Guild Wars 2

emon.1863:

Romek.4201:

what?
BUT ALL classes have some combofields or finishers they need and have to use

Correction: Necro aint using Combofields so much and it has non Finishers at all )

Staff 4 is a blast finisher and I believe the bone fiend detonation is as well…

Xsorus.2507:

Lets clear something up here

Toughness is the Counter to Power Damage
Vitality is the Counter to Condition Damage..

Quit asking for both stats to counter Conditions because you don’t want to bother with condition removal abilities

Except vitality is a crap counter to conditions… Case in point Warriors.

Pyroatheist.9031:

The torment is applied by the skill, not the block. This has 900 range. This is not a bug.

Unblockable skills, such as magnet, can not be blocked.

The torment is applied with a short delay after the block. If the person dodges when they see the block, the torment will miss. This is not a bug, it is counter play.

Oh man when torment lands though its GG for the following classes

1. Thieves
2. Eles
3. Rangers
4. Some Warrior Specs.

I have found it hardest to land on mesmers just because their is so much damage coming from alternate sources (clones and phantasms) that it usually winds up landing on a clone. However if it lands on a duelist I will take that too.
Guards don’t really eat up the torment that much. However it can reach 8k damage in total.

Favorite Mesmer Moment:
A few months back when Dragonbrand, Yak’s Bend, and Fort Aspenwood I believe were matched up in WvW we would have duels every now and then behind the windmill. There was this annoying ranger there with a Dreamer that kept on beating every one (he was either trap or BM) except for me. This was around the same time more people were trying out Pyro’s immortal build, which is what I was running.

It got to the point where people refused to duel me because “mesmers are OP and confusion is OP” and they didn’t." After awhile pyro also showed up and they started to jump us for about 5-10 min straight. Finally pure numbers won out, but I found it funny that someone who was unbeatable by everyone else (including other mesmers) called my spec OP just because he couldn’t steamroll through it.

XRay.1920:

jportell.2197:

XRay.1920:

shattered conditions is unreliable junk -.-

Not really… guaranteed 3 conditions every shatter… Seems pretty sweet to me. I love mesmers and I hate when they get nerfed but this is one spec that is OP. And any Mesmer that cant at admit it… well

Any mesmer that can’t see why shattered conditions isn’t as good in practice as on paper… well… and it seems to me that you don’t even know the mechanic of the trait….

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shattered_Conditions

I know several mesmers that run phantasm specs that take this trait. It is good team support and good for removing conditions in a class that has sub par condi removal. Could we use better traits further down or in our heal skills absolutely. Also AOE condi spam is OP as all hell so when someone says the only way to beat something OP is to use another something OP that’s just kinda backwards. And if it isn’t good then why did so many people just go 30 deep into inspiration after the illusionist celerity nerf on their phantasm spec. Empowered illusions #3 in domination just needs removed. It is a relic from when clones would do some damage and not has no purpose other than making one Mesmer build OP as all hell.

XRay.1920:

shattered conditions is unreliable junk -.-

Not really… guaranteed 3 conditions every shatter… Seems pretty sweet to me. I love mesmers and I hate when they get nerfed but this is one spec that is OP. And any Mesmer that cant at admit it… well

XRay.1920:

your statement about 1v1 is valid for shatter mesmers aswell, which is atm so strong that there’s no point in playing anything else in pvp. if you nerf phantasm builds, then mesmers in pve get hit badly even more than they had already been hit with the last patch. So before blurting something out, think a little bit.

Not really shatter mesmers are hard countered by condi builds. Phantasm mesmers now 10/30/0/30/0 thanks to the iCelerity nerf can get shattered conditions and they are in the best trait line for dealing with conditions. So no the same thing can not be said for shatter mesmers.

XRay.1920:

jportell.2197:

Phantasm builds pretty much wreck everyone in a 1v1 situation. It is likely the only Mesmer build that is in actual need of a nerf. Sad and sorry but true.

no, go away.

So what absolutely wrecks a phantasm Mesmer in a 1v1 situation?

Phantasm builds pretty much wreck everyone in a 1v1 situation. It is likely the only Mesmer build that is in actual need of a nerf. Sad and sorry but true.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

I’ll be the first to say: you’re wrong and l2p. sPvP meta is condition heavy. Learn and adapt.

