S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
They probably figured players would take parasitic contagion for sustain in condition builds, and it argue-ably has the potential to heal you for a lot. Anet seems pretty scared of making condition necros stronger at the moment, while us minion masters are gonna have a field day.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
The burning for elementalists is very different, because we get a lot more access to other damage conditions in great quantities. (we get a ton of bleeding, poison, and torment all at the same time) So when you add in burning procs on top of that, it gets pretty strong for us.
Meanwhile, most elementalists can’t even run a real conditions build. They could possibly run something like
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgABdASYBWQ~
and try to maximize their burning and bleeding procs while utilizing knights armor, but it’s still an awkward build. Meanwhile we can use Rabid gear and get tons of condition procs and damage from the curse line alone.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
what about the 50% increased duration trait that is now gone, too? is this now baseline or removed? otherwise SW would suck hard
50% increased duration is baseline yes.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
In the update this is what the healing skills will look like (or shoud look like)
Consume Condition
Type: CorruptionSummon Blood Fiend
Type: Minion
Taste of DeathSignet of Vampirism
Type: SignetWell of Blood
Type: Well(this skill is actually release with HoT and is still in development)
your soul is mine
Type: Shout
edit fixed typo
I’m gonna say what builds each would be good for after the patch
Consume Condition
Type: Corruption
This skill is still going to be strong in corruption builds, even using the trait that gives you additional conditions on it’s use. That 33% reduction in cooldown is nothing to sneeze at. A proper corruption build shouldn’t be concerned with that anyway.
Other than that, it’s gonna be hard to use this as a go-to heal unless you have some form of passive condition removal. However Most necro builds get pretty easy access to that one way or another, leaving it as a strong option in other builds (such as ones using necromantic corruption, plague sending, shrouded removal, ect).
Summon Blood Fiend
Type: Minion
Taste of Death
A good option for minion masters, especially with the additional vamprism from vampiric presence. Otherwise it’s not as strong of a go to heal as things like well of blood. It does argue-ably have some of the highest passive healing though.
Signet of Vampirism
Type: Signet
A sort of “catch-22” healing skill. It covers the option that siphoning doesn’t already, when you’re getting hit. A strong option in an offensive siphoning build that isn’t using wells. This is looking better against other options after the patch, and can become a solid “go-to” heal on builds that utilize melee a lot. It will be especially strong since the passive will work in death shroud. I expect to see a lot more use of this heal skill in spectral builds after the patch.
Well of Blood
Type: Well
Good in well builds and vampiric well builds, the strongest “burst heal” we’ve got. A good option for well builds, but the long cooldown makes it less desire-able as general placement heal.
(this skill is actually release with HoT and is still in development)
your soul is mine
Type: Shout
This is probably gonna be the least used heal skill. I guess it has a small place in death shroud builds or in pure reaper shout builds, but it just looks like a weaker option than other heals.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Now that the warhorn trait is in blood magic line, I’d say a wells siphoning build using dagger+warhorn is totally viable.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQEpAGoA6w~
Something like this, basically you can go balls to the wall on the enemy with siphons, and your death shroud would automatically save you if you would take a finishing blow and start healing you in addition to your siphoning healing you in death shroud.
alternatively, when reaper hits,
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQEdAGoBtQ~
You can also get a lot of healing from the vampiric stacking on your wells and greatsword attack’s additional vamp hits. Then every attack in death shroud will heal you in addition to the siphoning healing you.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
My build is only getting tremendously buffed, so I’m not going anywhere. I can’t wait for reaper to hit either.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Necromancer is getting a lot of nerfs and the consume conditions recharge increase and vulnerability is the biggest. Yet, all I’m reading is stuff like, “Well, I guess I understand the change” or “It makes sense if…”.
No, just no. The necromancer is getting gutted with these changes. Necromancer will die easier than ever before.
The nerfs are bad enough but our trait lines are becoming utter garbage in the process. A minor trait that gives you and minions protection when exiting death shroud? “But Zefrost, even if you don’t have minions you still get protection!” I don’t care, this is horrible design/synergy. How does this even synergize with traits in the same tier like armored shroud or soul comprehension?
Answer: it doesn’t.
Then we have the blood magic changes. What on earth kind of balance is this? No one in the existence of ever has ever suggested these types of changes. Life transfer now teleports downed allies to your location and heals them?
WHY?!
That is a very strange (kittened) change. How about a trait that makes life transfer draw conditions from your allies to yourself? Yep – that seems necromancery (and we can already do it underwater) This is also something that has been suggested before by myself and others.
Anyone trying to defend the necromancer now is in a serious denial problem. I am ashamed to even have a necromancer now, let alone that the majority of my time was spent (wasted) on it. The necromancer is forever garbage tier.
Axe skill #2 now converts a boon into a condition – that’s a good change. Good job.
The entire thought process of every balance change that is happening is horrible balance and I feel like Johnathan Sharp was the glue that held this type of “balance” from happening. I would rather have no balance than this. You don’t just make everything baseline, combine traits together whilst buffing traits and then give players new and better traits to choose from.
You have butchered the game. Please bring back Johnathan Sharp.
