Guild Wars 2

Gaudrath.6725:

Has it occurred to anyone that AoE is actually too dominant in this game? That virtually every class is full of AoE skills?

And that maybe the devs would like combat to look less like carpet bombing?
Dunno. If they nerf AoE but buff single target damage or survivability where needed, it could actually be a good thing.

Yes, let’s nerf AoE. Surely that will help reduce zerging in World vs World.

The devs can’t nerf AoE as a general rule and reduce zerging, since one of the core tactics against large zergs (besides another large zerg) is AoE damage.

TheDaiBish.9735:

A lot of the arguments are “well, x boss in y dungeon does z, which makes it harder.”

However, remember the devs will be balancing fights around the fact that you can’t waypoint zerg anymore. Given their statement that they’ll be nerfing, and then reviewing, increasing difficulty as necessary (phase 2), makes it sound like they’ll be slightly under-tuning fights at first and gradually building up.

This means reviewing 1HKO, and ridiculous AoE spam, surely?

One of the most recent 1HKO mechanics introduced in a dungeon? Jade Maw, from the Fractals.

They clearly don’t think 1HKOs are as big of a problem as their players do.

And the devs specifically stated that waypoint zerging was never an intended function of dungeons….meaning that they balanced encounters without taking the zerg effect into account. So they thought the game’s encounters were fine before this. That doesn’t fill me with much confidence.

No-one dies straight away. The only way someone will get Defeated straight away is if they get Downed 5 times in one minute. After a minute, one point goes away.

So, for example, you get Downed 3 times (50% health), but don’t get Downed for another minute, the Downed health then goes up to 75%.

Coinciding with point one, because the fight mechanics are going to be balanced around not way-point zerging, this could potentially mean reviving allies will become easier.

After the fight then, you just wait for the DP to wear off.

These mechanics don’t come into play with a waypoint zerg, anyways. You’d be resurrected with max Death Penalty, and would need to last at least one minute before a single notch vanishes. If they’re surviving that long, it’s not that much of a “waypoint zerg”, it’s more of a party reorganization.

Both of these points are a case of ‘wait and see’.

If it was just a case of ‘well, you can’t res at way-point anymore’, I’d be agreeing with the lot of you.

But the system has the potential to be a lot more lenient than a lot of people realise (depending on how they balance encounter mechanics).

It also has the potential to be far, far worse than it is right now.

Given how the best of intentions from the devs thus far have not always led to sufficiently positive results, I think it’s natural that this idea is going to get people VERY jumpy when they’ve said nothing about how they intend to revamp dungeons.

Nothing wrong with pointing out that there’s clearly a better model out there than just saying “no waypoint zergs at all”, and if older games can come up with ways to escape this problem, then there’s no reason this game can’t.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Let’s put it this way:

You got an exam.

No matter how badly you do in that exam, you’ll still pass anyway. How is that a good test of your knowledge?

It’s the same with dungeons: They’re a test of skill. If you can just keep running to your death and still get your reward (“passing the test”), how is that good design.

Your analogy doesn’t really fly because there’s no guarantee that the waypoint zerg will always beat the boss, as it only works so long as one target remains alive until the others can reach the boss room again (which is harder than it sounds at times). I honestly don’t think that’s a problem.

I do, however, think that telling players they cannot self-rez in a dungeon while their party fights for its life is a bad idea. It’s punishing players a bit too much for dying. It means your party is that much more likely to wipe. It means having to make a decision between fighting the boss with only four or severely cutting your group DPS to help your lost teammate up (all while hoping that the boss doesn’t go for you as you try to rez your teammate). And most of all, it means frustration will set in much sooner in most general PUGs, leading to the dungeon run being abandoned.

People claim this is all about “skill” but it really boils down to playability, and the proposed model decreases the playability of the dungeons, especially when there are so many ways to be OHKOed in dungeons. You may argue that zerg rushes from the waypoint are bad design, and that’s fair enough. But rendering 10 minutes of a party’s effort worthless because of one guy getting spiked at the wrong time thus leading to total party collapse….that’s hardly good design, either.

It’s okay to try and negotiate some middle ground here, and it’s already a mechanic that other games have done before: just set a hard cap on the time between resurrections, starting out low (say, 5-10 seconds) and steadily increasing if you die within X amount of time of your last waypoint rez. Poof, the waypoint zerg is basically DEAD, unless that solo party member left alive out of the five is awfully kitten good at avoiding death for a long period of time….and really, shouldn’t the idea be to REWARD that kind of success, rather than punish it?

Reposting from another thread due to mod lock.

Distaste.4801:

Just like their are single target skills that do absurd damage, the same goes for AOE. Both need nerfed and who is to say the single target ones are getting nerfed as well. Why should some AOE skills literally do more damage than a single target melee attacks? The answer is they shouldn’t thus the nerf.

Now I believe the AOE target limit is a bad solution. The correct solution would be what WoW implemented. The AOE has a total damage it can do to a number of targets, if there are more enemies in the AOE then the total damage gets averaged out over the the number of enemies. So a 1k AOE to 5 players becomes 500 to 10. Or perhaps the WAR route is better where everyone in the AOE gets effected BUT you cannot stack AOE’s. Or another route is just reducing the damage to each player hit past 5. Anything is better than the current 5 limit but we definitely don’t want 100% damage to everyone because then WvW will become all AOE classes, yes far worse than even now. Warhammer proved what unlimited AOE does to RvR, we don’t want to repeat that here.

IMO the way to balance AOE is to reduce their damage so they don’t hit harder than single target damage, but allow them to hit more than 5 people at further reduced damage.

The inherent problem with this is that it doesn’t discourage zerging in WvW, as the devs have said they want to do.

If anything, your suggestion actually encourages people to zerg even more than ever, to completely neuter the effects of any AoE attacks. If that small zerg of ten grows to 50, you just cut each person’s personal damage to 20% of the original figure….AoE builds would be completely destroyed with just that one patch.

Such a method may have worked for WoW but it would be useless in GW2, effectively rendering any AoE builds pointless in the long run since you’d barely be scratching your foes at all.

Blanket nerfs do not work. The number of AoE builds in the game that are actually legitimately overpowered can be counted on one hand (D/D ele comes to mind, and…really that’s about it) and yet we’re pitching the idea to nerf ALL forms of AoE. That’s a terrible strategy that will make people leave this game in droves out of utter frustration at having their long-existing and balanced strategies obliterated because of an overreaction to the “power” of AoE.

You point out that an AoE attack should not out-damage a single target attack. Yet I’d point out that you’re also suggesting nerfing all AoE to the point where, when fighting 1v1, your damage as an AoE player is instantly halved if just one more player comes along and starts fighting you too. And if it becomes 3 players against you, you’re dealing 33% damage now. How can you possibly be expected to survive? Eventually it’ll reach a point where the enemy is out-healing your damage, and then you’re absolutely doomed. And it wouldn’t take many players to hit that point, either.

You’d be forcing players to switch to single-target builds, especially in WvW where zergs are in the dozens of players and thus would easily out-heal any AoE thrown against them. Can you explain how that possibly makes AoE equally as powerful as a single-target hit?

AoE has to deal more damage than a single-target attack because if it deals the exact same amount as a single-target attack (or even worse, less than single-target attacks), you risk the enemy out-healing the damage you deal, making your ability to hit multiple targets entirely worthless.

Er, wat. No one is “gaming the system” with AoE. It’s simply the most effective way to battle in WvW where you’re being rushed by zergs of enemies.

