The gem store does rely on any outside source. Also please explain how buying gems with your own gold is using someone else’s money?
Pay close attention. You are about to see some La Nouba caliber mental gymnastics…
Just facts, sorry to disappoint.
Gems are created in the gemstore to buy with gold whenever someone trades gems for gold. They are a finite resource created from outside the system by people with real money. When you use gold to buy gems, you are not buying them from Anet. The only supply of gems in game comes from…..real money. Any and all purchases from the gem store use real money. Either yours or someone else’s.
Arguing about logical fallacies and other ephemera misses the point that players are not required to act like robots.
If players feel like they’re being played, they will react in whatever fashion they will.
Logic need not apply, nor will sophistry of any form change anyone’s minds about what they will accept or not accept in an MMO.
True, perception will always trump definition.
Partly true. In this case, perception is reality for many of the people in this discussion. And given we’re talking about things which don’t even exist at all, it’s really hard to argue what’s “real” at all.
Perception is the biggest factor in most discussions of the real, regardless in what form it takes.
Your perception of the pick colors your reality of how it should be treated, the same as other’s perceptions color theirs.
The objective truth here is: There is a pick that is only available in the gemstore. The gemstore can only ever be accessed with real money, either your’s or someone else’s. The pick has greater functionality than any other pick outside of the gemstore. These are facts.
People’s perception will then color what this means to them. Is it too much? Is it o.k.? Does it make the pick they bought earlier obsolete? Is it o.k. since I can trade gold to get gems? Does the increased functionality break the game? What do people consider an advantage? What is your individual created goal line for what your definition of p2w is? These are opinions and perception. And in each individual case you may have different answers depending on any number of factors.
Perception trumps reality in almost any aspect of life, except where natural, inescapable laws come into play.
It is indeed not subjective. It’s a store.
A store that is part of the game.
part
pärt/Submit
noun
1.
a piece or segment of something such as an object, activity, or period of time, which combined with other pieces makes up the whole.But you are free to disagree. Its your opinion. And opinions are subjective.
Incorrect. You consider it part of the game because you can buy things from it to use in game. This definition would also include any and all electronic retailers, brick and mortar stores that sell gemcards or copies of the game itself. Since this is obviously not true………..
So the Black Lion Trading Company (aka gem store) is not part of the game because you can buy things to use in the game just like you can buy the gemcards and the game itself from a brick & mortar store. Therefore by this logic since you can buy the game at a brick and mortar store makes the game not part of the game.
I do think your logic has flown out the window. The BLTC is part of the game and anything in there can be purchased with in-game currency. Or are we going to argue that any vendor that sells things in the game to improve your character is P2W? The gem store is as much part of the game as the vendor in Metrica that sells the “Golem in a box”.
Incorrect. The vendor in Metrica does not rely on any outside source. The gemstore does. Also nothing is purchased with in game currency. Everything is being paid for in cash, if you buy gems with gold you are just using someone else’s money.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
Even if you take away raid in wow, wow don’t have less content than gw2.
You should go out to the open world in GW2. Besides the few events which drop dragonite ore, it’s pretty empty.
I go into the world daily. Everyday. That’s how I play the game. I’m sorry, but my experiences on Tarnished Coast do not match up with yours.
You’ve yet to address any points I’ve made. Honestly, you haven’t made any points really at all. I mean, really, I type these posts full of meat for you to respond to and you give me back a half microwaved McDonald’s hamburger of a post.
Have a good night.
TC is not like every server. It’s nowhere close to how the majority of servers are currently populated.
I can not take anyone seriously from BG or TC anymore. These top tier servers do not represent a realistic view of the game.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
It’s a casual game targeted at Bronies, what do you expect?
Arguing about logical fallacies and other ephemera misses the point that players are not required to act like robots.
If players feel like they’re being played, they will react in whatever fashion they will.
Logic need not apply, nor will sophistry of any form change anyone’s minds about what they will accept or not accept in an MMO.
True, perception will always trump definition.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Against my better judgment, I’ll go ahead and bite.
First of all, the term “pay to win” has no true definition. It is a made up term. However, even if you want to argue over a definition that doesn’t truly exist, we’ll use the definition that is most commonly touted.
Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
I have highlighted the word significant. Now go ahead and give me your perception of what significant is. And while you do that, you can think long and hard about just how subjective the very definition of Pay to Win is, making it a ridiculous argument all unto itself. Once you realize that, you’ll realize just how ridiculous the argument is about the “oh-so-important and ‘must have to compete’ sprockets” is.
Let it sink in.
The term Significant is subjective and can not be part of any definition.
Then you cannot argue Pay to Win at all, since there is no set definition of Pay to Win.
I gave you the definition. If you choose to ignore it is your choice.
Now I know you’re arguing just to argue.
There is no set definition of what Pay to Win is. What you gave me was your definition. Go Google “pay 2 win definition.” You’ll get plenty of opinions about what it is, but you will NOT find a true definition.
As I said before (and thank you for proving my point), there is no sense in making the “Pay to Win” conspiracy theorists try and understand. I’ll continue reading this topic, laughing at those that think this is Pay to Win.
Feel free to try to move the goal post anywhere you like.
It is indeed not subjective. It’s a store.
A store that is part of the game.
part
pärt/Submit
noun
1.
a piece or segment of something such as an object, activity, or period of time, which combined with other pieces makes up the whole.But you are free to disagree. Its your opinion. And opinions are subjective.
Incorrect. You consider it part of the game because you can buy things from it to use in game. This definition would also include any and all electronic retailers, brick and mortar stores that sell gemcards or copies of the game itself. Since this is obviously not true………..
The gem store is not part of the game, any more than Gamestop is part of the game.
That is subjective. I can open the gem store in the game. I get items from the gem store in my in-game mail. I get gem store items for achievement rewards. It is just your opinion its not “part” of the game.
See how this works?
It is indeed not subjective. It’s a store.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Against my better judgment, I’ll go ahead and bite.
First of all, the term “pay to win” has no true definition. It is a made up term. However, even if you want to argue over a definition that doesn’t truly exist, we’ll use the definition that is most commonly touted.
Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
I have highlighted the word significant. Now go ahead and give me your perception of what significant is. And while you do that, you can think long and hard about just how subjective the very definition of Pay to Win is, making it a ridiculous argument all unto itself. Once you realize that, you’ll realize just how ridiculous the argument is about the “oh-so-important and ‘must have to compete’ sprockets” is.
Let it sink in.
The term Significant is subjective and can not be part of any definition.
Then you cannot argue Pay to Win at all, since there is no set definition of Pay to Win.
I gave you the definition. If you choose to ignore it, it is your choice.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
If that is the definition you want to stick by, ignoring the fact that the definition of “normal” play itself is a subjective, then everything in the cash shop is available through normal play since there is a gold to gem conversion.
To say otherwise introduces subjectivity the other way. Since now you have what one group of people might think its an unacceptable conversion rate, or that it takes too long to get gold, or that the gold needed isn’t worth the benefit of the item. And you will have another group of people that doesn’t care and is fine farming/grinding for gold to get the same items. There is a split between the people that value their time more than their money and vice-versa.
To be purely objective, using the goal post you set, means that there is no pay to win since everything is obtainable through the game itself.
And ignoring that is cherry picking. Proponents want to argue its pay to win and will only lead to much more grievous pay to win items, then try to say its not a slippery slope point of view because of the subjective value of sprockets; meanwhile they ignore that the items are available to all players through game, without spending a dime, but apply their own subjective opinion as to how the time needed to not pay cash is unreasonable.
You pay to win folks are all over the place.
The gem store is not part of the game, any more than Gamestop is part of the game.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Against my better judgment, I’ll go ahead and bite.
First of all, the term “pay to win” has no true definition. It is a made up term. However, even if you want to argue over a definition that doesn’t truly exist, we’ll use the definition that is most commonly touted.
Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
I have highlighted the word significant. Now go ahead and give me your perception of what significant is. And while you do that, you can think long and hard about just how subjective the very definition of Pay to Win is, making it a ridiculous argument all unto itself. Once you realize that, you’ll realize just how ridiculous the argument is about the “oh-so-important and ‘must have to compete’ sprockets” is.
Let it sink in.
The term Significant is subjective and can not be part of any definition.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant. And they are rendered even more insignificant due to the home instance node. A person with the pick has no more of an “advantage” over everyone without it as the people that got the meta node do over people that didnt get it.
