for shatter fodder than reliable aoe. If you have the focus traited the warden is useful for reflection as much as his aoe damage. Which is not inconsiderable, once you learn to place him right. Into the Void is good at pulling back anything that tries to run from him. In pve, mobs generally don’t have the sense to, if you stand by him.
On all the other professions and their AoE abilities, I defer to your knowledge, I haven’t played any other classes past lvl 30 or so. But I will say that that sort of ability sounds very out of place with the concept behind mesmers. A ground targeted, spammable explosion? Makes sense for an engineer. Not as much for a mesmer. That isn’t to say there is no problem, and I don’t know how to fix that problem. I will say though that mesmers can AoE just fine, it just doesn’t work in a zerg environment at all.
I keep reading that on this forum. It makes me feel like a cat who grew up with dogs and doesn’t know cats can’t bark, so he does. Before that started popping up all the time I started pulling a minimum of three mobs at a time in pve, and unless I run into trouble, they tend to die all at once. In most cases I’m more limited by how many mobs I can round up than my ability to AoE them down.
Sword and staff are my usual choices for AoE damage. Sword does AoE attacks at close range, the staff effects bounce so they affect multiple targets. Shatter, chaos storm, and warden are all AoE.
Typical three pull is to first clump them up – if something is ranged drop feedback on it and pull the other mobs there. Run to the edge of feedback and phase retreat, roll forward, roll back (for deceptive evasion clones), let then stack a few conditions and shatter when the target is at 30%. Usually the conditions will drop them seconds later. If anything is standing, blurred frenzy and its done. I still have chaos storm, phantasms and utilities if I need them, but on a normal pull it isn’t necessary.
The only things I think are important is movement and distance. You keep moving, if you stop just stay there a second, then change directions. Circle strafe so you can always keep auto attacking. Range makes a big difference in staff spreading conditions. If I have 3 or more, I’ll keep my distance so winds of chaos isn’t bouncing back to me, that gives three conditions spread around the group instead of 2. With the sword you have to stay close in, again keep trying to get behind your target, you’ll avoid most hits that way.
Am I just unaware of how amazing other classes are? Or is this a case of people trying to use a weapon for something it’s not good at? Like GS/Scepter and pistol for AoE?
I think we can all agree aegis is awesome. It completely blocks one attack. Even if your clones die in one hit to trash mobs, they accomplish the same thing. Every hit they take is one you and your team don’t. And they essentially have no cool down, depending on your build, you should be able to pump them out as fast as your enemy can pop them. Clones are very effective at distracting attention away from you as you kill your opponent.
I miss Echo. A few others too but that would be awesome.
I also say don’t write off the sword. It does more damage and once you learn how, you won’t feel squishy. Circle strafing around the mob in melee range will let you avoid most damage while still burning the mob down. And you have defense skills for when you need it.
Most of the time when I’m looking at weapons I’m looking to see how the combo off each other and my utilities. I try to bring a variety of fields if possible. I am Asura so can bring radiation field for poison, we have several ethereal fields, and temporal curtain on focus is light. Then bring phantasms and skills that will combo off them. Warden and berserker whirl, torch skill prestige blasts, and we have several leaps and projectiles. Torch in particular is more useful with combos as its our only blast I think. AoE chaos armor, retaliation, and/or poison can be very fun.
I change up weapons each time I upgrade so I’ve tried it all. Not every combo is as fun, but a couple favorites are:
Scepter/sword with sword/focus – did this with the +50 precision while using sword trait. The scepter/sword gives two blocks with blind and daze, lots of clones and confusion. The sword focus gives our only working light field and a whirl combo. Try stacking confusion, dropping curtain, put warden on it for condition removal, leap through and gain retaliation. If he hits you he gets hit with confusion and retaliation, while you blurred frenzy and shatter in his face.
Staff and sword/torch – if you get the traits for torch skills clearing conditions and reduced cool down on torch skills, this works. The Mage still made me sad though. Drop warlock, chaos storm, leap in, mage, prestige, blurred frenzy, shatter.
Basically all the weapons can be used in combination to give you more options than just using one and mashing the same buttons over and over.
The craftable shadow armor set looks fiendish. You can transmute to make your silly lookin armor with good stats look brutal instead of fantastic. I haven’t seem it on a charr, but its easy enough to make, it should be really cheap.
Only to find out it was a clone’s cold dead hand, and I’m skipping away merrily, giggling like a loon.