Does ANet seriously expect their WvW players to each focus on single target 1v1 damage when combating in groups of 20 or more, where AoE is clearly the most effective tactic? Who in the world thought that nerfing ALL AoE in every profession everywhere would be a good idea? If anything it will only further cripple some of the already lackluster professions in the game and ruin some of the best non-broken combos there are, while leaving the clearly broken single-target spikes of multiple classes completely intact. ._.

Mungrul.9358:

@critickitten:
They used “Star” voice actors that have a huge presence in a high percentage of games releases over the past few years. People like Nolan North, Steve Blum and Jennifer Hale.
If they were being sensible, they would have gone for cheaper voice actors, resulting in more being available and also a lot of voices not made contemptuous by over-familiarity.

They could also have hired English actors instead of North Americans doing bad English accents for the Sylvari. I’ve heard us Brits are ridiculously cheap to hire when compared to American voice talent.

Oh, good, so instead of just most of the voice acting being bad, we could’ve had all of the voice acting be bad instead but done it for cheap!

Sounds like quite an improvement! :p

Steve Blum’s VAing in this game makes him essentially a god among insects, and the other major VAs do a respectable job as well. The bad VAing tends to come not from the high-paid ones, but from the amateurs they hired to do the generic voices. I can’t imagine having the entire game full of those mediocre-at-best voice actors, I might have pulled my hair out.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to quickly clarify to set expectations, nothing in the blog post, nor nothing we’ve said anywhere has said you will be able to buy precursor items directly for crowns, this is not the case. We’ve simply said we’ll try and find some other places to add a chance to get them to the game until we’ve implemented the eventual precursor scavenger hunt.

I think I’ll take my victory lap now.

There were people dismissing my argument a few days ago that Colin’s original post merely implied that more RNG-based drops of precursors would be added to the game and that the new rewards system would likely have little-to-nothing to do with precursors. I warned them not to get their hopes up, and the hopes of other forum posters. But no, these folks insisted that the new rewards system would provide a way to get precursors and so I should stop whining about how the scavenger hunt has been pushed back to April at the earliest.

Time to stand up and take a bow, folks. I didn’t forget about you. Don’t you worry, I kept the quotes just in case this situation came to pass just so I could remind you who made the correct prediction.

First, me:

Yes, I read it. But it seems you have a very interesting definition of “clear cut”.

That statement says absolutely nothing about how this will fix the problem of precursors being subject to the whims of the RNG, all it says is that there will be “new ways” to obtain them. All that really implies is that they will be adding precursors as possible drops to more locations in the game….but if they’re still absurdly rare drops, then you didn’t really fix the problem.

Legendaries should not boil down to RNG or TP, that doesn’t guarantee that the very best players get them. There’s no reason that they can’t introduce a system that relies on skill….and the only proposed solution that would at least take steps to move us towards such a system is not in active development.

So yes, I am getting a little bit worried to say the least. I’m glad they’re looking into it, but given the exact words he said, I’m not confident that we’re going to see anything more than just extra drop locations. I think you’re hyping yourself up for something that probably won’t happen.

Second, a pair of posters who dismissed my argument as total bunk:

You said you don’t see how the new system will " fix the problem of precursors depending heavily on terrible loot tables." I think it’s safe to say that when a dev says they are working on a new reward system that will grant precursors, they mean that there will be a new way to obtain them that does not rely on you killing monsters until it drops. That is what “new reward system” tends to imply, that it will be different from the current method of obtaining them. But if you want to keep assuming it’s not going to change anything at all and when they say “new reward system” they actually mean “we’re just going to buff a few loot tables and call it a day” then I guess that works too.
~Ehra.5240

I personally can’t see how you’d see:

• New reward system
• Rewarding across all parts of the game (read in my eyes as PvE, WvW, SPvP)
• New ways to earn precursors

As more RNG, when the only way to create precursors at the moment is through RNG.

A reward system, in my eyes, is a definite. You do something, you get rewarded for it. Maybe in the case of the precursors, you have to build up your rewards.
~TheDaiBish.9735

Huh, what do you know? I was right. Again. Guess I’m not quite as stupid as I look. Might come from the fact that I’ve had some experience in the MMO world. Maybe they should try having a more open mind next time, so that embarrassing things like this don’t happen to them.

Also, maybe try to obtain a more healthy degree of realism rather than interpreting a dev’s forum posts incorrectly and then refusing to acknowledge that another interpretation that doesn’t match yours could possibly be correct?

Anchorwind.9016:

1) Would you prefer ascended gear to be the last tier implemented for the remainder of GW2?
2) Would you prefer ascended gear to be equal to exotic gear in all statistics except agony resistance?
3) Would you prefer the level cap to remain at 80 for the remainder of GW2?
4) Would you prefer if WvW was set up on an equal playing field similar to PvP?
5) Would you prefer if WvW / PvP / PvE had separate skill functionalities?
6) Would you prefer if Magic Find was removed from the game completely?
7) Would you prefer if Magic Find was divided equally amongst all party members?
8) Is GW2 too ‘Grindy?’
9) Does GW2 need less RNG?
10) Has the Trading Post [and all its users/farmers] positively impacted the economy?
11) Do you have as much faith [and/or enthusiasm] about the game [and/or company] as you did before launch?
12) Do you reasonably expect [many of] your primary concerns to be addressed in early 2013?

1) Yes.
2) I would prefer that Ascended gear die in eternal flame, but as that’s not an option, I’d prefer a change from the existing system and this idea is better than the present model, so yes.
3) Yes. There’s no reason to change it as the level curve is fantastic right now as is.
4) Yes.
5) Yes. Balance PvP elements, including WvW, separately from PvE as you did in GW1.
6) No.
7) Yes, and am frankly amazed that it doesn’t already work like this.
8) Considering it was advertised as a “no grind game” and its devs continue to insist that their end goal is “zero grind”, the only correct answer here is yes.
9) No, not really. It needs higher drop rates, but the wrath of the RNG drop system is virtually inescapable, and the only real way to avoid it is a very bland token system that would kill a lot of core mechanics that have been fine in most other RPGs.
10) Yes. It’s an improvement from Spamadan, even if it’s not perfect.
11) No, not at all. Between the treatment of players on the forums and the continued movement towards vertical progression, I’m growing increasingly worried that I was sold one game and given another.
12) No, as I’ve already been told that many things like Legendaries will barely be addressed if at all until at least April. I have high hopes for some of the improvements to come, mind. But this is ANet’s chance to redeem the game in many people’s eyes, and while they’re improving, they’re still much too far from where they need to be.

Mungrul.9358:

But there’s signs of this kind of laziness throughout the game, such as all classes in a race sharing the same voice actor, lack of unique situational animations for cutscenes and other related scripted events, unfinished emotes, dance animations being restricted to race where they were divided by sex and class in the first game, etcetera, etcetera.

Er, so you think it’s “laziness” that they paid for 10 different voice actors (2 per race) instead of 80 (2 genders * 5 races * 8 profs)? No, I’m pretty sure they did it for financial reasons, and I think it’s ridiculous to hold that against them.

There are areas of the game that stink of rushed development, certainly. Legendaries come to mind rather instantly, as do many late-game areas and explorable dungeons. The hair problems this game has are on that list, too.

But it’s not “laziness” to try and cut down on your game’s costs. Especially considering that a particularly recent MMO that spent 9 figures on its game ended up hemorrhaging players within mere months and reverting to F2P soon after. Why would you pay exorbitant amounts of money to make any MMO knowing that most of your players will leave within the initial few months?

I don’t get people’s hatred for tokens, as this is a carryover model from GW1. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reward_trophy

GW1 had WAY more token systems than GW2, and it hardly “killed the game” or anything. In fact it was generally far more rewarding as a game because there were many different ways to acquire the stuff you wanted or needed, and if you didn’t want a particular currency cluttering your inventory any more, you could trade it in for something of value and sell it to the highest bidder, so at least you made money on it.

