Guild Wars 2

Linken.6345:

Currently Molten Furnace Fractal has only Mithril Ore nodes and those are the only source of Azurite Crystals.

cant you combine them into orbs?

Sadly no.

This is either an over site or poor design.

Your choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

Was obtainable from a dungeon.

No longer obtainable.

Some people stocked up on orbs.

You didn’t obviously.

Grind for gold.

Good Luck.

butch.8136:

^ Though there are others who enjoy JP’s. And there has been a new zone already. A bit of everything for everyone.

Wondering why you are losing new and veteran players? Wondering how you can attract new players and keep your veterans?

Change your paradigm

Here’s the thing…..it isn’t failing.

It didn’t fail with the uproar over Ascended, “Anet is turning GW2 into a WoW clone!!!”.

It didn’t fail because of the Living World/Story.

It didn’t fail with the umpteenth balance patch to (insert profession here).

They read the forums, they institute changes (not always logical changes, granted), they actively ask for our feedback. Believe it or not, they care about the game more than we do.

I’m not saying not to give feedback. Be constructive, realistic, clear, and concise.

Feedback doesn’t always need to be validated.

Unless individual players each bought multiple copies of GW2, there has been at the very least 3 million players at one time or another taking into account sales from the China release. Whether or not there were ever 3 million active players concurrently is another question.

It would seem there would also have to be some sort of exit survey for players who had left the game, otherwise they would have no information on why they left the game in order to craft a NPE to better retain players who had left. Unless they are employing psychics…which could be entirely possible I suppose. It is also likely they gleaned some information from the forums from exit posts (which some forum posters dislike for some reason). I would also guess they had play testers who they asked questions of and who may have filled out surveys. It’s just easier to quantify results by using some form of standardized feedback.

There is no evidence of a quantifiable amount of players that were asked, or who left because of an unpleasant early experience, that was released by Anet. Just that player retention was not where they wanted it to be. An assumption would be that new player retention was lower than veteran player attrition, which would cause a shrinking player base. To be fair, it is easier to rework current systems with available resources than to add swathes of new content for veteran players and that it is more profitable to attract new players than to retain veteran players… although I am fairly certain they would like to do both. Or not, who knows.

flasbang.5102:

Glory.1493:

here is the figures from google trends compare to other major mmo on the market

How did you get that chart?

It’s from Google Trends. It graphs how many times terms are searched for from Google users.

Anyone can make their own using their own parameters with the tools available at the website. Just type in what you want to see trends on into the search bar at the top.

https://www.google.com/trends/

Phineas Poe.3018:

killcannon.2576:

The only reason to keep veteran players around is to populate the world and make it seem like a bustling, active game.

With the Megaservers, that is not quite as important any longer.

And, let’s be honest here, you’ll be back. Maybe not next month, or even two, but vets will always come back and check out the new content….because it’s free.

I don’t think that criticism is fair. The megaservers are actually one of the things that I liked most about the April feature pack. Even if it did ruin server-organized events like the world event train and threw everyone in with everybody, it has made lesser tread ground more populated and has offered players outside of Sanctum of Rall to participate in our Teq kills.

And I am not in any way insinuating that I will not return. I would be more than happy to come back provided these types of overhauls get implemented. But that’s kind of the point: I’m not coming back unless they are.

I think something else needs to be established here: I love horizontal progression and I enjoy having a finish line. I don’t want new tiers beyond ascended added into the game, nor do I necessarily need a new carrot to chase. I would certainly like new dungeons, fractals, and world raids to be added into the game … but who wouldn’t?

The reason why I’ve quit is not because I have nothing to work on. The reason why I’ve quit is because the path to get what I want is abusive with rewards randomly delegated. I cannot stress this point enough: the RNG has to go.

To apply a little more context, going after legendaries would be a lot more enjoyable if the process to obtaining your precursor involved an actual quest line. It can be long. It can be incremental and require crafting. And it can be challenging. But standing at the forge dumping in hundreds of gold is equated to rolling a pair of dice. There’s no personal achievement in that.

I agree with you. There needs to be progression and there needs to be meaningful, long term, small group based content based around skill and relying on your fellow party members that is fun and not zergy.

But…. lowering the common denominator of the player base makes more money and it’s a lot easier.

The only thing that Anet has ever truly listened to is money. Once this current direction runs it course and shows them that it will not improve profits or player retention in it’s western market, the players may see some actual game changing systems put into place that will improve the game in a meaningful way. Of course they will probably come tied to some sort of purchase model, but if you like the game then it’s worth it.

Vote with your wallet and your time.

Phineas Poe.3018:

killcannon.2576:

New players aren’t disillusioned or jaded and are more inclined to get the shinies. Older players are more inclined to move on regardless of the amount, or type, of content available.

It’s not just about the type of content or the amount of it, though. It’s about how said content doles out rewards. Fractal skins are entirely RNG. There is no other way to acquire them but dumb luck. The same goes for Tequatl’s Horde.

And while there’s the tired argument that RNG lengthens play time, that it lengthens the grind, the truth is that the RNG is why I’m quitting and that a token system would have kept me around.

