Guild Wars 2

I don’t think you have to be a min/maxer to have a competent build or understanding of your class. You certainly don’t need to min/max to run the content in this game (besides spvp), but it works in your favor if you understand your class mechanics and what you can or can not do.

I don’t care how anyone plays, (unless they are a baddie and are in a dungeon with me and don’t listen to common sense advice), my only complaint is that the nerf was unnecessary. I can generally run around half armored and complete the content, but it’s no excuse to throw 20 percent damage nerfs around because thieves have problems with pets.

Senryi.4897:

killcannon.2576:

Senryi.4897:

killcannon.2576:

I disagree with the blanket nerf to pet damage for Rangers.

I still dislike that there is not enough separation between PvP balance and PvE balance.

I dislike that the idea of balance is to nerf to the lowest rung on the pole rather than picking a baseline of a working build and bringing the rest of the builds up to par.

In the blog post that talks about the balance changes, Jonathan Sharp articulates why boosting all the other classes would be a bad idea. I recommend reading through it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-skill-and-trait-changes/

Pass. Typical dev doubletalk because it’s too hard. Been seeing that excuse for over ten years….and that approach didn’t work then, and doesn’t work now. They remind me of Sisyphus.

I’m not saying buff the already stable builds, I’m saying bring up the other builds to be on par with the stable ones. In other words, LOGIC.

It would behoove you to read it, but I can understand why you wouldn’t. The general idea that you bring up (buff the weaker builder to be on par with the stronger ones) is a LOT more complicated and leads to “power creep” as described in the blog post.

So keeping player power down keeps content relevant (for PvE any way). I am not sure we could objectively prove either of our positions so we can agree to disagree.

It’s been proved beyond any shadows already. Take a look at any MMO from the past ten years, look at their attempts at “balance”, look at how they approached trying to do it, and watch how they fail miserably by using the exact same methods these guys preach.

Like I said, I don’t need to read it again, because I’ve been reading it for ten years. And it’s not a reason, it’s an excuse. It’s always easier to nerf stuff than actually try to balance. They have deadlines, and shareholders, and quotas.

I think you have the words “stable” and “overpowered” confused. Rangers were in no way, shape, or form overpowered (besides maybe the pet revive on down). The pets were finally almost actually good to go. They contributed, didn’t die too fast unless you let them, and were seeing some improvements. Then…BALANCE happened.

It was unnecessary. The time could have been used to bring other builds up to par with the baseline.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Because we’ve having fun playing together. Doing an hour dungeon run while having fun is superior to me to doing a fifteen minute dungeon run while having fun. My way, I stretch out my fun to one hour.

See now you’re just making up reasons to defend anet.

I’m not defending Anet at all. I’m saying that rangers aren’t as broken as people say they are EXCEPT in dungeons, where they were already broken. I’m saying that the changes haven’t changed anything I do in the game. That’s not defending Anet.

I do think the PvE pet damage should have been left alone, and only PvP damage should have been changed, but then, that’s just my opinion. I obviously don’t min/max so I don’t pay as much attention to the numbers.

But then there’s the other side of the argument. MOST people don’t min/max. Only a small percentage of the playerbase are min-maxers. Most players aren’t competitive PvE’ers. If I wanted to be competitive, I’d PvP more.

So this change really affects mostly dungeon runners, who play rangers, most of whom if they were playing with competitive people weren’t getting into groups already. I’m not sure what’s changed.

No I’m not defending Anet. I’m defending a play style.

Well, you don’t have to defend your play style, because I don’t see anyone attacking it.

You should play to have fun, whatever that may be for you or anyone else.

Senryi.4897:

killcannon.2576:

I disagree with the blanket nerf to pet damage for Rangers.

I still dislike that there is not enough separation between PvP balance and PvE balance.

I dislike that the idea of balance is to nerf to the lowest rung on the pole rather than picking a baseline of a working build and bringing the rest of the builds up to par.

In the blog post that talks about the balance changes, Jonathan Sharp articulates why boosting all the other classes would be a bad idea. I recommend reading through it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-skill-and-trait-changes/

Pass. Typical dev doubletalk because it’s too hard. Been seeing that excuse for over ten years….and that approach didn’t work then, and doesn’t work now. They remind me of Sisyphus.

I’m not saying buff the already stable builds, I’m saying bring up the other builds to be on par with the stable ones. In other words, LOGIC.

I disagree with the blanket nerf to pet damage for Rangers.

I still dislike that there is not enough separation between PvP balance and PvE balance.

I dislike that the idea of balance is to nerf to the lowest rung on the pole rather than picking a baseline of a working build and bringing the rest of the builds up to par.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Gee, I guess I can’t do the dungeons I did with my ranger now. They suck. /sarcasm

Rangers isn’t much worse off now in dungeons than they were before. Particularly because the best pets to use in dungeons for anyone who’s not running with a group of zerker warriors, are spiders, which are ranged.

It’s the old, omg I’m playing with people who are so interested in effiicency they don’t want me. And that hasn’t changed since before the patch. The elitists and speed runners didn’t want you a week ago and they don’t want you today.

And the rangers in my guild will still run with the guild, and they’ll still get the same groups.

So what exactly has changed for a ranger? Honestly, it’s not as much as people think. I’m not killing stuff significantly slower, and yes, I main a ranger.

Uh…why wouldn’t you run an efficient build? I mean I play how I want, but my builds are efficient for what they are. I really don’t imagine that people go around and build their trait lines for condition damage then wear Clerics armor…or do they?

This patch affecting the Ranger profession doesn’t really have anything to do with efficiency as much as blind stupidity. An almost across the board nerf to pet damage…compensated for by…..nothing. Apparently someone, somewhere thought pets were way overpowered. The beastmaster Ranger builds were anything but OP, personally I considered them more of a baseline that I would have liked to have seen the rest of the builds brought up to. Instead they were nerfed to the mediocrity of the rest of the builds.

The staff ele changes have been sorely needed for quite awhile, so grats to the balance team for that. But, seriously, wtf was with the ranger nerfs. It certainly wasn’t because Rangers are OP in pve, which leaves the blanket nerfs at the feet of PvP or WvW…which they are supposed to be separating.

I suppose someone didn’t get the memo.

And you’re right, they aren’t much worse off in dungeons now than before. They weren’t a valued member of a dungeon team before, and they still aren’t now.

I play to have fun…not to be efficient. When I worked, I was efficient as hell. I don’t need to be efficient in my down time.

