Guild Wars 2

Recorded a video and checked timings.

Without traits:
Cast time 0.5 s: Swiftness applied (10 s)
After cast 1.35 s: Cooldown starts (15 s)

Total recharge time= 0.5 s + 1.35 s + 15 s = 16.85 s.
Time remaining when Swiftness ends: ~ 6 s (6.35 s)

With traits:
Cast time 0.5 s: Swiftness applied (12 s)
After cast 1.35 s: Cooldown starts (12 s)

Total recharge time= 0.5 s + 1.35 s + 12 s = 13.85 s.
Time remaining when Swiftness ends: ~ 1.3 s (1.35 s)

Seems consistent for me. Actual trait reduction ended up being 17.8%.

Tree.3916:

maha.7902:

it really doesnt make that much of a difference

This is pretty much true. EA is around a 2,000 dps increase for the full party. A DPS warrior is about 1,500 dps better than an EA warrior. 500 dps is either as significant or as trivial as you value it, though I would suggest in an average pug where people aren’t using good food and potions its pretty trivial.

I assume that 2,000 dps increase happens only with good builds. But with a bad party your own dps loss gets reduced a bit too (less Might / Vulnerability from party).

Without any calculations I would say that with crappy teammates EA will be a dps loss.

I wouldn’t be surprised if devs had secondary accounts for personal freedom. At least I would have.

I agree with OP.

Also, cloth armor should give 0 armor so I can one-shot everything.

And rifle should have ammo.

Anyways, the biggest and simplest change they could do is to make PvE monster skills go on full cooldown when interrupted.

That would still have the main problem with Defiance. Random people wasting interrupts. Also that would put a very low hard cap for interrupts. Lots of professions can easily interrupt every 10 – 20 seconds.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

—
-Defiant scales to the number of players around the boss, not the amount of players WITH CC skills. This is especially a problem in large scale battles where Defiant is propelled up to 30. It unfairly makes using CC harder than it should be.
—

Rest I can agree with but no this. Should bosses also lose health if people are not doing much damage? Or start dealing more damage if people use tanky gear? Point is, your choices should have a consequence. If your zerg doesn’t bring interrupts then you shouldn’t be able to interrupt anything.

However, I haven’t been able to think of a simple solution to replace Defiance. It has a very reasonable idea. For example in dungeons it’s often 5v1 so makes sense that you need ~5 interrupts to get something done. Problem is that this requires some coordination (and that some skills interrupt even when not wanted).

Interrupting could give Defiance stacks to the player so everyone could control when they want to interrupt. However this would allow a party to interrupt multiple times in a row. With current short encounters this would be pretty close to a stun locking (especially when using long interrupts).

Interrupting could give Stability / time based immunity instead. However this would basically render any surplus control useless without even fixing the coordination problem.

Defiance could also be removed completely but this would require serious encounter reworks. 5v1 would have to be changed to something more reasonable like 5v5 and/or bosses would need to have frequent stun breaks. It is doable to some extent but not every boss should have similar mechanics.

Perhaps simplest fix would add very powerful attacks to bosses which would remove Defiance stacks (basically screaming for interrupts) or have a very long cast time (3+) to give people time to use multiple control skills.

It’s actually pretty fair because direct damage also gets reduced a lot (glances, higher health, higher armor). However I would reduce the reduction a bit.

Mac.3872:

I am thoroughly disappointed with LS 2.

The new ‘map’ so small it must have taken 5 minutes to create. Same with the story-line.

And.. jumping? well at-least they don’t have to balance that…

Im not even gona bother running it again for a few poxy Achi points.

1/10 epic fail.

3/10, would not read again

It’s actually really easy to dodge. Just ask your Guardian to give Aegis and pretend you did something.

I haven’t tested it very much but it simply seems to use “Precision->Critital Chance” ratio of the target.

At level 80 it is 21 Precision per 1 Critical chance. At level 81 and 82 it’s 22 and at level 83 and 84 it’s 23 (based on wiki).

Against level 81 target your 100% becomes (100% -24.5% [Base + Fury])*21/22 + 24.5% = 96.5% Critical chance.

Against level 83 it becomes 93.3% Critical chance.

Celeste Lightblade.9253:

Wethospu.6437:

There is very likely no crit cap. I have yet to see any evidence of a non-crit against level 80 target with 100% critical chance.

Against level 81 and above your critical chance gets reduced.

Are you sure about that? I’m not certain myself – just remembering having read that somewhere.

@Miku, if you had to decide: What would you chose? Maybe taking the new buff-food into consideration (100 fero, 33% chanceo to get might on crit)?