So I’m just fine with more token systems. However, my agreement to this has a price! :p

I want a currency tab in the collectibles panel to store a stack of each token currency in the game. I don’t mind if it only stacks to 250, either. Just having ONE 250 stack in the collectibles window would clean out my inventory considerably and likely help many other peoples’ as well. Pleeeeease, Colin? <3

HawkMeister.4758:

Azure Prower.8701:

Considering how most items require more than one stack. It’s a drop in a bucket.

Oh Cheezus yes.
The frikken “8bit” stacks!
I´d actually pay money to get “16 bit” stacks of 65k+.

How´s that for monetization, ANet?

Ah, but with this model, you already do.

The idea behind having stacks set at 250 and then forcing players to stash more than 250 of certain items is to encourage them to buy more bank slots. It’s the same tactic they used in GW1 to great effect when trying to get people to stash all of their materials for elite armor grinding.

And really? I can’t blame ‘em for it. If stack sizes were much larger, most of the incentive to buy bank slots goes away (as that’s mostly what you’d be storing, extra mats and tokens). I’ve got four bank slots full of candy corn, myself, and I still don’t really think it’s fair of me to demand larger bank storage as I understand their reasons for it being capped at 250, both in terms of code and in terms of monetization.

Phantax.1369:

And what happens once every player has the best gear possible ???

Are you saying that Anet should not introduce any new/harder mobs for us to fight ?

To expand/progress the game eventually Anet will ‘have to’ add more difficult content. That means having to add new/better gear to enable the player to beat that content.

No new gear/mobs = stagnent game = dead game !

GW1 is still running, and it’s had horizontal progression since the day it launched. Turns out people are just fine with grinding for skins, thanks.

I will never understand why people still try to insist that a game without vertical progression absolutely cannot survive when the predecessor to this game is proof positive that they’re wrong.

GW1’s PvP was so well liked because it was diverse. There were tons of different modes of play, ranging from small to large groups of people. Basically, everyone had something for them.

Take me for example: I hate PvP in general. Yet I found a bit of an enjoyment for the Jade Quarry’s hectic nature, having everyone run around capturing points and defending them. I like WvW for the same reason, as it’s that same basic game on a much larger scale.

But there’s not nearly as many options for PvP as in GW1, and that turns a lot of people off after coming from such a diverse PvP-centric game. I think if they just open up more options and deal with some of the OPed builds out there, we’ll see more player interest in PvP.

ColinJohanson.2394:

In going back to that whole “let people play the way they want to play” concept:

We’re going to hold off on adding most of the daily achievements that send you to specific parts of the game until we’ve added the ability to select from a list (like 4/6.) The initial version you’ll see with rotating daily achievements won’t feature too many new achievement options, since we don’t want to do more specific type achievements without giving you the choice to pick from a list of stuff you’re more excited about.

That’s just the news I wanted to hear. That settles my concern about dailies becoming as vexing to obtain as monthlies tended to get….giving options is always the best bet!

And I appreciate you spending time with us to explain these things, as we’re all bound to get confused until we’ve seen it live.

Ehra.5240:

Like I said, I’m not opposed to changing how they’re earned. I’m just not seeing how they’re some huge advantage.

The reasons why it is a significant advantage have already been presented to you on multiple occasions. Repeating them again is circular arguing and I have other time commitments at present.

It’s fine if you don’t agree with them. But at least acknowledge that you have been told what those arguments are.

This is actually something I don’t mind. It’s not great news as it means some of my friends are forever isolated from me….but most of ’em no longer play anyways, so tough luck. :p

Firegoth.6427:

Risingashes.8694:

the rewards seem to be cosmetic only.

I wouldn’t call obsidian shards or gear packs cosmetic.

Quite so. In fact….this actually looks to be the most efficient way to gain Obsidian Shards, in fact, if the screenshot is a true indication of in-game prices.

Well, that same blog post also said they’re retooling dailies to function more like the monthly ones, in that they’re going to guide you to content around the game.

We’ll add support so daily achievements will be different each day of the week, which will help drive players to different areas of the world and play together.

And didn’t see anything in there about making monthlies less of a chore, either. So it doesn’t sound like they’re fixing achievements in that respect, they’re actually making them a bit more obnoxious to obtain.

Which I guess I understand since this game is no longer “Whose Line Is It Anyways?” when it comes to points, but it’s still a bit disappointing.

I actually agree, let’s have a poll and find out just how people feel about Vertical Progression. If the poll were to show that people are okay with it, I’d just have to deal. But I think the truth of the matter is that many people know precisely how such a poll would really turn out, which is why they won’t do it.

Ehra.5240:

critickitten.1498:

Let’s put this in context. If WoW had done this

This isn’t WoW.

You’re right, I agree entirely. GW2 isn’t WoW.

Now let’s see if you can take the next step and ask yourself: Then why are they using WoW’s design structure for their game?

No, stop typing your rebuttal, I know you’re already starting your post right now. Stop, and think for a moment. In November, what was added to GW2? Newer and better gear that is exclusive to only one location in the game and not acquired elsewhere.

And what will future expansions be adding? Level cap raises that come with newer and better gear, most of which will be acquired only by playing in the new regions provided by that expansion.

I think that sounds rather familiar to me.

Look at GW1. Yes, I’m tired of saying it just as you’re tired of hearing it, but seriously, it’s the best example of how this problem should be addressed. GW1 added massive amounts of new gear, skills, and content while maintaining horizontal progression, the same level cap, and it kept people hooked for many, many years. If GW2 intends to compete with WoW, it should avoid making the cardinal mistake of trying to beat WoW by using its business model.

Yes, they’ve said they will fix the problem of Ascended gear’s current method of obtainment, and I applaud them for taking that step forward. But should it ever have occurred? Nope. I’m not exactly going to toss out praise for fixing something that should never have happened. We’ll see what happens in the coming months, certainly, but I’m not going to give them a hand for fixing their mistake.

You’re right. GW2 isn’t WoW. So they should prove that by taking steps away from the vertical progression model of WoW.

Yet GW2’s devs have said they’re fine with vertical progression. They want to raise the level cap and introduce more vertical progression in future expansions. I would ask that if you really want to have a discussion, we stop pretending that they’re taking a bold new approach to MMOs and be real for a moment. GW1 did horizontal progression far, far better than GW2 did, and there’s nothing wrong with asking to take a few steps back towards that formula.

I’m happy to have a real discussion with you on this subject provided we’re willing to be realistic. But this discussion is about fixing legendaries, so that’s a discussion best held elsewhere.

Ehra.5240:

critickitten.1498:

Legendaries are not purely aesthetic items.

Yes they are. Their stats will be exactly the same as Ascended weapons when they release, which means the only reason to get a Legendary over an Ascended weapon is because of its aesthetic.

Arguing otherwise simply because getting one now will save you from a hypothetical “grind” that won’t even be a concern until over a year from now is really silly. And even when considering that, it still in no way makes them a must have. It still doesn’t give a gameplay advantage, it just means that the first level 85 exotic or whatever weapon that they get will be sold instead of equipped. So unfair, I know, but I think everyone without will manage.

Legendaries are, in essence, an infinitely scaling item that will always be better than any future item ever made. I’m honestly baffled that people really think they can minimize this as something that isn’t a big deal, because it really, really is.

Let’s put this in context. If WoW had done this, you would have joined up in 2004 and grinded the game to obtain this amazing shiny Weapon A with Lvl 60 power and max stats. But it’s “no big deal”, says its fans, because it’s just as good as Weapon B that has the same stats. So a bunch of people trust these fans, and settle for the much easier gear to obtain.