I played a zerker warrior, I walked through stuff, didn’t find it fun and stopped. It wasn’t fun. I play to have fun. I play to challenge myself. Playing a profession that takes longer to down a boss (because I’m not running any races) doesn’t negatively affect the game for me, it positively affects the game for me.

Some people down bosses in 10 seconds or less. It trivializes them. Me, it might take me a couple of minutes and maybe, in the case of something like Project Alpha or Lupi, I can work up a sweat. Why is that a bad thing? Because it takes me longer? I don’t care. My guildies don’t care. Why? Get this.

Because we’ve having fun playing together. Doing an hour dungeon run while having fun is superior to me to doing a fifteen minute dungeon run while having fun. My way, I stretch out my fun to one hour.

What does that have to do with the balance patch? Are you trying to say that they are balancing the game around players who blissfully mismanage their trait lines and armor builds? Or what? I don’t get it, if Mario was balanced like that, he would be a stumbling, overweight, drunk who beat his kids. ……Actually, I would play that game.

Glad you have fun though, I guess.

Vayne.8563:

Gee, I guess I can’t do the dungeons I did with my ranger now. They suck. /sarcasm

Rangers isn’t much worse off now in dungeons than they were before. Particularly because the best pets to use in dungeons for anyone who’s not running with a group of zerker warriors, are spiders, which are ranged.

It’s the old, omg I’m playing with people who are so interested in effiicency they don’t want me. And that hasn’t changed since before the patch. The elitists and speed runners didn’t want you a week ago and they don’t want you today.

And the rangers in my guild will still run with the guild, and they’ll still get the same groups.

So what exactly has changed for a ranger? Honestly, it’s not as much as people think. I’m not killing stuff significantly slower, and yes, I main a ranger.

Uh…why wouldn’t you run an efficient build? I mean I play how I want, but my builds are efficient for what they are. I really don’t imagine that people go around and build their trait lines for condition damage then wear Clerics armor…or do they?

This patch affecting the Ranger profession doesn’t really have anything to do with efficiency as much as blind stupidity. An almost across the board nerf to pet damage…compensated for by…..nothing. Apparently someone, somewhere thought pets were way overpowered (probably a thief). The beastmaster Ranger builds were anything but OP, personally I considered them more of a baseline that I would have liked to have seen the rest of the builds brought up to. Instead they were nerfed to the mediocrity of the rest of the builds.

The staff ele changes have been sorely needed for quite awhile, so grats to the balance team for that. But, seriously, wtf was with the ranger nerfs. It certainly wasn’t because Rangers are OP in pve, which leaves the blanket nerfs at the feet of PvP or WvW…which they are supposed to be separating.

I suppose someone didn’t get the memo.

And you’re right, they aren’t much worse off in dungeons now than before. They weren’t a valued member of a dungeon team before, and they still aren’t now.

Einlanzer.1627:

killcannon.2576:

Kichwas.7152:

killcannon.2576:

Nice. You are now arguing that your definition of a class that Anet created is better than that of the people who created the class.

I’m pointing out that the person was ignorant of basic English for thinking ‘ranger’ meant ranged… they have no basis for that thinking other than the sound of a word.

As for the ArenaNet argument… look at what the class does. It’s not a WoW hunter…

It supposed to do what they describe it doing. Not sure why you’re even bringing WoW into it. Who wanted it to be a WoW hunter? Are you saying Anet wanted it to be a WoW hunter? Please explain.

Ranger as a GW2 class means what they describe it to mean. Not a LoTR character, Not a WoW hunter, Not an Army Ranger, Not Chuck Norris, Not a Forest Ranger, Not someone on walkabout, Not a PETA hippie.

The vast majority of builds were nerfed. I’m glad yours was not. The idea of balance is not to bring everything to the lowest level of mediocrity, but to bring everything to a state of equal usefulness. That did not happen.

You’re missing his point. The term ranger is not made up by Anet, it’s a real-world term that is commonly used in fantasy. The term has nothing to do with using ranged weapons, it defines someone who ranges, i.e. a scout or warden.

Sigh. Pedantry at it’s finest.

An in game term is defined…where?…in game.

If you want to discuss real world terms versus in game terms, go for it. You are just trying to obfuscate the discussion.

“Rawr!! Swords are melee weapons in the real world!! wtf is that Mesmer doing!!!! I’m calling my Senator!!!”

Kichwas.7152:

Substance E.4852:

Kichwas.7152:

AlexisRosewood.4210:

They’re called RANGERS for a reason they fight at range. Might as well call the profession a melee class kthxbyeinb4haters

When I was a kid in spelling class, we also had to write the definition of the word next to it on our spelling list.

Do they no longer do that in school?

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/ranger/

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ranger

rang·er
[reyn-jer] Show IPA
noun
1. forest ranger.
2. one of a body of armed guards who patrol a region.
3. ( initial capital letter ) a U.S. soldier in World War II specially trained for making surprise raids and attacks in small groups. Compare commando ( def 1 ) .
4. a soldier specially trained in the techniques of guerrilla warfare, especially in jungle terrain.
5. a person who ranges or roves.

The profession definition might say one thing, but if it was meant to be the word used in a manner other than the English language – its skills would have been more limited.

Since the actual skills of the class more properly match the English language, and its uses in fantasy – and even seems to be based on the 1974 game Dungeons and Dragons to a degree… I go with English.

That someone could assume ‘ranger’ means ‘range’ shows a failure at language skills – as that person didn’t quite the profession page, but cited merely the word as definitive. So there is the definition.

Nice. You are now arguing that your definition of a class that Anet created is better than that of the people who created the class.

Since that is now a viable argument, I want favored enemies and the ability to wear heavy armor as per D&D. And also….guns….lots of guns.

Lol, the apologists are out in full force.

Shelved Ranger till Anet gets back on the wagon, will be playing my necro more.

Will be playing Staffie ele a bit more to see if it’s actually worth it

Have to change around my warrior build a bit, but nothing drastic

Other classes…they just moved stuff around, changed the play style a bit with the Mesmer, should be an interesting meta change.

Overall? Maybe gave the Staff ele a slightly more viable build.
Zerk warriors will have to shuffle a bit, but they are still more than viable. Other builds for Warriors slightly…slightly…more viable (won’t change till they address the synergy of toughness and vitality).
Rangers have had their best builds moved to be as mediocre as the rest of their builds (great job)
Mesmers- changed most of their meta
Necros-Lovin it, too bad they didn’t use the same mindset to balance the rest of the classes.
Guardians- Still a stable profession, more viable at range
Engies- nuff said, play em if you find them fun.

