Guild Wars 2

Well reading this thread has been a fun distraction from homework.

Anyway forum-goers, we just have to trust in Robert Gee, that he will do what is right and just for the reaper and the necromancer class. You must all #GEELIEVE

I would love to have Jalis be tauntier. The energy cost of that skill was the main reason I didn’t spend much time with it.

Choppy.4183:

nearlight.3064:

Just because something is strong and used in every build, is that enough to mean it should become a free trait?

How would you like an elementalist with a baseline elemental attunement, or a necromancer with a baseline vital persistance?

On second thought, I think I understand now. Is fast hands more similar to elemental attunement or vital persistance? Can you have a functionally good build without it? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain that if something like fast hands was made baseline, traits like the two I mentioned above and others like grenadier on engi would have to receive similar treatment.

That’s true, being strong isn’t a justification for making it baseline.

Do you find warriors to be OP with pretty much every warrior running the trait, no matter the build? Most people don’t.

That leads to the question, “would warriors be UP if they didn’t have FH?”.

Well, if we accept that warriors aren’t OP with the trait, the trait is strong, and there’s been an almost total absence of builds that don’t use FH across all aspects of the game (especially in competitive arenas), then I’d say yes, they probably would be UP without it.

The argument in favour of making FH baseline isn’t to bring more power to warriors. Whatever power it brings to the warrior class, pretty much all warriors already have it… they’ve been balanced to include that reality.

The argument for making FH baseline is about increasing the potential build diversity for the class. Discipline’s a strong line in its own right and hard to pass up, but practically nobody’s going to do it, especially in a competitive arena, as long as FH is there.

I regret opening this can of worms. Right now warrior is weak in my opinion, because it can’t abuse celestial stats, so its stuck being either a frail rampager that needs shoutguard support or a settler’s shoutbow that has almost no damage to speak of. There isn’t really a build thats suitably tanky that does decent damage at the same time, the bruiser role has been kinda diminished on them, and everything else that isn’t a bruiser is inferior.

But warriors all have the theoretical tools to use celestial, but it doesn’t work right now because the survivability isn’t there. Would fast hands help with this? What other viable build options would having this trait baseline open up?

Choppy.4183:

nearlight.3064:

Yeah after reading through the first page I’m not really convinced. Most of the arguments that supported fast hands were, “we should have this baseline becuase its a warrior thing”. And I don’t think that’s a good argument, especially since it doesn’t tie into warrior class mechanics on your own. Its just a way to avoid using autoattacks when things are on cooldown.

Something like Ilusionary Persona on the other hand needed to be baseline because the mesmer class mechanic was unviable weak and inflexible without it. With fast hands, that logic doesn’t make sense.

If you actually cared to know, you would have read more than a page.

Your counter rationale could be similarly applied to any class feature with about the same validity (i.e. not much). “Warriors, eles and guards get by without stealth, so I don’t see why the other classes need it”, “Engineers and eked get by without having an alt weapon set, so I don’t see why the others need it”, etc.

The simplest route to evaluate whether FH should be baseline is to infer it from the following:

Since launch, has there been a meta build that didn’t trait FH?

Yes, one. A dungeon build that camped one weapon to provide max might to the party.

Does pretty much every warrior build in a competitive arena (PvP, Wvw) trait FH, whether meta or not?

Maybe excluding a few outliers, it certainly appears so.

Is there any reason to think it’s the (excellent) Discipline traitline and not FH specifically that’s capturing builds?

Yes, pre June 24 there were several builds that only went deep enough into Disc to get FH, often at the expense of other good traits on other lines.

Wouldn’t baseline FH make warriors OP?

Not unless you think they’re OP now, because just about every one has been running FH since launch, including Condi, direct damage, tank , and support builds.

Just because something is strong and used in every build, is that enough to mean it should become a free trait?

How would you like an elementalist with a baseline elemental attunement, or a necromancer with a baseline vital persistance?

On second thought, I think I understand now. Is fast hands more similar to elemental attunement or vital persistance? Can you have a functionally good build without it? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain that if something like fast hands was made baseline, traits like the two I mentioned above and others like grenadier on engi would have to receive similar treatment.

Yeah I tried out the shout heal since I was running augury with Rise, but it wasn’t very useful, and overall consume conditions just felt more useful, even if I had almost twice as high of a cooldown as the traited shout heal.

Kodiak.3281:

So the long story short is there was some drama in T1, some guilds tried to push BG to T2, wasn’t working so they moved to T2 to try to push another server up and disrupt everything. Except ANet then locked the server transfers effectively. This basically fully wrecked T2 as the guilds that moved around are fairly renown for using “disreputable” tactics which drove a lot of guilds off all the T2 servers (YB, SOS, and FA). Most of those groups moved down to T3 where they can do more GvG style action. This has left 4 T1 servers effectively bringing back the scenario where T1 is full of action each week and T2 is just a free week for the T1 server that goes down.

Really be surprised if there were 20k single hits with CORuin and not multi-hits such as people running away and getting blapped with 2 hits or that number is based on hitting multiple people. Most I’ve hit for in WvW with all things going for it was around 9k (individual target) at max distance with 223% crit damage.

Oh wow, yeah due to the costs of transfers and the horrible chaos you describe, I’ll probably stick to spvp. I’ve been thinking about trying to get involved in tourneys for a long time anyway.

