Guild Wars 2

tolunart.2095:

killcannon.2576:

You f2p’ers crack me up.

LOL

I subbed to Rift for two years. I played TERA and TOR for several months each before they were free. I tried FF (boring and my computer didn’t like to run it). I plan to preorder copies of ESO for my wife and I. I don’t mind paying for a good game, but I try to spend my money wisely.

Post-changeover, those games have suffered from less frequent, lower quality updates, and a tendency to push people towards the cash shop. The sub “benefits” are not worth giving them money every month for a game you can play for free. Picked up TSW on sale a few weeks ago and it’s a good game, but very clunky and small. It doesn’t feel like an MMO.

The last several years have shown that the sub model simply is not going to work. There are too many choices out there, companies have to come up with something different to keep players’ attention from wandering. Anet made their choice and it’s a good idea to avoid changing horses while halfway across the river.

So you’re saying you’re willing to pay a sub for a game as long as it’s high quality with enough content to keep you satisfied?

I look at the last few years and don’t see a failure of the sub model, instead I see a failure in game makers understanding how to keep players playing their game. I generally buy a game a month; sometimes a triple A title, sometimes a bargain indie, sometimes a steam sale. If a game can keep me occupied and playing I am more than willing to throw money at it, as long as it’s good.

Quality is what drives game purchases and keeps players coming back. The LS quality can’t be agreed upon by most people. It’s good, it’s bad, it’s grindy, it’s worthwhile….sounds like the introduction to a Tale of Two Cities. And that’s not a good thing for players to hear.

tolunart.2095:

killcannon.2576:

You failed to list MMO’s which count on continued main game sales to make money. Any mmo that can not continue strong sales will suffer.

Not sure what you’re talking about here. GW2 depends on cash shop sales to make money. If they went with a box sales model, there would be a monthly sub to fund development of expansions and the first expansion would have come before the end of 2013 to capture holiday sales or in the next month or two to compete with new releases.

This model is largely unsustainable, considering the recent MMOs like TSW, TOR, TERA, Rift that started out this way and then abandoned it for F2P/B2P with cash shop/sub options.

GW2 features biweekly releases because it keeps the game fresh in people’s minds. Instead of forgetting about it for 12-18 months and going back to play the expansion for a month, the majority of active players log in at least once a week to do the new content. The more they log in, the more chances they have to be redirected to the cash shop to buy the new shinies that were released with the new content. New content that comes every two weeks.

It’s not hard to figure out what they do and why they do it. You can choose to support it or not, but dev posts have made it clear that they have no interest in changing to a more traditional pace of content releases.

Sigh. It always pays to have a basic understanding of the medium.

The only thing that fuels cash shop sales is players. Are you buying new players in the cash shop?

MMO’s suffer from player churn, or simply put, player turnover where old players leave or move on or get bored and new players come in and take their place. Without box sales the player base gets smaller and smaller as old players move on or play less or have already bought everything they need from a cash shop like extra bank space, character slots, bags, what have you. Those are the base and big earners of cash shops in games. And older players, even if they haven’t moved on, stop buying them eventually.

New players are what drives the cash shop, and you get new players from…drum roll please… box sales.

As an aside, you are blaming the payment model for games failing or success. We can see plainly this just isn’t true. WoW makes more money in the western markets than almost all the f2p or b2p games combined. Both Rift and TOR are hybrid models, not f2p or b2p, which offer subscriptions as well as free to play. FFXIV is doing quite well as subscription based. It is more accurate to say that each of these games lost subscribers for different reasons based on their game play and not the payment model.

TOR lost subscribers because they couldn’t make up their mind if they were making a MMO or a sequel to KOTOR. Most players just bought it and played it as such and left after the story ended.

Rift was a direct competitor with WoW. Not much chance there, especially considering how similar the two games were.

TSW was too highbrow, quality game though.

Tera failed because it followed a normal progression model, had very little end game content, and was extremely easy to hit max level quickly.

In short, the games failed because of poor mmo mechanics or poor marketing choices, not the payment model. People are more than willing to pay a subscription for a quality game with good mechanics. You f2p’ers crack me up. People are willing to pay a subscription for an almost 10 year old game with dated graphics, but if you introduced a sub model here? The game would be a wasteland…so much for evolutionary.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

The game sold over 2 million copies with just the core content. Most people would agree that most of the core content was above average to excellent.

TBH, the LS just isn’t of the same caliber as the core content. And it has not attracted the sales that the original core content has, and has even pushed some people away.

Quality over quantity is the only solution here.

Edit: And add in a meaningful progression mechanic!

The problem with this logic is that you’re making the assumption that quality like the original stuff would attract more sales, but there’s no actual evidence for this.

Most computers games, almost all of them, sell most copies within 90 days of release. The only that that might drastically change the number of copies sold is an expansion, but that’s not because it’s necesssarily better content. It’s something extra to buy.

Most people who were interested in the game, bought it before it came out or when it came out. An overwhelming majority. Some people waited to see what others said, but a year down the road the largest percentage of people interested in the game have already bought it.

No matter what level of content you provide, there’s no real guarantee or proof that people who weren’t interested are going to suddenly become interested.

I managed a computer store for a very long time (and I was the game buyer as well) and this is completely normal for games…even popular ones. It’s a very very rare game that keeps selling three months after launch. A couple of games like Sim City or Warcraft 2, sure.

But again, out of all the games out there, it’s a tiny percentage.

I will never understand why people expect the internet at large to respect any type of claim of past experience in the real world. Unless I get faxed a resume and some references, three forms of id, and a genetic sample….it doesn’t matter. Let whatever post you make stand on it’s own. As far as I know you got fired from the job for making horrible decisions.

That being said.

You failed to list MMO’s which count on continued main game sales to make money. Any mmo that can not continue strong sales will suffer.

MMO’s sale and are marketed mostly and to the greatest effect by word of mouth.