Let’s fast forward to today. Weapon B is now long, long out of date, a full 30 levels behind in terms of power, and Weapon A has been buffed to Lvl 90 in power. So effectively, anyone who got Weapon A just got 30 levels of power for free over the course of several expansions and patches, and are guaranteed to go up yet again the next time WoW patches as well….while everyone else got to grind out new gear every five levels with each new expansion.

You can’t possibly hope to pretend that the people who own such an item aren’t a HUGE advantage over every other player in the game. There’s a pretty clear difference there in terms of time investment and even just raw stats. Eventually, if ANet continues with vertical progression (and they said they will), Legendaries will significantly outstrip the stats of today, and their owners are getting that power free of charge.

“It’ll take a year for that new gear to come out” is not an effective counterargument against that when we’re talking about the longevity of the game over the course of many years, and we already know for a fact that there will be more vertical progression and that the level cap will likely increase with each expansion. The devs have said as much. Shoving the problem backwards and saying “yeah, but that won’t be a problem for the next year or so” is removing any chance of fixing the problem before it becomes widespread.

I know you don’t think it’s a big deal and that’s fine. But plenty of folks on these forums do, and it would be nice if you’d let them have their discussions, please.

Gilosean.3805:

I don’t mind them improving the process – I would prefer less grind and more interesting ways to get to the goal. I definitely don’t want them to make the process more ‘exclusive’, since they’ve said that legendaries are grind-proofing and will always be best in slot.

When it was just a skin, fine, make it as stupidly Nintendo hard as you want. When it actually makes a difference in the game that does not apply. Then it becomes something everyone could/should have.

If you’re upset because ‘too many people have legendaries’ (silly to tie your ego to that, but whatever), well, it was ANet’s misstep to give them unique functionality. Of course a ton more people are going to want them now.

Hrm, probably a fair point, actually. It’s the sort of problem that just wouldn’t exist if they hadn’t introduced Ascended in the first place, and hadn’t promised to raise the level cap. But that can’t be avoided now.

Even so, I still personally lean towards keeping them extremely difficult to access so that everyone is able to work towards them, but only some people will ever actually make the grade. If everyone has them, well….it flat out defeats the purpose of any other future gear in this game.

Mind, I agree with your sentiment, but I think that door swung closed in November. Now they’re stuck with what they’ve done, and they just have to figure out how to make it fair and still keep it exclusive. shrug

We’re adding new features as well. We’ll introduce a system of prestige and advancement specifically designed for WvW. This will give players a progression path where they earn new WvW-only abilities and bonuses, and with them gain prestige and visible titles/recognition. Also, we’ll add a new motivation to the WvW domain that goes beyond the overall weekly score to give more short term reasons to be winning in WvW as well. We’ll discuss all these features in more detail as we get closer to release!

Some degree of worry here. I don’t play WvW super often, and don’t want to end up in a system whereby I fall significantly behind the WvW’s most hardcore players as that will shun me away from playing it. Please be careful in how you balance these things.

Hey, What About the PvP!?

Pft, what about it? I’ve never liked PvP, not even in GW1 (save for occasional runs of Jade Quarry, which has that same hectic feel as WvW on a much smaller scale), Colin….so I’m sorry, but I probably won’t play this very much no matter what carrot you dangle in front of me here. :p

Expanded and re-designed encounters for bosses in dungeons and the open world.

Good and….wait, just the bosses in dungeons? You’re tearing me apart, Colin! Please look over the dungeons from top to bottom, there are so many aspects that need to be addressed, such as the severe overuse of OHKO mechanics.

Improving the “looking for group” tool to make it easier to find other players to play with in the game.

Thank goodness. The existing tool is just awful, to be blunt, it needs a real fixer-upper.

Overall Impressions: Good blog post. I’m pretty satisfied with what I see, but there are areas I’d like to see improvements in that didn’t make the list (like Legendaries), which disappoints me. Hopefully these next few months deliver some much-needed improvements. I really want to see this game get better and I’m hoping we can start taking steps towards that.

As the title states, this is all my own opinion having just read the blog post for today. So this post will have a lot of that “stream of conscious thought” structure to it, as I type my replies to individual aspects of the blog.

We’ll add tokens for your achievement you can turn in to select from a list of rewards, including new reward types like ascended gear and infusions.

YES, THANK YOU! Finally, all of those points will feel like they hold some significant value. Very pleased with this. My only concern is if that screenie is any indication….then WOW, that will be so much more rewarding than the open-world. Please make sure to increase the quality and quantity of in-game drops too, so that the achievements system doesn’t just end up replacing drops entirely in terms of rewarding players!

We’ll add support so daily achievements will be different each day of the week, which will help drive players to different areas of the world and play together. Later, we’ll also be adding a system that lets you complete a subgroup of achievements to fulfill your daily. For example, if there are 6 daily achievements available, you’ll only need to do 4 of the 6. So you can choose the achievements that you’re most interested in.

A little worried here. The dailies were honestly just about perfect, allowing a player to complete content in any area of the game and feel rewarded for doing so. It’s the monthlies that were the problem area, in that they were shuffling players towards content they didn’t want to do. I’m a bit concerned about the possibility that, in the future, I won’t be able to just hop onto the game, play whereever I want, and get the daily achievement reward, especially with my now-limited time commitments. Hopefully the fact that we’ll only need to perform a handful of those achievements will make the requirements more fair, but I’m a bit worried that this may be more problematic rather than less. But am willing to wait and see how it goes first, and what sort of achievements you’re going to add.

Our reward systems need to be exciting, and include things you want to earn over time, but we don’t want to force our players on endless gear treadmills for new tiers of gear we add every 6 months. You won’t see another tier between ascended and legendary in 2013 for example.

Good to hear! Though I’d have preferred it if you said “You won’t see another tier between ascended and legendary, period”, as people like me are going to take that very literally and get all panicky. Missed opportunity there, Colin.

To that end, we’re working on adding new types of content to the game in early 2013 that will allow guilds to go on missions together. Some of these missions may be content designed specifically for the guild to accomplish within certain constraints or time requirements while others see the creation of new content by a guild/s everyone in the world can experience.

Sounds fun, but need more info before I can get hyped.

Firstly, we’ll be adding paid server transfers, with time limitations and WvW restrictions, and guestingability, which allows players to visit friends on other servers in every part of the game except for WvW. To encourage players to stick with a single server for WvW and fight for the pride of that server, server changes will incur a fee and have time limitations.

Not thrilled about server transfers but can’t really blame you, either. And thank goodness for guesting. Guesting has been needed since forever and I’m glad to hear it’ll finally happen, but it makes me wonder: if my friend joins my guild, and guests onto my server, will his effort playing on my server with me result in him adding guild points to HIS server or to mine? If the latter, this could be a great way to encourage players in larger guilds to play on multiple servers, as they could quickly acquire guild points via guesting. That may be preferable, honestly.

Second, we’ll make improvements to culling. We recently ran small tests on Live to help us move towards eliminating as much culling from WvW as possible. The results have been promising, and we have a number of additional culling features in development. If all goes well, our hope is 2013 is the year culling ceases to exist, or is as minimal as possible in the WvW experience.

Kill the culling. Kill it with a rusty spoon.

(to be continued)

Checkmate.

Er, a chess reference? Hate to inform you, but the chess game ended several posts ago when I dismissed every core argument you had, mate. The fact that you can’t even put forth your own arguments any more is proof positive that your argument was beaten long ago. There is no more chess game now, everyone’s already gone home hours ago, and the janitor needs you to lift your feet so he can sweep the floor under your table.