That’s the kicker.

The only reason to keep veteran players around is to populate the world and make it seem like a bustling, active game.

With the Megaservers, that is not quite as important any longer.

And, let’s be honest here, you’ll be back. Maybe not next month, or even two, but vets will always come back and check out the new content….because it’s free.

Phineas Poe.3018:

killcannon.2576:

Vets don’t make the company money.

I am pretty sure that ArenaNet made a lot of money off me. And they will continue to do so if they implement these changes. But not anymore until they do.

And for every new player they will make more.

New players aren’t disillusioned or jaded and are more inclined to get the shinies. Older players are more inclined to move on regardless of the amount, or type, of content available.

Newcomers just generate more income per player. It’s part of the b2p, f2p paradigm.

Keeping veteran players is not and never will be a priority in b2p or f2p games. New players are much more likely to invest money in Gems for new character slots, bag space, and convenience items. Vets don’t make the company money.

It’s always about the cash. The rest is smoke, mirrors, and empty words.

First off……..Congrats on insulting the forum community in the first paragraph of your post as I’m sure this will foster a greater degree of respect for your topic of choice among what you describe as “refuse”.

Second….. WvW forums.

Esports yay!

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

So he made up the numbers about both the forum and the playerbase? That’s your answer? Even though I’ve heard other devs say similar things in the past?

You asked for a quote. I gave you a quote. Now you’re saying the quote is spin. Gotcha.

Uh, you gave me a quote from one game, from a specific time frame, from one forum from that game, and again….he only mentioned posters…not actual users.

If we take the 1% rule into account, and we use his statement that there are only slightly more forum posters than raiders, then we get a very broad idea of how many people are using the forums. that would be more than 10% multiplied by 8 or 9 which gives you 80 or 90 percent of all players use the forums to some extent. So…I’m not sure what you’re trying to get me to accept here.

And yes, devs do indeed lie sometimes. No I don’t have a percentage, and yes we have discussed it before.

Right, I found the most recent quote by the most recent dev that I remember off the top of my head. By now we come to devs lie sometimes, so what’s the point of finding any other quote.

You choose to believe more people raid, I believe that’s not the case. I think tons and tons of people bang around in the open world, often solo, never join a guild, no idea of the meta game at all, or even the concept that there is a meta game. They kill stuff in the easiest content, and feel like they’re doing something. That’s enough for a whole lot of people.

Anet themselves have said in the past (and no I can’t find the quote) that by percentage, only a small percentage of players ever attempted the more difficult content in Guild Wars 1. Do you really think years later I can find the quote?

Even if I did, would it matter if you’re just going to say they’re lying anyway?

Not sure why you are talking about raiding or why you segued over to it, but whatever.

We were speaking about people who use the forums and how posters =/= everyone who uses the forums.

Anyway, done for tonight, and way off topic.

OT: Anet, buy a thesaurus.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

So he made up the numbers about both the forum and the playerbase? That’s your answer? Even though I’ve heard other devs say similar things in the past?

You asked for a quote. I gave you a quote. Now you’re saying the quote is spin. Gotcha.

Uh, you gave me a quote from one game, from a specific time frame, from one forum from that game, and again….he only mentioned posters…not actual users.

If we take the 1% rule into account, and we use his statement that there are only slightly more forum posters than raiders, then we get a very broad idea of how many people are using the forums. that would be more than 10% multiplied by 8 or 9 which gives you 80 or 90 percent of all players use the forums to some extent. So…I’m not sure what you’re trying to get me to accept here.

And yes, devs do indeed lie sometimes. No I don’t have a percentage, and yes we have discussed it before.

Vayne.8563:

@killcannon, read this link and tell me your impressions.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

This isn’t the first time I’ve read or heard comments just like this.

I think the guy is trying to defend the company’s move away from raids and towards that weird pseudo raid/ instance thing they got going on now is what I think. It’s nothing new certainly, they’ve been saying the same thing since 2012 (like the link you posted) but they continued to produce instanced content.

It’s hard to make that content, and I’m sure that they have scaled back quite a bit in their personnel department and have limited resources. It’s spin.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

The Ghostcrawler quote was actually about Sunwell Plateau (one of the longest and hardest raids from BC era WoW) and has since been taken out of context more often than not to downplay the inclusion of difficult instanced content. Only 2 percent of the player base actually completed the raid (before the next expansion came out…and the expansion followed shortly on the heels of Sunwell Plateau), but he never gave stats on how many actually tried or attempted the content. It was one of the reasons given for the easier raiding content in WotLK.

Many people at the time were leery of starting up yet another raid when an expansion was releasing soon, which would institute yet another jump in power levels almost immediately just from completing 5 man instances and open world quest chains. It spoke more about timing of the release rather than the type of content itself. If 2 percent ever actually only played the content, they just wouldn’t include it.

Well Lotro stopped making raids altogether and they said 2% of the population raided, period end stop. This was very recent, within the last couple of months. But he said the forums didn’t reflect that at all.

They’ve been saying it since 2012. And guess what…they keep making raids.

Game developers, go figure. shrug.

