Guild Wars 2

Latinkuro.9420:

I purposely didn’t log in to Guild Wars 2 for a week for 2 reasons:

- 1 to prevent burn out.
- 2 to see how I would view the game after a week of playing other mmo’s.

The result is well read on:

- In that week I played aion, STO, Rift, Neverwinter, Tera, Eden Eternal, Vindictus, Aura kingdom and so on you get the picture.

I stopped reading here.

Aion? STO? Tera?
You are comparing Guild Wars 2 to these games? Some of these games fell off their high horse and high rating long, long, LONG ago.

If you wanted a good comparison, compare GW2 to a game like WoW. Or wait a few months, and compare GW2 to Wildstar or TESO. Other than WoW, there isnt a more popular MMO right now than GW2. So comparing the second most popular and second most played MMO in the genre, to games that have only a few hundred thousand(just a guess) subscribers/active players each isnt much of a comparison.

So, while I agree GW2 can be hard to put down for any length of time, your comparison is nearly pointless because you are comparing a Ford Mustang with a Pontiac Bonneville.

Hi,
I am quite disappointed with this CDI thus far. (the horizontal progression piece)

I understand that it is the holiday season and people, including arenanet, have personal lives, vacations, etc. However, it dawned on me that this CDI is scheduled to end on January 6th, 4 days away. Where has the collaborative discussion been? We have had little to no interaction with arenanet since the Horizontal Progression discussion began. If all that was wanted from us was a top 3 list, why bother with a thread? Comb the suggestions forum/history for our ideas. Suggestions like Wardrobe are certainly to be there.

The verticle progression thread was much more spirited and we saw a great interaction between players and developers. But this thread has been almost entirely player driven, merely posting our top 3 ideas. If you wanted just a list of our top ideas, you could have sent us a survey. If this discussion was going to be so impersonal where we just list out our ideas, then why bother with a forum thread? If there is no interaction with arenanet on these topics, then why bother creating an ‘official’ discussion…you could simply review the threads we have posted during the previous entire year to obtain our ideas. The lack of feedback from Arenanet’s side has caused me to stop reviewing the thread, where previously in the Living Story and Verticle Progression threads I was quite active in because every now and then, a dev would respond to some of our feedback.

I would hope that with the holidays behind us, and only four days left for this thread, that we see much more back and forth between players and developers.

80 sylvari thief
80 slyvari mesmer
80 human warrior
80 human necromancer
80 norn guardian
69 human elementalist
35 asura engineer

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Hmm… horizontal progression + costume slots + lore + new weapons…

Imagine:

• every zone has zone progression

I mentioned something similar to this in the Living Story thread. Instead of ‘living story’, if arenanet’s aim is to accomplishing a living world, then some sort of zone progression so that we are completing currently existing dynamic events in all zones as a server. Lets face it, aside from a small % of people that enjoy going back to zones, they are largely empty in the sense that you might have 5-10 people on a map at a time, including levelers. Not very living. Give people reason to go back to zones to complete events, both for the server progression and for character horizontal progression.

I think that in open world, auto attack is all you need. You will have an army zerg behind you to back you up. Theres no thought process behind any of the fights excep teq.

This happens every patch. Even the number of rare nodes in a zone can change from patch to patch.

Good thread. A lot goes into decisions like this…animations, the way armor and weapons look on certain races and genders, overall theme you are going for etc.
However…in terms of looks and animations alone…(not considering what would fit a certain race or lore or whatever)…

Guardian – Male Sylvari
Thief – Male Sylvari
Warrior – Male Charr(or Norn..toss up).
Elementalist – Female human
Mesmer – Female human
Engineer – Male Norn or Male Asura

Calae.1738:

Excited? Well, Let’s see…

Darksouls 2
Watchdogs
Elder Scrolls Online
Wildstar
Warlords of Draenor
Destiny
The Division
Everquest Next

Yeah sure I’ll have more Scarlet and Ascended crafting because that’s a lot more fun.

EQN probably won’t be released until 2015. Landmark was pushed way back and you can assume the same for next.

The division, looks great, is expected late 2014…I expect it to be pushed.

Ah I totally forgot about the personality system. Currently, it seems completely, 110% pointless in game. I wonder if theres something that can be done with that?

Chris, I already posted my top 3, and I am not sure this should be in the top 3…its already in the game, you need to just find a way to work it into progression or make it more meaningful.

A page from…cough, SWTOR… Their personality system(forgot what it was called already), the choices you make in your personal story were either Light(good) or Dark(bad). Your physical appearance in game changed. If you chose more dark things, you would become paler and paler, and eventually your eyes would become crazy looking. Also, NPCs reacted to you differently. If you were dark, they would be afraid of you, and give you what you want. If you were light, they adored you and praised you. You also had access to different types of armors depending which allegience, dark side or light side.

Food for thought.

Ashen.2907:

cesmode.4257:

Withdrawn via karma.

Or, we deposit them via karma, and withdraw via karma.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of this added functionality for Karma.

Inorite? Adds more use to this universal currency.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Donari.5237:

Oh dear, Chris. You didn’t mention a skin locker or other skin management system. Perhaps that can be a swift change to your list?

Here are my clothes-horse necro’s bags, with all the different looks of boots and coats and skirts sorted out by type of garment and then from least to most coverage (those looking for Winged gloves and boots, they are on her to complement her Ascended coat/skirt). I also have over 4 bank tabs full of skins and dyes waiting for the right alt to receive them. Oh, how I’d rejoice to turn all that into a locker and free up the space for other things! I can’t even take her dungeoning because 20 free slots fill up too fast.

Hi Donari,

I certainly think that Wardrobe is a very important QOL improvement for Horizontal Progression if that makes sense?

Chris

Yes, this x 100000.
If you can code, it…so that any armor that you have obtained soulbound, ever, is stored there automatically. Withdrawn via karma.

Or, we deposit them via karma, and withdraw via karma.

Thoughts?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Morning/Afternoon All,

Lots of ideas and discussion. I think it would be useful now to list your top three favorite ideas with either a link to your favorite description of that idea in the thread or a single sentence description of your own.