No one wants easier Legendaries. We want them to live up to the hype that the developers built placed onto them. And to that end, we’re offering a range of suggestions to help improve the game experience and make them even more elite and rare than they are right now, ensuring that people will be hunting these items down for years to come.

And all you’re doing is yelling back “IT’S FINE AS IT IS” and not actually listening to a word anyone’s saying, all because some people dare to ask for an improvement in the way this content is handled. No one here is demanding any unreasonable changes, we’re simply saying “the way you did this isn’t as good as how other MMOs do it, so let’s make some changes so that GW2 can be even better than those other games”. I really don’t understand why you’re being so stubborn about this, I had initially thought that we simply disagreed on how best to improve the game but now I’m thinking you just refuse to acknowledge that the game has any flaws at all. And that’s not good for the longevity of the game.

It’s okay to admit that GW2 isn’t perfect. We can’t improve the game if we’re not willing to admit when something doesn’t fit its intended goal.

NightyNight.1823:

The only thing I could possibly say to that ,Learn how to read ? You’ve clearly misinterpreted what they’ve actually said.

Really?

We don’t make grindy games – we leave the grind to other MMOs.

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.

Nope, pretty sure I can read just fine.

Ye because the game is all about legendaries.If you don’t create your own legendary ,you might aswel just quit!Whats the point , right?
Sorry but thats the Only thing thats stupid here.
What part of optional don’t you understand?
Who says that you HAVE to go for a legendary? Just because its there? Whose forcing you to do it?Does it improve your gameplay? No, it doesn’t. Its just a freakin skin.Same stats as an exotic.

You mean “same stats as an Ascended”, because its stats will raise once Ascended items come out.

Oh, and then when the level cap raises in the expansion that’s likely to release in 2013 at some point, the stats will go up on Legendaries again.

And then again when the next expansion or tier of equipment comes out. And then again.

Honestly, what part of “anti-grind protection” are you not understanding?

Legendaries are not purely aesthetic items. The developers have outright stated that Legendaries will always be Best-In-Slot, which makes them the very best items in the game. Which means you cannot cling to this argument. But obviously you’re not convinced, most likely because you don’t actually grasp the problem yet.

I’m going to explain this as simply as I can, and I hope that this will get the point across.

Suppose we have two sets of gear, A and B, with equal stats. A requires a lot more grind to get than B (let’s pretend it’s 100 hours of grinding vs only 20), so naturally, most people will want to just save time and grab B.

But now we introduce a new gear set, C, that is significantly stronger than B, and we buff A. C, of course, takes a lot more grinding to fully deck your character out in, so let’s say it’s about 35 hours instead. So now if you had B, you’re now underpowered and will need to grind to get C (thus raising your overall time spent grinding gear up to 55 hours). Well, it was still a lot less time to get B and C, right, so you still feel validated.

But then, expansion comes out. Level cap is now 85, and there’s more gear to grind for. Let’s say it’s 50 hours this time to have a full set of gear set D. Meanwhile, the guys who had A get another automatic power boost. So to reach the pinnacle and get D, you’ve now invested 105 hours in total grinding through all of the gear tiers….so you’ve now spent more time running uphill on this vertical progression system than you would have spent if you’d just invested your time more wisely and gone for the gear that never becomes obsolete.

And just wait until the next expansion, when set E comes out! Then you’ll feel really stupid for even wasting your time in all these other tiers, and by this point you may just quit out of frustration (as many people often do when placed on a never-ending treadmill for the best gear).

See why this is a problem now? You can’t claim that Legendaries are just aesthetic if they are always on par with the best items in the game, because their owners get free power increases for the life of the game. They become grind-proof simply for grinding once….or in the case of those who just buy their Legendary, not at all.

This sort of incredible power shouldn’t just be available to the highest bidder. That’s a bad way to handle things. Only those who demonstrate exceptional skill in the game should be obtaining that kind of permanency and that level of power….and that’s why I want to change Legendaries, in a nutshell.

Not because I can never get one as they currently are (in fact I’m inching closer to Kudzu every day), but because I think it’s a shame that we’re taking such amazing equipment and completely throwing its potential away.

Mackdose.6504:

According to VG charts, in retail distribution (not direct from buy.guildwars2.com) The game is holding steady at ~10k sales/per mo. after its initial surge.

That’s not bad considering it’s amazon and brick n mortar.

You may want to check that data again.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/37350/guild-wars-2/USA/

What you’re quoting isn’t monthly data, it’s weekly. And it’s only for the first ten weeks of sales, which would take it up through November, just before the release of Lost Shores. I wonder what the data would look like after that point, hrm….

NightyNight.1823:

Legendary is just an estetic.At the moment its just as strong as an exotic.In the future it will be just as strong as the next tier.And even if they were to be slighly stronger the difference will be too small to be relevant.So you don’t have to worry that people who grind more than you are stronger.
And that should be the end of the legendary topic.

We’ve already established that Legendaries are far more than an “aesthetic” (the word you’re trying to spell) item. I won’t continue to argue against circular logic that has already been disproven by the devs’ own words. Find a better argument, or else please allow those of us who have grievances to bring them up in peace. We don’t need people coming in here and arguing the same tired, stale, beaten-to-death arguments about how we just want an easy mode for Legendaries (we don’t), how it’s totally optional (which is only true if no extra gear comes out after the Ascended stuff comes out, and we know that won’t be true), and how every MMORPG has grind so it’s okay (it’s not, especially when the devs promised us a no-forced-grind game and already made a no-forced-grind game in the past). We have already disproved and shot down these arguments in every single thread this topic has come up. If you can’t present something other than that, please stay out of the conversation so that we can have a healthy dialogue with the developers without disruption.

And for the record, the devs have stated they want to add more Legendaries, so Legendary armor isn’t outside the realm of possibility. And I’ve already calculated in the past that a full set of Ascended gear with a Berserker lean yields 23% more damage than a full set of Exotic gear with a Berserker lean, so you can’t argue the case that a power increase isn’t significant because that’s a lie, too. And it’ll only get worse if they decide to violate their other recent promise not to introduce more tiers of gear (which I suspect they’ll have to break, if they intend to move forward with vertical progression as they’ve said they do).

sasoriza.5967:

I dislike legendaries because they are a symbol of wealth instead of player skill/determination

All I needed to read to know that you don’t know what you’re talking about. In what alternate universe is 100% world completion, collecting dungeon tokens, badges of honors and fine materials a sign of wealth?

Let me flip that question back on you for a moment.

Which of those tasks are a test of your skill and “proof of your accomplishments”? I’ll answer that for you: the dungeon tokens are the only one on that list that shows genuine effort on your part.

100% world completion? Can be done without any degree of skill. Badges of honor? You only have to tag targets in WvW with enough damage to receive credit for their eventual death when fighting in large zergs, so it’s mostly a matter of properly placed AoE attacks and time (and I know this because I’ve played enough WvW that I’ve often received credit for “killing” targets that I was nowhere near any more, purely because I had tagged them earlier with my ranger’s Barrage). Fine materials? All buyable from the TP if you’re lazy, and farming them is not a skill test either.

Oh, and then of course there’s the deathblow to your argument: You can skip ALL of that “work” and just buy a Legendary off of the Trading Post, thus committing absolutely no effort on your own part to obtaining it. Something which the devs have stated is working correctly and is not, in fact, an unintentional design mistake.

So yes, it’s perfectly fair to assert that, for some people out there, Legendaries are more a symbol of their wealth than their determination.

Tolmos.8395:

critickitten.1498:

Lambent.6375:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Fellblade.jpg (the hulking 1 hand version)

This one is already in the game. Only available to GW1 players with 23 Hall of Monuments reward points.

And is also 2H.