Thieves-

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Anywho, I’m not arguing for vertical progression. Just progression. Whatever form that may take.

Yep, I think there needs to be some form of progression in the game, which is why I brought up alternate advancement. Many games use some form of it, without resorting to making the game about gear.

Basically I don’t want to be a coatrack for greatness.

I would like to see more (permanent) story progression personally, maybe with some decent cosmetics at the end or during it. Maybe a chain of separate, story heavy dungeons that have to be completed in order, with a fun, mildly challenging, jump puzzle to get to them (not on equal terms of the holiday ones), or a series of mini dungeons that have to be found. Hell, you could even attach Ascended gear pieces to the dungeons for rewards at completion.

I just do not want progression in this game to mean temporary content that only some get to experience.

I’m not arguing with you. Just saying I don’t trust quotes from that guy. I think the form of gear progression we have is fine, I think they could (should?) add some more ascended gear to go for. Would certainly reinvigorate the game.

Anywho, I’m not arguing for vertical progression. Just progression. Whatever form that may take.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Lol, I love all the people saying “Introduce gear progression and people will leave” or “GW2 was built with no gear progression as a selling point”. That argument was dead 7 months ago with the introduction of Ascended.

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

GW2 has never said it would not contain gear progression. Never.

It doesn’t matter what the casuals, hardcores, elites, or baddies think. There will be progression simply because it keeps people playing more hours of the day.

And in the end, that’s what MMO publishers want.

Eric Flannum has said straight out in interviews that the game wouldn’t contain vertical progression. There are two examples of it that people commonly post. He was wrong, obviously but he did say it.

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

“It’s more of a badge system, so this is something that we did in Guild Wars 1 as well. Our basic philosophy is that you should never complete a piece of content and get something you don’t want. So it’s going to be the case where you go through and are guaranteed to get a piece of gear that you didn’t have before, and that you’re going to want.” So, you’re guaranteed to get a piece of gear every time you do a dungeon? “Yes.”"Sweet."——Eric Flanum from an interview with PC Gamer about dungeons.

Eric Flannum:
Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.

I seriously would never, ever, quote that guy for truth.

Game was released with vertical progression. Fine<Masterwork<Rare<Exotic; levels; tiered trait system; content blocked by level.

And last, but certainly not least, I found this while I was googling Mr.Flannum

Vayne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hunter View Post
“They also said the wouldn’t add vertical progression. What are we supposed to believe at this point?”

Actually they never said those words. They said other words. They said that Legendary weapons would equal exotic weapons in stats. I’d love to see there they actually said there words there would be no vertical progression. A lot of things that are said during game production changes anyway. As the energy example I always give. Anet has always said it was a company that iterates, which pretty much means things change. Or maybe you missed the word iteration in every single post they’ve ever made on their blog and just about every interview they’ve given.

They try stuff all the time and if it’s not working, they change the stuff. That’s pretty much what iteration means. So if they see this isn’t working, they’ll change it. If they see it is working they probably won’t. What they had before wasn’t working for various reasons. They changed it. I’m pretty sure there’s something in the TOS that says they can do that, but I haven’t gone back and read it.

They’ve changed something you really care about and you’re angry. I get that. But they never said, there will never be any vertical progression in Guild Wars 2. I’m pretty sure there always planned it for paid upgrades for example.*

You know for a fact I know they’re an iterative company, because I’ve pointed that out many times. And no, I’m not particularly upset with vertical progression.

But in previous arguments on these forums, other people have pulled quotes out about vertical progression, when I was arguing that the manifesto didn’t mention vertical progression at all. I never bothered to verify the quotes, I just assumed that people actually used good quotes. Remember, I’m the guy who was defending Anet for their decision to add ascended gear.

You’re so good at finding quotes, surely you’d be aware of this.

I can’t find a quote by Mr. Flannum stating there would be zero vertical progression in the game. If there is one, someone is lying somewhere. Either Ascended was planned before release, making any quote stating there would be no vert progression a lie, or Ascended wasn’t planned before release, making that statement a lie.

Regardless, there has always been vert progression in game. It’s just not a treadmill.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Lol, I love all the people saying “Introduce gear progression and people will leave” or “GW2 was built with no gear progression as a selling point”. That argument was dead 7 months ago with the introduction of Ascended.

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

GW2 has never said it would not contain gear progression. Never.

It doesn’t matter what the casuals, hardcores, elites, or baddies think. There will be progression simply because it keeps people playing more hours of the day.

And in the end, that’s what MMO publishers want.

Eric Flannum has said straight out in interviews that the game wouldn’t contain vertical progression. There are two examples of it that people commonly post. He was wrong, obviously but he did say it.

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

“It’s more of a badge system, so this is something that we did in Guild Wars 1 as well. Our basic philosophy is that you should never complete a piece of content and get something you don’t want. So it’s going to be the case where you go through and are guaranteed to get a piece of gear that you didn’t have before, and that you’re going to want.” So, you’re guaranteed to get a piece of gear every time you do a dungeon? “Yes.”"Sweet."——Eric Flanum from an interview with PC Gamer about dungeons.

Eric Flannum:
Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.

I seriously would never, ever, quote that guy for truth.

Game was released with vertical progression. Fine<Masterwork<Rare<Exotic; levels; tiered trait system; content blocked by level.

And last, but certainly not least, I found this while I was googling Mr.Flannum

Vayne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hunter View Post
“They also said the wouldn’t add vertical progression. What are we supposed to believe at this point?”

Actually they never said those words. They said other words. They said that Legendary weapons would equal exotic weapons in stats. I’d love to see there they actually said there words there would be no vertical progression. A lot of things that are said during game production changes anyway. As the energy example I always give. Anet has always said it was a company that iterates, which pretty much means things change. Or maybe you missed the word iteration in every single post they’ve ever made on their blog and just about every interview they’ve given.

They try stuff all the time and if it’s not working, they change the stuff. That’s pretty much what iteration means. So if they see this isn’t working, they’ll change it. If they see it is working they probably won’t. What they had before wasn’t working for various reasons. They changed it. I’m pretty sure there’s something in the TOS that says they can do that, but I haven’t gone back and read it.