We arent talking about Ori, or lodestones, or something that can destabilize the economy and the way people play the game, or devalue everything those items were used for previously.
Again, you are using the same fallacy.
You are using your own subjective value to determine what is an objective argument.
The pick is a legitimate concern, how would any of your feel if we had a 2000 gem pick that had a 20% chance to drop an ecto? The pick sets a prescience and the potential of what can be made in the future is something to be worried about.
The best thing Arena Net can do is remove the bonus and offer an apology and refund to those that choose it. Not that they have to give a refund, the pick was not advertised to have a bonus anyway.
This is the exact rational that makes this entire thing ridiculous. What you, and most other people are doing, in their opposition of the item is called a slippery slope argument.
And that is a known logical fallacy. Here is some reading material: http://goo.gl/Txni
Summarized,
“A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.”There is no warrant in this argument because its already been proven the effect of the items is insignificant. When boosters were first announced the game was dubbed pay to win. Then the player base at large came to realize their effects overall impact was insignificant.
The same thing happened when it was revealed there would be a currency exchange. Which would cause a landslide of people buying legendaries which would give those players a significant advantage in WvW with the ascended upgrade and….ad nauseum. It never happened en masse.
This pick and the complaints around it demonstrate that fallacy to perfection. Its broken logic and a flaw in reasoning.
Incorrect.
You’re definition of what is significant or not makes you disregard the warrant, which is another logical fallacy.
You decide that a sprocket is insignificant, but, objectionably, it is not. This is the same argument as can be seen in examples such as “whose life is worth more…a child’s or an adult’s?” A sprocket carries the same value in this argument as any other concrete item in the game, from a copper coin to legendary. You are trying to use a subjective viewpoint to judge an objective argument.
Using one logical fallacy to try to disprove something you think is a logical fallacy is incorrect.
Instead of crying about what is fair and what is not fair, learn to fight against companies. In European and Asian nations the people are smart enough to know that companies tolerate anything from their userbase because they exist for one thing….making money!
The way they fight against companies is by remaining eternally vigil and with some form of unity when something happens that people do not like, they flock to the opposing companies and give their money to them, while spreading how they have been treated to others on a massive scale.
This is very powerful as it teaches companies that their userbase is not mindless and willing to be smart enough to invest in the opposing company as a measure of public opinion.
Finally, the creation and posting in independent communities where the moderation is more indepedent and neutral as first party as a primary source rather than a secondary or tertiary source becomes highly important, because as Americans know….you think you have freedom of speech, until you are hung by the words you say and everyone chooses to duck rather than to enraged.
One has to only look at themselves in the mirror to see the true face of the good and most wicked of all evils.
Ok so you suggest to run off and start playing wow or something to address things that we don’t like when Anet has clearly made it known to us that they like feedback from us? Somehow, I just can’t see that working…..
I also think that using other forums will be far less effective than here since we know for a fact that Anet reads these forums.
I am not American and I don’t buy into this freedom of speech and other drivel people shout from time to time so I will just not address that side of your post.
They read the CDI threads for sure…the rest of the forums I doubt, or they wouldn’t need the CDI threads in the first place.
Anyway you cut it, this was a bad idea. Stop instituting bad ideas.
A sore spot? Hardly.
I have all of one legendary that a guild helped me get by gathering a lot of the T6 materials (specifically because it looked so ridiculous). You’re the one howling about “fair” and whatnot.
For a person who claims to not care, you sure seem to care a whole lot about it… considering this is the second thread in two different sub-forums you’ve whined about it in. Sounds like you care a hell of a lot, actually. But hey, that’s just me.
I do apologize for singling out your quote however, because the post really was directed in general to those whining about having to go into WvW for their legendary requirements.
At this point, I don’t know how much clearer Arena.net can make it. They want you to WvW AND PvE in order to get a legendary weapon, and they aren’t going to change that requirement no matter how much carebears (to borrow the term for PvE-exclusive players) cry about it.
This makes sense…if you just couldn’t buy them.
So no, this doesn’t make sense.
If it makes you feel better to run a Giver’s set go for it. There’s a reason it’s not part of the meta.
- Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.
- Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!