Yeah there was a screenshot of someone hitting Pyroatheist (a mesmer forum person) with CoR for 20K with pvp stats (most likely boosted by cruel reprcussions). Its in the complaining that herald is OP thread in the pvp forum..

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Amante.8109:

Pretty much. Revenant feels a lot like Death Knight was in WoW, where the passion they have for making a new class combined with the accumulated design experience of having worked on the game for years means the new class is simply better. More efficiently tuned and synergized, bigger numbers… just overall BETTER.

At this rate, they’re going to need another round of trait revamps just for most core professions to keep up.

I agree with this statement. This has happened on most MMORPGs that I have played in the past when they introduce a new character class or profession. They really need to make sure that they don’t make Revenant SO good that there is really no point in playing any of the other professions.

I don’t think this will be a problem. Its versatile but many niches, like stealth, water fields, healing/group condi cleanse (if ventari doesn’t get reworked), AoE DPS and mobility are just better fulfilled by other professions. There are more that I can’t even think of right now.

I think Amarante’s point about fixing problems with other classes is valid though. I mean we are still riddled with bugs on skills since launch, bad weaponsets, and rarely bad class mechanics. And overall at the heart of this game’s pvp, there hasn’t been much to play besides a bruiser, zerker, or supportbot, and the concept of attrition involves spamming burning and water attunement swap rotations until your opponent dies.

Elegie.3620:

Hi,

nearlight.3064:

I don’t see how you’d need fast hands. All the other classes deal with the normal weapon swap cooldown just fine. You can make a more compelling argument for discipline as a whole. But saying you need fast hands baseline seems to be a bit much.

However I cannot properly make a counterpoint without understanding the argument for it, so if someone can show me exactly why just fast hands being baseline is needed for the warrior, then I’ll see if your argument compels me, a nonwarrior player about it.

This topic was discussed a few months ago in a lengthy thread. There were many good (and bad) inputs in the thread, feel free to scan it if you want to know more.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Make-Fast-Hands-Warrior-Sprint-Baseline/first

I don’t know if Fast Hands should be made baseline or not. I know, however, that I couldn’t play competitively without it (PvP-wise), because my skill rotations would suffer too much (you can just use the AA once your skills are on CD, the adrenaline-based mechanics is very simple, almost poor, it does not enhance much the basic gameplay – so I’d be kited to death without aggressive rotations).

Yeah after reading through the first page I’m not really convinced. Most of the arguments that supported fast hands were, “we should have this baseline becuase its a warrior thing”. And I don’t think that’s a good argument, especially since it doesn’t tie into warrior class mechanics on your own. Its just a way to avoid using autoattacks when things are on cooldown.

Something like Ilusionary Persona on the other hand needed to be baseline because the mesmer class mechanic was unviable weak and inflexible without it. With fast hands, that logic doesn’t make sense.

Honestly after playing Herald with its 20 second cooldown revealed skill, I don’t think PU really needs it duration nerfed anymore.

I still think there needs to be slightly more revealed in the game and better ways to apply it, since right now only some engineers and revenants will bring revealed into a pvp match at a competitive level, when its arguably thematically fitting that mesmer/necro/thief should have some access to it.

On another note, I’m floored with how little boon-rip has been given out to HoT exclusive stuff. Like none of the elite specs got it, just mallyx and corruption.

Markus.9084:

Adamantium.3682:

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy

So if you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Alchemy as an engineer.
If you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Mallyx as a Rev.

Again, isn’t it fair ?

The comparison isn’t that cut and dry. Mallyx with a power build is pointless since you just get the resistance and some icidental boonrip but no other real form of damage or sustain. Corruption is in a similar boat, however it doesn’t due anything on its own to truly help with condis without mallyx compared to invocation.

If you run some combination of invocation, jalis, generosity sigils, lyssa runes, staff, glint, you’ll have enough sustain against conditions to get by. You only need to run 2 or 3 of those things to feel it.

And lets not forget, the way revenant traits work make valkyrie builds an actually viable choice due to rolling mists, so you can have a build that can hit as hard as a standard zerker that has much more health to endure damaging conditions, while shiro makes debilitating movement impairing conditions a non-issue. Alternatively you can take Jalis over shiro to handle it better, while being more of a defensive brawler.

Alchemy is also different than mallyx/corruption because it offers a ton of passive defensive things to Engineer, including protection injection, self-regulation defenses or backpack regeneration, as well as elixir might-stacking. It could be argued that traits like prot injection/selfreg make alchemy a traitline about surviving burst just as much as one about surviving conditions, as well as going offensively with HGH. Mallyx is about using the enemies condition output against themself in a much more brawler-oriented style than say a signet or corruption necromancer. Meanwhile retribution mimics alchemy much more than corruption of mallyx do. One of the retribution traits is literally the same thing as protection injection! Its just different in that it emphasizes dodging and being a bruiser more than alchemy, which is more about enduring coordinated bursts in its most effective format.

They’re not as comparable as you think.

Kodiak.3281:

Well the ideas behind Mace largely were the abundance of Fire Field and the triple blast finisher and not really the damage. The problem with Echoing Eruption however is that it’s a leap followed up by (blast)(blast)(blast) in that order and area where they blast so you often times have to back up super far to land 1-2 blast finishers in the area you want which just isn’t practical.