Adapt… Lets put it this way. Currently one class dominates all at the manipulation of conditions. They did this before the 25th of June, however with the new patch and their very good buffs they have just become over the top. They needed survivability buffs not more condition damage. Right now there is almost no hope for a zerk build to counter a condition necro.

I have used this build in tourneys and duels I swap pistol for sword however I must say I approve. The number of conditions stacked on AOE melee spammers is ridic

Only some did you not see how TP steamrolled through all opposition because of 2 necros (they said so) with absolutely no bunker that should be a huge hint hint also the trams they faced generally had a bunker guard/ele both of which have some of the best Condi removal in the game… Condition cleave is the meta right now mate its sad but true.

Kilger.5490:

loseridoit.2756:

@jportell

there is no point arguing against them. Many Necros do not understand the deficiency with other classes condition removal. Many of them dont seem to play other classes to see why necros are viewed OP.

“Deficiency” is a strong word. Conditions arent supposed to be removed too easily, else whats the point. However necros are exceptionally strong at it, conditions are our toys more than anything.

Mind you every alt I play has several means to remove conditions, but thats how I roll. And yea theres always melandrus + lemongrass if you are really stuck and dont mind losing a bunch of dps in your build.

See that’s what is messed up about the situation mesmers have to choose either or. Most classes (even warriors lol) can choose both. I would say a good start to helping mesmers with condi removal is to get it in our heal skill.

Also the amount of condition application vs. removal is what bugs me (and others.) The ease of application vs the ease of removal is beyond unbalanced. Right now if teams want to have a competitive edge they need to have the best condition spamming vs. the enemy. That is what I really don’t like at all.

Andele.1306:

jportell.2197:

Andele.1306:

I can have condi removal on blood fiend….
Also The initial mantra cast (the channel to create the charges) removes one (might be patched out but i know it used to since it counts as “casting” a heal (just as on engies hkit swapping counts as “using a heal”) and last but not least, if you scroll up the page youll see me stating, no its not the optimal setup and mesmers are actually held into their optimal trait setup because its just dancing on the edge between stronger than usual and bloody op, but that still doesnt mean they dont have the means to remove condis if they wanna (unlike us for example that can at best get 1 more condi clear pre 6 seconds from traits).

Wow you are so far off base. No you do not remove a condition when you prep the mantra. That does not count as using your heal skill. I know as well as several other mesmers and the only thing that is “bloody OP” is necromancers in their current implementation. Sorry sir but Mesmer condition removal is laughable when compared to just about any other class in this game including a warrior. And also one more condi clear every six secons? More like one condition every 2 seconds. 5 minions and each one siphons a condition from you every 10s not to mention off hand dagger that transfers conditions and the staff 4 that transfers conditions. Are you really going to try to tell me that Mesmer condition removal is just so much more amazing then a necromancers?

Mhhhm, totally correct, you are so brilliant thatyou know that every necromancer is running minions and they are just as viable kittenter builds and that both dagger 4 and staff 4 cannot be dodge, a giant swarm of flies and black swirly animations that summon a big red circle with a snake ontop while the necro gets a scythe are totally instant skills.
.

So you are saying that Mesmer has better condi removal. Well here are weapon skills that necros have that remove/transfer conditions:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm (Limited Number)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark

Here are the necro healing skills that remove conditions:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions

Necro Utility skills that remove conditions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague_Signet
Stun Break Transfers all conditions to Foe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Power
Also A stun Break plus grants stability

This is base without the necro using any trait points that focus condition removal…

Now Mesmer weapon skills that remove/transfer conditions:
…. ….. ……
Mesmer Healing Skills that remove conditions:
…… …… ……
Mesmer Utility Skills that remove conditions:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Thievery
Only three… Unreliable and misses a lot plus the cooldown is 45 seconds. How long is the deathly swarm cooldown? Oh yeah almost half of that.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Disenchanter
Not as bad as many mesmers believe actually our best bet for removing conditions mostly. However like most phantasms it can be blinded/invulned plus it has a very very obvious cast animation and a long cast time. Not going to be taken in any shatter build which most teams refuse to allow a non shatter Mesmer.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Null_Field
Second most popular option not instant cast and unlike the description says it doesn’t immediately remove all boons and all conditions (Have tested this on a guard using Save Yourselves)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Cleanse
Instant removal of a total of 4 conditions decent cooldown. Whopping 3s prep time

Now while we have more skills that remove conditions the amount of conditions removed in each skill has a set number. Necros removal/transfer skills are generally all… This is before we even start to talk about trait points. Please do not even attempt to make it seem that a necromancer has garbage condi removal compared to mesmers. And while a necro may not be a minionmancer in tourneys it is more viable than a anti condition Mesmer build by a long stretch.

