Guild Wars 2

So, something strikes me odd about this line of thought…

Prior to the games launch, it is known that the game is free to play, and arenanet’s own staff says “Its OK to put the game down, and come back at a later date. We don’t expect you to be entertained every day of the year since this is not a sub model based game”. Along with that, they are not required to keep you entertained every day of the year, since you are not paying a sub. You are playing for free.

With this line of thought, arenanet has adopted the two week cadence to combat this very topic of being bored. No sub model, no requirement on their part to keep you logging in…yet they have changed their way of doing things to do just that.

Curious why they changed their views, and curious why all of you who are ‘bored’ did not see this when you bought the game? If you did your research you would know theres no raiding so traditional endgame doesn’t exist.

The only end game that exists, and you can do this at almost any level:
-WvW
-Living Story
-Ascended armor materials grind
-Legendary materials grind
-World Bosses and events.
-Guild Missions.

Thats about it. I don’t consider Dungeons, or map completion as end game. They are run of the mill in any game and really have lost their luster in consideration for ‘end game’.

Azure Prower.8701:

cesmode.4257:

No. No mounts.

It drastically shrinks the world and reduces immersion when the game is sorely lacking immersion since theres no reason to go into any zone right now other than when a world boss pops, FSG, Queensdale, or Living Story flavor of the week zone.

I want my immersion, I want a large world.

Would you rather the removal of way points with out mounts then? Help make the world bigger and add to the immersion?

Hm,
Maybe maybe not. I dont know. I like sometimes stopping in a zone, looking up and the sky and off in the distance and just being engulfed in it all.

Ah yes, interesting.

Well, I hope they don’t limit it to fan sites. Fan sites often get sneak peaks and insider access to the content before its released so they have their guides up(ahem dulfy). I think they get enough fanfare from arenanet.

It would be nice of these cards went to good samaritans(sp) of Tyria, people who behave themselves on the forums(this counts me out), and just an overall decent player enjoying GW2 as it is meant to be played.

No. No mounts.

It drastically shrinks the world and reduces immersion when the game is sorely lacking immersion since theres no reason to go into any zone right now other than when a world boss pops, FSG, Queensdale, or Living Story flavor of the week zone.

I want my immersion, I want a large world.

Fernling.1729:

How much have you spent in the cash shop?

This. And have you ever been infracted on the forums?

Me thinks I’ll receive coal from arenanet this christmas.

My former guildees, who are not playing anything since we stopped playing WoW, will try new games and immediately compare it to WoW, no matter the game. Its annoying.

“Ohh wow this game is fun! Its giving me that sense of awe like when I first started playing WoW!!”

“Ah yeah, the classes are the same as WoW.”

“WoW does this”
me: “But XYZ game does it better, see?”
“Yeah, but they owe it to WoW. They don’t have to go through the growing pains with it”
me: “Then I guess WoW owes its existance to games like Everquest.”

“Eh, this game just looks like WoW to me”

“You mean, I have to move to avoid dying? Someone heal me please?”"

Nike.2631:

Dondarrion.2748:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

Hi Chris,

Short reminder: Fractals reset?

Hi Chris,

please ignore this stupid, non-constructive remark.

Why the sudden upswing in volunteer moderation in this thread? Not just this post, there have been a couple lately.

And as a purely objective critique, how is this remark stupid? It was a topic in this thread in the past and our resident Dev-host indicated he was still thinking about it.

To those who are curious about that bit of cogitation, consider:

Fractal reward levels are actually horizontal progression (not vertical). They don’t give you ANY mechanical advantage outside of the fractals themselves. Unlocking level 50 doesn’t give you new skills or new buffs. The Ascended Gear can be earned without ever pushing deeper than LEVEL 1 (does progress get an ‘flatter’ than this? I mean really…).

So, please, just stand-by.

When we get into discussion horizontal progression, part of it will HAVE TO BE talking terms about some of the “soft” progressions. Is your increasing Luck/Magic Find a vertical progression? I personally don’t think so. If it’s possible for a number on your character sheet to go up, but for that to track horizontal progression (like ‘Luck’) then a number like “fractal reward level” has to be viewed as tracking a non-vertical progression also… and is about to become very topical to this thread.

I would agree. I understand why people were irate about being reset. But in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Level 30, level 50…who cares? Lvl 50 gives you a slightly better chance at ascended stuff maybe? And an excuse to beat your chest a little harder than the guy at 30, or 20.

Eh, I just don’t see the big deal about being reset down to 30. You aren’t losing anything, just a number corresponding to level, which roughly content remains the same through the levels.

From my side of things and to wrap up my point of views on verticle progression/ascended gear:

-I want ascended weapons and armor to be the last pieces of ascended gear added. I would prefer no ascended sigils or runes. I don’t think it is necessary since the amount of time it would take the majority of players to create ascended armor sets is good enough to bridge the gap between exotic and legendary.

-I am indifferent to time gating. It prevents me from going into crafting overload and going overboard. However, I can see where it is a detriment so I would get behind a solution to allow us to craft 7 time gated materials per week(one for each day) all at once, or something of that nature.

-I truly hope that agony remains in FoTM and that no content requires ascended gear on any level or any aspect at all in the rest of the game. The moment you start to see ‘LFM must have ascended’ is when we have a problem.

-I think verticle progression can also be achieved by upgrading spells and abilities. Controversial topic, but it could work.

-I think the overall grind in GW2 needs to be reduced drastically, especially when it pertains to BiS. Make it challenging or time consuming, but not life consuming. The vision crystals, for example, are something that can just go. Not needed. Dark matter globs are another item that can disappear.

-I love the idea of a wardrobe. I think I suggested this on these very forums early on in the game’s life. It is needed especially when we are talking about horizontal progression soon.

-I am in favor of being able to change stats on the fly for ascended gear. Who wants to craft multiple sets? And what if your current build is nerfed to the ground and you want to go from berserker to condition damage. Then you need to craft an entire new set. I disagree with this. Make the stats interchangeable.

