Guild Wars 2

This video is actually hilarious and depressing at at the same time…

Doolio.1865:

“The beauty imo is, if kitten unbalanced, which it is at the moment, its not a subscription based game. I take a break, patch comes out, i dont need to resubscribe, i hop in and play away and hopefully things are a lot better, if they arent i rinse and repeat.”

The thing is, you will do that, but majority of players will simply leave and they won’t come back. And those players are important, to you as well, as this is a MMORPG. That’s the whole point.

You mentioned putting eggs in one basket. That’s exactly why people will leave, because they have plenty of eggs and plenty of baskets. GW1 players, Anet supporters or dedicated players, forum users etc. are all a minority. They will wait, they will report bugs, post topics, and they will, if they leave, come back if things get better. But majority of players simply won’t do that. I mean, you can say “how do you know” or “give me some chart on that” and to that I won’t have an answer, but I think it’s pretty common and logical thing to assume.

And this doesn’t have much to do with subscription really, as people will resubscribe if motivated and vice versa, they won’t start a game that has no subscription after a month or so, if they are not motivated. And majority won’t be motivated, because they would simply not care about whether things got better or not, being occupied with new eggs and baskets.

Well it’s actually also quite dependant on how successful MMOs that come out will be and if Anet manages to fix the game up before they are released. Right now people don’t have that many eggs in their baskets I believe…

Of course some people leave the game “forever” but I do not think it’s such a huge part of the community, however it is not a negligible one… Anyway, I do believe that if a company fixes their game up, people do come back and play it. After all, it’s free.

As far as I know LoL (being so popular nowadays) wasn’t all that brilliant and popular in the beginning. But you also need some luck to succeed…

So I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how the puzzle falls together…

Well I won’t say too much yet, because it’s too early for now, let’s see the patch first and talk about it after.

However it seems to me, that Anet STILL keeps putting way more work into PvE rather than sPvP, and from that I just don’t expect too much from this patch. Unfortunately…

I just wonder if they learn fast enough that PvE isn’t going to keep their heads above water…

About eles: I admit I don’t know that much about elementalists, since it’s the class I played by far the least, because those types of classes really don’t attract me. But I’m sure someone could come up with a good idea about it.

About thiefs: I think initiative itself and thief’s ability to spam any attack over and over again is kinda weird, so I don’t think that should be an excuse for not removing the weapon-swap cooldown. Instead they should just look into initiative too.

Sigils that do whatever they do when you weapon swap are the least of problem, just give them an internal cooldown of 9 or 10 seconds just like many other stuff has it right now already.

Ofcourse I’m not saying that the game would work perfectly right away if they removed the weapon swap cooldown, but I think it’s not such a big thing that it would not be possible, and I think it would improve the gameplay and also the skill involved by quite alot. I just can’t see a rational reason why they force us to get stuck in a weapon set for 9 seconds just because we used 1 skill. It doesn’t even go along with the philosophy around which they built the way weapons and skills are used in this game. And as mentioned before. Skills have their own cool down, so there really shouldn’t be too many imba stuff possible.

Anyway, thanks for the inputs, keep coming up with ideas that could either confirm my thesis or refute it. I’d like to see as many thoughts on it as possible. A Dev input on it would also be nice

P.S.:I’d also like to give another example of why I hate getting stuck in a weapon set:

Necromancer, staff. Jesus Christ I just want to lay down a mark or two, to let myself escape or whatever, but after that sitting on staff is REALLY annoying. Additionally most builds we use are usually traited for one weapon set only…

Ok.

Lately I’ve been noticing a lot how weapon swap cool downs affect the flow of the game, and have often found myself wondering what really is the point of weapon swapping cool downs.

I think the cool down on weapon swaps really destroys the flow of the game too much, and most importantly, it destroys the fun and interesting ways you could play your character.
The way weapon skill usage is designed in this game, I suppose, the important thing should be using the right skill at the right time, so why hinder players with such a mechanic in the first place. Skills have their own internal cool down anyway… So why an additional one on swaps?