Master of Timespace.2548:

For instance, you could have mentioned how to use the scepter effectively, using several conditions on clone death to wrack up conditions quickly while also providing a quick and constant resource of clones.

But this is just pure bull kitten as well. In any REAL fight you do NOT have time to use scepter auto attack.

Which needs addressed. Scepter AA needs a faster cast time!

Manuhell.2759:

What about using some CC skill before he gets downed or a launch after he’s downed? I mean, you can see him tossing it.
That skill had got quite a bunch of counters. Just learn to play.

^THIS!!!!!!!! My ele buddy and I were able to cc him around once he was downed and we got him out of his little revive circle.
Number one it requires a lot for the engi to time using this.
Number two once he is down poison works against it as well as straight DPS. If you don’t have the DPS I can think of all classes that have a cc such as a pull or a knockback….
Work as a team and if you don’t have the tools to fight against an engi self res then it doesn’t mean its OP it just means they were prepared.

silentnight warrior.2714:

jportell.2197:

My opinion of what Warrior Rampage should do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsUCRcK7QYc

Now that would be OP… lol

At least people can be like “kitten he is in rampage. Run kittenes run!”

My opinion of what Warrior Rampage should do

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

Fenrir.5493:

jportell.2197:

Jesiah.2457:

I’d be more worried about them nerfing longbow though it is vastly underrepresented.

Out of the dozens of matches I have played since the patch. The one thing that I see more and more warriors doing is using longbow and its really annoying.

Why?, because you dont want warriors to do anything to you and just faceroll them forever dont you?.

No. Because the longbow warrior is adding more to the mindless AOE spam that is dominating the meta. I have fought and respect several good warriors. But long bow and sword/sword bleed warriors with the long bow can stack bleeds that are just as annoying and harder to clear than hgh engi/necros spamming their conditions. This is why the longbow warriors are annoying. They are adding to a current problem. Hammer warriors are great they are amazing CC’ers

This has got to be an elaborate troll or a very self-centered person.

Its not the warrior alone. Its a combination of AOE condition spamming from several classes. The only ones that are really having a hard time dishing out AOE conditions as well as others are Ele (churning earth is possibly the most dodgeable skill in the game), Mesmer, Guardian, and the average thief build. Bleed thieves are annoying but not as present as Longbow and sword/sword warriors.

It isn’t warriors that are bugging me its the condition spam from several classes…

Fenrir.5493:

jportell.2197:

Jesiah.2457:

I’d be more worried about them nerfing longbow though it is vastly underrepresented.

Out of the dozens of matches I have played since the patch. The one thing that I see more and more warriors doing is using longbow and its really annoying.

Why?, because you dont want warriors to do anything to you and just faceroll them forever dont you?.

No. Because the longbow warrior is adding more to the mindless AOE spam that is dominating the meta. I have fought and respect several good warriors. But long bow and sword/sword bleed warriors with the long bow can stack bleeds that are just as annoying and harder to clear than hgh engi/necros spamming their conditions. This is why the longbow warriors are annoying. They are adding to a current problem. Hammer warriors are great they are amazing CC’ers

Jesiah.2457:

I’d be more worried about them nerfing longbow though it is vastly underrepresented.

Out of the dozens of matches I have played since the patch. The one thing that I see more and more warriors doing is using longbow and its really annoying.

Narsil.6579:

jportell.2197:

You are taking PU with only one stealth skill? Why? You could either take another stealth skill or two to get more protection uptime. Or you could build around something else… PU isn’t like shatters where it is easy to work with to begin with by going 30 deep. Going for PU means that you are likely going to make your entire build revolve around it… It doesn’t seem like you are here just an observation. If you really want to capitalize on Prismatic understanding it pretty much means that you should go after all the stealth skills at our disposal.