3 Way battles are the only things that get me. I have a lot of footage I can’t really show because it’s honestly pretty bad with how WvW is setup when all 3 factions are fighting in the same area. I have a lot of fights where I do poorly not because of character or ability but simply because abilities don’t trigger. I watched me spam my heal skills for like 30 seconds one fight and eventually just fell over dead because nothing worked.

All good man. Elementalist is a mess as far as classes go. They already got the lowest armor/HP of any class. The heals they do are all tiny and small. The bulk of their survivability is all boons. If they tug on one thread the whole thing collapses like we saw for a very long time with the Elementalist. I’ve actually been very surprised how little boon hate has been added with the expansion to help counter the class and others like it so focused on boons. That said everyone has interests what they want for each class as PvEers want a Specialization to be good for them, SPvPers good for them and WvWers good for them and Tempest was definitely no exception.

Yeah, I can’t really speak for T1, but I used to be really active in a SoS WvW raiding guild. I don’t even know if SoS is still T2 or not because I don’t follow the scene at all anymore. While it was fun, since SoS is such an oceanic/aus carried server, during the NA timezone it’d be so hard to really succeed at just wandering around looking for fights because maguuma and the other sever that I can’t even remember would just destroy as left and right. Hahaha but yeah I’d get back into it if my computer could handle it realistically. The guild I was in was prepping for GvGs too, but then I quit due to general boredom with the game, and I think I was kittened at underwhelming necromancer balance patch too at the time. Then the expansion lured me back, so I’m here, and I’m honestly thinking of swapping my main to revenant since its just so fun, effective, and flavorful compared to other classes.

And yeah the hammer range, high AoE damage, and the relatively low cooldown blasts all make it sound really awesome in theory. I am afraid it will get nerfed due to all of the 20K CoR hits in zerker gear in PvP.

I just think that burning needs to be nerfed, and bleeding needs to be buffed. The difference between their damage potential is way too great. Instead of having burn be 4.5 times as powerful as bleeding, make it more like a 2 times difference. That way you could buff bleed and nerf burn without making shaving it so much that burning becomes weak.

I agree that other classes look a bit deficient by comparison to revenant in its finished but slightly unpolished state.

In particular necromancer weaponsets, and arguably core mechanics are very weak and need to be reworked.

Ranger is similar but with worse mechanics but better weaponsets. Traits are also a tad worse too.

Warrior has good weaponsets, but somehow its design is having a hard time adapting to this meta. I’m not really sure how I’d rework it.

Engineer is mostly great with good core weaponsets, and 1 or 2 good kits (even toolkit is questionable noe due to bugs), but it has massive trait issues. The trait rework was quite detrimental for it compared to all of the other classes. It remains a somewhat strong class due to sheer versatility in the things it can do, especially in regard to CC and cleave. Its condition weakness keeps it reasonably in check and doesn’t feel like much of a concern even after the condition check.

Everything else has been reworked to a state of relative goodness, even after years of mediocrity (see mesmer pre-June).

Revenant is also strong because each of its legends take the best things about a distinct playstyle and make it extremely specialized. You have conditions/attrition/sacrifice (very complex), a mobile burster, and a tanky bruiser all as possible highly specialzied roles with Glint holding it together with the glue that is team/personal support through boons. Theres also area support through healing, which is less synergistic than simply support through boons.

I’m more concerned with what elite spec they could do after herald for it. All the based of the 4 archetypical playtstyles of most MMOs are there in the base class, so the elite spec has to hold things together to make the highly specialized role more versatile in what it can do.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Yeah I agree with this. But for those with more limited pvp experience..

The “meta” soldier’s engi builds have 2 condis cleansed on heal turret, and up to 5 with elixirs and transmute procs (not counting X, don’t waste it for a cleanse), and 3 of those elixir cleanses are on long cooldowns. You could even run less cleanse if you wanted to take toolkit for better defense against burst.

Revenant with invocation and Jalis has roughly the same ability to cleanse conditions, even more if staff is taken, and the upkeep skill that makes condis less effective. With glint, its even further as I’m pretty sure we can all consider Infuse Light to be a strong counter measure against conditions. If you consider infuse light to be a trump card against conditions, and really it is for those precious few seconds, then Jalis revenant build should be roughly equivalent to soldier’s engis in terms of cleansing. That build is desgined to feel more like a bruiser rather than a burster thats shown through shiro.

Most of the complaint comes from people that play shiro/glint. The evade on shiro cures movement impairing conditions instantly, and the whole playstyle is designed to enable a high risk, high reward gameplay. Shiro gives you the tools to avoid damage effectively and help evade through condition causing skills. People need to know their limits of what they can and can’t 1v1, especially since most condition builds in pvp are designed to only 1v1, but fail at teamfighting. Shiro revenant is overall stronger because you don’t have that limitation. Your damage in a teamfight isn’t nullified by a random guardian or warrior shouting every 4 seconds, or the ele rotationbot just doing its thing.

Think about what your build can handle, and what it can’t before you start to think its weak.

Also regarding Mallyx, its strong 1v1 against condition builds and it synergizes well with condition builds, and gives condition builds their best chance to damage in teamfights should the enemy have enough condi pressure. I’d say if you aren’t doing/playing one of those, Jalis is a more versatile option. Also Roy, I’m glad you’re addressing the friend cleanse problems when using Mallyx. Nothing made me sigh more this past beta then when I had built up resistance, started and started Embrace the Darkness, only to have my huge stack of burns erased through passive incidental support that was well intentioned. I think it also help me use mallyx more offensively in general, since I felt like I was too under the condition threshold for banish enchantment and unyielding anguish a lot of the times in teamfights compared to what I felt like I should be doing, so the condi pressure suffered as a result.