The combat in this game is fast, you want to use the tools that are at your disposal at a twitch, fast, and swap back to whatever you find appropriate after, not be hindered by the weapon swap cool downs additionally…

I guess some of this comes from me being a long time Quake player, where I got used to being able to swap between weapons really fast based on the situation. But I think that’s the whole point, and it would do good for GW2 too.

And anyway, you can play Engineer that way, and that’s why I find that class the most fun. You can play like: “Oh ok I need a knocback real fast now” – Swap to flamethrower, “Now some immobilize would be nice” – Swap to bombs, drop some more bombs etc…, swap back to shield+pistol, do whatever. It makes playing that class really dynamic and fun, just trying to find the right way on the fly, not being stuck on 1 weapon set for 9 seconds, after you’ve switched for that one single skill that you really needed…

Thoughts? And keep the topic civil please.

I can think of reasons for a legitimate leave. For example yesterday in Forest of Nifhel me and my team killed the enemies at the Fort. When I saw the Fort was safe I left it and started runing towards our “home point” – mine. Mine was under enemies control, but noone was there, so it was perfectly safe. While I was running there I saw 3 enemies running towards Fort, but as soon as our team got hold of it, 3 of my team mates started running for Mine as well.

So at that point I just saw my team mates aren’t playing for the win but rather for their own points in that particular match, I told them to GTFO, because they waste my time and left the game.

Seems fair enough for me. If you join the free tournaments, play for the team, not for yourself. Now I’m not saying that was the case in your team, but still…

xiv.7136:

Rift PVP is boring and simplistic
WoW PVP is broken, ugly and unbalanced
SWTOR PVP is just a joke
TSW Tera let’s not even go there

Yes, GW2 does have the best MMO PVP, with by far the best balance and meta.

However this is not a major improvement, other MMOs have awful PVP.

It’s time to compete with other game types and get to proper esports success. GW2 can do it, it just needs to focus on balance and adding spectator mode etc.

Yes. GW2 could actually be e-sport material, if only Anet was wiser and devoted half as much time to spvp as they did for pve, or even WvW. The funny (or sad thing) is that by working the way they do, they turned their backs on their most devoted fans, that came from GW1, because they were expecting yet another, improved pvp masterpiece.

GW1 pvp was pretty close to masterpiece, and it was LIGHTYEARS ahead of any other game on the market at that time. Anet is capable of doing it, but I don’t know why they turned their backs on it during GW2 developement.

The only thing GW2 doest better in pvp than GW1 is movement, skill usage mechanics… combat mechanics in general, it’s much more fluid. But that’s all.

Anyway I’m sticking with this game… for now. But everyday I play spvp there’s this bitter taste, knowing how much more this spvp could be, if only Anet decided to devote more of their effort and thought into it…

It has been suggested many times, that it should be seperated. That’s how ArenaNet fealt also in GW1, but seems like they changed their minds in GW2 and now they think that random pug teams vs premade is ok.

Too bad, I think they were correct the first time.

I agree, a melee skill that holds your character in place while doing it is nonsense, even if it’s suposed to be balanced out by huge damage, like HB. But really, skills like Staggering blow?!

On the other hand Heartseeker offers crazy mobility… And no, I don’t want to make this another thief vs warrior topic, I’m just giving an example…

I can accept Killshot rooting you, but all the other skills mentioned up there should not root you, it’s especially annoying on Staggering blow (hammer #4)

A lot of people left spvp because they were disappointed by how lacking it was, so I guess we’ll just have to see what happens down the road. But yeah, of course current size of spvp community is nowhere near large enough to be an e-sport. I hope Anet at least learn from their mistakes here… If you want your spvp to grow into an e-sport, you can’t release a game, that hardly has any spvp content at all. Spvp was the thing they worked the least on, before the game was released, yet their vision for it was set for the highest – esport. It’s kind of hard to understand…

Both very well written posts, I back them up totally. I have also bought GW2 mainly for sPvP, since I’m an old GW1 player and have always held huge respect for what Anet did with pvp for MMORPGs there. So on that basis my sPvP expectations were high for GW2, especially since they were talking about making it an e-sport and whatnot.

