Guild Wars 2

I personally don’t run generosity these days. It doesn’t really do anything to save you from an actual condi bomb like say.. lyssa runes can. While you could get lucky and transfer 12 burn stacks to your target, you probably won’t, and the transfer you do end up with will likely be a negligable condition. Additionally, the sigil can proc and go on cooldown even when you have no conditions on you, which can be problematic.

I’d recommend sticking with offensive crit/swap sigils. Even though fire/air were nerfed, I still find them to be the best sigil set on the GS just to help push the damage on the autoattacks up in between bursts.

For staff or sw/x as your offset I assume, you can run generosity, but usually some combination of blood/energy/leeching/air works better in my opinion.

Ross, I’ll try out your trait setup later today. I’ve been getting back into lockdown builds since I hate the PU “meta” with such a passion, so I’ve been cycling through many different builds.

Mime’s inspiration mantra shatter build after the nerf two months ago sucks now unless you play against a condi comp, having the charge the mantra heal is too much effort in addition to the required MoD charge, and the extra support from inspiration is nice, but not really worth it compared to a more focused build.

That being said, I’ve been playing with CI and CS, as well as powerblock in my build, but I was thinking of keeping CI but switching CS out to the 15% phantasm damage trait for more damage, but I can see your rationale for keeping CS to make the 30% mental anguish bonus more reliable. In general it seems like a less debilitating but more bursty type of lockdown build, and as a necro main debilitation is my favorite part of a lockdown builds. I do see the value of bountiful disillusionment though, but I don’t know if I could bear to get rid of powerblock for the debilitation factor alone. I also take portal, just for the outrotation factor.

And as another note with chronomancy I might adapt this build again, but with s/sh GS and goodies like chronophantasma and delayed reactions and the gravity well and the heal well for some condi clear.

I’d rather see elementalist reworked into a total burst/nuke class, and simply have most of the passive defenses and healing be replaced with more active defenses and forms of damage mitigation.

If that were the case, I bet we’d fear marauder fresh air D/F Tenpests instead or something like that.

I’m pretty sure they data mined glyphs for Druids, you know, those useless elementalist utilities.

Wait literally one month and one day from now, slot chronomancer, and take wells of calamity, action, precognition, and eternity.

Problem solved.

Eagelseye.6312:

Thanks both of you for the valuable suggestions. I will probably roll out an Ele plus a Guardian to see how things goes.

We know that Ele is having its sustain nerfed in the near future most likely, so I wouldn’t avoid it.

Anyway to me a tank in pvp is usually thought of as a bruiser, being able to deal good damage and tank it very well, which is really good in conquest because being able to hold a node is strong. The other form of tank is pure support, ie. no damage but high sustain and support, such as a support guardian or a settler shoutbow warrior.

For a bruiser tank build, I’d recommend soldier’s engineer, or a tanky power necro build (you can run anything from soldiers, to celestial, to knights/crusaders really). Ele is probably the most overpowered bruiser, but I don’t recommend playing it just because it might become totally unplayable a few months from now.

You can make a viable bruiser build out of nearly any class, save for mesmer/thief, but only because their mechanics favor bursty roaming dps and their defensive abilities don’t let them hold a node (stealth in particular).

Yeah, to me, my personal version of hell is either being forced to play skyhammer/spirit watch/courtyard for the rest of eternity, or to be on Boston’s Green Line of the T for the rest of eternity. Both are easily as uncomfortable as the other.

StickerHappy.8052:

What is the point of this thread? Rangers have been the lowest tier in pve and pvp. So what if they get something great?

Mesmers have gotten a lot of buffs to chrono on the recent BWE3 changes, and you still speculate “Oh other classes have this better”

What a joke. This will turn out to be another “pity party” for sure.

Way to go mesmer community..

I agree, it’s so annoying that everyone compares their main to the most recent elite spec in a vacuum. It’s also bad on the martyr filled necroforum, in which everyone cries about every elite spec getting ways to counter chill or more burning on berserker or adaptive armor in scrapper being better than the necro version of the trait. It’s annoying considering how we have the balance designer with the best ability to iterate and rework classes, and each iteration of feedback has made chronomancer and reaper subsequently more useful and fun.

Quadox.7834:

You’ll get different answers from different people, i personally think the game is extremely boring if i play anything other than my main class mesmer. And even that is boring if i play PU meta.

Yeah I agree, PU bores me to death. Also cele signet necro bores me to death too. In general I also have a weird complex where I try to get a viable non-meta build that outdoes the actual meta build, which is difficult.

But yeah, I feel as though I can narrow down my list of “mains” to 2 or 3, but it will depend partially on class balance stuff when the expansion launches. I’ll almost assuredly stay with necro, in part because reaper is very strong, and then chronomancer or scrapper will probably be the either primary class or classes I’ll get into. I really liked revenant too for pvp last beta, but with the mallyx rework, it kind of turns me off on it since I don’t really like the power builds.

I main necromancer, but lately I’ve been branching out more into mesmer and engineer. But I’m questioning whether or not its worth it to play 3 or 4 different classes. I do play at a casual level, but I hope to do tournaments eventually, and I’m wondering whether or not multiclassing would be helpful or not. Simply put, my time to practice and learn each class is limited, so I’m afraid that playing 3 or 4 classes would hurt me rather than help me in the longrun.

