Guild Wars 2

videoboy.4162:

Nike.2631:

cesmode.4257:

You might not like this answer but the person who has 8 characters can craft more things quickly, like spiritwood for example, than the guy with just one character.

Um… you know that the once a day limit on spirit wood is account wide, yes?

My Artificer and Huntsman regularly fought over the privilege of which of them would get the crafting XP for the day for that item.

Spirit Wood doesn’t have a time gate. Not sure why he used it in his example.

Dur, you’re right on that haha. Ok, the glob of spirit residue…

In the context of time gating and considering single vs multiple chars..(whether or not the time gate is applied as account wide or character), a person with multiple characters could always craft more.

Thats what im getting at.

Edit: its late, Im tired and not thinking clearly! Trying to catch up on the thread.

Nike.2631:

cesmode.4257:

You might not like this answer but the person who has 8 characters can craft more things quickly, like spiritwood for example, than the guy with just one character.

Um… you know that the once a day limit on spirit wood is account wide, yes?

My Artificer and Huntsman regularly fought over the privilege of which of them would get the crafting XP for the day for that item.

Yes I do, and Im responding to Timmyf’s post about time gating and single chars vs multiple chars.

timmyf.1490:

Izzy-

I think that’s some great info on time-gating and helps us to understand why you use it. I would add that, in addition to casual-vs-hardcore, you should consider single-vs-multiple character players.

Time gates that might be reasonable for players with a single character could be entirely ridiculous for those of us who have eight.

You might not like this answer but the person who has 8 characters can craft more things quickly, like spiritwood for example, than the guy with just one character.

The guy with just one character might not even be a casual that plays 1 hour a day. He might have 1500 hours in and just really love his class.

So how is this fair to him?

I’ll agree that going back to a pure stand-still tab target game where you just straff to the left or right to move out of bad floor is a leap backward in combat… it is an archaic form of it, where you hit certain buttons based on procs, stand still and nuke nuke nuke until you have to move.

GW2 combat is a step or two above the WoW and Rift combat styles.

Tera and Neverwinter are a few steps above GW2. More action-based combat with a better class/talent system(similar to Diablo 3 even though D3 is not an MMO, I hold its talent system in the highest regard).

Wildstar looks to have a good handle on it. Not sure about all the telegraphs, but we’ll see.

Hi,
So I am curious, is there a benefit to upgrading luck essences? I.E. from blue to green to yellow/orange? Do they increase in value? Or just save you a lot of clicking?

How about this: the game looks at who has gotten a precursor drop, or multiple, and reduces that persons chances of getting ascended gear drops

Im kidding! Thought I’d lighten the mood. Carry on.

Tyrannus Blade.3408:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Aeonblade.8709:

Lheimroo.2947:

Moshari.8570:

Give the ascended gear either “limited” stat swapping or full stat swapping like legendaries…or a way (a quest for instance) that would allow you to Add a stat for stat swapping.

If there were epic quests in place where you could unlock stat combinations for your gear that’d be.. awesome. That would be unbelievably awesome.

No more grind; make it about challenges.

I agree, would love to hear from Chris on this idea specifically, epic quest chains to unlock swappable item stats and new item stat combos.

This is a cool idea. Lots of logic problems to think about in regard to it. Need more time to think (-:

Chris

If I’m understanding this right then the suggestion involves the idea of one piece of gear having many possible stat combos unlocked for it which can be swapped out on the fly so you don’t need a set of gear for each build. I wonder if it would be possible to also extend this idea to include swappable sigils and runes on weapons and armour so that one set of ascended really can work for all builds with the right unlocks.

While extending it to sigils, and we are talking about EXOTIC sigils here not ascended..right???, is a good idea… but one step at a time I think. Swapping some sigils out, few silver here and there, isn’t going to be game breaking for players IMO.

In terms of prioritization, Id rather see them get the stat swapping in first, and concentrate on multiple acquisition methods at the same time, rather than making sure we can swap sigils out with ease.

Chris, could you or anyone else comment on something that is a splinter in many of our minds:

Are there plans for ascended runes and sigils? Taking that a step further, are there plans for ascended runes and sigils that can only be placed on ascended gear?

I think this question deserves an answer before a large amount of people pass on creating ascended weapons and armor believing it is the last bit of ascended only to, again, be sideswiped by more power creep and widening the gap more between ascended and exotic.

Im dying to know the answer to this :/

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Nike.2631:

VOLKON.1290:

I can’t possibly disagree more with this opinion. If accessibility becomes to easy you will soon enough find a new problem where some players have all the ascended gear they want.

I think the direction gaining momentum is less that acquisition needs to be faster and more there need to be multiple paths of comparable difficulty/time investment.

Making each piece count as all 17 possible pieces (and hey, what happened to Giver stats anyway…?) at the same time as allowing players to acquire them by multiple tracks simultaneously is gonna turn the tier into a rubber stamp, not an intermediate activity while inching up on your Legendary.

I understand the appeal for the players, but I don’t think it’s a good call for the game.

As a result they’ll begin to demand more progression past ascended.

I don’t think I’m alone in my willingness to tell those players “bite me.”

‘Vertical progressionists’ had their say once already and the result is this morass we’re digging out of now.

Lets not indulge in the insanity of repeating it.

Hi Nike,

There is no morass and no concept of ‘us’ trying to dig ourselves out of it.We are having a discussion about accessibility around ascended gear in relation to how the community wants to acquire it. I still stand by its inclusion and want to ensure that it is equidistantly positioned between Exotic and Legendary. I also want to ensure it is accessible to all players specifically in regard to how they play within the world.