-Overall, I like VP, Im just not sure how much I like it in GW2. I don’t think its the game for it. Which is why I have been so opposed to introducing ascended gear in the first place without any warning prior to the game launching. Please let the recent addition of ascended armor be the last we see of ascended gear. Lets move on from this discussion and debate, and leave all of this…agony(no pun intended) behind and focus on bigger and better things.

My buddies, former guildees and brother are the same. None play mmo anymore but one friend. He just plays wow to raid. Nothing else. Logs in for a raid and then logs out.

Not sure why gw2 never clicked with anyone else.

Nike.2631:

Ok, I’ve read variations on this a bunch of times now but I’ve got to ask it straight out:

Do people feel it’s impossible to test new builds using only Exotic gear?

When I get an evil notion to couple Superior Runes of the Sunless with the fastest Elite Skill cooldown in the game (Basilisk Venom, muhuwahahaaa…) I don’t need a full suit of Ascended to figure out if it works. I may want that full set eventually if the build comes together, but it seems like the experimentation and even refinement phases aren’t going on hinge on that last 5% of stats. If anything timing issues (mostly cooldowns) which are barely affected by gear load-out have a lot more make-or-break impact on my experiments.

Since I probably won’t be going for ascended gear, I will assume that build testing and build viability, etc will remain relatively unchanged.

If, some how, optimal builds change via min maxing with ascended gear, then this is a problem. This should not be a side effect.

Phy.2913:

cesmode.4257:

Phy.2913:

cesmode.4257:

Phy.2913:

Set the lockout timer to an hour, and have the reward some zone specific crafting item upto 1 T6 or more of a lesser tier. I just want a reliable way to farm T6 mats that doesn’t involve ridiculous drop rates.

Dont think “farming” is the idea here. Its getting people out and about and being rewarded for it, playing in whatever zone they want. Not another “find the most efficient route and drive it into the ground” as with queensdale champ train.

The fact that the hearts are locked for a month after doing them prevents farming and exploiting. This won’t please the farmers that like to find the quickest route between two points.

It doesn’t matter what the intent is or how long of a lockout timer there is, people will find the most efficient way to farm it, or ignore it completely if it isn’t worth the time. Farming and grinding are the same thing, and for me, hearts are a grind.

There is no efficient method for T6 blood, there’s only grind, you grind mobs or money.

I wouldn’t say everyone. Theres enough people running dungeons, fractals, running around Orr, or participating in Winters day or an LS event to denote that farming the most efficient path is not the only thing people do in the game.

Running COE is not very efficient, but I do it because its fun, as Im sure many others do.
Doing the jumping puzzle in wintersday isnt efficient and won’t net you anything really, but people do it because its fun.

Would you rather everyone in the game sit in Queensdale or FSG and run the champ train because its the most efficient means of karma? If this is the case, then delete everything else from the game, and just have these two methods of acquiring anything.

If you want people to go somewhere else, then make it worth the effort. A one month lockout would make it worthless for 29 days out of the month, which doesn’t improve anything. I don’t run champ trains because they’re boring, but farming mobs is just as boring and far less rewarding. I need T6 mats, but getting them on my own is the most tedious grind this game has.

You are assuming that we will only have one map to do this.

All zones would be open to this. Once you are locked out of one zone from completing all the hearts, you move onto another one.

Phy.2913:

cesmode.4257:

Phy.2913:

Set the lockout timer to an hour, and have the reward some zone specific crafting item upto 1 T6 or more of a lesser tier. I just want a reliable way to farm T6 mats that doesn’t involve ridiculous drop rates.

Dont think “farming” is the idea here. Its getting people out and about and being rewarded for it, playing in whatever zone they want. Not another “find the most efficient route and drive it into the ground” as with queensdale champ train.

The fact that the hearts are locked for a month after doing them prevents farming and exploiting. This won’t please the farmers that like to find the quickest route between two points.

It doesn’t matter what the intent is or how long of a lockout timer there is, people will find the most efficient way to farm it, or ignore it completely if it isn’t worth the time. Farming and grinding are the same thing, and for me, hearts are a grind.

There is no efficient method for T6 blood, there’s only grind, you grind mobs or money.

I wouldn’t say everyone. Theres enough people running dungeons, fractals, running around Orr, or participating in Winters day or an LS event to denote that farming the most efficient path is not the only thing people do in the game.

Running COE is not very efficient, but I do it because its fun, as Im sure many others do.
Doing the jumping puzzle in wintersday isnt efficient and won’t net you anything really, but people do it because its fun.

Would you rather everyone in the game sit in Queensdale or FSG and run the champ train because its the most efficient means of karma? If this is the case, then delete everything else from the game, and just have these two methods of acquiring anything.

Phy.2913:

Set the lockout timer to an hour, and have the reward some zone specific crafting item upto 1 T6 or more of a lesser tier. I just want a reliable way to farm T6 mats that doesn’t involve ridiculous drop rates.

Dont think “farming” is the idea here. Its getting people out and about and being rewarded for it, playing in whatever zone they want. Not another “find the most efficient route and drive it into the ground” as with queensdale champ train.

The fact that the hearts are locked for a month after doing them prevents farming and exploiting. This won’t please the farmers that like to find the quickest route between two points.

Not to mention, I know of a method in game that can net me probably 70-90 ori ore, 80-100 ancient wood, same with elder, within 1-2 hours. Its not hard, but boring. Just figure it out

It does not involve TP flipping
It does not involve champ farming

There are efficient methods of acquiring T6 materials.

Pawstruck.9708:

Maybe folks could fill me in on what TERA does wrong, because I haven’t made it past level 10 yet…

The end game, at least when I played, was nothing BUT RNG. You think people have it bad in GW2 with RNG? It is why I laughed and hardly complained about it here. Because in Tera, it was EVERYTHING. You try to craft a +10 enchantment or whatever, and if it failed you lose those materials and I think you even went backward in crafting level or something like that. This was early on, within the first few weeks. It was a nightmare. That was RNG at its worst, so when people whine about it here I think back to my Tera days.

That, and that the political system was a failure, elitists, dungeon queues were horrible. Tera’s graphics, combat, and dungeon mechanics/fights made it worth playing. Man i miss those dungeons

VOLKON.1290:

cesmode.4257:

Pawstruck.9708:

Of course Tera has great combat. That’s ALL it has!

