You say don’t care about “their stated design philosophies”, perhaps someone closer could hear the heart breaking of a dev each time they were told that if they wanted to continue working on the project they’d have to sacrifice a little of the dream to pay for it…
The fan base for GW1 isn’t soley responsible for hyping this game up – but since GW2 let you down in basically every other way I’ll concede that it is in fact the baby of the GW1 player community and as such you should fight Anet for control! :-P
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You haven’t been able to get it because there has been nothing to get.
So whats the point in doing the living story if there’s ‘nothing to get’? Is it just another time sink?
If they add content there has to be a benefit for both the player and the developer or we end up with useless content which takes the developers away from fixing real issues with the game.
Different goal/reward structure – the player chose to pass on some “Gear/Time” efficiency to instead be told a (pretty ordinary) story and enjoy their place as a key support character within in.
Their Goal/Reward was to be told a story and (more tangible than digi-loot) enjoy/be engaged by it (so much suspension of disbelief req’d it needs an achievement).
If there’s not the poster child for why GW2 is not grinding fractals/dailies – for play as you want – I’m not sure what is.
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Ahhh I see too… and please don’t take this as attack when I’m trying to understand this particular POV.
You are in a state of constant preparation due to..?
Getting stat gear is done by playing the game, and playing the game is what is meant to be rewarding the player…
You see getting stat gear as preparation for what? Having all the loots? That big raid that yet to be clocked?
Higher level fractals, WvW
WvW is a reasonable point, except that the customers’ hardware/ISP is going to impact at least as much, there will be a gate to the top competition eventually (res 800 plox).
Higher level fractals are a self fulfulling prophesy – you want to run fractals, so you run fractals, to gear for fractals, so you can run fractals, no entry gate (assuming you are not a complete muppet) and an almost perfectly closed loop and well planned if they continue a verticle progression (they have as much said they will), unlike the cheap shot mechanic they snuck in there… Agony lol.
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Hm I’d think the nerd rage would be much worse if they lead people on for months and months and then surprise them with a new step to the gear grind, but it’s okay because they “hope” that next tier after ascended is the last tier. At least until it happens again. They already burned a lot of good faith by advertising for 5 years of development that there would be no vertical progression and then adding it 3 months in. A lot of people don’t trust Anet after that bait and switch and just skirting the issue and giving non-answers really only exacerbates it. It’s idiotic, makes it look like they don’t know what they’re doing with their own game, and alienates their playerbase.
It alienates the portion of the player base that feels betrayed, and while I have no doubt that retaining people who were leaving/not playing GW1 was on their list of important things to do, I suspect claiming players from outside their own products was MORE important.
GW1 is still there and cheaper to provide to a customer than GW2 (at this point), logic dictates that the people pining for GW1 type products are not going to be as interesting to Anet as those who able to be captured from competing COMPANIES.
I’m not saying that you’re wrong to feel hurt, I’m saying it makes sense that it was going to happen – writing has been on the wall for a long time.
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Actually it’s no answers to any questions. He’s just talking about how he “hopes” that it won’t become a gear grind, and he “thinks” we won’t see a new tier in 2013. There is literally, unarguably no useful information in that “answer” and there hasn’t been in any of their responses about ascended gear really.
That sort of response is about the best you can “hope” for, I “think” you are forgotting how much nerd-rage is created when someone in Anet forgets to preamble a response, especially when the responses don’t seem to fit the “answer” the players want…
Apt name by the way – love it.
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When they give a definitive answer as to whether or not they’ll keep adding tiers then it’ll be fine. As it is with all of this double speak and the best we can get is, “Is this going to become a gear-tiered game where you’re constantly on this treadmill to chase after that stuff? My hope would be no. I think that certainly in 2013 you’re not going to see another tier of gear.” I’m incredibly skeptical and it all seems like a waste of time to even gear up at all.
The double speak is actually two answers, to two questions – the fact the keep getting asked those two questions TOGETHER may be part of the reason it seems the answers contradict each other… but the risk of trying to be clever with loaded (false) questioning.
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Always best to hold off and see what is coming next.
You wouldn’t want to invest a bunch of time in game (playing, running encounters, having fun) just to have to do it again later when new gear is introduced.
I pretty much intend just to sit back until “Final Expansion” is the word and grind out one set of gear then – should assist with making sure I don’t waste time I could be having fun.
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DR – It only effects the player not the bots. Bots farm all day and it doesn’t really matter what they get because they spent no time trying to earn it.