To confound this, with the expansion coming out, I’m questioning what I really want to play. Reaper, chronomancer, revenant/herald, and scrapper all appeal to me, and I feel that my indecisiveness is also a factor in my questioning of the viability of being a multiclasser in this game.

After actually watching your video, I do say that I will always run the traitline, but just because function gyro and the extra tankiness is so good, and personally, I HATE ALL of the engi traitlines that aren’t alchemy, so I won’t be crying over losing explosives or tools.

I overall love the concepts of the scrapper and everything but I do agree that some traits could be made to be more interesting. Particularly, adaptive armor should honestly function more closely to the necromancer’s corrupter’s ferver in which each stack of the buff the should apply a smaller % of -condition damage and toughness that caps at 20% and 500 (maybe 400 would be more balanced). I’d also make it work when you strike a foe so you have to be in the thick of the battle to maintain it instead of passively surviving, so you could be coutnered by being kited or CCed. I love the idea of rapid regeneration (which makes up for backpack regen being meh) but I’d prefer to have it so only one of the regens could be active at a time. As for mass momentum, I’m not worried about it since its might duration is low, and it requires using a niche trait/kit to be truly effective, although I do agree it feels too passive. I just don’t agree at all that its strong, since with HGH we already have a perfectly balanced form of mightstacking.

I also like the hammer, I just hope that it can free us from having to use grenades for cleave all the time. And regarding celestial, I’m okay with it personally, since it forces us to take some kinda bad traits in firearms to have any condition pressure at all. I’m more worried about what soldier’s builds will be able to put out with this (in terms of passive sustain), but it could honestly either way.

Yeah the hammer autoattack stacks might faster than this trait does.

@Lynnie, I think thats mostly due to conditions being poorly implemented in this game in order to sync better with the fast paced combat system. Conditions are either overwhelming burst (burn guard, dhuumfire era terrormancer) or incidental chip damage on hybrid builds, but not really sustained DPS. Plus AoE teammate cleanse has always made it hard to deal with.

I will say though that purge gyro is trash tier. After its 15 seconds are up it goes on CD for 15 seconds, and in a teamfight it will cleanse allies instead of the engi sometimes during the interval, making the engi more susceptible.

@Bhwab, I think super speed (and alacrity) should be reclassified into boons so that the counterplay paradigm is more even. Although it also needs to not have a stack cap of 1 as well. Also I think most scrappers will only have a few short bursts of SS, because final salvo requires gyro usage, which most engis don’t want to do, and theres a 10 second ICD on the SS generating adept trait.

meow one twenty.4376:

Bhawb.7408:

AoE is definitely one of the strongest counters, but heavily overestimated on how easy it is to just cleave the minions. Burst AoE on long CDs, which is what Necros have, isn’t what counters MM, you have too much healing/defense, too many ways to counter their AoE. Bone Minions are just blown up before they die, Flesh Golem can be charged out of the AoE and won’t return until it’s done pulsing, and your other two minions are ranged.

Reaper is certainly stronger because of Greatsword, and the ability to use Gravedigger and general AoE. But wells are a really weak setup against MM, because of how easily you can avoid their effects and have maybe 1 ability forced onto CD (Flesh Golem, or a ranged minion), while they have 2+ forced, and now they have no burst to kill you.

The builds that would deal with MM really well are engis with kits, elementalist, Shout Reaper, and other builds that bring a ton of incidental AoE on really short CDs, not Wells necro with a massive CD burst that can be avoided really easily and then lack the kind of pressure needed to down the MM before their CDs are back.

BM/DM/SR Wellmancer vs MM goes completely in the other way in a straight up 1v1, from my experience. Unless I have never ever fought a decent MM (plausible) or I am better than I think (plausible). I have seen a MM successfully win a 2v1 against some teammates, then at another time I walked right over him.

I control where your minions go as much as you do and I’ll use them to heal myself. Position myself in a way that breaks LoS and I can pull all but the Wurm, and your Golem will just run into a wall trying to escape. My LF generation is better since I can take Spectral Armor and your minions will always attack me when I have it up. There’s basically nothing you have worth dodging besides Golem and Warhorn 4, and no condi pressure (my only weakness).

Do Wellmancers just throw down all their Wells at once against you? That’s pretty silly for an attrition fight.

Slightly off-topic, but I’ve been running a BM/DM/SR spread with a crusader amulet and I absolutely love the synergies that let it stall a point foreverandeverandever.

Dirtyrascal.1023:

I’d like for Cele to work… always thought it fits nicely with Engi being a ‘Jack-of-all’ class that he is well rounded in the stats department too.

Scrapper certainly looks like this may well become a thing…

Celestial: Scrapper/Tools/Firearms with: Hammer/Healing Turret/Toolkit/Slick Shoes/Elixir Gun//Stealth Gyro…

It’s got everything – damage, CC, stun break, survivability, mobility, melee, ranged, fields, finishers…

Could be a lot of fun…

I think this build could work, but I still feel that alchemy is by far our best traitline for pvp, and elixir gun without alchemy is pretty terrible in my opinion. Basically, I find it very hard to survive in pvp without protection injection, and transmute, alchemical tinctures (free boon duration), hidden flask, and HGH are all really useful as well. Unlike before, self-regulating defenses might turn out to be better than backpack regen, but it will depend on how much passive sustain we need for cele to feel good.

