Guild Wars 2

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

verb
verb: demand; 3rd person present: demands; past tense: demanded; past participle: demanded; gerund or present participle: demanding

1.
ask authoritatively or brusquely.
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
synonyms: order to, command to, tell to, call on to, enjoin to, urge to; More
literarybid
“Harvey demanded that I tell him the truth”
ask, enquire, question, interrogate;
challenge
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
insist on having.
“an outraged public demanded retribution”
synonyms: call for, ask for, request, press for, push for, hold out for, clamour for, bay for; More
insist on, lay claim to, claim, requisition
“workers demanded wage increases”
insist on, stipulate, make a condition of, exact, impose;
expect, look for
“most of those who contacted us demanded complete anonymity”
require; need.
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”
synonyms: require, need, necessitate, call for, take, involve, entail; More
cry out for, want
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

Who is asking for it? Where are they? You are using a circular argument. " If someone made it, it would be popular; it’s not popular because no one has made it"

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

No offense but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Either that or you are just trying to start an argument. So I’m just going to ignore you from now.

K thanks bye.

Right….I should have listed off Counterstrike and Team Fortress as good references on how to make a MMO. Then I would have known what I was talking about.

Gotcha.

Minos.5168:

killcannon.2576:

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

Therein lies the ultimate issue: ArenaNet didn’t want to upset all the GW1 fans (arguably the ones that should be the staunchest GW supporters) by implementing a crazy expensive, time-gated grind that was NECESSARY to succeed at the game.

They had already felt the fallout and lashback from the player-base with the initial introduction of Ascended.

So they kept it to a 5% increase on stats…

It’s beneficial, but not required.

However, it’s extremely time-gated and expensive…

So if it’s not required, and the armor doesn’t look that great (most people would probably just Transmute over top of it)…

Then what’s the point to crafting it?

They failed to appease vertical progressionists because it doesn’t give them enough artificial superiority…

And it just upset the horizontal progressionists (who arguably supported ANet the most… with GW1 and then pre-ordering GW2 on the promise of horizontal gameplay).

Agreed, it was a failure at implementation and concept for the most part. They should have never have went for a stat based progression system in a game not designed for it.

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=horizontal+progression

There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.

Yes, i agree there are opinions….

1.There are those that want vertical progression.

2.There are those that don’t want VP

3.And there are those that don’t care.

I’m not asking for them to remove it from this game I am simply asking for someone to make a new game without it.

Just because YOU don’t want something, doesn’t mean many others don’t.

This doesn’t effect you so calm down.

lol, I’m not taking offense or excited. Just enjoying a spirited discussion.

If you don’t want them to remove it from the game or institute a more Horizontal based approach here…..then this isn’t about GW2 at all then?

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

verb
verb: demand; 3rd person present: demands; past tense: demanded; past participle: demanded; gerund or present participle: demanding

1.
ask authoritatively or brusquely.
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
synonyms: order to, command to, tell to, call on to, enjoin to, urge to; More
literarybid
“Harvey demanded that I tell him the truth”
ask, enquire, question, interrogate;
challenge
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
insist on having.
“an outraged public demanded retribution”
synonyms: call for, ask for, request, press for, push for, hold out for, clamour for, bay for; More
insist on, lay claim to, claim, requisition
“workers demanded wage increases”
insist on, stipulate, make a condition of, exact, impose;
expect, look for
“most of those who contacted us demanded complete anonymity”
require; need.
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”
synonyms: require, need, necessitate, call for, take, involve, entail; More
cry out for, want
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

Who is asking for it? Where are they? You are using a circular argument. " If someone made it, it would be popular; it’s not popular because no one has made it"

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=horizontal+progression

There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

hellsmachine.4085:

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.

Simple check here.

Does having the skills or abilities make the content easier than for someone who does not have those skills? If yes then vertical progression. If no then horizontal.

Stat increase is just one form of vertical progression, not it’s entirety. Power creep has to do with increases to statistical power level over time, not vertical progression and is often attributed to gear increases and can be measured by mobs and challenges also increasing in power to keep up with the player. This can be seen in GW1 as your character progresses and the needs of certain skill types in order to complete certain content efficiently.

Vertical progression is anything that sets one player above another.

The game being easier is not the test for VP. You have to understand what the definitions are for the two forms of character progression. And, you can know this easily by googling the terms yourself.

At any rate, vertical progression scales a character vertically over time through increases to a characters power, usually through gear, but it could be through infusions. Basically anything that increases a characters power over time. It has nothing to do with setting a player above another.

Horizontal progression is usually implemented through skill or ability progression. This is not my understanding or my opinion. It’s what the terms mean. Again, just google the terms and you too can understand what they mean.

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.

Simple check here.

Does having the skills or abilities make the content easier than for someone who does not have those skills? If yes then vertical progression. If no then horizontal.

Stat increase is just one form of vertical progression, not it’s entirety. Power creep has to do with increases to statistical power level over time, not vertical progression and is often attributed to gear increases and can be measured by mobs and challenges also increasing in power to keep up with the player. This can be seen in GW1 as your character progresses and the needs of certain skill types in order to complete certain content efficiently.