All indications for success of an MMO come from quality of content first, then quantity of said content after. If quality falls off for additions to the game, the game suffers dramatically, because of word of mouth. You can have all the quantity of game play you want, won’t matter if it’s sub par, especially if it markedly so from the original.

Honestly though, I’m just going to stop here and let you google MMO Quality over Quantity

The game sold over 2 million copies with just the core content. Most people would agree that most of the core content was above average to excellent.

TBH, the LS just isn’t of the same caliber as the core content. And it has not attracted the sales that the original core content has, and has even pushed some people away.

Quality over quantity is the only solution here.

Edit: And add in a meaningful progression mechanic!

Raion.5280:

I wish Anet would address this. Still nothing.

To address it would be to admit it. To admit it would be going back on the numerous times they say the population is doing great, getting bigger. To say that the concurrent population is decreasing would cause a spiraling effect that would further decrease population if the solutions and statements were not handled well.

In other words, ain’t gonna happen until it doesn’t matter any longer. Although they are trying to address the underlying causes obliquely with CDI’s and the Dolyak Express.

MadDemon.7548:

Actually, I’m fairly certain that you can get sprockets withe the gift from the meta achievement, similar to the candy corn and crystals, so not as p2w as you would think…

Again, the argument is not the sprockets, but the pick. You can get most anything in game. Does it make it ok to then sell an item in the gem store that gives you a better chance at gems from ore nodes? Gold coins? ascended materials? precursor drops?

The value of whatever drops does not matter. Just that something extra drops. It creates a tier of players that can only be obtained through the gem store.

And this is in addition to creating tiers of gem store items in the exact same category.

Shakkara.2641:

killcannon.2576:

You are using sprockets in your argument. The example is a pickaxe that creates sprockets.

As stated earlier you are using the shifting sands logical fallacy. If the pick created gold coins instead of sprockets is that ok? Legendaries? Precursors? All these things are obtainable in game. The only difference is perception of what is worthwhile.

Your perception of worth is the logical fallacy. It is p2w. I’m not sure how I can make it any clearer.

I agree. While the current pick doesn’t YET have a signficant impact, it is a slippery slope. They also added mining nodes recently, and these things can get out of hand fast.

But what if we can pay for a bolt of damask farm in our home instance, and new mining picks that quadruple all the resources?

You’d expect stuff like that in P2W farmville games, but Anet seems to be heading that way too.

The impact doesn’t matter. It’s a binary system.

I am not arguing impact. In truth, adding the sprockets to the game in this manner won’t really affect anything except to make sprocket prices drop and be more available to everyone. Probably a good thing unless you were a sprocket hoarder or something.

I am arguing why perception of worth has no impact on if something is p2w or not.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

killcannon.2576

I’m not using a slippery slope argument.

To quote your earlier statement…

Yes, the sprockets are a small thing. So let’s just move the goal post a little further…then a little further…then a little more.

killcannon.2576

A game becomes pay to win as soon as you can buy things with money that are not available to everyone else in game through normal game play. It’s that simple. The game has always been pay to win to some extent, it just wasn’t very blunt about it.
Can I also get a pick in game through normal game play that has a bonus chance of spitting out sprockets? No? p2w.

Actually yes. Buy a regular pick, go to a Sprocket Node in a Home Instance.
Again, you can get them through normal game play… via said Sprocket Node. Or buying them off the TP if you really want them. All without having to pay a single Gem. Not P2W.

What the people who are arguing for keeping this and things like this in game are using is a shifting sands logical fallacy. You said it yourself, if it gave out gold coins…then it would be pay to win. Why? It spits out sprockets worth…you guessed it…money. It’s just not that much. But it’s the same exact thing as a pick that would spit out gold coins at your feet. The only thing that is different is a persons perception of what is worthwhile.
Which is a logical fallacy. This is not subjective.

I was using the absurdity of your Hyperbole to show sarcasm (which at 4AM in the morning, seemed a lot funnier to me. :P) Truth of the matter is, just about all ore nodes gives you gold. Just take whatever you mine and go sell it. Look! Gold!

Joking and sarcasm aside, you continue to ignore the fact that the materials gained by this can be, and will continue to be obtainable for those that have the time and put the effort in.
With this in mind, lets look over this, shall we?

Assuming a worst case scenario, the material in question, Sprockets, will no longer drop in the game from enemies (this is an unfounded assumption at the moment, but lets just roll with that for now…)

That means there will be three ways to obtain them…
- A Pick you can buy from the Gem store that gives a chance of you getting some…
- A node specifically devoted to them in your Home Instance…
- Buying them from other players via the Trading Post…

Two out of three methods by which to gain these materials does not require you spending any real money at all.
If P2W means that you can only get something in a game via spending real money (as it has been stated) then your argument falls short. Because…
SPROCKETS CAN STILL BE OBTAINED IN GAME
Not P2W.

You are using sprockets in your argument. The example is a pickaxe that creates sprockets.

As stated earlier you are using the shifting sands logical fallacy. If the pick created gold coins instead of sprockets is that ok? Legendaries? Precursors? All these things are obtainable in game. The only difference is perception of what is worthwhile.

Your perception of worth is the logical fallacy. It is p2w. I’m not sure how I can make it any clearer.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

What the people who are arguing for keeping this and things like this in game are using is a shifting sands logical fallacy. You said it yourself, if it gave out gold coins…then it would be pay to win. Why? It spits out sprockets worth…you guessed it…money. It’s just not that much. But it’s the same exact thing as a pick that would spit out gold coins at your feet. The only thing that is different is a persons perception of what is worthwhile.

Which is a logical fallacy. This is not subjective.

No, I’m not arguing for keeping this. I’m saying there’s always been a P2W element in GuildWars if you care to look hard enough, and this pick isn’t remotely close to what most people think of.

