Like we said before. We can go and reject every new record for the last few months. But the record scene would be even more dead than it is now. People clearly dont want as many rules as they think they do. Its only when certain rules effect them do they actually care.
Besides that was an issue in itself simply because the record posters thought it was fine and within the rules.
Exactly my point.
PS. It was necessary to debate that one because of molten facility.
People do agree on the underlying issues. The solutions do vary a fair bit. But as long as the devs fully understand the issues and have a range of solutions to take ideas from then they can come up with their own. Its the issues that need to be acknowledged. The suggested solutions are less important but they do help the designers.
People recognise that the core things necros are lacking are group support, mobility, active defence and damage. But the actual specifics of what those entail and how they should be approached differs from person to person. There certainly is agreement on general directions though.
For example everyone recognises mobility as an issue. Some say we should just get some actual mobility to fix this. Others think we should be compensated by other means to justify the lack of mobility.
Group support is a bit more of a broad subject because not everyone agrees on the type necro needs (typically any decent amount of one type would be probably be sufficient as long as it is not outclassed by other classes). But thats because its a broad role. Support can be group active defence, group buffing, the ability to interact with others group buffing (finishers), debuffing, control and unique utility.
As long as we push to be more explicit in the wording and application of the rules, the worse it gets for competitors and spectators alike.
Implying that it was ever clear to spectators and competitors. Lol. The only 100% clear rulesets weve ever had is unrestricted and the old stuff before we had the rulesets created.
The more rules and exceptions you add the more complicated it gets. But we cant avoid that because people are pretty dead set on some of them.
why are we even voting on so much stuff back in the past no one cared and ppl enjoyed watchign records, also isn’t this open to everyone anyways ?
This is exactly the reason i dont understand why we have restricted banning more than just gemstore stuff, consumables and major map break outs. But people want to customise the ruleset to fit perfectly with their ideals. So we have to go through this farce.
Its pretty evident from the general distaste from some people with how things are going that the custom ruleset doesnt really work as well as people imagined. Weth is just doing his best to clarify things to suit the desires of the community. But thats a difficult task when everything is voted on by personal opinions and involves countless exceptions.
Every record brings a new questionable tactic up to the front. To just gloss over them without clarifying is rather foolish in the long term (only because the community wants an inconsistent “whats fun” ruleset). Which is why this is happening so much right now. :P
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What the necromancer is missing
- Projectile reflects, blocks
- Mobility
- Forms of team support
The OP seems very sPvP/WvW oriented.
snip
Funny because the biggest thing that holds necro back in PvE is lack of team support such as group projectile defence and other active defence on a more individual level. This has implications on necros self reliance defensively against dangerous bosses. Which results in a need for being carried. PvE has a heavy amount of projectiles. Not having blocks and extra active defence really limits you even in a group environment.
Group buffing isnt necros theme. Neither is mobility. We have plenty of debuffs. We just need debuffs to matter. Vuln is good. But improving encounters, to make control and other debuffs desirable, would be the ideal solution. As far as group buffing is concerned, if we just had reliable blast finishers we would be fine in that department without breaking the theme.
We need much more threat to compensate for the lack of mobility. One of the best ways to fix that is to just add more damage modifier traits. Unholy fervor should be a flat 10% damage on vuln foes regardless of weapon. Can also make vampiric aura give the current effect + 5% bonus damage to allies to make it much more desirable and still remain necro themed.
One of the biggest issues the necro has is the lack of finishers. This is primarily a PvE problem, But it also it effects other gametypes quite severely as well. We need our finishers to be less clunky and more reliable so we can help blast useful fields in groups. And we need them to work outside of combat. Self comboing is something many classes do in abundance yet we lack the possibilty to do this. A blast on axe 3 and/or warhorn 4 would go a long way to improve things. We could also do with lots of projectile finishers on things that make sense. Such as 100% projectile on staff auto and life blast. Projectile on deathly swarm, reaper’s touch and spectral grasp.
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An ICD isnt even needed if its chill on blind. The only possible imbalance was ridiculous chill durations when using plague and WoD. But that was fixed with the 5 cap limit.