So when the game finally came out I was shocked to see how much time they put in PvE content and how so so little into spvp content. Literally it must have been like 1000:1. All they did when it comes to spvp is add the 4 maps. Everything else was done through making the pve content (utility skills, weapon skills, traits, the balance…). A huge disapointment.

I often feel like the existing spvp content in the game, that we have so far was made from something like:

A: “Oh hey guys, we really have to give them some sPvP too, you know… Remember? We promised….”
B: “Oh hell OK, make a few conquest maps, that should get them busy for a while I guess…”

So yeah… The sPvP content we have so far is next to 0, and I really hope Anet starts working on it as fast as they can. I hope that for their sake and also because I really want to continue playing the game, which I simply can’t see myself doing for much longer if the content stays this way…

Really nice man, really nice. Thanks for sharing the data.

Yasha.5963:

It seems to me that the people complaining about 8v8 are old GW1 players. I still haven’t seen any rational argument to say why 8v8 is supposedly so bad.

Do you think the problem might be more your attachment to the GW1 system? The games seem more fun to me when there are lots of players in them.

In fact I would like to see pick-up games with even more players; if dev time was to be spent, working on a 12vs12 or larger map with a new mode (like flag capture or whatever) would be really cool, rather than obsessing over whether 5v5 or 4v4 or 6v6 or 8v8 is better.

Well if you haven’t seen any rational argument that says why 8v8 is so bad, it might not be a problem of arguments not being rational, it might be you, who’s not thinking rational about what structured pvp is all about. There is nothing rational in having 14 people bunch up at the center point of Legacy Of Foefire and unloading everything they have on their arsenal and hope for the best. None of the involved people in there really knows what’s going on. Even a cat that walks over your keyboard could come out victorious in that battle. Before the release Anet has been saying alot like: “Yo man, 5v5 is tha s**t, no mo 8v8, 8v8 bad, no way”

And now that the game is released they make people play 8v8 on maps they designed for 5v5. And don’t give me that crap that someone said up above the maps “were not designed for 5v5 blah blah”. Yes, these maps were designed exactly for 5v5 my friend. When they made these maps they MADE THEM for 5v5, because 5v5 format in pvp is all they’ve been talking about. And if those maps weren’t made for 5v5, the tournaments played on those maps would not be played 5v5.

Seriously, if you can’t see a good argument in this topic, that rationally says 8v8 is bad, you haven’t read through the topic at all, or you’re just oblivious to everything while reading, I can’t think of any other explanation…

Yeah new players don’t get to learn much about pvp in 8v8 arena. Tho one can always argue that you can join servers that aren’t that full. That’s exactly what I’m doing. However all servers either become full before the map ends or get empty when the next one begins…

The thing is also that a lot, a lot of new players did not like GW2 pvp at all, because their first contact with pvp in this game was 8v8 zergfest on conquest maps that were made for 5v5.

To me making these maps 8v8 is like trying to play football on a hockey field! It can’t work, and every football player will say: “this is crap, I’m not doing it!”

I agree, 8v8 servers should definitely be made 5v5. Let’s get rid of that mindless mess! :S I also think that the join game system should work more like RA worked in GW1. Player enters the game at the beginning of the map into a full team. And matches should be made a bit shorter, so there’s less chance for people leaving mid-game. If people hot join a game, they don’t want to waste too much time in a loosing team, they just want a quick in, quick out. 300 points should probably win the game…

Stiv.1820:

The counter to stealth is just root & dmg. Any thief at 50% health should be eating a root or Moa or whatever. Once all breaks are down a root is death. Sure they can stealth but they can’t move or dodge and still take damage like normal.

Well now you’re saying we have to use an elite to counter something that thiefs can just cycle pretty much all the time… that’s BS.

Stealth is (and has always been) a completely broken mechanic, that has no place in serious competitive pvp.

Yet for some reason Anet managed to make it even more broken than it is in other MMOs.

It should just be completely removed from the game and replaced with something that actually comes from common sense.

The thing is GW1 had it all covered through RA and TA system. In RA you entered the arena alone, if your team was really good it got to 10 wins and at that point your whole team would be transfered into TA and you would play against premade teams there. Fair enough, that was great!