These are all areas we have thought about at Anet. Personally I don’t think there is anything wrong with having an open discussion with everyone about how the play, and their feelings toward the opinions of other members of the community and the Developers.

Like i keep saying i am very much looking forward to concentrating on Horizontal Progression. In the meantime however I want to make sure that we give Ascended the attention it is due.

Chris

Hi Chris,
First, fantastic use of the word ‘equidistantly’. Kudos

I don’t want to stray off topic, but if you stand by ascended gears inclusion into the game, then how come we have not received an explanation as to why we weren’t informed about ascended gear in the first place at launch? As you said in the AMA a year ago, ascended gear was always intended? If that is true, how come we went three months into launch believing that we were acquiring our BiS sets in exotic gear, only to be sideswiped by the addition of ascended gear and the claims that it was intended all along. Arenanet could have avoided a major headache if they would have mentioned this before launch, rather than three months after. The gear treadmill discussion would not exist as ascended gear would have been understood as always intended, right at launch.

Regarding ascended gear’s accessibility: Purchasable via Karma, OR via honor badges, OR a combination of dungeon tokens. I say ‘OR’ because one should not have to farm honor badges if he/she doesn’t play WvW and one should not have to farm dungeon tokens if he/she doesn’t want to run dungeons.

Example: One piece could cost 125,000 karma. I think it takes at least a few days of playing 2-3 hours a day to accumulate this, possibly a few weeks. How does this sound?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

Chris

Most definitely. Id like to know that even while leveling an alt at lvl 50 or 20, doesnt matter the level, that I could essentially be working toward it. I feel that these items should be obtained via karma since it is a universal currency and can be obtained through a myriad of activities in GW2. Also, increasing the drop chance would be a great idea as well. And not just a increasing the chance at ascended drops, but would this mean that if we did get an ascended piece via drop that we can choose the stats? Or are the stats pre chosen for us? The ascended piece would be worthless if it was Carrion and my build revolves around zerker.

One thing I want to…point out. You had to have been aware that we want multiple ways of obtaining this gear. This should not be/is not a surprise to you. In fact, early on in the ascended gear debate, going back almost a year, it was mentioned by Arenanet that these items would be obtained through various means. Now, the only way to get an ascended weapon or armor is via crafting. Id like to give arenanet the benefit of the doubt here, but I have a hard time swallowing the idea that arenanet was not aware or did not perceive that we would want multiple ways of acquiring these items.

Not too sure what this thread is about but I can guess:

Pertaining to QoL for mists, Id like it if the zero-cost PvP gear you might ‘purchase’ for free from the vendor in the mists would disappear when returning to the open world. I grab that gear to test out new builds, not because I want to keep it. It takes up inventory and I need to destroy all of it when I return to open world.

Quick question: The ascended time gated materials, such as lump of mithrillium or glob of elder spirit residue…

If I had two crafts at 500, say huntsman and weaponsmith, could I craft these twice a day for each craft instead of only once?

Laenan De Malkshur.5803:

Why one handed weapons have the same price as the two handed one ?
you have to spend twice more crafting materials (-> more time/gold) for dual wielding players, and if your weapon switch is also dual wielding…

I agree. Was this an oversight?

Some of the cool armor is found in the gem store, some is crafted, some are from dungeons…

I recommend trying some dungeons, try WvW (historically Im a steadfast PVE player but WvW is freakishly fun…)

Haha there are some really funny ones…

Charbacka, carrack obama, charnobyl…

If you read my post history, I am one of the more critical people of the game on these forums.

With that being said, I encourage you to stick with it. The leveling experience in GW2 is far better than any other game Ive ever played.

Don’t just look at it as “well I gotta do more stuff to get to the next personal story:”. The leash is off. Go explore… you see a mining node go after it. Quite possibly, there is a dynamic event happening near by, or you might stumble upon a renown heart. My point is, you are free to run around the zone and find things to do. There are many.

Hint: Don’t just be looking on ‘the surface’ i.e. open air land.

As far as things to do at max level: Well, thats where it gets…a bit more complicated. You have your run of the mill things like dungeon running, or PvP…you can also head into WvW(which you can do at any level and be upscaled in level) which I am finding to be more and more entertaining. Some epic battles especially on reset nights! Theres map completion, if you want to see every nook and cranny in the game (the art team should win ‘most gorgeous game of the decade’ award. Find some jumping puzzles…some are really difficult.

Theres some good looking armor sets to obtain. And, sigh..I must begrudgingly advertise…ascended gear which is BiS gear, and takes a stupidly long time to craft.

Oh, and the best looking legendaries you’ll find in any MMO in my opinion…

Khisanth.2948:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Nike.2631:

Anyone here have a huge complaint against the idea of being able to buy Ascended Weapon/Armor Chests with some of our account-bound currencies?

Maybe~

Guild Commendations – 150 commendations, any stats
Badges of Honor – 800 badges, any stats
Dungeon Tokens – 1,000 w/ stat combinations matching the each dungeons’ existing flavors
Fractal Relics – 1,500 w/ stat combinations matching the current capacitors

((all quantities subject to change and offered only to inspire thought))

Good question. And morning/afternoon everyone. Just reading through all the new pages and great discussion. This is awesome.