Because it’s a greatsword, not a 1H sword. GW1 didn’t distinguish between sword types, so they were all 1H. Even when it looked positively ridiculous to wield with 1 hand.

And it’s rather unlikely they’ll take an HoM-exclusive skin and put it into the game as a skin that anyone can get, anyways.

NightyNight.1823:

Now hold your horses.I’m only here to explain how reality works.You can dress it up any way you want , the truth is , no matter how much they tried to minimise it , guild wars 2 is just another grind fest. Just like every other mmo out there.Thats something that will never change in an online game.Grind is the core of every MMO .That doesn’t make it okay , its just a reality.You might aswell just live whit it. Or don’t ,no one’s forcing you to play online games.
Ohh, and if you don’t like grind , don’t do it.Again ,its optional.
ALSO
The only thing they promised was no grind for better gear.Only grind for estetics .As in legendary estetic.
There , problem solved.

That is not a good argument in favor of keeping things as they are.

That’s “eh, grind can’t be helped, so why bother trying”. Which, as we’ve established, is not only a bad argument (as there are plenty of good ways to decrease the grind, as people have suggested), it’s 100% against the mentality that the devs have said they’re seeking to create in this game.

I don’t disagree that a goal of “no grind” is exceedingly difficult. It’s far harder to achieve than vertical progression, for sure, which is essentially the lazy way to build a game: just make new stuff have bigger numbers, and you’re done. But the idea of “no grind” is not impossible and in fact has already been achieved before. GW1 managed it and yet have kept people playing since 2005, with the only actual grinds being true cosmetics. And when I say true cosmetics, I mean “armors that cost several thousand gold in trade, but were equal in power to armor sets costing a mere 5 gold that could be purchased in an ordinary vendor shop”. GW2, on the other hand, has promised that the game’s future will include more vertical progression, and Legendaries have been promised to remain Best-In-Slot for good. Which makes them more than mere cosmetics….they’re protection against all of the future grind that the devs have stated they’re in favor of. That makes Legendaries more than simply cosmetics because they’re guaranteed to be the best items in the game at all times. Which, in turn, means that if the dev team wishes to promise a “no grind” game, then they need to ensure that power is not grinded for. And right now? There’s no way to argue that Ascended and Legendary gear are not grinded for.

I’m okay with only one stack in the collectibles window, actually. That would be far preferable to none.

And I imagine the whole point of having to obtain so many resources and tokens and such is to help push people to get more bank slots to store it all, anyways, so I doubt they’ll increase the stack size.

Lambent.6375:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Fellblade.jpg (the hulking 1 hand version)

This one is already in the game. Only available to GW1 players with 23 Hall of Monuments reward points.

NightyNight.1823:

That includes :

That you’re awesome at working the TP?
The you can do the WvW jumping puzzle over and over?
That you can do the same thing over and over until you’ve got enough resource?

Online games are build around grind.If you don’t like grind don’t play online games.
In the end no one promised you nothing.

Hm, that would be a good argument, except that the developers of this game disagree with you.

Here’s what they said before the game’s release:

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/21/guild-wars-2-interview-monetization/#s:guildwars2-16

Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games – we leave the grind to other MMOs.

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Interesting, because Legendaries are Best-In-Slot and the developers have confirmed that they always will be, so it sure sounds to me like the rarest items in the game are also the best by far.

And here’s what they said after the release of Lost Shores:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.

And I’ll note that all three of these posts state the obvious: the devs promised no grind. There is clearly grind in this game.

Face it, you’re reiterating the same tired arguments that many people on these forums have long dismissed….with quotes from the developers themselves, no less. You can’t argue “grind is okay” when the devs admit that it’s not. You can’t argue “it’s optional” when it’s obviously not going to be optional in some locations of the game (and, I suspect after these upcoming patches, it will be even more required than ever as it’s very likely the old dungeons will be retooled to utilize the Agony system, as will all dungeons moving forward).

You’re going to have to try much, much harder if you intend to convince anyone here that it’s a-okay for developers to promise something and then not deliver on it. In any other game that has done such a thing, players have rightfully complained about it. GW2 is a great game, but it doesn’t deliver on its promises, and it’s time to have a real dialogue with the devs so we can fix that.

NightyNight.1823:

“…allowing you to really show off your accomplishments.”
And thats exacly what it is.No one said they would be impresive.Or what ever you think its impresive.
Personal oppinions and your personal idea of a legendary is quite redundant.Thats what it is .If you’re dissapointed , no one’s forcing you to make them.Its entirely up to you and completly optional.

….I could be mistaken and I apologize if this seems insulting, but I think you’re using words that you don’t quite understand the meaning of.

“Redundant” = No longer needed or useful; superfluous.

My opinion is not “redundant” because it clearly differs from the way that Legendaries exist in the game, and clearly matches the intended design as expressed by the developers themselves. My opinion being expressed here would only be “redundant” if the game’s format for obtaining Legendaries matched my own opinion.

They did not state that Legendaries were just some expensive crafting items, they stated that Legendaries are unique articles that are meant to show off your accomplishments and what you’ve been doing in GW2.

If you can explain to me how buying a Legendary off of the Trading Post (or buying the supplies to forge it yourself) are indicative of all of your personal in-game accomplishments, I’ll happily cede this point. But since you cannot do that, let’s not bat this back and forth as if it’s really an opinion. It’s not. The developers were VERY clear what they wanted Legendaries to be, and that’s not in line with what they are right now.

And it’s perfectly fine for disappointed players to say “Hey, it’s okay, you just made a bad decision. Everyone does it, we’re all human. Now let’s sit down together and fix this thing”. I really grow tired of people who say “it’s optional so it’s okay that it’s not well designed” because it demonstrates a lack of understanding. Bad game design is not excused by whether or not it’s mandatory….and it is bad game design, because this is meant to be a zero-grind game as the devs have repeatedly emphasized.

So let’s stop this sillyness about how “it’s optional” and “the devs didn’t say this”, and get right down to the meat of the situation. The devs said they wanted X, but Legendaries are clearly Y instead. Let’s try to help the developers get back to X. It’s not bad to question a game and point out its flaws, that’s how the devs can create the optimal experience based on the game they promised their players.

He’s right, though. The starter maps clearly were supposed to be the norm in terms of design: Good, unique content. A variety of events with a variety of enemies and a variety of goals. And tons of events that trigger often enough for players to not feel like the area is abandoned.

Yet the level of creativity involved in later maps drops off rather rapidly, and by the time you hit Orr, you’re either defending Location X from Risen or you’re attacking Location Y which is full of Risen. And the events in later maps were far more buggy than those in starter maps primarily due to a lack of testing in those later maps.

This is what happens when you rush a game out the door so as to compete with TOR and TERA, instead of just taking another few months (maybe even another year) to polish the late game content. They had an ample supply of beta testers telling them to hold off on release because the game wasn’t ready. This is one thing that I wish the devs had stuck to: the “when it’s ready” approach to design pretty much vanished as the year got closer and closer to ending. Honestly, what’s the better move: making sure your game’s end content is the best it can be, or making sure your game releases in the “Year of the Dragon” on the Chinese calendar? I don’t understand why they pushed an incomplete product to market and expected this reaction…it’s because they rushed it out the door back in August that they’re having to sit down now in Jan/Feb/March to fix it all. >.<

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve read this a couple times, where are you getting the information that the players just up and left?

Well, it’s all circumstantial of course, but….

• The number of players who admitted to quitting in these forums and others.
• A significantly drop-off in player count on some sites, such as Xfire.
• More and more complaints about empty servers.

And their sales figures are also much lower, so there aren’t as many new players buying the game (mostly due to bad press and bad word of mouth from those in these forums and/or those who have left).