PS. I will make it my mission in yolo que to use the trait that stops allies from bleeding out whilst /sitting beside my ally while the opponent holds a point.
Cool trait. I will use it.
the consume conditions nerf was made because they made it a corruption. If they didn’t nerf it and still gave it the new categorization, it would have become over powered quickly.
protection when you leave death shroud is a lot more valuable than when you enter death shroud. I’d argue it synergizes with armored shroud because it covers the options that armored shroud doesn’t.
We got that, it’s called unholy martyr.
the teleport trait does seem like it leaves a lot of room for people to kitten with allies.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Spirit weapons themselves will be a bit weaker, but a build using spirit weapons will be a LOT stronger.
While spirit weapons are losing 50% damage boost, only 2 of the spirit weapons actually attacked frequently enough to gain a benefit from it.
On the flip side, you gain access to 4 more trait slots you otherwise would have had taken up by spirit weapons, which will give you a lot more than the 50% spirit weapon damage ever did.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
It’s a good trait for a couple of reasons:
-It gives Axe auto attack more purpose, as the constant and quick vulnerability stacking is easy to achieve.
-Gives a form of condition damage mitigation to both condition damage builds and non-condition damage builds.
-Most of all, it gives non-minion masters a reason to use the tree.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
MM is gonna be ridiculous after this patch, let alone when we get reaper
death magic gives access to tons of survivability between armored shroud, beyond the veil, flesh of the master, necromantic corruption, and corruptor’s fervor.
blood magic is gonna give access to a lot of health recovery (even without healing power investment) through vampiric, last rites, vampiric presence (will this work on minions if no players are around? If so, does the health they siphon through this trait go to you or the minions?), unholy martyr or transfusion (both are great choices)
Spite, for now, will give you tons of ways to keep the enemy locked down and boonless through the focus and axe cooldown reductions and spiteful spirit. Also
REAPER’S MIGHT IS A MINOR WHAT?
Beyond this, the change to the two elites makes sense since they now benefit from the traits affecting their respective categorizations now. lich form was already really strong, let alone with the duration increase and cooldown reduction.
Consume conditions will probably be very strong with the corruption skills affecting it, we will see though.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
Yeh and pigs might fly :P. There is no point waiting for a few reasons:
1, Necro is conceptually limited – they wont give it healing, vigor, evades on weapon skills, ports, invulns. All of this is how you actually survive in pvp
2, Nobody at anet plays necromancer so they fundamentally dont understand its needs and they dont understand how to create traits to create viable builds. Sure they could stumble across it by luck but I doubt it.
3, Necro is judged from the view of fighting AGAINST IT. Hence why they remove or nerf stuff with no “counter play”. Other classes are judged by “that is cool to play with”. As in with the opposite perspective.
1. We’re getting more access to ways to heal (at least certain builds are) through blood magic. Excluding the fact that we haven’t seen how it’s actually being changed, if we ONLY got the traits as they are now in blood magic, transfusion is much easier to take in a number of builds (particularly in minion master builds as it no longer competes with vampiric minions.) Not only that, but transfusion is supposedly gonna heal downed allies too, which is huge.
We have ports in 2 skills (wurm and dark path) but I understand why they won’t give those to us. Thematically pulls make more sense on a necro, and we’re getting another one with the great sword.
Invulnerability skills are in my opinion, poorly designed skills and I’d rather we never get those. Anet wants us to use death shroud to fill those evades and invulnerability moments, and if they want to make that work, they need to make gaining life force easier for more builds.
2 and 3 are speculation, and really don’t have any basis.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Well, the trait specifically says “when wielding a scepter, your condition damage +150 and outgoing condition duration is increased by 100%” if this is true, it applies to ALL conditions you apply while wielding a scepter, not just the scepter itself. This would include:
-conditions applied in death shroud (dhuumfire, tainted shackles, vulnerability, ect)
-dagger/warhorn/focus conditions
-utility conditions (corruption skills will get HUGE GAINS from this)
-sigil conditions, rune conditions, ect
It has the potential to be incredibly powerful. However, most other classes and builds are gonna be a lot stronger after this change, so it’s hard to say if it really would be over powered or not. How often do you see a necro running corruptions right now anyway? After all, it’s only 33% more duration than you would have pre-patch.