Here you can enter alone into that horrible 8v8 zerg conquest whatever, team counts for nothing there anyway. If you enter free tournament alone you get matched up against a full premade team right of the bat, get stomped, hope for more luck next time. No system in place at all, I feel it’s all just one huge chaos with not a single thought put into it… Why do they go around changing stuff that wasn’t broken, and on top of it they change it for the worse?!?!

Aragiel.6132:

Quick and fast solution

Just make hot-join 5v5. To be honest i never seen a positive feedback on 8v8 format. So why to stick with it?

So once again.

Make hot-join 5v5: Now solo players and incomplete groups could use it.
Free tournaments only for full premade: Its like small tournament.. where you learn and get tickets. Only full premades can enter.
Paid tournaments for tickets = making it harder to entry and more challenging for top teams.

so basically 2 steps are needed. Change hot-join to 5v5 and allow free tournaments to join only full premade groups

problem solved.

Yes, I think that’s quite a good idea. Because currently i’ve even stopped joining Free Tournaments, because it’s just no fun entering with random people against a full premade team that’s runing whatever metabuild that just stomps your team…

Also what i would do is make random matches shorter. Say 250 or 300 points wins the game. That way there’s less chance of people leaving in the middle of the match. If people join random they just want a quick in quick out match, and not waste too much time on a loosing team, waiting for the other team to finally reach 500 points, so they just leave before it’s even over, making the thing even worse for everybody still staying in the game…

I think random arena matchup system from GW1 was perfect for GW2, so IDK why they got rid of it…

Colton.9460:

WvW is for ppl who like to zerg

SPvp is for ppl who like to zerg

TPvp- Is what the game is balanced around, what the maps were made for, and is the only place the zerg cant truely grab hold.

It is not a bone we want( feels weird saying that since I only do tpvp with my guild lol, so maybe more they) it is to play the game as it was meant to be played. If they changed the 8v8 system to 5v5 then stuff like this would vanish.

It is that they made game modes for “casuals” but made the game balance on something else. Out of over 300 servers only 50 at most are full at a time, they should switch it to 5v5 for all and let ppl actually play conquest not some zergy mess

Couldn’t have put it any better myself. I could never understand why Anet decided to make random servers 8v8, it’s just so … stupid. I’m sorry, but it is.

I can almost imagine Anet staff saying something like: “Naah we can’t make random people play 5v5, there will be too many upset people because they can’t play an organised format with random people. Let’s make it 8v8, I guess Zerg is better!!!”

Jesus man! Make people play 5v5 and they will play 5v5, they will learn. GW1 had random arena, there if you wanted to get to 10+ wins you usually really needed atleast a monk AND a decent DPS character. That’s quite demanding, but hey, guess what, I’d trade GW1 RA for this 8v8 conquest anytime. I got to Gladiator 7 title and had loads, LOADS of fun in random arenas… Nothing beats the feeling of reaching 30 wins with random players, making new friends along the way, that really respected eachother’s work. Because with 30 wins you knew everyone was doing a good job at what they were doing in that team… Anyway RA from GW1 >> random Conquest in GW2. Sad to say so…

I also bought GW2 mainly for spvp and sad to say I’m very disapointed. Still the only MMO with better pvp is GW1, and I’ve played many.

Anyway as it is currently GW2 pvp is shallow and unbalanced. I still remember how fun it was when I started playing playing GW1, just standing in RA/HA or in Guild Hall (yeah GW1 acutally had Guild Halls) and coming up with new builds in that sea of skills that you had. Right now each class in GW2 has about as many utility skills as you had only elite skills in GW1, on top of it most of the utility skills are completely useless.

GW1 acutally came up with a new “holy trinity” in pvp, which was DPS, heal and somekind of CC class. I think they should’ve sticked with it, because it was darn fun. Anyway, I could go on for hours about what I feel is wrong with GW2 spvp… I just think the whole system is fundamentally broken and I’m in serious doubt they can even fix it (atleast not anytime soon).

But if they do, I’ll be there, playing…