CS agents are very busy and overworked right now dealing with problems resulting from the last patch. At a glance it looks a lot like your name is a deliberate misspelling for something a lot like “Richard’s Maleparts” so the investigating agent may have made a mistake. I suggest contacting Support and explaining the meaning behind the words and waiting for an answer from them, they may reverse the earlier decision upon consideration.
Also, remember that there are around 4 million GW2 accounts. Even if only 25% of those are active players (and that’s a very conservative estimate) that means @1 million people. If all the active players were gathered in one place, and everyone posting complaints on the forums stood together in a group and waved signs in the air, the devs, looking out over the crowd… wouldn’t even see them.
As long as Bifrost requires some number of unid’d dyes, and as long as there is a demand for rare dyes, there will always be a demand for unid’d dyes. Due to the changes in drops, supply will diminish faster than demand does.
Right now the only thing that will cause prices to drop is speculator impatience, if people get tired of holding on to their stacks of dyes and too many dump them at price X, then they’ll end up competing with each other for quick sales and the price will drop rapidly. Otherwise prices will slowly climb over a period of months.
The only players who actually care about this issue are the ones who like to make threads about the evil TP undercutters who steal the hard earned play money from someone by pricing just under the current market price. It’s not a real magic sword and you’re not paying for it with real gold coins, the vast majority of players don’t even bother thinking about the moral implications of buying a virtual object that’s one imaginary penny cheaper.
The real issue is “I want to sell my stuff now and when someone undercuts me, then someone undercuts him it takes that much longer to get my play money so I can buy more virtual stuff. Make people buy my stuff instead!”
The issue will still exist whether it’s one fake penny or ten or a fake silver or 15 fake gold lower. You’ll still get undercut and have to wait for your fake money and the devs aren’t going to rearrange the game to suit you.
Its still a terrible idea because it would bring alot of markets out of equilibrium.
Not to mention an incredible waste of time and resources that could be spent fixing bugs or creating new content. And for what, so some OCD packrats can make 50 silver? If it’s unsellable, untradeable, and unusable, just delete it if you need the bank space.
The funny thing is they already claimed to be working on precursor hunt back in 2013 January.
Honestly, how hard could it possibly be to add a precursor in Laurel vendor, 1 precursor 100 Laurels.
You’re a genius!
Now, explain what happens after a few hundred thousand players all buy a precursor at once and need 250-unit stacks of various crafting materials to complete their Legendaries, completely draining the TP of all such crafting mats in about ten minutes and shooting the price for new mats up 10,000% in less than a day.
Ticket # 564600
Last response I got was April 25th asking to be patient & was told I have been flagged to speed the process up. Replied to that email from support on 5-1 concerning no response for a week, havent heard anything from my email on 5-1 & my ticket # hasnt appeared in any of your update posts.
It looks like this is your first post in the Tickets for Review thread. Gaile cannot know that you haven’t received a reply and want her to check on the ticket unless you post it here.
Was going by this
Please do not post more than once in this thread unless you have not seen a response to your inquiry in the most recent three updates. Thank you.
I have not seen a response in the last 3 updates so Im posting in this thread. Am I missing something?
Well, if today is your first post in this thread, you aren’t going to see a response in the most recent updates because you have to post in this thread before she adds you to the list of updates.
It’s like complaining about how long it takes for your food to arrive when you haven’t even looked at the menu yet, let alone placed an order.
The message you quoted is because CS is swamped with tickets right now, they are working overtime to get to everyone but it’s still taking longer than usual. People are getting impatient and posting too often in this thread under the mistaken impression that doing so will bump them ahead in line. She’s just telling everyone to be patient and not to post “what’s going on with my ticket” every day.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
So, who is going to create a database of thousands (tens of thousands?) of items, most of which no one wants anyway, decide what the fair price of each should be, and update the game so that the entire system works perfectly and do it all within the next month or two when most of their resources are directed towards the China release and LS pt 2?
Also, please send three or four of his clones to my house, there are some chores I’ve been putting off that really should be done soon.
Ticket # 564600
Last response I got was April 25th asking to be patient & was told I have been flagged to speed the process up. Replied to that email from support on 5-1 concerning no response for a week, havent heard anything from my email on 5-1 & my ticket # hasnt appeared in any of your update posts.