Gated Content – I have to wait weeks and months to get stuff thats brand new. Im completely hopeless with this system and cannot speed up the process by putting in more effort.
Ascended Gear – Not so much the fact they released a new tier but how its obtained is so bad. Whoever thought this up should be let go.
Other then that is a pretty solid game for being 6 months old. But they have to stop now with this month long grind each day to get gear. Its going to kitten a lot of people off and its a horrible system.
DR – the idea came from Smiter’s Boon
Gated Content – the idea also came from Smiter’s Boon
Ascended Gear – the idea definitely came from Smiter’s Boon
Did you know that everything that is going wrong in this game is the fault of a single person?
Where is this Smitner? Clearly this Boon fellow Smitner owns needs to be stopped now!
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@ post above me: I find personal feelings completely irrelevant in terms of defining what a game’s fundamental flaws are. Yes, and I mean are.
Everyone has their opinions about the game, whether personal or not, Anet does not consider feelings into the matter. They look at things from systems, these are perspectives in which most of us (unless in engineering) would not understand.
Although you’re right to some degree. There is a certain way of doing things…. but it’s definitely not based on public manifests and manipulations of the economy. Good engineers or software developers generally take “good use of talent” over “the money”…. and it’s generally impossible to maintain a complex system like a game with loop-holes everywhere.
Also, apples is a large branding company (I mean, a company that can sell simply with brand and having mediocre growth technology) so it is different from GW2….. the larger a company is then the more management involvement exists, which typically results in having more branding marketing than one would want (again, marketing is fine up until the point where it needs to inject itself into the system and manipulate the results).
Oh – but quite the opposite in this case, if one is asking for answers based on their perceptions and opinions – the listener knowing a little about how they are formed, or more to the point what they may be missing, is key to communicating well. “Personal” is not a dirty word i this case.
There is still a lot of assumptions that we have to accept in the OP, I will attempt to do that in the good faith that intricate aspects of pragmatic, profit orientated, software development are in fact lost as inferred.
But those points, aside – sorry what were you trying to convey there – that Anet are not using their talent well, are profiteering at the sake of the product?
My point regarding Apple is that not even they could buy their way out of “more of the same” type publicity – which is what all the GW1/Manifesto kids are asking for, a shiny version of the last generation product, even hipsters moved on (Apple example)…
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What Sammy also knew is that the emotional involvement of those who want it more, meants they will even further skew their perception – I can invest more (everything and care less about an exotic/legendary than someone else who invests less (whatever) and cares more.
In short – because you care about loots it will never drop, NEVER.
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I like to think that maybe for once a game wants us to work out some of the details, rather than spoonfeeding – since they can’t introduce any difficulty (thanks kids) in the game they’ve just made theorycraft a game that requires you confirm every forumula.
Maybe I am too old for these games – I remember when sharing puzzle solutions with other players was bannable in games I worked on, now if a puzzle takes longer than the Google search to reveal it cries go out that it is broken…
I’m probably just as old as you, but I have to disagree with your analogy here. I don’t think practical, informative tooltips is asking for too much. It’s not and shouldn’t be a “puzzle” to be sorted out. That’s kind of like saying you shouldn’t expect a thorough manual with your new car, but instead you should enjoy finding it all out for yourself by tinkering under the hood.
Yes – I’m saying if you want more information about your new car than the user manual provides you ought to tinker under the hood or in the dash, becuase your example is entirely unsuitable for this case.
If you wish to know the exact proportions of +whatever converted to +whateverelse and the scaling for that as you stack it there should be a trial/error/log examinations – in short you should figure that part out (if you are capable) and not be spoonfed.
Mind you I CAN do what I suggest above – so perhaps capability skews MY point of view at the other end of the scale…
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Who says major corporations or billionaires can’t launder money on ginormous scales?
I’m sure it happens in the real world, and probably even accounts for the vast majority of money illegally transferred.
the person who posted it was the first to post it, so they had no competition, and wanted some rich kid to pay $1000 of his parent’s money to buy it.
Fiat currencies that are a little more difficult to vanish and a lot easier to use for that purpose already exist – Linden dollars are reasonably abused to launder cash and not anywhere near as volatile as GW2 gold.
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I agree with the people who said that the problem with ascended is it forces us to play a specific way to acquire them. Compared to exotics and lower tiers, we can do anything we want and yet still be able to acquire them. With ascended equips, I have to do fractals, or guild missions or dailies (activities which weren’t part of my regular routine before) so that I can get them items.