Chilling darkness is not my main problem deathly chill/bitter chill became useless in pve and probaly pvp. Apparantly you can’t apply chill if the stack is full meaning you can’t apply your chill on the fully stacked champions.
It should still proc the vuln on bitter chill whenever you apply regardless of the chill stack cap.
It only procs when you chill someone, and if the chill does not happen due to the cap it does not proc.
I tested this on a invulnerable golem with bitter chill traited and the chill sigil on dagger 1. You get three stacks of vuln per chill, I never got past 15 vuln from this alone.
The sigil has 10 second ICD. Thats not the most accurate method of testing. Also bitter chill has 8 second vuln. So it will fall off if you arent fast enough with chill combos. Not sure exactly what sources you used to test. But if you were slow you can miss out on vuln.
Best way to test would be for someone else to max cap the chill and then you test bitter chill on it. If it applies vuln then bitter chill always works. As it should.
Ill test this tomorrow if i remember.
Tested this. Was really easy with an icebow. Cast frost fan once in melee and you hit with 7 chilling projectiles. It caps on the 5th projectile but you get 21 vuln from a single cast. I got 24 vuln instantly because i had sigil of ice equipped as well.
So yes bitter chill still works regardless of chill cap.
Yeah downed state soloing. The most effective necro solo.
They said it works like terror. So your initial assumption has no basis.
Also dunno why you named the thread bitter chill. Bitter chill is an entirely different trait which you havent mentioned.
Chilling darkness is not my main problem deathly chill/bitter chill became useless in pve and probaly pvp. Apparantly you can’t apply chill if the stack is full meaning you can’t apply your chill on the fully stacked champions.
It should still proc the vuln on bitter chill whenever you apply regardless of the chill stack cap.
It only procs when you chill someone, and if the chill does not happen due to the cap it does not proc.
I tested this on a invulnerable golem with bitter chill traited and the chill sigil on dagger 1. You get three stacks of vuln per chill, I never got past 15 vuln from this alone.
The sigil has 10 second ICD. Thats not the most accurate method of testing. Also bitter chill has 8 second vuln. So it will fall off if you arent fast enough with chill combos. Not sure exactly what sources you used to test. But if you were slow you can miss out on vuln.
Best way to test would be for someone else to max cap the chill and then you test bitter chill on it. If it applies vuln then bitter chill always works. As it should.
Ill test this tomorrow if i remember.
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All the more reason not to fail. ;>
Chilling darkness is not my main problem deathly chill/bitter chill became useless in pve and probaly pvp. Apparantly you can’t apply chill if the stack is full meaning you can’t apply your chill on the fully stacked champions.
It should still proc the vuln on bitter chill whenever you apply regardless of the chill stack cap.
They took like no time at all if you did them on every release. It was new content. It seemed like a waste not to do it.
You make it sound as if getting 10k is difficult. The games been out for 3 years. If you did all the LS stuff thats about 7k on its own.
inb4 “hurr durr i didnt do LS because its lame”.
I was gonna say its because its the same skill as mark of blood. Then i realised mark of blood has a 4 second cool down.
It only nerfed vuln stacking through chilling darkness. The stack cap has no effect on bitter chill.
I had to literally tell this guy for 5 minutes to sit on the oil leak in path 1. And the other time this guy just aggroes all the mobs all the time. Then when i tell them “Please dont aggro the mobs” they just keep doing it. Why don’t people just listen to people who have done the dungeon before? Is that too much to ask?
Do you even know if he was able to speak English? There are people from all over the world playing and maybe he didn’t understand. Also, you’ll find players that are older perhaps, and are used to VOIP don’t tend to pay any attention to chat period.
Final instance, they had you blocked and you didn’t notice!AP are a great filter.
When you look at a group and see them in the description you know right away if your the kinda of person who wants to be in a group with them or not. If you don’t mind AP points used as an experience guide join. If you do don’t.
Under 2k AP = generally terrible or an alt.
EDIT:
Under 7k AP = generally terrible or an alt.
Over 10k = usually some terrible PHIW.