It looks like this is your first post in the Tickets for Review thread. Gaile cannot know that you haven’t received a reply and want her to check on the ticket unless you post it here.
No one is saying the TP is a bad thing…
Actually several people have said exactly that in recent threads.
I think what they meant is “TP in this game” is a bad thing.
No one is complaining on the Rift forum.
You can even ask in any mmorpg forum. People arn’t complaining about TP in other mmorpg. Beside in games like GW2 and vanilla Diablo 3.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. For the record, the Rift economy is fine, I had a very easy time making money. Most players there didn’t even know how to do what I did, so why would they complain about something when they didn’t know it was happening?
No one is saying the TP is a bad thing…
Actually several people have said exactly that in recent threads.
If you want to focus on Legendary weapons, be prepared to do the things Anet devs want you to do for it. If you realize that this is not every player’s goal for their game time, then it opens up a lot of other possibilities to spend your time on.
Got Dusk from the Shadow Behemoth bonus chest about a year ago. Sold it and spent the gold on the same sort of things I bought with the gold I got from selling anything. Crafting mats to level alts, gear to outfit alts that I leveled, gave some money to my wife, bought some armor/weapons to transmute because I liked the look…
So yeah if the endgame is supposed to be pvp based, then they are going to lose a lot of players when endgame comes around. Which honestly seems to be somewhat true. The amount of people who have left and yet to return is not small.
but lets not get it twisted, this isnt just about casual, many midcore and hardcore people also dislike the Gold wars style and reward structures.
Midcore? I’ve always seen the discussion based on casual/hardcore divisions, now you’re subdividing casuals to support your argument?
Anyway, the game is approaching two years old now, and I’m sure that Anet has plenty of data on how many players have reached “endgame” and whether they still log in and how often. Perhaps if they do see interest waning, they will stir things up a bit by revisiting the original design and looking for things they can improve or new features to add to the game to bring players back to check it out. Perhaps they may even introduce this in one big release, almost like an expansion but without charging anything for it…
Anyway, I’ve been following the discussion more or less, but your statements are so random that I don’t even know what it is you want. Many people have claimed they complain because they love the game and want it to improve, and I think (?) you are among them, but it seems like there is nothing about the game you really like.
If you don’t like the core design of the game, why aren’t you playing one of the dozens of other MMOs out there (most of them are free to play so there’s not a lot of commitment tied to playing them for a few weeks) to see what game suits you better? I did that, in the year and a half between buying Rift and GW2 I tried many different games and if one wasn’t a good match for me I moved on, I didn’t go badmouthing it on the forums for six months.
so basically if you went to a shop and bought an item for a $100 dollar, and then the next day the shop offer the item for $50, you’re entitled for a refund ?
It depends on local/national laws but in some cases, yes, they have to refund the difference if an item goes on sale within a specific period (usually two weeks) after you bought it. It’s also good for customer relations, people will tend not to shop there if they think there’s going to be a sale next week. So if you bring in your receipt to show that you actually recently bought the item that just went on sale, often the store will refund the difference.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Once again, if any moderator comes past this, could you please close or delete the topic?
Use the “report” flag in the first post in this thread to report it, state that you created the topic and request that it be closed.
Anyway, none of this changes the fact that the reward structure in GW2 is as it is (play as you like and you’ll slowly make progress toward a variety of different cosmetic skins; if you want to go faster, you can sell undesired items or find other ways to make money … progress may be unsatisfying because it’s so slow without trading) … I just think that the Trading Post isn’t the root of that problem.
The TP makes the process go faster… imagine if every rare/exotic (including precursors) was bound to you (character or account) and if you got something you couldn’t use the only alternative was to vendor it for like 4s. If Anet were to dictate what the price of every item in the game was to be, this is the kind of thing that would happen.
The alternative is to keep playing the game the way you want to play, salvage unneeded gear for luck to increase MF, and when you get a desirable drop sell it to jump forward towards your goals.
You really screwed the pooch on this one guys. You’re going to have to really work to win back the good will you’ve lost with this fiasco.
Or you’ll have to downgrade your expectations for developer involvement on the forums.