I literally did a quest in Tera to kill 10 XYZ’s, turned it in, and got ANOTHER QUEST TO DO THE SAME THING. lol. The combat system’s not archaic, but the questing system and the rest of the game is.

Well, if you thnk about it: GW2’s renown hearts are the same thing. Only, you can choose what you want to do. Kill bandits, plug leaks, bring X item to Y vendor. Dynamic events where a town is being taken over is the same…the amount of risen to take over a camp in Orr is the same static number hidden behind a progress number. Its the same stuff, just done a bit better.

Specifically about combat, Teras combat is way better than GW2 IMO but I personally feel that Neverwinter might take the cake.

Tera’s rooting is horrendous. Nothing destroys the flow of battle worse than not being able to flow in battle. I’ve completely lost the desire to ever experience stop action combat again.

Animation lock you are referring to. It prevents you from brainlessly spamming abilities. You think out each action because there is a consequence: animation lock.

In GW2, and not saying GW2 system is terribad, but at times you do feel like you are spamming abilities. On my necro, I run a staff / D+WH. I run through staff 2,3,4 weapon switch, 5 , 2…spamming through my abilities without a lot of thought or consequence. In Tera, you have to position yourself, make sure you are not going to be walloped by the boss, and go through the rotation and try to get off the chain attacks as well..

rotharos.5427:

Gibson.4036:

I’d much rather this apply to DEs rather than hearts. Hearts were a compromise because testers were confused that there were no “quests”. They are there just to breadcrumb us out into the world where we will encounter DEs. Hence the drop off of hearts in the last zones of the game. They’re a transitional tool from what people expect from MMORPGs, to what GW2 was trying to do.

Leave hearts a one-time deal for zone completion, then give us more useful endgame reward for going back and finding DEs in all zones.

I would like DE too, but I feel it is a little harder to implement.

Would the DE be repeatable? If it is repeatable will people farm easy DEs?

If it is not repeatable, how do you keep track of DEs you have done?

Well, keeping track of ones you did is a good idea, if they gave us that ability. But then it also restricts you. “oh look an event, oops..cant. Ive already done it..”

I would just say for a given zone, say Bloodtide Coast, you have to complete 50 dynamic events for the chest(which rewards …whatever is decided. 5-10 T6, a laurel, karma, and a gold or something…reward is negotiable). This way, while completing hearts, you can also complete events in tandem. You might find people on efficient routes in some zones, but after 50 completions, its pointless for them. Not to mention, have these people also completed all the hearts in the zone yet? And do we as a playerbase have the brain power to map out the most efficient dynamic event train path for every zone? Because this concept encourages you to go to different zones.

Gibson.4036:

I’d much rather this apply to DEs rather than hearts. Hearts were a compromise because testers were confused that there were no “quests”. They are there just to breadcrumb us out into the world where we will encounter DEs. Hence the drop off of hearts in the last zones of the game. They’re a transitional tool from what people expect from MMORPGs, to what GW2 was trying to do.

Leave hearts a one-time deal for zone completion, then give us more useful endgame reward for going back and finding DEs in all zones.

I say both. I definately want this introduced for DEs too because thats the core of the game. Out in the world doing events. But since DEs are repeatable, and reset in 10 minutes or something, you want to avoid the champ train. So, have the reward for completing X number of events cap out at ..50 or something for an individual zone.

Headless.3718:

people will still look for the best spot to farm and ignore the rest.

You missed the point. There is no farming.
Once a renown heart is complete, it is done for the month. You can’t repeat it. Once a zone is done, you can’t repeat it. If you wish to get these rewards again, go to the next zone.

I don’t know if you can find an efficient ‘heart farming train’ path type of deal here. A heart in Iron Marches is just as easy to complete as one in queensdale.

Aye.8392:

Nike.2631:

Aeonblade.8709:

Want to chime in with this small thought:

Time gates have no place whatsoever in a supposedly casual and player friendly / grind free game.

This is not true.

The point of time gating isn’t “You can ever catch up faster than once per day while you are in game at all”

It’s “You can never fall behind faster than 1 per day while you’re gone.”

Any change directed toward alleviating the first statement has to not invalidate the second…

Time gates grind their boots of the faces of people who play for 8 hours a day far more vigorously than they do on people who log in for 45 minutes.

Where improvement seems possible to me is maybe some of those gates can be “saved up”. If you were gone for most of a week, would it be wrong for the game to let you to finish today’s set of dailes, then have yesterday’s pop-up, and if you finished those have the day before that pop up, and so on until you’ve back-tracked through as many as you care to from the days you decided going skiing was more important than logging in…?

This! I hadn’t thought of it in quite these terms before, seeing only what time-gating takes away from me, but you are exactly spot on. Having some way to catch up to the pace that A-Net has decided is okay would be a huge boon for the players that can’t be in every day.

I dont think Nike or Aeonblade are wrong. Its a question of “do you look at the glass half full or half empty”.

I have no vested interest in the concept of time gating. To me, its OK. But I can see why people are irate.

Sytherek.7689:

Ascended gear is only progression if you like the skins or magenta lettering — or if you think the minor stats increase matters in a game mode you play (such as WvW). Otherwise, there is no reason to get ascended armor.

Which is fine. In GW1, obsidian armor was pure vanity, and that’s fine.

But ascended armor is not progression for many players I talk to, or me. I’ve looked at it, and see no reason a non-WvW player like me should go thru the pain to get it.

So what’s meaningful progression for me? Most people in this thread are focused on ascended armor; what about those of us who have no interest in grinding it?

And I have posted ideas, only to see them lost in the ascended frenzy.

Ascended gear is required for FoTM. You will die a lot without it. There are fights that have an agony check at the start of the fight(literally, you walk into the area and random agony hits you to check your AR..those people that go down dont have enough and shouldnt be there).

