Guild Wars 2

Azreell.1568:

Traveller.7496:

Give an option to switch stats for ascended gear. Problem solved.

I have been saying this forever.

Give an option with a few days or week cd.

Legendary still stays top tier and and Ascended would actually have some worth.

But, No one seemed to interested in that ideal.

They won’t do it, because the current system makes them more money. If people could switch on the fly then gem sales would drop because you don’t need to re-grind, for some that’s re-pay.

It’s the same reason we don’t have a vanity tab and never will. Because Transmutation Crystal sales would take a dive.

Traveller.7496:

Give an option to switch stats for ascended gear. Problem solved.

But then people would complain about legendaries being worthless.

If Arenanet wants to make massive changes to the core gameplay, why can’t we have a vote before it takes place?

It’s too late the damage is done. I just wish Arena net didn’t lie to us about it and try to tell us Ascended was put there to “bridge the gap” between exotics and legendaries. I remember them saying the only gear grind will be for cosmetics only. I was totally fine with this concept and was willing to work just for looks of armor.

Reminds me of the time Jay Wilson lied about the RMAH in D3 having nothing to do with bad loot drops, now they have removed RMAH and improved the loot drop rate.

Why do they lie? Don’t they know we can see through their bullkitten?

They could have just said, “We needed to add something for the hardcore players, ascended was the easiest way to keep them happy. Sorry for the whole backflip on being there no vertical gear grind.”

It’s a social thing. It’s more fun to do Fracs and Dungeons with friends than with strangers. Anet is trying to give guilds more meaning.

Sandpit.3467:

This game needs a lot more configuration of the graphics local to the client. First and foremost we need to be able to turn done the crazy particle effects levels that makes everything we see on screen pointless.

Yes. It needs an Atari graphics mode. :P

Hexalot.8194:

hellsmachine.4085:

Tao.5096:

hellsmachine.4085:

I think there are two types of Pay 2 Win.

Soft P2W: Games like GW2 and NW that have advantages also obtainable via in game currency

Hard P2W: Games like AoC, where without paying you can not win end game content.

NW – you can exchange ingame currency into shop currency
GW2 – same thing

i.e. you can obtain shop items w/o spending a penny out of your wallet in game.
Also, both shops don’t have even p2w items that boost you up heavily beyond normal player.
NW tho differ since it’s f2p anyway – and Cryptic studio does a good job maintaining ingame balance between ingame items and shop items.

In GW2 the only thing that would be p2w would be boosters….but really? I get them from daily/monthly rewards too, and they’re free.

Mining/harvesting tool – I can’t imagine someone not being able to purchase gathering tools out of merchant :/

Okay, they have some customizable items, remodel skins etc, but hey.
It doesn’t affect game experience and yet we treat it as donating developer team and maintaining servers which aren’t cheap.

so yeah, your comparison is good but I really don’t see any GW2 shop item even as soft p2w.
Maybe if they would add Level up Tomes.

I still think it’s technically pay to win. I can buy gems convert to gold, and buy ascended mats or even legendary. It’s not a bad thing. Many games have this. Even D3 was soft pay to win.

The problem here is that ascended/legendary gear doesn’t give enough of an advantage over standard exotics to be really considered P2W gear.

If you ever played Perfect World you’d know what I was talking about. In that game, gear that was only available via boutique purchase (either real money or lengthy grinding for coins) had more than twice the stats of gear available from the open world/dungeons.

It’s just a different level of P2W. Same principle.

Anet has found a good balance.

Hexalot.8194:

hellsmachine.4085:

I think there are two types of Pay 2 Win.

Soft P2W: Games like GW2 and NW that have advantages also obtainable via in game currency

Hard P2W: Games like AoC, where without paying you can not win end game content.

Your hard P2W definition is also false. There are plenty of hardcore P2W MMOs out there where you can get end game gear (typically available only from cash shop) without paying a cent. Those are typically games where you can grind for gold/coin which can then be converted into cash shop currency to buy end game gear.