The Ghostcrawler quote was actually about Sunwell Plateau (one of the longest and hardest raids from BC era WoW) and has since been taken out of context more often than not to downplay the inclusion of difficult instanced content. Only 2 percent of the player base actually completed the raid (before the next expansion came out…and the expansion followed shortly on the heels of Sunwell Plateau), but he never gave stats on how many actually tried or attempted the content. It was one of the reasons given for the easier raiding content in WotLK.

Many people at the time were leery of starting up yet another raid when an expansion was releasing soon, which would institute yet another jump in power levels almost immediately just from completing 5 man instances and open world quest chains. It spoke more about timing of the release rather than the type of content itself. If 2 percent ever actually only played the content, they just wouldn’t include it.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

DarcShriek.5829:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vayne.8563:

The 15% of the people who follow forums and reddit.

Source? Or did you make it up?

Anyone who isn’t trying to be completely disingenuous would know that I’m not talking about an exact number. We know from many many games over a very long time that somwhere between 10-20% of the player base ever visit the forums. The fact is so well known and been said so many times in so many places that I didn’t really think I needed to spell it out.

But I can if you haven’t heard it before. Most people who play games just play games. An overwhelming majority. They don’t visit forums. They don’t visit build sites. They don’t even visit Dulfy or the wiki.

We’re the small under 20%. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s what it is. Most people buy a game, play it and don’t think very deeply about the experience.

Ahum…starting to push the credulity barrier a bit there. If you got the stats to back up that claim would love to see em.

http://interactive.usc.edu/2013/04/13/gdc-talk-the-applied-value-of-player-psychology/

This is a good place to start.

Different types of gamers. Console vs. PC.

Yep, it is a different type of gamer. But over the years we’ve heard quotes from devs and stuff that blow our minds. LIke x percent of people have never been to a trait screen, and stuff like that.

The biggest percentage, yes, I don’t have an exact percentage, of gamers are really casual. THey go to work, they come home, they pop on the game in the way people used to drop down in front of TVs. Even most computer gamers.

The thing is, this is not one source that says X. This is gleaned from maybe ten, twelve years of following gaming in many interviews and having read many papers. There’s also the 80/20 rule which you can google. There’s all sorts of varations on it. 20% of the population makes almost all the posts. Everyone else is just a lurker. I know those stats are true from a forum I moderated where I got to see the stats.

The number of posts and probably even views on these forums wouldn’t come close to accounting for the size of the user base. Just stop and think about it. Look at reddit for almost any game and compare the number of members to the number of players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_

It’s the one percent rule and doesn’t make any statement on how many actually use forums, just how many participate.

More and more companies use forums or social media to connect to their consumer base, not less. It speaks to it’s importance, not it’s mediocrity.

But I still ran a Guild Wars 2 forum and I know the percentage of posters from first hand experience. Feel free to call me a liar if you want. And the amount of people posting, even with a large number of lurkers don’t add up to the number of people I suspect are playing the game.

But I’ve been through this conversation many times in many forums in the past. This isn’t the first time. I’m not usually the guy who finds and provides links because I’m lazy. I’m okay if you don’t want to believe me. Really. I’m fine with that.

It’s not about believing or disbelieving you. It’s about using made up statistics to back up an agenda. The same way that some would say " You don’t speak for everyone" “You are a very small minority, everyone is actually very happy” to refute someone who has an issue with something.

I have no clue how many individuals use forums or look at forums or watch the news, and I would wager neither do you. Anet knows how many use these forums, and it seems to be an important tool for them to connect with their player base. Downplaying this forum’s users and their importance does all of us a disservice.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

DarcShriek.5829:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vayne.8563:

The 15% of the people who follow forums and reddit.

Source? Or did you make it up?

Anyone who isn’t trying to be completely disingenuous would know that I’m not talking about an exact number. We know from many many games over a very long time that somwhere between 10-20% of the player base ever visit the forums. The fact is so well known and been said so many times in so many places that I didn’t really think I needed to spell it out.

But I can if you haven’t heard it before. Most people who play games just play games. An overwhelming majority. They don’t visit forums. They don’t visit build sites. They don’t even visit Dulfy or the wiki.

We’re the small under 20%. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s what it is. Most people buy a game, play it and don’t think very deeply about the experience.

Ahum…starting to push the credulity barrier a bit there. If you got the stats to back up that claim would love to see em.

http://interactive.usc.edu/2013/04/13/gdc-talk-the-applied-value-of-player-psychology/

This is a good place to start.

Different types of gamers. Console vs. PC.

Yep, it is a different type of gamer. But over the years we’ve heard quotes from devs and stuff that blow our minds. LIke x percent of people have never been to a trait screen, and stuff like that.

The biggest percentage, yes, I don’t have an exact percentage, of gamers are really casual. THey go to work, they come home, they pop on the game in the way people used to drop down in front of TVs. Even most computer gamers.

The thing is, this is not one source that says X. This is gleaned from maybe ten, twelve years of following gaming in many interviews and having read many papers. There’s also the 80/20 rule which you can google. There’s all sorts of varations on it. 20% of the population makes almost all the posts. Everyone else is just a lurker. I know those stats are true from a forum I moderated where I got to see the stats.