with the PU, it heavily does have to rely on a all stealth, which is with some tests being ran, it helps to be both offensive and defensive in and out of stealth, dueling and taking camps, soloing camps it has no problems, although one thing it suffers from is lack of extra abilities you give up with the 30 into Chaos, One upside to this build is if you use PU, the boons you will gain stealthed are insane, paired with a staff it is awesome, as well as the hidden flame aspect = torch + sword makes a great combo to keep foes guessing, so I am working on either a full uptime build, 20 (2/9)20 (4/10)30 (5/8/12) which makes it so that ur always popping out clones, they give off conditions when killed etc, problem is there is no cd for pistol if you go into this and the only thing suffering is you giving up Inspiration trait line for that torch skill, so working on a new build i went, Hidden flame completely which is condition damage and crit damage based

Taking a 20/20/30/0/0 build is great for the clone spam and the reduced CD on the torch but I feel like you don’t really need the CD on torch. In fact most players I know that run a build with PU don’t take the traited torch. I made a build pre PU buff that could get 100% protection uptime and now its even better but you need boon duration runes/protection duration runes to achieve it taking the 20 from domination and putting it into inspiration gives you a few options
1. Reduced CD on glamour (More stealth uptime=more boons!)
2. Options for more condition removal (Menders Purity+ the 2 MORS) and using mantras is more feasible in duels simply because usually duels do not have the interrupt spam that dominates team fights.
3. Better Team utility. See reduced glamour CD, this is also good for things like portal (PvP/WvW) and Feed back which is amazing in wvw as well.

Or you cold take the 20 from Domination and put it into illusions for one big reason.
Double the damage from staff. There are a few builds I know of that are 0/20/30/0/20 and they are absolutely insane with the amount of condition damage they can do. Currently the meta is dominated by condition spam which is an area we lack however taking illusionary elasticity in a PU build gives you a two fold bonus better condition damage while still maintaining very high survivability.

I am by no means saying your build is garbage and I think there are few Mesmer builds that actually fall into that category. I like when players take a trait and try to make their build work around it.

Ps another option if you were taking the reduced torch CD condi removal Pdisenchanter is also amazing for that in small team fights/solo roam.

Andele.1306:

I can have condi removal on blood fiend….
Also The initial mantra cast (the channel to create the charges) removes one (might be patched out but i know it used to since it counts as “casting” a heal (just as on engies hkit swapping counts as “using a heal”) and last but not least, if you scroll up the page youll see me stating, no its not the optimal setup and mesmers are actually held into their optimal trait setup because its just dancing on the edge between stronger than usual and bloody op, but that still doesnt mean they dont have the means to remove condis if they wanna (unlike us for example that can at best get 1 more condi clear pre 6 seconds from traits).

Wow you are so far off base. No you do not remove a condition when you prep the mantra. That does not count as using your heal skill. I know as well as several other mesmers and the only thing that is “bloody OP” is necromancers in their current implementation. Sorry sir but Mesmer condition removal is laughable when compared to just about any other class in this game including a warrior. And also one more condi clear every six secons? More like one condition every 2 seconds. 5 minions and each one siphons a condition from you every 10s not to mention off hand dagger that transfers conditions and the staff 4 that transfers conditions. Are you really going to try to tell me that Mesmer condition removal is just so much more amazing then a necromancers?

Andele.1306:

jportell.2197:

Mesmer heals that remove conditons…..
………
……… OH yeah none.

Necros needed love this patch but not in the way they got it. they needed survivability not more damage. If you want to gripe about Mesmer condition removal be my guest but any competent player will laugh their hats off.

You know if a mesmer wants, he can get: condi off shatter, condi off each heal cast (yes all 3 of the mantras casts count), condi off torch use (making the useless magus a weaker engie toolkit heal turret and the prestiege even stronger) and a signet/distortion combo to be immune for 1 second each time they cast a signet to remova a condi. Honestly anyone who thinks the 10 points for condi off on heal (with reflect) aint worth it on a mesmer in pve probably also thinks greater marks isnt needed in pvp (it isnt in pve and wvwvw, but it is mantatory in pvp for staff users).

Wait so you are saying that a Mesmer can take harmonious mantras with cleansing conflagration which is 30 into domination… (40 pts left) Blurred inscriptions (20 into dueling) (20pts left) Cleansing Inscriptions (20 into Chaos) (0 pts left).

But wait we aren’t done! You are also saying that the Mesmer is also going 30 into inspiration! Because you are saying they will take shattered conditions along with menders purity and why not lets let em get restorative mantras cuz why the hell not rigtht?! So a Mesmer has to use 100 points (impossible btw) to get this amazing condition removal. See the thing is to match any necromancer condi removal mesmers have to sacrifice a lot of either
A. Basic Survivability
B. Most Damage
C. Team Utility

Because all mesmers can run a 30/20/20/30/0 build with no deceptive evasion and we are so special that ANet decided to give us an extra 30 trait points to spend….