They’ve changed something you really care about and you’re angry. I get that. But they never said, there will never be any vertical progression in Guild Wars 2. I’m pretty sure there always planned it for paid upgrades for example.*

Erasculio.2914:

killcannon.2576:

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

You are factually wrong.

Where is my evidence? Every single WoW clone out there. All of them had gear grind and yet all of them had massive hemorrhages a few months after release, exactly like GW2.

Making a WoW clone is catering to a niche market. There aren’t that many people willing to be deceived by MMO developers, who believe players don’t know any better than donkeys being led by carrots in front of their faces.

ArenaNet’s main failure with GW2 is not failing to cater to MMORPG players; those just jump from MMO to MMO after complaining how each game is not enough like WoW. No, their failure was not catering enough to everyone else – to those who do not like MMOs.

I could go back to check all the posts from around November when everyone was screaming doom and gloom and they were all quitting and it was the end of GW2 and no one was ever going to play again. And I would probably find a good many people who said they were quitting…still playing. WoW clone GW2 ain’t, and I don’t think it could ever be one.

Whether any of the GW1 player base wants to admit or not, GW2 is an MMO and it requires MMO play mechanics. GW2 doesn’t have to follow the pack and make progression about gear, but they do need some form of lasting progression mechanic to ensure long term playability. Gear grind implemented in order to gate content would probably not be the best idea for this game, but there are other forms of progression available.

Gw1 was a great game, if niche, but it was mostly a single player experience. GW2 broke the mold on GW1, and many other MMO’s. GW2 needs to find it’s own mechanics and way forward, not borrow from the past- whether that be from GW1 or older MMO’s. And the mechanic has to be available to everyone equally, whether new or old players.

Lol, I love all the people saying “Introduce gear progression and people will leave” or “GW2 was built with no gear progression as a selling point”. That argument was dead 7 months ago with the introduction of Ascended.

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

GW2 has never said it would not contain gear progression. Never.

It doesn’t matter what the casuals, hardcores, elites, or baddies think. There will be progression simply because it keeps people playing more hours of the day.

And in the end, that’s what MMO publishers want.

Jam.4521:

killcannon.2576:

Yargesh.4965:

Gear grind does not bring in new players though. It drives some players away, keeps some current players slightly longer and some hooked like a fish. The target for the company is fresh box sales and gems, not gems bought with online gold. If they keep players on a treadmill that means that players get gold from in-game which from a business standpoint is not a win.
They in my opinion will not put this in the game.

I would have agreed with this statement 7 months ago, but since they did actually add gear progression already…it’s sorta moot. The same thing was said with the addition of ascended gear when it was released, the game didn’t die, they didn’t remove the gear to get back any players who said they were going to leave (most in fact did not) or remove it because they all of a sudden started losing players. Ascended gear was a good move for the game overall apparently. They keep adding more.

Only because ascended gear is not a necessity, in the form that it’s in just now with minimal stat boosts and the main function of the gear (agony resist) being restricted to fractals, which are fine due to the repeating nature meaning the only gating is to more difficult fractals, not actual content, but if they open up parts of the open world to a genuine gear grind then you have a whole new ball game.

I believe ANet should avoid gear gating outside of fractals at all costs. There are ways of making games without mimicking every other MMO ever made.

True, they shouldn’t gate content behind gear walls. But something the game lacks is progression, gear or otherwise. If the Living Story had been permanent content, that could have been a form of progression in and of itself, with no gear grind involved and something new players could have looked forward to when buying the game or something older players could have done with alts. But since they decided to go the route of temp content, there is still no progression which some players like to have to add a feeling of growth to their characters.

The game is sorely in need of some sort of progression mechanic outside of the personal story. With 7 months down the drain with temp content, new games on the horizon (better or not), and an aging player base, something new will need to be added. Whether that ends up being more gear or some other form of progression should be interesting to watch.

Yargesh.4965:

Gear grind does not bring in new players though. It drives some players away, keeps some current players slightly longer and some hooked like a fish. The target for the company is fresh box sales and gems, not gems bought with online gold. If they keep players on a treadmill that means that players get gold from in-game which from a business standpoint is not a win.
They in my opinion will not put this in the game.

I would have agreed with this statement 7 months ago, but since they did actually add gear progression already…it’s sorta moot. The same thing was said with the addition of ascended gear when it was released, the game didn’t die, they didn’t remove the gear to get back any players who said they were going to leave (most in fact did not) or remove it because they all of a sudden started losing players. Ascended gear was a good move for the game overall apparently. They keep adding more.

Jam.4521:

NO!

One of guild wars 1 AND 2’s main selling points was NO gear grind, and a lot of people like it that way, including me. If you want one then go and play a game with a gear grind. It has been publicised from the start that there will not be a gear grind so don’t act surprised when it’s not there.

It was never publicized that there would not be any gear progression. As a matter of fact many devs stated the opposite when ascended gear was released. That argument is 7 months dead.

Ah, don’t let em get to ya. Anet will put in more gear to grind regardless of what anyone thinks when they want to keep more people playing their game. It happened before, and it will happen again. They tried their little living story bit and they have mostly admitted it was a mistake, just a matter of time now.

Just wait for the population to dip a bit and you will see it. Ascended armor and weapons next.

Unless they release some other form of progression, yes.

pullnointer.1476:

killcannon.2576:

Molten Facility good. Subdirector Null bad.

Get rid of arbitrary insta death mechanics, get rid of gimmicks (anything where I have to switch out my weapon for an environmental weapon, or have to use switches and other bullkitten), get rid or arbitrary traps (lasers, rocks, ceiling/floor traps), unleash trash mobs- no more running past anything.

Anyway, it’s obvious the senior developers are working on something else. Whether that is an expansion, some mind blowing (or not) new content, or a totally different game is anyone’s guess.

they are working on living story. all of them. i know for a fact that Robert does too

I guess that would fall under the (or not) then.

Molten Facility good. Subdirector Null bad.

Get rid of arbitrary insta death mechanics, get rid of gimmicks (anything where I have to switch out my weapon for an environmental weapon, or have to use switches and other bullkitten), get rid or arbitrary traps (lasers, rocks, ceiling/floor traps), unleash trash mobs- no more running past anything.

Anyway, it’s obvious the senior developers are working on something else. Whether that is an expansion, some mind blowing (or not) new content, or a totally different game is anyone’s guess.

Ryuujin.8236:

Relevant /15 chars

Most excellent.