Let’s start to refine the ideas, filter and reduce them down the core of what makes them great in your opinion.

Chris

1. Discoverable skills and abilities. Being able to find abilities just by playing any part of the game(and without some insane RNG percentage), would be nice.
2. Player Housing / Home Instance / Guild Halls — Make these decoratable.
3. Wardrobe – Be able to withdraw skins of any armor you have collected in game and have deposited in the wardrobe. The withdraw could cost some karma.

Make that two.
Grenth.
Participated in taking down the risen priest, and then defending keeper jones. No big chest at the end.

Im just going to stop playing guild wars 2 today. Wasting my time.

Hi, I am necro’ing this thread.
Just completed the Lyssa event on SBI, nearly from start to finish(captured the last point and then the entire fight against Lyssa herself). No chest.

One of the longer temple runs, and no chest. Disappointing. One year after launch and these types of bugs still exist? Could we please throw more dev time on polish and bug squashing?

Malchior: ty for the effort

Maths aside, its just something that Ive noticed over the past week or so since Ive had the pistols. I’ve noticed it on world bosses and dungeon bosses.

The most recent example was dwayna, over 14k in one unload. Ive never seen anywhere near that before, and Im using the same spec and have completed dwayna countless times.

Scrambles.2604:

cesmode.4257:

Hi,
So I finally crafted 3 ascended weapons for my thief: Shortbow, and two pistols.

I run with zerk gear, and a zerk build with a bit of survivability built in. Either way, I have not changed my build in almost a year, so it has gone through a lot of patches.

Before crafting the ascended weapons, I used to be able to chain together two or three unloads for about 8 or 9k each. Now, I am chaining together 11-14k unloads.

I am not sure what has changed, or if the small stat differential between ascended and exotic is more than whats on paper. I am definately noticing bigger numbers since crafting my ascended pistols, and not by a small margin.

Just thought I’d share …

So i take it your server is winning WvW now right? Because you saw a damage increase, WvW is now unbalanced and your server is leagues ahead of your 2 opponents?

The claims were true, this one guy has a stat increase and no other person on an opposing server has a similar stat increase. All balance is lost!

Disclaimer – this post is in response to the issue of ascended gear in WvW. I don’t know what else you could be talking about, so i apologize if i overlooked something.

Couldn’t be more off the mark buddy.

Just pointing out that I am seeing a 4-5k increase in dmg for an ability, which is cornerstone to a p/p build.

I have an ascended back piece, two rings, and amulet.

Then the 3 weapons, SB and P/P.

But I was getting 9k unloads for a year now, with the ascended gear I listed above. I then add in the ascended pistols, and Im getting 11-14k unloads. Thats an insane spike in damage. Everytime it happens, which is often, my jaw drops because the only class that I am used to seeing that kind of damage is a greatsword warrior(backstabbing thief aside).

Hi,
So I finally crafted 3 ascended weapons for my thief: Shortbow, and two pistols.

I run with zerk gear, and a zerk build with a bit of survivability built in. Either way, I have not changed my build in almost a year, so it has gone through a lot of patches.

Before crafting the ascended weapons, I used to be able to chain together two or three unloads for about 8 or 9k each. Now, I am chaining together 11-14k unloads.

I am not sure what has changed, or if the small stat differential between ascended and exotic is more than whats on paper. I am definately noticing bigger numbers since crafting my ascended pistols, and not by a small margin.

Just thought I’d share …

LA is packed on SBI

Kain Francois.4328:

Nike.2631:

Kain Francois.4328:

4 great lulz…

Hobo-Sacks
Because they ARE relevant to Horizontal Progression!

I cannot progress my back horizontally on my engineer. PLEEEEAAAAASE REMOVE THEM!

Quote for great justice, because it is kinda frustrating.

I am BEGGING ANET to PLEASE REMOVE THE STUPID HOBOSACK!

Nobody likes them! NOBODY! NOBODY!

It’s been more than a YEAR, and engineers STILL cant use backpacks? The same item type with skins being given out EVERY living story?

It’s not fair to lock us out of an entire part of the game. IT’S NOT FAIR! :’(

I hardly play an engi…lvl 30 something. Interesting and quarky. I can see your frustration, though you aren’t locked out of a ‘part of the game’. It was just a silly design decision and its one of those things where I can’t imagine they they didnt think that some people, or many people, would not want the big engi backpacks…and to launch the game with an option to turn that off for engineers.

Aeonblade.8709:

cesmode.4257:

Aeonblade.8709:

cesmode.4257:

Aeonblade.8709:

Someone asked why do the champion train in one of their earlier posts (sorry I can’t find it now).

Basically, because it’s one of the few areas of the game that are rewarding. I can go kill mobs in Orr and get nothing, or do the champ train and make nearly 5-10g an hour, depending on luck.

Champ trains are one of the only profitable areas of the game for a casual player.

How do you make 5-10 g per hour? Im lucky if I make 1 or 2. The silver you get from the bags and events are offset by the waypointing. Ive watched it closely and its either offsetting or you actually spend more $$ waypointing. So you rely on the champ bags. All I get from these are T5 mats, greens and blues, a skill point here and there, bloodstone dust. I salvage the greens and blues, the ‘large bone’ that I got from the bag might be worth 1.25 silver, and the rest isnt worth anything on the TP. The chance that rare drops is hardly worth the time. Exotic drops are a myth.

I see the champ train as a karma train. Pop a booster, and you get something like 300 or 400 karma per champ..quickly.

But in terms of coin..how do you profit? (serious question)

Don’t break down the greens and blues. Sell them on the TP. Some of them sell for 20-40 silver a pop. When you bring in 10 green items in 15 minutes, that adds up quick.

If a blue salvages into an Elder Wood (T5), this is worth more than selling the item outright on the TP, no?

It depends, always check before you salvage. I have sold blue items for 40 silver + depending on the item/supply/demand.

Keep in mind selling blues on the tp at 5-10 silver a pop is more reliable than relying on this game’s horrid RNG to give you higher tier crafting materials.

Oh I misread, you said silver not copper. If thats the case…you are correct sir.