It is nice to see that the predictions made by myself and others that a simple “we are reading this” confirmation would be considered insufficient turned out to be true, though.
Didn’t see that one coming! Here’s a tough one, see if you can predict how many cans of beer are in a six-pack.
The forum is generally for players to discuss the game, no one here has the authority to give you anything.
There is a link to Support at the top of the page. Click it and click “submit a request” at the top of the Support page to discuss the matter with a Customer Service agent.
You are responsible for securing your own computer. Anet will not restore items or characters lost to “evil little brother syndrome” – when someone is allowed to access your own computer and does something nasty to your stuff.
You do realize that this doesn’t make sense, right? Both a local or remote intrusion is the result of the player not having properly secured his computer, it’s not a matter of Anet security (I strongly hope so), so since it’s always the result of a wrong handling of security by the player itself, why making this difference?
I’m just repeating what has been said in this very forum dozens of times. I don’t make the rules.
I got a response to my 560926 ticket several hours after replying to this thread by somebody that clearly didn’t even read my support request.
I forgot my GW2 client alt-tabbed on my pc and, while away, I’ve been victim of a prank involving the deletion of my 5 (five) level 80 characters, with several pieces of ascended crafted items. My account wasn’t compromised by an “external”, just a “friend” thought it was funny to take advantage of my game logged in, while I forgot about it, to do something “funny” and delete all my chars.
You are responsible for securing your own computer. Anet will not restore items or characters lost to “evil little brother syndrome” – when someone is allowed to access your own computer and does something nasty to your stuff.
The response you got was correct, the account was not accessed by someone in a different location (“hacked”) so they cannot do what you ask.
Everyone who plays GW2 is a paying customer, CS doesn’t care how much you spent on gems. They have rules to follow, as do the players. In the future, make sure you are logged out before leaving the computer unattended.
Also, get better friends. Everyone I’ve ever hung out with knows you don’t go touching other people’s computers without their permission. It’s not funny, and if I ever did hang out with someone who would do that, it wasn’t for very long.
Except the spark shares an identical skin with a cheap exotic dagger that is 7ish gold.
Frankly I don’t buy this explanation because the shield is the only pre with a unique skin.
Incinerator is a unique skin. If you want to make Incinerator you need Spark.
When you cancel a buy order you get all the money back.
Ok, so say the devs double the rewards in PvE content. Rares and exotics drop twice as often, precursors drop twice as often, every monetary reward is doubled.
This doesn’t solve anything. More players have more money so the number of players competing for precursors and other desirable items increases many times over. But less desirable items are also more common and the prices drop. So those lucky/smart enough to have these desirable items collect more money than before, while the average player has more cash but less buying power as the price of those rare items increase to 4x, 5x, 10x what they are now.
You end up with more money, more “worthless junk,” and you still can’t buy that precursor.
The devs are a lot smarter than we are, and if I already know it’s a mistake, so do they. Saying the same thing over and over doesn’t make it true, it just makes people stop listening to you.
When can we expect to have the restricted gear unrestricted (with regards to salvaging) or some other option to get upgrades out of substandard gear?
If this is your core question, your topic title is misleading.
Besides this, the topic itself is something that would be discussed internally at Anet and not publicly on the forums. Unless the entire staff have been hiding out in a cabin in the wilderness for the last two weeks, they are aware by now that there are complaints about the new system. They need time to collect data and discuss solutions, then to test and implement the solutions. They won’t announce their plans until they are ready to announce their plans, no matter how many threads people create demanding it.
actually in some release dungeon designers said they dont decide/know what drops and that the items/rewards guys decide that. So where do the items/rewards guys look for feedback.
Generally speaking, they would be looking for constructive criticism within the context of a mature and reasonable discussion. Threads with titles like “getting rich off TP games” would be dismissed as pointless QQ and ignored by pretty much anyone with the authority to make the kinds of changes you’re asking for.
maybe rift need to charge people for server transfer. Ingenious solution.
It continues the rich tradition in these forums of offering solutions to problems that don’t exist by creating more problems.
Or the statistic dont’ matter. Since your opinion is only 5 people is complaining on the GW2 forum so it don’t matter. SO maybe the 0-1 person complaining there dont’ matter too.
maybe the other guy is right. Maybe GW2 players are more self entitled so people only complain here.