The number of posts and probably even views on these forums wouldn’t come close to accounting for the size of the user base. Just stop and think about it. Look at reddit for almost any game and compare the number of members to the number of players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_

It’s the one percent rule and doesn’t make any statement on how many actually use forums, just how many participate.

More and more companies use forums or social media to connect to their consumer base, not less. It speaks to it’s importance, not it’s mediocrity.

DarcShriek.5829:

killcannon.2576:

DarcShriek.5829:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vayne.8563:

The 15% of the people who follow forums and reddit.

Source? Or did you make it up?

Anyone who isn’t trying to be completely disingenuous would know that I’m not talking about an exact number. We know from many many games over a very long time that somwhere between 10-20% of the player base ever visit the forums. The fact is so well known and been said so many times in so many places that I didn’t really think I needed to spell it out.

But I can if you haven’t heard it before. Most people who play games just play games. An overwhelming majority. They don’t visit forums. They don’t visit build sites. They don’t even visit Dulfy or the wiki.

We’re the small under 20%. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s what it is. Most people buy a game, play it and don’t think very deeply about the experience.

Ahum…starting to push the credulity barrier a bit there. If you got the stats to back up that claim would love to see em.

http://interactive.usc.edu/2013/04/13/gdc-talk-the-applied-value-of-player-psychology/

This is a good place to start.

Different types of gamers. Console vs. PC.

Do you have a link to back that up? I hate to break it to you, but the lecture was about PC gamers.

There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.

Direct quote from the article you linked " During this talk, Rigby and Skinner presented a division of AAA XBox games into two tiers"

The blind indeed.

DarcShriek.5829:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vayne.8563:

The 15% of the people who follow forums and reddit.

Source? Or did you make it up?

Anyone who isn’t trying to be completely disingenuous would know that I’m not talking about an exact number. We know from many many games over a very long time that somwhere between 10-20% of the player base ever visit the forums. The fact is so well known and been said so many times in so many places that I didn’t really think I needed to spell it out.

But I can if you haven’t heard it before. Most people who play games just play games. An overwhelming majority. They don’t visit forums. They don’t visit build sites. They don’t even visit Dulfy or the wiki.

We’re the small under 20%. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s what it is. Most people buy a game, play it and don’t think very deeply about the experience.

Ahum…starting to push the credulity barrier a bit there. If you got the stats to back up that claim would love to see em.

http://interactive.usc.edu/2013/04/13/gdc-talk-the-applied-value-of-player-psychology/

This is a good place to start.

Different types of gamers. Console vs. PC.

Edit: I would believe that 15% or less of console gamers use forums to discuss games.

I also believe that out of all the people who come to these forums only 15% or less actively participate in discussion or create topics. Most just lurk.

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Vayne.8563:

The 15% of the people who follow forums and reddit.

Source? Or did you make it up?

Anyone who isn’t trying to be completely disingenuous would know that I’m not talking about an exact number. We know from many many games over a very long time that somwhere between 10-20% of the player base ever visit the forums. The fact is so well known and been said so many times in so many places that I didn’t really think I needed to spell it out.

But I can if you haven’t heard it before. Most people who play games just play games. An overwhelming majority. They don’t visit forums. They don’t visit build sites. They don’t even visit Dulfy or the wiki.

We’re the small under 20%. You don’t have to believe it. But that’s what it is. Most people buy a game, play it and don’t think very deeply about the experience.

Ahum…starting to push the credulity barrier a bit there. If you got the stats to back up that claim would love to see em.

moonstarmac.4603:

I do want to state that as of now only level 1-15 areas, the PVP lobby, and main cities are on the Mega Server. Most Guild Missions are in 15+ areas which are not. That means you’re getting the old system with overflows in these areas.

you might want to check your info before posting.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Megaserver-Rollout-Update

Adamantium.3682:

Travis the Terrible.4739:

Lalangamena.3694:

you are right and you are wrong,

you are right because GW2 is not GW.
to tell you the truth, i didnt like GW1, the fully instanced world, the PVP only endgame, and the lack of jump, drove me off GW1.

gw1 has/had more endgame than gw2 does currently. srsly.

The only content in this game I would consider end-game is fractals lvl30+

This is silly. Just because you would not consider any of the explorable dungeons, Teq, the Wurm, or other level 80 events “end game content” doesn’t mean they’re not there.

Those are not level 80 events.

Nage.1520:

Strayhand.8216:

“Just last time I checked they had subscriptions, don’t like me no subscriptions (I guess GW2 has forever ruined me).”

Taking an example from this topic, this is like saying McDonalds spoiled you, and now you are not gonna pay for normal food anymore. How exactly did GW2 spoil you if you don’t find it fun…?

I guess you missed the part where some people find this game not only fun, but more fun than other existing MMOs, subscription or no subscription.

I have yet to see anyone who would pay to play GW2 as a subscription game.

One of the top reasons given by players who like this game has consistently been that it is buy to play.

Rather telling.