I’m still confused as to why people would keep on saying ’it’s optional, you don’t have to get it’. We aren’t required to get to level 99 in other games either. Level 98 is fine and yet why do we pursue max level or final equipments in other games? GW2 isn’t an exception. Heck, we can even do anything with just green items in GW2 but why do we want to get exotics?
I think that those people are failing to clearly say something more like “One is setting one’s own goals, and they come with their own challenges. Once one has set one’s goals one ought to man up and strive, or reevaluate one’s earlier choice with experiences gained.”
Counter to that is that some will set goals within game that for many reasons will not be obtainable for them, and they will come here and ask for the game to be altered to suit that choice, with a paper thin and rage filled “logical reason” to do so.
It is all about understanding the choice… lol.
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“This is just classic “No path to player, so no fighting” behavior, which is there to prevent zero-risk farming. (A type of farming easily exploited by bots.)”
And Athene – funny guy.
I suspect half the people here realise this, usually when a mechanic so simple is being “misunderstood” it is a sign of something nefarious going on.
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I worry about how personally connected some of you feel to the developement team (abstractualised) and the game (well mostly its predecessor GW1).
When looking at threads like this I have to ask the poster three questions:
1. Have you ever been involved in projects that run over several years, several teams, with the intent of producing a marketable good/service at the end?
2. Have you ever seen the outcome of a product developed in a vacuum to be a direct replacement for their earlier versions? Only Apple can get away with this (for only so long).
3. Have you in fact stumbled onto a market segment scorned that could be exploited for profit, and in which case why are you here rather than making the millions that Anet is ignoring?
But I think one thing that should be shouted out to all the GW1 hardcores and those who sat baited breath for years waiting for the manifesto to… well manifest – hey guys – you mad?
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Ahhh I see too… and please don’t take this as attack when I’m trying to understand this particular POV.
You are in a state of constant preparation due to..?
Getting stat gear is done by playing the game, and playing the game is what is meant to be rewarding the player…
You see getting stat gear as preparation for what? Having all the loots? That big raid that yet to be clocked?
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I like to think that maybe for once a game wants us to work out some of the details, rather than spoonfeeding – since they can’t introduce any difficulty (thanks kids) in the game they’ve just made theorycraft a game that requires you confirm every forumula.
Maybe I am too old for these games – I remember when sharing puzzle solutions with other players was bannable in games I worked on, now if a puzzle takes longer than the Google search to reveal it cries go out that it is broken…
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General PVE is so easy you don’t even need other players.
For Story Modes you do.
How many times I need to beg help arround to do a story mode… —’
REALLY.
I thought we needed a group to complete the personal stories.
Don’t we? There are stories mode that we have 2 options:
- Call for help.
- Wait till higher levels to do it easier.
:)
Completing personal story REQUIRES a group. There is no ‘wait til higher level’ for Arah.
^ This.
I helped someone with theirs once but I can’t get anyone to help me with mine so I quit the personal story at the end. The reward isn’t worth it anyway, should be epic but it may as well be a standard DE reward.
If you cannot find four people for one run, even without a decent LFG tool, the game cannot be held to blame – there has to be something else involved, did you at least shout out for a PUG?
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Hey OP, can you list all the AAA MMOs that had an LFG at launch. Cause I’m having trouble thinking of any.
How about you provide us with a list of the AAA MMOs released in the last 18 months that did not include one six months after release, much more relevant.
I can still see how there are major bugs that could be related to why this has not been rolled out yet… but it is very needed.
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Do they still run the hardware check under the software?
GW1 is a champion of the software world as it was also capable of error checking the client’s hardware platform to some degree.
The number of “bugs” out there being reported by players that were able to be completely ignored due to evidence that client side platform was at fault was HUGE.
ANet – always getting better at knowing what not to listen to!
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You are aware that such a site (out of game game services, not LFG specifically) has been used before, not by its creators but by a third party (gold sellers) to target groups of players for attack/exploit?
Again I can see some reasons why it might be taking a while, but that doesn’t mean I need to advocate some potentially dodge site.
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Charged Lodestone? Hah! Just wait until you need Crystal Lodestones, they don’t even HAVE a dungeon or area where they drop… it’s friggin’ ridiculous.
Crystal lodestones are cheap last i saw 42s or so. If charged lodestones were that cheap (near 2g 80s+ atm) this thread wouldn’t have been made. And yes they do have a dungeon they drop in… fractals. Got one the other day.
Edit: Oh, and you also have a very small chance of getting one from the lost orrian jewelry box.
