Guild Wars 2

shimmerless.4560:

Zenith.7301:

shimmerless.4560:

Zenith.7301:

shimmerless.4560:

Zenith.7301:

shimmerless.4560:

bhagwad.4281:

I’d just like to point out that we shouldn’t speak of thieves and mesmers in the same breath when it comes to stealth. The latter has one skill that stealths for three seconds and there’s no danger of an attack unlike with a thief. Then there’s mass invis on a 90 second CD.

Thieves on the other hand are what you really have to watch out for. Their attack from stealth is their bread and butter.

You can get pretty substantial stealth uptime on a Mes if you trait for it.

Phantasm mesmers can’t trait for it, and the mesmers who can trait for stealth are garbage builds anyways. Nobody is going to go into the Chaos line as it is absolutely terrible in the adept traitline and requires heavy investment to bear some sort of return.

I’d also love to know how many mesmers in spvp or roaming wvw (not 10-15man team fights) run veil.

Torch is an absolutely atrocious weapon due to the long cooldowns and the horrible phantasm.

You seem prone to gross exaggeration and baseless categorical claims. I’ve traited into Chaos just fine, for Adept you get access to Manip CDR (amazing for keeping melee distance with Staff trait) or a flat 10% damage reduction (on top of a line that already rewards ample Protection uptime). For roaming I lessened points in Dom and put into Chaos because with Dom you can kill someone faster but you have terrible scaling in uneven engagements and poor mobility. It’s just a trade.

As for Veil I don’t run it much (not fond of skills with high CDs). Torch can be great for stealth openers the CD is not that long

Now if you’re going to tell me this all hurts you in X or Y area then I’ll agree to an extent but I would never claim you can be and do everything with a 30/30/30/30/30 build. I don’t think any class has such a luxury. If you trait up to 30 then you will have to give somewhere but it’s far from unplayable, quite the opposite. What’s nice about Prismatic is that your bonus is applied to the stealth given to allies, so your MI lasts 6 seconds for them too.

You are giving something substantial. Either fury on phantasm or points in Inspiration or Illusions.

My point is thieves have to sacrifice a lot less in function to have useful stealth than mesmers do. Mesmer stealth baseline is pretty crap and nowhere near as accessible.

Mesmers are not Thieves and Thieves are not Mesmers, you are only concurring with what I originally said which was that you cannot do and be everything at once. If you want to run pure phant then yes it’s a very strict setup but it’s not the be-all end-all Mes build and you will not insta-down or get b-slapped through the monitor by big brother ANet for putting points into Chaos.

Or, you can run phantasm build without points in Chaos and do just as well roaming/1v1.

Phant scales even worse than pure shatter in WvW so good luck finding those noble 1 v. 1s outside of dueling clubs

If you can’t disengage then that’s an issue with you. I can roam with my phantasm mesmer just fine and it’s about the only build that can reliably kill competent thieves. My BM ranger, engineer, and ele can only stalemate since none of them have the raw burst to gib a thief in between revealed debuffs.

shimmerless.4560:

Zenith.7301:

shimmerless.4560:

Zenith.7301:

shimmerless.4560:

bhagwad.4281:

I’d just like to point out that we shouldn’t speak of thieves and mesmers in the same breath when it comes to stealth. The latter has one skill that stealths for three seconds and there’s no danger of an attack unlike with a thief. Then there’s mass invis on a 90 second CD.

Thieves on the other hand are what you really have to watch out for. Their attack from stealth is their bread and butter.

You can get pretty substantial stealth uptime on a Mes if you trait for it.

Phantasm mesmers can’t trait for it, and the mesmers who can trait for stealth are garbage builds anyways. Nobody is going to go into the Chaos line as it is absolutely terrible in the adept traitline and requires heavy investment to bear some sort of return.

I’d also love to know how many mesmers in spvp or roaming wvw (not 10-15man team fights) run veil.

Torch is an absolutely atrocious weapon due to the long cooldowns and the horrible phantasm.

You seem prone to gross exaggeration and baseless categorical claims. I’ve traited into Chaos just fine, for Adept you get access to Manip CDR (amazing for keeping melee distance with Staff trait) or a flat 10% damage reduction (on top of a line that already rewards ample Protection uptime). For roaming I lessened points in Dom and put into Chaos because with Dom you can kill someone faster but you have terrible scaling in uneven engagements and poor mobility. It’s just a trade.

As for Veil I don’t run it much (not fond of skills with high CDs). Torch can be great for stealth openers the CD is not that long

Now if you’re going to tell me this all hurts you in X or Y area then I’ll agree to an extent but I would never claim you can be and do everything with a 30/30/30/30/30 build. I don’t think any class has such a luxury. If you trait up to 30 then you will have to give somewhere but it’s far from unplayable, quite the opposite. What’s nice about Prismatic is that your bonus is applied to the stealth given to allies, so your MI lasts 6 seconds for them too.

You are giving something substantial. Either fury on phantasm or points in Inspiration or Illusions.

My point is thieves have to sacrifice a lot less in function to have useful stealth than mesmers do. Mesmer stealth baseline is pretty crap and nowhere near as accessible.

Mesmers are not Thieves and Thieves are not Mesmers, you are only concurring with what I originally said which was that you cannot do and be everything at once. If you want to run pure phant then yes it’s a very strict setup but it’s not the be-all end-all Mes build and you will not insta-down or get b-slapped through the monitor by big brother ANet for putting points into Chaos.

Or, you can run phantasm build without points in Chaos and do just as well roaming/1v1.

P/D is just fine in WvW. They’ve got S/D which isn’t D/P burst in spvp. In WvW venomshare thieves are actually useful.

The only reason thieves sort of do OK in spvp is because they can’t abuse stealth in spvp team fights since they have to fight over a point.

If spvp wasn’t about fighting over a node and stealth didn’t neut, P/D would be perfectly viable if not for other D/P thieves hardcountering you.

And thieves don’t have access to 110% crit damage like in WvW+food.