What makes them P2W is that in those games it typically takes months to a year (unless you’re a wiz in the Auction House) to grind the coin necessary to buy the cash shop end game gear required to “win” the game. On the other hand, someone with a credit card can just swipe and instantly get that same end game gear that you’re currently grinding your butt off for. Hence that someone has just “paid to win”.

As far as GW2 is concerned, nothing in the boutique that I’ve seen comes even remotely close to providing superiority over anyone else at end game. And by “superiority” I’m talking about better offense, defense, mobility, etc… over someone playing with non boutique items. Merely having the better fashion or stat resetting convenience doesn’t count as P2W IMO.

You missed my point entirely.

Gieniusz Krab.8259:

hellsmachine.4085:

Czesc. I think it’s your governments fault for not forcing English to be taught more in schools and used more often in society. When I was last in Poland (my parents are from Poland) very few people speak English there and almost all signs are in Polish.

As you see I don’t have a problem with English which I already said. I want PL in GW2 because Arena Net developed this game in all Europe, not a little bit of it.

And I don’t want gear grind. But I have to deal with it because the majority wants it. Tough luck my friend.

You’re from Polska. You should be used to life being unfair. That’s one of our strengths.

Czesc. I think it’s your governments fault for not forcing English to be taught more in schools and used more often in society. When I was last in Poland (my parents are from Poland) very few people speak English there and almost all signs are in Polish.

Tao.5096:

hellsmachine.4085:

I think there are two types of Pay 2 Win.

Soft P2W: Games like GW2 and NW that have advantages also obtainable via in game currency

Hard P2W: Games like AoC, where without paying you can not win end game content.

NW – you can exchange ingame currency into shop currency
GW2 – same thing

i.e. you can obtain shop items w/o spending a penny out of your wallet in game.
Also, both shops don’t have even p2w items that boost you up heavily beyond normal player.
NW tho differ since it’s f2p anyway – and Cryptic studio does a good job maintaining ingame balance between ingame items and shop items.

In GW2 the only thing that would be p2w would be boosters….but really? I get them from daily/monthly rewards too, and they’re free.

Mining/harvesting tool – I can’t imagine someone not being able to purchase gathering tools out of merchant :/

Okay, they have some customizable items, remodel skins etc, but hey.
It doesn’t affect game experience and yet we treat it as donating developer team and maintaining servers which aren’t cheap.

so yeah, your comparison is good but I really don’t see any GW2 shop item even as soft p2w.
Maybe if they would add Level up Tomes.

I still think it’s technically pay to win. I can buy gems convert to gold, and buy ascended mats or even legendary. It’s not a bad thing. Many games have this. Even D3 was soft pay to win. I like that I get an advantage for spending my hard earned money on a game, whilst all the basement dwellers have to grind for it, because they don’t work. It’s a good system. Company makes money, I get perks win/win.

That’s where Path of Exile failed to make any money off me, what’s the point in me spending my money on a game if I don’t get anything out of it? (I wanted to support that game, but not for bling)

Agree to disagree.

I think there are two types of Pay 2 Win.

Soft P2W: Games like GW2 and NW that have advantages also obtainable via in game currency

Hard P2W: Games like AoC, where without paying you can not win end game content.

The only game with micro transactions I have ever played with no P2W is PoE.
Spending money gives only cosmetic changes and no in game advantage. That game’s not exactly thriving.

GW2 needs soft P2W to survive, running an MMO costs big bux. Just accept it and move on.

Buying minis with gems is P2W.

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Let me help you: Your Friend

Thankyou kind sir!

kimeekat.2548:

I think what you really need to do is go use this build build editor (or one like it). Get your base build, armor and trinkets down in exotics, then flip ‘em to the same type of ascendeds. In the half an hour this thread has been of no help to you, you probably could have specced it yourself this way It gives you way more control than some random dude’s screenshots.

Good idea, it actually has been of help to me. Thanks.

1. Pandas
2. Flying mounts
3. New gear every 3 months
4. Sub fee
5. Resilience gear

Not saying I wish for these changes, just saying this would blow my mind.

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Well, what stats do you want to compare? Clerics? Berserker? You want us to list the stats that you are looking for but you aren’t telling us what you want. Search the wiki for what you want.