Ascended gear in WvW…debatable if its needed. Ive noticed a decrease in my power compared to most people since my WvW toon doesnt have much ascended gear. But that could just be my perception.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

cesmode.4257:

We’ve talked about ascended runes/sigls as I think there are a number of balance issues with the current runes and sigils and it would allow us to make some tweaks to it that are harder to make without it but I don’t think we feel any need to do it yet and maybe not even at all. We have talked about how we are going to bring Jewel crafting and Cooking up to 500 but overall we really want to see how armor pans out and we would like to spend our time more on horizontal progression.

Hi, Thanks for the response! Get the email or the post-it note?

So this is semi comforting that you have not definitively decided on doing it yet, or if at all. I definately agree that JC and cooking need a boost and judging by this thread I think these are areas where you can lighten up on the requirements to craft in these disciplines. And it is good to hear that now that ascended armor is here, you are turning your focus to horizontal progression.

Question: How would it make your job easier to tweak balance issues if ascended sigils and runes were introduced, vs simply tweaking the existing ones? I don’t understand this.

Also, and one thing to keep in mind: If you ever decided to go ahead with introducing ascended sigils and runes, please allow them to be put into exotic gear. This would not force a player to grind up to 500 in a craft just to get these items.

While I could see how ascended gear feels like our focus as been on vertical progression I don’t feel like that is the case we spend a lot more time adding many things I would consider horizontal progression. I feel like new stat combos, skins, skills, traits, crafting recipes, mini pets, achievements, ect… are all horizontal progression and we have spent a lot more time and resources on expanding those systems by far.

Ascended Runes/Sigils: This is mainly an issue with acquisition of the exotic ones there is just a large number of worthless runes mainly due to the balance between supply and demand, while I think there are a number of balance tweaks needed to bring more in line I don’t think the total supply of all runes/sigils comes anywhere near the total demand for all runes and sigils which means over time runes and sigils value just gets less and less. It’s much harder to change that as it requires changing the value of a lot of current items. There are other systems we could do to fix this problem like we could make there be a less chance to salvage them out or make all runes/sigils crafting and when you salvage them you get some material that is used so we can adjust supply and demand between those.

Our system doesn’t really support limiting upgrades by rarity and I don’t think this is something we would do if we wanted to go that route we would just make infusions better sense they are naturally limited by ascended gear but that’s also a can of worms.

Hi,
Had to think about this for a few minutes while eating my chicken parm sammich.

I did not intend to mean that the sole focus has been VP. I definately recognize the amount of skins being pumped into the game, along with minis, etc. But in terms of impact and major announcements, VP seems to have taken the stage. Just my view.

Concerning the second paragraph: If coming by the exotic versions of these items is too difficult, simply allow folks to upgrade rare to exotic then to ascended, or ascend straight from rare to ascended via a formula. Or, again(you can see a trend in my responses), a vendor..pay him karma to ascend the item. I truly think karma is universal in the game and could reduce the amount of currencies you have, and also prop up a myriad of activities. Anything that rewards karma, which is nearly everything, would be working toward your goal of ascending sigils/runes, or whatever other uses you decide to give karma. Its there already. Just need to give it more purpose.

So, if I am reading your second paragraph correctly, you’re saying the current system does not limit upgrading on rarity. So, I could theoretically have a Masterwork armor piece, and throw an ascended upgrade in there(why would I..no idea). If this is the case, I am OK with it. If ascended upgrades are introduced, like you say, they should follow the same layout as the other sigils and runes where they can be placed on any rarity. We have come to an accord on this, sir. (unless I mis-read )

Aye.8392:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I encourage everyone to read this thread which was recently created.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-if-hearts-were-repeatable-for-T6/first#post3386694

The OP had an amazing idea to get players back into the open world, and provide players with another method of T6/end game materials (or can be designed to include actual gear) acquisition which I feel is relevant to this topic.

Summary: At max level, have each map/renown heart completable once per month. The hearts reward T6 materials(the quantity is up for debate). Full map completion in a zone(hearts only…) would reward something substantial like a core, 5 ects, and whatever else.

Heck, extend this idea to Dynamic Events. "Complete 10 events for X items, 25 for X+X items, 50, 100, and so on.

This entire idea serves multiple purposes:
1. Gets players into the open world, into any zone(really, all zones because once you’ve re-completed all the renown hearts in one zone, you can go onto the next zone of your choosing…same thing with the Dynamic Event idea I proposed).
2. Rewards max level players for simply playing the game.
3.Whether youre creating a legendary, ascended armor/weapons, or whatever..you could be working toward character progression.

I love this idea…the rewards have to be just right. One T6 item for a renown heart won’t work, but this can be debated.

Having a book, like those used in GW1 for repeating missions that could be turned in for Faction gain, would be reasonable — or possibly separate books for Ascalon, Kryta, etc. You do something, a page fills, you complete a book and turn it in at a collector for the designated reward whether that be mats or tokens toward gear.

ps: I already never want to do another heart for the rest of my life, but I love doing events, dungeons, jumping puzzles, or simply rampaging through a zone with my wonderful guildies. I would also really love some type of journal that let me know if I were missing events that happen in a specific area — combining these things with gear acquisition would be great.

To each his own, I loved the renown heart and I love DEs too. I extended the OP’s idea to include dynamic events.

And a journal of completed DEs in each zone would be nice.

Moira Shalaar.5620:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I encourage everyone to read this thread which was recently created.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-if-hearts-were-repeatable-for-T6/first#post3386694

The OP had an amazing idea to get players back into the open world, and provide players with another method of T6/end game materials (or can be designed to include actual gear) acquisition which I feel is relevant to this topic.

Summary: At max level, have each map/renown heart completable once per month. The hearts reward T6 materials(the quantity is up for debate). Full map completion in a zone(hearts only…) would reward something substantial like a core, 5 ects, and whatever else.

I posted in that thread but would like to second the idea here as well. This is a horizontal progression rather than vertical, but in IMHO is one of the very best suggestions yet for horizontal progression. It benefits both casual and hardcore gamers, utilizing content that is already in place. Heart color could be used to differentiate between hearts that have been redone and those which have not, with color resetting when the month ends.

The only thing I would add is that there should also be a significant reward for those who manage to redo all the hearts in the world map in a month’s time. Perhaps an ascended weapon/armor box?