I think tools can work, but I feel that celestial needs firearms and alchemy to function at all, and with elixir B and the adept firearms trait (if you take it) you can make up for the lack of perma-swiftness.

Celestial doesn’t work very well on base engineer right now for many reasons, but the biggest reason is because the sustain and ability to survive repeated bursts is a lot lower after the June patch due to the overall power creep of the meta.

But looking at scrapper, and while it will easily work well with soldier’s, the current go-to setup quite well, I think it has the potential to revive celestial engineer builds. Since the biggest issue with cele engi post-patch was its sustain and defenses, I feel as though traits like Adaptive Armor, and Rapid Regeneration (or Expert Examination) could provide enough sustain to get away with running celestial again.

Right now cele-engi works mostly pretty good offensively, provided that you take Alchemy for mightstacks (and other incidental sustain measures) and firearms for incendiary powder. After that though the build falls apart, because the build can’t be made tanky enough to justify running it at a serious level compared to soldiers.

I think a combination of Firearms/Alchemy/Scrapper could work quite well with celestial. I also think the hammer could replace rifle as the weapon has good mightstacking with the autoattack and also has the CC and block to make it feel like a compromise between grenade kit level physical damage and toolkit level utility (without a bugged pull too). I think rifle can still work, but the synergy opportunities with hammer just seem greater in my mind, and its cleave and AoE leave you free to take kits that aren’t grenades, which means you won’t have to go into explosives anymore.

As for utilities, Heal Turret should be used, and I’d say either elixir gun or FT kit could work for extra utility and damage and condition pressure. Elixir gun gives more sustain, even more might, and has other various utility, while FT kit simply gives you IA and naplam and some extra CC. I’m tempted to just take elixir’s S and B to round out the utils, but I think a gyro or two could work if they get massively buffed/tuned/reworked after the beta :P

For an elite, I’m tempted to use the stealth gyro, but Toss elixir S makes it feel less useful, so I’m not sure about that, but mortar and elixir X could work here.

For traits I think adaptive armor is a must for the tankiness, and any of the adept tier traits could work. For the master tier though I think rapid regeneration will be the best if you can find a way to maintain super speed through trait synergies.Expert Examination has no ICD and gives a ton of weakness, which is also amazing, but I’m not sure if I like that it can only proc with dazes or stuns, since base engi only has a stun on supply crate and a daze on shield (I think, I don’t use it though), whereas all of its other CC is knockdown/backs, launches, pulls, etc, which forces you to run a gyro suicide build to really run this trait, so I’m hoping they change it to an on interrupt proc or something like that.

So what do you think about a celestial scrapper build? Do you think this has a serious chance to come back, or will Soldiers still be the best build?

Personally I’m excited for cele scrapper build. I think that celestial suits base engineer very well offensively without being overpowered, but it just can’t keep up defensively right now, but scrapper traits will probably fix that. I’m about to post a theorycrafting discussion thread about celestial, and I guess its controversial, but because nearly all of our burning on a cele build that doesn’t use FT comes from one proc that can’t stack very high, I don’t think it will be as problematic as the issue with ele. And if cele doesn’t work out for engi, soldier’s will probably still be the most commonly run amulet.

And cele necro could die out if ele’s nerf makes it much less common, but then again being able to use dhuumfire could also keep cele as the goto build for it, even though I personally think that tankier power builds go better than celestial for necro, except against the ele matchup.

I think the traitline is good enough that it will be mandatoey for pvp, just because stability, the function gyro, and the super speed are quite strong.

The weakness trait looks interesting but I’m concerned about it since base engi has very few stuns and dazed to proc it. That’s a long duration weakness, and a ton of scrapper gyro crap he stuns, but I don’t see it being worth it just to proc the trait. I would honestly change it so the trait procs on interrupt, so you could still use it with rifle and and non daze/Stun CC.

The hammer looks really quick and fluid for a hammer and I’m interest in seeing how it works out, although I feel like the thunderclap needs to be shorter duration field on a lower cooldown to provide better CC over time. It may need a damage buff as well,

Some things like adaptive armor, weakness spam or super speed healing and stabilization core make me think that a firearms/alchemy/scrapper celestial build could come back, since the main issue with celestial engi right now is that the sustain is weak, but adaptive armor and one of the two master traits I mentioned seem like they could remedy this effectively on paper.

No. It might be a tad excessive if it did though.

Well it’s not like the blood fiend was ever used by any half decent MM necro, so I wouldn’t worry, unless they pull a necro and nerf heal turret to get you to use other heals.

Lite.3819:

The thing that bugs me about that elite reveal is the 3/4 sec cast time. Won’t see the light of day on my belt. That is one long cast considering almost all of thieves cast are instant. 1 cloak and 1 ss and out of range. Rather toss a grenade at where I think they went.

All in all this traitline makes you stronger against burst but does almost nothing against conditions.