- Fun impacts development. Explorable dungeons have multiple paths you can take and random events in them. Because of this you don’t feel like you need to play the same dungeon over and over again if you want to chase the prestigious rewards at the end, but can instead mix up that experience to keep it fresh and fun.
- Fun impacts customization. The event and personal story systems allow you to get a sense of customization from your characters. Playing through the game, each character can experience completely different content, and the world can always stay fresh and new in the pursuit of new story lines, and an ever-changing dynamic event world. It means going back to a place you’ve already been with a character can be fun, and it means making a new character on an entirely different personal story chain can be fun as well.
- It doesn’t take much effort to get the best stats available
- You don’t have to run dungeons over and over and over to get their rewards
- Dynamic events are ever-changing and totally not the same ones repeated on timers
- Doing different events somehow equates to customization
Hate to be “that guy” today, but oh well.
Everything that Colin states in this blog post is true. And the things he talks about are really good parts of the game compared to some other MMO’s.
are you.. replying to something?
what’s the context of your post?
It’s an old quote from from a blog post by Colin.
full context here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/
Let em speak their mind as long as it makes basic sense.
I don’t mind them making sense – as I’ve said, fear of this precedent being leveraged is not out of line, nor unworthy of being heard.
It’s the assumptions of it necessarily becoming worse I find more annoying.
. . . also the fact we’re talking about a resource for which there’s sources available to anyone who completed the meta this last two weeks, and is implied heavily on being a recurring option.
A not horribly unjust assumption would be that if no one said anything about being upset or that there might be a slippery slope is that Anet (or whomever is ultimately in charge of monetization)would think the entire player base liked it (or had no issue with it) and would therefor go further down this road of added functionality to gem store items. Based on metrics as well, of course. If X item sold Z amount of units, we should try item Y to see if we can sell Z+100 amount of units.
Not going to discuss again about whether or not it’s a form of pay to win. Perception will trump definition in individual cases, so it’s pointless.
You give two choices: Leave or suck it up.
And lots of people in this thread who are bothered tend to leap for one of two characterizations of people not going for pitchforks: blind fanboys who defend ANet while they drown puppies, or idiots who can’t tie their own shoes without being reminded this thread is about pay-to-win.
While more sane individuals here keep saying it’s not about that but about what might happen in the future. In turn, this is often rooted in assumption of either incompetence or malice on this item, from what I keep reading here. There’s wild extrapolations which don’t make any sense (“a tool which has a 100% to generate ectos!”) mixed in with what is a legitimate concern.
If you’re wondering why they’re not responding, it’s probably because there isn’t anything they could begin to add on this which wouldn’t result in an incredible crap-storm. First, they’d have to acknowledge the item exists, then either say “it’s fine as it is” or “we’ll be removing it” and in either case the storm is going to get bigger and louder.
In essence it’s my opinion they’re not answering because there is no answer they could give which wouldn’t make this worse. And they realize it, while having read the concerns, and decide to just let actions (that is, not doing this again) speak louder.
If they decide to take no action, that’s fine by me, it’s not game breaking or fundamentally affects how I play the game.
But….we shouldn’t try to shut down opinions or feedback from people who are giving it in order for Anet to possibly make a more informed decision in the future concerning Gem Store items and how they make the player base feel towards the game.
Let em speak their mind as long as it makes basic sense.
Treborlavok and Lalangamena if you read my last couple of posts you would see that we came to an understanding, try not to be so mad. It doesn’t help the matter and will most likely get the thread closed.
Nah it’s all good. I’m not mad at all I’m just disappointed because this game could’ve been so much more. I was an avid eq/eq2 player for many years. So I love the trinity. But it was nice to have something come along with the hopes of a soft or no trinity. I just wish they would’ve done about it another way.. Maybe it was rushed maybe it es an oversight who knows. But the main thing is that the game is already too far along to change and not kitten off one majority if players or the other.
The game is still fun. But it will be replaced with bigger and better things. It’s the nature of the beast.
ESO seems to have a pretty good “soft trinity” from what I hear.
Never trust marketing or beta tests. Wait for the game.
Looks like it will be fun for at least a month or two regardless.
been brought up before, but it’s good to keep it fresh.
I have no desire to be inflammatory.