Why? It’s simple. The sprockets are limited-availability. However, the Queen’s Pavilion where there were four areas and you could fight Destroyers, Flame Legion, Bandits, Centaurs? You got sprockets in there. They’ve said, or at least inferred, that area will come back sometime in the future.

This now (provisionally) puts sprockets on the same level as snowflakes, candy corn, quartz crystals, baubles, and the inventory-jamming ugly wool clothing.

Add to the concept of the Gift of Sprockets which can provide a lot of those in the home instance for doing 11 achievements for the current meta-achievement? When it’s possible to earn over half of them in one round of marionette/wurm/energy probes?

Yeah, I really want to point out if anything this is for the lazy people. Much like the unlocks for sale for GW1 mentioned above being for people who were lazy. If this is P2W, so is that. Doubly so since skill acquisition was a major part of that game.

You’re right. GW2 (and I guess GW1, never played) has always had an element of p2w about it. It was just subtle and the trade off for it was being able to use in game gold to buy gems to use in the store. Overall, it’s a great system.

Most items in the cash shop are for lazy people, and generally they are harmless.

Personally, I couldn’t care less about it. Pretty much the only reason I’m posting is to counter the “It’s not p2w because it’s a very small advantage” argument.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

killcannon.2576:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Not P2W.
Not by a long shot. And here’s why…
For those us us that have completed the meta for this LS, we have our own personal node to get Sprockets. Much like the Quartz Node, this will give us access to something you can’t get anywhere else in game.
But, where does that leave those of us who do not, or are unable to finish the meta?
kitten out of luck, that’s what. Unless they have a generous friend that lets them into their Home Instance to use their node…
This pick gives people another option for getting this crafting material, and puts less pressure on those who have a hard time with the meta.
On top of that, Sprockets can be bought and sold on the TP. This Pick in no way shape or form makes those without access to it unable to get Sprockets. If it did… If this Pick was the only way to get Sprockets, then I’d be up in arms over this like everyone else.

Pay2Win?
People are /far/ to quick to want to slap that label on this game

So then where is the goal post? If they sell a pick that gives a chance for ori at each node? Azurite Orbs? Gives gold coins? After all, these are all available in game and can be had by anyone.

Yes, the sprockets are a small thing. So let’s just move the goal post a little further…then a little further…then a little more.

It’s up to the player base to let the devs know whether or not they are ok with what’s on offer. For some players, just being able to buy gold is p2w, even if there was a good reason behind it (although this has not stopped gold sellers or bots at all in game, so that’s a failed experiment to an extent. Anet just gets a cut of those profits now). Players have the obligation to voice their opinions on either side of this issue.

In truth, it’s a p2w mechanic, just like many other p2w mechanics in game already. This one is just way to obvious to let go.

Where that ‘goal post’ is, is subjective, and impossible to say without saying ‘My opinion means more then yours.’ (There is enough of that on these forums already…) The examples you used to try and make that point are hyperbole (some more extreme then others… Gold Coins from an ore node… I’d walk away from this game at that point, and I really enjoy playing it.)
Now, while I do understand what you are trying to say, it’s a slippery slope argument that I have yet to see justified in this game… And more often then not, such arguments assume that Anet and those running the show there are oblivious to where the line is when it comes to becoming nothing more then a true Pay2Win game as opposed to simply ‘casual friendly’. There is a difference that people are all too quick to try and blur here…

To the topic of the Sprockets themselves…
So, instead of this Pick which gives a chance at giving players a single type of crafting material, you would rather those that can’t get the meta done have no way of gaining Sprockets outside of buying them from other players, once this LS is complete?

Again. Nothing gives a player with this item an advantage over anyone else. The only thing this does is it helps (slightly) to give players another way to get Sprockets (along with the bonus of having a pick that they can use indefinitely, which is nothing new in this game.) Something which players that have completed the meta already get via the node in the Home Instance without a single Gem spent.

TL;DR: If the Pick allowed you, the player to get things that were otherwise impossible to get in the game (aka, if Sprockets were un-tradable, no Sprocket node in the home instance, they are gone after the LS is done…) the yes, I’ll concede a possible P2W.
As it is, it does not.

I’m not using a slippery slope argument. A game becomes pay to win as soon as you can buy things with money that are not available to everyone else in game through normal game play. It’s that simple. The game has always been pay to win to some extent, it just wasn’t very blunt about it.

Can I also get a pick in game through normal game play that has a bonus chance of spitting out sprockets? No? p2w.

What the people who are arguing for keeping this and things like this in game are using is a shifting sands logical fallacy. You said it yourself, if it gave out gold coins…then it would be pay to win. Why? It spits out sprockets worth…you guessed it…money. It’s just not that much. But it’s the same exact thing as a pick that would spit out gold coins at your feet. The only thing that is different is a persons perception of what is worthwhile.

Which is a logical fallacy. This is not subjective.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Not P2W.
Not by a long shot. And here’s why…
For those us us that have completed the meta for this LS, we have our own personal node to get Sprockets. Much like the Quartz Node, this will give us access to something you can’t get anywhere else in game.
But, where does that leave those of us who do not, or are unable to finish the meta?
kitten out of luck, that’s what. Unless they have a generous friend that lets them into their Home Instance to use their node…
This pick gives people another option for getting this crafting material, and puts less pressure on those who have a hard time with the meta.
On top of that, Sprockets can be bought and sold on the TP. This Pick in no way shape or form makes those without access to it unable to get Sprockets. If it did… If this Pick was the only way to get Sprockets, then I’d be up in arms over this like everyone else.

Pay2Win?
People are /far/ to quick to want to slap that label on this game

So then where is the goal post? If they sell a pick that gives a chance for ori at each node? Azurite Orbs? Gives gold coins? After all, these are all available in game and can be had by anyone.

Yes, the sprockets are a small thing. So let’s just move the goal post a little further…then a little further…then a little more.