Lankybrit.4598:

I’m thinking of maybe coming back too. The two things that I didn’t enjoy were:

1. Diminishing returns of farming items
2. Dungeons were hard and not rewarding

Are these still the case? Has anything been done about them?

BTW: I logged into a character for the first time in ages lately, and had tons of in game mail. Got tons of PvP items and stuff. As I don’t PvP, what should I do with it?

DR is still around, but “farming” has changed. Players now farm Champion Spawns usually in either Queensdale or Frostgorge.

Dungeons are more rewarding now, but generally just for gold, not in the “Go to this dungeon to get these certain items”. Most people now know the mechanics of dungeons and corner stack to exploit the mechanical weaknesses of the game to trivialize the content.

Click on deposit to deposit pvp rewards in a pvp rewards locker located in the SpvP lobby.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Wildstar? This will only give you back the feel of another MMO that fails.

Global cooldown MMOs with visuals worse than WoW itself? Ain’t nobody got hope for that…

Guess I’m a nobody then.

TankinJankins.3276:

Nage.1520:

TankinJankins.3276:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

TankinJankins.3276:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

How about we have now ascended gear you have to grind for weeks for tiny stat boosts.

PvE is more or less the same with some more zerg.

PvP is the same old same old.

So, the game’s PvE is still nonexistant, and the PvP still unbalanced?

We have two giant zerg raids in the open world, which probably equals ANets idea of endgame (rolleyes) and bi-weekly updates for what ANet thinks is a story (can’t roll my eyes that fast).

PvP is the same old just with more warrior.

I think I’d rather tear my toenails out than to be forced to play this game, how do you manage?

By having fun. That’s what some of us do. It’s quite clear, to me anyway, that fun is different for different people. You don’t find this game fun, and I don’t find World of Warcrap fun.

That’s sort of what makes the world go round.

I don’t find CURRENT wow fun at all, and nobody should.

Wildstar should be bringing back that old BC challenge and feel.

TankinJankins.3276:

I bought GW2 on release, grinded to 80, and tried out the endgame. And while the levelling was fun, the game featured no endgame PvE, exotic gear that you have to grind for hours for tiny stat boosts, and a completely broken dungeon system. The PvP itself was so unbalanced as to not be any fun, along with no gear to be earned in structured PvP whatsoever. Have they added ANYTHING worth hitting level 80 in the year and a half?

No max level end game has been added. I don’t expect it ever will be.

I like the idea if the servers were populated enough. Sadly they are not.

Most Champion level events go undone in areas outside of Queensdale and Frostgorge due to lack of participation in those areas on the majority of servers.

Ideally they should randomize most events, including world boss spawns along with their locations.

It probably means that you just frequent less than secure websites and they have put a cookie on your comp that tracks your web history. It’s a targeted attack just for you.

Clear your cookies and run a malware scan.

Deified.7520:

killcannon.2576:

Would increase inflation in top tier goods by more than 250%. New players may as well not even bother with the game.

The problem (or core of) with the economy now is that almost the entire reward system is gold based.

Something I notice is that a lot of people say that dynamic rewards just aren’t good enough. It was something I was trying to solve with an increase in gold reward.

Also why would it increase the inflation of top tier goods? Sorry I’m not too familiar with economics.

An increase in the availability of gold would cause the value of it to decrease, therefor things bought with it increase in gold cost. This would include gems. It’s a type of vertical progression…but with the economy.

There needs to be a move away from the gold gets you everything approach to the economy and a move towards doing content gets you rewards. For example instead of increasing gold/karma/ or experience on successful world completions after the first, just give people a precursor, or a couple ascended pieces. Or some other unique but equivalent set, or rare dyes, or unique dance moves, or emotes, or etc etc etc.

Would fulfill the same need in the player base but not affect the economy too much……..except for the people who are currently hoarding the precursors.

Morrigan.2809:

The Priory is a bunch of scholars and the Order of Whispers is a bunch of secretive spies. Can’t really see them opening their doors to the masses to socialize.

We do have 5 huge racial cities though :P

That are not centrally located. It’s why no one but RP’ers bothered with them before. With the way the WP system works it behooves players to make their home base as central to the current world as possible.

As far as lore goes….Scarlet.

Would increase inflation in top tier goods by more than 250%. New players may as well not even bother with the game.

The problem (or core of) with the economy now is that almost the entire reward system is gold based.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

No. Gear is level-gated. You can’t wear Level 80 gear unless you are, in fact, Level 80 naturally. Ascended is all Level 80, I believe. Exotics start in the 60s, I think?

Level 62 for exotics. Odd level to start at I think, I wonder why.

Depends upon the “who” you want to catch up to.

How long to get best in slot equipment to catch up with the top tiered WvW/PVE players? Months if you play consistently, or shorter if you want to buy your way there with gold. Also to get enough WvW experience to catch up can take quite a bit of time depending on your play time.

SPvP there is no catching up to do.

At a disadvantage: Not in PVE, as long as you have no desire to be part of speed run groups, or possibly high level fractal groups. WvW possibly, depending on play style. Solo/Small Group/Tactical Roamer? yes. Zergling? no

Paffus Piffus.9430:

Nat.4029:

I find Divinity’s Reach much more accessible than LA. Two WPs are right beside each other and you can get to everything you need in that small radius. I’ve always used it.