The problem here is players. They are overreacting (like usual). I am saying if you truly believe what is being uttered (that Arena.net is milking their fans with some “Pay 2 Win gem store treadmill”) then the correct response isn’t flooding their forums in protest. The correct response is leaving and hitting them where it counts (in their player numbers and by extension their wallets).
Because if Arena.net TRULY was the way that is being claimed, they wouldn’t give one rat’s kitten about this protest… because you’re still playing. Concurrency numbers are effectively money in an MMO, especially one with an in-game store. The more people playing, the more likely there is someone (and usually several someones) buying their stuff through said store.
Do you see what I’m trying to get at here?
The other option is that Arena.net ISN’T like that, that they either misread the interest or don’t agree that there any particular slippery slope is forthcoming. And if THAT’S true, then we as players need to tone down the rhetoric and buzzwords. Because if you’re a developer that wants to work with your fanbase, you are going to be a LOT less likely to listen to a bunch of children having temper tantrums.
You give two choices: Leave or suck it up.
According to this, there is no need for feedback in any manner from the players for any topic besides binary. Play or don’t.
Binary feedback is metrics, and developers or really any business needs more than just metrics to formulate successful business plans and to meet the needs of their customers.
lol, Rise of the Anti-Social MMO. I’m sure that says great things about the game’s future.
Why this isn’t a Flameseeker article I don’t know.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.
Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?
Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?
You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…
incorrect, the team who kills the others healers first wins.
That is the central aspect of strategy, generally, though not the only one. If it’s arena, it might just be killing the squishiest one or ignoring the squishiest one for that matter. Combat is rather rich under the trinity, unlike the stack and wail combat of GW2.
If you really think trinity is so “rich” and GW2 PvP is stack and wail. Why are you even playing this game? There’s countless MMOs with trinity… Why don’t you just play them instead of trying to turn GW2 into one of them?
I just don’t see how anyone can say the lack of defined rolls makes this game better than any other. It just makes it one dimensional. There needs to be a reason for build diversity adopted and implemented in game.
I want toughness, vitality, and healing power to synergize better with a characters skills.
If I decide to make a high vitality build, I want it to give me a bonus on dodges, or an extra dodge meter or a bonus defense versus condition damage.
I want toughness to synergize with defensive skills more. I want it to extend block times with shields, increase counter damage for skills that have such, I want it to extend durations on defensive skills or increase their potency.
I want healing power to give more than just bonus healing. If it’s high enough, I want chances for extra effects, I want heals to matter to my teammates more than “x player drop water field, and 20 players burst finish in it”, I want chances of reviving downed allies with high heals.
I want more than just crit dmg and power to synergize with my skills so that if I do choose to go that route, it’s not just a wasted effort. A toughness, vitality build should synergize with skills as well as a zerker build.
But it doesn’t. There is no incentive to do anything other than stack as much dps as my skill will allow. And that’s one dimensional game play.
That’s probably a better idea than asking for Trinity…
And really, that’s all players want.
Hell, GW1 didn’t even have the trinity in the traditional sense.
There’s a lot of distance between the traditional trinity and “the only things that matter are DPS and dodging”.
EVE also doesn’t have the trinity, why don’t you go play that? Alternatively, you just stop using that awful myopic argument.
Because I don’t like space and I don’t like runescape… I also don’t like a lot of things about WoW, though I did like that game at one stage.
GW2 was supposed to be the alternative to WoW. Slowly being destroyed by the WoW crowd that cries for things like “I want carrot on a stick/gear grind” “I want Trinity” “I want PVP gear” “I want Pandas”. When they already have all that… I just don’t get it…
You may want to stop pointing the finger at the players and start wondering why the devs implemented those mechanics in the first place.
Hint: Because everyone was leaving the game.
No one wanted the gear grind, they wanted Character Progression. Devs decided on the type, not the players.
Not many want the trinity, they just want more meaningful roles to play.
Not many want power creep in pvp, they just want some kind of meaningful progression as well.
You’re blaming the wrong people.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
Try TOR. It couldn’t decide if it was a single player, story driven rpg or a team focused, UI driven MMO.
Seriously, the story lines can be pretty good in that game. Shame it wasn’t developed as a sequel to KoTOR.
Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:
1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.
There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.
Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?
DPS
Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.
Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?
I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.
Throw 5 tanks into most WoW dungeons and they will fail as well.