It’s up to the player base to let the devs know whether or not they are ok with what’s on offer. For some players, just being able to buy gold is p2w, even if there was a good reason behind it (although this has not stopped gold sellers or bots at all in game, so that’s a failed experiment to an extent. Anet just gets a cut of those profits now). Players have the obligation to voice their opinions on either side of this issue.

In truth, it’s a p2w mechanic, just like many other p2w mechanics in game already. This one is just way too obvious to let go.

Trashman.8596:

Fernling.1729:

Trashman.8596:

Give me a gem store item to level up and I’ll give you full access to my bank account. eye wink

Just buy gold and level all the crafting disciplines.

NO The P2W cycle must be completed!

No worries, it’s coming.

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

laokoko.7403:

^ but many people don’t want instanced raid. That’s why it is much better to do private overflow instead! >

Many people do want this type of content instanced. The best thing for Anet to do is to apply critical thinking and make this content instanced. I’m fine if people want to call it a private overflow rather than an instance. GW2 has all manner of confusing terms and labels and one more won’t hurt anything.

I don’t think it actually matters that many people want this, though. It’s not enough to say many people want this. Many people want stealth removed from the game too. Just because people want this doesn’t mean it will benefit the game, or Anet’s vision for the game.

People keep saying Anet has no vision for the game, but I think they do. And I think that vision is pushing content, more and more, to the open world. Doing less and less in instances.

They keep talking about a living/breathing world. That’s pretty much their current motto. This is where they want to go. Which means they want the playerbase playing in the open world.

You start making instanced raids and you lose those people from the world. They might be happy, but it might not work for what Anet is attempting to do.

Before Anet would make such a drastic change to their vision for this game (the one they’re pushing forward aggressively and currently working on), you’d have to know how many people feel that way, compared to how many people who would hate it.

If this becomes another raiding game, where people wait around in cities for their queues to pop, I know I won’t be very happy.

Too late. The content is already being instanced whether you like it or not.

The vast majority of kills for Teq happen in unique overflows by raiding guilds. Same will happen for worm.

The metrics are already there regardless of what anyone wants to believe. Prepare to be unhappy.

Judge Banks.9018:

I wonder if morning sickness is similar to realizing that Guild Wars 2 is considered the new western mold for mmog development.

lol, That would be scary if it were true.

Guess.

There is no reliable way.

tolunart.2095:

killcannon.2576:

They need to throw a couple LS updates at Orr. Get some people invested in the area and freshen it up a bit.

For the most part it’s been ignored by all the LS content. I’d really enjoy some max level content updates.

LS is intended more for casual players, who level slowly and many of whom have not even visited Orr at all. Aside from teleports into relatively sheltered areas that uplevel toons (like the early LS chapter taking place in Southsun) it seems that the Devs constructing the stories wanted to concentrate on lower level zones that are more familiar and easier for casuals to access.

A year into the LS, more people have reached max level on at least one toon, so the second story may venture into high level areas more often.

Shrug.

Hope so. Will have to wait and see.

Second one, imo.

They need to throw a couple LS updates at Orr. Get some people invested in the area and freshen it up a bit.

For the most part it’s been ignored by all the LS content. I’d really enjoy some max level content updates.

MrInfinit.1864:

No Walking.6349:

That being said….allow groups and guilds to form their own private overflows where random people can’t get in and ruin entire guilds from doing content together. Add in that feature and your open raid content will be absolutely PERFECT!

This seems like a slick way of asking for what others have asked for in other threads lately – instanced raid content.

I really hope they never add in instanced raid content. I love open world raiding, I love that I can log on and jump to the zone and be a part of something fun without having to worry about being invited to a group. It’s nice to just jump in and not worry about being kicked if my gear or spec isn’t what the raid leaders want it to be.

Devs, you’re current open raid content is great as it is! No need to mess it up by making them instanced!

It’s already instanced. Just make a hard instance for players who don’t want to do the overflow dance.

It’s not a question of if or will they do instanced raid content…just when.

Just make it a high tier, instanced guild mission.

Same thing should probably be done for Teq and Wurm as well.

tornadokicks.3845:

I find this somewhat important. Whether this one is used or if moderators want to take what I’ve done and create their own I don’t care. So long as some kind of main post for suggestions is pinned, that’s my main goal.

that way ideas/suggestions are supported and easy to find instead of hidden away into sub forums or shoved into some obscure spot.

Bump…

The suggestions that matter to the forum community will get the hits and replies necessary to make them relevant, the ones that do not resonate will not.

Creating a sticky defeats the purpose. Just make good suggestions instead.

Blah blah blah. Anet needs to just break down and instance the raid content. TTS and the other pseudo guilds are already making it an instance, devs just need to go ahead and make it official.

Guesting and open tagging are perhaps the two biggest fails of this game.

Scizzor.8137:

Vol.7601:

killcannon.2576:

Failure to stop the Marionette before the power meter associated with it is filled results in a massive cannon going off and every single player within Lornar’s Pass being killed. Even those possibly on the other side of the map.

wtf

I know, shame these players have to waste 60c-2S to respawn!

lol, honestly if they’re on the map and not helping they deserve to die.

Glad GW2 has players who are so great at building a game community.

Vol.7601:

killcannon.2576:

Vol.7601:

killcannon.2576:

Failure to stop the Marionette before the power meter associated with it is filled results in a massive cannon going off and every single player within Lornar’s Pass being killed. Even those possibly on the other side of the map.

wtf

I know, shame these players have to waste 60c-2S to respawn!

The respawn itself wouldn’t necessarily be the issue, and I do like that there is a noticeable fail condition that affects the zone to help game immersion. But for some players who may either not be interested or for servers who do not have the organized population to do this event, getting insta killed in the middle of going for a skill point/ vista/ JP may be a bit too much.

I understand, but I don’t think the number of players being negatively affected by this will be too great. The zone is dead as is on most servers, and this only happens once every x hours, so it’s fine. Besides, if a new player sees all these commander tags and raging in the chat, he may be inclined to check it out.