Let’s say you wanted to run a max condition damage build, for example:
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQFrAJkAag~
In this build you get lots of vulnerability and other conditions, however if you want any access to a stun break or stability you either need to give up a corruption (lowering damage) or give up dhuumfire (also lowering damage). In order to get a grandmaster that synergizes well with it, you need to give up something very important to defense too.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
The only trait that the new lingering curse conflicts with is the barbed precision’s 20% bleed duration increase. Otherwise, you should just run different runes and sigils. Since you’re gonna stack crit chance in a condition’s build anyway, get a bunch of on crit effects like might.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
The minions have their own tables for proccing things on hit and causing effects. That’s why their siphons are different and they don’t proc confusion for you (otherwise a mesmer could kill you by putting 9 stacks of confusion on you and using evasion in your minions). Likewise their CCs aren’t you doing the CCing, but them.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
It’s true that spirit weapons lose that 50%, but the guardian himself gain a lot through other traits that they otherwise wouldn’t have access too by taking all the spirit weapon traits.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgIBlAL0A-w~
sword+torch and scepter+focus
Here’s what I was looking at for a spirit weapons build. The only real issue with spirit weapons, is that there isn’t a good weapon to get a symbol from that works well with spirit weapons unless you use double melee.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
I forgot to add that, after the HoT patch, condition minion master builds will be more of a thing due to the reaper specialization. For example:
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQC5APUBqg~
utilities: blood fiend, bone minions, Rise!, shadow fiend, lich form
weapons: scepter+dagger, staff
With this combination, you get chill from your shadow fiend and dagger, which sets up all your death nova’s. You’ll have plenty of AOE and your minions surviving isn’t important at all. Honestly, I think this build will be a lot better for PvE than any current minion master build.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Considering Axe mastery is getting the shaft, If you want Axe to be your primary weapon, I don’t think so. Unless they buff the Axe mastery trait between now and release.
However it does combo well with a focus.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Minions work in most dungeons just fine outside of speed running groups. The only dungeons that they don’t work in off the top of my head are:
Crucible of Eternity (all paths, too many AOEs)
The Ghost eater boss in path 2 of Ascalonian catacombs (they get in the way of leading the boss to the traps)
Citadel of Flames path 2 boss (minion pathing issues and timing on killing alcolytes issues)
Outside of these you can use minions just fine.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Axe has been getting negative feedback on how weak it was since day 1, I don’t know why they continue to nerf it.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Chill is pretty potent since it slows skill recharge and has the greatest reduction to enemy movespeed.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
considering most condition builds run power/precision/condition damage anyway (or celestial if you’re feeling cheesy), I think feast of corruption is fine. The only thing I can see it gaining that would make it better without making it too strong would be that life force per condition increase.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
In order:
1.Necro- always target the necro first. They have no access to any forms of invulnerability or vigor, so you can just blast them down.
2.Power ranger- that 2 skill damage is insane
3. zerker ele, thief, or mesmer- worst case scenario is they go invis and run away, but they can’t handle pressure at all
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Yeah I think it’s pretty unusual for it to take this long for them to fix the animation.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Certain builds (death nova MM for example) would probably use scepter+dagger or staff instead. If they were a vampiric necro I’d think they’d still use dagger+warhorn.
In fact, I’d say whatever “main weapon” for builds that pick up the reaper trait line won’t change.
If the necro’s “primary spec” is reaper though, I’d say Axe+focus makes the most sense.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
snipped for text limit
Wurm is strong in a 1 v 1 scenario without question, however it has a rather long cooldown for rotating points when compared to any more mobile class. It’s strength in re-positioning would be great if the skill was reliable in gauging distance when positioning it. As it stands though, only certain scenarios give you a semi-reliable way to escape using it (IE, the upper ledge of mid point for that map with svarnir on it), and the lengthy cast time prevents you from using it on the fly to cover distance unless you place it far ahead of time.
The jagged horrors each apply a stack of bleeding every time they hit. Their initial damage isn’t that high, but bleeding (that you won’t otherwise apply) is actually quite helpful, especially as a cover condition or as supplementary DPS. The condition removal is also potentially 5 conditions at once, which is nothing to scoff at.
Unless they fix the bone minion AI, that burst damage is incredibly unreliable in the absolute best scenario. Jagged horrors in my experience at least try to attack the enemy. Unless they make bone minions more responsive, then that burst damage number might as well have a disclaimer saying “works 10% of the time”. I’ve had instances where I would run up past an enemy to try and lead bugged bone minions in range only for them to run the opposite direction or entirely around the enemy.
I’m not talking about DN builds, we’re discussing the necromantic corruption types at the moment.
Being out numbered is always bad regardless of your build, when I talk about fights with multiple people, I’m mostly talking about when it’s a 2 v 2, 3 v 3, ect. In these situations the necromancer is always the target first, and these are also the CC chains I’m talking about. It’s in this situation where doom (single target) and tainted shackles don’t come up to snuff. 1 v 1 is, like you said, not a big deal. This is why I say that the reaper’s shroud in fear is so strong, as it helps most in exactly that type of situation, while still being strong in a 1 v 1 scenario.
Shadow fiend’s active is highly underrated in my opinion, as it is the only minion that can reliably blink up ledges to give chase to an enemy that would otherwise be poking you outside of “leash range”, keeping them tangled up for a time (the wurm can be LOS very easily in this same position). His blink is also a delayed instant cast, which let’s you use it to cover stomps. Not to mention that his active is also extremely reliable to at least do what you expect it to, unlike the flesh golem getting stuck on a pebble or the bone minions admiring flowers.