Chris

I have a huge complaint against numbers that do not make much sense. I know you said they are just to inspire thought but these sort of problems also exist in the game already(the Halloween stuff for example).

150 guild commendations equals 25 weeks minimum assuming you do guild bounty, challenge, rush and puzzle every week and that assuming you are in a guild with all of those unlocked.

1000 dungeon tokens would take about a week or less.

1500 fractal relics is harder due to variance from fractal scale. Assuming 3x scale 6-10 runs per day it takes about a month.

Even if you ignore the actual numbers the less accessible thing should not take 25 times as long.

However, it is a good thing to bring up. Too many things in the game seems to ignore the math and just throws in randomly big numbers. Like kill 1million dolyaks.

I also think adding more things to Guild Commendations is a terrible idea. It already has too much contention as a currency for buying ascended gear. Adding more pressure does not seem right.

I like the overall concept though…utilizing existing currencies individually. I have nearly 3,000 honor badges going to waste. I do not want to have to accumulate commendations, tokens, karma, and badges. Id like to play the one or two areas that I may be interested in (for example dungeons and WvW) and work on my progression that way.

Or, and Ive been saying this since the dawn of time…just use karma! Its the universal currency and is literally rewarded with everything you do in game.

Finnway.2183:

Nike.2631:

Anyone here have a huge complaint against the idea of being able to buy Ascended Weapon/Armor Chests with some of our account-bound currencies?

Maybe~

Guild Commendations – 150 commendations, any stats
Badges of Honor – 800 badges, any stats
Dungeon Tokens – 1,000 w/ stat combinations matching the each dungeons’ existing flavors
Fractal Relics – 1,500 w/ stat combinations matching the current capacitors

((all quantities subject to change and offered only to inspire thought))

Nike,

This is a great suggestion! But what do you think would be an appropriate number of dungeon tokens (we’ll use that as an example) to buy Ascended armor? Right now it costs 1380 tokens to buy a dungeon armor set. Should you be able to buy Ascended armor with tokens from just one dungeon or should it require tokens from all dungeons to purchase Ascended armor? i.e. 690 token from each dungeon (5520 total), or something. This would be a great step away from the “need gold to buy anything” mentality.

EDIT: Another thought, they could add new Ascended armor skins for each way you could unlock it. This would add prestige to Ascended armor not just because you have it, but because of the way you unlocked it (i.e. you excel at dungeons, WvW, farming gold, etc.)

~Finn

As long as you are able to buy the piece without requiring each of the currencies…
For example, if I could buy a piece of ascended with 800 honor badges, or 1000 dungeon tokens or 150 commendations..not 800 and 1000 and 150.

I don’t do guild missions, so, for example this would still exclude someone like me. Or, some people don’t run dungeons, or some people do not play WvW…

whyme.3281:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

This would ruin the economy. People with money will get richer and richer and will dictate the prices in TP, like we have with legendaries at the moment.

I think Ascended gear wasnt needed in total. Exotics were obtained a bit too easy, but this could be compensatet by an increase of the crafting costs. Infusion slots could be simply edited by infusing them in the mystik forge if someone needs more agony resistance.
Acsended gear is too expensive and costs too much time to get, that playing an alt or even try a new build is made really hard and very expensive.

An alternative would be an Armor retrainer NPC, that can change your armor stats for 15s per armor piece and you can choose the stat of the ascended Armor afterward. This would make ascended gear a lot more buildfriendly. But you need to go to a NPC and pay him for respecing your armor.

This change would make Ascended gear a lot more interesting for all players. Yes you have to invest some time and Gold to get the gear, but after this, you have no downside if you want to test some builds. Even getting Ascended gear on Alts would be interesting.

This person is onto something here. I agree with every word.

-We’ll see the same price controlling with ascended armor that we do with legendaries. It won’t solve anything for people that cannot or won’t throw real world cash at armor, or people that dont have the time to farm endlessly.

-Ascended armor itself was a mistake. To assist with fractals, as the poster said, exotics could have been upgraded to include infusion slots.

-Armor retrainer sounds like a great idea. Do not have it cost an arm and a leg, but cost enough. Upgrade your exotic stats to ascended stats piece by piece, and have the ability to choose these stats. Have the cost be as much as 1-3 gold and 50,000 karma per piece.

This would:
-Enable people that don’t have hundreds of gold to acquire ascended pieces. 1-3 gold is relatively easy to come across even playing minimally. Karma is universal throughout the game. Anything you do, you are working toward this goal.
-Enable people with alts to acquire gear relatively easy.
-Enable people that run multiple builds to acquire multiple sets without putting a second mortgage on the house.

The gold cost is obviously the part that might need a tweak. But I think 1-3 gold, even as much as 3..or 5, would still be acceptable rather than the current system.

StriderShinryu.6923:

cesmode.4257:

StriderShinryu.6923:

Reesha.7901:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Absolutely. Once again, no reason at all to restrict gathering of high tier gear to any one method of acquisition. Allow all pieces to be bought and sold. Allow all pieces to be traded for using a variety of the in game currencies that are already in place (dungeon tokens, karma, laurels, glory, etc.)

You do realize that even just one of these pieces will run well over 50 gold….Im thinking closer to 100. For one piece. If people have that much gold on hand, you might as well just buy your precursor as well while youre at it.

Whats interesting to think about is that if this went live and people started buying ascended gear off the TP, these are most likely going to be the people who have their legendaries already, and probably multiple legendariesalready because they have fat wallets in the real world and able to buy gems. Its amazing… people complain about legendaries being tradeable on the TP, but this would be acceptable?