Maybe it’s because I’m a necro main, but 3/4 cast doesn’t sound completely bad to me. I mean tell that to the thief forum people complaining about revealed, tell them how easy it is to interrupt it.

But let’s be real, I mean you don’t have to spam the tool belt skill, whenever they stealth, but it could be incredible utility for forcing revealed through shadow refuge.

Shifu.4321:

nearlight.3064:

Shifu.4321:

Melee engineer will also lack sustain and a reliable source of stability, so they need all the mitigation they can get. Warriors and guards can get away with lesser mitigation because of their great amounts of sustain.

Have you looked at the traits? There are two traits that give stability, and two traits that give sustain. (the superspeed one boosted by other SS traits)

One of the traits giving stability means no Adaptive Armor (both GM). The other one is a 2 stack stability on a minimum 25 second CD AND requires summoning a gyro, which you might not even use and if you do, will probably want to summon it for something other than stability.

As for rapid regeneration, its swiftness component is basically negligible (about the same as guardian virtues and who really uses that for reliable sustain?). As for superspeed, your own lightning field is on a 24 second CD, while the other conditions require a gyro to be destroyed and someone to be revived/finished.

Also, many of the sustain and stability traits are on the same tier, so you have to choose on or the other (getting the lightning field GM or the stab GM means you give up AA)

So great on paper, but in actual usage, not as impressive.

While I agree that the scrapper trait line is overly dependent on synergies, that still means your statement about them not having sustain and stability was wrong.

A lot of streamers who play engi at a top level say that rapid renew ration could bring celestial builds back from the grave. I don’t think it should be counted out, but either way that set up would be gyro dependent, and only the function, blast, and elite gyros seem to be good enough to support the playstyle.

I’m honestly also pretty mixed about the hammer, but only because rifle’s lockdown ability is so strong.

Might get the scientific hammer as well, but only if I get the feeling that hammer will replace rifle as the best pvp weapon. I mean I’ll be making a revenant too, but I don’t want to drop gold on something that I won’t use, and this hammer doesn’t really go with the theme I have in mind for my revenant.

tl;dr-pvp only players are poor.

Shifu.4321:

Melee engineer will also lack sustain and a reliable source of stability, so they need all the mitigation they can get. Warriors and guards can get away with lesser mitigation because of their great amounts of sustain.

Have you looked at the traits? There are two traits that give stability, and two traits that give sustain. (the superspeed one boosted by other SS traits)

tobascodagama.2961:

nearlight.3064:

If Adaptive Defense stacked the -condi damage it’d be blatantly overpowered, unless of course you mean having it stack with -4% up to 5 times to get a max of 20%, which would still be overall weaker than its current form. Also it shouldn’t outdo corrupter’s fervor on necromancer for its role.

I read it as giving “take 20% less damage from conditions” as a permanent effect, then a conditional stacking Toughness buff as a totally separate effect. But I could be wrong, since I’ve only read the Dulfy summary and not watched the video.

Thats exactly how it works, but any condition damage reduction greater than 20% would be totally unfair for a class that has a condition damage weakness.

Plus I think the best GM trait will be final salvo, since the super speed regen trait could allow cele builds to actually have sustain again, which is their biggest flaw in the current meta.

Yeah If I run cleric MM and I’m dueling a power well necro and he puts all of his wells on my minions, they will instantly die unless I’m already pulsing transfusion. I’d imagine that chronomancer wouldn’t be as bad of a matchup since only well of calamity really does a threatening amount of damage, while they other wells seem to be less damage and more support and soft control based. The big issue is that the chronomancer can kite the minions into a well and necromancers can’t really control that.

While MM has been fun and very effective since the AI fix, I probably won’t play it too much anymore, especially since the shouts looks actually viable now. Plus theres scrapper gyros, which may or may not be good, but a few of them look like they could replace certain things on engi to although them to multitask with hammer and rifle, and since they’re duration/cooldown balanced, going clerics to keep them alive like a necromancer would have isn’t viable, since engis have crap AoE heals for AI compared to necros.

If Adaptive Defense stacked the -condi damage it’d be blatantly overpowered, unless of course you mean having it stack with -4% up to 5 times to get a max of 20%, which would still be overall weaker than its current form. Also it shouldn’t outdo corrupter’s fervor on necromancer for its role.

From a pvp point of you I can see the traits as being quite strong. Just take the “meta” soldier elixir build, and drop tools or explosives for scrapper, and pick up the hammer if you want. The traits and function gyro are great pvp utility. I’m not entirely sure if the hammer will outdo rifle though, just because the rifle CC and lockdown ability and burst is so strong, and with nades, we’re not that deficient in cleave for teamfights.

Also certain streamers think that the swiftness/super speed regen traits could revive the cele builds, although grenadier’s velocity boost being locked in explosives, a terrble traitline, will be an obstacle no matter what.

To be honest due to their duration, the gryos feel more like a cross between the old mobile ranger spirits and a necromancer minion, since they provide various utility but can only be up for about 50% of the time or less (ranger spirits were limited by their duration AND health), which was a huge downside. They’d only be viable if just their duration, and not their health mattered, but they want to give a sense of counterplay (for obvious reasons considering the elite).