Mandatory is a very strong word. I would consider Death magic, possibly Blood magic, to be “mandatory” to a necromantic corruption build. This is why I think reaper is a clear winner in this situation as it provides everything you need covered by the last trait line in one easy package. Spite only provides additional cripple or chill, and Soul reaping only provides a CC break+stability (both provide additional DPS options outside of that). Neither of these things are BAD for the build, both trait lines are good for it, but I still find reaper’s ability to provide both at once without even using traits to accomplish it a strong argument in it’s favor.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
I would honestly just try and create distance until his elite wears out. Otherwise try to strip stability when you can.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Well for minion master builds, it gives you access to two things that are very important:
-Rise! (condi removal for new necromantic corruption, mass jagged horrors for death nova, ect)
-A persistent stability that also AOE fearsThe stability is most of all what’s important to minion master builds. Minion masters have no answer to CC pinballing. The flesh wurm is only a stun break and the vast majority of classes can simply leap to you as soon as you do it with whatever gap closer+stun they have. With the “shrouded in fear” ability, not only is it a REALLY STRONG way of preventing CC pinballing, but it also lets you force enemies off you if they all pile onto you. Both of these are things the current form of minion master sorely lacks without compromising his build.
On top of that, the relentless pursuit trait helps deal with immobilize spam, which is something else that greatly hinders the minion master.
In all honesty, I do believe reaper is strictly better for a minion master build. The rest, I guess, could be argued preference.
Rise!, unless heavily changed, will not be used in normal MM builds. It is a skill that gives very little effect compared to other MM skills unless you can hit 4-5 targets. Yet, MM is a build that desperately wants to avoid dealing with 4-5 targets, your entire build and playstyle tries to push you away from the very thing that will make the skill work.
CC pinballing isn’t an issue as MM. You are only fighting 1v1/1v2, and it is extremely rare you find someone who is able to CC you that much, and either way MM is now able to go FitG so that still isn’t a thing to force Reaper. Immobilize shouldn’t be a big deal either with the almost excessive condi removal Necromantic Corruption gives.
Pretty much all combinations of Spite, BM, SR, and Reaper will work, the only real requirement is that you have DM, outside of that they all offer something unique for the MM.
Judging by your opening statement, I’m gonna assume we’re talking about MM builds that use necromantic corruption as a “base”.
The reason I find Rise! to be looking so good, is that your other options as a minion master for that same slot (assuming all minion utilities) are bone minions and flesh wurm. Bone minions tend to be better for group fights when it comes to their burst damage, so (as far as the necromantic corruption build goes) Rise! competes directly for the same slot as a team fight utility. Bone minions also lose potency for this build as you lose death nova. I also find bone minions to be the most unreliable skill in the game, even jagged horrors seem to be more responsive. This leads me to believe that Rise! will help in those situations more. This is doubly true since they draw conditions, and in fights with more than 2 on each side, that condition removal can be incredibly helpful since you’ll usually be the target of them. Let’s not forget that Rise! will probably also proc on mesmer illusions or any other summon.
The flesh wurm is definitely more reliable and powerful in a one on one fight, however the minion master is already strong in a one on one fight, and the wurm doesn’t seem necessary for those situations.
CC pinballing is rather prevalent in any situation involving a guardian or 2+ opponents. I will agree that FitG helps with the same issue, however the rest of the traits don’t help the minion master keep an opponent locked down, which is very important for the build to function. This is why I believe reaper wins out in this situation.
To say that you ONLY fight 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 is silly to me, as the movement for maintaining that type of play typically calls for lots of swiftness and blinks for persistent rotation of points. Even then, your power houses for 1 v 1 fights are the shadow fiend, bone fiend, and flesh golem. The last utility slot doesn’t require a 1 on 1 minion, letting you cover your weaknesses with the last remaining utility slot.
immobilize (along with chill and cripple) aren’t gonna be a big issue to the necro himself with necromantic corruption, but they will slow down his minions tremendously. allowing them to get into range to hit the enemy player is rather important to a necromantic corruption build, so the reaper helps mitigate the only weakness necromantic corruption can give you.
Yes, other trait lines can give you similar option coverage (SR for stun break+stability, spite for more chill+cripple) However reaper accomplishes both at the same time while also helping buff you in the one area you are weakest in.
TL;DR: Reaper allows a minion master to cover more of his weaknesses in one trait line than the other options available.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
-Minion masters (all types)
-power builds (all types)
-well builds
-blood magic buildsNone of these are strictly true.
Well for minion master builds, it gives you access to two things that are very important:
-Rise! (condi removal for new necromantic corruption, mass jagged horrors for death nova, ect)
-A persistent stability that also AOE fears
The stability is most of all what’s important to minion master builds. Minion masters have no answer to CC pinballing. The flesh wurm is only a stun break and the vast majority of classes can simply leap to you as soon as you do it with whatever gap closer+stun they have. With the “shrouded in fear” ability, not only is it a REALLY STRONG way of preventing CC pinballing, but it also lets you force enemies off you if they all pile onto you. Both of these are things the current form of minion master sorely lacks without compromising his build.
On top of that, the relentless pursuit trait helps deal with immobilize spam, which is something else that greatly hinders the minion master.