Morrigan.2809:

killcannon.2576:

Morrigan.2809:

killcannon.2576:

If you’re going to help, help. Do it because that’s the type of person you are, not because you need a pat on the back to make you feel better about yourself. And then posting it in the forums…oh my.

Common courtesy is doing the right thing without needing the recognition for it.

It is not about a pat on the back at all- at least I don’t think so, it is more about manners and the lack of it online.

IRL if someone helps you because you asked for it, you say thank you- why should a game be different?

It’s not about them thanking you or not. You either do the right thing…or you don’t. If someone needs help, you either do or don’t because those are your choices.

Doing the right thing or polite thing or helpful thing should not require a thank you, because it was the right thing to do. It is also the right thing to do to say thank you and please as a sign of gratitude. But a lack of gratitude does not excuse you from doing the right or correct thing. No longer helping because of a lack of gratitude on anothers part makes you selfish, self involved, and essentially only doing it for ones self aggrandizement.

To put it simply…many people only help others because they are expecting that little pat on the back of a thank you. The recognition of doing something good. You are only doing good to look better to someone else or to yourself. The true test of doing something selfless and good is getting nothing in return, and not bragging you did it later with no thanks involved.

:)
I was raised on Robert Heinlein and he taught me that gratitude is a false emotion that leads to resentment.
Exactly because of what you just said, so I do not disagree with you
.
I do find that good manners, kind of like alcohol, is the oil that makes civilization run on it’s wheels instead of decaying into chaos :P

Heinlein is good stuff.

Morrigan.2809:

killcannon.2576:

If you’re going to help, help. Do it because that’s the type of person you are, not because you need a pat on the back to make you feel better about yourself. And then posting it in the forums…oh my.

Common courtesy is doing the right thing without needing the recognition for it.

It is not about a pat on the back at all- at least I don’t think so, it is more about manners and the lack of it online.

IRL if someone helps you because you asked for it, you say thank you- why should a game be different?

It’s not about them thanking you or not. You either do the right thing…or you don’t. If someone needs help, you either do or don’t because those are your choices.

Doing the right thing or polite thing or helpful thing should not require a thank you, because it was the right thing to do. It is also the right thing to do to say thank you and please as a sign of gratitude. But a lack of gratitude does not excuse you from doing the right or correct thing. No longer helping because of a lack of gratitude on anothers part makes you selfish, self involved, and essentially only doing it for ones self aggrandizement.

To put it simply…many people only help others because they are expecting that little pat on the back of a thank you. The recognition of doing something good. You are only doing good to look better to someone else or to yourself. The true test of doing something selfless and good is getting nothing in return, and not bragging you did it later with no thanks involved.

Go esports!! yay!!

People want to know what the devs are doing….well that’s what the devs are doing.

If you’re going to help, help. Do it because that’s the type of person you are, not because you need a pat on the back to make you feel better about yourself. And then posting it in the forums…oh my.

Common courtesy is doing the right thing without needing the recognition for it.

JustTrogdor.7892:

killcannon.2576:

A fanboy is someone who generally adds nothing to a discussion of a topic because they feel the need to protect whatever they are fond of at the moment. They normally refute any criticisms or active discussions by telling people to leave the game if they don’t like it, by saying that others are only trying to tear things down, by telling others they are crazy, delusional, haters. Their posts are usually not logical or helpful in any way, shape, or form, and normally use more negative words and phrases than the posts that they rail against.

Forums are here to add discussion about game mechanics, class balance, content and to provide logical feedback to the dev team from a wide variety of people who play the game. You can tell a fanboy/girl because they seldom have anything of worth to offer besides telling others to be quiet or to shut up.

This topic has quite a few of them.

So is there a term for people that post on the other end of the spectrum? For example saying something like, “Such and such update is terrible and Anet doesn’t care about the players. This game is going down the toilet and everyone I know is quitting. Anet is just greedy. /endpost”

I see that type of debate fairly often as well. Usually both types of posts end up in some thread which causes a repeating cycle until the thread is 6+ pages and I’m totally lost wondering what the topic was about by page 2.

Some call them haters, but they are usually just fanboys of something else. Take for example the constant posts about GW1 vs GW2. Most of the originators of those kinds of posts are GW1 fanboys/girls. Or you have WoW fanbots, or insert game name here. It’s not that they hate GW2 per se, but that they hate it compared to other games they really like/love. Most of the back and forth on the forums can be linked to someone being overtly and blindly loyal to a game or form of mechanic somewhere. Mounts, raids, vert progression, dailys, farming, rng, casuals vs hardcore, elitists vs bads…most of this is related to other games or play styles people really enjoy.

Trolls are not related to being a fanboy generally. These are people who don’t have a vested interest in the topic one way or another, but instead just like to inflame arguments, or start topics that they know will start a flame war and sit back and enjoy the show. You can troll (verb) though without being a troll (noun)- meaning you may be interested in the topic at hand, but instead of discussing it logically, you intentionally use round about arguments, don’t forward the topic, intentionally use troll like behavior to upset your opponents.

So there is no real opposite of fanboy, just fanboys of different things.

JustTrogdor.7892:

It is unfortunate. In all my years of participating and moderating various forums both game related and not, complaints are the status quo. I think part of the issue is that people who are unhappy are the most likely to find places to voice their lack of satisfaction. You see it often with most forms of customer feedback. Those that are reasonably satisfied are the least likely to provide feedback. Those that a very happy and provide feedback are usually the smaller number. Around here the later is called a fanboy/fanboi. I still don’t know what that means. I’ve come to the conclusion that it has something to do with liking Justin Bieber??

A fanboy is someone who generally adds nothing to a discussion of a topic because they feel the need to protect whatever they are fond of at the moment. They normally refute any criticisms or active discussions by telling people to leave the game if they don’t like it, by saying that others are only trying to tear things down, by telling others they are crazy, delusional, haters. Their posts are usually not logical or helpful in any way, shape, or form, and normally use more negative words and phrases than the posts that they rail against.

Forums are here to add discussion about game mechanics, class balance, content and to provide logical feedback to the dev team from a wide variety of people who play the game. You can tell a fanboy/girl because they seldom have anything of worth to offer besides telling others to be quiet or to shut up.

This topic has quite a few of them.

Draknar.5748:

I just replied to a post about this! I like the temporary content. Years from now if I’m whispered “whoa cool backpiece where can I get it!!” I can respond, “Well years ago the Dredge and the Flame Legion banded together to try and take over Shiverpeaks and Ascalon. We had to fight our way into the Molten Facility and kill the two leaders of that group and the boss dropped this jetpack skin.”