This was a pretty cool video! And yeah I agree that hammer is a better weapon for WvW, let alone any power based build than mace. Its power coefficients are to low, even if its condi-cleave is really good.

I haven’t WvWed seriously in a year, but this video has made me want to try it again when HoT comes out, although my complete drop in FPS might deter me otherwise.

And I know we’ve argued a lot about tempest in the past on the ele forums, and to be honest, I’m kind of over it. The only reason I liked it was the fact that I had howler. Everytime I played it, its felt unfun. But after trying herald in just pvp, it kinda reignited my interest for the expansion. Anyway, nice video, and kudos to you.

This is very similar to the build I concluded with. Carrion herald with mace/axe and hammer. I didn’t really consider mine a true hybrid though and I didn’t focus on mightstacks as much as you in your build, as I took a condi damage rune instead.

Calling it a hyrbid is kinda tough to do so, since mace autoattack coefficients suck with power scaling, even if the other skills are a bit better, leaving revenant without a hyrbid weapon like necro staff, ele everything, warrior LB or pre-patch engi nade kit. The hammer and sword skills scale much better with power, but have 0 hybridization to them. The only truly hybrid weapon is off-hand axe. I find the hammer essential in pvp due to its utility and range, and as a condi focused build.. you have pretty much no other choice if you go fully down that route.

Anyway, aside the struggle of whether or not a hybrid revenant build can exist, there are some flaws in your build to my eyes. Personally for a build that is heavily condition-based, I think retribution is MUCH better than invocation. The only thing you really miss is the free stunbreak, but having 2 stacks of stability on dodge (you can use enhanced bulwark), higher prot uptime, weakness, and two -10% damage modifiers increase your’re survivability greatly, although coordinated focus fire will still end you either way.

Regarding invocation, I think you should only go into it for rolling mists. Cleansing channel and the stunbreak are other lesser perks as well, but condi cleansing actually hurts your ability to abuse mallyx, so I think theres some strong anti-synergy with mallyx and invocation. Charged mists is just an awkward way of might stacking. I hate it so much.

I’m not much of a warrior player but this argument looks interesting.

I don’t see how you’d need fast hands. All the other classes deal with the normal weapon swap cooldown just fine. You can make a more compelling argument for discipline as a whole. But saying you need fast hands baseline seems to be a bit much.

However I cannot properly make a counterpoint without understanding the argument for it, so if someone can show me exactly why just fast hands being baseline is needed for the warrior, then I’ll see if your argument compels me, a nonwarrior player about it.

ReaperJr.5967:

For mallyx/glint, putting aside unyielding anguish, it maintains a high resistance uptime and adequate condition pressure and damage from Mace AA. Boon strip from mallyx is no joke either. Glint provides the defenses it needs from power builds while not hindering the amount of damage it can deal with a Celestial amulet. UA is great as an active defense and damage dealer here.

So uh, sure, revenant isn’t op.

Mace autoattacks are fairly easy to kite unless you play a tanky bruiser that has to be on point and in your face, in which case you’d probably have the sustain to take that kind of fight to begin with. So many people don’t know what they can and can’t 1v1, and that’s why they complain.

Also, I’m not entirely convinced that celestial works well on revenant. Simply put, the mace’s power coefficients are too low, especially on the autoattack. Its only workable on Echoing Eruption and the axe skills. Also the fire field is a lot less broken for burn spam than what a D/D ele can put out. Overall, I just didn’t get a really good “feel” from sword and mace based celestial revenant builds. I honestly think it would feel better with hammer and either mace/axe or just sword/axe, that is if hammer doesn’t get nerfed from the 20K pvp zerker revenant Coelescence of Ruin screenshots. Also, unrelenting Assault doesn’t really “feel” that strong or amazing to me with celestial stats.

Bitoku Kishi.8346:

Cecilia.5179:

Without Mallyx, Revenant simply doesn’t stand a chance against even the most temperate condition specs.

You’re giving the solution to this problem right in your opening statement: use Mallyx stance, or at least the Corruption traitline.

Well to be accurate, the corruption traitline without mallyx does nothing to help you manage or remove conditions, while mallyx without corruption works due to Pain absorption, but its not as strong without demonic defiance. Things like replenishing despair sound helpful, but 51 healing won’t exactly negate the 1.5K damage per second you can get from a stack of burns.

In fact a build without mallyx has little reason to go into corruption at all, aside from some incidental boon removal, and manaical persistance, a form of crit-substitution for valkyrie/crusader builds that is an overall inferior choice to rolling mists. The master tier traits due provide some interesting utility for a power build, but ultimately, without mallyx, corruption doesn’t really work, especially not for managing conditions.

Don’t get me wrong, I do feel as though the condition weakness is fine, and like other supposedly condi weak classes like engineer and mesmer, dedicating a large portion of your build (alchemy with stacked elixirs, inspiration with mantras, or corruption with mallyx) to mitigate that weakness is fair and justified. And after some thinking, power-based revenant sans demon builds really do have just enough tools to manage conditions well enough while still be appropriately weak to them. It could be slightly better, but after trying it I think its fine. You just have to avoid 1v1ing condition based specs (obviously) and 1v1 non-condi builds or stick to teamfights where your team should have oodles of passive AoE cleanse!

