Guild Wars 2

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions.

I want to live in the world you live in.
——————————
Again this feels to me like two separate issues. One of price, one DIRECT availability, meaning you go obtain an item, you do not go obtain an intermediary item and exchange it for the item you’re looking for.

To the first issue, I’m not sure that I agree that there’s an issue. I haven’t seen strong argument that leads me to believe that a change wouldn’t leave everyone worse off. Silk is certainly not inelastic.

I’m not ready to discuss the second issue just yet.

so based on that second part the supply of silk is currently at the amount that you (devs) intended?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Is a system truly “flawed” if one person’s opinion says it is?

Honestly, I think it’s more along the lines of “working as intended”, because educated Devs designed it as suck, and constantly monitors it while making adjustments as needed.

did you mean such X_X

However the video’s from the people playing the demo (bog-otter I think?) both said “When you gain a level instead of an SP you get a mastery point”. Is this the case?

i believe so

what isn’t known is how tomes of knowledge will work with it they might give you a skill point still or just a general tyria mastery point

i’d imagine it would be most exotic loot boxes

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

What I was really hoping to see was some traits designed to activate when you switch Legends, similar to how some of the other profession traits work.

this wouldn’t suprise me one bit they like to have effects like that eg weapon swap sigils perm swiftness on kit switching for engineers

mtpelion.4562:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

thanks i must be unlucky most bags i open seem to contain mats used for insignias with rarely silk but it could just be a dry spell

Heavy Moldy Bags have a really large drop table (straddling T5 and T6). If you want silk, target bags that start with “Large” (like Large Moldy Bags, Large Ritual Bags, etc.).

This means hitting Malchor’s Leap or Straits of Devastation for Moldy bags, rather than Cursed Shores where you are getting Heavy Moldy Bags.

thanks again i even looked up where to farm must have been old or something

in high load environments they already do this

vpchelko.4261:

Shiki.7148:

TheDaiBish.9735:

-snip-

And yet again, you did not get it, or you wouldn’t be still riding the “but they need more bandwidth” train. They. do not. need. MORE BANDWIDTH. Like, SERIOUSLY. I wonder why you just won’t get it in your head that 5 mobs on the same map having 20 stacks of bleed each and one mob having 20 stacks applied times 5 if 5 condi-players attack it is the EXACT SAME THING calculationwise?! And, since plkayers get the information on other players transmitted in the former case, they actually need more data transferred->more datause, and that works fine?

Seriously, try to make a programm that makes 5 instances of a “Monster” class and apply the worst-case-scenario of 20 timers for each of those 5 instances, ticking down individually.

Then make ONE instance of a class “Boss” and have the worst-case of 100 timers tick down.

The measure the memory and cpu usage of your programm. It will be exactly the same. See, 5*1*20 = 1*5*20 (monster*player*stacks = monster*player*stacks). They both end with 100 stacks calculated, but one ends with a player receiving the info (costing bandwidth) of all 5 20-stacks, and the other with just his own. Guess what is which. As for Adds, any class that can spam AE-conditions does it on regular mobs, too, so there, again, you end up with an equal amount of processing power and bandwidth needed. Your argument it takes more is completely invalid, because that isn’t how it works. This is why different maps are instanced from each other, and there are multiple servers hostin each map: because there is a maximum amount of players allowed on one at any given time, if there are too many you end in an overflowserver (or second main sever, depending on the amount of players). There won’t be suddenly more players than the maximum number allowed for each server, calculated to bear the load of managing every player using conditions without slowing down or breaking, even when each of those players decides to spread conditions to a different group of 5 monsters, just because a world boss event happens.

FYI. In Rift or WoW – any player able to record all detail information about all players.
You can even inspect gear – instead of GW2 stupidest “ping your gear”!
In GW2 player receive detail information only about own skillz.