There is no concrete evidence that people have left, this is true. However I think it’s ridiculous for anyone to actually believe that GW2’s numbers are as high as they were at launch by this point in time, especially given the large promotional sale GW2 did for the holidays to try and entice new players. This is generally the point in time when most MMOs experience a significant exodus anyways, as demonstrated by Rift, TERA, and SWTOR before this.

Luchifer.8026:

legendary is only a pretty skin, if u dont like it dont do it

Then they shouldn’t have sold it as something else.

The way it was presented by the developers themselves imply that it is meant to be GW2’s answer to all of the top gear in games like WoW.

And if that’s the case, then Legendaries in GW2 are positively put to shame by other MMO equivalents, as those games often have less grind for these items and have far more story and lore behind them, too.

But don’t take my word for it. Let’s listen to Mr Cartwright pump up how awesome Legendaries are supposed to be. And in your head, I want you to compare the tedious grind of GW2’s Legendaries with what he’s saying about them, and see if they really match up in your head. Then take a moment to go looking for comparable gear in other major MMOs and what it takes to get them. You’ll be quite surprised, I’ll bet.

Dunno about you, but the way he goes on about them, it doesn’t sound to me like they’re just meant to be “pretty skins” and nothing more. Heck, why make a video exclusively dedicated to boasting about them if that’s all they’re supposed to be: expensive crafting items?

Iruwen.3164:

critickitten.1498:

Legendaries should not boil down to RNG or TP, that doesn’t guarantee that the very best players get them. There’s no reason that they can’t introduce a system that relies on skill….and the only proposed solution that would at least take steps to move us towards such a system is not in active development.

Legendaries are not for the best, but the most dedicated players. There should always be multiple ways to achieve them.

I’m pretty sure we’re arguing the same thing with different terms.

If, however, you’re attempting to argue that the current model is an example of proving one’s “dedication” to the game….

Agreed, and actually this goes into another problem with Ascended gear….it’s always Account-Bound. I understand why, but it’s extremely sad that when I get an Ascended ring I don’t want, I can’t do anything with it except vendor trash it. And because of it being Account-Bound, I make less money off of that Ascended ring than I would off of an Exotic ring sale. That seems rather backwards to me.

I’d like to see an exchange system whereby you trade rings you don’t want for rings you do want. I wouldn’t expect a 1-to-1 trade, naturally, maybe make it 2-3 unwanted rings in exchange for your choice of ring. This would help cut down on the grind for a specific ring or ring set, as well.

maddoctor.2738:

About WvW: the February patch is going to introduce Ascended gear to WvW so Ascended will come and STAY in WvW. The problem here will be the acquisition of it, since everyone is level 80 in WvW it makes sense that even a level 1 would be able to wear Ascended gear while in WvW, so it alls go down to how exactly Ascended gear will be acquired in WvW.

Source proving that the Feb patch will add Ascended to WvW, please?

Also, while you are up-leveled to 80 in WvW, you still acquire skills, traits, and equipment at your real level and cannot equip anything above that mark.

I think this argument boils down to that same stance commonly seen in real life, actually.

“That terrorist doesn’t have basic rights and humanity! He killed people, that makes him worth less than me, and thus I can do whatever I want to him!”

You wanna kill the Separatists planting bombs, okay, that’s fair, they’re actually committing a crime in public and trying to commit mass murder in full view of everyone. The ones hiding inside their own house, though? Wouldn’t it be a tad more appropriate to, like, bring a warrant, preferably with the authority of the local militia behind it?

I’m not saying I sympathize with the Separatists, mind, but the whole “knock on a door and suddenly you’re killing Separatists in public” thing does seem a tad awkward in retrospect. And why exactly are Separatists just leaping out of the house to attack you simply for knocking? That whole house option just feels a bit weird.

bluewanders.5297:

I don’t mind ascended so much as long as that isn’t where they game heads in totality… give me more skills like in gw1… give me lots MOAR skills… I want build diversity… lots of it… I want “elite” skills that you have to seek out and earn… I want more skins… give me options, lots and lots of cosmetic options…

I do want more skills, especially in weapons, though I don’t miss the “elite hunt” myself. I’d just like more than one elite option on some characters for underwater combat, please. It’s a tad ridiculous that this is even a thing.

We haven’t seen what ascended weapons and armor will do to us yet… if the power curve is low it won’t have that much affect on wvw during the time people are grinding it out (if they bother)… what frightens me more is a level cap increase.

I don’t want a level cap increase… and I know they’ve already said they are open to the idea…

I suspect that when full sets of Ascended gear come out, they will confirm my hypothesis that the differential will be much higher than people think it is, though I don’t expect my figures to be exact.

As to level cap increases: They’re not merely “open” to the idea, they basically confirmed that they designed the game with the intention of eventually raising the level cap. Colin himself said this in an interview:

The level cap will be 80 on the initial release of the game, and we absolutely would increase it further into the game, probably through expansions is the most likely place we would do that.

bluewanders.5297:

Look again… the quote I circled from the screenshot I took today says 3 weeks ago… well after the Nov. 15 patch.

The game is still (mostly) horizontal progression… and hopefully they will expand on that part of the character progression and keep the low power curve of the vertical.

I’d like to hope so.

On the other hand, we’ve got quotes from the devs saying they believe in vertical progression and will continue with it moving forward. So my optimism is somewhat low.

TheDaiBish.9735:

If you think about what a ‘quest’ is in an MMO, it’s a task. That means it can have whatever requirements needed to complete it.

So yes, while the entire process of crafting a Legendary might be a story quest, it doesn’t mean that it has to be easy.

From what I can gather, a lot of people want a story based quest for the lore and context, not to make things easier.

I’d settle for this, yeah.

My personal preference, though, is for Legendaries to involve a mix of item acquisition and actual skill-based challenges to truly test you and your skill as a player.

I expect if you integrate these two elements well, you’d end up with only the most talented players getting Legendaries. They’d be more rare, if anything, than they are now.

Halanna.3927:

Can you provide a link please?

If that is the case, I might as well quit now. I wanted to play a NEW game. Not a WoW clone. If I’m going to have to gear grind, I might as well go back to that game as I have 5 years invested in it.

Thanks a lot Anet.

Sorry to be the one to let you know, but it’s true. Confirmed in an AMA after the release of Lost Shores.

I already quoted it in another thread but here it is again:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

Yes the response was definitively expected. We did not intent for the information to come out this way. Going back to my previous answer the issue is that we believe in the vertical progression system we had pre launch and that the introduction of an element into the system post launch was going to cause concern but something we believe in.

….

So to the question of vertical progression. So as we know there is already vertical progression in the game and we do intend to keep moving forward with this philosophy.

….

I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.

Toxyn.9608:

Change the quality name of these items from Legendary to Mystic. Some people seem to think that Legendary items must be devoid of a grind and must have a lore background (the Legend in Legendary).

I just view these items as a unique-skinned version of the highet stat tier. They are forged – not found – so how can they have a pre-existing lore background? I like to think that we are the heroes which will build the legend behind these items. Already, they have aided in the death of an Elder Dragon.

Why does everything have to be so over-analyzed?

It’s not the name. The devs have no one to blame but themselves for getting everyone hyped about Legendaries. They were the ones who made them sound like they were special, unique, and epic items that only a handful of players would have. The answer to every other MMO’s versions of the same sort of “elite” content.

Or have we forgotten this video already?

Mirta.5029:

critickitten.1498:

Mirta.5029:

The difference seems to be small between the gear sets.

That’s their claim.

However, I’ve already done the math, assuming a 10% increase in stats (based on their own words stating that the intention is a 5-10% increase in power, as well as estimations based on existing Ascended gear in comparison to Exotics).