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Because each minion transfers every 10s So correct me if I am wrong but a 5 minion necromancer is losing conditions every 2s easily…

Yeah, each minion.
But why do you want that extra minion over Consume Conditions?
It heals way less and doesn’t remove all conditions.

About WoB, it isn’t even worth in group fight.
Healing Spring is worthy in group fights, Water Fields are worth in group fights, Healing Rain is worty in group fights.
A skill which heals less then regeneration, takes 40s to recharge, doesn’t provide a water field and doesn’t remove conditions isn’t worthy in group fights.

Because each minions also siphon health to you. How many minion mancers do you see that DON’T have consume conditions? And I am not tarking about Well of blood I am talking about mark of blood which is Staff 2…

PS my main is not a necro but just going off observations….

You are taking PU with only one stealth skill? Why? You could either take another stealth skill or two to get more protection uptime. Or you could build around something else… PU isn’t like shatters where it is easy to work with to begin with by going 30 deep. Going for PU means that you are likely going to make your entire build revolve around it… It doesn’t seem like you are here just an observation. If you really want to capitalize on Prismatic understanding it pretty much means that you should go after all the stealth skills at our disposal.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

A 5 minionmancer bunker may take BF over it for one reason (trait where minions transfer conditions from you.

Nope.
Why would you get 1 condition removed every 10s over all conditions removed and huge heal?

Because each minion transfers every 10s So correct me if I am wrong but a 5 minion necromancer is losing conditions every 2s easily…

HiSaZuL.2843:

Yep I just realized why I always felt mesmers spam heals like there is no tomorrow. Highest heal cd 20 seconds… shortest 10 seconds. Really?

Still find it amusing that our corrupt boon is apparently too OP… but mesmer nullfield is not.

Mesmer heals that remove conditons…..
………
……… OH yeah none.
Mesmer heal that is on a 10s CD has a 2.75s charge and even when activated doesn’t heal for much.
Nullfield only nullifys IE doesn’t really do damage to you and doesn’t make everything you gave the Mesmer boons.
Mesmer illusions are their only source of damage outside of shatters. The scepter cooldown if you look doesn’t decrease the CD of skill 2 if the attack is blocked so the trait is only good for condition damage builds. But wait mesmers can get more condition damage if they just go 20 deep into the next line and take illusionary elasticity. Mesmers don’t really spam heals. Also if specced right a necro can siphon health. Oh and lets not forget the Mark of Blood that is 1,4k regen on a 8s cooldown I believe. Oh and how many of your number 2 skills are on a CD of higher than 10s untraited? Mesmer has one OP build and that is the phantasm build.

Necros needed love this patch but not in the way they got it. they needed survivability not more damage. If you want to gripe about Mesmer condition removal be my guest but any competent player will laugh their hats off.

sorrow.2364:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Sorry for spaz-replying.

I disagree with the premise of your argument “this skill is that strong to the point it overshadows both the other heals.” To me, Consume Conditions, is as it should be, for self-healing. As such, I do not see a need for CC to be nerfed and therefore none of the other changes are needed. (Ok…Deathly Invigoration could use a boost.)

Try it for yourself.
There is no reasong to pick either Blood Fiend or Well of Blood over Consume Condition in any situation, despite the fact that both those skills are far from weak.

Try to run Minions or Wells and tell me which healing skill you would pick :P

Consume Conditions is pretty much a complete cleanse and heal. It isn’t rare that you get healed for 8k+ HP by that.
There is too much in a single skill that not having it in your bar is a self-nerf, it is essentially an all-in-one healing skill, which is its main issue. It kills build variety that you’re forced to pick Consume Conditions because it is a must in every situation.

A 5 minionmancer bunker may take BF over it for one reason (trait where minions transfer conditions from you.

Right now a bunker guard can be a liability to a team. Especially if the opposition is running two necros. What I normally see happen is the guard will use SYS to get rid of one Sig of spite and but the other necro will use theirs and then they use Epidemic and its just GG after that. In all honesty though the amount of AOE condition damage happening right now is ruining the game play.

Also torment for mesmers is on scepter 2 which is not the standard Mesmer MH weapon. And we only get torment off if we block an attack are not blinded etc.

djtool.8372:

Do you only want “top tier” builds or can fun ones be submitted?