FWIW i have never had t hat happen in GW2 that being said i don’t pug often as I found a really cool guild upon my return to the game

i still think world bosses aside it would be far easier for everyone to just coordinate what type of conditions you are using to avoid the problem

mtpelion.4562:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

sorry if this is an obvious thing but what is this faucet you talk (only thing i can think of being possible is salvaging, but that requires a specific type of armor drops or rag salvage mats which can produce things other than silk also

Bags. Every type of bag drops cloth and leather at a very high rate. Almost no bag drops ore or logs.

thanks i must be unlucky most bags i open seem to contain mats used for insignias with rarely silk but it could just be a dry spell

ever thought they want new players to be able to do the dailys also , imagine if all the daily event / bosses were from lvl 80 zones the new player would then be forced to either do that or if they are high enough to have unlocked pvp and WvW they could do that

don’t like the zerg on the event dailies then don’t do that one anet gave us 4 PvE options anyways plus 4 PvP and WvW options as well or just not do the daily that day just get your logon reward and do something else

mtpelion.4562:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

except it is still a central hub for trading on this continent of tyria relatively easily accessible from the different home zones for the different races

No one is trading in Lion’s Arch now, they are simply passing through the Asura Gates which could very easily be moved anywhere else and achieve the same result.

Due to the lack of naval trade, LA lacks a purpose and as a result lacks a logical reason to be rebuilt.

With the war effort consuming so many resources, why would anyone want to expend time and money rebuilding a city that serves no immediate purpose? Better to let it lie in waste and build a new city that has more tactical or economic value.

what other central location is there? Divinities Reach is the closest i can think of, but isn’t a good choice due to seperatists. Holebrag is to isolated same with Black Citadel, Rata Sum, and the Grove the other locations nearby are too contested by either Risen centaurs or other enemies to make any sense

Andred.1087:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

mtpelion.4562:

From a logical perspective, there would be no reason for Lion’s Arch to be rebuilt at this time.

The reason LA was originally rebuilt was due to its value as a trading port, a reason that currently does not exist since trade with the other continents no longer exists and the Risen threat prevents most ships from going anywhere of value.

Furthermore, a large portion of the population was either killed or displaced, making it unnecessary as a civilian center.

Honestly, it would almost make more sense to change it into a PvE map and put Mystic Forges in the other cities.

except it is still a central hub for trading on this continent of tyria relatively easily accessible from the different home zones for the different races

Given the instant-travel gateways, I would say quite easily accessible, indeed.

true i was trying to ignore that as they could technically be built anywhere

i like getting mats that i figure i will want to use eventually so i salvage everything including rares that are high enough to get ectos

mtpelion.4562:

From a logical perspective, there would be no reason for Lion’s Arch to be rebuilt at this time.

The reason LA was originally rebuilt was due to its value as a trading port, a reason that currently does not exist since trade with the other continents no longer exists and the Risen threat prevents most ships from going anywhere of value.

Furthermore, a large portion of the population was either killed or displaced, making it unnecessary as a civilian center.

Honestly, it would almost make more sense to change it into a PvE map and put Mystic Forges in the other cities.

except it is still a central hub for trading on this continent of tyria relatively easily accessible from the different home zones for the different races

mtpelion.4562:

I’d like to once again reiterate that the reason silk requires more is because there is a cloth/leather faucet that is constantly dumping materials into the economy without anyone intending to create them whereas this same faucet does not exist for ore/logs which are primarily generated by people intentionally gathering them in order to satisfy their own demand.

This ambient generation of materials is evenly distributed, as opposed to the farming generation method found with ore/logs which means that while the overall generation of cloth/leather is very high, individual generation is low requiring an individual to interact with other individuals in order to satisfy demand spikes that exceed their personal generation ability.

Long story short, ore/logs typically have a dynamic generation rate that satisfies demand, which limits the amount of excess product floating around. Cloth/leather have a relatively static generation rate which does not adapt well to changes in demand resulting in higher prices for T5 cloth (which has higher demand) and near useless prices for T5 leather (which has low demand).

sorry if this is an obvious thing but what is this faucet you talk (only thing i can think of being possible is salvaging, but that requires a specific type of armor drops or rag salvage mats which can produce things other than silk also

dailies are easy there are 4 PvE choices everyday so idk what OP is talking about you don’t ever have to do PvP or WvW to do the Daily

what i don’t understand about this discussion is can’t you just communicate your builds to your party so you don’t overlap on conditions as much ie if there is a person who can bleed another switch to vul or something like that i realize it isn’t always that easy but that would alleviate a large bit of the problem

Fermi.2409:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

also on the topic of a personal guild bank if it costs 2g per 1k renown then to get the 2500 you need to buy 6g worth plus 1g for the creation of the guild so it should be around 7g to make a guild bank without doing any events to earn the renown

You can buy exactly 2500 for 5g, you don’t need to go over.

thanks for that so 6g for 50 slots then

i was only going off of what people had posted as i haven’t really looked into it myself

Khisanth.2948:

Astral Projections.7320:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Astral Projections.7320:

Yes, I know that. You didn’t read what I said.