PistolWhip.2697:

Zenith.7301:

If by “certain things better” you mean “monopolize roles”, sure.

Because engineer isn’t a jack of all trades — it’s an aoe condition cc class, you might as well take away the rifle-- and a guardian is just a bunker. Might as well erase all the traits and weapons that don’t fit that, and if you’re going to pigeonhole necros into terror builds to be able to 1v1 instead of being food for thieves and mesmers, you might as well erase dagger and axe as weapons — why have them ingame if the presence of thieves and mesmers will make most offensive build options for other classes useless?

And then people like you complain about bunker. Fuqqing duh, it’s the only way those classes can survive being farmed by thieves and mesmers, and even then D/P and S/D thieves and mesmers can still significantly threaten bunkers — so with a single build they can do pretty much everything they want besides bunker a point, useful only for spvp, and in WvW where bunkers are useless outside D/D ele, thieves and mesmers become the choice roaming classes.

What I want to do to people like you who play mesmers and thieves is ban you from playing said classes, force you to play a mindnumbingly boring BM ranger or bunker engineer, while everybody gets to play thief and mesmer, and if you decide to play a ranger or necro and feel like running anything that is not a bunker — be forced to hopelessly die as any longbow or greatsword burst ranger would or dagger berk necro would.

Slow down there genius, I don’t like Mesmer and I don’t want to play one. I also quit maining thief a while back because they lacked a lot certain classes have, and it was go zerker or go home.

I play a warrior, and main it. Being one of the most under-powered classes in spvp along with Necro, I think your prejudice is misguided. This being said, thieves are very easy to fight, you just need to of played one I guess, contact a necro named High Warlord Sikari, hes a very good necro and using his build I beat a lot of D/P thieves.

Having mained a guardian too, bunkers are far easier to play, and I’ve never had issues with thief. Mesmers however, they are a different issue, but it isn’t their burst damage which makes them broken.

If you think bunkers are boring that’s your personal preference, I personally know many people who dominate using the bunker roles Engi, Ranger and Guardian can provide and they enjoy it a great deal. Sure I hate bunkers, but that’s because I play a warrior and they are painstakingly annoying to fight for me.

Those poor GS/Longbow Rangers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jo0joBlyg

I’ve seen plenty of zerker guardians, well played they are pretty kitten potent. I’ve also played a zerker engi before and wrecked face (albeit after learning the mechanics). Necro I haven’t tried zerker yet admittedly, but I’ve seen WvW vids of a full zerker necro beat every other class in 1v1’s.

My point still stands, Anet intends for certain classes to do certain things better, that’s why GC is preferable to a thief or a mesmer over a necro. Same way going Rabid or Shamans is preferable to other classes than Thief or mesmer.

You linked me a video of a ranger dueling a mesmer, who ran staff/gs, didn’t dodge the pet knockdown or interrupt his rapidfire with distortion or try to blink through him to break the channel.

Then it showed me a duel with a “tanky” D/D ele who used shocking aura against his longbow arrows, who ate a 6k maul (doesn’t happen on a tanky ele, not even with signets activated, sorry), who ate a hilt bash and randomly used armor of earth when he hadn’t even been stunned. Who didn’t use much of frost aura whenever the ranger engaged him in melee, and who didn’t try pressuring him when he was in longbow.

And in none of those duels did that ranger fight a D/P thief, let alone one that would pop Thieves Guild on him.

shimmerless.4560:

Zenith.7301:

shimmerless.4560:

bhagwad.4281:

I’d just like to point out that we shouldn’t speak of thieves and mesmers in the same breath when it comes to stealth. The latter has one skill that stealths for three seconds and there’s no danger of an attack unlike with a thief. Then there’s mass invis on a 90 second CD.

Thieves on the other hand are what you really have to watch out for. Their attack from stealth is their bread and butter.

You can get pretty substantial stealth uptime on a Mes if you trait for it.

Phantasm mesmers can’t trait for it, and the mesmers who can trait for stealth are garbage builds anyways. Nobody is going to go into the Chaos line as it is absolutely terrible in the adept traitline and requires heavy investment to bear some sort of return.

I’d also love to know how many mesmers in spvp or roaming wvw (not 10-15man team fights) run veil.

Torch is an absolutely atrocious weapon due to the long cooldowns and the horrible phantasm.

You seem prone to gross exaggeration and baseless categorical claims. I’ve traited into Chaos just fine, for Adept you get access to Manip CDR (amazing for keeping melee distance with Staff trait) or a flat 10% damage reduction (on top of a line that already rewards ample Protection uptime). For roaming I lessened points in Dom and put into Chaos because with Dom you can kill someone faster but you have terrible scaling in uneven engagements and poor mobility. It’s just a trade.

As for Veil I don’t run it much (not fond of skills with high CDs). Torch can be great for stealth openers the CD is not that long

Now if you’re going to tell me this all hurts you in X or Y area then I’ll agree to an extent but I would never claim you can be and do everything with a 30/30/30/30/30 build. I don’t think any class has such a luxury. If you trait up to 30 then you will have to give somewhere but it’s far from unplayable, quite the opposite. What’s nice about Prismatic is that your bonus is applied to the stealth given to allies, so your MI lasts 6 seconds for them too.

You are giving something substantial. Either fury on phantasm or points in Inspiration or Illusions.

My point is thieves have to sacrifice a lot less in function to have useful stealth than mesmers do. Mesmer stealth baseline is pretty crap and nowhere near as accessible.

AkiraZero.8514:

Zenith.7301:

AkiraZero.8514:

I’ve gotten 7 tickets in about 7-8k coffers, Id say I’ve probably been luckier than most but when it comes down to it, RNG has been better in this that some of the other boxes we’ve had.
Coffers are pretty cheap now so I probably haven’t even broken the 100g mark yet, which is pretty good for 7 unique weapons. On my Mesmer I’ve been collecting the pink glowing weapons and have like 5 so far all valued at 100g+ each and they are pretty common to see now. I’d say the RNG on coffers isn’t so bad, they are get-table if you put the money in, but not so easy that everyone will have them.