I have tested 2700 hits with 100% critical chance. Zero non-crits.

So if you want to discuss this you better come up with some evidence.

There is very likely no crit cap. I have yet to see any evidence of a non-crit against level 80 target with 100% critical chance.

Against level 81 and above your critical chance gets reduced.

As long as you don’t have a line of sight to Huntsman, the birds won’t deal any damage. That’s what I did when I tried to solo it (wasn’t able to do it without lots of kiting).

Connection not good enough to watch anything but I assume you abused line of sight to prevent bird damage?

Unfortunately not the first. Done few months ago by a GS Mesmer.

I agree.

Next tournament should be played without armor. If any party member gets downed rest of the team must /dance until he gets defeated.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

—
I like spoj’s idea. After reading other peoples inputs on the subject, I think that giving people the option to hard res should be allowed. Some people may disagree with me, but I felt it was kind of lame watching FGS just have to give up because they lost ONE person in CoF P1. Res’ing that person was going to give Ren time to catch up regardless, I don’t think that losing one person should have all but guaranteed Rens victory in that path.

It also makes it similar to how speed runs were in GW1 (which makes me bias towards the idea). A full wipe = run over, but as long as one person is alive then the run should still be recoverable. (I’m sure someone is going to want to tell me that GW1 you needed a skill to hard res, so it was limited, but res scrolls became mandatory on every member of a party towards the end. )

No other opinions on giving teams the ability to ban 1-2 paths per match? This is done in most competitive games, such as counter-strike and starcraft, and MOBA’s such as LoL also have champion banning. Introduces another level of tactical play by giving teams the ability to ban paths that either they are really weak at, or that their opponent is really strong at.

You know, one day you have to let that GW1 go. :P

In my opinion the tournament gamemode should be kept as much as possible like original dungeons. Extra rules should only be added for a very good reason.

But path banning sounds like a very good idea for me. Letting teams to ban some paths would keep matches more even as teams could avoid their least known paths.

If there are lots of situation like that then why did you name which doesn’t even exist anymore?

But yes, encounters are different and wiping on them will be different.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Wethospu.6437:

There seemed to be quite big home path advantage (you will very likely win your path even against a better team) so if you mess up on your path it’s pretty much over.

SC did well in paths that other teams selected, and rT has had pretty much every Arah path 3 record I can remember, as well as being the first guild I can recall to see stealth past the mobs at the gate. That didn’t prevent them from choking and snowballing their mistakes, though.

I usually understand your logic and agree with your points, but I honestly can’t even find the beginning of either in almost all of your posts in this thread. I think there was probably some initial arrogance on rT’s part, maybe the feeling of “we don’t need to practice, we are already better than everyone else” also probably coupled with an actual lack of time to practice. I’ve also heard, pretty much since the beginning of time, that in a lot of cases each member of an rT group treats the dungeon like they are soloing, so you don’t have a group working together, but rather 5 people working alone in the same relative area. I don’t exactly know what happened, I was disappointed to say the least, because I know that plenty of members of your guild are good players. Whatever it was that went on, I don’t think that the no res rule is the solution, because I can see plenty of other potential problems that should probably be addressed first and would have been trivial if they had been taken care of beforehand.

Point was that 2 paths don’t really give you much room to catch up if you mess up bad during your path because the other team has probably practiced their own path a lot (which gives them an advantage, especially on “not so well known” dungeons).

All I’m trying to say is, that giving teams more chances to catch up would result in better games.

Jerus.4350:

Wethospu.6437:

How teleporting to the closest WP favor teams wiping on the first boss?

Just because SC didn’t mess up doesn’t they couldn’t mess up, even if they practiced million times. Everyone does mistakes.

In my opinion allowing people to recover actually makes it more competing (think of any sport).

I think that’s where the 2/3 paths comes in. Make a mistake on one, and you still have another to catch up on forcing a third path. Make a mistake or lose 2 paths and well… you’re done.

Thinking of any sport, lets talk MMA/Boxing, punchers chance, one bad move and you can find yourself on your back. Same thing happens in Wrestling, mess up your footwork and get tossed and pinned, game over. These sports don’t give you a second chance either other than rematches months later.

Many other sports are more forgiving but say football, deciding to blitz could work out great, but it could also leave a hole in your defense that gets exploited for a TD. I’ve always though SEC college football is the most entertaining football to me because one big mistake can be the difference in a low scoring defensive battle.

Soccer/Futball we’re seeing a mistake turn into a goal and being a difference maker.