“Oh, so can I get that skin?”

“Sorry pal, had to have been there.”

A) That person may end up being sadfaced because of that, but who cares
B) The longer you play GW2, the more unique your character can look (HUGE PLUS to me) with less of a chance someone can copy it.
C) Actually makes the world feel alive when things are legitimately in the past and cannot be done again. Definitely more realistic. They have to have repeating events naturally to sustain leveling up with some kind of novel content zone to zone, but this Living Story project is clearly designed to be ever evolving. If you miss it, it’s gone. Doesn’t bother me at all, I really enjoy it to be honest.

I’m shocked so many people complain about temporary content and treat it like it isn’t real content or that Anet is lazy. (which makes absolutely no sense, if anything it is the opposite of lazy to constantly release new temporary content. It would be lazy if they left it permanent. Seriously, think about it? It takes more effort to coordinate the removal than it would be to do absolutely nothing and leave it there forever)

My thoughts are that people wanted a WoW clone, but not too close to WoW, but also not too far from WoW. The hard-core raiders are sadfaced that they can’t continue to play like basement dwelling neckbeards and get the same e-phallus recognition they would get in other games when they would waltz around in the latest tier gear. Therefore they say the game is broken, sucks, etc. and spend their time posting on the forums about a game they dislike.

This post makes me sadfaced.

So who cares about getting new players and getting them to play the game? Anet does I’m pretty sure. I don’t think they want new players to be sadfaced But as long as some players get their e-phallus cosmetics, they can laugh at all the sadfaced new players. I really don’t see a difference in this attitude compared to how some raiders might treat people who don’t raid.

When you have a MMO, it’s smart to add value to the purchase for later adopters so that there is something in it greater than what other MMO’s may offer in the future. Living Story or temporary content doesn’t do this. I’m shocked some people do not realize this. I’m so sadfaced.

Anet hasn’t shown a vested interest in the forums. Most updates are posted on other websites first, most news stories are linked here by players instead of mods or devs (even though they have a news forum…go figure), and there is generally more dev participation on other sites. So I don’t figure we will see QoL improvements to the forums unless things change.

Forums will get better as the game ages and the player base ages and certain elements leave for other games. Players that are actually interested in contributing to the forums constructively will increase over time and drown out both the blindly negative and blindly optimistic. Mostly it’s up to the posters, if people want the forums to improve they need to do stuff about it.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

killcannon.2576:

The terms mean exactly what I think they mean. Please regale us all with what you think they mean. Look at current research on surveys and see what you find. Now look at survey research for games and players.

You know who else relied on small survey populations to come to incorrect conclusions and market something?

Microsoft.

I’m not here to try and demonstrate superiority or something. I’m honestly trying to understand why it is you think this survey is “pointless.”

On that front, I’m not seeing any arguments here for me to interact with. Why is the sample size insufficient given how confidence intervals are usually calculated?

First off, you need a population. You don’t have a population. You have a subsection of a subsection of a population. The survey wasn’t taken in game, it was taken on a forum, and by a subsection of a forum at that. So to get an accurate population you have to figure out “What types of players use forums?”, “Out of the players that use forums, how many players from GW2 use forums?”, “How many GW2 players that use forums use Reddit and GW2 Guru?”, “How long was the survey up?” “Who gave the survey?”, “Do they have an agenda?” “Do they have a following?” and on and on and on.

This is selection bias at it’s finest. I could go on with how surveys no longer show accurate representations of populations anymore because the population has changed and that they draw a certain crowd when they are not mandatory. There just isn’t enough information.

Statistics based upon polls just don’t have the same veracity they used to.

100% of the people polled said Killcannon is a god among men and a gift to womankind on earth. I got the statistics to prove it.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

killcannon.2576:

Someone doesn’t know the player base numbers for GW2 or what a proper sample size is or viewer bias or survey participation bias. If you want to push an agenda, at least back it up with something besides 359 people.

Several of these were discussed in the follow up discussion to the piece I linked, so I’m not going to rehash them here.

As for the sample size, you can obtain a good confidence interval/level for 300,000-500,000 (or more) players with a survey of 359.

A survey needs to be blind, wide, and mandatory to have any meaningful statistics involved with it. This survey was pointless.

I don’t think those terms mean what you think they mean…

And I’m not an apologist. So keep your labels.

Never said you were.

The terms mean exactly what I think they mean. Please regale us all with what you think they mean. Look at current research on surveys and see what you find. Now look at survey research for games and players.

You know who else relied on small survey populations to come to incorrect conclusions and market something?

Microsoft.

You just can’t use the same methods that have been used for the last twenty years anymore. They simply are no longer accurate.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

killcannon.2576:

Not even 400 people…..this is a survey? Come back when you have a few thousand.

Someone hasn’t taken statistics.

Someone doesn’t know the player base numbers for GW2 or what a proper sample size is or viewer bias or survey participation bias. If you want to push an agenda, at least back it up with something besides 359 people.

A survey needs to be blind, wide, and mandatory to have any meaningful statistics involved with it. This survey was pointless.

And I’m not an apologist. So keep your labels.

Not even 400 people…..this is a survey? Come back when you have a few thousand.

It’s your game and your time, tell the commanders to go take a flying leap. WvW is steaming pile anyway.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

In more detail…here’s the Colin Johanson paragraph that most people quote when they talk about grind…the WHOLE paragraph:

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

Where does it talk about gear or mats or farming in this paragraph? Does anyone else not actually remember the original definition of grind in MMOs, before people started calling farming grinding?

Grinding was killing stuff to level. In most games you had to kill stuff over and over again to level. Aion ran out of quests and the only way to level was to kill bosses. Over and over again. That’s the grind he was talking about.

He’s talking about stuff like having big encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. He’s talking about stuff like being able to go right from level 2 into SPvP without doing PvE at all. He’s talking about bring the fun back to leveling.

snip

snip

snip

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. ¹² The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.

snip

Gear was not mentioned in the paragraph. I’m pretty sure most people who aren’t being disingenuous will admit that Colin was in no way talking about gear grind, which is another issue entirely.

Fail at reading comprehension much? Look at the words used. The most common usage- ie meaning not the only. And Wikipedia? Seriously? lol, Did you even bother to check the referenced sources for the article? Of course not. You are embarrassing yourself.