The pink weapons stay the same price for everyone.

The Jade Ticket Weapons can cost somebody 5 silver, 5 gold, 20 gold, or even 50 gold. They may even cost him 100g and not end up with tickets.

RNG does not value all players’ efforts equally. Some will have to do less to get it, while some will have to do a lot and not get it still.

Jade Tickets are also limited by holiday. The mats for mystic forge weapons don’t cease to be available at all. You don’t have to fear the month being over and not being able to get the weapons you wanted.

My point was that the pink glowing weapons cost 100g+ each and are pretty common (the majority of Mesmers I see these days have at least 1), while the jade weapons “can” be obtained for far far less than 100g (with some luck). While it may be entirely based on being lucky with the RNG gods, the fact I have managed to get 7 unique weapons for far less than 1 of my glowy pink weapons is pretty good!

You’re essentially gambling for something rare and unique, to make this so readily available to everyone and anyone takes away from its uniqueness.

To hell with uniqueness if it means a disparity in payment. I firmly believe that games shouldn’t discriminate their players when it comes to rewards if the discrimination is based on something like RNG instead of skill tests.

AkiraZero.8514:

I’ve gotten 7 tickets in about 7-8k coffers, Id say I’ve probably been luckier than most but when it comes down to it, RNG has been better in this that some of the other boxes we’ve had.
Coffers are pretty cheap now so I probably haven’t even broken the 100g mark yet, which is pretty good for 7 unique weapons. On my Mesmer I’ve been collecting the pink glowing weapons and have like 5 so far all valued at 100g+ each and they are pretty common to see now. I’d say the RNG on coffers isn’t so bad, they are get-table if you put the money in, but not so easy that everyone will have them.

The pink weapons stay the same price for everyone.

The Jade Ticket Weapons can cost somebody 5 silver, 5 gold, 20 gold, or even 50 gold. They may even cost him 100g and not end up with tickets.

RNG does not value all players’ efforts equally. Some will have to do less to get it, while some will have to do a lot and not get it still.

Jade Tickets are also limited by holiday. The mats for mystic forge weapons don’t cease to be available at all. You don’t have to fear the month being over and not being able to get the weapons you wanted.

PistolWhip.2697:

Zenith.7301:

Seth.4927:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Major flaw of stealth isn’t being able to attack while in it, it’s the fact that there is no counter whatsoever to it. Start giving out traits and added effects to AoE that allows a person to throw an enemy out of stealth, and the problem will be solved. For example, make it so that if you have a certain trait on, a Ranger trap can knock an opponent out of stealth. You’ve immediately given stealth a counter and made it easier to deal with somebody who has it. Another example would be making it so that a Warrior can knock them out of stealth with “Fear Me!”

Sure, just give Invulnerability a counter too since nobody enjoys when elementalists/guardians use this defensive skill without any counter.

What a stupid thing to say. Ele invuln is a 75 sec cd, guardian elite is longer. And if you’re going to talk bunker survival, a guardian bunker won’t gib anyone for even close to 4-6k crits in spvp. He hits like a wet noodle, and bunker eles as well won’t be touching the spike capacity of a GC mesmer or thief. The difference is the mesmer’s stealth and defenses are on 30+ sec cd’s.

D/P thief can stealth pretty much every 6-7 seconds, and renew his stealth by blasting the blind field while stealth if his target complicates his backstab attempt.

It’s cute and all to be an ele with a multitude of cleaves you can sort of punish thief stealth with, but most classes don’t have the kind of non-targeted cleave a warrior or ele has to try to punish stealth.

And in WvW where permastealth builds are not penalized it’s even more absurd as you can get a thief with 15-16k health that still hits like a spvp GC thief yet has more survival and crit dmg.

Try beating a well played D/P thief as a GC necro or ranger or guardian or engineer.

So 2 classes built for running Glass Cannon specs in mind, meant to be hard hitting gankers… Can’t be measured up to by an Attrition class, a bunker class and a jack of all trades?

Isn’t it a bit like saying, thief can’t bunker as well as guardian if both spec’d for it because a thief can’t contest points, guardians need a nerf. Same with necro’s, they have so many conditions while thieves only can marginalize on mostly 1 or 2 and 3 with this new patch if they take a specific venom. Why are thieves not a jack of all trades like Engi? With a multitude of versatile kits and such at their disposal.

I don’t think its fair to compare how effective classes built for high damage and evasive survival are at these two areas when talking about classes designed around attrition or bunker capabilities.

Anet said you can play how you want, not that every class would be as good as each other at everything, then what would the point in classes even be? Certain classes do certain things better.

If by “certain things better” you mean “monopolize roles”, sure.

Because engineer isn’t a jack of all trades — it’s an aoe condition cc class, you might as well take away the rifle-- and a guardian is just a bunker. Might as well erase all the traits and weapons that don’t fit that, and if you’re going to pigeonhole necros into terror builds to be able to 1v1 instead of being food for thieves and mesmers, you might as well erase dagger and axe as weapons — why have them ingame if the presence of thieves and mesmers will make most offensive build options for other classes useless?

And then people like you complain about bunker. Fuqqing duh, it’s the only way those classes can survive being farmed by thieves and mesmers, and even then D/P and S/D thieves and mesmers can still significantly threaten bunkers — so with a single build they can do pretty much everything they want besides bunker a point, useful only for spvp, and in WvW where bunkers are useless outside D/D ele, thieves and mesmers become the choice roaming classes.

What I want to do to people like you who play mesmers and thieves is ban you from playing said classes, force you to play a mindnumbingly boring BM ranger or bunker engineer, while everybody gets to play thief and mesmer, and if you decide to play a ranger or necro and feel like running anything that is not a bunker — be forced to hopelessly die as any longbow or greatsword burst ranger would or dagger berk necro would.

jalmari.3906:

Zenith.7301:

The best roaming classes happen to be your 1v1 counters. D/P thieves with shadow arts or S/D thieves with shadow arts. Phantasm mesmers. BM rangers, Engineers.

you can usually keel errything else though so it’s not that bad.