Doing this would cause greater disparity between a RL richboy vs the normal joe, and the 24×7 farmer and the normal joe.

That’s under the assumption that purchasing on the TP would be the only other way to acquire the gear. If you could get it in a variety of other ways (say with those Guild Commendations sitting in your bank, or with that pile of Karma you’ve been accumulating since launch) then the demand would not be there to support extremely high prices on the TP. Or, even if the prices remained high, there would be other ways to get the gear without paying through the nose for it.

Sure you could say TP acquisiton would still be something that supports Richie Rich and the Wallet Warriors, and you wouldn’t be wrong, but as long as that’s not the only way to reach that destination I don’t see it as that big of an issue. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars on something I can just buy with karma, laurels and dungeon tokens, then I’ll be laughing instead of angry.

Well, this goes without saying. However, Chris only mentioned the TP being the other addditional source aside from crafting. Had he said crafting, meta chests, dungeon chests(even though they are there but increase the drop rate), guild commendations etc…thats a different story.

But if youre still forced to choose between crafting or purchasing off the TP, it doesn’t solve anything. Its just another avenue for the rich to get a step ahead.

Randulf.7614:

Soeki.9643:

Horizontal progression:

I’d love to see some more use for skill points regarding our progression (not the current one where you add a new skill and it costs a lot for no real reason). For example you could add a new tab to the skill panel, where you can unlock your skills again (even weapon skills) but they would have different cosmetics. Like greater fireball, or bull’s charge summons a bull that runs with you towards your target, or add different colour to skills etc. These would have increased skill point costs, since they are only cosmetical, you could even tie some of them to some achievements/challenges or if you decide to use prestige classes to those as well.

Oh I LOVE this idea!!!!!

Its not a bad idea. I think I like it.

Wondering if it would be possible to turn off the new skill’s effects and go back to the old one..vice versa. If I got tired of that bull after bull charging so many times, could I go back?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Reesha.7901:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Reesha.7901:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

That will not remove the RNG factor…. Look at it this way:
Say you increased the drop rate on Tequatl. That means a higher change to get a weapon. But it is still RNG.
Some people will get several drops, others will get nothing, most will get items with the wrong stat combination. Please, please, please: No more RNG!

What if you could sell them? Thus complimentary to other forms of acquisition?

Chris

I am in favor of increased drop rates as a source of these items. Everyone plays the game to kill things which drop loot. Nearly everyone. If the tables and drop rate were adjusted properly, this would benefit literally everyone.

I know everyone HATES rng and I do too, when the rate is stupidly low. And we have been burned with it within the past year for sure. But if done properly, it is an exciting element to loot acquisition and makes acquiring loot more rewarding than a boring, mundane collection of items to craft. Or acquiring enough coin to purchase off the TP. Is that more rewarding than finding it in a chest from an Ettin in Timberline Falls?

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

cesmode.4257:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

I dislike this idea. Its similar to allowing legendaries to be tradeable on the TP. People with thick wallets to turn $$ into gems into gold can purchase their way to BiS…or people with loads of time to farm materials to sell can purchase BiS.

It solves nothing, unfortunately. For me it would be more of salt in an open wound than helping alleviate the problem.

It’d be better that way though.

One debate I’ve seen a lot over ascended armor and weapons is the restricted availability. Keep in mind, that if an individual gets ascended armor, and gear, and trinkets, and maxes their entire inventory, you run the problem of having useless drops because you’ve already fully geared up.

This is a good alleviative to that.

I think there are larger issues to think about for people that do not / cannot obtain the gear via spending loads of money or acquiring loads of resources…vs the guy that already has all ascended pieces and gets a rare ascended drop with no use for it.

I think its a bigger tragedy to push the ‘middle class’ of the game further down into the pits than worry about the surplus that a few rich or time-afforded players may run into. Its a non issue. At least in my POV.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

cesmode.4257:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

I dislike this idea. Its similar to allowing legendaries to be tradeable on the TP. People with thick wallets to turn $$ into gems into gold can purchase their way to BiS…or people with loads of time to farm materials to sell can purchase BiS.

It solves nothing, unfortunately. For me it would be more of salt in an open wound than helping alleviate the problem.

Doesn’t it allow another avenue for players to work toward the gear if they don’t enjoy crafting? Initially prices may be prohibitive but i would see them dropping.

Chris

I don’t think the prices would drop at all. If anything they would rise. We are over a year into the life of the game and precursor prices continue to rise. It was thought by some that with the addition of guild missions and the possibility of legendary drops that precursors would drop in price in the TP. Instead, they rose.

It would be yet another area of the game that most people without an unlimited income could not obtain the gear.

StriderShinryu.6923:

Reesha.7901:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Absolutely. Once again, no reason at all to restrict gathering of high tier gear to any one method of acquisition. Allow all pieces to be bought and sold. Allow all pieces to be traded for using a variety of the in game currencies that are already in place (dungeon tokens, karma, laurels, glory, etc.)

You do realize that even just one of these pieces will run well over 50 gold….Im thinking closer to 100. For one piece. If people have that much gold on hand, you might as well just buy your precursor as well while youre at it.

Whats interesting to think about is that if this went live and people started buying ascended gear off the TP, these are most likely going to be the people who have their legendaries already, and probably multiple legendariesalready because they have fat wallets in the real world and able to buy gems. Its amazing… people complain about legendaries being tradeable on the TP, but this would be acceptable?