I know they’re cheaper, but they are nonetheless more rare, and plenty expensive for a casual player. They’re also yet another example of how screwed up the economy is (a fact that Anet’s lead economist denies out of foolish pride), they’re worth a third of an item that is several times more commonly found. And yet they’re placed in the same item tier… and let’s face it, if they weren’t an ingredient in The Crossing, they’d would be worth nothing at all, in spite of possibly being the rarest mat drop in the game.
And yes, they drop from fractals and jewelry boxes, but so does every lodestone, and none drop frequently.
Cheaper but nonetheless more rare just indicates demand side impact is greater than supply side impact… I don’t see broken economics there, just missing half the picture.
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How about we just get the title of the thread more accurately changed to something like “Suggestions – Improve AI as it shocking” and put aside the comparison of a mature AI in a different game to the obviously immature one in this game.
Look at either enemy or friendly AI and I would be shocked to discover any developer willing to put their hand up and take responsibility for it – and to be honest I think the real AI dev is still locked in the Anet basement and the work-experience kid knocked this one up just before launch.
WITHOUT making comparisons to GW1, or manifesto references, most of the points people have here are valid gripes that could be presented in a different way…
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Looks like this is going to be a trending topic for the next week or so … so instead of repeating myself, I’m just going to point at my sig that I had for the past month or so.
I know there is a third party option… can you just fill me in on the privacy and security implications of visiting some third party site rather than repeating yourself all week?
I can see why it is delayed, agree it is needed, but do not accept that site as a solution (work around with unknown risk at best).
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A game designed to be social needs a decent LFG tool, note that LFG tool and “random group insertion and teleport” are very different things.
Why has it taken so long is a lot easier to work out though, look at the cross server guesting – how long ago did they roll that out and would you consider it finished enough? There is a soft pre-requisite for that to be sorted for a good LFG to actually work…
If you played GW1, you’d realise that it’s not that hard. transferring servers could be done within the world, party search was an actual thing, not (only) a spam in LA.
Don’t make assumptions – for all you know I may have been a key dev on GW1, or that GW2 is an entirely new software package…
I had Clippy in office before and as such Clippy should be trivial to include in every office like package forever – because software!
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Dropping more item assets doesn’t equate to content as many people are crying out for it, nor does slapping a reward system on top of exising content and suggesting it is a new thing.
So you’re saying that if ANet released one whole set of Ascended armor tomorrow, that’s not a “content update”?
I sure hope I’m not considered crazy for saying that yes, that would absolutely be a “content update”, because those items are content.
Content serves a variety of needs. Some content is designed to serve a need for more story (campaigns or maps), other content is simply to provide more ways to play (new modes or skills), and a third form of content seeks to help players feel as through they’ve achieved something and to reward their efforts (either with tangibles like equipment, or intangibles such as achievement systems).
That is why you’ll see some developers use the term to refer specifically to events, while others will use it to refer to new rewards and rewards systems. And this is also why the blanket term “downloadable content” is used to refer to any form of downloadable patching to the game, including aesthetics, gear, and rewards.
And the fact that we actually have to sit here and explain the varied usages of the term “content” so that people will stop whining about another person’s correct usage of the term in a different context….that’s just unfortunate, to say the least.
Actually I stated that I do assume that is “content” in line one, all assets and objects, etc.
Many people are misusing the term “content” in place of what they really want but are having trouble describing – new (to GW2) gameplay and encounters – due to straw splitting over jargon (which I approve of).
Slapping a system of reward (dailies) into the game does in the most literal programmers jargon make “content” but to the average joe, and from what I’ve seen most vocal critics, not offer enough meaningful gameplay.
Dailies aren’t meaningful gameplay, that is not what they are meant for either.
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A game designed to be social needs a decent LFG tool, note that LFG tool and “random group insertion and teleport” are very different things.
Why has it taken so long is a lot easier to work out though, look at the cross server guesting – how long ago did they roll that out and would you consider it finished enough? There is a soft pre-requisite for that to be sorted for a good LFG to actually work…
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If anything, I hope they don’t add extra levels to the cap. It wouldn’t do anything other than add a chore for a week, but it would be a balance nightmare.
Just look at what happened in World of Kittencraft. At some point, the number of skill points gained per level had to be reduced because players got too close not having all skills instead of a build. And then they made levelling faster because getting up there took too long…
…seriously, it won’t do anyone any favors. It only creates an illusion of progress and a stupid bunch of problems.
There is a lot of not quite accurate there… just saying.