In all honesty, I do believe reaper is strictly better for a minion master build. The rest, I guess, could be argued preference.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
reaper is better for:
-Minion masters (all types)
-power builds (all types)
-well builds
-blood magic builds
However I wouldn’t say it’s better for any conditions build. Terror builds might not want it in PvP either since it makes fear chill the enemy instead of pushing them out of the control point.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Oh. In that case, you probably shouldn’t be going condi at all, so Banshee’s Wail is the best choice. Warhorn is good there. Consider that traited Locust Swarm has an effective power coefficient of 3.0 (though crits factor in differently than one big hit) and is AoE. For reference, Backstab is only a 2.4
But i want to go Condi… so banshees wail is out of question…
you’re going to be building crit anyway on a conditions build, why not take reaper’s precision? Life force is always a good thing to have more of, regardless of how little the gain is. It’s better than nothing.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
I keep evolving the Condi-Minion Reaper that I think my son will play.
After listening to the But of Corpse podcast, I am less excited about the shouts. But I’m still hopeful that minion AI gets better in HoT. So here’s an all-minion version.
That’s actually somewhat similar to what I was theory crafting for a death nova MM build.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQD1ALkBqg~
weapons: scepter+dagger and staff
utilities: blood fiend, Rise!, bone minions, shadow fiend, lich form
It’s basically a build that maintains a lot of chill, poison, and blinds. With the scepter trait increasing condition duration by 100%, and the shadow fiend’s teleport applying blind+chill, and crits applying more bleeds+chill, jagged horrors applying more bleeds+poison, and bone minions applying poison, well, you can see where it goes from there. You basically lock down a player with blinds, chill, and poison while your minions deal the heavy damage either by hitting the enemy or dieing.
The only downside to this build, is that your death shroud is gonna end up becoming more of a “get off me” skill more than anything, but since it has a stability+fear skill, it will do that job very well.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQDeAS4Btw~
weapons: Axe+focus and greatsword on swap
runes of the lich
soldier’s gear
utilities: blood fiend, Rise!, shadow fiend, bone fiend, flesh golem
This is what I consider the “traditional minion master” build. It brings lots of self sustain, moderate single target damage, plenty of movement impairment, and light amounts of party support. It functions quite differently than the current minion master build(s) though despite using the same train lines for the most part.
Since death nova now competes with trait that increases minion damage by 25%, bone minions won’t be as potent. So you replace them with Rise! for additional condition removal from necromantic corruption in larger fights. In 1 on 1 fights you won’t get much use out of the bone minions without death nova, and the wurm isn’t really necessary now that you get stability through reaper shroud, so your loss in 1 on 1 power for having a utility to be saved for bigger fights is negligible.
The combination between unholy martyr and necromantic corruption means that you won’t be dealing with conditions all that much. Damage conditions have little impact on minions due to their high health, so the only conditions you need to worry about them getting are mobility reduction conditions.
This is curbed by the relentless pursuit trait. Since it reduces conditions placed on you as soon as they are put onto you, that means by extension the ones minions pull will be shorter.
For sustain you have the usual minion siphoning from blood, however you can now take transfusion since minions being vampiric is now an adept trait. This gives you more ally support and also gives you a way to heal minions. Beyond the veil also helps with this, as it gives you a way to give your minions protection if the enemy tries to AOE them, and protection on yourself if you’re forced out of death shroud.
Soul eater is personal preference for sustain on my end, as I typically used the dagger for gaining life force off of downed foes, and I also used the warhorn for multiple hits proccing vampirism. This trait accomplishes both of those functions for me, allowing me to comfortably drop dagger+warhorn.
The new reaper shroud not only helps with the above, but also gives:
-more sustain due to a consistent reliable way to gain life force while in death shroud
-A stun which is incredibly important when preventing stomps or revives
-plenty of cleave damage
The great sword is also gonna help a lot, particularly:
-plenty of access to chill, which will help your minions catch the enemy and apply their cripple, which helps you apply more chill, ect
-grave digger is a great tool for finishing downed players, particularly the ones who die faster by attacking them anyway like mesmers or thiefs.
-A pull for bringing enemies to your minions
-AOE blind (this is huge for dealing with hambow juggernaught warriors)
This build, as opposed to the current 2/0/3/2/0 Minion master, solves a number of the current issues with minion master in PvP:
-lack of condition removal
-lack of strong cleave (for stopping revives)
-lack of stability (CC wrecks MMs)
there is only one trade off:
-less range
dark path is wonderful in that it has a deceptively huge range. Once a player gets out of the reaper MMs range, they’re safe as the “dark path” skill on the reaper has a juch shorter range.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Honestly, i am afraid we may all be taking some new armor stat that increases condition duration.
This is something that bothers me a lot, actually. Condition duration is pretty core to a lot of necro builds, so without us gaining that stat from trait lines, will condition duration runes be made stronger to compensate?
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
So let’s stop pretending like this validates the ridiculous notion that ANet hates Necros.
They made the attack time longer, gave the axe an animation that doesn’t match the hit effect at all, the animation was rushed out in an unfinished state and still hasn’t been fixed to show the focus after almost a week. IDK, not showing a lot of love there.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
The other problem with Vampiric Aura being tied to finishers on Dark Fields, is that such a change would only make Blood Magic’s unique support Well specific. I would much rather have a traited persistent ability or triggered on life steal or something.