I cannot argue with your amazing insight and impervious logic. Like I said, ignorance is bliss…
Maybe people there are just dumb so they dont’ bother complaining. Just saying people “dont’ complain” there.
It’s the part where I ask you if people complain there, and from memory your answer is a maybe or something. Regardless of what happened, people don’t choose to complain there but choose to complain on the GW2 forum.
I’ve never seen an MMO forum where people aren’t complaining about something.
It has nothing to do with being dumb, the nature of the market in Rift means that most players do not have any information to compare… here, you always see what the highest bid/lowest sale price is for a given item on any server.
In Rift, oak logs could cost 20g on server A and 4g on server B. A player on server A doesn’t think it’s unusual because they always cost around 20g. If he knew other players could buy them for 4g, do you think he would be upset that he’s been giving away money to someone who buys them on server B then transfers to server A to sell them to him?
all good, just saying I dont’ think people are complaining about flipping there. At least I dont’ think nearly as much. Even though you clearly think flipping is much worse in that game compare to GW2.
I don’t think you ever really understood what I was talking about. Their system is completely different from GW2, and much easier to manipulate. Most people play on one server so they don’t know what the prices for items there are like compared to other servers.
You can transfer servers for free in Rift (unlike GW2, SWTOR, WoW…) so it’s incredibly easy to make a lot of money by buying items on one server for cheap then transferring to another server where you sell them for a huge markup. The nature of GW2’s TP makes this impossible because every server feeds into the same TP.
Ignorance is bliss – if you don’t know the oak logs you bought for 20g each came from a different server where the seller bought them for 4g each, you think you got a good deal. If you knew the seller was making 5x what he paid for them, you might be a little upset about that.
On the other hand, here people complain about flippers making a 20% profit from player impatience instead of a 400% profit in other games.
keep it going Tolunart, tell people GW2 got the best economy in the game.
And how other game sucks.
Thanx for giving me permission to continue expressing my opinion on a subject. That really means a lot to me.
i’d like you to point me to the rift forum where people are complaining about flipping there.
I haven’t played Rift in over a year. I have no idea what the current topics of conversation there might be. I have posted about my personal experiences there, I don’t care, not even a little bit, how you feel about it.
I have been playing SWTOR again recently, and chat there is flooded with “WTB… WTS…” spam, so you can tell the “Galactic Trade Network” is doing its job so efficiently… You’ll also be relieved to know that the best way to make money is to buy “packs” of items for real $ from the cash shop and sell the rare items to other players for millions of “credits.” Bypasses that whole, tiresome, playing the game thing.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
heck, I even see more people complaining about grinding in GW2 compare to korean grinder forums.
LOL yeah, “grindiest game evah!” OMG, I get a chance for loot from every enemy I tag, even if someone else tagged it first, and I can harvest any node even if someone else just harvested it themselves. You practically get rewarded just for being in the same area with dozens of other players beating up world bosses and you get loot just for running around the different maps.
The grind in this game is awful, it takes MINUTES to do anything…
keep it going Tolunart, tell people GW2 got the best economy in the game.
And how other game sucks.
Thanx for giving me permission to continue expressing my opinion on a subject. That really means a lot to me.
True, I’m not sure about trade-focused games like EVE but other MMOs I’ve played don’t have the dual buy/sell order system. In most games if you want to buy something you have to wait for someone to offer it for sale. There is no way to place a bid for something that isn’t on that server’s marketplace you can only stand around spamming “WTB blah blah offering blah” in chat.
This plus the multi-server nature of the TP makes GW2’s system far more efficient and active than similar systems in any other game I’ve played.
Further, in many games the best gear can only be obtained by raiding, while a large portion (usually a majority) of players don’t raid. This creates a have/have not divide in the player base where a large number of players will never have certain items unless they change the way they play the game in order to do so. In GW2, nearly everything can be bought or sold on the TP, trading the stuff you don’t want for stuff you do is very easy.
In other games, the best equipment can be bought from the cash shop, so those with money to spend on the game have the advantage. While you can buy gems and convert to gold, the actual items in the GW2 cash shop do not offer significant advantages over those items found in the game.