Pretty much everyone in rT has over 10k AP. Except for the inactives, friends and alt accounts. :P
The stacking chill duration cap is enough to balance any chill issues. The chilling darkness nerf is totally unnecessary. The trait is now worthless. Previously it was only good with plague and WoD. Even then it was difficult to justify a trait which only effected too long cool down abilities.
I got home today and couldnt stop laughing when i saw the chilling darkness nerf.
That trait was only good on WoD and Plague. And in the future it could have been decent on reaper GS. Now its totally useless. Seriously. What? Someone explain to me why this nerf happened. Lol.
Yeah reaper just needs the damage numbers to be good. Necro in general needs active defence though.
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No need to get snarky. :P
If its set to 100% it would remove 100% life force. Its most likely set to a value of 35k armour ignoring damage or something. DS does not equate to health equally. I believe life force is worth twice the amount of health. which is why you can survive with it.
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Dagger auto > Grave digger spam because it takes to long to cast. Dagger auto is 2.1s
From the video, the bit where he did 3 grave diggers in a row took around 5.4s. Still 1.8s a cast.Sheer coeff per unit time dagger still wins out, in 2.1s daggers done 2.8 where gs spam has an average of ~2.3 over 2.1s. Its only worth to flash shroud for exe scyth off cooldown. Literally GS and shroud only win out damage wise when you have more than 2 targets at the current coeffs we have been shown.
Yeah but thats assuming they actually cast it as fast as possible on stream. If its 1.8 seconds that means it has an after cast of 0.55 seconds. Which is absurdly high and hard to believe that its true.
Also id really hope they wont make that big of a kitten up with damage balance when they explicitly stated GS should be slow but hit much harder to compensate.
Assuming Reaper you are going to have 100% crit in a group even outside RS because of decimate defences. From a quick look at the coefficients. Either we will be dagger auto attacking (maybe gs dagger rotation) or camping RS above 50% (depends on RS auto attack speed). Once we get to 50% it will be gravedigger spam (assuming the after cast isnt ridiculous). Once we get to 25% you will definitely want to swap into RS to cast executioners scythe and then go back to grave digger spam.
But you can clearly see, with how unsure i am, that the damage isnt nearly enough. Considering cast times and after casts could potentially result in us dagger camping even with Reaper. Which would be a total design failure on anets part. Lets hope it doesnt come to that.
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Did you guys ignore the part of the stream where they said the numbers are not final?
That doesnt mean we cant give feedback about numbers.
Main issue was self buffing. Thats not so much an issue anymore. The other one is a major lack of active defence. Having no reflects or projectile blocks is a pain in the kitten for some dungeons. And lupi is basically anti necro since the bugged auto-attack.
For solos skipping isnt an issue. Most people use consumables anyway.
and the only attack Maw has is the beam (dealing % damage, set to 100%).
I dont believe this is true. You can tank the hit with a necro in DS. And it doesnt even do 100% life force.
Nope, neither of those exist.
And no you cant test for maw because you can only damage him through crystals and life steal. Which are not effected by potions. Maybe crystals are. I always assumed they were percentage health though. You would need a third party tool to read the health difference to check. And theres no wind rider potions available to check the tentacles.
We need active defence. Its as simple as that. We are the only class that does not have enough to survive new lupi without help. This is not acceptable.
According to the ingame data. Jade Maw is classified as an elemental and the tentacles are classified as wind riders.
The painful yet honest truth. :>
Sounds like you should be playing a revised unrestricted ruleset like i said. :P
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If you want to do these sort of things you should be playing on unrestricted. Or ask for a new ruleset which is basically unrestricted but bans all the consumables and out of map crap. Because its not me who is turning restricted more and more into unrestricted. Its you guys. And you dont even realise it.
When you are in support of banning lupi one shot but allowing this. I honestly cant take you seriously. They can both be considered creative use of game mechanics. But both are cheesy and unintended.
And dont get me wrong. I want things like this to be part of records. I just really dislike this hypocritical bullkitten and inconsistency going on right now. It makes literally no sense. Choose what you want and stick to it. Dont bend it for every other encounter.