To repeat

Yah. But again, there are no champs in the low level areas. So either OP was in EOTM before playing 10 hours of the game (which is possible but either someone would have to recommend it and show him how to get there by running him to Lion’s Arch and going through the WvW portal, because new accounts can’t access WvW before level 18 or he reached level 18 and immediately went to EOTM and got the exotic in the short time he was there) or he is confused about getting an exotic as a drop

I was making a comment on the unlikelihood that he got an exotic within 10 hours of starting the game as opposed to the more likely possibility that he is confused about what he got,

IIRC, fire ele gives champ boxes, SB gives champ boxes, Caledon’s wurm gives champ boxes, and Maw gives champ boxes. Plus Fire ele’s got the champ steam ogre when a troll guild doesnt roll along and spawn it out of order. Granted, it’s been so long since I’ve done those events on a lower level character that I’m not sure if there’s a level requirement for getting the champ boxes from them. Coincidences aside, it is possible to get a named exotic that early. (And on that note, I know what to do to level my thief… as soon as she’s explored more of the map than just the path from the asura starting instance to the bank level in rata sum)

Of course, he could just as easily be referring to exotic champ loot bags. But since the OP basically abandoned the thread, hard to tell either way.

Yah. I forgot about them. However when I do those boss events on my level 20s and below level 20, I only got items scaled for that level. I suppose they occasionally hand out high level items but I suspect it’s rare.

Wiki says: “Like all loot, there is a high chance to get a loot bag of your level, and a chance to get a loot bag of the champion enemy’s level.” which makes me suspect either the char or the champ need to be high level enough to get an exotic drop, except maybe as a very low chance (which makes me doubtful that OP actually got an exotic within the first 10 hours of playing but confused the item with something else)

As long as the lower level characters still get the champ bags the chances of getting an exotic is actually pretty decent. Much higher than their chances of getting an exotic from a random mob kill anyway.

i’d imagine it would be fairly difficult for a new player to have enough dps to get credit for the event / mob drop in events like that though especially at events like FE / SB etc where a 100 players show up so it upscales to the most difficult version

also on the topic of a personal guild bank if it costs 2g per 1k renown then to get the 2500 you need to buy 6g worth plus 1g for the creation of the guild so it should be around 7g to make a guild bank without doing any events to earn the renown

enginner asuran or sylvari not sure which , living in …Divinities Reach or northern parts of queensdale

seek out caithe because bad insert word here ness

RashanDale.3609:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

necro getting maces or hammers just doesn’t make any sense at all

getting sword main hand would be cool though

why does this not make sense? Necros have always been the more brutal of the casters. If axes fit necros, hammers and maces fit too.

Leave the elegant stuff to the fancy mesmers.

to me its because they don’t cut you when hit (well i guess a spiked mace might be ok ) to me necromancers use blood to make their spells work so anything that doesn’t make it readily available to infect or corrupt doesn’t make much sense to me feel free to disagree of course

it seems weird to me that removing aegis is so low on the order considering the nature of that boon you’d think it would be what should be gone after first

tried the build spoj.9672 posted here last night (well as well as I could given no grand master traits (haven’t hit 80 yet)) and it was very fun to play dagger auto destroyed most open world mobs even without being lvl 80 i felt i was a good contributor doing CoF story and path 1, i see the benefit of zerker gear might use some ravager sprinkled in to get some higher condition dmg though (or whatever happens to drop )

once again thank you for the suggestion and knowledge of what to use and how to play it

Astral Projections.7320:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Astral Projections.7320:

I wonder how they handle the “practical jokers” who name a char against TOS and craft and sell large numbers of items with the tag, for example, crafted by Kitten You or crafted by Kill All (members of minority group)? Do these names all change automatically even after they’ve been sold a few times or does the company need to spend time and money tracking them down?

the game doesn’t have a system for detecting against TOS names at creation?