I would like for someone to post photos of their hero tab before and after.

Could be berserker, as long as it’s the same exotics vs ascended stats.

Naevius.3185:

The armor values are on the wiki: (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor)

Armor Piece Exotic Ascended
Light Medium Heavy Light Medium Heavy
Headgear 73 97 121 77 102 127
Shoulders 73 97 121 77 102 127
Chest 314 338 363 330 355 381
Gloves 133 157 182 140 165 191
Leggings 194 218 242 203 229 254
Boots 133 157 182 140 165 191
Total 920 1064 1211 967 1118 1271

So for Heavy armor it is 0.0495, or 5%.

For attributes, it is 0.044, or a bit less.

But…that is 5% to both ‘offense’ and to ‘defense’. And then add in weapons, which have a multiplicative effect.

That isn’t quite ‘trivial’ anymore. Whether it matters compared to thinks like ‘knowing when to dodge’ is a different question.

I’ve seen this already, but this doesn’t take into account base stats.

The end result or total stats is what really matters here. Not just differences in gear alone.

Waldir.2571:

I’ve heard the 5% theory as well but I never bothered to put it into a calculator, I would be surprised if its even that much.

I’ve also heard 10%, 20% and even 30%. Would be good to finally find out for sure and lay this to rest already.

Maybe an ArenaNet staff member can help us… Hintity hint hint…

I would also like to see this implemented. I don’t like being reminded of how poor I am…

Waldir.2571:

I can once I get home but ill tell you right now, if the difference in stats is whats going to convince you to craft an ascended set it won’t, the difference is miniscule and the only reason ascended armor is there is for a treadmill.

Thanks please do. A factual number would be able to put my mind at ease, rather than people just saying 5% with no evidence of how they came to that number.

Does any one know or can link the mathematical difference in stats of a character wearing full ascended vs full exotics (incuding base stats of the character, not just the difference in gear numbers) I’ve searched and searched and I can only seem to find heresay, with no actual figures. And I suck at math…

Please post pics of total stat difference if you can. Would really appreciate it.

Yes, there is more grind now.

Stopped caring the moment I discovered tree people.

Gamgee.8612:

Bran.7425:

Gamgee.8612:

I listed the source so people could criticize it, it’s not like it’s a reliable one. I have no idea if these are real or not. What really gave it away when I read it was the HS regen nerfed with 8% without the active being upped. However, these changes will most likely come into effect. Maybe not this patch, but soon. And we will have to deal with it. Just a sneakpeak on what we will become.

That reduction on the passive without the active being adjusted is far from the giveaway there as I really doubt they have found a balance change that would make using the signets active worth-while.

They said, citation marks: “We will NOT reduce the PASSIVE REGEN UNTIL we hade REWORKED THE ACTIVE.” Can’t remember where, but I’m pretty sure it was in the “future patch notes” they release a while ago, might have been stated in a podcast. Since it hasn’t in this patch it’s the only definitive thing that gives it away really.

ArenaNet says a lot of things… They also said there would be no gear grind…

So ascended gear in sPvP?

Probably adding vertical progression to sPvP.

Aye! Remove this terribly designed map from the game.

I suggest you wait until the next balance patch because warriors are going to get hit pretty hard with the nerf bat.

GW2 PvP focused? No dueling, no open world PvP server, only one game mode for sPvP, forced crafting to reliably obtain best in slot gear to use in WvW… and you call this PvP focused? I call it PvP fail!

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Joonks.7501:

The patch notes are fake. There’s a sticky in the prof balance forum.

All leaked patch notes to date have been correct.

But ArenaNet said they’re fake… ArenaNet wouldn’t lie to us now would they?

Time to re-roll engineer.

Please nerf warrior back to being unviable in PvP. I don’t want to learn to play, I just want to beat them easy again!

tigirius.9014:

Aioros.4862:

Nikaido.3457:

Aioros.4862:

Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?

In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.

The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.

Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.

Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.

All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.

Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.