Personally, I prefer this system to what I see in other games, but since I don’t “pay to win” or engage in raiding I can see how players used to these things could be disappointed by GW2.
Does anyone bother transmuting those?
This is an interesting point of view. In any other industry it would be considered inappropriate to limit addressing one customer’s concerns because a completely different customer was a jerk.
Imagine going to a restaurant and having your food prepared incorrectly only to have the staff or even management brush your concerns off because a different customer was rude the day before.
They have a customer service staff dedicated to responding to problems with the game, but this happens privately and issues/solutions are not usually discussed in public.
It’s more like a small group of customers going to the restaurant’s Facebook page and demanding that the waitstaff post recipes, share the planned menu changes for the next year, and make changes such as serving an entirely different kind of food (a classic Italian restaurant offering hot dogs and cheeseburgers, for example), then loudly and constantly complaining when they don’t get their way.
There’s a difference between constructive criticism and noise.
The first one, I don’t think I’ve ever seen. No reasonable player would get upset about that.
I would find this reassuring if I ever saw reasonable players posting complaints.
You are right that wont satisfy anyone, but a “We are aware of the issue and working on possible solutions” will go a long way if a fix appears within half a year..
Of course, if a fix does not appear, people will be rightfully annoyed..
It won’t change a thing. Every few days the same people who are already complaining will be posting “Where’s that fix? You promised that it was coming!”
There is no positive side here, if they keep silent the same people will continue to complain because they are silent. If they post a response people will complain because the dev’s posted to Warriorbob.2424’s thread but not to Wizardtim.5323’s thread. And they’ll complain because the response in February said they were working on a fix and it’s almost May and it hasn’t been fixed yet. And they’ll complain because they shared details about future plans and some players don’t like it, so they start complaining before the plans are even officially announced.
So, either some people complain or a lot more people complain. Either way it won’t stop the complaints. “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Weapon set: 2 charges
Alternate weapon set: 2 charges
Armor set: 6 charges
For most players, 10 charges will do for a full “outfit” change, maybe with 1 left over if you have a two-handed weapon (buy 5 more and change just your armor a second time).
But yeah, I understand your point. That’s why hot dogs come in six-packs and hot dog buns come eight in a bag.
I don’t think anyone is asking Anet to reveal “trade secrets” or sensitive information about their game. Personally, I would like to see even just a “We are reading your comments (other than the ones they delete) and are examining possible solutions”
There are constant demands for sensitive information. Take the precursors, for example. Well over a year ago someone made an offhand comment about looking into the possibility of an alternate way to obtain a precursor, like some kind of “scavenger hunt.” Months later a plan was announced that was in development, then later it was mentioned that it might not be ready as soon as the devs would like, then it was announced recently that it was postponed because of large-scale changes to the game and its economy in the last patch. But nearly every week since it was first mentioned someone has demanded to know exactly what is happening, people still demand the “scavenger hunt” even though it was never confirmed to be the final version, just an idea, and complain because it’s not here yet.
As a major aspect of the game, competitors would benefit from knowing more about the system as it develops, and how close it is to completion. So it’s in Anet’s best interests to keep details of their plans confidential until they have a firm date for release. It has the potential to take customers from other games, so knowing that it will or will not appear this year would be a benefit to other companies when planning marketing campaigns, sales, bonus XP weekends, etc.
As for listening to feedback and making some kind of response, that’s what the CDI and Dolyak Express were created to address. The devs are taking time away from their other duties to specifically engage players on the forums, but it doesn’t matter because they do it when they choose and not upon demand. You don’t get to give Anet employees orders, no matter how nicely you wrap them up.
Deja vu all over again…
Honestly, I feel that this is one of their biggest issues. Let us compare this to a game with worst community, “League of Legends”. You ever check their forums? Those guys reply to a lot of those important posts the last time I check (several of months ago. I quit that game =b). If there is an issue, give us a nod. Say, “Hey guys! Thanks for the info. We truly appreciate it and are looking into it.” A strong relationship with your customer is key to success. just an FYI.
We do not have access to the memos, emails and staff meetings that take place within Anet, nor do we know how much control NCSoft exerts over the company they own. Everyone answers to someone, the devs cannot release information about the game without the permission of their bosses.