Aeonblade.8709:

cesmode.4257:

Aeonblade.8709:

Someone asked why do the champion train in one of their earlier posts (sorry I can’t find it now).

Basically, because it’s one of the few areas of the game that are rewarding. I can go kill mobs in Orr and get nothing, or do the champ train and make nearly 5-10g an hour, depending on luck.

Champ trains are one of the only profitable areas of the game for a casual player.

How do you make 5-10 g per hour? Im lucky if I make 1 or 2. The silver you get from the bags and events are offset by the waypointing. Ive watched it closely and its either offsetting or you actually spend more $$ waypointing. So you rely on the champ bags. All I get from these are T5 mats, greens and blues, a skill point here and there, bloodstone dust. I salvage the greens and blues, the ‘large bone’ that I got from the bag might be worth 1.25 silver, and the rest isnt worth anything on the TP. The chance that rare drops is hardly worth the time. Exotic drops are a myth.

I see the champ train as a karma train. Pop a booster, and you get something like 300 or 400 karma per champ..quickly.

But in terms of coin..how do you profit? (serious question)

Don’t break down the greens and blues. Sell them on the TP. Some of them sell for 20-40 silver a pop. When you bring in 10 green items in 15 minutes, that adds up quick.

If a blue salvages into an Elder Wood (T5), this is worth more than selling the item outright on the TP, no?

Nike.2631:

cesmode.4257:

In Gw2…we work on cooldowns. And then we have traits to passively reduce the cooldowns vs the arcane mage where you actively manage your resource.

The resource is time. Ironically thieves are also the only class I can immediately think of that has active time management – the trait that allows steal to reset all the cooldowns on a cluster of skills sharing a tag.

Maybe we should be looking at cooldown resets for other classes… ((ponder))

Wait! I did just think of another – the new Mesmer Signet in the heal slot resets cooldowns for phantasm skills.

I think this mechanic shows great potential to make for more active gameplay…

And resource != charges aka mesmer clones for shattering or Warrior adrenaline.

Oh, I think any Mesmer who ever slotted Mirror Images would disagree with that statement. Mirror images is entirely a resource management skill. And the ways Warriors can manage their adrenaline is as diverse and rich as many “power/mana/whathaveyou” schemes in other MMOs.

You are correct, the resource is time. But unlike other resources, you can hardly manage it. You pop the ability, and then wait. You cannot use an ability to regen it quicker. Its more passive than active.

Aside from the arcane mage, the rogue is an example. Energy. You could have specced into a talent that crits return some energy spent, or misses return some energy lost. So your gameplay can keep your active combat going, rather than watching a number count down and theres nothing you can do to speed it up mid battle.

Edit: before reading the rest of your post, as I was writing this one I thought of the mesmer healing skill too. Thats a good start. I wish it weren’t tied to a healing ability though. Makes no sense. The mechanic should be tied to something else.

Edit again: Running a zerk mesmer…traited for shattering, after I have 3 illusions/clones, I will shatter them. Chances they will live to see the next 10 seconds are minimal. This is especially true in WvW.

Warriors…greatsword warriors are run of the mill…most common. Most of these warriors are traited that you do more dmg the more adrenaline you have. Spending the adrenaline reduces overall damage significantly. I never do this on my war.

Gnat.9405:

For a while I was kidding myself that the game was keeping me engaged, and the two week updates were just something extra. Now that there are no updates, and I’m done the two living world contents (after 2 days), I find myself completely at a loss for things to do.

If you’re still playing the game through the holiday break, what are you up to?

Sadly, its this type of…attitude, behavior…whatever for the reason of 2 week LS updates. Arenanet said that their data showed people stop playing after 2 weeks of a content update. So they sped it up. When people burn through it and then throw their hands up in the air wondering what to do next…well thats kind of where this all started.

If you are a self starter, you can find things to do.

On certain days I farm nodes all over tyria for an hour or two.
On certain nights i play WvW
On most nights I’ll run one or two dungeons.
On nights I don’t want to do anything, I’ll turn volume off, turn on a star trek episode and run around the QD champ train(against my better judgement).
On nights I want to work toward my ascended weaps, I’ll try to hit as many world bosses and temples as I can.
On nights I feel like being a completionist, I’ll work toward the rest of the jumping puzzles.
On all other nights, I am leveling my elementalist or engineer.

Ive got enough to do. Don’t need 2 week updates of fluffy crap. Id rather 3 month updates of legit stuff like skills, zones, mobs, lore, dungeons, etc.

Not to mention, tihs is a free to play game, non sub based. Arenanet is not required to keep your attention 24×7. They even said this, pre launch that its OK if you put the game down for a few days, a week, or a month.

While the gem store brings in enough $$ for them to support their 2 week cadence, they might not have the revenue that a sub game has to keep you going every single day for years.

Keep that in mind.

Aeonblade.8709:

Someone asked why do the champion train in one of their earlier posts (sorry I can’t find it now).

Basically, because it’s one of the few areas of the game that are rewarding. I can go kill mobs in Orr and get nothing, or do the champ train and make nearly 5-10g an hour, depending on luck.

Champ trains are one of the only profitable areas of the game for a casual player.

How do you make 5-10 g per hour? Im lucky if I make 1 or 2. The silver you get from the bags and events are offset by the waypointing. Ive watched it closely and its either offsetting or you actually spend more $$ waypointing. So you rely on the champ bags. All I get from these are T5 mats, greens and blues, a skill point here and there, bloodstone dust. I salvage the greens and blues, the ‘large bone’ that I got from the bag might be worth 1.25 silver, and the rest isnt worth anything on the TP. The chance that rare drops is hardly worth the time. Exotic drops are a myth.

I see the champ train as a karma train. Pop a booster, and you get something like 300 or 400 karma per champ..quickly.