Some, yes. But creative spelling can get names past the censors.

ah i see thanks, yes yes that would be a huge factor so its no wonder more games don’t have it

necro getting maces or hammers just doesn’t make any sense at all

getting sword main hand would be cool though

Astral Projections.7320:

I wonder how they handle the “practical jokers” who name a char against TOS and craft and sell large numbers of items with the tag, for example, crafted by Kitten You or crafted by Kill All (members of minority group)? Do these names all change automatically even after they’ve been sold a few times or does the company need to spend time and money tracking them down?

the game doesn’t have a system for detecting against TOS names at creation?

not really my favorite due to how often the NPC say it but “more violets less violence” any sylvari npc ANY

that’d be cool but is probably something that would take way to much effort to implement after the launch of the game probably easiest to put into the code when designing the crafting system

i profited used all that i had sold the vender crap that came out saving the food for later

now i could have made more profit selling the envelopes but i didn’t

man i really need to read the tool tips better i haven’t been using consume conditions as i thought it would only heal if you had a condition

also question due nec have access to any combo finishers? i ask because the well skills give a dark field it’d be nice to pull off a combo on occasion when going solo

thanks for the response i can’t watch the video right now (at work) but will check it out later, the spectral skills looked good to me because i thought the trait said they no longer had durations but that was obviously not true (would probably be too powerful )

WyldKat.4712:

This is my least favorite mini game. It rewards focus fire and staying together to do so. All you need is someone clueless on the other team to start running around alone and that’s that.

Didn’t they put 30 minutes as the match timer? My gods, knock that sucker down to 10 minutes tops. It’s not like these are going that long. I have had a few close matches, but it’s usually a meatgrinder once one side loses a person or two.

On the plus side, it’s fast paced with the tiny arena. Thankful for that much.

i have only played 6 matches or so but i don’t think any 1 indivual round ever lasted more than 10minutes anyways and a couple of em were 500-350+ or so

sorry i do mostly PvE

goal here is to keep DS up as much as possible

and get lots of life force when not in DS

gear suggestions welcomed as well as alternate (better) trait setups / weapon choices

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNBIhZ6kkmGRt202s2mzGG3k2g/GTsLUQHAp5yG5G8BUeGVBA-e

posted this in the big build thread and no response so figured i’d post it again

i was thinking of something like this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNBIhZ6kkmGRt202s2mzGG3k2g/GTsLUQHAp5yG5G8BUeGVBA-e

i don’t know what type of gear would be best for this as i need some considerable up there toughness due to the range of dagger+warhorn skills also any better trait set ups for this i’d like to be able to keep DS up as much as possible hence all the stuff i picked up about

can’t really test this yet either as my necro isn’t level 80 yet so anyone with critiques or suggestions would be most welcome

Dinks.2478:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

No necro can’t do as much dps as a warrior. It will do around 10% less dps. But your point is true. Except thief and Elementalist, most other profession do around the the same dps +/-15%. Its the utilities they bring that make them useful of not.

and that 10% doesn’t really seem to matter in most content as it would just take 1/5 of 10% more time

As stated it isn’t the 10% damage that matters. Necros are a selfish class and don’t offer anything useful to the party be it defensive or offensive. Example: Guardians do inferior DPS to most classes but have blocks, swiftness, blinds, reflects, etc.

i think you are being a bit harsh using axe’s a necro can provide a ton of different conditions vulnerability being , spec’d right one also can give bleed i think cripple i haven’t played with other weapons much but i think there is some versatility that you are overlooking

Mirta.5029:

Buttercup.5871:

Thanks Mirta, for your elaborate thesis on why pseudo RNG is not the problem. Did you read anything in this thread before you started posting? Because I’ve never implied any “tampering” anywhere. If you have the knowledge to explain to me why a pseudo RNG system is not problematic for the manner in which this game uses it, I’m all ears, I truly am. But if not, please stop trolling.

okay, how about, I did games design and predetermined is not how you do it? You put at least 3 layers of random on it to begin with and I made a simple example in past pages of the thread. Please give me the code to GW2 now and show me their RNG systems and why you believe it’s pre-set.

ah my idea was validated to be possible yay

sorry for going off topic a bit

predetermined is silly because with enough data people would figure it out and then know exactly how to get items leading to a ton more than ANET intended to be in circulation

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

No necro can’t do as much dps as a warrior. It will do around 10% less dps. But your point is true. Except thief and Elementalist, most other profession do around the the same dps +/-15%. Its the utilities they bring that make them useful of not.

and that 10% doesn’t really seem to matter in most content as it would just take 1/5 of 10% more time

also can’t you just play it on wine if you can install it via wine?

there also isn’t any gurantee that it is in 1 pRNG alone it could have multiple seeds generated in some sort of nested way to increase how actually random it is and have the internal seeds reset at different times causing another reset down the line if you’re not a developer you can’t really even guess on how it works

RoseofGilead.8907:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

is there not an EU megaserver?