Doing this would cause greater disparity between a RL richboy vs the normal joe, and the 24×7 farmer and the normal joe.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I think it would be cool if we can get a proposal together for treatment of stat based evolution as it currently stands in the game and then concentrate on Horizontal progression ideation.

Chris

Haha sounds good. However, we don’t know your technical limitations, resources, or abilities so I don’t think we could provide an adequate rehab plan

But if you’re looking for some ideas…and if you simply cannot figure out a way to remove ascended gear from the open world…

-Have ascended armor(which was just released) be the end of anything ascended. No runes, or sigils. By introducing runes and sigils, it widens the gap between exotic and ascended even more and now people who opted not to go for ascended armor feel that much more behind in stats and now compelled to craft ascended armor, reluctantly. This will have a negative impact, more so than already exists. And it would be difficult to calculate the stat differential on things like bloodlust sigils being ascended.

-Allow people to ascend exotic gear instead of crafting whole new sets.

*And then we move toward horizontal progression which is far more fruitful… *

-Horizontal ability progression(not better just different and complimentary like you said and discovered/unlocked doing ANYTHING in game).

-More dyes

-Skin locker / wardrobe(I asked for this probably 3 months into launch!!)

-Skins be account bound and used as many times as you want

-Thoughts on changing the color of some abilities? Like Null field from purple to blue? Might not work, but a thought.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

I dislike this idea. Its similar to allowing legendaries to be tradeable on the TP. People with thick wallets to turn $$ into gems into gold can purchase their way to BiS…or people with loads of time to farm materials to sell can purchase BiS.

It solves nothing, unfortunately. For me it would be more of salt in an open wound than helping alleviate the problem.

Im simply amazed at the amount of people that are opposed to vertical progression being confined to FoTM. If you think about it, it is the only place ascended gear is required(currently). So why does a stat increase even need to exist outside of it?

If ascended stats were confined to fractals, then the rest of us who may not want to step foot into fractals would not need to worry about power creep or a treadmill in the open world.

Im very much in favor of this and again, Im amazed that people are against it.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Brainstorm statement.

I am assuming that you wouldn’t want a progression system in which new skills and traits superseded/replaced existing skills and traits.

Thus all progression must be complimentary, enhancing your current roles, perhaps creating new ones rather than just making you more powerful.

So therefore the idea of statistical power creep is redundant?

Chris

Correct. Id like to discover skills in the open world by doing whatever it is that I want to do whether I am a level 80 running around a mid level zone doing DEs, or doing some DEs in Orr, or running around in WvW, or completing a dungeon.

It has to be everywhere.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Here is a crazy brainstorm idea, not in anyway indicative of our direction.

What if there was vertical progression in the Fractals with gear that increased in stats but when outside of the fractals defaulted back to BiS numbers?

I am asking this because it is going to generate some left field conversation not because I think it is or isn’t a good idea.

Chris

If by ‘defaulting back to BiS numbers’ when outside of fractals, you mean exotic stats…Id be all for that. I had a similar idea, thought it was too off the wall though. Ascended gear only wearable in fractals. Thats it.

But then how do you compensate the people that don’t do fractals that simply wanted BiS gear and spent money crafting ascended?

But I would be in favor of this and for me, it would solve just about every VP problem the game has.

Faowri.4159:

cesmode.4257:

While I agree that theres way too much crafting going on, and forced upon you if you want/need BiS gear… I do not think adding another currency into the game is the way to go. Theres way too much of it as it is. Have the items cost Karma instead, since its one of the universal currencies.

Karma absolutely does not get enough mileage for these basic elements of the game. I still think they should be incorporated directly into getting BiS gear. That way, no matter what I’m doing in the game and however many hours I can play, I’m typically gaining karma and I’m building up a pot of funds I can use for BiS gear. I don’t have to do forced crafting or participate in RNG to get something that should be a standard, based on the original vision of the game.

It might still take me a while if the karma cost was very high, but at least I don’t have to choose between playing the parts of the game that I enjoy while never getting BiS gear, and playing very specific, frankly unenjoyable parts of the game in very specific ways to achieve it. “Play your way” was a big sales line for GW2, too.

I agree10000000x

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Agreed. Let’s spend a little more time discussing and brainstorming the following questions:

Controversial: Vertical Progression acquisition can be a pain but what if any elements do you like about Vertical Progression?

Lets keep coming up with some awesome Horizontal Progression systemic ideas and also reward ideas?

Try to tie these ideas into the core foundation of GW2’s systems and mechanics please.

Chris

Positive things about vertical progression: Well, it needs to be done correctly. VP is OK so long as it is reachable by a majority of the playerbase. If you put up barriers via time, and massive materials gathering. I would much rather run a dungeon and receive it as a drop rather than current ascended gear crafting. **Note, the drop rate needs to be realistic.

However, positives about VP… it keeps the player reaching, it keeps the player engaged. It gives the player a sense of accomplishment. If you replace a masterwork with an exotic you should feel a lot stronger. You should see bigger numbers when DPSing.

However, again this needs to be done properly.

Right now, I do not believe it is and I very much dislike how it is done in GW2.

Suggestion: I know you can’t turn back time, but ascended gear should be only available from fractals, and only usable in fractals since they are the only gear pieces with infusion slots.

Otherwise, if your intent is/was to allow them to be used in open world, just allow people to ascend their exotics and/or create infusion slots on the exotics.