Common usage means nothing. Seriously. If you can’t tell from reading that paragraph what Colin was talking about, common usage or not common usage, you shouldn’t even be arguing. Because you’re embarrassing yourself.

It’s clearly a paragraph that starts with one thing and ends with another thing. At no point in that ENTIRE paragraph is gear mentioned at all. So you want to take a single word, out of context, while ignoring other words in the paragraph, including the first and last bits of it just to prove a point.

Ever consider becoming a lawyer?

I’m not even discussing what the Devs did or did not say, or their meaning behind what they did or did not say. Rather the definition of grind you are trying to push as gospel.

Grind is and always will be subjective.

p.s. If you actually read the wiki article, GW2 has it’s own little paragraph that describes the grind in the game. So using the article you use as a source for grind….GW2 is a grindy game.

marnick.4305:

killcannon.2576:

Fail at reading comprehension much? Look at the words used. The most common usage- ie meaning not the only. And Wikipedia? Seriously? lol, Did you even bother to check the referenced sources for the article? Of course not. You are embarrassing yourself.

1/ Wikipedia is a very reliable source, that has been confirmed on several occasions

2/ most common usage is a very good definition unless you deliberately reframe something to suit an agenda. I’d go with the wiki definition over yours any day of the week.

3/ the sources claim the same.

There’s only one person embarrassing himself.

Wikipedia is a terrible source and you can not use it as a source in any scholarly article. The best you can do is use the sources that wikipedia uses as a source. If you look at the sources of the article in question they are opinion pieces.

Common usage according to the article is again an opinion, not a fact.

The sources are from opinion pieces.

Go to college and try…just try…to use wikipedia as a source. Laughable.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

In more detail…here’s the Colin Johanson paragraph that most people quote when they talk about grind…the WHOLE paragraph:

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

Where does it talk about gear or mats or farming in this paragraph? Does anyone else not actually remember the original definition of grind in MMOs, before people started calling farming grinding?

Grinding was killing stuff to level. In most games you had to kill stuff over and over again to level. Aion ran out of quests and the only way to level was to kill bosses. Over and over again. That’s the grind he was talking about.

He’s talking about stuff like having big encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. He’s talking about stuff like being able to go right from level 2 into SPvP without doing PvE at all. He’s talking about bring the fun back to leveling.

Now you may or may not like the leveling, but that’s what he’s talking about, and for many of us, Anet accomplished what they were trying to do. This game has the best, most fun leveling experience of any MMO I’ve ever played.

There is no “original” definition of grinding for a mmo. The term grind can refer to all kinds of things, it just depends on what a player finds distasteful. Have to get an attunement? Some called that a grind. Want a particular rare mount or drop? Some people call that a grind. Rep gains, crafting, walking, gathering, filling a Heart quest, map completion, jumping puzzles, achievements, PvP ranks, Fractals, filling a DE bar, you name it…can be called a grind if people don’t enjoy it.

The trick is hiding what people may consider a grind behind fun activities. If GW2 wasn’t such a beautiful world, I would consider Map Completion grinding. If I didn’t enjoy the combat system, killing stuff for any reason would be a grind. If I didn’t enjoy farming, Legendaries would be a grind. I actually can not stand jumping puzzles and consider them to be a grind when there is content behind them I want to get to.

Obviously they failed at making leveling fun for everyone. Many people forgo the leveling process altogether and do it by sidestepping the content. Killing SB is much the same as killing the Shatterer or any other meta boss. The dungeons, which have arbitrary mechanics and which are filled with gimmicky boss fights, have to be done a ridiculous amount of times in order to accomplish anything. Everything in the game is centered around getting to max level as fast as you can, and it’s pretty fast- about an hour a level for normal players. Leveling is trivialized and it behooves a player to get to 80 as soon as possible, then continue doing everything else. The problem here is that there just isn’t anything waiting, just the exact same stuff you’ve seen at level 10.

You’re complete wrong about this. There was/is an original definition ie, the first definition that was used, and what many old time MMOers STILL use. This is from wikipedia, the very first paragraph.

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. ¹² The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.

So I’m not making this up. And since the rest of the paragraph in question was specifically about combat and fun things to do while leveling, no one can POSSIBLY construe that has having anything to do with gear grind or grinding for a legendary.

Gear was not mentioned in the paragraph. I’m pretty sure most people who aren’t being disingenuous will admit that Colin was in no way talking about gear grind, which is another issue entirely.

Fail at reading comprehension much? Look at the words used. The most common usage- ie meaning not the only. And Wikipedia? Seriously? lol, Did you even bother to check the referenced sources for the article? Of course not. You are embarrassing yourself.

Vayne.8563:

In more detail…here’s the Colin Johanson paragraph that most people quote when they talk about grind…the WHOLE paragraph:

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

Where does it talk about gear or mats or farming in this paragraph? Does anyone else not actually remember the original definition of grind in MMOs, before people started calling farming grinding?

Grinding was killing stuff to level. In most games you had to kill stuff over and over again to level. Aion ran out of quests and the only way to level was to kill bosses. Over and over again. That’s the grind he was talking about.

He’s talking about stuff like having big encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. He’s talking about stuff like being able to go right from level 2 into SPvP without doing PvE at all. He’s talking about bring the fun back to leveling.

Now you may or may not like the leveling, but that’s what he’s talking about, and for many of us, Anet accomplished what they were trying to do. This game has the best, most fun leveling experience of any MMO I’ve ever played.

There is no “original” definition of grinding for a mmo. The term grind can refer to all kinds of things, it just depends on what a player finds distasteful. Have to get an attunement? Some called that a grind. Want a particular rare mount or drop? Some people call that a grind. Rep gains, crafting, walking, gathering, filling a Heart quest, map completion, jumping puzzles, achievements, PvP ranks, Fractals, filling a DE bar, you name it…can be called a grind if people don’t enjoy it.

The trick is hiding what people may consider a grind behind fun activities. If GW2 wasn’t such a beautiful world, I would consider Map Completion grinding. If I didn’t enjoy the combat system, killing stuff for any reason would be a grind. If I didn’t enjoy farming, Legendaries would be a grind. I actually can not stand jumping puzzles and consider them to be a grind when there is content behind them I want to get to.