“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.
Then the worst offender, WvW, you deal more damage, take less and you’ll be against many many people who will be in full exotic gear because the grind is so ridiculous to some it’s just not possible to get there (my case), or because they got tired of their mains and want to go on alts, or because they want to try new builds.

Exactly. Aioros. It is so ridiculous. Some people were saying it would take them 10 months. And then there’s the cost of doing 2 weapons where classes use mainhand offhand combos who have to farm twice as much all for the ability to be stronger in places that this gear wasn’t supposed to be for. It was originally meant for Fractals for AR.

I also find it funny that people often call this vertical progression when in fact it’s a grind. It’s the very thing they said they wouldn’t do with the game, turn it into a grind for gear where everything is so ridiculously out of reach or you spend all your time trying to get the gear you need to compete.

To me it’s bad in the sense that here we are with patches that are supposed to be all about the story. Well most people probably won’t be enjoying the story because they’ll be too busy grinding away trying to get the mats (especially in cases where they do actually play WvW which is where this gear does give an advantage). So which do they want do they want people to constantly think about gear when they login or do they want people to think about the story and enjoy the content without a care in the world about gear?

That’s my question. And if indeed they do want people who perform better in dungeons/fractals why aren’t the benefits of having Ascended gear limited to solely dungeon/fractal purposes? why don’t the stats increase only when you enter the dungeons/fractals or why don’t they decrease/become unusable when you go to WvW?

A massive grind for a tiny reward. Bad idea is bad.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

As being someone who currently and for the last 6 months or so has played casually 1-2 hours a day tops I’ve had my ascended set since the 2nd day it came out and if it makes anyone feel any better I see little to no difference in anything at all… I think people just really blow the “advantage” aspect out of proportion. Its just a big material sink… I could almost argue people who don’t make ascended armor have an advantage because they all possibly have 700 more gold than I do now…. which is no more ridiculous of a statement than “ascended armor ruined the game for me”….

Cool story bro. I have a flying dragon mount.

Raine.1394:

jheryn.8390:

Raine.1394:

jheryn.8390:

Raine.1394:

jheryn.8390:

Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.

My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.

I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.

Sure, I’d be glad to show you where the ‘other’ VP is. In the AMA Chris W said: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. And a power curve is a positive relationship between time and power. As time progresses, the power level of the game increases. They said at the time that they had no immediate plans for an additional tier and would carry VP forward through infusions. So, VP is currently in the game—that’s the problem. And, it will be a problem until it’s removed.

I was asking for you to tell ME where other vertical progression in the game is. I can see it. I was just saying, that people get off the ascended items gripe train. It is a done deal. It is in game. If you want to complain about VP, then do it with things that are not implemented and here to stay. The ascended items threads are broken records.

Again, I have no issue with Ascended gear and don’t believe I have mentioned it as a problem, per se, anywhere. The title of the thread is “To ppl that asked for vertical progression”. I was addressing vertical progression. Many people are confused about the actual issue. It’s not Ascended gear, Ascended is just is stage 1 of VP and stage 2 of the power level of the game.

So, many people complain about Ascended gear because they don’t understand the actual issue. I agree with you; Ascended is here to stay. We should not be complaining about Ascended gear; we should be complaining about vertical progression—which is also here to stay unless they decide to remove it.

I don’t have a problem with ascended gear either. But the way to aquire ascended gear is way too grindy and not acceptable. Being forced to craft is not okay.

judeobscure.2537:

I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch. Anyway, this is ancient history but here’s Mike O’Brien in the AMA he did after launch & the announcement of Ascended gear…

“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.” – Mike O’Brien, Nov. 2012

for the question he was responding to and for the rest of his response:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/c77b01k

for the rest of the AMA:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

“Why 250 mats? That’s really core here. It’s fine to say that non-cosmetic VP isn’t supposed to be grindy or outside the reach of normal players, but then we price some new items at 250 ectos with no other ways to get them, and it’s hard to interpret it as other than that. That’s a mistake. The design team has committed to fixing that.

~ MO"

Lol, “The design team committed to fixing that” a year later, still not fixed.

So committed!