What’s the point of everything else when it’s these classes that you see roaming the most?

shimmerless.4560:

bhagwad.4281:

I’d just like to point out that we shouldn’t speak of thieves and mesmers in the same breath when it comes to stealth. The latter has one skill that stealths for three seconds and there’s no danger of an attack unlike with a thief. Then there’s mass invis on a 90 second CD.

Thieves on the other hand are what you really have to watch out for. Their attack from stealth is their bread and butter.

You can get pretty substantial stealth uptime on a Mes if you trait for it.

Phantasm mesmers can’t trait for it, and the mesmers who can trait for stealth are garbage builds anyways. Nobody is going to go into the Chaos line as it is absolutely terrible in the adept traitline and requires heavy investment to bear some sort of return.

I’d also love to know how many mesmers in spvp or roaming wvw (not 10-15man team fights) run veil.

Torch is an absolutely atrocious weapon due to the long cooldowns and the horrible phantasm.

Seth.4927:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Major flaw of stealth isn’t being able to attack while in it, it’s the fact that there is no counter whatsoever to it. Start giving out traits and added effects to AoE that allows a person to throw an enemy out of stealth, and the problem will be solved. For example, make it so that if you have a certain trait on, a Ranger trap can knock an opponent out of stealth. You’ve immediately given stealth a counter and made it easier to deal with somebody who has it. Another example would be making it so that a Warrior can knock them out of stealth with “Fear Me!”

Sure, just give Invulnerability a counter too since nobody enjoys when elementalists/guardians use this defensive skill without any counter.

What a stupid thing to say. Ele invuln is a 75 sec cd, guardian elite is longer. And if you’re going to talk bunker survival, a guardian bunker won’t gib anyone for even close to 4-6k crits in spvp. He hits like a wet noodle, and bunker eles as well won’t be touching the spike capacity of a GC mesmer or thief. The difference is the mesmer’s stealth and defenses are on 30+ sec cd’s.

D/P thief can stealth pretty much every 6-7 seconds, and renew his stealth by blasting the blind field while stealth if his target complicates his backstab attempt.

It’s cute and all to be an ele with a multitude of cleaves you can sort of punish thief stealth with, but most classes don’t have the kind of non-targeted cleave a warrior or ele has to try to punish stealth.

And in WvW where permastealth builds are not penalized it’s even more absurd as you can get a thief with 15-16k health that still hits like a spvp GC thief yet has more survival and crit dmg.

Try beating a well played D/P thief as a GC necro or ranger or guardian or engineer.

War Mourner.5168:

either I’m not in melee range, in which case it’s a single blind that gets cleansed almost immediately unless I’m not attacking, or I use DS fear and weakening shroud will sponge the blind (which will work in melee range as well because instant cast), or if use non DS fear in melee range, and for whatever reason don’t back out of the field, dagger 1 is hitting twice per second, and locusts and well will both be ticking once per second when up, so it’s fairly likely (but not certain) that I won’t have my cc blinded there either. If nothing else, I can golem charge so long as the golem isn’t in the field, as soon as the field drops, and even if they do get the stealth off they’re still CC’d and I can stand ontop of them and hit them/cc them more.

Not saying this is foolproof, it is was it would be OP, but it does work rather well – D/P thieves are the most common foe I see in wvw.

The time it takes you to autoattack to take that blind off, let alone enter DS, is more then enough for them to blast on the field. You’re fighting bad thieves that are stalling the blast.

What’s more, most good D/P thieves run S/D offset, so normally they put down an infiltrator strike circle for shadow return prior to switching to their dagger main when engaging so they can cc break at will.

He’s talking about amulets though, not WvW.

War Mourner.5168:

They still have to use HS to get stealth out of black powder, that gives you more then enough time to CC them after dropping the blind.

His BP is not only a blind field. It blinds YOU as well with a shot. So by the time you use an action to get the blind off he’s had more than enough time to HS through.

War Mourner.5168:

Kravick.4906:

I disengage reliably from necros on my dagger/dagger thief. In fact, I can’t remember a single instance of a necro being able to keep me in a fight, ever.

That’s because next to no one builds for it, you can fit a huge amount of CC on a necro if you choose to, and you can reduce the CD on a great deal of it, but if you don’t, then plenty of builds have more escapes/shorter CD’s then you can counter.

That’s why sword thieves are the only ones that you literally cannot catch, if they choose so, since they have a stun break/condi cleanse/escape on no CD, which a good thief will have ready to use at all times.

Nope. All a D/P needs to escape you is Black Powder. No amount of cc you spec into will change that. He blinds you when he casts it and immediately gets 4 seconds of stealth. From there he can either blast it againt to stack or shadow step away while he’s untargetable and spam hardseeker some more away from you.

The best roaming classes happen to be your 1v1 counters. D/P thieves with shadow arts or S/D thieves with shadow arts. Phantasm mesmers. BM rangers, Engineers.

Forzani.2584:

Zenith.7301:

Forzani.2584:

Zenith.7301:

RageExpert.2453:

Zenith.7301:

RageExpert.2453:

TBH the 900 range on shortbow isnt bad, you’re not even past 700-800 in most fights, for someone who likes to skirmish/roam. now for PvE this could potentially be a problem?

In zergs it is.

I like to roam and play in small groups, so i guess that is my opinion, i think zerging is terribad

It’s terribad but it’s the only way to win and it’s the most lucrative way to play wvw. Each zerg fight I can easily get 25-35 bags on my necro or ele. I’d be lucky to get the same roaming.

Roaming also doesn’t give much in WXP.

WXP and “loot” on an importance scale of 1 thru 10 is a -6 for me.

Fun fights >>>> Bags/WXP

Not everyone shares your interpretation of “fun”. Especially if that fun involves getting a certain skin that roaming won’t get you.