Obviously they failed at making leveling fun for everyone. Many people forgo the leveling process altogether and do it by sidestepping the content. Killing SB is much the same as killing the Shatterer or any other meta boss. The dungeons, which have arbitrary mechanics and which are filled with gimmicky boss fights, have to be done a ridiculous amount of times in order to accomplish anything. Everything in the game is centered around getting to max level as fast as you can, and it’s pretty fast- about an hour a level for normal players. Leveling is trivialized and it behooves a player to get to 80 as soon as possible, then continue doing everything else. The problem here is that there just isn’t anything waiting, just the exact same stuff you’ve seen at level 10.

dadamowsky.4692:

Heh, true. CoF (p1 :P) brings a worst we have in the game – my guess is because this type of gameplay resembles most other MMOs out there. I’d simply report and exit group, there are other player willing to run CoF anyway, there’s no need to stick with kittens.

CoF p1 doesn’t remotely resemble any dungeon in any other game I’ve ever played. The exploits and skipping mobs in droves while doing dungeons is pretty unique experience to this game. If anything, they need to take a page out of the book of those “other games” and not put trash mobs on a leash.

What did we learn today class?

Rng sucks.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

mjharrison.3209:

Vayne.8563:

mjharrison.3209:

Olvendred.3027:

Stop thinking of GW2 like other MMO’s. You don’t feel like doing your daily? Then don’t.

You have to grind dailies, it’s the only way to get ascended gear… noone likes being weaker than everyone else, get real.

You can’t grind dailies. You can do them, but you can’t grind them…because they’re time limited.

The definition of grind is to do the same thing over and over again usually go get experience for leveling. But since daily CAN be done in 20 minutes, and since missing a day only sets you back a day…you really can’t grind them. In other words, as long as it takes you to do the five easiest dailies, that’s the longest you can “grind” for.

If you mean the game encourages people to do dailies daily…well, yeah, that’s sort of the point of them. It’s why they were made so easy.

If dailies are your idea of grind, there’s probably nothing more to say on the matter.

Grind to me is anything you don’t really want to do but are compelled to do due to game design/mechanics. For those of us with limited daily playtime, we’re compelled to grind the daily if we ever hope to keep us with the joneses wrt ascended gear, because (IMO stupidly) process towards a daily expires daily instead of accumulating until complete.

BTW, most dailies don’t take 20min, a more realistic average would be 45min.

If it takes you 45 minutes to do 5 dailies (all you need for a laurel), you’re doing them wrong. Come and hang out with me. I’ll show you how to do dailies in less than half an hour.

Cough Uhm…excuse me. Are you telling people how to do stuff in a shorter time…like with a guide or something? You know….like you were telling people not to do with the Southsun content? Because it trivializes the game…. and you wish people wouldn’t do it….and that these type of people are bad for the game?

Yeah…I didn’t think you were doing that.

I’m telling people there are faster ways to do things IF they find it slow. I’ve also said I don’t do them that way, because I just play the game and finish off what’s left at the end so I don’t have to.

See, people have accused me, over and over again, of only saying how I do things and not caring about how people want to do things differently. So I come out and offer help to someone who wants to do something different, not because I do it that way, but because I’m a helpful bloke and what do I get? Snide comments from the peanut gallery.

You can spin this any way you want, but if you do it my way, it’s not a grind because most of it is done incidentally as part of my daily play. If you do it the other way, it’s not a grind because it can be done so quickly.

Your move, Casperov.

Ewww, I can be Kasparov? Cool deal.

Grind is subjective, people can find anything to be a grind, while others view the same activity favorably. The daily could be to log in for 10 minutes a day and it would be a grind for someone, and they wouldn’t be wrong. Onerous activities just break down to what kind of player you are and what you enjoy doing.

Debating grind is like debating what people see in clouds. Some see dragons, others see hammers. Neither are wrong.

Palador.2170:

killcannon.2576:

If they do this…and it would be a horrible idea if they did…..then they should also publish the loot tables and percentages behind them for every single mob and chest in game. It’s the exact same logic. If player A wants to spend x amount of time or money doing x content then they should know the odds.

I would be against that. I don’t want them to tell us the odds of anything dropping from enemies in the game. ONLY the chests (and related things, like the mini-pet 3 pack) you buy from the gem store.

I am neither for or against, but if they decide to publish the odds on one thing you can be sure people will want the odds on everything else.

Vayne.8563:

mjharrison.3209:

Vayne.8563:

mjharrison.3209:

Olvendred.3027:

Stop thinking of GW2 like other MMO’s. You don’t feel like doing your daily? Then don’t.

You have to grind dailies, it’s the only way to get ascended gear… noone likes being weaker than everyone else, get real.

You can’t grind dailies. You can do them, but you can’t grind them…because they’re time limited.

The definition of grind is to do the same thing over and over again usually go get experience for leveling. But since daily CAN be done in 20 minutes, and since missing a day only sets you back a day…you really can’t grind them. In other words, as long as it takes you to do the five easiest dailies, that’s the longest you can “grind” for.

If you mean the game encourages people to do dailies daily…well, yeah, that’s sort of the point of them. It’s why they were made so easy.

If dailies are your idea of grind, there’s probably nothing more to say on the matter.

Grind to me is anything you don’t really want to do but are compelled to do due to game design/mechanics. For those of us with limited daily playtime, we’re compelled to grind the daily if we ever hope to keep us with the joneses wrt ascended gear, because (IMO stupidly) process towards a daily expires daily instead of accumulating until complete.

BTW, most dailies don’t take 20min, a more realistic average would be 45min.

If it takes you 45 minutes to do 5 dailies (all you need for a laurel), you’re doing them wrong. Come and hang out with me. I’ll show you how to do dailies in less than half an hour.

Cough Uhm…excuse me. Are you telling people how to do stuff in a shorter time…like with a guide or something? You know….like you were telling people not to do with the Southsun content? Because it trivializes the game…. and you wish people wouldn’t do it….and that these type of people are bad for the game?

Yeah…I didn’t think you were doing that.

If they do this…and it would be a horrible idea if they did…..then they should also publish the loot tables and percentages behind them for every single mob and chest in game. It’s the exact same logic. If player A wants to spend x amount of time or money doing x content then they should know the odds.

“*I shadow obvious new players and only jump in if they get in a real dicy situation then disappear and do it again for a bit.”

Not creepy at all.

Lol, Mini’s. It’s a marketing ploy plain and simple. Fall for it, don’t fall for it. Just creates more brand loyalty and retention on one side, and resentment on the other. One of these days Anet will have to learn how not to separate the playerbase. Or not.