Reesha.7901:

cesmode.4257:

About RNG as a form of gear acquisition:

I know people in this game have been burned with RNG in the past, myself included to a degree. Keep in mind that in many games including the almighty World of Warcraft, RNG is the primary source of gear acquisition, at least BiS gear. You get it through raid drops, dungeon drops etc.

I do not want the Warcraft system here, but in Warcraft it was perfectly doable to gear up a guild by clearing raid content.

The items could be distributed between raid members; when they dropped, they were not bound to one person only. That made it possible for guilds to distribute the gear evenly between its members. Either through DKP or a loot council.

In my opinion, RNG worked better in Warcraft.

I agree with you. Im not sure I necessarily want it in Gw2, but it is far better than what we have now to get BiS gear.

About RNG as a form of gear acquisition:

I know people in this game have been burned with RNG in the past, myself included to a degree. Keep in mind that in many games including the almighty World of Warcraft, RNG is the primary source of gear acquisition, at least BiS gear. You get it through raid drops, dungeon drops etc.

I would much prefer to go toward that method of acquisition rather than a mass accumulation of materials, then forcing us to craft up to 500 even if we dont want to just to have BiS gear.

However, and as Chris alluded to slightly, the drop rate needs to be adjusted. It can’t be a ~1 % or ~5% drop rate for items. Needs to be quite a bit higher for people to still feel encouraged to do things and feel rewarded.

neneza.6954:

Hi. I just want to say, that problem with this game is not “vertical” and “horizontal” progression, it’s not revard system it is gameplay.

What happened wiht dynamic events?! Don’t tell me that this portals that spawns mobs are “dynamic” those events are really static. Mobs spawn and stay in one position waiting players to come and kill them. I don’t like that.

We need more comlex quests-dynamic events, mix between dynamic events and old school quests, with choices and consequences and different ends.

Not sure this would qualify for the current CDI though. I agree with you, that they should entice us to play in any zone, run any DE and be thoroughly rewarded for it and feel like we actually did something. Maybe the rewards from these DEs could contribute some how to char progression other than simple currency.

The man is driving me nuts. How am I supposed to keep my sanity crafting my ascended weapon when he keeps talking. His voice is very annoying and he repeats his lines very often. Could you please tone it down?

He says the same thing every 30 seconds.

One thing I want to say about GW1 …

I hear people compare GW2 and GW1 progression systems a lot, although I have never played GW1. It does sound like a pretty fun game and I wish I had played it at its height (I was in WoW at that time chasing carrots). But kind of wish I was playing GW1, sounds like the game I was/am looking for.

Sithaco.4673:

I believe all types of ascended gear should be able to be obtained through all aspects of the game.

Honestly, this is what we were told when ascended gear was released. All aspects of the game. But, again, these words were apparently mis interpreted by us because what was meant was that we would be able to obtain the materials needed for ascended gear crafting through all aspects of the game.. I feel, again, it was word play at its best. We interpreted one thing, what was truly meant was another. My interpretation of this was that I could sit in WvW all day and get my ascended piece. 3 dragonite per keep lord will take forever. I really would need to do some temple runs. Or what if I just wanted to obtain the materials needed through dungeons and alts in the open world? Not possible to create ascended gear on mid level alts, or from dungeon farming.

On top of that, we are then forced to craft, and many people do not like to craft. Im indifferent to it, I think crafting is done exceptionally well in GW2. And I guess I personally dont mind crafting an ascended piece, persay, but wish it wasn’t the only method of obtaining the piece.

And the drop rates for actual ascended pieces or skins or whatever might as well not even exist. They are as low and rare as precursors, at least for me. I havent seen a precursor or an ascended piece drop.

ebrown.8193:

All I’d like to know if with the release of Ascended Armor, this is the end of vertical progression as far as new items. I’m tired of working towards bis items only to have the new items release that offer “new stat increases!” This is exactly one of the reasons I left the “other games” to play this one.

I would like to know this as well, specifically as it pertains to sigils, runes, or any other future enhancements to gear and weapons. The amount of materials and $$ you need to sink into ascended armor effectively pushed me out of the ascended armor circle. If ascended ends there, I can live with it. If there are plans for ascended upgrades such as sigils or runes ,then

Vindicated.3491:

Character progression for most of us, who are now in the end game stage, is the goal of obtaining ascended gear. I am a casual player and I used to invest 1 hour a day doing my dailies and on weekends I spend my time in WVW and completing Living World contents. I soon came to realize that, such routine has brought me little progess in achieving my goal of getting ascended items. I hate grinding for materials. I’m sure the repetition in real life (eg. jobs, study) is enough for most of us and the last thing, the majority of us want is to slave away grinding for materials in a virtual world. And ANET is well aware of this I am sure, so this is where, the trade post comes into play.

Issues

Solutions and Ideas
1. Reduce the dependency on raw mats for ascended items. Enable tokens to buy materials need for ascended gears. This will stop inflation from going out of hand. A good example is the ascended accessories and trinkets.
2. Another option is to increase the drop rate for materials. At level 80, I would think getting 720 cotton scrap would be more challenging than 10800 silk scrap. In WVW, please increase the variety and amount of mats in a loot bag.
3. Rather than having a seperate set of ascended gear, it would be nice if we can upgrade our exotic sets to ascended gears. Maybe introduce a little cosmetic upgrade as well (eg. fractal back piece). It would be dull to see everybody in the same ascended gear.