..and that is my point. Not everyone shares your interpretation of fun or the “importance” of a certain skin…..and you call zerging terribad, yet still do it to get that valuable skin. I would rather do something fun than do something I don’t enjoy just to change the look of a weapon or armor. Sounds like a job to me

To each their own though I guess.

Appearance and its customization is pretty much why many people play an RPG.

I can just go play a fighter or some other action game if it wasn’t important to me, and it’d be a whole lot more balanced to boot.

Forzani.2584:

Zenith.7301:

RageExpert.2453:

Zenith.7301:

RageExpert.2453:

TBH the 900 range on shortbow isnt bad, you’re not even past 700-800 in most fights, for someone who likes to skirmish/roam. now for PvE this could potentially be a problem?

In zergs it is.

I like to roam and play in small groups, so i guess that is my opinion, i think zerging is terribad

It’s terribad but it’s the only way to win and it’s the most lucrative way to play wvw. Each zerg fight I can easily get 25-35 bags on my necro or ele. I’d be lucky to get the same roaming.

Roaming also doesn’t give much in WXP.

WXP and “loot” on an importance scale of 1 thru 10 is a -6 for me.

Fun fights >>>> Bags/WXP

Not everyone shares your interpretation of “fun”. Especially if that fun involves getting a certain skin that roaming won’t get you.

And with wxp you can get a stacking buff for an extra 2500 hp, so it’s not entirely useless for roaming.

You only shatter for vigor when the phantasms have attacked and your summon cooldowns have refreshed. The vigor to the group is stupidly long, longer than a shatter cooldown.

Of course, it’s of little value to guardian or mesmer since they have vigor on crit, but not too bad for an ele who can forego renewing stamina for something more valuable like arcane power at 75% health or whatever, and same for warrior traits.

I never said mesmers are not bad, just that they’re not completely useless. Guardians and warriors are better, but I think nobody would debate the fact that guardians and warriors are OP relative to everybody else. At least the LH ele needs to give up support utility and run a completely niche spec to do damage. The guardian and warrior make no such sacrifices and their baseline durability is much better so they got way more room for error.

A guardian, of all targets to pick for backstab numbers lol. How many berk guardians do you see running around?

Morrag.7239:

Some of you, guys got your tickets. And are you happy with that? I got my tickets, but im not :/ Its a cheap system. Its not from “epic” quest or dungeon etc. Its just casino.

I’m not happy. I got them, but it soured the game quite a bit for me. I can say with certainty I won’t be buying gems from them for the next year or more.

RageExpert.2453:

Zenith.7301:

RageExpert.2453:

TBH the 900 range on shortbow isnt bad, you’re not even past 700-800 in most fights, for someone who likes to skirmish/roam. now for PvE this could potentially be a problem?

In zergs it is.

I like to roam and play in small groups, so i guess that is my opinion, i think zerging is terribad

It’s terribad but it’s the only way to win and it’s the most lucrative way to play wvw. Each zerg fight I can easily get 25-35 bags on my necro or ele. I’d be lucky to get the same roaming.

Roaming also doesn’t give much in WXP.

Yeah, I think shadow refuge should let you use skills while remaining stealthed in the field, but if you leave the field you should unstealth.

Before release they nerfed mesmer stealth skills to not stack, like Veil. But for some reason shadow refuge and Black Powder blast finishers were not subjected to this same nonstacking rule.

It’s even worse with D/P thieves because none of their offense outside backstab relies on spending initiative, so they can always pool initiative for a black powder>backstab sequence.

Gaidax.7835:

I think stealth could use a counter, yes. The problem is that stealth or not – thieves and mesmers are perfectly killable as it is.

Maybe a good option would be a 50% movement speed debuff while hidden, this way you would counter stealth by simply running away until it fades, without crippling it’s defensive use.

Useless, considering the thief can use steal or a signet or shadowstep to port to you and disregard the movement penalty.

A thief with a backstab in spvp will still take out 1/3 of a berserker’s necromancer health with a backstab.

The effects are not quite as extreme as wvw thieves, but the issue with thief design is that other glass cannons besides mesmer and thieves cannot exist because of them, since their spike is not survivable unless you go above 1400-1500 toughness.

Stealth pretty much allows a thief to land his burst without fear of retaliation or throwing it away. They should take out backstab and switch it for a utility skill, and switch the burst of backstab onto a non-stealth skill that you can’t use while stealthed.

I hope they don’t make dungeon skins tradeable. They’re the only thing in the game besides fractal skins that you can’t get by playing TP, so in fact skins like Arah skins are the only thing close to prestige there is.

Just make acquiring prestige items and mats required for them reasonable parts of dungeon drops.

The problem is this game is designed around the economy, not the economy designed around the game.

They won’t make dungeons drop reasonable amounts of lodestones to make legendaries, because then people don’t convert RL money to gems for gold to buy them with, and they make less money.

Reward systems need to suck so enough suckers will actually convert RL money into gems on their store.

Thieves in WvW can achieve 90-110% crit damage. In spvp the cap is at 62%, so most spvp thieves do not understand the capabilities of thieves in WvW.

Thieves in WvW are outright broken. You can build to have like 15-16k health and still land 7-8k backstab crits.

This thief is not so bad because he’s D/D and if you time the dodge when he’s casting cnd prior to the steal you will complicate his combo.

The real broken thieves in wvw are the D/P thieves who can permastealth reset, with condi cleanse, and still spam you with 6-7k backstabs every 5 seconds.

In spvp thieves are forced into team fights and to not abuse stealth so much due to point capping mechanics, but in WvW the brokenness of stealth and backstab is unleashed.

And screw whoever said that a thief can’t stomp if you have people around. A single black powder on top of you and they can’t do anything about a stealth stomp.

Substance E.4852:

Zenith.7301:

Half necros to compensate for the half guardians running around. Reduce boon meta and necro drops in importance.

And by half necros you likely mean zergs, because necro is absolute garbage for roaming.