Mesmer: techniques and trickery or the technique of trickery

I would be willing to bet fun ones are more than welcome

Kersic.6718:

jportell.2197:

UPDATE:
So we are all bummed about the illusionist celerity nerf right? Righttttt…. Mesmers are sooo screwed now we have noo viable builds.
Blurred frenzy that was a stupid shot too. We are sooo done now… ohhh nooo… Well do I have some news for you guys!!!! The protection master build has been updated! And it is even better thanks to the Prismatic understanding buff!
New build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAW7fl4zKqHWTkGb9IipHBHyBcnUwcOXJFz2FC-TsAg2CrI2RBkDIzOyusdNaY1w+DA

Traits: 0/20/30/20/0
Dueling: Desperate Decoy/Deceptive Evasion
Chaos: Debilitating dissipation (or Illusion of defense), Chaotic dampening, and PRISMATIC UNDERSTANDING!
Inspiration: Glamour Mastery and. Restorative Mantras!

Shamans or Cleric Ammy depending on which way you wanna go.
Staff and Scepter/Torch
Staff cuz DUH!
Scepter because torment is actually nice
Torch cuz BOONS!!!!!
Skills Mantra Of Recovery, Decoy, Veil, Mantra of Resolve

With the new buff to PU. This build is a million times more tanky with much longer protection duration than before deleting the need for any signet which gives better condi removal.

runes are still all the same and it is an ungodly uptime now. 45+ seconds.

The only real weakness here is an s/d thief. Even with Tons of evasion… You normally can’t out dodge their stupid LS… But that is a glaring design flaw and hopefully will be adjusted

Would this be the equivalent updated post 6/25 patch non-Ascended PVE build? (if Grove were swapped for Monk)

Yeah that would be perfect for things like dungeons. Restorative mantras is amazing in dungeons. You do almost no damage but no one complains about it because you will be the first person they have ran with that out boon supports a guard.

djtool.8372:

I finally got around to giving PU a test run today but for only less than an hour. I’m curious if you’re pre-loading your buffs (spamming your invis’s before engagements). I gave it a shot but couldn’t play long enough before leaving for the weekend to evaluate.

I do sometimes in pve you can just spam it to keep em up permanently in wvw/pvp you wanna save em some what because you never know when you will actually need them. So if you are fighting a guard on a point you can out condition damage him with the staff and disenchanter. If you are fighting a necro engi combo you need the invis’s to peel because not only will you lose the point you will also die giving them extra points.

I got a buddy that tourneys with nothing but the GS and staff he wrecks face. Not sure what his build is though.

hharry.1967:

jportell.2197:

hharry.1967:

Daze also counts as a cc (breaks with stun breakers) and also as a condition (breaks with condi clear). Would it mean it will be changed just like fear? I actually like the idea how them both (being able to be cleared both ways) being knock downs the only REAL stun.

Except daze can’t be cleared by condi cleanse that isn’t also a stunbreaker.

You sure? Im sure i cleanse it with a few non stun breakers….

Are they instant cast skills? If so I can see it. But other skills that aren’t instant cast but condi cleanses do not clear the stun of this I am sure (Main is a Mesmer once we get locked down they toss us around like rag dolls)

hharry.1967:

Daze also counts as a cc (breaks with stun breakers) and also as a condition (breaks with condi clear). Would it mean it will be changed just like fear? I actually like the idea how them both (being able to be cleared both ways) being knock downs the only REAL stun.

Except daze can’t be cleared by condi cleanse that isn’t also a stunbreaker.

I would actually rather have fear stay as a CC and no longer as a damaging condition. This would of course require a rework to terror but it would overall be good for a community. People usually run one stunbreak and one condi cleanse on their bar (some classes are lucky for it to be both) However having fear plus other conditions on you if you are one of the unlucky classes that doesn’t get a stunbreak and condi cleanse in one are going to down way faster thanks to the way fear operates now.

Hey chaos love what youre doing with this guide man and yeah the Mesmer community is great!

Revelations.3154:

I find your ignorance amusing…

Scepter 1 + Scepter 2 = Mirrored Images

That’s a freebie…You’re Welcome.

A message from Revelations:

Scepter is a Mesmer’s Best Control Weapon how you want to define “Control” is up to you and your proficiency and knowledge of the Mesmer Profession.