To be fair though, Anet has been setting wells up as blood magic utilities since launch. It wasn’t until (sunset cove i think?) that we got a vampiric signet which threw it for a loop.
vampiric blast finishers are way better than the current blind blast finishers that’s for sure.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
I’m wanting to get back into the game, and noticing that they haven’t done much to fix the minions. My biggest question is; Do they scale with anything yet?
Not. . .exactly.
Jagged horrors apply a tick of bleed when they attack, and with death nova they create a poison field when they die. Both of these scale with condition stats.
Most minions apply a non-damage condition with an ability of theirs (immobilize, cripple, blind) all of which scale with condition duration.
Jagged horrors are the corner stone of the death nova build, which will become a real build once Heart of Thorns hits with the inclusion of the “Rise!” shout which will make jaged horror creation much easier.
Otherwise, Minions don’t scale with anything but condition duration. Anet said some time way-back-when that minions used to scale with stats during their internal tests, but found that it lead to people taking minions without minion traits too often because they got more bang for their buck. This is why current day minions don’t scale.
condition damage, boon and condition duration.
They also scale with level. But that’s it.
So, going for condition damage, boon, or condition duration, they will hit harder? Or their actives will?
Jagged horrors hit harder since they bleed on hit. The new Necromantic Corruption will make Minions draw conditions from you every 10 seconds, then transfers them and seemingly any conditions on them back to an enemy on attack every 10 seconds as well. So in heavy condition application environments minions with Necromantic Corruption may become heavy condi proliferators on enemies.
Transfers retain remaining duration and the condition power of their applier so the minions stats won’t really matter much in that sense.
The reaper trait “relentless pursuit” will actually probably influence the cripple, immobilize, and chill transferred to minions, Which is actually pretty awesome because those are the only ones that will honestly hinder the little kittens.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
They always need to give a disclaimer when showing footage of works in progress, even if they don’t end up changing anything.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Minions are in a good spot for Tanky builds, and lacking in value for offensive minion masters. No additional changes would be made. This would help benefit a lacking area without affecting where they are already fine. They would not have to Nerf them.
I don’t believe you really use Blood fiend if you don’t see the issues with it. He has low HPs and is unreliable in any situation where he can be out-ranged, LOSed, CCed, Blinded or the enemy stealths. This allows him to have some benefit to level out his inconsistencies. Beyond that, with my suggestion, his damage wouldn’t really change, his healing would just be a bit more reliable in all parts of the game.
The cleaves are debatable, but the point is to make them more valuable in dungeons and team fights where currently MMs lack very much. They have decent use solo or 1v1 but have had scaling against multiple targets.
Oh, Anet would definitely nerf them.
Minions aren’t signets though. All minions have a basic functionality of “do a thing when they hit, or when you activate an ability”. Healing passively only makes sense as a signet. If the enemy uses their blinds, CCs, or actually goes out of their way to kite your blood fiend, you should be killing them with ease. If you lose at that point, there are MUCH bigger problems for you than what your heal skill is.
Minions not having a place in dungeons isn’t a problem with the minions, it’s a problem with the zerker stack and faceroll meta. That needs to be changed, we shouldn’t balance the rest of the builds around it.
Late EDIT: I also wanted to add, that if you make any stat scale for minions, it immediately becomes core as soon as you do because as of now, a Minion master doesn’t have any damage stats that scale for it.
Lets say for example, precision was changed for it. The only difference we’d see here is that Minion masters now run precision/vitality/toughness (If such a combo even exists) instead of soldiers, which leaves us at square one.
Also, running 2 damage stats on a minion master is suicide in PvP. People already focus you anyway, so why would increased damage help you? The only difference here would be that you would have a huge glowing sign over your head saying “kill me to make my minions go away”.
Every build has it’s own stats that are best for it, and it’s own stats that are useless to it. Condition damage is useless to a direct damage spectral build, that doesn’t mean we should force synergy with condition damage into there. The same applies to minions here. There’s no reason to fix what isn’t broken.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
I disagree with changing the minions to scale with precision and ferocity. As soon as minions are able to scale with something else, they’re gonna get nerfed in another area so they don’t become too strong base.
I also disagree with the change to the blood fiend. It’s one of the most reliable minions with attacking, and doesn’t make any sense flavor or mechanics wise to heal you without attacking.
cleave on the bone minions and shadow fiend are completely unnecessary. Bone minions have terribly low attack damage, and are there as explosion fodder. The shadow fiend, while decent with attacking, doesn’t really need cleave. If anything, make the AOE on his blind active bigger.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
I see your point. It just feels like “Rise!” should be something we get with a minion elite spec. And not just slapped onto a shout.
I think the only reason they put it on “Rise!” was because they wanted to make death nova builds a thing in HoT. Aura of the lich was also the iconic minion master elite from GW1 for this type of thing, and lich form doesn’t accurately replicate that feeling. Rise gives more of that effect (and also isn’t on a 180 second cooldown).