Has nothing to do with the Guardians and everything to do with marks and wells being both powerful and able to be layered on top of one another to the point that an area becomes an instagib zone for anything not speced for pure deffense.

Dying because you got chain feared by 5 reapers marks in an AoE clusterkitten is only funny the first time it happens.

Step out of the wells and stop running melee trains.

Here’s my stats. 120g spent. 5500 coffers, 5 total tickets.

Bright.9160:

Zenith.7301:

It won’t change the meta because what imbalances the warriors against everybody else’s damage is the base numbers — the traits are just gravy.

You can play a warrior and any other class, at any level from 20-80 and notice a vast difference in damage output straight away, with only thief being remotely close.

It’s the numbers and modifiers on the skills themselves — no change to traits will change that. If you want to see a change to the meta, base warrior damage numbers will have to go down. Guardian utility like spirit shield and wall and boon sharing will need to take a hit.

But that won’t happen, because a )warriors are not good in spvp— the OP damage is all they bring, and b) Guardians rely on that boon sharing and utility for wvw and spvp.

They say they will make split changes, but they won’t obviously if you saw the recent patch where they gave pets universal increases in health and now say because of it they gotta nerf pets because of BM rangers. So it will affect even pve ranger who were already bad.

Except, it will change the meta. At least it will change our meta. We’re already incorporating eles in most runs right now. When the update launches and indeed, eles can pump fury, we’ll probably start running something like 1 Guard – 2 ele – 1 mes – 1 warrior. And the only reason we’d be taking warrior would be to be banner b*tch pretty much..

Eles could have already been incorporated prior to these changes. The difference still is not such that you’d replace a warrior or guardian for one, and ESPECIALLY PuG runs are not a place where LH eles will fare well.

I need people to keep up burning for me on my targets, which pugs often fail to do for me, so I have to carry signet of fire just to slap a long duration burn.

And quite frankly switching out one warrior for something else means little as the meta still revolves around bringing a warrior or two, and a guardian.

You can’t make an efficient group without a warrior or a guardian, and THAT’s a problem.

It also surprises me that people took this long to realize mesmers were overrated. I’ve been saying it since release. Their DPS is really bad in any scenario where lots of mob cleave happens, and that’s most PvE scenarios.

I will say that it’s a tad unfair to call them weak in dredge. Null Field helps a lot with stripping the dredge clean out of their 33% protection boons. A mesmer on the dredge boss also keeps him free of boons with just autoattacking. And if you’re bringing a phantasm mesmer they have easy access to vigorous revelations for group vigor without forcing anyone in the group to run deficient weapons to achieve it.

silvos.3092:

Zenith.7301:

No? The last thing I want to do with a mesmer or thief is port into them.

Because obviously there are only 3 professions in GW2 : thief, mesmer and elementalist…

And if I agree they are not the main professions I use flash to, flashing to them can still prove useful in some situation… To interrupt a stomp with gust for example you better be in contact with your target (and I’d had that ease the rezing after the interrupt…)…

Now I agree damages have never been something very important with that skill…But if you really only use it to go away from your target you are wasting it…

When I roam, since I zerg rarely, those are the professions I see most often.

silvos.3092:

Zenith.7301:

Oh, great, you get 500-600 more damage from Lightning Flash, so USEFUL. Especially to anything that isn’t DD and uses it to port away from people not TO them.

So you never port to enemy while using scepter or staff? Well you should try….

They let you the choice…it’s not for you to only use one option depending on your set…

No? The last thing I want to do with a mesmer or thief is port into them.

Churning Earth+Flash only hits noobs anyways. People who know the cast time for it will save the dodge till the last moment and gain immunity frames against it.

Blaine Tog.8304:

They also reduced Lightning Flash’s cooldown and increased its damage. And it’s still an instant skill, so it’s likely that you can still USE it while stunned, you’ll just still be stunned on arrival, which honestly amounts to much of the same thing. The Mesmer’s #2 skill on their staff works like that and the movement along usually buys you enough time to eat the stun and continue on your merry way.

I gotta say, if the supposed leaked patch notes are accurate, I’m actually really excited. A lot more Ele builds will be a lot more viable now.

Oh, great, you get 500-600 more damage from Lightning Flash, so USEFUL. Especially to anything that isn’t DD and uses it to port away from people not TO them.

RageExpert.2453:

TBH the 900 range on shortbow isnt bad, you’re not even past 700-800 in most fights, for someone who likes to skirmish/roam. now for PvE this could potentially be a problem?

In zergs it is.

LastDay.3524:

Zenith.7301:

LastDay.3524:

Necro’s problem is that the things they are good at aren’t needed in a good group in PvE.
It’s a flaw with PvE as a whole and won’t be fixed with a patch or two to our skills.

What needs to change is PvE itself.

Necro’s damage isn’t horrible, it’s just not as good as that of the Warrior and Mesmer.
Epidemic is great at Condition AoE, but for single target damage a Power build is much better despite being far behind Warriors.

There’s also a problem with Conditions being pretty good in sPvP but often bad in PvE and WvW.
In PvE due to killing speed and in WvW due to mass condi removal, Lemongrass and Melandru Runes.

None the less the upcoming patch is bound to add at least some DPS thanks to Burning.

Mesmer damage is among the worst in the game, what are you talking about? The only reason they bring a mesmer is for the time warp and temporal curtain/feedback.

If time warp is nerfed anymore, they’ll just boot the mesmer for a guardian, who does better damage himself with more group support.

I’m guessing you’ve never dueled a Phantasm Mesmer.
Their damage is insane.
4k damage per Phantasm attack or something close to it.
The Warrior’s is even higher, they lack in other areas so badly you only see them in PvE and WvW, though.

I think that the only thing holding them back is that Phantasms melt in AoE, which means Mesmers are better as duelists.

I’m guessing it’s different for Shatter builds.

Duels are not a representative scenario for damage dealing performance in team play, because as you mentioned they’re getting cleaved down by dungeon mobs that can 3-shot guardians, or they get cleaved by a zerg before they can even activate.