I personally think it this lends more to VP than horizontal because you are getting materials for crafting in the VP system.

Either way…your last sentence. If someone manages to do the entire map in a month, they get a full armor set Thats a lot of work.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

Some other interesting ways we could midigate the pressure on alts is just make all ascended gear account bound it would remove some demand but it’s something we’ve discussed before. Another idea is we could make it easier to craft ascended gear after you’ve made the first set, or we could allow you to duplicate ascended gear with some recipe so once you’ve created one set you can copy it for an alt for less. You could allow people to give up other time gates for the crafting one by letting people craft stuff with laurals or mystic coins. These are all some of the ideas or concepts we toss around for how to solve some of the alt issues. As for crafting your first set of ascended gear we want this to take a bit of time before you get to our horizontal progression systems. These are all some random brainstorm ideas that need a lot more vetting but I wanted to give some examples of other ways to work around some of these issues.

Good stuff.

The bolded: How about make it simple…cost karma? Bring the ascended armor set to a vendor, have him duplicate the pieces for karma?

The trick is that one player might run a zerker set for dungeons, but a more surviviability set or condition set for fractals. Allowing us to choose the stats on the duplicated item would need to be there too..otherwise its almost wasted unless all of your characters run the same stat setup.

Aeonblade.8709:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I encourage everyone to read this thread which was recently created.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-if-hearts-were-repeatable-for-T6/first#post3386694

The OP had an amazing idea to get players back into the open world, and provide players with another method of T6/end game materials (or can be designed to include actual gear) acquisition which I feel is relevant to this topic.

Summary: At max level, have each map/renown heart completable once per month. The hearts reward T6 materials(the quantity is up for debate). Full map completion in a zone(hearts only…) would reward something substantial like a core, 5 ects, and whatever else.

Heck, extend this idea to Dynamic Events. "Complete 10 events for X items, 25 for X+X items, 50, 100, and so on.

This entire idea serves multiple purposes:
1. Gets players into the open world, into any zone(really, all zones because once you’ve re-completed all the renown hearts in one zone, you can go onto the next zone of your choosing…same thing with the Dynamic Event idea I proposed).
2. Rewards max level players for simply playing the game.
3.Whether youre creating a legendary, ascended armor/weapons, or whatever..you could be working toward character progression.

I love this idea…the rewards have to be just right. One T6 item for a renown heart won’t work, but this can be debated.

I was reading that thread as well, I’m glad that idea got transplanted over to this thread. This would help immensely with mat farming concerns and the new tier of ascended armors. I’m in full support of repeatable hearts as long as the reward is worth the time invested (I.E. 1 T6 mat and 1 RNG based mat sounds good)

I agree, but I think the reward could be a smidge higher. Just a smidge. The idea itself is good to get people into the world again initially. After a while, they may see that its not worth the time spent and go back to champ farming.

Theres so much wasted potential, so much wasted content in the game because people found efficiency in champ farming and things of that sort. If suddenly the entire world became an oyster, woah! Imagine any day of the week, any time, any zone you will find people of all levels doing renown hearts.

I had even suggested to extend this to dynamic events too. Just throwing numbers out there, but 100 completed events in a zone would net you a chest that has anywhere from 10-20 T6 mats). Again, just throwing numbers out there, but you get the idea. Why stop at renown hearts? Make all the content relevant again.

I think this idea alone, if done correctly, would nearly 180 my views on the game in a positive way because THIS is the game I thought I would be playing when I bought GW2. An adventurer in any zone I wanted, doing whatever content I wanted. And not feeling left behind or unproductive.

Rama.6439:

ptitminou.6489:

Sirendor.1394:

Xenon.4537:

Sirendor.1394:

Maybe we should also introduce the balance of skill-reward into this discussion, since it is something which seems incredibly off balance in the case of ascended armour.

My biggest concern is that the vertical progression we have seen now requires no skill, but a lot of time:
- Gold is the main thing you need (200g per craft + 60g per piece)
- Gold is gained mostly through rather easy activities: dungeons, champion farms, world bosses
- Gold is very very low in challenging content: PvP is debatably one of the least rewarding areas of the game, Jumping Puzzles aswell.

Why do the most easy things in the game give more gold than the kittenes?

• Create a division where a small % of the players have access, and thus leave out a large % of players, which is contrary to Anet’s belief that everything should be accessible (playable) to everyone.

Of course that is not what we want, but the current situation is even worse. People who do harder content get less rewards. Sort of a reversed world. Anet wants me to go champ farming (aka. easiest content there is) to earn something, which I can’t earn by doing small scale, no zerg PvP (probably highest skill requirement).

I laugh everytime I see people think “skills” is just pressing buttons on a keyboard. Seriously? Also, this is a character progression thread, not a “plx rwrd my playstyle mor than others” thread. Albeit slower, your grandma can press keys on a keyboard too and speed is not a skill.

I beg to differ, speed is a skill, ask any athlete. And what you consider skills, others might laugh at, so don’t laugh at others, cause you could be laughing at someone you know or might consider a friend.

On this, I would say that some of you elementalists can play the class, especially d/d and s/d, like a piano. Something I can’t do. You have way more skill than I.

On the topic of rewards(“reward my playstyle”) rewards tie into progression. Very relevant.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

cesmode.4257

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of
1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <— thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.
Dyin’ to know this one.
Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

We’ve talked about ascended runes/sigls as I think there are a number of balance issues with the current runes and sigils and it would allow us to make some tweaks to it that are harder to make without it but I don’t think we feel any need to do it yet and maybe not even at all. We have talked about how we are going to bring Jewel crafting and Cooking up to 500 but overall we really want to see how armor pans out and we would like to spend our time more on horizontal progression.

Hi, Thanks for the response! Get the email or the post-it note?

So this is semi comforting that you have not definitively decided on doing it yet, or if at all. I definately agree that JC and cooking need a boost and judging by this thread I think these are areas where you can lighten up on the requirements to craft in these disciplines. And it is good to hear that now that ascended armor is here, you are turning your focus to horizontal progression.