I think the stealth gyro could be good since the duration rule doesn’t really apply to it and it seems to give perma-stealth (missed livestream so I read tooltips on dulfy) and revealed is strong. But moa could be stronger, and elixir S already gives all of the stealth that you’ll probably need. Being visible and destructable is a downside for sneaking around, but counterplay like that is needed to make it fair. The purge gyro doesn’t seem that bad to me either, but the heal, and bulwark are probably not going to be considered at all.

I think scrapper in general will be used because its traits are awesome, while most of base engi traits that aren’t in alchemy are pretty bad compared to other professions. In particular the function gyro and stability access and things like adaptive armor and super speed will be good to have for pvp, its just a matter of finding the right combination of abilities since many are quite synergistic., although the super speed line will be comparatively weak compared to stability until the super speed cap is removed. The function gryo trait is also amazing pvp utility as well.

The hammer looks strong (and fast for a hammer), but like most elite spec weapons during the first beta it will probably feel really weak and undertuned and will have to have its damage brought up to be competitive. I like what I see so far, but its competing with rifle that gives ranged CC and can facilitate burst combos, even on tanky builds. Hammer will beat it in the AoE department obviously, but will that be enough to justify its existence? Especially when things like grenade kit give you all the cleave pressure you need? Thats what I’m on the fence about.

Kodama, you could, you know, use the function gyro to Rez people in PvE. But if it’s not a fire field or an icebox with you guys, it’s just useless, isn’kitten

Haunted Fast Food, Mime used MoD over decoy. Yeah he wouldn’t give up portal, no way man. Basically it was the extremely overpowered mantra shatter build that got nerfed and is still decent, but not godmode anymore.

Also to be on topic, the scrapper’s function gyro makes well of precogntion seem like child’s play for rezzing and stomping, if I understand correctly.

Well Mystletainn, just don’t buy the expansion if Tempest was the only thing that you were hoping for. Like I said, it will only appeal to you if you hate arcane builds.

Ranael.6423:

nearlight.3064:

Gaaroth.2567:

Well necro is the boon corrupter by definition and is pretty good at it.
Thief can steal them, engi can remove them.
Revenant is a nice addition in the panorama, but is not that we lack it.
Surely, not every class can, but I do not see a problem

Not every Mesmer runs domination, and almost no engineers use throw mine in pvp. I’m merely saying that it’s odd that none of the elite specs have an option for boon removal.

Then it simply means that boon stripping is not a Meta at the moment in the game. I don’t see then how adding more removal would create anything since as you say the already available options are not widely used. It would make sense to have more option if boon removal/corruption would feel like a mandatory role in the game and that only few build were available.
And as Nike said, if it became mainstream then Necro should remain king for it to have their niche, the same way thief is king of blind/defiance removal. Others can do it but not as well, else thief would be out of dungeon with his necro friend.

Well I’m thinking more in terms of PvP than in PvE, but yeah obviously its different between the two game modes.

I wish people would stop comparing necromancer/reaper to the other specs in a vacuum, especially when reaper is the elite spec thats arguably in best shape for release compared to the others. If necro isn’t good enough for you, just go play that class instead.

Genesis.7693:

Jelzouki.4128:

nearlight.3064:

Flesh wurm is perfectly viable, you just have to use your brain and know a good spot to set it up before a fight.

If you have a free spot on a build and the point of your build isn’t to stall and die on a point with Unholy Sanctuary to keep it from being decapped, then wurm should always be considered.

Please don’t be condescending i.e telling others to “use their brain”

Back to the topic, wurm is never considered in any of my builds because of how unreliable it is. Maybe if I’m on battle of khylo thats about it. I would much rather have spectral armor, walk, well of power or plague signet to keep me alive in order to win the fight and support my team better. The only reason it is not considered is because it can be destroyed and its as simple as that.

This.
That is the primary reason why Wurm is absolutely garbage. Anyone decent that has ANY awareness of the game will seek out your wurm and kill it, effectively rendering that utility slot useless. Why would you play with 1 less utility slot? Considering that a necro’s current and most useful role in a team is point holding and 1v1s Wurm is probably the worst utility to use. It’s a counterable stunbreak. I never let any necro running Wurm EVER port to it. Or I keep tabs on it and I know where he’ll port to at all times. It’s the kittentiest form of escape since its a big-kitten brown beacon of “HEY I’LL BE TELEPORTING HERE WHEN I GET PRESSURED” and if you have to escape from a fight using it then you may as well stay on point and die and you’ll be more useful. Considering a that basically anything but a warrior/engi won’t give a kitten about the crappy wurm port you just used you’re better off using something that will allow you to sustain and stay in the fight for longer.

Personally I think it just depends on your role. If you’re main role in the team is to do 1v1s on sidepoints, I find wurm to be invaluable to getting out of a 1v2 scenario. And it can also be useful for disengaging from focus fire in teamfights. And I honestly have rarely had people kill my wurm, mainly it only really dies from moa or me burning plague early which is another matter entirely..

But if the point of your build is to hold a point forever until you die to keep points ticking, kinda like the builds that you run, then yeah wurm wouldn’t do anything for you.