Also, lots of people forget about the Jalis heal being really helpful because so many just take Shiro/Glint. I think Jalis/Glint could be a potentially better power build setup if the Jalis utilities have their energy costs balanced a bit better. But mainly because as we know from ranger, a somewhat buggy taunt can be really strong (it still shouldn’t cost as much as the elite though, just saying).

And also, Axe 4’s cooldown should stay the same becuase its a condi build’s only way to chase down fleeing targets and close gaps. Without its low cooldown, condi Revenants will be kited forever, which is noticeable since condi revenant is probably the most-melee centric condition spec in the game. It needs that gap close to use its tools effectively.

Kodama.6453:

Ii`m really sad about their reveals too. I just don’t know why they did it that way. If they had revealed 3 professions between each beta weekend, that seems fair. But what did they do? First 4 professions, then 3 and then 2 professions left. How did they come to the conclusion this pattern would be a good idea? It just feels like a slap in the face of all our fellow rangers and engineers.

I really hope these 2 remaining elite specs are going to be fantastic, because they have to be if we want to have a chance against all the others, which already got tested.

Elementalist even got its elite skill rework, I really doubt we will get the same effort…..

To be honest, the original iteration of that elite skill was so terrible that it should never have been thought into the games files. Let’s hope the forge won’t even have anything bad enough to be reworked in the first place.

I’ve discussed this before in my GM trait discussion thread and I disagree with you about Pulsating pestilence. It should only trigger at a condition threshold of 3 or more conditions and then have a 100% chance to trigger at or above that threshold. It’s cooldown can be slightly raised accordingly to 20 seconds or so, but that’s the only way to make this trait GM worthy and reliable. Right now it triggers when you have none or few conditions on you, rendering it a tad useless.

For dismantle fortifications I think it should let one CC ability go through all stacks of stability (but wouldn’t strip the stability) every 45 seconds. That way it’d be useful against skills like armor of earth where you really won’t be able to spend 5 CCs to go through 10 stacks in the span of 5 seconds.

Neceromancer, either hybrid or condi do amazing in 1v1s if they have life force. Minions also work well for 1v1 except vs. zerker warrior or elixir based engineer.

They can’t disengage a +ed fight without flesh wurm/and or plague though, which can make the whole goal of 1v1ing things a but convoluted.

NineLives.8725:

I always insult them back 2 times harder because I am not wise at all, even when it’s not addressed to me, even if I am perfectly aware “they started it first” is childish.
I also report/block. I am sure they report me back, and I never got banned for my overreactions, so I am also sure the report system is just useless.
Anyone who can’t take his part of a defeat and prefer to insult his team is just the first guilty of the failure he want to reject : he played against his own team and out of it the whole time and finally prove it at the end.

A certain neceromancer streamer on EU is prove that the report system doesn’t work.

Mosharn.8357:

It has the same issues warrior had during the release months of the game in the (condi cleanse department)

I really hope they change some of the bland GM traits for some condi removal on X amount of energy usage

Yeah exactly and I think we need to be careful to avoid repeating the warrior mistake with cleansing ire/brawlers recovery and not over buff receive any condi cleanse to the point where an originally condi weak class gained the capability to make themselves and their allies immune to conditions altogether (see shoutbow during cele meta).

I honestly think that the only changes we need are to have cleansing channel cure 2 conditions instead of 1, and to give retribution/salvation a way of managing conditions through traits in a way that’s manageable but not completely to the extreme. Transmute and alchemical tinctures in the Engi’s alchemy line are a good example of balanced condition removal that retains the weakness to conditions but provides enough room for counterplay in your build that you aren’t 100% hardcoubtered by stray rings of fire strewn about the battlefield.

The main issues are energy costs of Mallyx and Jalis, and the GM traits I listed in my discussion thread on that topic. Condition management should slightly buffed, but not too much so we don’t have another shoutbow warrior immune to condis when it was supposed to be their weakness at launch.

Also in general, mace/axe feels a bit too easy to be kited, even with the gap closer, and that’s bad because this class has 0 ranged condition pressure, it’s all pretty much melee.

You are very unlikely to have both of these skills on the same build, unless you ran a strange celestial glint/Mallyx build with sword, which I doubt is a highly viable build.

Secondly I beleive that unyielding anguish should be slightly reworked to only displace on the initial leap and cast of the field, but it should displace someone a bit farther away. Afterwards the field should persist and pulse torment based on how many conditions the revenant has, but shouldn’t displace anymore. Simply put the field is too good for displacement of classes without teleports, but the condi pressure is a tad weak.

posthumecaver.6473:

Rev doesn’t have to much access protection, I thought it would be nice to have some after healing but it doesn’t synergies with the trait.

Take herald and retribution (with glint and either Mallyx or shiro) and you’ll have enough protection most of the time to weather most CC based bursts.

It’s not ideal for a power build though, as invocation overall has better synergies than retribution.

Use settler’s amulet with transfusion and life from death to keep your minions alive.

The primary MM necros on here have established that cleric’s is the best amulet. I haven’t tried a condition based MM build yet (though its on my list of things to test), but settler’s would be the best since it has healing power.

To be honest I probably won’t try it until scepter gets “fixed” to not have crap life force gen and crap condi pressure. But by that point HoT will probably be almost out, and minion reaper sounds like a great idea, but probably won’t synergize as well with conditions due to being unable to take soul reaping or curses.