The net result is a 23% increase in overall damage as compared to someone with Exotic gear.

That is not a “small” increase.

You’re welcome to check my math here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-just-found-out/page/3

wait, if we take a person fully decked out in exotics and compare to a person fully decked out in ascendeds, every item having 10% higher stats, wouldn’t it be a 10% higher stats over exotics in total?

Not quite.

Damage is a multiplicative factor. Your base damage is multiplied by the amount of Power you have and divided by the overall Armor Rating (Armor + Toughness) of the enemy target. As such, having 10% more Power actually grants you a little bit more than a 10% increase in your damage.

That combined with your increased Critical Damage and Critical Rate means that you’re also hitting harder on criticals and doing them more often, so that, too, will raise your overall damage significantly. And as I indicated in my post, Critical Damage on these new items is actually in general higher than a 10% increase in stats overall, so that’s also contributing negatively to the power increase of the new tier.

Mirta.5029:

The difference seems to be small between the gear sets.

That’s their claim.

However, I’ve already done the math, assuming a 10% increase in stats (based on their own words stating that the intention is a 5-10% increase in power, as well as estimations based on existing Ascended gear in comparison to Exotics).

The net result is a 23% increase in overall damage as compared to someone with Exotic gear.

That is not a “small” increase.

You’re welcome to check my math here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-just-found-out/page/3

Mirta.5029:

1. Ascended is supposed to be the last tier

Yes, that’s what I said.

Mirta.5029:

2. There’s no guarantee that the level cap won’t be raised with an expansion and level 80 legendaries wouldn’t be obsolete in comparison to the level 90 legendaries. You can’t win an MMO.

No guarantee except for this one of course:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

You’ll also see more Legendary items in the future and an update to our existing Legendary weapons. Legendary items were always intended to be on par with other “best-in-slot” items. So fear not, all existing Legendary weapons, which are currently on par with Exotics, will be upgraded to be on par with Ascended weapons at the same time that we add Ascended weapons to the game. Thus Legendaries will remain “best-in-slot” items.

Best-In-Slot means Best-In-Slot, period. That means when they raise the level cap, Legendaries should receive a power boost to match the Best-In-Slot items released in that patch/expansion.

If indeed they do release future legendaries of higher power levels….then I guess deserve all of the flak they will definitely get as a result, because they shouldn’t make a promise they don’t intend to keep.

Mirta.5029:

3. Quote where the devs say that they want a vertical progression for this game. As far as I remember it’s a minimal difference between tiers and no vertical progression is there. So source needed for that one.

Okay, if you insist.

The most recent quote is, of course, in November.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

The new additions in November are just the start of our item progression initiative. We’re going to add tons of new high-level content to Guild Wars 2 in the future. As we introduce the new high-level content, we’ll also roll out complimentary Ascended and Legendary items (to say nothing of the other rewards you can earn by playing the content).

Then there’s posts from Reddit which confirm that the game will have vertical progression moving forward, and that the dev team believes in a vertical progression system.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

Yes the response was definitively expected. We did not intent for the information to come out this way. Going back to my previous answer the issue is that we believe in the vertical progression system we had pre launch and that the introduction of an element into the system post launch was going to cause concern but something we believe in.

….

So to the question of vertical progression. So as we know there is already vertical progression in the game and we do intend to keep moving forward with this philosophy.

….

I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.

So, as I said, the team has directly stated that they will continue with vertical progression.

The one credit to your favor is that the team does directly state in that AMA that they do not intend to release other tiers of equipment. We’ll see if they stick to that philosophy or not. I suspect not, because it’s going to be extremely difficult for them to continue forward with vertical progression without adding new tiers of gear. They’d have to rely entirely on level cap raises to pull that off, and (as pointed out earlier) people are grinding Legendaries for the sake of being able to avoid that future grind. So if they don’t end up keeping Legendaries as BiS, I suspect they will be in serious trouble when the game’s first expansion releases.

Zorada.9457:

Very nice wall of text but i do already know what power creep is thanks mate.

The point is if you dont buy into the power creep and have to have the best of everything then they wont make it so. They do it so people buy stuff from the real money side of the game as well as giving you more content to aim for.

You know who is to blame for this? its not the Devs its you and me and anyone else who plays these games because no body is happy and they scream for more more more. If people didnt buy into the progression then they wouldnt do it.

Im not here to get into an argument with anyone but if your old enough you will understand that games have fundimentaly changed over the past 20+ years and the change is run by the users not the devs. they are just giving the masses what they want.

So your suggestion for fixing the problem is….?

You’re arguing that it’s an impossible battle and thus can’t be changed. I’m arguing that it’s impossible to know the outcome of the battle if you never try to fight it in the first place.

If your only point is that it can’t be changed because people honestly don’t want it changed, I’d say these forums, the number of Reddit threads, and the complaints in almost every other GW2 fan forum are a concrete example of how wrong you are.

Minion of Vey.4398:

When they add more legendaries I’d be fine with them adding new ways to get them etc besides just huge cash sinks.

Only question is, what could be a large and challenging quest in this game? Let’s face it, there isn’t any individual thing in this game that’s difficult or challenging. Having people run all the paths of all the dungeons or something wouldn’t be hard, just another annoying grind pretty comparable to grinding gold. PvP can be challenging depending on who you’re fighting or what the situation is, but getting tokens from killing players isn’t challenging, you’ll get them.

Actually, I’ve already made a suggestion in the vein of what I’d like to see, as linked in my signature. I’ll quote it for the sake of ease.

Just as an example, Yakkington’s Ring (an Ascended item) is an item with tremendous nostalgic value to GW1 players and countless historical value. It seems a total waste that it can only be obtained by running Fractals nearly a dozen times. Imagine if it had been a legendary item instead, whose quest starts at Yakkington’s gravesite. You visit there, feeling a source of tremendous power, only to find yourself pulled into the Mists. There you encounter Nicholas the Traveler and Professor Yakkington, and you can talk with them. Nicholas, obviously not willing to hang over the ring for nothing, sends you on a quest to explore the world of Tyria and face off against the ghosts of its past in a huge quest that takes you around the world, just like how Nicholas himself would travel around the world asking for all sorts of junk. Simple concepts like that would take the idea of ‘legendary’ items and turn them into something with TONS of lore and sentimental value behind it, challenging players and giving them a reason to feel like this item is something fantastic and special.

Such a quest could have huge ties to old GW1 lore, making it a thorough nostalgia trip for anyone who played those games, and would add huge significance to the Legendary items in question.

For example, wouldn’t the quest for Eternity be much more interesting if you were told that it was a reforging of the greatsword that Grenth used to defeat Dhuum and take over the Underworld? And, in accordance with this, you’d have to travel deep into the Underworld to collect the shards of the broken greatsword to forge Twilight, and then travel across Tyria collecting the shards of the greatsword to forge Sunrise, with the minions of Dhuum hot on your heels at all times. Finally, you quest deep into the Underworld and have a final confrontation with Dhuum himself, 1-vs-1, to finish the reforging of the sword. You can’t possibly tell me that wouldn’t be far more epic than it is right now.

It’s honestly and truly not hard to come up with great ideas for background stories for each of these Legendaries. Yes, it’d be a ton of work, I do not deny that. They’d have needed to invest a lot of time into it. But I also remember a development team that promised only to release this game “when it’s ready” and how they would only give us a finished product that they’d continue to add to. If they had stuck to their principles and released the game later on, with Legendaries in this format and several other issues with the game fixed as well, they’d have created a far superior game. It’s only because they rushed the game out to compete with SWTOR and TERA that we’re in this situation. Now it’s time for them to fix it.