But in terms of coin..how do you profit? (serious question)

Evogrin.6027:

I think that A-net hears what the community has been asking for… Stuff like class reworks don’t just happen overnight, which is why we haven’t seen them yet.. I would say look forward to some changes in the way LS works, new Legendaries, more permanent content (like Southsun), fixes for some class structure problems, and more content for spvp… Just my guesses though (*crosses fingers for a new race and expansion… I would reroll as a Tengu ranger SO fast)

Problem is that a lot of what the community has been asking for and harping about has been beaten to death over the last year. Complaints that most zones are empty aren’t new. Requests for more zones with reason to go there on a frequent bases are no new. Requests for new skills are not new(2 healing skills and 0 weapon skills in 1 year… not what we wanted).

A lot of folks are just tired of waiting. Anet is finally getting around to some of these things, after they kicked off their LS… but the damage is done for many of us and we are tired of waiting.

WvW has been the saving grace for me. Hopefully it lasts.

Evogrin.6027:

Oh haha, wasn’t’ even replying to you, Cesmode :P ..And yeah no trolling intended, I don’t think the tone of my post reflected that, most just surprise that people can find a “who’s excited” thread and think, “boy, how can I reply and show how non-excited I am” :P

I didnt thnk you were replying to me, you were replying to the whole. No worries.

My first response to this thread was that everyone should be cautiously optimistic. My experience with the hype or excitement for Gw2 has always been deflated with false promises or misconceptions. This has happened in this game, for me, more so than any other MMO ive ever played.

I enjoy the game, I enjoy the potential of the game, I enjoy the varity of classes, some of the dungeons and WvW is just boss. But in terms of outlook, I can no longer trust a dev’s word. With all of the ‘should have’ responses and ‘internally discussing’…I dont think I’ll see much change within the next few months before I decide to put the game down for good and move on. I’ve waited a year+ for some of the changes discussed in the CDI, and I’ve seen the changes suggested for the past year over and over. Im tired of waiting, frankly.

For 2014, even though I may not be around for all of it, I hope GW2 returns to its roots and gets people in open world zones, more than just one or two zones. And I am excited for new skills.

Esuna.9746:

Only thing I care about is good looking gear which even after so long…there is a huge lack of…can we get some better armor designs. The leather are horrible and light is pretty bad as well. Only heavy armor has a few decent selections but even then its about less than a handful of ok looking pieces per slot.

Agreed. Medium armor has been horrible for ever. if you are not a female character and you didn’t buy that thieves outfit..(I cant remember the name), then your character looks like a SWTOR smuggler or a hobo on the streets.

The light armor looks equally atrocious, especially for male characters. Females have some unique ‘cuts’ to their gear that make it OK to wear.

Heavy armor has the best looks, hands down

The Lost Witch.7601:

DiogoSilva.7089:

On boring traits and interesting subclasses

I think you are still underestimating the potential of traits. But also perhaps overestimating the potential of skills. This results in a very black/white evaluation of traits.

Let me try to explain:

At the moment we have a bunch of skills. Yet many of them seem to do rather similar things. Unlike a game like GW1, skills in GW2 are more simple.

• We don’t have an energy system. If you take a look at GW1, you can see that there are a LOT of skills that either give energy to you/your teammates or take away energy from opponents. And skills are wildly different to use based on their energy cost.

Interesting. And the thief is the only class with a resource that you speak of. Thieves are not bound to cooldowns on the 1-5 bar. In other games, you work on resources like mana, rage, energy, etc. Why GW2 needed to be different in this regard? Dont know. I always thought having a resource was a good way to keep builds and playstyles in check so you don’t spam your way through your resource…its a bit more strategic.

Example: WoW Arcane mage…
If the arcane mage spammed through arcane blast, he would be out of mana(oom!) in 10 seconds. So, the spec commanded a burn phase where you burn through 35% of your mana, regen phase, coast phase, and then burn again.

In Gw2…we work on cooldowns. And then we have traits to passively reduce the cooldowns vs the arcane mage where you actively manage your resource.

Curious discussion, one that I think warrants some attention. Why the cooldown system vs the tried and true resource?

And resource != charges aka mesmer clones for shattering or Warrior adrenaline.

I applaud the OP and all the other posters for playing this way.

I have tried to do the same, but anytime I try to, any map Im on..I seem to be alone. No random adventurers, no one completing that event to re-take the town.

Feels like a single player game. So how do you do it? Or..do you not mind being alone in these zones?

(serious question though…)

Aeonblade.8709:

Evogrin.6027:

I can’t wait for 2014… Lol @ all who are complaining…. Just leave for another game and stop QQing on our forums?:) …There is a difference between not being happy with the state of the game and trying to voice opinions towards a solution, and just QQing for no reason whatsoever. Its not worth anyone’s time, especially yours. Life is too short, go find something you enjoy, and leave this enjoyable for those who enjoy it? MERRY CHRISTMAS

Please keep the trolling to a minimum, this has been a relatively tame and well thought out post, sans the few usual “this game sucks” people

To which I do not think my banter(sp) with…whomever Im sparring with(I don’t pay attention to names, sorry!) has been aggressive. Just opinions and and opposing views.

Morrigan.2809:

@ Cesmode- people do play in other maps –
I know because I do so most of the time, there are a surprising amount of people just running around and doing events for kicks.

I don’t see it. Ive guested on 7 or 8 servers in the last month(SoS, DB, FA, SBI, Yaks, Ehmery…to name a few). Im lucky if I run into two or 3 players in total on a map. Thats not what I would call a living populated world.

Lexandro.1456:

Who said fun and rewards were not compatible? I find the FGS train fun, and rewarding. I dont find slogging through 30+ ai, and some veterans for a 2 silver and wee bit of xp and karma that fun just because “its a group event”.

And yes you can win WvW by simply zerging everything in sight. Overnight zerg trains are what wins most of the WvW match ups from what Ive seen happen in WvW. 10 men can TRY to take a keep but two peeps on siege weapons can take them out and/or keep them at bay long enough for the zerg to turn up and smash them.

In any case, its still no reason to nerf or destroy content that people are playing, just because you and some others do not like them doing it.

Still not heard a good reason to nerf QD champ train. Convince me otherwise with a well reasoned argument that does not revolve around " I dont like it", or “abuse”.

So…#1 mashing is fun for you? If all the pro- champ train people think alike, then you guys have set a LOW bar for ‘fun’ in video games.