A balanced PvP group will beat 5 pure DPS.
Unfortunately, the same is far from true in PvE, and it is why I have quit playing it even though I’m by far a more PvE person.
Luckily, I didn’t say pure dps.
3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.
Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?
Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?
You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…
incorrect, the team who kills the others healers first wins.
That is the central aspect of strategy, generally, though not the only one. If it’s arena, it might just be killing the squishiest one or ignoring the squishiest one for that matter. Combat is rather rich under the trinity, unlike the stack and wail combat of GW2.
If you really think trinity is so “rich” and GW2 PvP is stack and wail. Why are you even playing this game? There’s countless MMOs with trinity… Why don’t you just play them instead of trying to turn GW2 into one of them?
I just don’t see how anyone can say the lack of defined rolls makes this game better than any other. It just makes it one dimensional. There needs to be a reason for build diversity adopted and implemented in game.
I want toughness, vitality, and healing power to synergize better with a characters skills.
If I decide to make a high vitality build, I want it to give me a bonus on dodges, or an extra dodge meter or a bonus defense versus condition damage.
I want toughness to synergize with defensive skills more. I want it to extend block times with shields, increase counter damage for skills that have such, I want it to extend durations on defensive skills or increase their potency.
I want healing power to give more than just bonus healing. If it’s high enough, I want chances for extra effects, I want heals to matter to my teammates more than “x player drop water field, and 20 players burst finish in it”, I want chances of reviving downed allies with high heals.
I want more than just crit dmg and power to synergize with my skills so that if I do choose to go that route, it’s not just a wasted effort. A toughness, vitality build should synergize with skills as well as a zerker build.
But it doesn’t. There is no incentive to do anything other than stack as much dps as my skill will allow. And that’s one dimensional game play.
3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.
Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?
Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? You get lost on the way to the pvp forum?
You don’t PvP much do you killcannon? Other MMOs it’s basically team with healers wins… If your team has no healers, but the other does you may aswell just afk…
incorrect, the team who kills the others healers first wins.
cc/burst, bunker/condi, condi/burst what do these all have in common? DPS, just different flavors. At no point is dps not the largest contributing factor in killing someone. A pure bunker, cc, or heal build takes no part in the meta.
Why do commanders call for different fields in WvW? To stack buffs to dps better. Teamwork is the zerg, hence the gameplay meta in wvw. Stack and spank is the exact same thing people do in wvw as they do in pve. WvW is more zerg like than most of pve.
3 game modes and 2 are PvP based. Combat in GW2 is largely balanced around PvP. Of course there shouldn’t be trinity.
Anyway, PvE in any MMO is mindless, boring and scripted. You’re either wailing away at a meat tank or you’re being killed in 2 hits or both (when you’re soloing content, not including grinding, which can be done with a bot). Why are we even discussing PvE here?
Because pvp has never really relied on a trinity in any game and doesn’t have a place in the topic? And pvp is the least popular game type in the game?
(edited by killcannon.2576)
Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:
1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.
There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.
Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?
DPS
Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.
Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?
I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.
I’d rather wipe them all with a coordinated group that understands the importance of damage, support and control.
And you would get focused and destroyed by a coordinated dps group. It’s why almost all the instances can be soloed unless specifically designed otherwise. There is zero need for anyone else except you.
You don’t sacrifice cc, heals, or buffs when you roll dps. There is no trade off. It’s just skill.
Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:
1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.
There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.
Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?
DPS
Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.
Oh really? How’s that working for you in PvP?
I don’t know, throw 5 bunkers at 5 dps centric builds and tell me.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:
1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.
There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.
Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?
DPS
Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.
No there not one chose in GW2 there only one chose in a trinity to play the trinity and wish you where a dps. GW2 is real chose in how you play you can play more then just the 3 class system because there are more then 3 types of things you can do in rpgs. Dps tank support hp / buff there also debuffing, hybrid all time, a tie in class, there the pet class (that can do something more then just have a meat shield and solo), there the utility class that goes beyond support, and there even item / environmental use class.
Here are the only things that truly matter in game for your character:
You have enough toughness to survive fights for your skill level
Enough healing to heal yourself from hits you can’t avoid at your skill level
DPS
And don’t need toughness or healing as long as you have the zerg.