And I care nothing about the Mystic Toilet. Kitten that stupid thing!

I couldn’t get into the Laurel trader/repair area in DR, there was a force field/barrier blocking my path? What I am I missing as I would like to use that place as my new hub.

That area is behind a pay wall.

thefantasticg.3984:

IndigoSundown.5419:

thefantasticg.3984:

Nat.4029:

I find Divinity’s Reach much more accessible than LA. Two WPs are right beside each other and you can get to everything you need in that small radius. I’ve always used it.

And I care nothing about the Mystic Toilet. Kitten that stupid thing!

Ha. I, on the other hand, love the mystic toilet and its’ awesome ability to spit precursors at me like beads at mardi gras to a big set of DDDs hanging out for all the world to gaze upon for the cost of plastic pellets on a string.

Instead of AFK’ing and doing my thing in LA I’ll just use up a spot on my BL since it’s mostly empty most of the time anyway.

You heard it here first! The destruction of LA is another ploy to get players into WvW!

[/kidding aside]

Sure, it’ll get me in there but I won’t be participating in the WvW. I’ll just be taking up a spot on the map.

Regardless of whether or not anyone actually does anything there, they will most likely use this as PR.

“Our WvW population has tripled in the last month!!”.

Expect the headlines.

Enokitake.1742:

killcannon.2576:

And I say again, it is the same thing. “Depending on which skills you are using” Can be replaced with “Depending on what gear you are using” “I have to do X content to get this skill” “I have to do X content to get this gear” Each one leads to being able to do more content, more efficiently.

Wrong. Non-equivalents due to nature of their function.

The skill is active. The gear is passive. You equip the gear and forget about it. You have to ACTIVATE the actual skill in combat. You might. You might not. But it has no effect if you don’t use it, unless it comes with a passive effect (see signets).

If I hit you with spiked gloves my strike will hit harder… but it will deal no damage at all unless I choose to hit you. The choice to hit is a skill. The glove is a passive gear-piece.

You may be able to overcome the hit with a block that negates all damage (active skill), a dodge that means it never lands (active skill), or a helmet that absorbs the spikes (passive) but those aren’t categorically the same function of skill mitigation.

Your argument is really lacking.

killcannon.2576:

Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles or how you fight the battle, but with the mechanics in how you got to the battle in the first place. Was the player always able to fight this battle from the beginning, or did they have to acquire things in order to fight it? In both cases from your examples, they had to travel vertically to get there.

We already said unlocking skills is vertical unless you’re given every skill at the start. So you’re arguing a moot point you already agreed on to boost a bad argument.

You can’t progress past the battle if you don’t have the damage from your skills AND your passive stat gear in … World of warcraft, Aion, Ragnarok Online, Tera… So unlocking is a vertical, gear is also a vertical…

But the choice of how you execute skills is a horizontal which also determines win or loss, but you WON’T EVER beat the DPS meter if your item skill is -500 points under required item score, no matter what combination of skills you use.

killcannon.2576:

If Horizontal, then I could get there whenever I want, without doing anything extra. For you it’s about “How much?” or “How steep?” When instead it’s a binary choice.

If EVERY game has BOTH aspects, then the ONLY question is HOW MUCH of each aspect do they have.

It isn’t a binary because you can’t play a video game that doesn’t have both aspects unless its an RNG version of rock paper scissors or a fighting game with all characters pre-unlocked.

Name a purely vertical video game, where any skill combination makes no difference.

Now name a purely horizontal video game, where any gear combination makes no difference (it has to have a gear system… no “street fighter”).

You’ll find both somewhat difficult. You can play with semantics as much as you want to, your argument is still terrible. Because its not binary and you know that. It’s categorized by which system takes precedence.

You’re still trying to discuss the difference between skill based and gear based combat. Those don’t determine progression. They are a symptom of the degree of it and whether a designer chose to use gear based combat. Not even sure what you are going on about any more. You can have entirely skill based combat and it could still have vertical progression to get to the fight in the first place.

I won’t have to find any examples. My whole argument has been about whether a mmorpg could function without VP. I said there were no good examples of such, and it would not succeed without some form of VP. As yet, I have seen no examples of such.

Ashen.2907:

killcannon.2576:

Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles

I’m not so sure about that part (or perhaps I misunderstand your point there). An objective increase in character power level tied to the outcome of a particular battle is not all that uncommon a form of progression in my experience.

“You must defeat mega-villain-monster-man in order to get the +1 pinky-ring of awesomehood,” is a classic approach to character progression dating back to table top DnD. The outcome of the battle determines whether or not your character experiences vertical progression.

Yes, the reward is tied to progression. And the combat mechanics could be influenced by the slope of the vertical progression. But combat mechanics themselves do not make something VP or HP. They are a symptom, not a cause.

Progression is about how you get places. If you replace +1 pinky ring of awsomehood with Skill " Protection from Sri Lankan Face Ferrets for 5 seconds", and you know that later you’re going to be fighting Face Ferrets, the skill is just as VP as the +1 ring.
Both are VP, just couched differently. In both cases you will need things or certain things will become easier if you have the McGuffin.