Vertical progression is anything that sets one player above another.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

The only Commander tags that should be on the PVE side should be acquired from guilds and shouldn’t be able to be seen by anyone outside the guild.

LoL-Not an MMO
DotA- Not an MMO
GW1-Not an MMO
DayZ-Not an MMO
TF2-Not an MMO

What MMO has been thriving and raking in the most money? Not a horizontal progression one I can tell you that.

Horizontal Progression is a myth. If you progress, it’s always vertical. Otherwise it’s not progression.

Paulytnz.7619:

killcannon.2576:

Paulytnz.7619:

killcannon.2576:

They did this already. It’s called Southsun, just not underground.

It worked out so well.

The problem with Southsun is it is totally a lvl 80 area and even then it is more created for groups. If we are talking all zones that we have thus far with let’s say one new map coming each 2-3 months or so (which I would be happy with) then just think of the current zone lvls. All starter zones dungeons would be aimed with those levels in mind with possibly some areas in them for the higher lvls or small groups of said levels.

Levels and difficulty aside (again mainly referring to Southsun) there should also be more incentives to go there. Really where Southsun is concerned all that springs to mind are karka shells and those passionfruit things. Surely they can come up with more than that with a little bit of thought.

The mobs there are not exactly fun to fight either, sure they might be a challenge the first few times you fight them but how long does that fun really last?

To everyone else who have read and replied ty let’s keep this going for a little bit longer.

So…you want a map that is for individuals. That has better rewards. And you want enemies that are “fun”, and you want it to be easy too.

Gotcha.

Way to try and put words into someone’s mouth. I am suggesting that that some of us might like “new maps” to tie some of us over that are fun to explore, no major lore addition to the game which can be fun to go to and fight in which includes ALL LEVELS. What’s wrong with that, you got something against low lvls or having fun?

As for rewards, Anet likes to reward players they have said so in the past, besides we ALL play games for reward in some way or another. Weather it’s that next level up, that map explore done, killing that “newb” in wvw or finding new monsters to slay that oh just hey might have a new wep/armour skin or some other fun item reward why not?

…I wasn’t putting words in anyone’s mouth, sounds unsanitary.

Just trying to make it clear to myself, and others, what you suggested.

Paulytnz.7619:

killcannon.2576:

They did this already. It’s called Southsun, just not underground.

It worked out so well.

The problem with Southsun is it is totally a lvl 80 area and even then it is more created for groups. If we are talking all zones that we have thus far with let’s say one new map coming each 2-3 months or so (which I would be happy with) then just think of the current zone lvls. All starter zones dungeons would be aimed with those levels in mind with possibly some areas in them for the higher lvls or small groups of said levels.

Levels and difficulty aside (again mainly referring to Southsun) there should also be more incentives to go there. Really where Southsun is concerned all that springs to mind are karka shells and those passionfruit things. Surely they can come up with more than that with a little bit of thought.

The mobs there are not exactly fun to fight either, sure they might be a challenge the first few times you fight them but how long does that fun really last?

To everyone else who have read and replied ty let’s keep this going for a little bit longer.

So…you want a map that is for individuals. That has better rewards. And you want enemies that are “fun”, and you want it to be easy too.

Gotcha.

They did this already. It’s called Southsun, just not underground.

It worked out so well.

Vindred.1352:

Hi. I’m Vin. Personally, I’ve always loved GW. I just hit a point in GW2 where I couldn’t feel like it was fun to play. I take this with a grain of salt as I have no friends really capable of playing with me, nor do I really wish to be a social butterfly. I quit for a long time, but I want to play again, it’s just I don’t know what people do at my level to really get into it. I’m not big on pvp, I prefer to avoid group activities unless it’s like dungeon pick ups (and with the difficulty of the dungeons that I remember, PUGs were in large part unsuccessful), and I am not big on completion-ism. I just want to get on and fight big monsters and immerse myself in my character, but I’m having trouble getting there when I can’t find anything to really get the feel of life in Tyria. I really wish that this games professions had like, actual activities to them or like there was some kind of gimmick to help us cool down from just constantly fighting things.

Has anybody else felt similar before? If so, how did you cure the mundane? Any and all suggestions (besides just hopping into “totally huge super guild name here”) are welcome.

Thank you.

Try a non mmo genre game.

Honestly, if you want a good single player experience, MMOs won’t fulfill it. The Old Republic tells a decent story for a MMO, but still not as good as a single player game where the game is designed from the bottom up for one person. MMOs are designed from the bottom up for group or short individual experiences. They are also designed to bleed you for cash (f2p or sub), and there will always be an undertone to make you feel like things are just dragging out.

You’re just never going to get the same feeling from an MMO as from a quality single player rpg, or if they do ever make one that does….everyone will be playing it.

Forzani.2584:

Ameepa.6793:

The question is that are those requirements really needed?

It is very common that as soon as something new is in a game, the “elite” players make up some rules and requiremets and believe that they are absolutely necessary to complete it and drive away everyone who are not doing as they say.

Then almost always after a while all kinds of “naked kill”, “kill with 0 talent points!” and “20 man content 10 manned!” videos and threads start to appear. Proving that the original requirements were totally unnecessary and the only thing that really was needed was practice.