If you want a hint look at the parallels between Scepter and Main hand Sword… Heh heh heh…. If by now you see what I see then you know the beauty of Scepter…

That is all.

Scepter is great. With the scepter 2 buff I am actually taking it over sword.
However for control no, for that we have:

Focus, pistol, GS, MH/OH sword , and Staff… This game defines control by moves that stop skills or halt movement. Scepter has none of that. Your definition of control here is the irrelevant thing.

Scepter 1 spam takes way longer to charge up than mirror images.
In any shatter build you can spawn a phantasm and 5 clones by the time scepter 1 is done snailing along to give you a clone.

While opinions of our weapons are great and welcome trying to make the scepter seem like anything more than a somewhat condition weapon and even more so saying it is our best control weapon well let me just say

TROLOLOLOL

Revelations.3154:

I find your ignorance amusing…

Scepter 1 + Scepter 2 = Mirrored Images

That’s a freebie…You’re Welcome.

A message from Revelations:

Scepter is a Mesmer’s Best Control Weapon how you want to define “Control” is up to you and your proficiency and knowledge of the Mesmer Profession.

If you want a hint look at the parallels between Scepter and Main hand Sword… Heh heh heh…. If by now you see what I see then you know the beauty of Scepter…

That is all.

Scepter is great. With the scepter 2 buff I am actually taking it over sword.
However for control no, for that we have:

Focus, pistol, GS, MH/OH sword , and Staff… This game defines control by moves that stop skills or halt movement. Scepter has none of that. Your definition of control here is the irrelevant thing.

Scepter 1 spam takes way longer to charge up than any mirror images.
In any shatter build you can spawn a phantasm and 5 clones by the time scepter 1 is done snailing along to give you a clone.

While opinions of our weapons are great and welcome trying to make the scepter seem like anything more than a somewhat condition weapon and even more so saying it is our best control weapon well let me just say

Fear is cleansed by condition cleanse and stun breaker because it is the only one that doubles as both… no other condition in this game is both cc and a condition that is damaging this is thanks to terror. It is like Mesmer interrupt (halting strike trait) or thief mug however it does way more damage than what should be granted for a trait like this especially considering how “spammable” it is compared to steal and the fact that Mesmer interrupts are a lot less reliable at actually getting the damage off….

So yes Fear should be cleared by both condition cleanse and stun breaks because it technically does both. And teleports are not affected by immobilize because usually when you teleport you cannot move using WASD still until the condition wears off. Test this with ranger binding roots and you will see what I mean if you teleport out unless you have cleansed the condition it is still on you for its duration.

Its been moved once doesnt need moved again.

Advent Leader.1083:

jportell.2197:

redslion.9675:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Yeh this trait is ridiculously bad design. Good design = fun for person to play with and against. Making somebody immune to certain builds is NOT fun at all. It is super lame. What next – a new 30 point trait which reads “Under 25% health you take no damage from mesmers”. lol. Ridiculous.

Unfun mechanics to protect players from other unfun mechanics.

^ It is not fun when you are feared over and over (necros can chain it pretty well) this is prolly one of the only builds that directly counters the way the new necro builds/FOTM players are operating there fore it is the last thing that needs nerfed

You know, if you hear this from someone who staunchly is against a certain engineer build, you kinda take a step back and revisit your argument, as an engineer traiting for that setup hits like a wet noodle, even if you can actually might stack him.

An engineer that takes Automated response hits like a wet noodle? Sure and that is fine. They still most likely have some decent condition damage which is also fine. This trait is not OP in that it forces teams to adjust their entire team composition or build one certain way just to make sure they don’t die (FOTM Necros/HGH Engis). It is one bunker build taking a trait that may help them survive. Becoming completely immune to conditions means that finally there is a hard counter to this AOE condi spam meta that is honestly what is ruining the game.