Funkybacon.2635:

hellsmachine.4085:

Well GW2 was supposed to be the MMORPG that broke the chains, changed the rules and shifted paradigm of the MMORPG genre.

To quote Steve Jobs “You can’t look at the competition and say we’re going to
do it better. You’ve got to say we’re going to do it different.”

That should have been the mantra that Anet lived by.

Isn’t that exactly what they did on many levels?

That’s how it began, yes. But somewhere along the lines they thought adding a massive gear grind only reliably obtainable through crafting was a good idea.

If I’m going to do the whole gear grind thing, I’d rather be playing other games that know how to do it right. EG: Gear rewards through PVP. And that’s what I’m currently doing.

Bubbles.1047:

Character advancement has been one of the basic elements of RPGs ever since these games existed, on pen and paper. I’m sorry to say, but if you don’t like vertical progression, this entire genre of games is only going to give you grief. Yeah, that’s right, a lot of people in this thread kept arguing over what an MMO is, but forgot that this is an MMORPG.

On a side note, calling people names, claiming that you can’t help them and ignoring them after you lose an argument to them, doesn’t help your case.

Who are you refering to?

Vertical progression is in all games, even in Mario bros, you eat a mushroom and you literally grow vertically. I’m not against vertical progression. I’m against vertical progression through grind. If I could have fit that in the headline I would have.

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

verb
verb: demand; 3rd person present: demands; past tense: demanded; past participle: demanded; gerund or present participle: demanding

1.
ask authoritatively or brusquely.
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
synonyms: order to, command to, tell to, call on to, enjoin to, urge to; More
literarybid
“Harvey demanded that I tell him the truth”
ask, enquire, question, interrogate;
challenge
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
insist on having.
“an outraged public demanded retribution”
synonyms: call for, ask for, request, press for, push for, hold out for, clamour for, bay for; More
insist on, lay claim to, claim, requisition
“workers demanded wage increases”
insist on, stipulate, make a condition of, exact, impose;
expect, look for
“most of those who contacted us demanded complete anonymity”
require; need.
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”
synonyms: require, need, necessitate, call for, take, involve, entail; More
cry out for, want
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

Who is asking for it? Where are they? You are using a circular argument. " If someone made it, it would be popular; it’s not popular because no one has made it"

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

No offense but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Either that or you are just trying to start an argument. So I’m just going to ignore you from now.

K thanks bye.

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=horizontal+progression

There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.

Yes, i agree there are opinions….

1.There are those that want vertical progression.

2.There are those that don’t want VP

3.And there are those that don’t care.

I’m not asking for them to remove it from this game I am simply asking for someone to make a new game without it.

Just because YOU don’t want something, doesn’t mean many others don’t.

This doesn’t effect you so calm down.

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games, is because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale as GW2. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

Deadcell.9052:

I am ok with vertical progression as long as there is a reason for it and it is earned through meaningful, interesting, and skillful ways. Gw2 there is no reason for Ascended, none of the content warrants a higher statistical tier, even in Fractals they could of easily accomplished the necessary agony resist through sigils and runes. The game was not designed for V.I, and Ascended was implemented in the most boring non skillful way possible, they just added a heavy grind for the sake of grinding. Bottom line is if you want a game that offers V.I just about every other MMO on the market does it much better, Gw2 was supposed to break away from the traditional MMO design, its sad that the majority of MMO’ers these day only know the WoW model and are unable to adapt to something different, and unfortunately forced an unnecessary change to Gw2’s design.

I feel Gw2 would have been just fine if they just stuck to what they originally advertised and stayed the course, but we will never know now, they had to choose between a player base who accepted for what Gw2 was and a base that could not, they chose the ones who could not. Only time will tell if it was the right decision.

I hear you and feel exactly the same way. It’s not vertical progression I hate so much as grinding for it.

There’s many reasons that I won’t bother with Wildstar. Might try it when it goes FTP if I’m bored enough. It’s not the vertical progression that I dislike, it’s the grinding part. When a game forces me to kill the same thing over and over again it gets old fast. I don’t mind so much if it’s other players that I’m killing as other players are not as predictable.

lekyii.9856:

hellsmachine.4085:

Shadow Blade.1324:

hellsmachine.4085:

EDIT: What sPvP changes? Can you link them please?