At times I was lagging quite bad right next to you, quite literally in fact.

ronpierce.2760:

nearlight.3064:

Yeah I only really tried hammer on a soldiers build with rolling mists and that seemed fine, so maybe it scales a bit too well with power and ferocity.

It’s a combination of high ferocity and a trait that causes your next attack after an avoided attack, to deal 50% additional damage. The trait is only adept too, might be worth looking at.

But regardless, currently, hammer is a bit too strong.

Oh yeah that trait is invisible to me due the condi clear trait being in that tier.

I don’t think we should ever balance the game around WvW roaming, it’s a sandbox environment that’s fundamentally uncompetitive, unlike spvp which is only competitive due to structure for rules and gear.

Also, your condition build would turn out much better if you took retribution over invocation and enhanced bulwark. You get more protection, a reliable source of stability, two conditional -10% damage modifiers, and some AoE weakness application. I tried it in pvp with carrion and it wa very good, but not OP.

It’s helpless against boon removal and it only has swiftness to disengage. Basically it felt like a 2013 spirit ranger with better support and much more active gameplay, but less Rez utility.

Yeah I only really tried hammer on a soldiers build with rolling mists and that seemed fine, so maybe it scales a bit too well with power and ferocity.

According to my knowledge, Mallyx/corruption condition copying uses your own condition damage, while neceromancer/generosity condition transfers use the applicants condition damage.

Nier.8741:

nearlight.3064:

Darknicrofia.2604:

Exedore.6320:

ANet already announced changes to DH which didn’t make it into this BWE:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Dragonhunter-Changes-for-Next-BWE/5419316

Still won’t make it that great, but at least better than not being used at all.

none of those tweaks changes the fact that the longbow feels like combat in slow motion or the dichotomy of cast time virtues when for 3 years the Guardian’s entire core mechanic traits was mostly designed with instant activation virtues.

that and the long as kitten self rooting bow attacks on a class that has the least mobility in the game. (a 600 range 40 sec cooldown leaping virtue that can get interrupted and doesn’t bypass immob ain’kitten

I’d say necromancer has overall worse mobility, and revenant has about equal mobility.

In general yeah, I didn’t really like what I saw of dragonhunter. It sounds like it should be able to give a long range option to the medi guard playstyle, but its just not really implemented well.

I’d rank it along with tempest as the worst elite spec, but tempest is only really bad because its traits offer almost nothing of value. Berserker is somewhere in between good and bad, whereas the rest of the elite specs are really good.

He thinks Revenant has the same mobility as a Necro, FAIL. This is why games should never be balanced around casuals like you.

To clarify, I meant to say that reveneant is roughly equivalent to a guardian in terms of in combat mobility making them both the second least mobile professions, just over neceromancer, since neceromancer really only has flesh wurm as a situational disengage tool and dark path as a slow, easy to whif gap closer.

Phase traversal is pretty much judges intervention with no cooldown, meaning it’s only high mobility is you have a distant target. I expect them to rebalance it though, since using it to rotate around the map feels a bit exploity and unintended. Once that happens revenant will truly have roughly equal mobility to a guardian, but it will still be ahead of neceromancer.

What? This is a post complaining about herald being strong, but almost all of the things you complain about are shiro stance skills. Nearly everything you complain about is about the evades. And hammer is a well balanced weapon with slow hardhitting skills. Things like drop the hammer are quite easy to dodge and the hammer leaves you mostly helpless in melee range.

How is phase traversal any different from judge’s intervention? The mobility is much much weaker compared to a thief that has steal, shadowstep, and infiltrator’s arrow, its not even comparable.

And I’m not sure why you’re complaining about the shield breakbar when soft Ckittenerally blows it up and stuns the revenant with 25 stacks of vuln. Thats so much counterplay its not even worth using.

Elegie.3620:

nearlight.3064:

What? Infuse light only lasts for 4 seconds.

It’s also the revenant’s only form of active defense aside from evades that cost too much energy in Shiro, without this heal, the class has no chance to survive focus fire in a teamfight.

Infuse Light lasts 4 seconds, has no cast time, has a passive regeneration for a cost of one energy. Defiant Stance lasts 3 seconds, has a 1/4s cast time. As a Stance, it can be traited with Last Stand (GM trait in Defense, competing with Cleansing Ire) to last 4 seconds as well, and provide 6s of vigor on use.

One could argue that one is better than the other, but there’s actually no definite answer to that. Comparing skills between classes is a useless exercise. A class balance is made of all its skills and mechanics, one cannot compare their individual components.

I’ve played the revenant all the week-end, and plan to switch from my warrior main to revenant when HoT comes out. Since the last patch, the warrior has become merely viable in PvP, and the elite specialization is not useful at all. It does not address the current issues of the warrior, and it degrades the skill rotations, by introducing the need to preserve adrenaline.

When playing as a revenant, I had no problem sustaining, though. I don’t know what build you played; I went Glint/Shiro with Marauder, and could manage several 1v2 already. Shiro/Mallyx was okay, Glint/Mallyx was strong, and I didn’t really play Ventari or Jalis (not my style). Don’t hesitate to discuss your sustain options on the Revenant forum, people look quite helpful there.