I’m also under the impression that shouts aren’t really meant to be used as a full bar. They rely too much on enemy numbers, and feel more supplementary than base, thus making them good for mixing and matching. IE:
-“your soul is mine!” is good for spectral builds as it generates life force and is stronger with more enemies, where a spectral necro probably won’t need to pop his heal in 1 v 1.
-“Rise!” is pretty obvious for MM builds
-“you’re all weaklings!” works with any build really, but moresoe for damage builds with a big burst skill
-“suffer!” works with well builds and vampiric builds in general
ect
I don’t think we’re gonna get any specializations that are focused on an existing skill tree. It’s pretty clear they’re all gonna be designed to bring something new to the table on their own while still working with existing specs. The only catch here is that you can’t really support a minion master build without summoning minions in some way due to how their traits are setup.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
All of the current minions are in a good spot mechanics wise. They deal enough damage and have enough supporting effects; projectile finishers (bone fiend), strongest passive heal (blood fiend), life force generation and blind (shadow), damage and cripple (flesh golem), ect.
This is one of those joke posts right? I have a hard time telling those sometimes on the ’net.
No, it’s not. In my time PvPing I haven’t had many an instance where all my minions functioned and I lost a 1 v 1. The vast majority of the time I lose fights, it is because my minions stood around doing nothing reducing my DPS by a huge percentage.
The biggest weaknesses for a minion master build as of right now is the lack of stability, and lack of condition removal. Both of which are addressed by the HoT core class trait changes. This only leaves minion AI as a glaring issue.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
Personally i would prefer they scrap the minion shout and replace it with a defence shout. So projectile reflect shout or something.
No matter what you do to “Rise!” its going to step on the toes of regular minion abilities too much. Even with jagged horrors its a bit much. Mainly for Death Nova fodder. But thats still taking a lot away from other minion skills. Jagged horrors or custom minions are the only options in my mind. But i still feel like it shouldnt exist at all.
With the changes to necromantic corruption and the death magic tree, the death nova build and “strong minion build” are completely seperate. Right now the death nova build is nothing more than current minion master build but without the 25% bonus on minion damage. It requires a new skill that summons a bunch of weak minions to function properly. If you remove the minion summoning aspect of “Rise!” that build is gonna be shot before the expansion even hits.
I too disagree with how everyone in this thread wants the skill to summon minions created through utilities normally (bone, blood, shadow, or even flesh golem) as that does step on other utilities toes. Summoning jagged horrors or other new minions definitely is the way to go.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
The new animation is terrible, it doesn’t look like the necromancer is trying to damage the enemy at all. Not only that, but it feels so much slower. The Axe auto attack was already really bad, now it feels even worse.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
All of the current minions are in a good spot mechanics wise. They deal enough damage and have enough supporting effects; projectile finishers (bone fiend), strongest passive heal (blood fiend), life force generation and blind (shadow), damage and cripple (flesh golem), ect.
Hell, even jagged horrors have a place supplying us with life force and procing death nova.
The only issue with existing minions is how the AI gets hitched up so easily. The minion master builds are going to be a LOT stronger with how the blood+death trees are being changed, and reaper will synergize well with minions. I’ll hold judgment on any more “needed” changes until after HoT releases and we see where the minion master settles.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Axe+focus has more synergy with that build than staff due to the chill+vulnerability. The Staff’s condition transfer mark isn’t useful when you’re constantly losing and transfering conditions anyway, and you don’t have the condition damage to make the blood mark useful.
Use runes of the lich. The toughness and condition duration benefit you more (longer vulnerability, cripple, and chill), and the jagged horror works well with necromantic corruption.
for sigils I’d use Ice and chilling on great sword, peril+frailty on axe+focus
For utility I’d consider “Rise!” over bone minions because in 1 v 1 you shouldn’t need bone minions or flesh wurm, so you can save your shout for bigger fights. This depends on how “Rise!” looks in the final build though. If it keeps it’s 40 second cooldown, then you’d get more minions (that also violently explode) in a shorter time with the 16 second cooldown bone minion spawns.
for traits I’d take transfusion over vampiric precision, the healing would benefit your minions and allies more.
I’d also take chilling force over decimate defenses, as you can maintain chill pretty easily between focus and the great sword.
blighter’s boon isn’t useful to a minion master as none of your traits really give you many boons. Deathly chill or Onslaught are better overall.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Meet: The Reaper
- That was suppose to be for The Necromancer Profession
——————————————————————————————————————-I Am Very Disappointed!!
Why? Is this what a reaper is? With a Great sword? and with chill Element?
Is not Chill Element belong to Elementalist Profession? What connection/relationship does communicating with the dead and raising the dead spirits have with an element?
Absolutely~ Nothing!!So all of sudden: a necromancer profession become a element focus?
Chill (specifically, cold damage) has always been a part of the necro since guild wars 1. That’s where they get the idea from. A lot of the skills necromancers that dealt damage directly to enemies used cold damage.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
Jagged horrors are totally fine, if it creates minions it needs to be disposable minions, and jagged horrors fit the bill. However on a 40 second cooldown (26 seconds if you hit 5 targets) the skill is pretty lack luster. In fights where you’re dealing with 5 players, those horrors will die incredibly quickly, and probably before reaching a target.