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Your opinion is exactly why i cant take half the people in this community seriously. You are so two faced its unreal. You say its unrestricted if you can disable a boss. Then you go and say because a boss only has melee attacks it doesnt matter that it doesnt trigger so its fine. What!? Are you serious?
If you want to do it legit, let it trigger then perma immob and range. I know its the same result on a melee only boss. But thats not really the point is it. And this specific encounter isnt really a melee only encounter.
Other games if they have any rules on speedruns at all they are usually very simple and unambiguous. Here we have the most convoluted ruleset ive ever seen. And people constantly bend and interpret the rules differently to suit their own personal agendas.
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Just realised i calculated with an incorrect weapon strength for exotic greatsword. Weapon strength should be 1047.5. Corrected values are as follows.
Greatsword
Dusk Strike – 0.822
Fading Twilight – 0.822
Chilling Scythe – 0.967Gravedigger – 1.935
Death Spiral – 0.871
Nightfall – 0.698
Reaper’s Grasp – 0.967
Reaper’s Shroud
Life Rend – 0.580
Life Slash – 0.580
Life Reap – 1.161Death’s Charge – 0.967
Soul Spiral – 2.660
Executioner’s Scythe – 1.451, 1.935, 2.418
Other Stuff
Shouts – 0.330
Elite Shout – 1.316
Chilling Nova – 0.131
Which means all the coefficients are actually a bit lower than initially calculated.
Anet dont think of these things. Thats why they are possible. That doesnt mean they arent exploity/unintended.
Its almost like how we blinked and portal past the golem trigger in CoE to prevent the turrets from activating. That was promptly fixed because it was a bit more publicly used and once it was done if you failed to activate the turrets before death the dungeon would be uncompletable. But its the same principle.
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On WP’s video about the 6 remaining elite specs. He showed a data mined model of a belt of daggers. Looked like a thief kit.
Pretty much everything for necro is on that list. So thats a good sign.
Yeah the thing is you can drop your 4s pulse blind then pick up the hammer. Theres no excuse to not do it if your group is struggling with sharing the hammer.
Im looking forward to teef kits. :>
I calculated the coefficients from the stream. You could work out the power by adjusting your ingame power to match the BiP tooltip damage shown on stream. Estimate of power was 1950. It was heart of the mists so i assumed exotic greatsword which means a weapon power of 1000.
Greatsword
Dusk Strike – 0.861
Fading Twilight – 0.861
Chilling Scythe – 1.013Gravedigger – 2.027
Death Spiral – 0.912
Nightfall – 0.731
Reaper’s Grasp – 1.013
Reaper’s Shroud
Life Rend – 0.608
Life Slash – 0.608
Life Reap – 1.216Death’s Charge – 1.013
Soul Spiral – 2.787
Executioner’s Scythe – 1.520, 2.027, 2.533
Other Stuff
Shouts – 0.345
Elite Shout – 1.379
Chilling Nova – 0.137
The auto-attacks are actually on the low side for slow two handed weapons. And Reaper/Necro still has much less damage modifier traits than all the other classes. So as it stands the damage is not going to be over the top. Gravedigger spam is the only potentially overpowered thing. But considering its cast, after cast and relatively low coefficient even that isnt going to be completely out of line.
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Fair enough. Wasnt aware of flame turret and mortar having pulsing blinds.
Muchos infinitos.
These sort of things are exploity. But thats what records should be about. Then again this community cant agree on that. So dont be surprised when people vote to disallow this.
What infinite blinds does engi have?
It should pierce baseline. The trait could add splash AoE to the target when hit.
Of course its not. Its the same guild and its got a number of the same mentors.
Necros arent really any better post patch. Life steal and reworked blood magic creates an illusion of usefulness that people havent caught on to yet. Its a bit of group sustain and inconsequential damage. But its hardly useful.
That said people that exclude classes without reason are usually idiots anyway.
Problem with two people carrying it is you dont have has many chances to regen health if you are low. Thats the main issue with others not pulling their weight.
Because its longer, has an annoying time gate, bugs easily and the final boss is a pug killer.