And incorrect again…Coverage is what wins WvW. 24 hour complete map coverage. One champ train cannot be in all spots at all times on all 4 maps. A group of 10 or 12 taking camps and towers, a group of 30 or 40 taking keeps and garrys, 24 hour coverage, on a good amount of the maps. A handful of large blobs can’t do it all. By saying zergs win WvW tells me you don’t play enough. And I think arenanet even said that the more optimal way of playing WvW is not to zerg around but to have multiple groups running and putting swords on different points of the map forcing the other servers to spread their attention. This is what most servers do anyways.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Lexandro.1456:

I don’t get the complaints. People are playing the game as they see fit. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. Why do you want to stop other people playing the game?

As for people being abusive; That’s a separate matter entirely and one that you should report using the in game tools.

They also did when the old CoF runs were there. Same as all other repetitive money-making schemes.

People were playing as they saw fit, but they changed things anyways.

Why? Because sitting in the same spot repeating the same thing over and over should never be more rewarding than doing different things in different places.
Why? Because otherwise, people stick o one spot, the rest of the world gets empty, and those wanting to do different things have a much, much harder time.

That’s why champions need flags like anything else with a guaranteed reward.
Those who kill 50 champions still get their rewards, but they would need to kill 50 different ones instead the same 5 10 times.
Those who want to go in a train still can do that, but they just have to organize themselves a bit better.

But in exchange, those who want to kill a champion in other maps will be more likely to find help.

This. I couldn’t put my thoughts into words like this for some reason. This is why the champ train must go, or at least the easy peasy route of it all.

Or simple: randomize spawn timers. Why are they on set timers? Arenanet couldn’t see this coming that we would farm them in sequence once they improved their loot a little? This was not forseen by the developer? Or whats worse is that it was forseen and intended. Which means they prefer mindless #1 mashing over skill and strategic play. I’ll dump this quote here “Hey, I swung a sword, I swung a sword…hey I swung a sword again”. Thats all you do in the QD champ train. Dont need to use any other abilities. Just auto attack.

This type of behavior should not be as rewarding as a group of 3 or 3 people completing a DE in Fireheart rise where they need to work together a bit more, and utilize some more skills.

sonicwhip.9052:

I’m actually going to find it very difficult to log back in once Everquest Next is fully released. Even Landmark itself looks like it will be very fun.

I agree. And its funny, that I participate in these discussions and in the CDI discussions as much as I do because I probably won’t be around for the day that Arenanet finally implements some of the suggestions and changes. I doubt that many of the LS changes that they might be talking about, or the verticle progression/horizontal progression changes that we are currently discussing will be in the game within the next 3 or so months.

A lot of the suggestions in the CDI have been asked for time and time again over the last year, and just because theres an official CDI thread NOW they perceive our suggestions and NOW they say they will have an internal discussion? I have about 3 months of vigor left in me for GW2. That time table is determined by the lack of vision with the community and bestowing their own vision upon us for the last year, and with the fact that TESO is coming in April, Wildstar not too long after that…and probably late late 2014 or early 2015, EQN.

Too much potential being injected into the MMO genre to ignore. GW2 had a year to kick butt and take names. Instead, they have made controversial additions like ascended gear and living story. While some like it others dont. Community is split 50/50 Id say, which is not good for a game.

TheDaiBish.9735:

cesmode.4257:

I mocked the pet battles pre-MoP as well..until I tried them and they are really cool! Think Final Fantasy 7…you sit there with your pets that have unique little abilities and you battle other pets in the world, or other people’s pets..and you level them up. Just something fun to do on the side. Infact, this is going to go into the horizontal progression CDI thread.

Also, yes Fratured! was a good update IMO. A a healthy addition of fractals and a revamp to the fractal system. Tequatl, agreed for better or worse…depends what server youre on. My server kills him nightly I found out. But mostly, he sits there un-engaged. Maybe they went a bit too far with him.

But notice, you pointed out updates that had signifiance substance and significance combat. And notice, that these two updates were not tied to(or if they were, VERY loosely) to scarlet and the LS updates and story line.

The one thing I can pick out of the LS that was truely good was the gauntlet. Those fights were boss.

There were pet battles in FF7? I cannot for the life of me remember them.

I forgot about the Gauntlet. I didn’t actually complete that.

As for Tequatl (and for all world bosses, for that matter) I feel they could be vastly improved in the short term simply by:

• creating scaling unique to each boss, that is tied to their mechanics. For example, the Shatterer’s healing crystals, or the Underworld Portals on Shadow Behemoth.
• Making some of the mechanics appear in random places, instead of set places. See above examples.

That way, the mechanics can’t be ignored by most players, it would help cut down on the zerging part, and the best part is you wouldn’t need a high amount of players, but the need for teamwork and organisation would remain as it scales up (which was the original intention of scaling?).

No, I meant the style of the pet battles are the same as the combat system in ff7…
:p

Lexandro.1456:

The entire game is essentially “zerg” content, why should QD be any different?

WvW – zerg stacking
PvE events – zerg stacking
Dungeons – stacking (mini-zerg)

Events failing in other zones is not because of champ farming. Its because many of those events are time consuming with little to no reward, or have broken content. I for instance cant stand Char characters, and so I dont do Ascalon stuffs because I dont want to. Added to this though is that the XP curve is horribad for leveling through normal roaming, and many players like myself have multiple characters. Going through content that you find boring multiple times just for XP is just as bad as doing champ farms non stop for mats if that bores you.

GW2 has been known for zergs for months now. Its not going to change any time soon, particularly when devs keep adding zerg content.

I disagree. You cannot win WvW by simply zerging. A group of 10 players can take a tower. While a zerg focuses on garry. The group of 10 isnt a zerg. 5 man dungeons, stacking is not a zerg. Queensdale champ train , FSG champ train, and 30+ man blobs in WvW are zergs.

I am curious then, why people do run the champ train. Do they find the fights interesting? Or challenging? Or are they just doing it for rewards? If for just rewards, to what end? Ascended gear? To what end? Do you do high level fractals?