Pretty much nails it

Which is exactly why the DPS meta exists in the first place.

Skill and knowing the encounter trump the need for toughness and heal and cc effects. Your character class comes pre-loaded with all you need to survive any encounter, and anything other than dps builds are unnecessary.

Loading your character up with added toughness just replaces the skill or knowledge you haven’t acquired yet. Same goes to a greater degree for heals and cc. Players who go any other route are mostly just fooling themselves, because it isn’t needed.

chemiclord.3978:

TChalla.7146:

Then I’m still confused. What other kind of expansion would you be referring?

The traditional expansion model made popular by World of Warcraft; where you needed the base game to play Burning Crusade… needed both to play Wrath of the Lich King… needed all three to play Cataclysm… etc…

It was “popular” way before WoW in other game genres besides the MMO.

The basic gameplay mechanics of GW2 is what encourages zerker. It’s not flashy numbers, it’s not an elitist mentality, it’s not the dungeon design, it’s not the zerg, and it isn’t warriors.

The only attributes that synergize with skills well are power, precision, and crit dmg. There is zero advantage or need for anyone, anywhere, at any time to not stack those attributes as much as they can depending on their skill level. The game is based around active defense, this means knowing your class and your skill load out.

This is part of the game design to remove the trinity. It is intentional. It’s the way the game is.

The people who run high dps builds are the ones who know their classes, the encounters, and the people they play with. Adding more hp, toughness, or one hit kills to bosses or mobs will never change this. It will just make things take longer for everyone.

Instead of the nerf zerker or buff dungeons mob mentality that is being spread by casuals who can not grasp the game mechanics, the conversation should be about adding meaningful roles so that other builds will happen naturally.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

This is one thing Guild Wars 2 does right. If everyone is fighting the same enemy they all get their own chance at loot as if they were soloing it.

This gameplay mechanic is one of the sole reasons why I can’t play any other MMO out there. When I am out in the world I can help out other players or hit the same mobs and not anger that player. In other MMOs it feels very lonely in their PvE worlds even though you see people waiting around their “spot” to kill the same mob over and over again.

Great job on this decision Anet. Here comes a list of things you did wrong by other posts from haters.

Zergs.

TChalla.7146:

killcannon.2576:

TChalla.7146:

Devata.6589:

To bad that you have to turn to plain lying here, the conversation was pretty well until here. About them saying it was knows that the cash-shop had a focus (nonsense) and that there was no focus on expansions.. you even said you would not expect an expansion.. Funny because while After release they said they MIGHT never get an expansion that was not knows and they still haven’t said they will not use expansions. So there has never been and still is no reason for you to expect you could buy the game and then play on forever.
Here http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack this is the first time they said they might never get an expansion. 3 July 2013 5 months after release.

By the way, calling me a liar is bad form. Look here and look at the date.

http://www.gamerzines.com/mmo/news-mmo/guild-wars-2-no-expansions.html

Your move.

The link talks about the stand alone expansion model.

You’re right… which as far as I can tell is exactly what we’re talking about here. Unless I’m completely missing the point of an expansion.

A stand alone expansion model would preclude the need to own the original GW2 game. In other words, it would just release almost an entire new game.

For example: I could just buy the expansion GW2: When Bronies Attack and play the content included in that expansion and not have to own the original game. It would divide the player base quite a bit more than a normal expansion model.

TChalla.7146:

Devata.6589:

To bad that you have to turn to plain lying here, the conversation was pretty well until here. About them saying it was knows that the cash-shop had a focus (nonsense) and that there was no focus on expansions.. you even said you would not expect an expansion.. Funny because while After release they said they MIGHT never get an expansion that was not knows and they still haven’t said they will not use expansions. So there has never been and still is no reason for you to expect you could buy the game and then play on forever.
Here http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack this is the first time they said they might never get an expansion. 3 July 2013 5 months after release.

By the way, calling me a liar is bad form. Look here and look at the date.

http://www.gamerzines.com/mmo/news-mmo/guild-wars-2-no-expansions.html

Your move.

The link talks about the stand alone expansion model.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

So you buy, grind gold or grind achievements.

“Grind achievements”.

11 days out of 28 fighting either the Marionette or Great Jungle Wurm, maximum. And if you happen to be in on a good successful Marionette run, it’s probably shortened to around 7. And if you do more than one Marionette fight and vary things a bit, you can get down even further I’m sure. That’s a grind?

I mean, I get people want to slap the word “grind” on “they want me to do stuff more than once” but . . . seriously? Seven days out of a month with some active play, or eleven where you just show up for a half hour. I just want to reiterate this point. There was nothing ANet was doing stopping people complaining here about not having sprockets from getting their bonus node.

And also to reiterate there is constant talk about how this isn’t about sprockets but the precedent of a cash shop item granting a bonus. (Which is odd, since it could be traced this has been set before with Boosters but hey, who wants to worry about splitting hairs when we can whip up a good ol fashioned lynch mob?)