Faux Sheaux.6179:

Just change Jag for another cat. Heck, go canines. I run them anyways for the most part, so I’m barely even getting a hit with this pet nerf.

In fact, I think jags may still be completely viable. Run 0/0/30/30/10, use the “guard” skill (10s pet invisibility on 15s cooldown), and then you also have swiftness and regeneration. That’s dangerous as hell to fight against, especially when boon durations are 20% longer even than before and you have more health. The 200 hit is healing power and slightly lower pet damage isn’t the end of the world.

It is for pve rangers. They got no damage compensation for the huge hit to dps from pets.

It won’t change the meta because what imbalances the warriors against everybody else’s damage is the base numbers — the traits are just gravy.

You can play a warrior and any other class, at any level from 20-80 and notice a vast difference in damage output straight away, with only thief being remotely close.

It’s the numbers and modifiers on the skills themselves — no change to traits will change that. If you want to see a change to the meta, base warrior damage numbers will have to go down. Guardian utility like spirit shield and wall and boon sharing will need to take a hit.

But that won’t happen, because a )warriors are not good in spvp— the OP damage is all they bring, and b) Guardians rely on that boon sharing and utility for wvw and spvp.

They say they will make split changes, but they won’t obviously if you saw the recent patch where they gave pets universal increases in health and now say because of it they gotta nerf pets because of BM rangers. So it will affect even pve ranger who were already bad.

Terkov.4138:

Zenith.7301:

Ah, good to know you can win duels against warriors; everybody can. But this is a team fight game, and nobody wants your sorry ranger kitten in a dungeon when those BIG NUMBERS actually matter, or in wvw teamfights where you do nothing for a group besides barrage and muddy terrain that a staff ele or engineer doesn’t do better.

I already have my dungeon master (done only on ranger), so I don’t care about dungs. So you say ranger is weak in team fights? Ever played tPvP?
I don’t know about you, but if I really felt so bad as ranger (and I’m aware it’s still UP) I’d just reroll instead of wasting time here.

There are no longbow rangers in tpvp, nor will there be any with these changes.

And who gives a kitten about your Dungeon Master title. Some people like to do dungeons more than once, and efficiently. Like high level fractals.

P.S. 7 lv80 toons, I’m not wasting anything. I’d just like the option to play the kitten ranger toon without a handicap, because quite frankly thief/mesmer/ele/guardian is getting boring.

Ah, good to know you can win duels against warriors; everybody can. But this is a team fight game, and nobody wants your sorry ranger kitten in a dungeon when those BIG NUMBERS actually matter, or in wvw teamfights where you do nothing for a group besides barrage and muddy terrain that a staff ele or engineer doesn’t do better.

ShinraGuardian.8053:

Zenith.7301:

Doug.9628:

please edit your post to include the fact that if these notes are real, the SB received flat damage upgrades to compensate. The LB also received a lot of love. The sky is not falling

This is so stupid. All of the shortbow’s DPS is on the autoattack. You could increase the damage of the other abilities by 40% and it would still be a DPS loss over just using the autoattack.

What love did the longbow receive besides projectile speed? You’ll still be dead as soon as someone gets close to you.

I might be missing something, but as far as I can see in the notes, all that is changing with crossfire is its range. Crossfire doesn’t depend on its range to deal damage, so… why is it going to do less damage?

Because it means when you open a fight you have to wait longer to engage, and chasing people will be worse as they can get out of your range easier with a simple flash/shadowstep/blink.

And quite frankly to put this shortbow on the same range as thief, whose shortbow bounces on auto, has a far superior poison because it’s a combo field, has the best blaster and one of the best aoe in game, while having the best escape and can chain 4-5 evasions at a full initiative pool, is downright insulting.

A 10k channel on a 5 second spread is actually pretty terrible. I can crit long range shot easy for 3.5k so in the time it takes you to channel rapid fire I squeezed 4-5 arrows for more than that amount you have.

But feel free to believe your 10k rapid fire is any good when warrior volley from rifle does way more than that at a lower channel lol.

Kravick.4906:

Zenith.7301:

emikochan.8504:

Zenith.7301:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Zenith.7301:

Yeah….and you will definitely land that dark path on a non-braindead guy? And he wouldn’t cleanse/teleport out of the root?

Are you serious?

I land Dark Path atleast 94% of the time. Also, if he does cleanse/teleport out of it, then I can simply capture a point or he’ll still be in my wells with one less cleanse. Oh, you’re probably thinking of WvW, the place that balance doesn’t exist in.

Yeah, because spvp is so balanced by unnaturally forcing people to sit over points, artificially inflating the value of specs like grenade engineers and bunkers where in WvW those specs are made moot because people can MOVE.

But the game is balanced around point play, not free movement. spvp is way more balanced (if only because you can’t get ridiculously high stats + food + items)

Bullcrap. You can’t say a game format where lonbgow rangers and staff eles and hammer warriors don’t exist to be anymore “balanced” than the format in which they DO exist.

And quite frankly I see a lot more variety in group configurations in WvW, whereas every kitten time I queue for tpvp I happen to bump into a team with a mesmer and 2 eles.

And those “very high” stats are what allow my tough/vit/condi damage necro to thrive in wvw whereas I’m screwed in tpvp because I have to choose between toughness or vitality, instead of both as a class that gets trained 24/7.

I know the Tough/vit/condi stats exist on ascended items, but I haven’t seen armor with those stats. What stats are you using on your armor?

Vit/condi damage, no toughness but I put toughness jewels in it.

emikochan.8504:

Zenith.7301:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Zenith.7301:

Yeah….and you will definitely land that dark path on a non-braindead guy? And he wouldn’t cleanse/teleport out of the root?

Are you serious?

I land Dark Path atleast 94% of the time. Also, if he does cleanse/teleport out of it, then I can simply capture a point or he’ll still be in my wells with one less cleanse. Oh, you’re probably thinking of WvW, the place that balance doesn’t exist in.