So basically, people run these champ trains for resource and coin gain, not because they are FUN. Am i right? So is the game another job for you? What happened to playing a video game for fun?

Adding to my previous post..

Let me ask the pro-zerg pro champ train camp:

What is one thing all MMOs have in common:(Theres more than one answer, but Im looking for one specifically).

Correct answer that Im looking for: Non level-cap zones are empty, dead, abandoned by both players and developers. GW2, many thought, would be the end of that phenomena. Players playing in multitude of zones because it was enjoyable and profitable at the same time.

Instead, queensdale zerg and LS updates fosters the zerg mentality to clump us together in one or two zones.

Gw2 could be the unique MMO where more than a small handful of zones have people in them. It could be the MMO that stands out where you can say “Well, there are max level characters completing events in a lvl 40 zone” whereas the WoW players and the other MMO games cannot say the same.

Lexandro.1456:

Again why kill the champ train specifically? Ive yet to see a clear reason for doing so other than people don’t like it. As I said people being abusive is a separate issue not specific to champ trains.

What issues specific to champ farming are there that warrants a nerf?

This isn’t answering your question, but why introduce ascended gear? What issue specific to exotic gear that warranted ascended gear?

Same sorts of questions can be applied to many of the decisions arenanet makes.

Specifically to the champ trains: Ive added my two cents as to why. Break apart the mindless zerging and have people go out into the game and play in other zones. There are something like 10 zones and 8 of them are abandoned other than people leveling up and map completing. Reduce the reason for zerging, and encourage people to play together in groups, not zergs.

Why you ask? Because Im sick of seeing failed events in awsome zones like Fireheart rise, or Iron marches. Then I zone into Queensdale, and see 50 level 80s blob to little puny champs for some karma and dust.

Im speaking to the overall health and longevity of the game here. If the pro-champ train, pro-open world zerg camp is Ok with guild wars 2 being known for zergs in open world, rather than completing events with groups of people(group != zerg), then I’ll see you guys at the next major MMO launch

Donari.5237:

Cesmode, that’s what this polymock is that everyone speaks of. Apparently GW1 had it? So everyone keeps hoping their minis one day will battle in the polymock arenas.

Oh, then I am for the polymock!

My name is cesmode, and I approve of polymock.

Lexandro.1456:

Want and need are separate things. You don’t need BiS gear, you just want it. And its entirely irrelevant to the discussion which is the champ trains. If people want to group up and roll around the map taking out “boss” creatures that’s none of your concern. If however they are abusive towards others then they should be reported for doing so.

Everything else is a rather pointless attempt at nerfing champs by players who somehow feel aggrieved that others are “having fun” by farming. And yes I sometimes join champ trains for mats and gear.

I was simply extending your argument of “well if people want to play that way, who are you to say otherwise”. I wanted to play one way, but cant anymore. Gotta grind up first.

True, want and need are different. People want to run champ trains, but don’t need to. So by this, I vote that arenanet kill the champ train some how. They can acquire karma and whatnot from any other area of the game…maybe spread out into other zones so we see more people in more zones.

Hi,
One horizontal progression system I would like to offer up…and don’t laugh…

Pet battles.

Blizzard introduced this with Mists of Panderia and I quickly dismissed this as fluff and stuff that we did not want or ask for… but after trying it, it is freakishly fun! Think Final Fantasy 7 (camera angle and all…even the music was final fantasy-esq), with you standing beside your pets(choose 3 of them), and you battle other peoples pets, or pets (such as ambient creatures like a rabbit) in the world. Each creature and pet has its own set of abilities, and level. You level up your pets, etc. Its a fun, side system to do when you have free time and nothing else to do.

It sounds pokemon, or fluff, but with the theme of horizontal progression…its a nice side game to play.

I do think it would need a queue or be added to the LFG tool some how so you can meet up with players and battle with them.

Just imagine your Queen Jenna fighting a mini Toxic Krait.

I bet the craze for mini pets skyrockets.

TheDaiBish.9735:

cesmode.4257:

Well, and this is something they blizzard addressed with MoP, if you werent a raider or heavy into PvP…there wasnt much for you to do at max level. You either raided or did BGs/Arenas, or…what? Nothing? Blizzard was complacent for years because they were top dog. After more competition like GW2 entered the market, they had to re-invent themselves a bit and introduced pet battles, scenarios, challenge modes, timeless isle(loot isle), etc…a whole slew of things for the casual non raider to do at max level aside from rep grinding and raids/pvp. IMO, it was an expansion too late.

Next expansion, they are going further away from just raids to a quasi player housing type of deal where you can upgrade an garrison and defend it against NPCs in open world I guess. Again, just something else for the non raider to do in open world. But, this is something significant, much like traditional updates containing PERMA dungeons, raids, new zones, etc.

True, tixx might require some combat, but its one map correct? Kind of a quick run too? The rest of the update is fluff and for fun. Jumping puzzle, snowball fights, presents with psychotic toys(ok more combat but these toys have no significance). Its a fun update, I dabble with it every few days. Its like dessert vs the prime rib meal. Everyone likes dessert, too much can make you sick. I rather have prime rib.

Another example of a game that is going to build off of systems that aren’t fluff…Wildstar. Launching with the run of the mill dungeons and raids of a traditional sub game. Warplots(a group oriented PvP type of thing which is different some how from battlegrounds), player housing(and you need to defend your house too), adventures, path missions..launching with that stuff. While I like the idea of “go forge your own adventure” that gw2 tried to foster, it just doesn’t stick when everything is centered around the bread crumb LS updates. They focus their dev on this stuff, while other games focus their dev on adding more gaming modes which eventually promote more crap to do. And subtantial crap…not a snow ball fight, or ‘click F and burn the effigy’.

I haven’t actually done Tixx yet (work and all that).

Like I said, I left during Cata, so I haven’t really been keeping up on it (although I did know about the pokemon minigame they put in). I also haven’t really been keeping up with WS.