I take wurm if I’m playing some celestial variant focused on 1v1ing things, but I don’t when I run a tankier pointholder type bruiser.

Also, while not the best generalization of the meta, Noscoc sometimes takes wurm, even now, when they fight teamfight oriented comps like radioactive, and on one of his streams he remarked that using wurm in WTS may have made their oRNG matchup go a lot smoother, since their comp was heavily teamfight oriented, and he ended up stalling on points most of the time while his team capitalized on that tactic.

This build looks very “wellestial” If I do say so myself.

Personally I’ve been running a cele variant that takes MoC with Corrupt Boon over locus signet to really make those eles and shoutguards implode on themselves. Its probably not ideal since I lose my AoE boon rip, but I justify it with the two minute plague cooldown.

gannondorf.7628:

Oh my… pretty good synergy in traits! Maybe we can drop alchemy traitline for scrapper! With purge gyro, regen when super speed and less damages from conditions it sounds really great. You can make a tank bulky with inventions, alchemy and scrapper, but make a condi bulky scrapper too with firearms, inventions, scrapper. Really seems we have trait synergy. Now i don’t know if i’m going to main revenant or stay engi.. good things.

I’ll probably still take alchemy for prot injection and transmute alone. If anything I hope we can drop grenades and skip explosives, which is a truly abhorrent excuse for a trait line.

Gaaroth.2567:

Well necro is the boon corrupter by definition and is pretty good at it.
Thief can steal them, engi can remove them.
Revenant is a nice addition in the panorama, but is not that we lack it.
Surely, not every class can, but I do not see a problem

Not every Mesmer runs domination, and almost no engineers use throw mine in pvp. I’m merely saying that it’s odd that none of the elite specs have an option for boon removal.

Also, can wildfire please remove boons again?

The reason that the boon removal on the skill was removed was never explained to us. Even if its toned down to be less boon removal, I still think that boonhate is a serious potential niche for tempest to help differentiate from base elementalist in terms of functionality.

Literally the only new HoT content that can remove boons is Mallyx/Corruption Revenant. Tempest’s wildfire was supposed to pulse boon removal, but was nerfed with no explanation ever given.

We need more boon hate in the game, especially with things like Herald being very boon dependent. Being able to remove or corrupt boons is really fun and helps give boon-based strategies counterplay, but there really isn’t enough in the game.

I know all the elite specializations aren’t out yet, but I for one would like to see more boon removal functionality featured as a unique part of some the new elite specializations.

Mystletainn.6285:

nearlight.3064:

Mystletainn.6285:

nearlight.3064:

At this point, I think it’s mainly just trying to create a substitution for arcane builds by providing a gameplay style that doesn’t depend on constantly swapping attunements, the imbued melodies rework is evidence of that.

Yeah sure, but to me Tempest just feels like they added extra skills onto elementalist rather than actually made it, you know, DIFFERENT.

Well the core gameplay style is different. In the first two betas I couldn’t really get a build without arcane to work, while builds that did use arcane felt like they were too much of an immobile bunker.

I also feel like the complaints that elite specs should offer drastically different things to the class is a bit misplaced. The only specs that had gotten significantly different things in their elite spec were chronomancer and reaper, and those things were designed to give them ways to cover up their deficiencies. Chronomancer is getting an offhand that lets non stealth builds survive and wells that give it AoE damage (the thing they lacked the most) and ways to generate clones outside of dueling traits. Reaper is getting cleave, which necromancer was extremely deficient in, as well as scaling defenses (unholy martyr was the closet the base class really had). Theres DH too, with long ranged combat, but I’m not convinced its strong or worthwhile.

But none of the other elite specs got something really new or different. Berserker got more burn/condition output (which it has in lesser amounts on longbow), daredevil was basically an unnerfed version of prepatch acrobatics. And Tempest, while it is derivative of base elementalist roles, it attempts to do that while offering a playstyle that isn’t based on attunement swapping, and to me, thats as different as an elite spec can get.

Daredevil: Got better interrupts, got a build revolving around interrupts, got a build revolving around endurance, got access to a block and a finisher (EDIT: I mean their elite). They also got more access to more combo finishers which they severely lacked on pistol/pistol. They effectively have Mesmer’s Daze mantra + Powerblock on a single utility skill and have access to slow, a very powerful condition.

Berserker: Got access to taunts, got access to an “undying” trait, got access to burns which they didn’t have, got access to chaining burst skills back to back (EDIT: I mean reaching max adrenaline to burst for Cleansing Ire/Zerker power as well), got access to a ton of stunbreaks and an elite 3 second on demand stun. Also got access to a fire field which they only had on longbow. They got ranged options on all of their primal bursts. They got utility skills which granted them more movement, more reflects, etc. They can not only do condition damage more reliably, they can tank with the taunt built in and reflect projectiles for allies while also massively cc’ing enemies.

Dragonhunter: Got access to traps which included more aegis, reveal, etc. Has the ability to keep enemies in one location with both their elite trap and their longbow 5. They got access to near perma stab with a trait, they have access to a ton of consistent knockback (which they didn’t really have), got access to tons of cripple (which was something they severely lacked), got access to more projectile blocking, more gap closers on their f2, and they have a dps ranged weapon they didn’t have, not to mention a second shield which also blocks attacks in a direction allowing them to tank all damage for allies effectively on top of already have WoR. Also they have access to AoE vigor now. They can also spear an entire zerg or group of enemies with their f1 if they take radiance and massively burn people.