OP said he wants to play with his friends in wvw. Megaservers aren’t a thing in wvw.

didn’t notice the WvW part sorry

OP feel free to ignore me

Tachenon.5270:

Mass quantities of risen were already on the other side of the gate, between our characters and the conveniently undestroyed ship, rendering the whole I’ll hold them off here while you escape self-sacrifice thing pointless. Plus, in the time we wasted chit-chatting about it, we could have already boarded the ship and been on our merry way.

I think anet should revise that mission and (ahem) bring ’em back alive!

New dialogue options for the scene at the gate:

Mentor: I’ll hold ’em off! You guys get outta here! Goodbye, cruel world! Ahhhhh!

Character:

1. Okay, then. (Mentor dies, character flees, ship sails, story continues as before until it hits the NPE’d portion.)

2. What are you, some kinda skritt wit? Get your rear in gear, we’re outta here! (Character flees, mentor flees, ship sails, mentor is promoted and assigned to a desk job in Siberia never to be seen again, story continues as before until it hits the NPE’d portion.)

3. Character knocks mentor out, shuts the gate, defeats risen army and dragon; Zhaitan subsequently surrenders and convinces the other elder dragons to join him in a Carpenters cover band, everyone has a beer except Trahearne, who is the designated driver and has a diet soda.

sorry to be blunt about this but those ideas are for 1. incredibly stupid and 2. slightly funny but not nearly enough to actually want it to happen

now it is entirely possible you intended those situations to just be funny and not actual ideas if so again sorry

is there not an EU megaserver?

they are better during the holiday events as you’re guaranteed to get a lucky envelope (for the new years event) that being said i only will buy chests off of TP when i get a key to drop don’t bother farming them or buying keys off of gem store

One Note Chord.5031:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Purple Miku.7032:

Just make the waypoints contested from the event chain but leave the dungeon entrance open.

This would completely solve the issue.

Then I wouldn’t be forced to pay people gold to open an Arah instance for me or wait 20-30 mins for the open world zerg to open the door.

CoE’s is the worst though. I think I’d rather get herpes than do that event chain tbh.

without having done the event i can’t really disagree or agree with you but is it so bad your party won’t be willing to do the chain to get back into the dungeon?

Kill trolls, kill a vet troll, wait for the next event to start, escort, kill some waves, run around and do four events that are spread out, chase a teleporting champ down. It’s certainly not immediate.

But more than that, I want to do dungeons, not events. So a lot of the time I’d rather just move on to another dungeon and then come back to coe later, once someone else (and I’m glad to hear there are folks out there who like doing these events, so I don’t have to!) has opened it.

well that is quite the involved event chain so i think some complaints are justified but it could also be ANET’s way of encouraging dungeon peeps to be more involved with the zones that dungeons are in

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Pinkeh.4207:

People who run around on their own instead of moving with the team.

I actually think that his is what’s wrong with DragonBall.
It’s a zerg fest, not an actuall PvP game based on personal skill.

I’ve yet to win a 1v2 against players that knew what they were doing…

a 1v2 should be very very hard for the outnumbered side to win its just logic unless your super skilled (and you may be) numbers give a big big advantage

on topic though i personally like the event sure the win 5 matches daily is a bit much but the individual rounds are fun (for me) although in a week it might get tedious

Purple Miku.7032:

Yes, for sure.

It’s the biggest reason why people decide to skip CoE quite often.

just curious for an average version of the event chain how long does it take? or is it just a pain?

read in this sub forum https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior

probably have a few the wiki probably does also http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page

or you can use your capital city (in your case divinities reach) cheap wp cost to get the initial wp outside if you haven’t been inside yet and then a pretty easy run to the asura gate to LA

Purple Miku.7032:

Just make the waypoints contested from the event chain but leave the dungeon entrance open.

This would completely solve the issue.

Then I wouldn’t be forced to pay people gold to open an Arah instance for me or wait 20-30 mins for the open world zerg to open the door.

CoE’s is the worst though. I think I’d rather get herpes than do that event chain tbh.

without having done the event i can’t really disagree or agree with you but is it so bad your party won’t be willing to do the chain to get back into the dungeon?