Or leave the game entirely. There’s a better solution than all or nothing.

Vol.7601:

killcannon.2576:

Failure to stop the Marionette before the power meter associated with it is filled results in a massive cannon going off and every single player within Lornar’s Pass being killed. Even those possibly on the other side of the map.

wtf

I know, shame these players have to waste 60c-2S to respawn!

The respawn itself wouldn’t necessarily be the issue, and I do like that there is a noticeable fail condition that affects the zone to help game immersion. But for some players who may either not be interested or for servers who do not have the organized population to do this event, getting insta killed in the middle of going for a skill point/ vista/ JP may be a bit too much.

Darkobra.6439:

killcannon.2576:

Failure to stop the Marionette before the power meter associated with it is filled results in a massive cannon going off and every single player within Lornar’s Pass being killed. Even those possibly on the other side of the map.

wtf

Puts your username to shame!

Indeed. Although not sure how I feel about random arbitrary zone wide insta-death mechanics for people who have no interest in the boss fight. Especially on servers who don’t have the pop to do these fights.

Failure to stop the Marionette before the power meter associated with it is filled results in a massive cannon going off and every single player within Lornar’s Pass being killed. Even those possibly on the other side of the map.

wtf

It needs a lot of players that play, that is true enough. Casuals gamers (different than casual mmo players) don’t fit that role though. They just don’t play enough to help populate a game.

PvP is pretty much a given in almost all MMO’s, and if done well won’t split the player base. If it can be tied into the lore and mechanics. Something GW2 is trying to play catch up with. Elder scrolls lore would actually be well suited to pvp, whether they do it right remains to be seen. So would have GW2’s, if they had decided to not go the care bear route and decided to make all the races friendly towards one another. The game is practically screaming for a Charr/Asura alliance versus the Human/ Sylvari.

When businesses diversify, they create subsidiaries, much like how Anet is a subsidiary of NCSoft. If a company makes shaving cream and wants to diversify by making toothpaste as well, they don’t make a toothpaste/shaving cream hybrid (as much fun as that might be). They make another company that creates toothpaste. Each company then specializes in it’s own product. The same with MMO’s. It’s a bad idea to make one MMO to rule them all, what Blizz is finding out, when you can make different MMO’s to focus appeal and work towards one group. Like NCSoft is doing currently. WildStar will be for hardcores what GW2 is for casual mmo players.

Being all things to all gamers in a MMO fractures your player base, makes it harder to develop consistent quality content, fractures a games focus, and runs the risk of your player base feeling betrayed or confused on what kind of game they are actually playing. It doesn’t work, it’s never worked, and never will. With no clear focus on who their core player group is, they will never be able to make a game that is great at being what it is, it will just be mediocre at everything it’s trying to be.

Like shaving cream toothpaste…..yuck.

Vayne.8563:

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

I didn’t mean to say that everything Anet does to please various groups should be fair game. I’m simply saying that in and out itself, it’s not wrong to please various groups if you can.

The real issues, of course, come when pleasing one group completely disenfranchises another.

Curious as to what has led you to believe that catering to as many groups as possible is a good thing?

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

Curious as to what has led you to believe that catering to as many groups as possible is a good thing?

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

There is a reason that, “you can’t please all of the people all of the time,” is a truism. Different people like different things. Doing one thing, even if only for a little while, will delight some people while disappointing others. Then the others will get something they like while still another group is disappointed until its their turn. Until a game development studio has access to nigh unlimited resources they will disappoint people with everything they do. The goal shouldn’t even be to avoid disappointing people, it should be to please more people than they disappoint.

Disappointment doesn’t mean, “hates the game.” It can be as trivial as not getting what you want out of a given BLC or Teq’s chest this time. It can be dissatisfaction with the current SPvP meta for a while and so playing WvW instead. It can be dislike for the current living story arc and so waiting for the next.

and so on.

Sorry to say but I disagree with this statement. Take something like Disney World…which is oddly enough a themepark. Something themepark MMOs try to do.

Disneyworld provides myriad experiences for people who crave different things. If you’re a thrill ride seeker, you’re going to largely be disappointed with disney world. If you’re a person who only likes theater shows, you’re going to be disappointed.

But a percentage of people do a bit of everything and that’s what makes places like Disneyworld so successful. It’s a play where you have a bit of everything.

People seem to think most people prefer only one thing or two things, but some people like variety and Guild Wars 2, by making a game for everyone, is offering that variety. I’d wager there’s a fairly large segment of the population that likes to do different things.

So they do some PvE in the open world, some dungeons, some bosses, then jump int WvW for a while, play some minigames.

Saying something is a truism doesn’t make it a truism. It has some value, but you have to question that kind of statement further, because so many truisms have completely contradictory truisms.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Out of sight out of mind. Both of those things are considered truisms, but they directly contradict each other. Putting weight on truisms because people say them is intellectually dangerous.

The term “theme park mmo” doesn’t have anything to do with offering a wide variety of things to do for a wide variety of players.

Neural.1824:

good greif do you people get caught up in details. I’m not going to bother spelling it out, you’ll never see the forest for the trees. I was throwing out kittening examples. The only ones relevant to my own view point were the last three questions that I listed as my own questions.

The thing is, you’re never going to get straight answers because it all “depends”

They can put mounts in
They can make precursors craftable
You could stow your pet
They could fix graphics glitches, bugs, various other things

In all these things, ask yourself “What is the upside for the development team to implement these things?” What helps developers make these decisions are metrics…and the players don’t have access to any reliable form of this.

1. Will we see a large drop in player population if we do/do not implement x/y/z ?
2. Will we see an increase/decrease in sales/gem store profits if we do/do not implement x,y,z ?
3. If we implement x,y,z is there a way to monetize additions that do not affect basic game balance through the gem store?