On the other side of the LS updates, I don’t think they’re all that bad, or at least certain aspects of them. There are definitely lessons to be learn, or trends to continue, at the very least:

• Fractured added to Fractals and the Instabilities, while the TA path added a new dungeon. Another small note, the dungeons (for the most part) that have come with some of the patches were a definite improvement over most of the launch ones.
• For better or for worse, Tequatl was an improvement over what it was before (imo, old content shouldn’t be left flawed for the sake of adding new content).
• Things to add to our home instance.
• The Lessons from the Sky achievement where you had to hunt down them crystals. Some of them were placed where you thought the route was obvious, but then it turns out you needed to go somewhere else. I think that was a massive improvement, going from ‘click 150 of these which you don’t have to hunt for / reset daily so you can just park the same area’ to ‘find 22 of these, hidden around the place’. I think this is definitely something they should learn from and apply somewhere.

I mocked the pet battles pre-MoP as well..until I tried them and they are really cool! Think Final Fantasy 7…you sit there with your pets that have unique little abilities and you battle other pets in the world, or other people’s pets..and you level them up. Just something fun to do on the side. Infact, this is going to go into the horizontal progression CDI thread.

Also, yes Fratured! was a good update IMO. A a healthy addition of fractals and a revamp to the fractal system. Tequatl, agreed for better or worse…depends what server youre on. My server kills him nightly I found out. But mostly, he sits there un-engaged. Maybe they went a bit too far with him.

But notice, you pointed out updates that had signifiance substance and significance combat. And notice, that these two updates were not tied to(or if they were, VERY loosely) to scarlet and the LS updates and story line.

The one thing I can pick out of the LS that was truely good was the gauntlet. Those fights were boss.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

cesmode.4257:

reforging.

-snip-

I think Blizzard is removing this mechanic from the game, or already has, since they have a better system in place. But this wasn’t a terribly bad system either. It gave you a bit more flexibility on gear.

what’s the system in place? Didn’t they remove it because the game had a too high emphasis on stats? Personally I don’t want GW2 to become all about statistics (when you don’t feel small changes in gameplay). Here a quote from Blizzard:

Reforging was supposed to be something that let players customize their gear to change their playstyle a little bit. It ended up just being extra work (and math) that had to be done if you wanted the most optimal gear.

If GW2 could adapt something from WoW, I’d say it’s their new ideas about stats:
Stats where you feel the difference in combat.
-) movement speed (on boots)
-) cleave (increased aoe damage; on weapons)
-) sturdiness (no durability loss)

I can’t remember what the new one is..I think they removed it because a lot of the gear that you can get now, you can modify the stats when you get it or something? I could be totally wrong. My buddy who still raids in WoW mentioned that they are doing away with reforging.

Going along with what you said..about feeling a difference in combat. Agreed.

And I mentioned this in this thread or some other one this morning, that the support guardian that is participating in the Dwayna fight…does he FEEL like he is supporting the people around him? Does he see and feel their health bars going up when he heals, or that the protection and stability buffs he provided are making a true difference? Other than ele water fields, where you see your HP jump up 1/3 or a half, I dont see a ton of impact from a support guardian, or support engi or whatever…they are probably definately helping, but you just dont see it.

How can we weave this into horizontal progression, where you see these things actually helping your teammates and those around you?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Against my better judgement, I pray for an expansion.

There will probably be a CDI on this in a few months, which will take a few weeks and then a few months of internal discussions..and when all is said and done, we’ll be in Q3 2014 before they consider it.

Dont hold your breathe

Lexandro.1456:

I don’t get the complaints. People are playing the game as they see fit. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. Why do you want to stop other people playing the game?

As for people being abusive; That’s a separate matter entirely and one that you should report using the in game tools.

This is the typical argument in this forum. “If you dont like it dont do it”. “Not everyone thinks like that”. “Not everyone finds that fun”. How come GW2 is the only game where people have this democratic mindset that everyone should enjoy the game the way they want to, and all is well, etc…. Well, if this is indeed the mindest of the masses, then I ask the following…

The way I wanted to play the game was quickly get BiS gear and then do whatever I wanted…open world, wvw, map completion, dungeons, jumping puzzles, etc. With ascended gear now in the game, I no longer have BiS gear. How come I am forced to grind this stuff out now, instead of playing the game that I want to? Part of the way I wanted to play the game was to have BiS gear AND THEN do whatever I wanted in game. I had BiS gear and now I don’t. Now, in order to play the way I WANT TO, I have to grind and farm out ascended gear.

So tell me, how come I cannot play the game I want to play?

EDIT: If you are going to jump on me and say “noone is forcing you to get ascended gear”…re-read what I wrote please. The way I wanted to play the game was to get BiS gear(which I had until ascended gear introduced), and then enjoy the rest of the game. It is how I wanted to enjoy the game, because..you know, we were told “play the game how you want to play it”? Well, I was. BiS gear and then enjoying all. Now, I don’t have BiS gear, and have stopped enjoying the game to farm out the NEW BiS gear…see where it changed?

Highlander.9860:

Have to say why are the people complaining…the ones who do seem to think they are the ones who should go to queensdale and who should not …I ask how does it impact on you the ones who go there . I joined the train yesterday and there were 4 new guys not alts new ones who were praising the train.

So its server problem I think as on the train we arrived to see Oak dead so what , no drama everyone just mapped onto the next.
I seem to think and its a personal opinion that complainers are just using the new ones to the game who join gw2 as an excuse to satisfy there agenda nothing else.

Content like queensdale champ trains, and LS zergs in one zone take people away from other parts of the game like the other dozen or so zones with tons of dynamic events and gorgeous content, WvW, dungeon crawling, etc.

The champ trains aren’t profitable from a coin prespective, just a good eay way to get karma. But combined with LS updates/zergs, it really takes people away from other parts of the game. This is something I do not approve and why I would like to see these trains go.

TheDaiBish.9735:

cesmode.4257:

You may be correct.

But think about how much you are seeing and doing with a traditional patch vs the 2 week breadcrumb LS updates. In most of the LS updates, we are funneled into one zone, and one corner of a zone ,or half of a map, zerging around killing champs and grinding out achievements. You see more and do more than blobbing around in other traditional content games.