There has to be punishment for mistakes. I think this extreme punishment makes the idea of slowing down and playing it safe a little more valuable. I do wonder, the teams that wiped, what could you have done to prevent the wipes other than “don’t make mistakes”? As someone mentioned earlier, would ele Glyph of Renewal have made a difference? Warriors saving War Banners? Is there anything that could have saved teams from some of the wipes they had other than don’t make mistakes?

There seemed to be quite big home path advantage (you will very likely win your path even against a better team) so if you mess up on your path it’s pretty much over.

Yes, in sport one bad move can cost you the game. But the game doesn’t usually end there. Team who made the mistake are given a chance for comeback.

You seriously think having to run back and kill the boss again (without FGS) isn’t a punishment? That easily costs you the match unless you can do the path much better than the opponent (or they mess up). But at least they would have a chance.

People talk about diversity. What I’m afraid is that all we are going to see is everyone taking those res skills just in case because of the absurdly high punishment. And everyone running one Guardian. And everyone avoiding any risks.

Even without “no res” rule there is a risk and a reward. If you wipe and have to go back to the waypoint, you lose a lot of time.

And as far as I know, this isn’t a race car tournament (and even in those if you lose one race there are usually 10+ more races left to catch up).

I can try it tonight but no promises.

No idea about gw2dungeons as Dulfy has to deal with the support.

How teleporting to the closest WP favor teams wiping on the first boss?

Just because SC didn’t mess up doesn’t they couldn’t mess up, even if they practiced million times. Everyone does mistakes.

In my opinion allowing people to recover actually makes it more competing (think of any sport).

It’s not very competitive either when team A does a little mistake and wipes and team B wins even before killing the first enemy.

To prevent later wipes being more punishing, teams should be allowed to teleport to the closest waypoint. Also teams should be able to wipe on their own (one player dies, if they want him back, all must go back to the waypoint). If that doesn’t feel bad enough (losing 30+ s on 5-10 min dungeon…) then some time penalty can be added (like wait 15 s – 30 s at waypoint).

I’m pretty sure Sparki & Slick is soloable. I tried it once and did pretty good, was just really tired from researching enemies to gw2dungeons.

Sanderinoa.8065:

I do agree that there wasn’t a lot of ‘recovering’, but I did see many oppurtunities in which it was surely possible, just like with our arah run, we couldve duoed it out if things went a bit better in the end.
Id rather keep the oppurtunity there for someone to pick it up, rather than to remove it.

Do you really think 2 guys could beat a full team when you were already a lot behind? (assuming the team doesn’t mess up really bad)

Rising Dusk.2408:

The real reason I participated and felt I could participate as a pug group was because of the wipe rule. It is an equalizer, because everyone makes mistakes, and part of the excitement was seeing if you could recover from it. The risk also makes it really edge-of-your-seat, which is one of the most important things about esports… Those moments of intensity.

Even mistakes including, I think the rule does something else to team compositions. Every single comp on every single team had a Guardian, and there was a lot more team bulk than is necessary for a lot of speed clears. I think it was a good balancer, and it made it really exciting to see people recover.

I’m not sure if I’d want to see it done the same way again, but I did really like this way. I think maybe a full restart would run into the same excitement problems. You wipe on the last boss and then what, you watch two teams desynced by ten-twenty minutes? That’s not very exciting either. I think that some matches ending in a clean sweep is just the way sports in general (#pvesports) work. Sometimes people mess up and that’s that. I’ll keep thinking of ways to improve it, though, but at a minimum I want a break before the next one. My nerves need a break. ;-;

Yes, it’s beneficial for weaker teams as it gives them a chance for auto-win (if opponent messes up too bad). But as I said before, I think winning should be based on skill, execution and tactics, not if you make a single slip at wrong moment.

Wiping already has a very big risk even without “no res” rule. If you wipe, you lose a lot of time and probably lose the match. But if you play really good you still have a chance to recover from it.

I didn’t watch every match but I personally didn’t see any of this “recovering”. Perhaps 1-2 guys went down but there was really no risk (easy to just pick them up). And when wipes happened, it took few seconds without any chance of recovering.

Sanderinoa.8065:

Honestly I have to say that Im quite a fan of the no death rule this time, it means teams need to think in more strategical terms and consider more defensive approaches. This allows for more innovativity and makes the tournament’s runs more varied.

At least for me team compositions seemed pretty same for everyone.

Anyways, things don’t have to extreme. If dying isn’t enough punishing alone we can allow only WPing (so dead people have to run back) or even force whole team back to WP.

realloc.5846:

I’m totally agree. In my opinion, wipe rule + fixed teams is what saved this competition from the 4 ele pure speedrunning teams so popular at gwscr.com

And yeah, i think that adapting and recovering when something goes off the rail requires much more skill than just running everything smooth. So there is no need to push the balance toward the last.