These are the questions that get asked in house. If it does not affect monetization in any way, then it is a low priority and will be dealt with eventually.

It’s part of the monetization model. Without guaranteed income from each player, the developer has to constantly ask itself in what ways can we get more players to spend money. It affects basic game design on every single level. From balancing to make the game into an esport, to whether or not you can put that monster trophy on your wall in your home instance.

Danikat.8537:

I think it’s interesting that you seem to think the only possible answers are that the devs will eventually give you everything you want, or they want to but can’t because it’s impossible.

I’m sure there’s lots of things they could do but choose not to.

For a start I’m pretty sure they have never implied mounts might be added, or even avoided the question. They’ve just said no. But for some reason some players can’t seem to wrap their heads around the idea that an MMO without mounts could exist and others seem to hope that if they keep asking Anet will change their minds. (Which I admit isn’t totally out of the question, but that’s not the same as them wanting to do it and being unable to or stringing us along with evasive answers.)

It’s because they have never just said “No”. Just “No plans at this time”

Google it.

There was an emphatic NO for mounts on the INITIAL release. It’s a question of profit as always, will it make more money than it costs? and after that is Will it break the game with the current mechanics in place? It’s a lot of work for a one time gem purchase, or worse…no gem purchase. Maybe…maybe expect something like mounts for an expansion where their inclusion is an all or nothing deal.

I wouldn’t expect precursors to ever be craftable, no matter what they say. As of now, they are a great gold sink and a good way to sell gems. There is little pay off on Anet’s end to remove the rng or make them easier to get. If they do institute some form of a reliable way to get precursors it will be because people quit playing the game because of it OR they find another way to monetize them. Think Legendary tiers most likely.

Housing is almost a sure bet to be included at some point. They are probably investing work hours currently into adding content for some future patch and making gem store items to sell to people who want player housing. I would expect this in their BIG patch this spring. It’s an easy addition to monetize and it give players something they want and it will be a headliner to keep players when the other MMO’s launch.

The Ranger pet is an intrinsic part of the class, don’t expect it.

Most bugs and exploits and graphic glitches will be fixed slowly. Low priority unless it affects monetization.

When you ask questions, the answer usually breaks down to money. The players are important, but only in ways that it makes the company money. One reason why you see the things you do in the f2p and b2p markets. Just part of the scheme.

Trogy sure has changed quite a bit from the old days. Here is how he might have replied to his own thread when he was just a wee lad.

Personally I’d load up the gem store with every non-essential in game item I could think of no matter how small the audience for it may be. If I thought enough people were willing to buy it to cover the cost of development plus earn money it would be in the gem store.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Darkstar.6178:

To my mind, this says only that they wanted to make it complex and keep people guessing. Well, they kinda did that…I saw a lot of people stating “I wonder what Scarlet is doing with these things this time.” Just because we know who is behind it doesn’t mean we know how things are going to work out, or really even WHY she is doing it.

The only guessing game people are indulging in now is guessing when Scarlet will finally be gone.

Clearly you don’t read lore forums or reddit. On reddit, people are speculating constantly. There are many threads about what’s coming and have been for a while now.

Reddit…..lol. It’s like the mirror universe of 4chan.

. . . which one has the goatee?

I think they share one and just switch days.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Darkstar.6178:

To my mind, this says only that they wanted to make it complex and keep people guessing. Well, they kinda did that…I saw a lot of people stating “I wonder what Scarlet is doing with these things this time.” Just because we know who is behind it doesn’t mean we know how things are going to work out, or really even WHY she is doing it.

The only guessing game people are indulging in now is guessing when Scarlet will finally be gone.

Clearly you don’t read lore forums or reddit. On reddit, people are speculating constantly. There are many threads about what’s coming and have been for a while now.

Reddit…..lol. It’s like the mirror universe of 4chan.

Galen Grey.4709:

I honestly cannot understand why people think its so far fetched for Anet to release now zones / contents / races!

why the skeptism, they’ve said they’re going to do it from day one.

what are people skeptical about? that they dont have the know how? ability? motivation? I just dont get it

It’s the same story they have been preaching about forever.

“Nothing is off the table!” “Wait till next year!!” “Wait til you see our next patch!!” “You won’t believe what we have in store for you!!” “We have huge big giant great plans!!”

Words are great and all, but it’s past time to just put the stuff in the game and quit hyping it.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Vol.7601:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

We don’t know what their “two big background” projects are either. One could easily be Cantha. And Elona.

FTFY

I have no idea what that stands for…. (go me!)

Stands for “Fixed that for you”. He changed your “or” to “and”.

People think it’s cute to change quotes I guess.

More marketing talk. I wouldn’t look too far into it, not a single concrete thing was said, just the same old stuff.

Hype train just keeps on a rolling.

Serelisk.6573:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Phantom.8130:

killcannon.2576:

Progression doesn’t have to be about stats. And for me it isn’t about stats, it’s about reason.

Sweeping Generalizations

The game lacks progression because the idea behind it is very inclusive instead of exclusive. There is no reason to log in because you never fall behind (one reason they introduced LS was to give the illusion of falling behind). No one stands out, everyone is equal, everyone is the same. No one gets shut out of any content ever. You don’t have to do AC to experience Arah. You don’t have to do your personal story to get to Cursed Shore. You never have to craft. You never have to leave the starting zone, you can rescue bunnies till you fall over dead. You don’t have to do anything.