And yes, I’m quickly souring on this whole topic since the ones who wanted to discuss how this was a bad idea due to the precedent are now trapped with the talk of “pay to win” definitions and sprockets over the actual precedent they wanted to bring up.

Funny thats exactly what I said how the cash-shop focus was destroying this game. Making everything a gold and achievements grind while trying to push people to pay money in the cash-shop.

They gotta make their money somehow, and they decided (for whatever reason) they wanted the cash shop route instead of constant expansions. I’m still not sure why achievement grind has to mean anything about the cash shop, but hey, that’s not the topic on hand so we’ll leave that question in the “never to be answered” box.

Still don’t understand why people want to subject themselves to grind in this game anyway. There’s really not a reason to, aside from chasing shiny cool stuff. (Notably, exactly what you ground for in the previous game but again, who cares about that?)

Oow and I complained about the time-gated nature. Well the achievement to get that node it temporary available and the pick I am not sure about but is likely also temporary available.

Yes, except . . .

We all knew this going in, it was clearly stated last January about things being time-sensitive and limited-release. And while things were temporarily available they’ve also come back at least once now.

So you can’t even claim it’s a certainty they’ll offer it once and never again.

Boosters are available in game.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

killcannon.2576:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Ashen.2907:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

funny

I don’t think that word means what you think it does. : )

What do you think it means then exactly?

I think the term you may be looking for here is: profoundly disturbed, or schizophrenic, or sociopath.

Could be wrong though, just spit balling here.

If it was something I heard someone say in real life… Yes, It’s disturbed and that guy is most likely a sociopath or whatever…

But because it’s the internet… I think he is just being “funny”, another words, I think he is trolling to get a kick out of it. Why else would he bother? I spent money on a new account just to do this. He clearly doesn’t want to get banned from his real account.

I don’t know, that’s how I view people like that on the internet at least.

I agree that whomever is doing it is doing it for the “lulz”. I don’t find the “lulz” funny, just pathetic.

thaooo.5320:

If people don’t follow your righteous god-given orders, try these tips:

- TYPE IN CAPSLOCK
- Swear a lot
- Abuse everyone present
- Tell everyone in /m ‘this run has failed’, at the start of it
- Tell everyone in /m they made it fail by sucking at the game
- Tell people to never come back to the event
- Yell out “UNINSTALL NOOBS!!1!1!1!!”

These simple tips will earn you the respect you deserve for having bought (not earned) your commander tag.

Wait…..you mean there are commanders who don’t do those things already?

I think Anet put the tag in game to point out people you shouldn’t listen to honestly. Here’s a hint commander type people: If you’re not leading your guild, you’re not leading anyone. Quit fooling yourselves.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Ashen.2907:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

funny

I don’t think that word means what you think it does. : )

What do you think it means then exactly?

I think the term you may be looking for here is: profoundly disturbed, or schizophrenic, or sociopath.

Could be wrong though, just spit balling here.

WinteryRob.6789:

My girlfriend and I decided to play Guild Wars 2 again, we never got very far beyond maybe level 15 at the time. But as I’m updating, I thought I’d ask if any kind of significant changes have happened since then. Anything worthy of note?

Depends on what you consider worthy honestly.

They added progression mechanics…sort of.

Progression can be found in achievements, which gives you significant rewards at milestones. Progression can be found in the MF system: by salvaging fine or better items you can get items that when used increase your account MF statistic. There is also an endless dungeon which gets progressively more difficult the more you complete it called Fractals. It consists of 14 different mini dungeons, of which you must complete four for a full run. It has many unique rewards associated with it.

They added an entire new tier set that can be acquired from crafting, boss kills, or by doing time gated dailies and monthly achievements.

They have added a new world boss and revamped some others to make them more difficult (could be bad or good depending on your server or if you don’t mind joining a raiding guild). They changed one dungeon path as well. They added a new zone to WvW as well, imo too early to tell how that’s going to work out.

Bunch of qol stuff that should have been in from the beginning, but does make the game better regardless.

But overall, it’s still the same game. Zerg is the word of the day in GW2, and it either makes or breaks the game for you. There’s also some huge population disparity between the servers, so switch if you think you’re on a dead one.

Have fun and good luck.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Steel Fenrir.2791:

If other players would get access to sprockets in some way or another through out the year, then everything is fine. Otherwise, although this may not be pay to “win” per se (or atleast sprockets are not yet game breaking as it is), I would rather call it premium unlockables, a milder version of pay to win. I have 6 stacks of sprockets in my bank (+2 stacks in storage) and I don’t know if I’ll ever need them in the future atm. I do think we might get access to sprockets all year round, since the LS season 1 is ending and we don’t know what the model of the game would be afterwards (I mean, would the past LS events become replayable or not?). So for now, be patient guys.

Two things.

First. Players can still currently get access to sprockets year round if they do the Origin of Madness meta achievement and earn the Gift of Sprockets. (Much like you can get Quartz or Candy Corn all year round). There’s also talk of the Queen’s Gauntlet opening again at some unknown point, and if it comes with the Pavilion as well then there’s a good chance people can farm up a ton of the things.