Still wondering what would happen if rTs mesmer noticed the blinking stealth icon on the warrior and supported him with veil / mass invi )

Expect no one can know whether pure speedrunning would have worked. A team with more safer approach might have still been better because they would get through without wiping.

Actually “no res” rule removed a lot of skill from certain matches. For example team afking at entrance would have beat rT. Would you call that team skillful?

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. If you take look at popular sport there are always plenty of chances for a comeback. Even if one of the team makes a massive mistake they still have a chance to win. That’s what keep it interesting.

I know you guys probably see current system so pro and hardcore with massive risks but actually it’s very luck based. One single slip can end the whole run even if your execution and tactic were much better. In the long run, I doubt this will be very fun for the players and the watchers.

Imagine how much cooler that ArahP3 rT vs FGS (or any other match where one team wiped) would have been if rT could have just respawned. They would have been behind. People knew they would probably be faster because it’s their path. But would it be enough to catch up FGS?

Purple Miku.7032:

—
I think I’m gonna have to disagree with you about the malrona wipe though; unless they didn’t intend to make it unblockable/unreflectable and it was confirmed as a bug, it’s everyone’s responsibility to know the boss’s mechanics and if they don’t then they should be punished for it (should have to restart from scratch imo). As for an NPC bugging out though? Idk… I’m not really sure how I feel about that one. Some of them are easily preventable but some of the ways that path NPCs can bug out are really obscure and seemingly random at times, so it’s kind of weird…

Getting wiped is an punishment. You easily lose 30+ seconds because of respawning, running back, missing cooldowns and having to kill the boss again. Having to restart at middle of dungeon would literally make your winning chances zero. Unless of course the opponent wipes which means your winning chances suddenly jump close to 100%. This again puts a lot emphasis on opponent messing up instead of your team playing better.

Also I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect every team to know every single mechanics of every boss so well that the entire run would depend on it. I doubt you know either.

First of all I want to say that DnT did a very good job for a first tournament. And congratulations for SC!

Purple Miku.7032:

Wethospu.6437:

Actually I’m pretty curious what was reasoning for that “no res” rule. I don’t really think it made the tournament any better. Even without the rule, wiping and dying would be really bad as it would slow the run down considerably. In my opinion the rule made the tournament way too much about tiny errors instead of good execution of creative tactics.

But perhaps the participants can share how they feel about it. Their fun is the most important thing about the tournament.

I’m pretty sure most people that read this will probably roll their eyes since we’re both in rT, but I agree with you for the most part. However…

Let me add a little modification to what you suggest:

When a party wipes, they must restart the entire path from the start — including crashing instance and reforming it. I was told that there was some sort of similar functionality in GW1’s dungeons (I wouldn’t know because I never played it).

This way it would still be the case that if a team wipes they’re almost guaranteed to lose, but I can imagine things really getting intense if the other team wipes afterwards and they’d have to catch up.

P.S. – I WANT A SOLO TOURNAMENT

That was my initial idea but then I realized that it would make wiping unbalanced. Let’s say team A wipes thrice at the first boss (3 restarts) and team B wipes at the last boss. Team A would probably win because their wipes have much smaller penalty.

Anyways, the bottom line is that as a viewer, matches where a team wiped/got stuck were boring to watch and matches where both teams were able to play were interesting to watch.

I would even make the other team wait if dungeon gets bugged (or clearly list every bug somewhere so people can avoid them). For example SEP2 Noob vs FGS, Noob would have waited until FGS had restarted and got back to the same point.

As I stated before, matches should be based on good execution of creative tactics, not knowing every little bug / boss attack (some bosses can kill the team really fast if you don’t know everything about it as seen on Noob vs Malrona).

And tank specs lose efficiency with 100% probability.

Here is my Warrior solo video: http://youtu.be/VdA9xfLsF2Y

Basically just circle around the statue in center of the room.

Actually I’m pretty curious what was reasoning for that “no res” rule. I don’t really think it made the tournament any better. Even without the rule, wiping and dying would be really bad as it would slow the run down considerably. In my opinion the rule made the tournament way too much about tiny errors instead of good execution of creative tactics.

But perhaps the participants can share how they feel about it. Their fun is the most important thing about the tournament.

For next tourney I suggest allowing teams to restart the dungeon at any time (if it bugs or wipe or just because they can). This would keep it more interesting for watchers when it’s not instant gg.

Nice games!

Kneels and spins (0.5 s)

I would prefer them to reroll trait hunt asap, refine it without any pressure and then put it back.