I think many players are (in a lot of cases) really suffering from Nostalgia, I loved Hero Quest back a very long time ago (by Sierra) – however I can assure you I don’t accurately remember how much time and pain I put in to get those very warm memories.
Actually now I think about it there was a lot of things HQ1 handled much better than GW2 and it was definately more fun… I might start a thread.
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Dropping more item assets doesn’t equate to content as many people are crying out for it, nor does slapping a reward system on top of exising content and suggesting it is a new thing.
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I wouldn’t sweat the laurels too much. It seems to be more of a baseline way to get stuff if all else fails. I would figure we’ll see new ways to get various ascended gear over time.
I tend to think this has merit.
It could be what we are seeing is the “welfare” pathing being introduced before the “content” pathing.
Odd as that may be I can see encounters dropping nice loots in the future, and cries up here because those who did the laurel grind feel cheated by those who run encounters and get their loots there.
All optimism aside we should probably prepare for “dungeon welfare loots” threads now.
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You just don’t have enough of a downside to warrant it….period!
No one is having such a hard time that they need to see what everyone is wearing. Most all of the content can be run in greens. If not, it’s skill. Can you spec skill now too? Such a ridiculous request/subject for this game.
I recall games that would allow you to evaluate the skill of a player based on whether they’d spec’d correctly…
Spec’d Correctly? According to whom? The game’s populace? No player has a right to dictate how another player should gear their toon. And by no means does it mean that their assumption of correct spec is even right to begin with.. Really? Taking the word of another player of what spec is correct is absurd.. They know just as much as anyone else..
I really thought that the sarcasm there was clear…
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You just don’t have enough of a downside to warrant it….period!
No one is having such a hard time that they need to see what everyone is wearing. Most all of the content can be run in greens. If not, it’s skill. Can you spec skill now too? Such a ridiculous request/subject for this game.
I recall games that would allow you to evaluate the skill of a player based on whether they’d spec’d correctly…
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Elitists are a small, but LOUD minority who prefer the company of each other. If you guys could grow a pair and stop playing the victim, you’d realize you’re the majority and there are plenty of like-minded people you can group with.
That would also require accepting that the guy growing a pair also needs to tell the rest of them what role they are playing and what content is pro.
Please majority – don’t work out how to make your own fun but rather maintain LA position and wait for my “LF” message.
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They only had around harhrhrhrhrhrm developers, an aging core engine, and fwwwaarg – it had to go this way if the product was ever going to narrrrrrrrrrg.
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The challenge here is that the game has to err on the side of the mobs in these situations, they cannot profit or gain from exploiting a player…
The challenge you describe is no the challenge at hand. If they realy thought on the issue then they should have not litterd whole landscape with mobs just for filling the void. They should have thought out placement of mobs on the ground were they are profficient at what they do, not because some “lore mastermind” placed on the feeling based in some mythology. The landescape should also be adjusted for them to feel like they are masters of the land what they claim. Right now all the lands feel more like some art shmuck painted it and 3D artits just bloated it to poligons, how many time have you encauntered places where things doesnt stick like they are generated from some picture and not because they realy polished the walkable path?
None of those things have any impact on the issue I outlined.
Sounds like someone got up today and forgot to suspend their disbelief…
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See – problem in living case, ain’t no thing till it is yo!
You are asking players who may not speak with anyone in their household for days at a time to learn simple manners and apply them without any threat or sanction.
What is worrying is the number of them who would show greater respect for guild member or leader, than a colleague or boss…
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Trust me – the WoW crowd had a better top end (jks).
This game does need a kick in the complexity, but I don’t think GW1 players specifically feel this.
“We do feel like we were ignored and brushed aside to attract the WoW crowd.”
There are people posting up here who completely failed at WoW and are now claiming to be GW1 vets and are trying to make a game they can cope with, they are making all the real GWVets look bad…
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Just wanted to remind you all that a much higher revenue, bigger dev team, larger player based, MMORPG that dominated the gaming landscape for many years had this exact issue until well into the third expansion and four or five years of “working on it”.
The challenge here is that the game has to err on the side of the mobs in these situations, they cannot profit or gain from exploiting a player…
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To be honest I am just sitting back and waiting for an “exploit”, and the rage at Anet to begin.
All it will take is a little javascript and suddenly we will hear one hundred billion voices all at once claiming the servers were comprimised and that ANet is responsible.
And who will be to blame, the guy who skips updates and clicks blind links – or Anet for not finishing the LFG tool? Really who would you point at first?
Feeling bad due to my response does not mean it was a personal attack.
It may just be that your original statement was wrong.
Please try again.