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/phasing-out-pvp-glory/

basically as of later today glory and all spvp rewards will be gone with the exception of the new vendor and there will be a slight boost to silver earned for completing matches which will be used to purchase rewards when they eventually add a new reward system (who knows when)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Halp-Open-Match-Chests-Nao/first#post3652111

all glory boosters are also being removed so hope you didn’t buy any when they were selling them last week

Wow, that’s scary, I won’t be surprised if they add in game power advantages into the vendor. It starting to seem like NCSoft doesn’t care who they tick off, casuals, hard core, P2W players, you name it.

Just trying to inflate those share prices, so they can sell out and jump ship. Then shutdown the servers like they did with CoH.

Don’t think I’ll be wasting any more time with this game. Not even going to bother with Wildstar.

So you dont like gear progression but you would try wildstar!?

I said I’m not going to bother with it. How did you manage to misinterpret that?

Galen Grey.4709:

Arenanet tried an interesting approach by creating a vertical progression that’s truly optional.

What surprises me is how many people claim to hate vertical progression but are just unable to walk away from it.

I dont mean this to antagonize anyone but if one doesnt like PvP generally they simply dont play PvP they dont feel betrayed by the developer because they introduce optional PvP why is Ascended gear any different ?

As long as no content released requires Ascended gear, as long as everyone gets the same stats in sPvP and as long as WvW never becomes about small group player on player engagements it will really not have harmed anyone.

Players say they dont want Vertical progression but seems to me in truth they want one just one that can be reached very quickly.

If Ascended gear was capped to exotic stats in WvW, then I would agree that Ascended is optional. but it still gives a player an advantage, how large the advantage is irrelevant. An advantage is an advantage. If you want to be the best you can be in WvW it requires best gear and the best gear is Ascended.

Well I can understand why some of you are defending Vertical Progression, but believe it or not there is a demand for an MMORPG without grind.

Saying that players will leave without vertical progression, well there’s no evidence of that because as stated, such an MMORPG does not exist yet.

I believe there are many different ways to keep a player hooked, be it new skills, new maps, new PvP modes, new weapon types etc. These are just a few examples All it takes is some creativity and for some one to think outside of the box.

Progression doesn’t have to be vertical. And if you’re not interested in an MMORPG without it. That’s fine because I know that many people are.

Hopefully a developer somewhere is reading this right now and starts to make a new game all together as I believe it’s too late for GW2.

Saying an MMORPG needs grind because all MMORPGs have grind is a cop out.

yayuuu.9420:

hellsmachine.4085:

I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?

I’d really like to know if this was really worth damaging the game for me and many others.

Those that say Vertical Progression is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression?

If you want to know my opinion about ascended – I have left the game a month after release. I was able to get lvl 80 and full exotic armor in less than one month, then I did almost all of the dungeons and for another week I had no motication to do anything in the game. Now I came back partially with introduction of ascended weapon crafting and now I’m playing GW2 as my main MMORPG since they added asdended armor craft. Ascended brought me back to the game. I fully enjoy progression, it gives me a reason to play, to get my equipment maxed.

You have mentioned about games without vertical progression, like LOL, DOTA, TF2 – none of them is a MMORPG. It’s a completly different game, so comparing them to GW2 is not good.

On the other hand, GW1 was more like a singleplayer game for me. I have finished campaigns and left the game for few months, then I turned it on again, created a new character, finished campaigns and left it again, for good. There was no reason for me to do anything else in the game than story. It was a solid game, but I would compare it to games like Heretic 2, Drakan or Tomb Raider, just complete missions and game over.

Well GW2 was supposed to be the MMORPG that broke the chains, changed the rules and shifted paradigm of the MMORPG genre.

To quote Steve Jobs “You can’t look at the competition and say we’re going to
do it better. You’ve got to say we’re going to do it different.”

That should have been the mantra that Anet lived by.