Anything else is just wishful thinking and wasted effort. There is only one class, DPS. Tank support is unneeded, buffing is unneeded, hybrid class is unneeded, debuffing class is unneeded, I don’t even know what a tie in class is, heal classes are unneeded, ranger pets get in the way as often as they help, utility class is unneeded, items or environmental classes serve no purpose.
The game relies on one thing and one thing only…..DPS….make that two things DPS and dodging. The game just isn’t designed for anything else. It’s made for people who can’t play the trinity, it’s a dramatically simplified system.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:
1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.
There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.
Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?
DPS
Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.
killcannon, glad to have you back on the light side.
Uh….ok? Thanks?
With a trinity there would maybe be some meaningful PVE.
Without any roles, GW2 cannot have PVE. Instead, it’s ZVE. Zerg versus Environment. And this isn’t fun because the individual is unable to affect the outcome for better or for worse. It’ll either succeed or fail regardless of what I do. And this isn’t fun.
Trinity with open tagging would still lead to the zerg.
Players who want the traditional trinity want it for one of two reasons:
1, They haven’t found a profession, build or playstyle that suits them yet. Or..
2, The feel of the combat and how it plays overall just doesn’t suit them.There is a 3ed reason they cant chose for them self when they have a chose they need to have something chosen for them. They want to be in a box and not think outside of it.
There also a 4th but is a support tank only point of view they want to feel important and want other ppl to think them for playing the less played class type. They want to feel self important by the “pain” they must endure.
Uh…you do realize there is only one choice when you play GW2?
DPS
Sorta weird you think that this game has more choice than the trinity.
Yeah, WoW not only slows you down, the game nickel and dimes you with slowdowns. Many mobs, you’d fight them, and they’d get down to about 5-10% of their health left. Then they would use a slowdown skill, like cripple or chill. The effect lasts for some time, long after the mob is dead. While the game might provide me with an interrupt or a cleanse, I would normally fight several such mobs before these counters would come off cool-down.
The slowdown skill had zero effect on the outcome of the battle. So why is it there? I saw no reason for the skill timing to be anything but an attempt to slow me down. it’s only a few seconds, but you kill an awful lot of mobs leveling in WoW, and a lot of them do this.
At least in GW2, mob slowdown skills normally get used early in the fight, when they might actually change the dynamics of the fight.
It’s to teach players the mechanics of their class, and to acclimate players to later battles in dungeons/raids where these mechanics are much more prevalent.
To many long time MMO players these kind of encounters are old hat, but WoW introduced many players to the genre and it was important to have a tutorial without a tutorial.
If true, that would be bad design. If you’re trying to teach something, you put in a mechanic that matters, and allow the player to discover and use a counter-play mechanic. You don’t put a mechanic that does not matter on an entire class of enemies where the player will encounter it ad nauseam. Well, you might if you also want to slow people down, and if you don’t care if your game is boring as all kitten.
Not sure what you are speaking specifically about, but there were plenty of counters, blocks, redirects and cleanses that players had to work with. Not sure which class of enemy you encountered ad nauseum that slowed you down constantly.
I still vote nothing will change as the game is broken at the core and no one wants to bother fixing that.
Do you mean you feel like the game was actually designed around a trinity system…but they just forgot to put in the healers and the tanks? If so, I agree.
The dungeon fights here remind me of when my friends and I would all take our dps toons into a dungeon and try to beat it when we played WoW. Can be done and was generally about as much flailing around and running as there is here.
anyone else hate this temporary content feature as much as i do?
Raises hand
I like the dark and brooding tone of the two older trailers.
It sure feels a lot different than quaggan back packs and bows that shoot unicorns.
Another comment: although I haven’t gone far in either game, it seems to me that those who liked the original GW would be pleased with TSW. It shares the flexibility of GW’s skill system where you choose a set of abilities from an expanding selection, and the lack of classes and semi-lack of levels makes it easy to fill multiple roles with a single character.
The downside is that the first zones, at least, are tiny and in the process of learning the game I’ve repeated the same content over and over. There’s not a lot to explore without running into beef gates where you need “gear level X” or die.
The second downside is that the first part of the game is all about zombies. They are easy to create from a programming standpoint (the basic models already exist since most games have human PCs), but there are soooo many zombie games out there that I’m tired of seeing them.