And rebalance costs of newer skills / traits. They shouldn’t be based on people who have played for months and have dozens of gold and skill points. If people have too many skill points add more and easier ways to spend them. For example skill animation customization (can be disabled in PvP).

Below level 60 Exotics have equal weapon strengths as Rare ones.

But as Frifox said, we are still working on this!

frifox.5283:

Wethospu.6437:

frifox.5283:

Ascended Force is 0.22% better than Exotic Night.
Exotic Night is 2% better than Ascended Accuracy.
 
 
 
 

… at level 80

So what is your final answer when most night dungeons are NOT level 80?

Oh are you saying there are other dungeons beside CoE?? lol jk of couse

I can’t give a final answer just yet because I’m still not 100% sure how weapon strength scales with level compared to core stat scaling. I have seen signs of both linear and exponential scaling and even an “x” factor (had to read gw2 memory to get data that actually made sense) so until I figure it all out for sure, I’ll refrain from making any serious claims

At least based on tooltips even at level 79 Ascended weapons have equal strength as Exotic ones…

frifox.5283:

Ascended Force is 0.22% better than Exotic Night.
Exotic Night is 2% better than Ascended Accuracy.
 
 
 
 

… at level 80

So what is your final answer when most night dungeons are NOT level 80?

They can make it randomized but I wouldn’t talk about challenge then.

I honestly can’t recall any attack which would be partially unblockable. Perhaps there are but then it would be specifically mentioned.

If only there was a site with enemy attacks listed.

Round 3:

Would you use an Ascended weapon with a Sigil of Force or an Exotic weapon with a Sigil of Night in a night dungeon? Why?

Smith.1826:

Nayaru.4716:

Hmm maybe it’s just people who haven’t played GW1 who don’t like this.

I played GW1 and loved GW1. I don’t like the new trait acquisition process. Why? Well for starters, GW1 is not GW2, and traits aren’t equivalent to elites or skills. The “process” in GW1 wasn’t all that complicated: “That guy has something you want, kill him for it.”

But mainly, I don’t like this change because it kills a large amount of freedom one had in PvE. I used to be able to progress my character through any manner I chose. Now I have to follow a handful of guidelines, and a lot of the content now feels “required”. Of course I don’t consider that an improvement: being required to complete certain content is way less horizontal than choosing any content.

Yeah people seem to forget this.

In GW1 you could have a decent build even without any elite skill. Try same in GW2 without any trait.

Similarly in GW1 you needed only to unlock a couple of elites to play properly (and everything could be done solo with henchies/heroes). In GW2 you need to unlock at least 7 things, even more if you want to change a build.

Defiant Stance.

Current findings for weapon strength scaling so far:

Data was gained from characters with exactly correct level (in level 30 dungeon a level 30 character and so on).

Until level 60, doesn’t matter whether you use Ascended, Exotic or Rare weapon as they scale down to same weapon strength. Until level 80, doesn’t matter whether you use Ascended or Exotic as they scale down to the same weapon strength.

Data: (from Ascended to normal, percentiles based on level 80 values)

Level 30:
516 Armor: 20%
Stat scale: 22%

293 293 294 278 261 212
27% 28% 32% 32% 33% 33%

Level 35:
614 Armor: 24%
Stat scale: 28%

362 362 362 343 323 262
33% 35% 39% 40% 40% 41%

Level 45:
885 Armor: 34%
Stat scale: 40%

454 454 454 429 403 328
41% 43% 49% 50% 50% 51%

Level 50:
1047 Armor: 40%
Stat scale: 47%

500 500 500 473 445 362
45% 48% 54% 55% 56% 57%

Level 55: (not sure how reliable as the area downscales to 56, not 55)
1217 Armor: 47%
Stat scale: 55%

541 541 541 511 481 391
49% 52% 58% 59% 60% 61%

Level 60:
1450 Armor: 56%
Stat scale: 62%

684 684 616 582 547 445
62% 65% 66% 67% 68% 70%

Level 70:
1923 Armor: 74%
Stat scale: 80%

821 821 739 698 657 534
75% 78% 80% 81% 82% 84%

Level 79: (some magic guessing)
2487 Armor: 96%
Stat scale: 98%

966 966 870 821 772 629
88% 92% 94% 95% 97% 99%

Is this real?

Why too late? No one has the correct answer yet.

No worries, I would be really surprised if anyone got a perfectly correct answer.

Next round (gw2dungeons doesn’t have all info):

Which of these enemies exist in FOTM? Where these (existing) enemies exist?

1) Ascalonian Healer
2) Ice Imp
3) Young Barracuda
4) Bone Fiend
5) Inquest Assassin
6) Murellow

Looks like someone has done his homework!