Secondly. This topic isn’t supposed to be about the sprockets so much as the precedent of a mining pick with infinite uses and a bonus effect as opposed to just being unlimited.

I’ll also add nobody yet answered questions which were seriously asked about:

- If the pick was dropped via a more convoluted effort but you could just skip it for 1000 Gems, would anyone care as much?

I don’t care now.

But if it was available in game from a BLC or some permanent questline or as a rare drop, I wouldn’t be able to argue it as p2w any longer. Even if it was a limited use pick for 50 silver or so.

AcidicVision.5498:

killcannon.2576:

AcidicVision.5498:

killcannon.2576:

Gems are created in the gemstore to buy with gold whenever someone trades gems for gold. They are a finite resource created from outside the system by people with real money. When you use gold to buy gems, you are not buying them from Anet. The only supply of gems in game comes from…..real money. Any and all purchases from the gem store use real money. Either yours or someone else’s.

Anet had to create gems to populate the pool initially. In beta, headstart, and launch night there were gems available to buy via in game currency before enough transactions were made to create a surplus. Also, gems are given as rewards for achievement chests. Those chest rewards are a set value that is paid out at an undetermined time per player with no regard as to how many gems are in the “pool”.

So they are not created from outside the system, they are not created with only real money, they are not a finite resource and not all gem store purchases use real money.

Wow, you’re right. Here, I’ll change it.

99.99999% of all gems are made from real money.

Sources please. First you said all gem purchases, now you pull an arbitrary percentage out of your kitten. What empirical data did you use to derive that figure? You did say we were just talking about the facts afterall.

How many gems have been purchased? How many total have been given away for achievements? How many gems were available at the start of the game and has there ever been a time Anet has had to inject more? I am sure you don’t know. The closest any of us may be able to get is gems given through achievements via leaderboard.

It seems to me like you are presenting your own opinions as facts here and then telling everyone else that their opinions are invalid to the point.

Btw, were you aware that hyperbole is also it’s own logical fallacy? That’s three you are guilty of in the same discussion. Like I may have said before, I dont expect that to actually change your tune any. I’d just like you to know that there are names and cliches for the different kinds of bullkitten you are spinning.

I will allow you to struggle silently with your defeat.

Btw, hyperbole is not a logical fallacy, it’s a literary device. What are the two logical fallacies you are incorrect about me using?

tolunart.2095:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Short answer: No. The big update will NOT satisfy your hunger for better, more refined content.

It’s not a content upgrade, it’s a feature upgrade.

err…what the skritt does that mean?

New skills, balance adjustments, UI improvements, possibly new items and systems like an update to Legendaries and a new method to acquire precursors. Things like that.

Changes to the story and how it’s delivered are content updates, and they have announced that they will be separating features updates from content updates so players can focus on one or the other.

Bugfixes, closing exploits, and minor fixes to existing systems will likely happen in each update, since things like that can’t wait another month until the “correct” update is scheduled. But major changes to the game will be separate from the LS updates.

If that is what is in the “Big, huge, super, amazing, can’t believe it, astounding” (paraphrased) patch coming after Season 1 of the LS, they may want to rethink how they are describing it.

Vayne.8563:

Sinifair.1026:

Well, thank you, Darkace and Vayne for blowing things out of proportion.
- I was asking whether ANet have plans to polish their game and expand upon some of the features that they were going to innovate (and how brilliant innovation is. The idea is fresh, but no matter that it doesn’t truly work as intended and need polishing and refining, because it’s innovation…).

I appreciate ANet uncovering new ground and new ways of doing content, but they’re going to be releasing GW2 in other countries as well soon, and I would’ve thought it would’ve been a good idea to refine the content that they were so proud of innovating.

- The dungeons are being exploited, maps are left empty, bosses are damage sponges and people aren’t really using their combo fields or teamwork (I’ll agree, the bosses that have come recently are way better designed, but there’s a whole world out there that isn’t moving, isn’t breathing or living) but ANet have updates every two weeks, so we can’t argue with them, can we?

- A guy like me, who haven’t really cared for the Living Story content much since Scarlet appeared, who have spent a lot of time out in the world, who have saved villages from centaurs only for them to be attacked within minutes again (because no other DE’s are available to add variety to the place) is wondering when there’s going to be something done about this.
- IS this grand update going to satisfy my hunger for better, more refined content?

Short answer: No. The big update will NOT satisfy your hunger for better, more refined content.

It’s not a content upgrade, it’s a feature upgrade.

err…what the skritt does that mean?

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Trying to analyse the topic:

Does GW2 have a worse RNG than it’s competitors? Let’s take a look at one of the larger games out there: WoW

Best in slot items droprate compared to Ascended Gear (BIS in GW2):
Here is a list of drops from one of the raid bosses in WoW: http://de.wowhead.com/npc=71865#drops:0+17-3-18+1

items of itemlevel 572-574 have a droprate from 0.06 – 0.17 (which means 1-3 out of 1754)

There was a post on Reddit from a guy who opened Champion Lootboxes (which should contain Ascended Gear Boxex), see:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1tphls/analysis_opened_646_gilded_coffers_and_605_gilded/

he opened 646+605= 1251 boxes and got 1 Ascended Gear Box

If you ask me…

• GW2 shows a better droprate
• in WoW you can get BIS only from Raidbosses, in GW2 you can craft it by yourself, no specific content required. Fractals/Dungeons not required.