It’s the epitome of the casual MMO, and that’s a good thing for many players and I’m glad they made a game for that crowd. But progression minded players (horizontal or vertical) don’t have much to shoot for. It’s the Minecraft of MMO’s.

i understand what you’re saying entirely. if make a new character and get him to level 80, and decide that i’d like to run arah, all i would have to do is just go to arah. the same with everything else. i don’t even have to acknowledge the existence of the lower level dungeon leading up it. progression would be starting with only AC available, and having to complete it to unlock CM, and so on up the list until i’ve done them all and am able to do arah. the same with everything else you’ve mentioned. it has nothing to do with gear whatsoever, but about actions. needing to complete easy tasks before being able to graduate up to doing harder and harder ones. starting off at the bottom and working your way up through the ranks. that sense of accomplishment is pretty much nonexistent in gw2. to use an analogy, it’s the difference between starting off in the mailroom and working to be promoted higher and higher up the corporate ladder, and being able to just start off as the CEO right off the bat. when you look back, and see all that you had to accomplish to get where you are, it means a hell of a lot more to you than if it was just hand delivered to you from the get-go. it also gives you goals to strive for. if you start off at the top, there’s nothing left for you to shoot for. if you start off at the bottom and need to earn your way up, each step becomes a goal in itself. gear is so often viewed as progression simply because acquiring each tier is a ladder of goals in itself. once you get the top tier of gear, there’s no new goals, so most MMOs spew out another few tiers of gear every now because it’s absurdly simple to do from a developer standpoint. it’s also extremely lazy and unimaginative, but it’s been done by so many companies for so long that it’s just become the accepted practice as well as the accepted definition of the word progression. it doesn’t reflect well on MMOs as a whole, when you think about it.

So you want linear progression. If that works for you, that’s great.

I don’t particularly want linear progression. If I’m good enough to do a higher level dungeon without doing a lower level one, I should be able to.

Well, luckily for you, that’s the game we currently have in GW2. And I’m glad there is a game for the players who don’t like progression out there.

‘For players who don’t like linear progression*, which is still not entirely accurate because, correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t that the whole reason Fractals even exist?

You don’t progress anywhere in Fractals except upward in difficulty and reward. Nothing new opens, you don’t really experience anything different, you don’t open more fractals to do.

The people at the bottom of the ladder are doing the exact same thing as those at the top. It’s some kind of skewed hybrid horizontal vertical mess.

Diagonal progression?

Vayne.8563:

Phantom.8130:

killcannon.2576:

Progression doesn’t have to be about stats. And for me it isn’t about stats, it’s about reason.

Sweeping Generalizations

The game lacks progression because the idea behind it is very inclusive instead of exclusive. There is no reason to log in because you never fall behind (one reason they introduced LS was to give the illusion of falling behind). No one stands out, everyone is equal, everyone is the same. No one gets shut out of any content ever. You don’t have to do AC to experience Arah. You don’t have to do your personal story to get to Cursed Shore. You never have to craft. You never have to leave the starting zone, you can rescue bunnies till you fall over dead. You don’t have to do anything.

It’s the epitome of the casual MMO, and that’s a good thing for many players and I’m glad they made a game for that crowd. But progression minded players (horizontal or vertical) don’t have much to shoot for. It’s the Minecraft of MMO’s.

i understand what you’re saying entirely. if make a new character and get him to level 80, and decide that i’d like to run arah, all i would have to do is just go to arah. the same with everything else. i don’t even have to acknowledge the existence of the lower level dungeon leading up it. progression would be starting with only AC available, and having to complete it to unlock CM, and so on up the list until i’ve done them all and am able to do arah. the same with everything else you’ve mentioned. it has nothing to do with gear whatsoever, but about actions. needing to complete easy tasks before being able to graduate up to doing harder and harder ones. starting off at the bottom and working your way up through the ranks. that sense of accomplishment is pretty much nonexistent in gw2. to use an analogy, it’s the difference between starting off in the mailroom and working to be promoted higher and higher up the corporate ladder, and being able to just start off as the CEO right off the bat. when you look back, and see all that you had to accomplish to get where you are, it means a hell of a lot more to you than if it was just hand delivered to you from the get-go. it also gives you goals to strive for. if you start off at the top, there’s nothing left for you to shoot for. if you start off at the bottom and need to earn your way up, each step becomes a goal in itself. gear is so often viewed as progression simply because acquiring each tier is a ladder of goals in itself. once you get the top tier of gear, there’s no new goals, so most MMOs spew out another few tiers of gear every now because it’s absurdly simple to do from a developer standpoint. it’s also extremely lazy and unimaginative, but it’s been done by so many companies for so long that it’s just become the accepted practice as well as the accepted definition of the word progression. it doesn’t reflect well on MMOs as a whole, when you think about it.

So you want linear progression. If that works for you, that’s great.

I don’t particularly want linear progression. If I’m good enough to do a higher level dungeon without doing a lower level one, I should be able to.

Well, luckily for you, that’s the game we currently have in GW2. And I’m glad there is a game for the players who don’t like progression out there.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Great game. Mediocre MMO.

Funny I’d have reversed that.

Mediocre game, great MMO for me.

I’ve played games I like better, but no MMO has come close. lol Actually pretty good, rather than mediocre.

I just don’t see a lot of long term progression mechanics to keep players in game.

The LS for me has always been a stop gap measure till they had those mechanics in place. During the year that the LS has been active, I just haven’t seen the progression mechanics being implemented besides the achieve point awards.

For me, it’s a better game than an MMO simply because I really enjoyed the core game and exploring every zone and I had a lot of fun doing it. Now that I have done those things I just don’t have as much reason to play.

I don’t need ascended, WvW to me is just a huge mess of zergs, spvp isn’t fun due to a lack of game modes, the Legendary process relies more on rng than anything that I actually have some kind of involvement in, there is no reason for me to craft except to gear myself, the LS lacks meaningful story, gameplay or lore for me. I look at the game and see no progression, either horizontal or vertical. Even the guild missions don’t have progression… you don’t work your way up to a mega encounter with a great boss, you just pull some names out of a hat and go kill stuff or run around.

To me, that’s what an MMO needs. A way to set myself apart from anyone else. I don’t see another challenge to set myself against and overcome. Just log in, join a zerg train and grab some mats. That doesn’t make me feel accomplished, it’s just busy work like farming for mats in any other game…but for absolutely no reason.