While I agree that theres way too much crafting going on, and forced upon you if you want/need BiS gear… I do not think adding another currency into the game is the way to go. Theres way too much of it as it is. Have the items cost Karma instead, since its one of the universal currencies.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

Ascended Gear
So then why did we add ascended gear, well the reason is we wanted sometime between the transition and what we shipped with was very little time turns out global trading post has a lot more effect on this then we had original thought which made us need a non-tradable gear step. We still have some progression to smooth out around the rare -> exotic area as mostly you just jump from leveling greens to exotics and rare is really only used for salvaging into ecto. We have been spacing out adding each slot of ascended gear to make sure we don’t make our original mistake again and I’m sure we’ll need to continue to evaluate the time to gain this gear like we do all things.

Ascended creation time

We had a lot of discussion pre-releasing ascended armor to make sure the time to make ascended doesn’t blow out, We pull a lot of data and are watching how long it takes players and like we do with everything we will keep and eye on it but with anything with progression there are always a lot of tradeoffs when you make changes but we’re always looking at it.

Hi,
So I am confused. The way you make it sound is that you realized after the fact that people were obtaining exotics too quickly and needed something else to reach for. But back in November 2012, Chris Whiteside said ascended gear was always intended for the game. Well, if that is also true then why wasn’t this information shared with the playerbase at launch? People obtained exotic gear and many were content with their gear progression in its current state. We were then blind sided by ascended gear, and here we are now. There is still a big question mark as to 1.) Was it always intended? 2.) If so, why wasn’t this info shared at launch because in doing so, you avoid a storm of irate posts.

Regarding ascended creation time… To craft up to 500 is very time consuming and expensive. To obtain enough dragonite, is extremely difficult and time consuming. If you wish to evaluate how long it takes to craft these items, please focus your efforts on the glob of ecto requirements throughout, dark matter requirements, and dragonite. In addition to dragonite, I also say the glob of ecto and dark matter because we are then forced to salvage the exotics we created when leveling to 500. Unless you have a Black Lion Salvage Kit, you are at a huge disadvantage for a return of an ecto or dark matter. It is VERY VERY frustrating to even have a master salvage kit, salvage a level 80 exotic you just spend several gold to craft, and have it return 1 mithril ore.

The way you have ascended materials acquisition set up, I feel like it is more of a kick in the stomach than a rewarding experience.

ColinJohanson.2394:

A question to help direct the discussion a bit:

What are some of your favorite progression systems of all time in others? Be they horizontal, or vertical, just which ones really got you excited and were fun for you to continue to progress in?

For me, Final Fantasy Tactics is one I loved, where I was able to continue to unlock new jobs and advanced professions for my characters, as well as level up their abilities within those professions. It remains one of my all time favorite games, and one of my favorite systems of progression in any game. I’m also pretty darn fond of that Guild Wars game and skill collection.

For me,
I think a good progression system is unlocked or discovered. Not all progression needs to be about gear, and I hope we are all in agreement about that. Being able to discover new abilities while out in the game world playing and completing an event, or unlocking a a skill through simple game play is more rewarding than mundane materials gathering.

Or, take it a step further. Randomly stumble upon a skill unlock, and I mean random..not a “go to a 3rd party website and find a guid where all the skill unlocks are”, and be zoned into an instance(or not) and fight a mini boss(solo). Boss should be pretty unique, difficult, but not impossible and not littered with a thousand knockbacks or stuns…

I just posted a suggestion about a possible method of character progression. I feel this is a good supplement to the overall idea of progression. I’ll now post my thoughts on traditional vertical vs horizontal progression.

Vertical progression:
Every game has done this. There are many MMOs out there that play to the carrot on a stick crowd and some deviate from the formula of VP slightly, but none come close to the king of VP (WoW). GW2, I hope, isn’t aspiring to be climbing that mountain, but VP is in GW2 regardless even if it is ~5 or so.

I cannot persuade you to remove ascended weapons, ascended armor, or ascended trinkets. I truly hope that it ends here. I hope that we do not see ascended runes and sigils, especially ones that can only be placed on ascended armor. This will increase the gap between exotic and ascended. Would ascended still be required in the game? Probably not. Thats not the point. Many people bought GW2 with the hopes that they would be able to obtain a BiS gear set and then simply enjoy playing your game. They now stare at the face of a mountain of ascended requirements and they tremble. For many, including myself, its not possible to do. I cannot obtain BiS gear in this game without 1.) more than 2 hours a night to play 2.) a fat wallet.

So, to close out my thoughts on Verticle progression as it exists in GW2: Please end it with ascended armor. No ascended sigils or runes. And please, please keep agony contained to fractals ONLY. I can stomach the existence of ascended armor and weapons, but adding to it with sigils and runes will be too much for me to stay and support your game with gem purchases.

Horizontal progression:
I prefer this over vertical progression and I bought GW2 on the belief that once I acquire a BiS slot(which at the time was dubbed exotic gear as per many interviews, blogs, etc etc) I work on a aesthetic look afterward.

My thief has the two chaos pistols, Lyss and Iyla. This is the type of horizontal progression I was looking for. These guys were not cheap, yet not wildly out of reach. I love the look and I am proud to equip them. While using the mystic forge to do create them, the forge should not be the only place. Gem store should have gem store exclusive skins. Random drops in the world(and not a ~1% drop rate). Random drops from certain dungeons. How cool would it be to have a pistol that is engulfed in flames drop from a boss in a CoF run? Or a pistol skin made out of pure electricity drop from a CoE run?