Yeah, because spvp is so balanced by unnaturally forcing people to sit over points, artificially inflating the value of specs like grenade engineers and bunkers where in WvW those specs are made moot because people can MOVE.

But the game is balanced around point play, not free movement. spvp is way more balanced (if only because you can’t get ridiculously high stats + food + items)

Bullcrap. You can’t say a game format where lonbgow rangers and staff eles and hammer warriors don’t exist to be anymore “balanced” than the format in which they DO exist.

And quite frankly I see a lot more variety in group configurations in WvW, whereas every kitten time I queue for tpvp I happen to bump into a team with a mesmer and 2 eles.

And those “very high” stats are what allow my tough/vit/condi damage necro to thrive in wvw whereas I’m screwed in tpvp because I have to choose between toughness or vitality, instead of both as a class that gets trained 24/7.

Half necros to compensate for the half guardians running around. Reduce boon meta and necro drops in importance.

And by half necros you likely mean zergs, because necro is absolute garbage for roaming.

LastDay.3524:

Necro’s problem is that the things they are good at aren’t needed in a good group in PvE.
It’s a flaw with PvE as a whole and won’t be fixed with a patch or two to our skills.

What needs to change is PvE itself.

Necro’s damage isn’t horrible, it’s just not as good as that of the Warrior and Mesmer.
Epidemic is great at Condition AoE, but for single target damage a Power build is much better despite being far behind Warriors.

There’s also a problem with Conditions being pretty good in sPvP but often bad in PvE and WvW.
In PvE due to killing speed and in WvW due to mass condi removal, Lemongrass and Melandru Runes.

None the less the upcoming patch is bound to add at least some DPS thanks to Burning.

Mesmer damage is among the worst in the game, what are you talking about? The only reason they bring a mesmer is for the time warp and temporal curtain/feedback.

If time warp is nerfed anymore, they’ll just boot the mesmer for a guardian, who does better damage himself with more group support.

jdmThor.3806:

Boomstin.3460:

Tricare.2946:

Anyone who thought SB should have the same range as LB is fooling themselves.

Longbows range should have been 1500 without the trait , would have made more sense.
Anyone who thought otherwise is fooling himself.

this basically. they nerfed sb to make lb more viable. lol.

To make lb less crappy. It’s still nowhere near viable.

infantrydiv.1620:

I’m looking forward to this patch, I main a necro especially in PvP. The main problem I have with it is chain CC’s. I feel most vulnerable against engies and eles in general. I don’t understand why people here are complaining about fighting thieves…necro eats thieves… wells and marks hit them even in stealth and most of them are glass, well of darkness destroys heartseeker spammers. I already find the necro quit a decent 1v1 class, so this will be interesting

Then you’re not fighting D/P thieves with points in shadow arts for condi removal spam. If a thief is standing on your wells, he’s an idiot. He can bait your wells, reset, heal back to full, and burn you down.

His skills are not on cooldowns. Yours are.

Owl is not a HoM pet. It’s the White Raven.

When somebody leaked patch notes, and they were all about underwater changes, nobody believed them. And then we got that joke of an underwater patch.

Archaon.6245:

Zenith.7301:

because spike in this game is the use of 3 skills at most. Most often it’s as simple as a shatter or a backstab.

Actually a shatter combo has something like 5-6 chained weapon and utility skills+dodges…just saying…it’s really far from being a 1 key burst.

Oh, please, don’t act like magic bullet is part of the spike. You summon your ranged phantasm, switch to s/p or s/s and summon the second phantasm, leap to target, swap, and shatter while blurred frenzy.

Each of those in berserker gear is easily spiking for 4-6k damage.

ensoriki.5789:

Zenith.7301:

ensoriki.5789:

Zenith.7301:

ensoriki.5789:

They’re not going to straight out drop damage like that since the game needs powerful offense in order to shift point possession in a reasonable time span.

And which are the classes that can use it? Not the bunkers.

1. Doesn’t matter if Bunker, roamer, joe across the street. It results in longer TTK. The longer it takes you to die, the longer you can defend a point. The longer that point can tick an extra point.
2. Multiple professions have weakness including those that can bunker.
3. This allows other professions if not the support to significantly extend life outside of the downed system, again raising TTK. Crits can be a 200% damage increase. No crits can mean a major drop to the damage you would take (cutting it in half).

If you’re a glass cannon Thief for instance, and you weaken the glass cannon Mesmer with your proposed “no crits guarantee” than that means he can certainly eat all 3 mind wracks. Which would let that thief sit on a node for longer if he needed to. Longer he’s alive the greater window of time his team has to come assist him, extend the time it takes to flip that node even longer. If nodes don’t flip in reasonable times the score snowballs because so many ticks occur before the node flips. Mix in these spike stops with the downed system and Im no prophet but I bet lifespans increase heavily. Why such is needed when you can actively stop many spikes with blinds, and hard CC, i don’t know. On top of protection, aegis, evades? How many buffers do people really need.

Necros don’t have aegis, or blind, or protection. They’d don’t have vigor, and they don’t have stability.

And these patch notes aren’t giving them any boons as they already said they wouldn’t be getting them, and if you earnestly believe that slightly more life force generation will make any difference while they’re getting trained by spike classes, you’re full of it.

Ditto for warrior.

Uwot? They have all of the bolded, it’s generally not felt justified bringing those options for a multitude of reasons.
You know full well the difference “no crits” has, especially on a item set like Berserkers where it’s completely defined by them.
Their implementation is RNG, but it’s much more reasonable .

Not gonna talk with a thief champion. It’s quite obvious thieves quite like having a sandbag to get free kills with instead of being forced to go after a mesmer or ele.

You don’t have a blind outside or dagger offhand (which is used for transferring conditions) an elite. You don’t have stability outside an elite, and you sure as hell don’t have protection because spectral walk is superior to that garbage spectral armor in every way.

And you sure as hell don’t have vigor unless you’re being an idiot and suggesting that an RNG conversion from Well of Power is a reliable source of vigor.