The problem imho isn’t the droprate but the quantity of items that can drop. Looking at the WoW boss in the link above, he can drop 178 different items, most of it quite good (in GW2 terms: specific exotic stuff). A lot of good items have a droprate above 5% up to 20%… in GW2 on the other hand exotics are still really rare.

PS: what adds to this is the “seen droprate”. What I’m trying to say: In WoW you see the drops of 25 people, then you roll the dice for these items. You might not get a lot, but it looks like you have a quit good chance of getting something.

You always get something. There are personal loot tables on bosses. And in heroics you are guaranteed a drop for your spec. Plus the tokens.

Comparing the two at this stage where there just isn’t a lot of gear (cosmetic or otherwise) in GW2 is kind of pointless. Anet just really needs to up their game on unique items that drop in the open world from large, non farmable events. More skins please.

I personally found marking targets useful in other mmo’s and would welcome any change that allowed greater versatility in that regard here.

So +1 from me.

Did you seriously just write down that you wanted more one hit kills?

Whew. this made me chuckle.

You just killed the Zerker meta and replaced it with a toughness meta. Try instead to think of balance.

pdemo.8312:

Ok so what are your guesses on gw2 population. This means how many people do u thing are online at prime hours. I don’t need to hear anet is the only ones that knows that. I know anet is the only people who know exactly but what are your guesses.

42

Wanze.8410:

killcannon.2576:

Wanze.8410:

killcannon.2576:

They will because it will make them money.

Being level 80 doesn’t hurt the game economy.

It does, considering how much people use crafting to lvl their alts. If people dont need to do that, most mid and low tier mats (except the ones that are used in end game crafting) would simply have no value anymore. This would result in new players getting no gold value for their gathered mats anymore.
The other way to lvl is to simply play the game, if players could buy their way to lvl 80 via gems, low and medium lvl maps would loose even more population than they have already.

still need to craft for ascended

That might be true for common mats (wood/ore/cloth etc) but not for fine crafting mats (blood, skales, venom sacs, etc) or rare mats (slivers, shards, fragments, etc).

Do you not craft? You need the fine mats to level crafting.

And the rare ones are next to worthless at low levels used for gimmicky potions and horrible sigils and runes.

Wanze.8410:

killcannon.2576:

Flissy.4093:

killcannon.2576:

Being level 80 doesn’t hurt the game economy.

“cheating” to it does. People leveling is what brings most of the mid-tier mats in. Sadly, people are circumventing this from champ farming to level anyway, hence the ridiculous price of most things T3/4.

So adding the scroll won’t change a thing then

I dont think you have any idea how the game economy works.

Sigh. The flippers and the crafting power level players are the only ones who would be adversely affected by this. The economy is so screwed up already by these two sets. There is nothing to keep the flippers in line with the rest of the population in wealth growth, and the power level crafters just feed these people money.

Honestly, why do you think it would affect the economy at all outside of those two subsets. If you play the game, you get your mats. You don’t need to go buy them. And for the people who are actually out there playing and populating the zones and not sitting in LA or doing the champ trains, they deserve to get paid more for their crafting mats.

Being 80 doesn’t preclude me from hitting the mid level zones, as being level 40 doesn’t guarantee that they will even go there. People go where they want or where Anet leads them.

I’m against the idea of instant 80’s, but bringing up the economy is laughable.

chemiclord.3978:

IndigoSundown.5419:

If you’re really asking why…

This move is being made to revert the WvW participation for a Legendary back to where it was before badges were put into Achievement chests. It’s possible to earn map completion without ever fighting a player. It was (is?) also possible to get badges from the JP. The requirement was put in originally to give people a chance to experience the game mode. ANet has decided their intent was not being served and changed the game so their intent is being served.

Feel free to disagree with their intent, but the “why” is readily apparent.

Bumping this, because within will you find the truth.

Except…there are still easy ways to circumvent it.

Flissy.4093:

killcannon.2576:

Being level 80 doesn’t hurt the game economy.

“cheating” to it does. People leveling is what brings most of the mid-tier mats in. Sadly, people are circumventing this from champ farming to level anyway, hence the ridiculous price of most things T3/4.

So adding the scroll won’t change a thing then

Wanze.8410:

killcannon.2576:

They will because it will make them money.

Being level 80 doesn’t hurt the game economy.

It does, considering how much people use crafting to lvl their alts. If people dont need to do that, most mid and low tier mats (except the ones that are used in end game crafting) would simply have no value anymore. This would result in new players getting no gold value for their gathered mats anymore.
The other way to lvl is to simply play the game, if players could buy their way to lvl 80 via gems, low and medium lvl maps would loose even more population than they have already.

still need to craft for ascended

GW2’s new slogan

“Not quite as bad as those Asian p2w grindfests you’ve heard about!!”

Sad.

They will because it will make them money.

Being level 80 doesn’t hurt the game economy.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

For the people who want to say p2w is subjective based upon perceived value.