Nretep.2564:

@jportell
yes, of course it’d hurt builds. But if you’d move all traits into grandmaster, you’d hurt anyone as well. The question would be “what to move into master instead”. probably furious interruptions … better for interrupt builds, or “empowering mantras”, better for mantra burst builds.
But I understand that DE is essential for some builds … but then follows what carighan said … why are some traits so essential for mesmers? instead of just enhancing builds, it completely changes them …

Its not that it would only “hurt” some builds it would completely negate them and make the builds non existent. We are really hurt on pumping illusions out now for non shatter builds thanks to the IC nerf the only saving grace some builds have is DE. You move that you completely negate any hope those builds had of becoming viable with future patches/meta changes. And some traits are so essential for mesmers because some traits are so essential for almost all classes. It is like necro staff greater marks. Usually if a necro has a staff they are guaranteeing they take this trait. If non-phantasm mesmers (condition builds for instance) don’t take this trait they lose a ton of sustain. A nerf to DE would make a condition Mesmer (Palu’s 0/20/30/0/20) completely obsolete because the DPS gets cut in half without illusionary elasticity and the build has to reliably pump out clones through DE for the debilitating dissipation. It’s like ele builds they are severely limited because if you don’t go 30 into arcana then you are hurting yourself. Ele evasive arcana has an ICD because its effects are extremely powerful more so than a mes especially when they are in water.

Do you see why even mentioning another nerf to mesmers especially DE is just very frustrating especially after seeing us get major nerfs patch after patch after patch. I think we have seen enough of those for now.

Nretep.2564:

I got 30 in dueling but didn’t choose DE (anymore).

DE is a very powerful skill (trait). Unlike most other classes’ dodge skills it has no CD. Due to that it would almost be appropriate to move it into higher ranks of traits.

It would hurt Shatter builds, which were buffed in last patch. But it wouldn’t matter for phantasm builds, which were nerfed in last patch.

But it would hurt so many other builds that are neither phantasm nor shatter. Clone on death people only go max of 25 into dueling for confusing combatants. So usually a clone on death Mesmer is something like 10/25/10/0/25 for iCelerity (since it was nerfed YAY for that right?!) Now those people running clone on death traits would be kinda screwed losing either one of their clone on death conditions or their reduced cooldown on summoning illusions. Seriously we have been nerfed way too hard as of late and DE was nerfed already it used to be minor (like almost all other on dodge traits except ele/necro off the top of my head)
Also thief on dodge (all three of them=no ICD)
Guard on Dodge=No ICD
Engi on Dodge=No ICD….

Seriously so many other classes have no ICD on their dodge traits. Why is this conversation going on. Also DE moved higher into dueling would nerf any sort of interrupt build we have (bountiful etc) which just got buffed.

wads.5730:

it doesnt really change the shatter build much. youd have to go 10/30/0/0/30

you lose the boon stripping abilities, but gain an extra trait in dueling to use.

possibly worth it.

And other builds that run some clone on death traits? Or ones that spec defensively while still taking it. Not worth it at all. If someone wants to go 10/30/0/0/30 they can do it now and get the extra prec. Nerfing DE doesn’t need to happen to have people do it. Now this thread seriously needs closed :/

Just watched the SOTG… Nothing mentioned about doing something to the base cooldowns for illusion skills. Supcutie is a shatter Mesmer so his build was affected absolutely 0 by this nerf… It really sucks that ANET is pretty much forcing us to run shatter to maybe be viable. CDs are too long now because they were increased at a time when mesmers could take iCelerity with minimal impact on their build…. Now several builds are nerfed in terms of survivability (decoy) and in terms of damage (any weapon skills are bjorked unless traited now.)

Move to another class or quit game. The iCelerity nerf is good enough (too much IMO) moving DE to GM would just ruin almost every build (few builds go 30 into dueling.) We rely on pumping out illusions and the iCelerity nerf hurt that so DE needs to stay put.

DE used to be a minor master trait it was nerfed to be moved to a master major.

Dirame.8521:

jportell.2197:

redslion.9675:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Yeh this trait is ridiculously bad design. Good design = fun for person to play with and against. Making somebody immune to certain builds is NOT fun at all. It is super lame. What next – a new 30 point trait which reads “Under 25% health you take no damage from mesmers”. lol. Ridiculous.

Unfun mechanics to protect players from other unfun mechanics.

^ It is not fun when you are feared over and over (necros can chain it pretty well) this is prolly one of the only builds that directly counters the way the new necro builds/FOTM players are operating there fore it is the last thing that needs nerfed

No one is asking for the trait to be removed. I personally am asking for it to be toned down. Trust me, 5 seconds is enough time for an engie to turn a fight around. We don’t need Automated Response to last forever.

Seriously though, if anyone can come up with a good reason why Automated Response should remain the way it is other than “Necros are OP”, I’ll be all ears.

The fact that no-one complained about it until necros became OP and so far the only ones that seem to be griping about it are necros…. Seems like a pretty good reason to me.