Question: How would it make your job easier to tweak balance issues if ascended sigils and runes were introduced, vs simply tweaking the existing ones? I don’t understand this.

Also, and one thing to keep in mind: If you ever decided to go ahead with introducing ascended sigils and runes, please allow them to be put into exotic gear. This would not force a player to grind up to 500 in a craft just to get these items.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I like this idea. It would get people out into the world again. It would need some sort of tracking system. Maybe turn the hearts a different color when you complete them for the monthly.

This would really make the game come alive again imo.

Though this will take away from the living story which forces everyone to stay in one zone to give the appearance of a high population, which makes it seem unlikely that Anet would do something like this.

I completely 10000% agree that this would make all of the zones come to life again because once you map complete(hearts and maybe DEs only), you can move to another zone and continue on. My gosh, this would awsome.

About cutting into the LS…maybe. Whether or not thats a good thing? I would like to think that arenanet does not deliberately funnel us into one zone to give the appearance of a healthy population in open world. Id like to think that they would rather us spread out and complete events together instead of zergging around.

Hi, I encourage everyone to read this thread which was recently created.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-if-hearts-were-repeatable-for-T6/first#post3386694

The OP had an amazing idea to get players back into the open world, and provide players with another method of T6/end game materials (or can be designed to include actual gear) acquisition which I feel is relevant to this topic.

Summary: At max level, have each map/renown heart completable once per month. The hearts reward T6 materials(the quantity is up for debate). Full map completion in a zone(hearts only…) would reward something substantial like a core, 5 ects, and whatever else.

Heck, extend this idea to Dynamic Events. "Complete 10 events for X items, 25 for X+X items, 50, 100, and so on.

This entire idea serves multiple purposes:
1. Gets players into the open world, into any zone(really, all zones because once you’ve re-completed all the renown hearts in one zone, you can go onto the next zone of your choosing…same thing with the Dynamic Event idea I proposed).
2. Rewards max level players for simply playing the game.
3.Whether youre creating a legendary, ascended armor/weapons, or whatever..you could be working toward character progression.

I love this idea…the rewards have to be just right. One T6 item for a renown heart won’t work, but this can be debated.

Holy hell, the OP is onto something here. I REALLY REALLY like this idea.

Don’t mind if I copy and paste the link to this thread. This is a great idea and will serve many purposes…just needs to be tweaked.

I’ll say for class mechanics within combat…Mesmer has to be the most well thought and constructed classes Ive played in any MMO. Just love it. Even though its not my main..well sort of it is.

Pawstruck.9708:

Of course Tera has great combat. That’s ALL it has!

I literally did a quest in Tera to kill 10 XYZ’s, turned it in, and got ANOTHER QUEST TO DO THE SAME THING. lol. The combat system’s not archaic, but the questing system and the rest of the game is.

Well, if you thnk about it: GW2’s renown hearts are the same thing. Only, you can choose what you want to do. Kill bandits, plug leaks, bring X item to Y vendor. Dynamic events where a town is being taken over is the same…the amount of risen to take over a camp in Orr is the same static number hidden behind a progress number. Its the same stuff, just done a bit better.

Specifically about combat, Teras combat is way better than GW2 IMO but I personally feel that Neverwinter might take the cake.

This is an interesting topic.

Id only be in favor of this if the larger events, such kitten, Teq, etc..happened less frequently AND if there was an in game HUD that displayed the spawn timers on these events.

Yamiga.7863:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Achievement points should be the only form of vertical progression in this game.

I may be wrong, but aren’t achievement points horizontal progression?

If I didnt know better from reading Kuru’s posts, Id say this was trolling

But seriously, in most games achievements are for nothing but titles and vanity. The fact that GW2 is rewarding you as it currently does is pushing the envelop. I mentioned this stuff to a few of my friends who play other MMOs and they said “ew…rewards for achievements? Thats a sticky topic”.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Achievement points should be the only form of vertical progression in this game.

I disagree, 100%. Placing VP on achievement points solves nothing IMO. IT shows you play the game a lot. It shows that you can grind a lot. Some of it skillful like jumping puzzles, but basically, you just play the game a lot and do EVERYTHING.

For example, the majority of people are satisfied with completing 5/5 for the daily. The AP progression crowd will do them all, every daily, and try to get as many achievements in every other category. When you start placing reward on AP progression, thats a slippery slope.

I think the current reward structure for AP is sufficient and should be the maximum reward. Adding any VP to it, and youre asking for trouble.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

cesmode.4257:

Hi,
Concerning World bosses and reward…
Since returning to GW2 a month or two ago, I had not done Teq because no one does it anymore. Only a small handful of servers do it, or capable of it seems.

Finally, last night I did it. While all the boxes to open were cool, not one exotic dropped. And even if an exotic dropped, who cares? I want BiS gear from a fight like that.

So my contribution to this thread is in regard to alternate routes of acquiring ascended gear. If you are able to be in an overflow or on a server or part of a guild that is organized and skilled enough to take down a fight like Teq that requires 80+ people, you should be rewarded with a garunteed ascended item of your choice(stat wise). No discussion. That fight is nicely involved, time consuming…and leaps and bounds harder than anything else in the game. You cant give me 3 or 4 rares, a handful of T5 mats and a few silver for it. It needs to end with an ascended piece. No getting around it.

So all the 80 people (even the 30+ that did nothing but spamming 1) should get a BIS gear from an open world boss like that? I don’t think so.

If it were a battle like Liadri I’d totally agree, but not if that much random players are involved who may not contribute in that fight at all. Yes it is a difficult battle, but it’s mainly about organization, not personal skill.

I still think rewards should be much better at Tequatl. But a guaranteed piece of Ascended is too much for fights with the number of people like this.

Imho the open world needs more challenges for smaller groups. How could you guarantee that only few people participate and the battle mechanics aren’t broken by a zerg?: learn from Queens Gauntlet and put people in a area where only small groups/solos can fight.

The only thing I can think of is this:

Design a reward system that ranks everyone who has engaged the boss. Have the system calculate:
-the amount of times you rez someone
-the amount of healing throughput from you
-the amount of damage throughput from you
-the amount of boons/durations
-general activity uptime
-have the amount of times you die become a negative factor in the equation.