I just see that traditional content updates offer far more than what we have been getting in the 2 week updates. Example: If you aren’t into winters day, and if wintersday was the only content added with the last update, then theres absolutely nothing new for you. Vs a traditional content game where the majority of the content added involves combat, which is the biggest reason we play these games…combat.

Eh, good point (although doesn’t Tixx’s involve combat?). Although I’d also say that’s a plus with the (usual) 2 week updates. If that patch doesn’t appeal to you, there’s a much shorter wait until the next patch vs the traditional patches, where you could be waiting months (or a year in the case of Ruby Sanctum to Mists).

Although, as you said, it’s dependent on the person. The reason I left during Cata (although this might have changed) was mostly because the only content I had out of the patches was dailies, and maybe the occasional dungeon if I had a night off (which wasn’t too often). I didn’t feel that the £9 for, what, 12 ‘different’ repeatable quests and a rep grind was worth it.

Well, and this is something they blizzard addressed with MoP, if you werent a raider or heavy into PvP…there wasnt much for you to do at max level. You either raided or did BGs/Arenas, or…what? Nothing? Blizzard was complacent for years because they were top dog. After more competition like GW2 entered the market, they had to re-invent themselves a bit and introduced pet battles, scenarios, challenge modes, timeless isle(loot isle), etc…a whole slew of things for the casual non raider to do at max level aside from rep grinding and raids/pvp. IMO, it was an expansion too late.

Next expansion, they are going further away from just raids to a quasi player housing type of deal where you can upgrade an garrison and defend it against NPCs in open world I guess. Again, just something else for the non raider to do in open world. But, this is something significant, much like traditional updates containing PERMA dungeons, raids, new zones, etc.

True, tixx might require some combat, but its one map correct? Kind of a quick run too? The rest of the update is fluff and for fun. Jumping puzzle, snowball fights, presents with psychotic toys(ok more combat but these toys have no significance). Its a fun update, I dabble with it every few days. Its like dessert vs the prime rib meal. Everyone likes dessert, too much can make you sick. I rather have prime rib.

Another example of a game that is going to build off of systems that aren’t fluff…Wildstar. Launching with the run of the mill dungeons and raids of a traditional sub game. Warplots(a group oriented PvP type of thing which is different some how from battlegrounds), player housing(and you need to defend your house too), adventures, path missions..launching with that stuff. While I like the idea of “go forge your own adventure” that gw2 tried to foster, it just doesn’t stick when everything is centered around the bread crumb LS updates. They focus their dev on this stuff, while other games focus their dev on adding more gaming modes which eventually promote more crap to do. And subtantial crap…not a snow ball fight, or ‘click F and burn the effigy’.

While Id like to see champ trains dead..at least in non lvl 80 zones, I am not sure what arenanet can do.

The core of their game is open world content and playing with other people regardless if they are in your party or not. Even down to the skills you use impact those around you.

So when the engine of your game is cornerstoned around open world content, and you have a lot of people doing out, how can you break up the trains, how can you make the champ fights or boss fights interesting and difficult enough where you aren’t just mashing one button…how can you make the fights so that the support guardian or support ele actually FEELS like he/she is contributing to the overall health and success of the group? How do you see the fruits of your labor as a support char? Because if you dont see it, might as well go zerk like everyone else.

So how do they break it all up, promite build diversity in open world content, and make it so that 20-50 people can participate in a non mindless non #1 mashing fashion?

DiogoSilva.7089:

TriggerSad.2597:

Shockwave.1230:

Lord Kuru.3685:

For those who want new skills/weapons — that works in the short term to keep the game fresh, but it’s not sustainable. If you keep adding skills, balance becomes a nightmare (Anet’s already having a terrible time of it right now).

How do you propose they Anet deals with this?

They did it with Gw1, and are probably better at now

No they did not. Balance in Guild Wars a complete nightmare! Skills that needed buffs were ignored for a long time, and builds that desperately needed to be nerfed were around even longer. The biggest issue was the fact that although we had access to hundreds of thousands of different builds, only a small handful was used by the player-base because it otherwise wouldn’t have been playable.

And how is it any different in GW2? Mindless, auto-attacking zerker builds that desperately need to be nerfed and weren’t yet? Plenty of skills, stats, traits and weapon sets that are ignored for the optimal DPS one? Only a small handful of builds playable?

With the way PvE’s design currently is, with the overload of passive effect systems (runes + traits + sigils, and someday in the future, infusions), with the lack of mechanisms to make support or control builds any better or more enjoyable, and with the lack of mechanisms to prevent spam, GW2 is a balancing nightmare too.

One year after the game is out, and pvp’s balance is actually at a worse state than it was half a year before, and every single time Anet tries to buff underpowered options, more spams comes into the game. Aoe spam, auto-attack spam, condition spam, boon spam, passive proc spam, AI spam, particle effects spam, etc.

And let’s not talk about skills like Ride the Lightning or Mist Form, which were made to be more less enjoyable for the sake of balance, because there was no other way to nerf them (for example, no energy system) other than outright stripping enjoyable functionalities out of them.

GW2 is pretty much a balancing nightmare too.

Without touching on the sPvP portion…

I am dumbfounded why GS warriors, specifically hundred blades, has not been looked at…heavy armor that can spit out 15-18k in two seconds or so, and repeat it a few seconds later? Every ability on the greatsword does respectable damage with one of them being insane.

Elementalists, recently, might have gotten a damage increase but their survivability still sucks. I’ve leveled a Thief, warrior, mesmer, guardian, necro… I never had the survivability problems with any of those like I am with the ele. I die every few minutes, regardless what build Im running. It is a very gear dependent class, and leveling up just doesn’t give you the gear you need.

I agree, balance is a problem in the game… especially build balance and diversity. You can do all content with zerker. And when arenanet encourages people to zerg around via open world LS updates and content, theres no need to deviate from zerker. Even in dungeons, the vast majority of it you can do in zerker.

However, I dont think this line of thought belongs in this thread. Its more of a balance thing than horizontal progression.

Or, to stir the pot…how can horizontal progression attempt to fix some of the balance issues or build diversity issues the game has?