If it that is indeed how you feel, then none of your arguments can ever hold any weight. If it is subjective for you, then it is subjective for everyone. The game is both p2w and not p2w depending on who you ask and you are no more correct than anyone else.

It is subjective for everyone, or it has an objective definition which can be turned into insane conclusions which don’t make sense.

You can not have it both ways. If you feel it is based upon a perceived notion of subjective value, you then can not set any goal post for anyone else and there is no value in your opinion in an objective discussion except in telling people how your opinion is right and there’s is not. Which makes no sense.

And yet, here we are again and again about the topic of pay to win. Not just you and I, but everyone else discussing it like it matters.

There is either an objective definition (which there is)

Says you. And it still can be twisted through interpretation into making no sense at all by anyone with half a brain. An objective definition on the same wavelength of “this is the objective definition of ‘cantaloupe’.”

(Which, incidentally, is also one thing which is attributed wrongly when talking about the produce . . . )

or there is a subjective definition for everyone and you can’t say it’s not p2w. An objective, fact based, definition can not include a subjective term. If allowing a single sprocket per hit of a pick is not p2w, neither is being able to buy a more powerful armor than anything else available in game.

There is a difference and you’re throwing it away because . . . in your esteemed opinion . . . it doesn’t matter to the interpretation of the definition.

The sprockets are available through the “Sprocket Generator” resource node still available for two weeks (minus two days right now). They are available to anyone who plays the game and completes that meta achievement. In this instance, there isn’t “pay to win” since any person can earn themselves Sprockets if they do this. Considering they can also be traded between players, it is difficult to get the definition to stick without some considerable extra clauses which renders 90% of the game also “pay to win”.

A more powerful armor (“introducing the new Cash Shop Tier”) not available elsewhere in the game purchased only through Gems is more decidedly “pay to win” since it gives an advantage not available elsewhere through other means. Though if that tier was made available at a later date through normal play, then perhaps it could be argued to have been P2W once but not anymore.

There is a notable difference between these two. Discarding them is doing a disservice to a proper analysis.

It’s your perceived value again.

35 copper a sprocket is not worth anything, but powerful armor is. Both are something you can only get through the gemstore, but you only see the armor making a difference in game.

What does the armor do? Makes the game easier. What does getting more money per hit on ore do? Makes the game easier.

For some, p2w mechanics are o.k. as long as it’s just a little p2w. If my tank has just a little more armor. If my plane just flies a little faster. If my gun only does a little more damage. If I only make a little more money. If I can sprint, but others can’t, we still all get there eventually so it’s o.k.

The people who like to use the goal post argument, or shifting sands fallacy all believe this. It’s only p2w when they say it’s p2w, and never before. They have a self imposed value on it.

You’re trying to make things much more complicated than they really are.

Anywho, I’m done. Got more than my share of discussion in for the week. I enjoyed talking with you. Have a good one.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

Yeah… value is subjective. I’ve been saying that.

Reality has no place when the discussion is about games, because we don’t follow the same natural laws. You would have to compare it to fantasy in real life then, which would be another huge topic.

Reality has no place? We’re not talking about reality, I was talking about value. You’re the one who decided to make it about reality and move the topic again.

You can not use perceived value as a basis to determine p2w. It’s simple.

. . . and yet people do. Perception is reality. We went over this.

If it is offered in the gemstore and not in game and makes anyone more proficient than anyone else at anything than someone without it….it’s p2w. Objective.

See, now you changed the description of Pay To Win again. And if you want to be honest about that definition being objective, the whole game is pay to win since I bought the game via the store and since I am better at the game than someone without it, it must be Pay To Win. Or I’m better at having used the “Mistfire Wolf” skill since I paid for digital deluxe, so Pay To Win. Or I have a mini nobody else can have thanks to paying for it. Pay To Win.

How far does this definition actually go before we need to inject some subjectivity to keep it from being interpreted with that above insanity?

I didn’t bring reality into it…you started going on about the cost of milk for whatever reason you had. You did read your own post? If you can’t keep it in game terms, it’s not my problem.

People are using perceived value, like yourself, to try to define p2w. Not me.

The definition of p2w has not changed at all since I started typing. I would welcome you to show me where I changed what I gave as the objective definition? Not sure what you are seeing.

I love your little rant though, very amusing.

For the people who want to say p2w is subjective based upon perceived value.

If it that is indeed how you feel, then none of your arguments can ever hold any weight. If it is subjective for you, then it is subjective for everyone. The game is both p2w and not p2w depending on who you ask and you are no more correct than anyone else.

You can not have it both ways. If you feel it is based upon a perceived notion of subjective value, you then can not set any goal post for anyone else and there is no value in your opinion in an objective discussion except in telling people how your opinion is right and their’s is not. Which makes no sense.

There is either an objective definition (which there is) or there is a subjective definition for everyone and you can’t say it’s not p2w. An objective, fact based, definition can not include a subjective term. If allowing a single sprocket per hit of a pick is not p2w, neither is being able to buy a more powerful armor than anything else available in game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

Again. There are not multiple definitions of pay to win. Only where you move the goal post in it’s relation to what you value.