The only reason I still play isn’t because of the game, it’s because of the people I’ve met. And I’ve quit games for less. It has a lot of potential, but for now, that’s all it is.

Potential.

See I’m the opposite. I’m perfectly content watching the LS unfold slowly. The progression (unquote) from most MMOs doesn’t feel like progression to me at all. Getting better stats through gear has NEVER entertained me and never will. The quest for gear, raiding or running dungeons is not why I play RPGs.

So no other MMO has held my interest for any length of time.

Achievement points on the other hand, that’s okay for me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Progression doesn’t have to be about stats. And for me it isn’t about stats, it’s about reason.

Sweeping Generalizations

The game lacks progression because the idea behind it is very inclusive instead of exclusive. There is no reason to log in because you never fall behind (one reason they introduced LS was to give the illusion of falling behind). No one stands out, everyone is equal, everyone is the same. No one gets shut out of any content ever. You don’t have to do AC to experience Arah. You don’t have to do your personal story to get to Cursed Shore. You never have to craft. You never have to leave the starting zone, you can rescue bunnies till you fall over dead. You don’t have to do anything.

It’s the epitome of the casual MMO, and that’s a good thing for many players and I’m glad they made a game for that crowd. But progression minded players (horizontal or vertical) don’t have much to shoot for. It’s the Minecraft of MMO’s.

Hope they enjoy it. Game can always use more players.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Great game. Mediocre MMO.

Funny I’d have reversed that.

Mediocre game, great MMO for me.

I’ve played games I like better, but no MMO has come close. lol Actually pretty good, rather than mediocre.

I just don’t see a lot of long term progression mechanics to keep players in game.

The LS for me has always been a stop gap measure till they had those mechanics in place. During the year that the LS has been active, I just haven’t seen the progression mechanics being implemented besides the achieve point awards.

For me, it’s a better game than an MMO simply because I really enjoyed the core game and exploring every zone and I had a lot of fun doing it. Now that I have done those things I just don’t have as much reason to play.

I don’t need ascended, WvW to me is just a huge mess of zergs, spvp isn’t fun due to a lack of game modes, the Legendary process relies more on rng than anything that I actually have some kind of involvement in, there is no reason for me to craft except to gear myself, the LS lacks meaningful story, gameplay or lore for me. I look at the game and see no progression, either horizontal or vertical. Even the guild missions don’t have progression… you don’t work your way up to a mega encounter with a great boss, you just pull some names out of a hat and go kill stuff or run around.

To me, that’s what an MMO needs. A way to set myself apart from anyone else. I don’t see another challenge to set myself against and overcome. Just log in, join a zerg train and grab some mats. That doesn’t make me feel accomplished, it’s just busy work like farming for mats in any other game…but for absolutely no reason.

The only reason I still play isn’t because of the game, it’s because of the people I’ve met. And I’ve quit games for less. It has a lot of potential, but for now, that’s all it is.

Potential.

Great game. Mediocre MMO.

Lord Kuru.3685:

killcannon.2576:

Lord Kuru.3685:

killcannon.2576:

Lord Kuru.3685:

As far as I know, the server population level is determined by how many people are on at that instant. That’s why sometimes servers are “very high” and sometimes “high”.

How many people make it “high” and how many people make it “very high” no one but Anet knows so they are free to manipulate as they wish.

It has been confirmed by the developers that server population is based upon how many accounts are at “home” on a server.

Not how many are active.

Common knowledge by now, look it up.

Then how is it possible a single server can sometimes be High pop and sometimes low pop?

Anet or whoever is in charge of server administration can change server caps at will without notice. For all I know they may be automated by now to adjust server caps.

Why they would do this I will leave to others to imagine.

Interesting. So the caps are changing and not the populations and that’s why servers can change from “very high” to “high”.

I can not say whether or not the population is changing. There are new players buying the game and people do switch servers for whatever reason they have.

The whole system is set up in a way to obfuscate any kind of data gathering from an outside source.

Lord Kuru.3685:

killcannon.2576:

Lord Kuru.3685:

As far as I know, the server population level is determined by how many people are on at that instant. That’s why sometimes servers are “very high” and sometimes “high”.

How many people make it “high” and how many people make it “very high” no one but Anet knows so they are free to manipulate as they wish.

It has been confirmed by the developers that server population is based upon how many accounts are at “home” on a server.

Not how many are active.

Common knowledge by now, look it up.

Then how is it possible a single server can sometimes be High pop and sometimes low pop?

Anet or whoever is in charge of server administration can change server caps at will without notice. For all I know they may be automated by now to adjust server caps.

Why they would do this I will leave to others to imagine.

Lord Kuru.3685:

As far as I know, the server population level is determined by how many people are on at that instant. That’s why sometimes servers are “very high” and sometimes “high”.

How many people make it “high” and how many people make it “very high” no one but Anet knows so they are free to manipulate as they wish.

It has been confirmed by the developers that server population is based upon how many accounts are at “home” on a server.

Not how many are active.

Common knowledge by now, look it up.

calebwithak.6925:

Hey it’s my understanding that currently server populations are a reflections of all accounts created on that server regardless of activity… This is a problem. If I may be so bold as to suggest that a dormancy server be created to hold inactive accounts. Accounts that are 6 months dormant should be moved to the dormancy server. The accounts could probably be compressed to save room, and when the account is reactivated the user will be responsible to choose a new home for the account much the same as when you initially choose a server. This will help our servers to not be burdened with dormant accounts and will help the server population be better representative of the actual active population on the server, rather then all the servers appearing to be equal with “high population.”

They change the ceiling on servers dynamically on their end regardless. Doesn’t matter if there are 5 or 5000000 accounts on the server, they can just change the ceiling and it will always say High or Very High or Low or whatever. Welcome to the age of zero transparency.