With a HP approach, you need neither and used nothing other than your own skill to get to the fight. The reward is then anything you don’t need to get to the next fight, let’s say for instance a spell to make your fireballs cyan instead or orange.

Progression is the journey to get to the fight, and may color how the fight is fought and the reward. “What do I need to do to get to the dragon?”

Mungrul.9358:

You want innovation and meaningful gameplay, you shouldn’t be playing commercial MMOs.
Judge Banks is right, the modern MMO is nothing more than a callous exercise in separating customers from their cash.
The interesting stuff is happening in games like Dark Souls, DayZ or Rust.

If you’re disillusioned with Guild Wars 2, I can tell you now that you’ll be just as disappointed with Wildstar or The Elder Scrolls Online or Neverwinter or World of Warcraft or Everquest Landmark / Next. They all, to a man, are designed not with the interest of the player at heart. The only interest they cater to is that of share-holders.

Modern MMO “Progression” systems, be they horizontal OR vertical, aren’t designed with fun in mind.
They’re designed as addictive feedback systems.
ArenaNet is the pusher and the players are the junkies.

Except, those games use the same progression systems to make you buy more games like them. It’s not just MMO’s, it’s all games.

Enokitake.1742:

killcannon.2576:

Sorry, but you’re the one who changed the yard stick.

You’re saying it’s ONLY VP when it’s gear, and NOT VP when it isn’t. Even if both amount to the exact same thing.

If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based.

You gave an example of gear based Vertical progression, which is only a type not it’s entirety.

Whether it is shallow VP or steep is irrelevant.

Wrong. Read again.

I didn’t say its ONLY VP if its gear… I said its VP if its ONLY gear. Unless you’re playing a game where the only factor is what weapon you have and its passive attack power, you’re not playing a purely vertical game. All games have both horizontal/verticle elements.

What defines the category is which one primarily determines the outcome of competition.

" If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based."

You just said EXACTLY, what I said when I typed…

“Yes, You may have to UNLOCK said abilities in horizontal games, making them slightly vertical in nature depending one what requirement is placed on acquisition but…”

So… ? Again, it is which one primarily determines the outcome of competition.

And I say again, it is the same thing. “Depending on which skills you are using” Can be replaced with “Depending on what gear you are using” “I have to do X content to get this skill” “I have to do X content to get this gear” Each one leads to being able to do more content, more efficiently.

Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles or how you fight the battle, but with the mechanics in how you got to the battle in the first place. Was the player always able to fight this battle from the beginning, or did they have to acquire things in order to fight it? In both cases from your examples, they had to travel vertically to get there. If Horizontal, then I could get there whenever I want, without doing anything extra. For you it’s about “How much?” or “How steep?” When instead it’s a binary choice.

Although connected, combat systems do not determine progression. It is camouflage.

Yep, thanks for the zerg and multicolored light show. It’s like you packed Queensdale and Frostgorge into one little package.

Like the loot though.

Enokitake.1742:

Oh… and almost no game is purely vertical or purely horizontal. Even games like mass effect, half life, counter strike, battlefield, etc… have both arguably vertical and horizontal elements.

Yes, they compliment each other.

Enokitake.1742:

Because people in this thread keep trying to change the yardstick to fail at making points:

Vertical Progression… is most widely/commonly defined in the gaming industry as gear or level based differences in player ability. See Aion, Tera, World of Warcraft, which make you swap out entire gear sets each patch to retain competitive viability even if you used the same skills.

Horizontal Progression is most widely/commonly defined in the gaming industry as ability/skill/attribute combination based differences in player ability. See GW1 (to some degree), see LOL, see EVE, which made you swap out skill combinations (aka builds) to retain competitive viability even if you used the same gear.

Yes, You may have to UNLOCK said abilities in horizontal games, making them slightly vertical in nature depending one what requirement is placed on acquisition but…

The horizontal games still shy away from gear for power and more towards making the result of combat or competition, be it pve or pvp, a result of “what skills are you using, and how are you using them”, and NOT “what are you wearing, and how much power/critical rate/critical damage/vitality/PVP damage/PVP defense”. That’s where vertical games are.

Horizontal games rely primarily on active skill/experience/combination to show differences in power. Vertical games rely primarily on passive effects, such as gear or level based statistics to show differences in power.

Stop trying to be clever by changing the yardstick, when everyone here has made it pretty clear they’ve played enough MMO’s to know better, RPG based or not.

Also: Any game which shows a high degree of power creep which can not be eliminated by using the game’s original development skills wisely, leans toward being a vertical progression game.

Sorry, but you’re the one who changed the yard stick.

You’re saying it’s ONLY VP when it’s gear, and NOT VP when it isn’t. Even if both amount to the exact same thing.

If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based.

You gave an example of gear based Vertical progression, which is only a type not it’s entirety.

Whether it is shallow VP or steep is irrelevant.

Ashen.2907:

killcannon.2576:

Was GW2 at release a “fun” game?