Herald: Massive support, I shouldn’t even have to talk about this one since I’m not experienced enough in Rev but it’s also pretty self explanatory. Shield blocks and heals as well.

What did you mean when they got “nothing new” or “different”? They have the ability to do things they could of never done! What does Tempest have? More of the same thing.

Well theres superspeed, stunbreak for allies, and a lot more group healing than before. There was also boon control in the fire warhorn skills, that was apparently too strong. And I don’t know why you can’t understand that Tempest is supposed to be a different playstyle that allows non-arcane builds to exist, its just not fully there yet. That is the defition of a DIFFERENT kittenING PLAYSTYLE.

And honestly because you and most of the people on this forum are so kitten over tempest not being completely OP like the rest of base elementalist, you have to realize that the dev’s are approaching tempest much more cautiously than the other elite specs, since elementalist isn’t horribly deficient in anyone thing that is integral to their meta status in all game modes unlike most of the other classes, so they have to be careful with the new things they add to it. I mean do you really think that adding taunt and slow and resistance in huge amounts to the the ele’s kit would be healthy for the game? Why do you think they’re nerfing heat sync/wildfire? Its because they’d rather not create more of a monster than what they’ve already created.

And as we all know that if they handle balancing ele the wrong way, it will completely fall apart because its dependent on a specific set of trait synergies to stay alive, and its been carried by the fact that boosts to both condition and direct damage are in fire (engi used to have this too, but anet gutted that) and both healing and condition management is in water with arcane and swap bonuses holding it all together. The devs will either reallocate the spread of what trait lines can do what like they did to gut cele engi, or they can limit the effectiveness of everything to the point that there is no hope.

And the reason that I bring this up is that I beleive that Tempest could save base ele after its been rebalanced in the next patch, and I honestly think they’re taking their time to prepare that, so that the 3 existing traitlines used in most pvp levels are brought down to tempest levels of efficiency.

Anyway, I’m tired and I’m getting ranty, so I’m going to decline to argument further for now, and I merely suggest that you try looking at Tempest in the larger scheme of the game, especially in regards to its viability being hinged on future balance.

ronpierce.2760:

Kain Francois.4328:

What happened to the Axe changes?

They’re coming with the upcoming balance notes for the core classes. They will likely all come at once. Beta/Elite spec changes are a separate topic from base class changes. I haven’t heard a more definite time-frame on the core changes though, all Gee told me a week ago was that it was delayed and would be some time after the Elite spec changes, which is now apparent.

Yeah, personally I don’t see this balance patch happening until right before the launch of HoT. It would be cool if it could come sooner, but they have so much to do, and some things like D/D ele balance honestly sound like crazy challenges to overcome.

Mystletainn.6285:

nearlight.3064:

At this point, I think it’s mainly just trying to create a substitution for arcane builds by providing a gameplay style that doesn’t depend on constantly swapping attunements, the imbued melodies rework is evidence of that.

Yeah sure, but to me Tempest just feels like they added extra skills onto elementalist rather than actually made it, you know, DIFFERENT.

Well the core gameplay style is different. In the first two betas I couldn’t really get a build without arcane to work, while builds that did use arcane felt like they were too much of an immobile bunker.

I also feel like the complaints that elite specs should offer drastically different things to the class is a bit misplaced. The only specs that had gotten significantly different things in their elite spec were chronomancer and reaper, and those things were designed to give them ways to cover up their deficiencies. Chronomancer is getting an offhand that lets non stealth builds survive and wells that give it AoE damage (the thing they lacked the most) and ways to generate clones outside of dueling traits. Reaper is getting cleave, which necromancer was extremely deficient in, as well as scaling defenses (unholy martyr was the closet the base class really had). Theres DH too, with long ranged combat, but I’m not convinced its strong or worthwhile.

But none of the other elite specs got something really new or different. Berserker got more burn/condition output (which it has in lesser amounts on longbow), daredevil was basically an unnerfed version of prepatch acrobatics. And Tempest, while it is derivative of base elementalist roles, it attempts to do that while offering a playstyle that isn’t based on attunement swapping, and to me, thats as different as an elite spec can get.

I’m also happy that the communication regarding Tempest is starting to be a lot more open. And the changes to traits and stuff and whatnot actually make me excited to try and play Tempest again, compared to the last beta where not much had changed so I barely played it.

But I won’t truly feel satisfied with Tempest until I can make a a build that feels good with it that doesn’t use Arcane, as the basic design principles and the things like Imbued Melodies 2.0 seem to be pushing a substitute for arcane that spams boons without the need for attunement swapping, so we’ll have to see how that works.

Also regarding the lightning jolt, and overload air’s new function, could we receive more clarity of this? I assume that the jolt would be equivalent to an air sigil or scepter 2 or air minor 2 proc (lightning strike). A daze proc would be kind of broken, it would be like venomshare storm style. And does the jolt buff apply at the beginning or end of the channel?