Calculate all of this and reward people accordingly. Out of, say 100 people on a Teq fight, top 25% receive garunteed ascended drop and the current loot table. Next 25% receive the current loot table, and figure out something else for the next two quartiles of people.

Its the only thing I can think of that will reward players for actively rezzing, buffing, doing DPS, and plainly doing something other than auto attacking. And it would not reward those that sit there and auto attack.

I some what agree with you even if it contradicts what I said in my previous post. However, If thats true, then this game’s reward structure is a failure and cannot be fixed. Because to date, Teq is the most challenging fight for open world play.

If at the core GW2 is about open world gameplay, and if this design philosophy fosters large amounts of people beating on a boss then you’re absolutely right. The people spamming #1 will get rewarded much like the people dropping rez banners or manning turrets. And this is not good. And you cannot force these people to do something other than spam #1, since they can get lost in the sea of people and just auto attack to their hearts content.

If the most difficult fight in the game for open world play cannot pay out and reward those who actually TRY, then there is no hope for risk vs reward in this game. There is no hope for character progression and loot acquisition in this game.

Reesha.7901:

cesmode.4257:

Hi,
Concerning World bosses and reward…
Since returning to GW2 a month or two ago, I had not done Teq because no one does it anymore. Only a small handful of servers do it, or capable of it seems.

Finally, last night I did it. While all the boxes to open were cool, not one exotic dropped. And even if an exotic dropped, who cares? I want BiS gear from a fight like that.

So my contribution to this thread is in regard to alternate routes of acquiring ascended gear. If you are able to be in an overflow or on a server or part of a guild that is organized and skilled enough to take down a fight like Teq that requires 80+ people, you should be rewarded with a garunteed ascended item of your choice(stat wise). No discussion. That fight is nicely involved, time consuming…and leaps and bounds harder than anything else in the game. You cant give me 3 or 4 rares, a handful of T5 mats and a few silver for it. It needs to end with an ascended piece. No getting around it.

After killing him more than 100 times, I am yet to see anything interesting drop, so I can’t say I disagree with you. :-)

I mean, don’t get me wrong…the Teq loot was far better than SB or Jormag loot. I did get 4 rares, which salved into 2 or 3 ectos. I might have gotten a charged core or so, maybe 1 or two T6 mats. The rest was greens and blues to be salvaged. So compare the 1 or 2 T6 mats, 2 or 3 ectos, and the profit from a core…next to the mountain of requirements for an ascended weapon. I moved an inch along a mile long race track. The boss kill was a rewarding feeling, and compared to other loot tables in GW2 it felt rewarding..but then thinking about how much of this stuff I need and what other loot/reward systems are in other games, any ecstasy was quickly…and I mean quickly deflated.

Did I feel like my character progressed after an 80+ person epic fight? No.
In WoW, did I feel like my character progressed after a Sindragosa fight in a 10 man raid? 50/50 chance either yes or not. And if not the first time, I bet the second time I will feel the progression. Compared to the second time of Tequatl, where I only feel an inch of it.

Hi,
Concerning World bosses and reward…
Since returning to GW2 a month or two ago, I had not done Teq because no one does it anymore. Only a small handful of servers do it, or capable of it seems.

Finally, last night I did it. While all the boxes to open were cool, not one exotic dropped. And even if an exotic dropped, who cares? I want BiS gear from a fight like that.

So my contribution to this thread is in regard to alternate routes of acquiring ascended gear. If you are able to be in an overflow or on a server or part of a guild that is organized and skilled enough to take down a fight like Teq that requires 80+ people, you should be rewarded with a garunteed ascended item of your choice(stat wise). No discussion. That fight is nicely involved, time consuming…and leaps and bounds harder than anything else in the game. You cant give me 3 or 4 rares, a handful of T5 mats and a few silver for it. It needs to end with an ascended piece. No getting around it.

Stars.2179:

They are changing one boss at time. Teq was the first. Next is probably Shatter or Claw of Jormag. Eventually none of the higher level world boss would be farmable unless you get a coordinated guild / server group of like 100 people. Get your dragonites now while you can.

If they change all bosses to be like the Teq fight(and I doubt they are), then they better up the rewards. Gaurunteed ascended piece of a stat combo of your chose. No if’s ands or buts. Infact, this suggestion going right into the CDI now

Hi,
One thing I want to mention when discussion gear progression, or character progression in general…

Comparing two systems(brace yourself)… World of Warcraft vs GW2.

To acquire BiS gear in WoW:
-Defeat raid bosses and hope that you gear drops.
-This requires team work, communication, skill.
-Either the actual piece to equip drops, or it doesnt.
-There is no "Well I defeated X boss again for Y amount of materials. Probably another 10-12 kills and I have enough dragonite for one ingot…No No, Im either rewarded with the item that I need, or Im not. If I don’t get it, I might get it on the next kill.
-**Note, BiS gear is not required in anything but Raids in WoW.

To acquire BiS gear in GW2:
-Farm temples, world bosses, dungeons, jumping puzzles, nodes, and play the TP to acquire resources
-Level up crafting
-Sit behind the time gate until you have enough of the material to craft a piece.
-**Note, you do not need BiS gear for anything but fractals(similar to WoW…no?)

The difference between the two here: I defeated a boss in WoW for a drop. The feeling of “phew, we did it…time for loot. gasp, hold breath…Yay my dagger dropped! /roll”. Vs GW2 "<boss dead>, “Dwayna next?…need more dragonite ore”.

You farm the hell out of the bosses and events in GW2, whereas in WoW you might only fight a boss a few times before a drop. The reward drops in WoW are much more rewarding because after a hard battle, you may get what you need vs bread crumbs received in GW2. You truly feel a sense of accomplishment and reward…time well spent. Progression. You have a 50/50 chance of getting an item to equip after a boss fight…something measurable, quantifiable. After the raid, you compare stats between the two items, the one you are replacing and the one you just gained…seeing what the difference will be. In GW2, after that Dwayna event, or Tequatl fight, you walk away with nothing but a handful of karma, a smattering of silver, and a sack full of materials and you may be a few inches closer to the mile marker which is your ultimate goal.