If jagged horrors are kept, then I’d like to see them buffed. Either reduce the health degeneration on them, or make them a bit faster. Alternatively, I’d like to see the cooldown on “Rise!” reduced down to 30 seconds base. Jagged horrors are core to the death nova minion spec, and synergize well with it (applying bleed on attacks, easy to blow up for poison fields, ect). If it doesn’t spawn jagged horrors, I don’t see it working well with that build.
Another potential option is letting Rise summon special minions specific to that skill that make more sense with the reaper skill set/style. Like for example, summoning Wraiths/Shades.
Rise!: Summon a Wraith/Shade for each enemy hit. The Wraith/Shade applies chill for 1/2 second (alternatively, they could also apply a stack of vulnerability when they hit).
If chill:
-Wraith/shade only survives 20-30 seconds (based on number of enemies hit with Rise!)
-They hit for a solid amount (more than a jagged horror, less than a standard minion), but have a longer period of time between attacks.
-respectable amount of health so they can potentially survive enough to reach their target.
-Average minion move speed
If vulnerability:
-Wraith/shade doesn’t degen health or despawn after a set time
-Their attacks are rather weak (same or less than jagged horror), but fast (so they can apply plenty of vulnerability)
-Lower amount of health, making them easier to clear out
-Fast moving, so they’ll begin clawing at their enemies before the enemy can clear them out.
The chill Wraiths are slow, sturdy, but spell doom if they reach their target. They’re temporary because of the potential for a necromancer to steam roll players if they get enough of them out at the same time. This follows suit with the “slow moving horror” theme. This also allows the player to “bait out” AOEs.
The vulnerability Wraiths are fast, quick, and weak. However they apply vulnerability which lets the necromancer deal a lot more damage, especially with “decimate defenses”. They aren’t temporary because they’re easier to clear out and don’t hold the enemy player down. In this case the player would want to stop AOEs so the wraiths can do their thing.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
So, what do we think guys?
Talking from the perspective of a minion master
-traits
This trait line is better for minion masters by default than spite for a necromantic corruption build. For a few reasons:
-shroud knight: reaper death shroud is infinitely better than regular death shroud, and gives the minion master a way to deal psuedo-AOE damage that he is severely lacking.
-Cold Shoulder: chilling a foe with a focus is easy enough as is, and typically is the fight opener for a minion master due to the boon removal and chill holding an enemy in place. This makes it even better.
-Relentless pursuit: being crippled, chilled, and immobilized would be the most potent effects for hampering a minion master with the new necromantic corruption. This trait reduces all of those things by a significant amount, yes please!
-Augury of death: this is something to consider, but it really depends on how long the cooldown is on release. It depends on what Rise! does on release, if it still summons jagged horrors, and if the cooldown is still 40 seconds (which is far too long by default).
-soul eater: this gives you more survivability when using the great sword, which is great considering how the dagger+warhorn used to be my go-to “survivability” switch for life siphoning.
-chilling force: life force and might when hitting a chilled foe? combine this with axe+focus and you’ve got some excellent GAINS.
-Decimate defenses: considering how easy it is to get vulnerability stacks with axe+focus, this can give a lot of damage amping even if you have no investment into crit chance.
-Reaper’s onslaught: This is the only grandmaster trait that seems useful to minion masters. The other two will need to wait until we see how the traits and what not fall into place after the patch.
shouts
Rise!: This will be core to death nova minion masters, and can have a solid place for necromantic corruption minion masters. The cooldown looks a bit long, even with the Augary of Death trait and hitting 5 targets. If the minions are changed to something else, or the cooldown at it’s base is made shorter, the skill could be good.
Great Sword
Skills look really cool, and have a lot of punch. Between the minion cripple and the great sword chill, there can be no escape.
new shroud
Stability+AOE fear? Life force on auto attack? AOE stun+chill+huge damage? There is a lot to love.
core
Life stealing while in death shroud is a massive advantage, especially if minion life stealing counts as well. This can increase survivability by a very noticeable degree.
over all
Compared to the spite tree, this offers a lot more. It’s benefits are more consistent, more immediate, and much cooler. It gives the minion master ways to cover weaknesses that previously would stop him in his tracks (CC spam, lack of AOE, hampered by conditions.). The only issue is the lack of a clearly beneficial and synergetic grand master trait, but the rest of the tree is more important. I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
My biggest grievance with the update: this does nothing for condition builds. Condition necros (the original core intention of the class) are effectively dead.
The reaper doesn’t help condition builds, but the conditions build has always been one of the strongest if not the strongest necro build in the game in PvP. The only thing holding conditions back in PvE is the conditions cap, which is being removed. There are also a number of changes to traits in the core set that are looking to give condition builds more options or just straight buffing them (for example, current lingering curse vs new one).
Power necros have always been lack luster, so it’s nice to see them get a leg up.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard
(edited by striker.3704)
From a general standpoint, reaper looks like it will synergize with every build except for a straight corruptions conditions build.
S/I/F engineer Z/R/D guard