No.

There are multiple subjective definitions, because as we established – perception is reality.

If the gem store sells Ascended armor +1 to all stats…is that pay to win?
If the gem store sells Ascended armor +100 to all stats…is that pay to win instead?

Both are.

But as neither are real, then does it matter?

If the gem store next week sells a pick that gives 1 sprocket per hit….is that pay to win?
If the gem store next week sells a pick that gives 100 per hit…..is that pay to win?

Both are.

Only if the sprockets have a value which makes them significantly unbalancing. Otherwise, it’s a neat little extra which doesn’t trip the “pay to win” definition because other activities generate more over time than swinging the pick.

People want to argue what is value.

Okay, as the other guy said, I’ll bite.

Value isn’t a simple definition by any means, even when talking of monetary value. You have to know this, because your conversations show you to at least study whether something is objective or subjective.

Heck, even monetary value is incredibly subjective and has goal posts moved all the darn time. Something which is worth $1.00 US today is not necessarily worth $1.00 US tomorrow, or was worth $1.00 US a year ago. Or ten years ago. You can point to a tag and say “this is a fact this gallon of milk costs $2.73 US”. You’d be right. But that value is fluid and mutable – that same gallon of milk costs $4.21 US at my corner store, most likely.

While there is a fact about what value is set at in one moment, there is no concrete, completely objective monetary value any object has set on it.

Value is subjective.

Yeah… value is subjective. I’ve been saying that.

Reality has no place when the discussion is about games, because we don’t follow the same natural laws. You would have to compare it to fantasy in real life then, which would be another huge topic.

You can not use perceived value as a basis to determine p2w. It’s simple.

If it is offered in the gemstore and not in game and makes anyone more proficient than anyone else at anything than someone without it….it’s p2w. Objective.

You’re the one arguing value….not me.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

Majic.4801:

Arguing about logical fallacies and other ephemera misses the point that players are not required to act like robots.

If players feel like they’re being played, they will react in whatever fashion they will.

Logic need not apply, nor will sophistry of any form change anyone’s minds about what they will accept or not accept in an MMO.

True, perception will always trump definition.

Partly true. In this case, perception is reality for many of the people in this discussion. And given we’re talking about things which don’t even exist at all, it’s really hard to argue what’s “real” at all.

Perception is the biggest factor in most discussions of the real, regardless in what form it takes.

Your perception of the pick colors your reality of how it should be treated, the same as other’s perceptions color theirs.

My perception? It exists. The fact it exists is enough to make a bunch of people upset, even without taking into account an extra effect. It marks three distinct permanent, infinite picks with different animations; this is enough to make people upset.

My opinion of the pick is simply put: its extra effect is unimportant in the face of having 4 weeks to secure your very own source without spending Gems. This has to be how it managed to “sneak by” and get included. The precedent is irrelevant to the discussion, and hinges on assumptions of the future which cannot be proven, just suspected strongly.

The objective truth here is: There is a pick that is only available in the gemstore. The gemstore can only ever be accessed with real money, either your’s or someone else’s. The pick has greater functionality than any other pick outside of the gemstore. These are facts.

If I accept these as facts, does that mean I can only subscribe to your interpretation of them, or do I get to make my own mind up?

People’s perception will then color what this means to them. Is it too much? Is it o.k.? Does it make the pick they bought earlier obsolete? Is it o.k. since I can trade gold to get gems? Does the increased functionality break the game? What do people consider an advantage? What is your individual created goal line for what your definition of p2w is? These are opinions and perception. And in each individual case you may have different answers depending on any number of factors.

Well at least we can agree there are myriad definitions of “pay to win” and not one unified, immutable one. Even if it keeps creeping into a thread intended to be more about the extra effect precedent and not about the actual item.

Perception trumps reality in almost any aspect of life, except where natural, inescapable laws come into play.

This is why I stopped trying to pursue anything other than honest hard work for a career. I prefer things such as making sure product is available or acting as a register-operating counter monkey to blogging, writing opinion columns, or trying to sell services people don’t really need or want.

But back on topic. Again.

With the question I raised many many times before:

If this pick was available in the Gem Store for 1000 Gems and also available as a rare drop during a Living Story segment, or as a meta achievement reward, would we be having this discussion? Would it be permissible to create an item like this which was either available in game through luck or earning it versus “ah screw it I don’t want to participate in the LS this month, I’ll just buy it”.

Again. There are not multiple definitions of pay to win. Only where you move the goal post in it’s relation to what you value.

People want to use a subjective definition for an objective reality.

If the gem store sells Ascended armor +1 to all stats…is that pay to win?
If the gem store sells Ascended armor +100 to all stats…is that pay to win instead?

Both are.

If the gem store next week sells a pick that gives 1 sprocket per hit….is that pay to win?
If the gem store next week sells a pick that gives 100 per hit…..is that pay to win?

Both are.

People want to argue what is value.

In regards to what you mentioned: If the pick itself is available in game through normal gameplay mechanics…then it can not be p2w. I’m sure you want to bring up the home instance node….but it’s not a pick. And content lockouts that things like the instance nodes are a part of are also bad.