That is also my take on it, although I only have second hand experience for GW.
The LS also penalizes players for going away by missing the story, AP, unique collectibles, unique gem store purchases, unique skins, time gated content locks. Most sub games you have access to the entire game you pay for. Both have pros and cons.
I really wish I had the metrics to base a discussion upon, but I don’t. I could say that less than 100k of the players that bought the game still play or will ever come back or I could say that every single one that bought the game will come back. All any of us have are anecdotal accounts of our own experiences.
I rolled Devona’s Rest originally. I watched that server go from being highly populated and active to watching it die a little more each month of the LS. I never seen the people come back. I’m now on BP watching it do the same exact thing as DR did.
I think that’s the gist of it. You’re looking at the game from a completely different perspective, and looking for another kind of experience.
To be honest, the LS doesn’t do a lot for me either. But I don’t care about getting AP or achievements, doing fractals or crafting ascended gear, or chasing a Legendary. I think that the majority of players are a lot like me.
But ultimately we can only discuss how we feel about the game, because neither has the facts. But I believe that even though you can’t see the moon’s influence on the earth, you can see its effect as the tides go in and out. In the same way, you can see the effect of Anet’s choices in the way the game progresses. They have said they plan to make some adjustments to how they approach the LS, as a result of what they learned over the last year. But the fact that they flat out refuse to abandon it indicates that the overall effect has been satisfying to them.
And Anet does have the numbers to back them up, so their actions trump our guesses and feelings.
I hope so, and I can say I’ve enjoyed this content update slightly more than others. I enjoyed the story instance, wish there was more of that. The bosses are fun and challenging, even if not all servers get the same kind of play experience.
I hope that the quality of the LS continues to improve to the point where I can put it in the pro category when I tell someone about the game, instead of the con.
PS: I’m a player a lot like you
So you’re saying you’re willing to pay a sub for a game as long as it’s high quality with enough content to keep you satisfied?
I suppose so. Rift kept me engaged for a long time but I started to lose interest around the expansion’s release. I suppose it’s because that was my first experience with MMOs, and I’ve never gotten into raiding and PvP… by the time the expansion arrived I’d done everything in the game that interested me, and didn’t care to start over again.
Other games have not always engaged my attention like that. TOR seemed to have been developed as KOTOR 3 and halfway through some executive figured they can make more money from an MMO than a SP game. So they changed horses and… drowned. If they hadn’t done that it would have been a huge success.
GW2 is far from the perfect game, but I get a sense that it was designed for players like me. I “get” it, and appreciate its casual nature. Not everyone will, particularly those looking for the traditional MMO experience.
I think GW2 is a great game, and I still have a lot of fun playing it when I can.
I just don’t think the LS mass produced temporary content love fest is a good selling point to try to talk someone new into playing it. I don’t know if pushing out expansion packs would be better or not. I just know that many gamers prefer quality over quantity.
Which is all I was ever posting about.
New players are what drives the cash shop, and you get new players from…drum roll please… box sales.
Um, there’s an argument on the forums about how the Queensdale champ train is bad for new players… but there aren’t any new players because there hasn’t been an expansion? Box sales have definitely slowed down, but the game does not depend on box sales to survive.
Anet gives players frequent reason to return to the game to see what’s going on. The B2P model means that any of the nearly four million people who bought the game can come back at any time, and the way the game works it’s easy to pick up again no matter how long you’ve been away.
The sub model “locks” players into the game by penalizing them for going away, and the psychological effect of the sub means that they feel bad if they don’t log in for an extended period. Gear resets and such enforce this by making them essentially start over every so often. GW2 was designed around an entirely different mindset, the casual player.
The LS also penalizes players for going away by missing the story, AP, unique collectibles, unique gem store purchases, unique skins, time gated content locks. Most sub games you have access to the entire game you pay for. Both have pros and cons.
I really wish I had the metrics to base a discussion upon, but I don’t. I could say that less than 100k of the players that bought the game still play or will ever come back or I could say that every single one that bought the game will come back. All any of us have are anecdotal accounts of our own experiences.
I rolled Devona’s Rest originally. I watched that server go from being highly populated and active to watching it die a little more each month of the LS. I never seen the people come back. I’m now on BP watching it do the same exact thing as DR did.