If yes, then would you still be playing it more than ten hours a week if they had not added a single thing to it?

Yes and yes.

It is additions to the game that led to a reduction in my play time.

Adding to a game need not be a matter of vertical progression. New sights to see, new monsters to kill, new stories to be experienced.

That is not to say that a game cannot, or will not, lose appeal with repetition. At one point in time I averaged 30-40 hours a week playing chess. Eventually I burned out. Giving me a gold star sticker after each match would not have made the game play more fun at a point when I could no longer even bear to look at my chess sets.

Who knows, those gold stars (assuming some value) might have enticed me to continue playing when I wasn’t having fun though, pretty much exactly as I said in my previous post. The carrot is there to encourage people to do something that isn’t sufficiently enjoyable for its own sake.

Unless that is what people enjoy in and of itself. I would say that the carrot in Chess is both to improve your own mind and to help one better understand others. The enjoyment comes from improving oneself and the challenge from like minded individuals. No?

Substance E.4852:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

Because you never asked a question? Just wanted to make a couple snarky one liners and not actually be called on it.

Apparently you define a casual as someone who has an inordinate amount of time to spend in game and are obsessively goal oriented , while a hardcore is someone who doesn’t and isn’t. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions. If your idea of EvE as HP is any indication, perhaps from there?

To be fair, you can’t grind skills in EvE. They are trained one by one, for as long as each tier takes. You don’t even need to be logged in to do it, just that your account is active.

While it’s VP in the sense that you do get stronger over time, it’s not the same as VP that requires active grinding to achieve the progression and therefor doesn’t limit your in game actions (which will mostly be grinding money anyway but for a completely different reason)

I agree. It’s a good example of how you can make character progression non grindy and more about choice than repetitive actions. The ships though….ugh.

Ashen.2907:

killcannon.2576:

How do you get players to play? Carrots.

You get people to play by making a fun game.

You keep them playing, when the game play itself is not sufficiently fun to keep them playing, by introducing psychological ploys intended to induce addiction like behavior in the players.

Progression, per the definition of the word, need not (though it can) involve movement toward an objective state of superiority such as increased stats. (example: acquiring a new set of armor whose stats are in no way superior to those of one’s existing armor is progression towards a goal of owning one of every armor skin in the game.)

Was GW2 at release a “fun” game?

If yes, then would you still be playing it more than ten hours a week if they had not added a single thing to it?

And I completely agree with you about progression. They shouldn’t have added blatant stat progression. Game just isn’t suited for it.

Obsidian.1328:

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

Because you never asked a question? Just wanted to make a couple snarky one liners and not actually be called on it.

Apparently you define a casual as someone who has an inordinate amount of time to spend in game and is obsessively goal oriented , while a hardcore is someone who doesn’t and isn’t. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions. If your idea of EvE as HP is any indication, perhaps from there?

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

Sigh.

Sand box mmorpg’s are the epitome of vertical progression systems. The people who play the most are the most powerful. EvE is a fine example of this. A skill based vertical progression system.

Thanks for bringing it back to my original statement as well. MMO means massive amounts of players.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
Who chases carrots more than anyone else? Hardcores, elitists, min maxers, grinders etc etc
Who populates the worlds to make them massive in the first place? Non casuals.
Who are MMOrpgs targeted at? People who will play a lot, or in GW2’s case, people who will also buy gold to shortcut the grind.

Thanks

Sigh

You think Eve is a vertical progression game? Yikes.

The fact that you think carrots is the way you get players to play just says you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Who chases carrots? casuals, achievement-hounds, farmers, and, yes, grinders.
Who populates these MMO’s nowadays? casuals mostly
Who are MMOrpg’s targeted at? casuals with money.

You need to learn your gamers.
Hard-cores are really just intense players; both in time investment and difficulty.
Elitists are simply the best hard-core gamers that like to flaunt it.
Min-maxers couldn’t give two poops about vertical progression, they just want the best stat combinations.

Your logic is flawed because you think that just because something is present is most games, then it must be intrinsic to it. That’s like saying since everyone sleeps during the night, sleeping must be inherent to nighttime. GG

And no, MMO doesn’t just mean massive amounts of players. Only the first “M” means that.

And yet….you still have not given a single mmorpg not based on vert progression to refute me. Even with my flawed logic.

EvE online is a classic example of vertical progression. Are you trying to say that a new player has all the same skills and abilities as one that has been playing for a year? No they don’t. Have to purchase skills to be at the same level as others? yes you do. Not horizontal progression.

lol casuals chasing carrots. seriously made me chuckle. smh

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

Sigh.

Sand box mmorpg’s are the epitome of vertical progression systems. The people who play the most are the most powerful. EvE is a fine example of this. A skill based vertical progression system.

Thanks for bringing it back to my original statement as well. MMO means massive amounts of players.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
Who chases carrots more than anyone else? Hardcores, elitists, min maxers, grinders etc etc
Who populates the worlds to make them massive in the first place? Non casuals.
Who are MMOrpgs targeted at? People who will play a lot, or in GW2’s case, people who will also buy gold to shortcut the grind.

Thanks