Silverkey.2078:

In the meanwhile, I’m curious about what build your friend was playing. Any chance you may share it?

Well since it wa a joke build it probably wasn’t optimal but it was sw/p staff, settler amulet, and I believe it was chaos/inspiration/illusions, but illusions may have been dueling instead. It was a while ago so I don’t remember everything but I think he took illusion of life, portal, and either blink or nullfield or something, and most likely the mantra heal.

At this point, I think it’s mainly just trying to create a substitution for arcane builds by providing a gameplay style that doesn’t depend on constantly swapping attunements, the imbued melodies rework is evidence of that.

The problem is that synergy and cooldown management between arcane and water is just too good, to the point where tempest won’t be a wise choice unless one or both those trees get heavily nerfed. It conflicts with classic ele design because it’s trying to promote less attunement swapping. If the overloads were actually good, and arcane traits weren’t, then I think it could actually work. With stability they’ll have a fighting chance, but still the cooldown for using them is too steep for the benefit they can bring.

Exciton.8942:

If your friend can 1v3/4 with a certain build, that only means the game doesn’t have enough merit to indicate how well the build can work. It only means the players in that game are too bad.

I recently am playing shoutbow warrior on my alt account. There are always 2-3 players chasing me around not being able to kill. But that only says they are bad players. Evidence like that don’t prove anything.

If you want to argue that bunker mesmer is viable, come up with a build and do more extensive testing on it.

Sure thing, but you’ll have to wait a while for my full report considering Chronomancer will probably be needed for the best support builds.

The V.8759:

I am hyped Got my scientific hammer ready, a kitteneaper but way fancier imo

I was supposed to say c h e a p e r, but it made kitten…

I totally plan on buying that hammer for my engi as well, but I’m not too rich (thanks pvp) and I need to buy the tormented shield for my mesmer first, and I’m concerned that the prices will go way up due to the key farm nerf

I’m considering remaking my engi as sylvari and getting the dreamthistle hammer instead, but I probably won’t.

@Silverkey and ScaryFastfood

I just want to chime in about this argument real quick. One of my friends would play a settler amulet bunker mesmer sometimes for fun, and it actually worked pretty well in the support/tank a point category, more so than one would thing. He pretty much never died, even when 1v3or4ing, and I’m sure thats not even the ideal setup for a bunker/support mesmer (helseth also ran this in one tourney against a fairly random team and wiped the floor with them).

Furthermore one of the biggest flaws for support guard that is continually capitalized on in tournaments is that bunker guards lack mobility, so teams with thieves have a huge advantage of them. Look at the last WTS or Radioactive on NA as an example for this. Radioactive is one of the best teams on NA, but their comp (staff ele, 2 shoutguards, 2rampage warriors) is so teamfight oriented that they’re very susceptible to being outrotated. A mesmer can be built to be much more mobile with the tricks staff can do, as well as blink and portal if you have room for them. Thats a huge advantage over bunker guard.

The well of precognition change easily gives it better support than signet distortion share builds that some have theorized, and the channeled block on the shield will help it withstand burst.

Also people were talking about mantra of distraction, and I should add that Mime still plays mantra-interrupt mesmer in a top team on NA. Adding to that though, I think well builds could easily compete with mantras for offensive support builds, much like Chaos’s tik tok well alacrity-spam build, although probably with precognition, GS over staff, and possibly portal since the build can roam and 1v1 decently, even if that zerkish setup can’t hold a point very well.

So anyway I do totally think that support based mesmer builds could become a very likely choice in the coming meta, but offensive support builds or more debilitating slow/lockdown roaming builds will also be really common as well. I’m just happy that the shield can now compete with torch

So far alacrity with chronomancer is the only such new shared boon that’s pumped out by an elite spec. And it’s kittening great. Meanwhile resistance sharing isn’t very widespread and neither is slow application, which chronomancer are again the masters of, while revenant has some in a slightly limited way.

There’s super speed technically with tempest and herald, but it’s pretty limited, and scrapper appears to be getting some group superspeed as well. The devil will be in the details, but I postulate that arenanet ran out of new, fresh, and innovative support mechanics after designing chronomancer and revenant.

Hopefully scrapper gets boon hate somehow, there isn’t nearly enough of it for how boon dependent this game is, and none of the HoT content is bringing it aside from corruption/Mallyx.

Aretak.3826:

So the drones are spirit weapon inspired apparently. Have they not learned? AI reliance is a horrible mechanic and avoided like the plague; they drop like flies, are unresponsive and are something the player has far too limited control over (especially for the tight gameplay for Engi). We of course already have a set of AI skills. This spec going to have some of the least testing time available too so I’m supremely skeptical. I just hope the traits aren’t too focused on the new skills like Berserker’s are.

Also contrary to what they say in the article I don’t see this filling any special role previously unavailable. Engi is always most effective within close range, having AI skill is the worst way to try and augment this.

I think they mean that the drones are inspired by minions/spirit weapons in the way that chronomancer wells are merely inspired by necromancer wells. Whereas minions/spirit weapons just stand there and try to attack, it seems like the drones will fulfill other support based as well as damage based roles, in the way that chronomancer wells provide both damage and meaningful support compared to necromancer wells.