Just my 2 cents on RNG vs materials gathering. Many will disagree with me. But can these people honestly say that defeating Ragnaros in cataclysm or HM Lich King in WOTLK for that uber drop was less rewarding than farming SB/Jormag/Dwayna/Lyss/Grenth/Teq 100x? You would rather do this?

@OP:

I agree with you, this is a very grindy game. Much of it is not needed but thanks to the human psychy, we feel compelled to do it. We feel compelled to chase that carrot and get the absolute best gear we can, not because we need it because we want it. I feel that devs prey on this compulsion.

Some people can get by without doing the grind, and to them I salute. But for us lemmings, it is not so easy. Shrugging this concern off as a “Well thats your problem, you don’t need it in GW2” is naive and shortsighted. I dont need raid gear in WoW to run dungeons, dallies, explore the world, level up crafts, etc… but I raided because I wanted it. I don’t need ascended gear in GW2 to run dungeons, open world content, level up crafts, etc…but I want it. The only difference between the GW2 grind and a WoW grind for BiS gear is that in WoW, I am EARNING my keep by defeating difficult bosses and encounters, spending weeks wiping and learning fights and finally getting the drops I need vs GW2 where I sit in the sea of name tags and fire my lasers at Jormag, SB, Dwayna, etc. Run farming routes in Orr for high level mats…dungeon grind. All of these are quasi trivial when compared to the requirement in WoW where you need team work and skill to defeat boss encounters for BiS loot. In GW2, all I need is time and a lot of players on the map so I can get lost in the sea of people.

BiS gear in GW2 requires no skill. Just time or massive income.

This is where I think we go wrong here.

However, again, you dont need it….yet. I will probably pass on ascended armor once I get my weapons because the gap is minimal. Once ascended upgrades are introduced to the game, thats when I contemplate a graceful exit.

Concerning alts and progression:

Right now, I play my alts because:
1. They might have a WP unlocked that I need.
2. They might be better suited for the content
3. Im bored with my main.

If I were given more of a reason to play my alts other than the above, or if there were some sort of character progression for them that did not involve a grind of materials ala Ascended Gear, that would give me more reasons to keep logging into the game.

Not that I have anything invested in an sPvP discussion, but just to push things along, what do people think about sPvP character progression, and/or the changes recently made?

Even though ascended gear, vertical vs horizontal, still very much on my mind and I have two unanswered questions lingering, I figure I could give some of the people who are frustrated with the ascended gear VP vs HP discussion a break and push a small discussion in another direction.

sPvP char progression… Does it belong in the game? Are you satisfied? What changes to be made? Risks, rewards?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

cesmode.4257:

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

You mean to say, they do not work 20 hours per day and love it? What is this witch craft?!

Go get your daily done and get to sleep!

And then answer the question(kidding).

But maybe you could leave a post-it on his desk tomorrow morning! haha.

kelman.9451:

One thing I did like in a game called Warhammer Online was the fact enemies could not walk through each other, so you could create a bit of a tank wall in some choke points, which I think is was a pretty cool idea, not sure how it would work in GW2. I kind of miss the the hard core tank, dps, healer, and support classes. But yes GW2 combat I think is pretty good overall.

Thats called collision. It would most definately not work in GW2. Well, at least not friendly player collision. Since a lot of the content is open world, and fosters a zerg mentality, that would be a nightmare.

It works in true action combat games though…

I play alone, unless I am doing some WvW then its with the guild.

My friends quit the game long long ago..about a year ago now. Three went back to WoW, my brother stopped playing MMOs all together.

Servanin.5021:

I feel its a little too uninvolved. During champion events, I find on my Mesmer, I just prop myself up a good 900 range away (To account for the mobs slightly moving around), get my phantasms up, turn on auto-attack and either alt tab out or sell things on the market.

Thats not an isolated situation or even being lazy. There are a lot of weapons where auto-attack outdoes all your other skills.

Was sort of hoping for Vindictus, that didn’t suffer from F2P syndrome and low budget when I got it. I do like the idea of being able to take care of yourself though.

Combat vs content. If arenanet loves the idea of zergs, then yes combat becomes dull and boring. If arenanet moves away from zerg content, then combat becomes interesting again.

Champ train in queensdale — Boring combat.

The Alpha boss in CoE — Pretty good combat.

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

The Lost Witch.7601:

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

Pro’s
- Time gates help players with less time (If I can only play an hour a day, my time is more rewarded.)
- Repeatable time gates add “pressure” to log in which helps create possible reward loops and play patterns (I want to log in every day, which often can become play experiences, talk with friends, strengthen relationships and get players into a pattern of seeing what’s going on.)

These two have their own con’s:

- If I can only play an hour a day, I don’t want to spend any of that time loading into Lions Arch to do my crafting and do my daily. Yet that is what I often find myself doing, and it freaks me out.
- I don’t want to log in every day, I need to spend some time on something else. I want to put GW2 away for a few weeks and invest in other parts of life. (Be it other forms of play/studying/traveling/social calls/an intense working period or who knows what.) But I will be ‘behind’ on progress if I don’t log in. And it is so ‘easy’ to just log in and get those time gated things done… but they make it really hard to take a break!

You make a fair point, but these should really be a part of the con’s in your list!

Regarding logging in every day…this touches on another area that has yet to be really mentioned here(and Im not sure it belongs here or not). The ‘pressure’ to log in and do XYZ in order to stay on par, as much as possible, with the masses.

I don’t like these sorts of pressures in a game, especially gw2 but I am unsure how to remedy it since it has been put into the game.

My overall opinions on timegating:

I dont necessarily hate it or love it. I think its OK, especially for the reasons Mr Cartwright laid out. It prevents me from going into overload to rush rush rush to craft everything at once, so I can do my one or two time gated things per day, and go do other things.

So I guess its OK for me.

Edit: I play about 30-40 hours per week, so I am right in the middle between ‘casual’ and ‘semi hardcore’…so my opinions on time gating have nothing to do with my available play time.