Comparing the two progression systems, I think in GW2, horizontal would have been the way to go. It would have been less of a headache for you(Im sure you have jokes in the office about our ascended gear rants), and I truly think you would have a more positive player base. You may have the few people that gripe about lack of VP, but these peopel did not do their research on the game before buying and should play a game like WoW.

I think GW2 is more about the adventure, more about discovery and exploration, about discovery of items, skills, lore… Sadly it has become more about the collection of materials…which is not fun.

Hi Chris Thanks for taking the time. (before my post is cast aside as a ‘gripe’, skip to the third full paragraph where my true contribution comes into play).

So I am one of the people thats slowly coming to terms with ascended gear’s existence in GW2 even though I strongly oppose it. I am crafting a few weapons and plan to stop there.

In terms of gear progression, I sincerely hope it ends with Ascended armor. I hope we do not see ascended sigils and runes, let alone ascended sigils and runes that can only be placed on ascended armor. This would put many people at a disadvantage that chose not to craft ascended armor.

With that said, my contribution to this topic would be to end GEAR progression here with ascended armor, and work more toward CHARACTER progression. What do you think about adopting a pioneering idea from SoE(developers of Everquest Next) where you can find classes(in our case, skills and abilities) in the world.

Example: Max level character, level 80 is participating in an event in Timberline Falls. He/she successfully completes the event(solo or not) and is rewarded the normal experience, karma, and silver, but also a bonus box which contains a Skill/ability that can be learned for his/her class. This skill/ability can be in the form of a recipe or consumable that the player double clicks and automatically has that skill unlocked to he/she. The player can now ‘drag’ that ability onto the hotbar and start using it.

The point is, you want to reward players for playing the game, in any way they want to. Whether its completing an event in the Living Story, or completing a dynamic event in Orr or some mid-level zone, taking a keep in WvW, or completing a dungeon. Whatever the case may be, you want to reward them. What better way to do this than character progression. But this character progression is not tied the massive requirement of gold or mass accumulation of materials to craft an piece of gear. It is simply playing the game however you see fit and getting a truly kitten reward for it.

tldr; Reward us for playing any part of the game. Since this topic is about progression, verticle or horizontal, have these rewards be discovered and found(and not at some obscenely low RNG rate), rather than ‘crafted’.

The traditional model of gear acquisition, or in this example’s case would be skill acquisition, is what many people are accustomed to, rather than having loads of resources to craft things like ascended armor. People are used to gear drops in Raids, in dungeons, in the open world. Why not take that a step further?

Hi,
Since the class balance update on 12/10, Arcane Wave has been changed and is now targetable. This sort of disallows it to function underwater as it used to. If you are underwater and not near the ‘ocean floor’ or the floor of the water, you cannot target anything with arcane wave to use it. So this is a decent problem for might stacking using a firefield and a arcane wave as a blast.

Is this intended or was this thought of?

Bag of coins and karma consumables are pointless IMO. Karma consumables more so because these values won’t change and arent subject to rng. just reward us with karma and give us another item.

Lost me after the second page. I agree with what Ive read from the OP.

But I see more bot spamming now more than ever. Every single night I get one or two bots spamming me…so thats still around.

But OP, you are correct with most of what you listed. Those are good things, aside from Living Story. That alongside with ascended armor/gear has been a poison to this game and a constant debate. Why arenanet still invests loads of resources into both when they are the #1 and #2 debated issues, I dont know.

Other than that, well said.

FeveredDreamer.2693:

I mean I’m glad to see that some attention might be paid to the subject, but it seems kind of laughable to discuss this right after the ascended armor gear grind is revealed. Hopefully something useful comes from the discussion but my expectations are decidedly low.

You know, I hadn’t thought about the timing of this. It is a curious thought, however. I’ll give Anet the benefit of the doubt and say it wasn’t intentional. I don’t think they thought “Well lets get ascended armor out the door, and then talk about it after the fact”.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

I haven’t been participating in this CDI stuff partly because I really don’t see much coming from it.

I’ll agree that I do not see much coming from the CDIs, at least not in the near future. I understand it takes time to talk about internally and develop. I will continue to participate and voice opinions and suggestions much as I have for the past year, albiet in a more productive manner. But these are problems that we have been clamoring about for months, or a year now. And why listen to us now?

For example, if they make a change with their gear progression system(whatever it is), and it is something that we have been ranting about for ages(since November 2012), why listen to us now? What makes now any different than the previous 13 months? Just because we had a thread that is officially sanctioned by Arenanet, only then do our voices get weighed a bit more and action taken?

So at this point I am pretty impatient, while knowing it takes time to make change.

I voiced my opinion in the LS thread very heavily. I will do so even more heavily in the upcoming CDI. I will then sit back and wait for some change. Im not giving ultimatums or a specific deadline, but somewheres around 3 or 4 months… if things don’t start improving to what the masses touch on in these CDIs(i.e. if more often than not people all agree on one item), I will finally leave the game for good. Not a break, but for good. There are too many good titles scheduled to drop in 2014 (TESO, Wildstar, Everquest Next(might be 2015)). Too many titles to ignore when GW2 has ignored its shortcomings and only now acknowledge and attempt to address faults.

I hope change comes soon.

I dont see the craze for minis. I dont need them, dont want them. I have a few and 99.9% of the time I don’t even know I have them nor do i remember to take one out every once in a while.

But, some people like them.

How about as a meta achieve reward, choose mini or skin