In my view, the Revenant is pretty much balanced, except for a couple of skills which should be toned down. The warrior forum isn’t the place to discuss them, though. I think you’ve misunderstood the OP’s post as a request to nerf the Revenant, rather than for what it is (a request to buff the Warrior, and a relevant one at that).

woah woah calm down!

I was merely stating that nerfing infuse light would be bad for the revenant class. I played a carrion glint/mallyx build and the survivablity was almost spot on (pretty amazing for having zero toughness), I just folded if I was repeatedly focus fired through my dodge stability stacks, but in general I could sustain on a point quite well. Thankfully the sustain isn’t as broken as D/D ele levels, and neither is the mobility, so I feel that its mostly well balanced besides some relaitvely minor things like energy costs, it just needs infuse light to deal with major focus fire in a balanced way.

So yeah don’t worry, I’m total on your side, just not the OP’s side.

I tried out the berserker for a few games, and I honestly failed at it. I don’t have much warrior experience so my builds probably sucked, but I couldn’t find anything really fun to use, but I only really tried to make condi builds work. The taunt trait was worse than I expected

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

When to shiro?

I normally only shiro when I need to escape, never really think to use it offensively. I always feel like the moment I swap from Herald it’s because all of my cooldowns are used up and I’m trying to get the dagger heals or escape.

How are you using Shiro?

In general thats how I used my second legend at all. I only ever swapped if I had blown all my energy on glint, or I was getting pressured in a way that my second legend could help with (ie, being condi bombed, so switch to mallyx, or needing evades so switching to shiro). In general though I think its because the glint skills, both passive and active are too good when you’re not being pressured.

Darknicrofia.2604:

Exedore.6320:

ANet already announced changes to DH which didn’t make it into this BWE:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Dragonhunter-Changes-for-Next-BWE/5419316

Still won’t make it that great, but at least better than not being used at all.

none of those tweaks changes the fact that the longbow feels like combat in slow motion or the dichotomy of cast time virtues when for 3 years the Guardian’s entire core mechanic traits was mostly designed with instant activation virtues.

that and the long as kitten self rooting bow attacks on a class that has the least mobility in the game. (a 600 range 40 sec cooldown leaping virtue that can get interrupted and doesn’t bypass immob ain’kitten

I’d say necromancer has overall worse mobility, and revenant has about equal mobility.

In general yeah, I didn’t really like what I saw of dragonhunter. It sounds like it should be able to give a long range option to the medi guard playstyle, but its just not really implemented well.

I’d rank it along with tempest as the worst elite spec, but tempest is only really bad because its traits offer almost nothing of value. Berserker is somewhere in between good and bad, whereas the rest of the elite specs are really good.

NeoSoul.4198:

nearlight.3064:

NeoSoul.4198:

I got back about 3 weeks ago from almost 3 years break myself :P (only played core beta and a 1-2 weeks after release). Overall, it seems like most people agree that Ele is the strongest (it doesn’t many many weaknesses) with D/D. Ranger would be the weakest.

Then thief seems mandatory in the tournament games I’ve seen. Mesmer and Necro seem good, perhaps Engineer (Necro with a spec to throw conditions back at people since this meta seems heavy on conditions). Bunker guardian. I still see a warrior here and there but it might not be in the best spot.

The expansion might shuffle it around though. So far, from testing with the beta, if the game was to release in the current state, I would expect D/D ele to still be the strongest spec along with the new Mesmer (Chronomancer) and the Revenant. Ranger and Engineer elite specs aren’t out yet though so I can’t tell for these 2 classes. You might want to check out the beta stuff to make your mind since the expansion is around the corner.

Its interesting that you said that revenant would be one of the strongest. Why do you say that?

I’m not 100% sure about the Revenant because it’s too new and I obviously didn’t fully understand it by just playing it a few hours during the beta weekend. I said this because looking at the skills and abilities, it seems to be able to deal with almost any type of build. For example, one of the builds seems like it might be a good counter to D/D ele with conditions. I played a burst spec that had good mobility, ranged jumps and attacks that won’t miss so it’s definitely a reliable class for gap closing (that was with Assassin). I played with the Dwarf stance as 2nd one which gave me a lot of survivability that I could switch into mid fight. Overall, the main reason why I’m saying this is that it seems to have a lot of tools in its kit, be a reliable melee character, has a high skill cap, can use 2 ults back to back, it has group buffs and so on. It’d be hard for me to believe that it couldn’t find a spot in the top classes with everything it currently has and how good it can adapt in a fight with 2 legendary stances and 2 weapon sets along with group buffs.

As for the Mesmer… well it just basically almost felt like the current one but nearly 2x stronger.

There are two builds that I think could potentially be meta for revenant.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXin3geNSuQvJRboJlsP0jS4I6SJ4EtrklTlRNjQKJNgEewe93vH-TJhHwADOFAl3fAwTA4YZAA

This one I’ve used for most of the weekend (or a very similar variant) and its very strong. I say this a lot, but it fulfills a role similar to the old spirit ranger (condis and AoE protection) but it is so much better in anyway. It has reliable access to stability and mallyx lets it 1v1 condition classes very well. Its only truly weak to boon removal, and it has few stunbreaks, but lots of stability, dodges, and protection help a lot. It’s also suceptible to being kited, but close quarters and axe 4 help with that. Everything else its pretty strong at.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAsXin3guNSuQ7JRboZlsP0rS4IaVJ4EdskFNFidMnpNtBYBNwugJMiA-TJRIwAk2f4YZAAnCAwPBAA

This build I wasn’t able to test, but on paper it sounds like the revenant’s best burst build in pvp. It works so well due to rolling mists allowing you to use an amulet with more survivability. Condition removal is a concern, but lyssa runes, cleansing channel, and generosity sigils help a lot. If cleansing channel removed two conditions, it should work a lot better.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Knighthonor.4061:

I want a Axe main hand with nice AoE power build and defense.

^ This, I was really surprised to find out we have no access to mainhand axe. Would be the perfect solution for a good aoe power build (or possibly a ranged power one if they choose to go that route instead)

Well the hammer fulfills the role of both a ranged and AoE based power weapon, so I think a mainhand axe doing a similar thug would be pretty unnessary when we already have two Melee power weapons that have cleaving attacks.

I agree about unyielding anguish, but I believe it should have a reduced energy cost to compensate, or pulse more torment (only 1 stack) if they stay inside with stability.

I like carrion with these legends so you can take retribution, which gives you a lot more protection and stability and -damage modifiers.

Kumion.7580:

I would really like to see the Rev get a trait for enhanced energy regen. Thieves have seven traits in three different trait lines to improve or supplement initiative regen, so why is the Rev not given any options in this vein at all?

That would be really nice in invocation or herald even.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

nearlight.3064:

NeoSoul.4198:

I got back about 3 weeks ago from almost 3 years break myself :P (only played core beta and a 1-2 weeks after release). Overall, it seems like most people agree that Ele is the strongest (it doesn’t many many weaknesses) with D/D. Ranger would be the weakest.

Then thief seems mandatory in the tournament games I’ve seen. Mesmer and Necro seem good, perhaps Engineer (Necro with a spec to throw conditions back at people since this meta seems heavy on conditions). Bunker guardian. I still see a warrior here and there but it might not be in the best spot.

The expansion might shuffle it around though. So far, from testing with the beta, if the game was to release in the current state, I would expect D/D ele to still be the strongest spec along with the new Mesmer (Chronomancer) and the Revenant. Ranger and Engineer elite specs aren’t out yet though so I can’t tell for these 2 classes. You might want to check out the beta stuff to make your mind since the expansion is around the corner.

Its interesting that you said that revenant would be one of the strongest. Why do you say that?

Have you played with/against one in PvP yet?

They’re really insane. Just a huge amount of damage and durability. They’re like D/D eles on crack. Though I expect they’ll get nerfed before HoT goes live, I think they’ll be top tier still.

I played a carrion Mallyx glint herald most of the beta weekend and it felt to be pretty strong since it’s the first condi build since the old spirit ranger that has actual support. Even for carrion, the sustain was pretty good unless I got outright focused by multiple burst specs. The retribution traits and high protection uptime are responsible for that. I also liked how much of the condition damage is Cleaving or AoE.

I haven’t spent much time with the power builds, but I could see a burst build being viable. I tried out a soldiers spread with staff that was decent too. I also think Valkyrie could work with rolling mists.

Herald was the pull I needed to start playing revenant and I really like it. Is it perfect? No.

But it has a lot of potential.

Basically I wanted to play revenant as a tanky condi bruiser class (or even as cele but that works pretty bad), but I was reluctant to do so because support with ventari honestly sucksdue to micromangement and Jalis skills don’t support and cost too much.

Then the herald was released, so I finally have a class that can support for days by pumping out powerful boons while having lots of tankiness and condition damage. No other condition build in GW2 comes close to having as much team support as my build, and thats what got me hooked.

What? Infuse light only lasts for 4 seconds.

It’s also the revenant’s only form of active defense aside from evades that cost too much energy in Shiro, without this heal, the class has no chance to survive focus fire in a teamfight.

NeoSoul.4198:

I got back about 3 weeks ago from almost 3 years break myself :P (only played core beta and a 1-2 weeks after release). Overall, it seems like most people agree that Ele is the strongest (it doesn’t many many weaknesses) with D/D. Ranger would be the weakest.

Then thief seems mandatory in the tournament games I’ve seen. Mesmer and Necro seem good, perhaps Engineer (Necro with a spec to throw conditions back at people since this meta seems heavy on conditions). Bunker guardian. I still see a warrior here and there but it might not be in the best spot.

The expansion might shuffle it around though. So far, from testing with the beta, if the game was to release in the current state, I would expect D/D ele to still be the strongest spec along with the new Mesmer (Chronomancer) and the Revenant. Ranger and Engineer elite specs aren’t out yet though so I can’t tell for these 2 classes. You might want to check out the beta stuff to make your mind since the expansion is around the corner.

Its interesting that you said that revenant would be one of the strongest. Why do you say that?

I run carrion herald, and I use hammer as the offset to my mace/axe. Since the extra power is there, it actually makes the hammer slightly useful when hiting a running target or interrupting something with the drop the hammer.

Is it ideal? God no. Is it workable? Yes.

As someone who has been playing carrion glint/mallyx for most of this weekend, I think that mallyx is the best legend in 1v1s, but it isn’t overpowered and shouldn’t be given cooldowns. The “one with nature” cooldownis enough because mallyx skills cost so much that you’re forced to use it after using Pain Absorption to stack resistance, otherwise it won’t have enough energy regeneration to really use the other mallyx skills effectively, especially the elite.

Mallyx’s other main weakness is its lack of any stunbreaker or mobility.