There are many competing games that are active or being developed. Releasing sensitive information about the progress of new systems (or the lack of progress) can harm Anet’s position in the market and provide competitors with ideas to compete against them. Posting too much information about what is happening behind the scenes can get a person disciplined, demoted or even fired.
It’s a wardrobe/transmutation issue and belongs in a thread set up by the devs for that subject.
You can throw a kitten about it if you want, but it won’t change anything. Numerous threads have been closed with a moderator note to the effect of “post your comments in the appropriate feedback thread.” No one but other players are going to respond here, and the devs responsible for collecting feedback about the issue probably won’t even visit this forum.
If you want to get snippy with people trying to save you time and effort by directing you to the proper thread for your feedback, go ahead. It doesn’t bother me. Look at the “watchwork pick” thread, people have been demanding responses from devs about their pet peeves from launch and it just doesn’t work like that. The devs do not answer to any of us, personally. They announce things when they decide to announce them, not when we demand it.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
I asked a simple direct question unmuddied by other discussion for the dev’s to answer. This was the point of this thread.
Calling out a specific employee is against the rules – calling out the Anet devs in general almost never gets a response. It’s like hanging a giant neon sign on the post that says “I’m really kittened off and want someone to yell at.” People in such a state are not usually offering constructive criticism or interested in polite discussion. You may be an exception but if the devs never read the message they won’t know that.
Also, you cannot control who posts on the forums. This is a place for players to talk to each other, first and foremost, and the vast majority of responses are from other players. Devs rarely post in any thread that they haven’t created themselves.
They already have a thread dedicated to collecting feedback about this issue. Other threads about the same issue will generally be ignored, closed, or merged.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
The first time I used the new 2nd sigil slot, I was careful to make sure that I knew where the sigil was going and I saw that I had to select the empty slot to avoid overwriting the first sigil. It should not do this but it’s a new function in the game and we all know that things don’t always work perfectly at first.
I also made it a point to double check transmutes under the old system, where you choose which skin, stats and upgrade to keep. It saved me many “oh kitten!” moments when just clicking through everything as quickly as possible would have been a horrible mistake.
I’m sure you can post in the “tickets for review” thread or update your ticket with a clearer explanation that it was your first time using the new slot system and you didn’t know what you were doing.
Do not, however, point out how much money you spent on the game in an attempt to get special treatment. The CS agent doesn’t care.
Well it could be worse, you could have gotten a precursor drop but one of the crappy ones that don’t sell for much on the TP and is a weapon type you’ll never use.
When you say crappy you’re still talking about the cheapest ones which are still like 30gold (correct me if I’m wrong because it’s been awhile since I checked).
My best drop ever has been Death wish. I was giddy like you wouldn’t believe from getting that thing and from headstart to now that has been the best. So, I’d even take the crappy ones if one dropped. I would make it work somehow on an alt if I had to.
That would be like complaining that you won the Powerball lottery jackpot – because the prize was “only” $50 million instead of $200 million.
Well after reading this threat i decided to give up on my legendary but on a weird whim i decided to buy 4 lvl 75 exotic swords off the TP about 2-3 gold each and mystic them and what do you know? on my very first try i got the zap lol
Precursors are like girlfriends, the harder you try to get one, the more frustrated you get. When you stop looking, one just falls into your lap.
The least they can do is tell me that they just can’t do it. But they didn’t do that.
.
On the other hand, there has been an increase in reports of hacked accounts. Do you think a CS agent should put aside an investigation or restoration of a compromised account to dash off a quick note saying “sorry, we can’t do that.” Not saying that CS would ignore you, but there are thousands of more serious situations being taken care of right now.
I really doubt that CS agents can reprogram the game on a whim. They have tools to do some things, yes, but only what is programmed for them and only within the guidelines given to them by their supervisors. They cannot change the cooldown period on server transfers, for example, no matter how many people ask them to.
They are flooded with requests relating to issues from the big patch earlier this month, they don’t separate the easy requests from the hard. Each is handled when it’s handled. So what is so terrible about waiting a week to create your guild masterpiece? I created one guild, a year and a half ago, to serve as personal storage for my wife and I, and never felt the need for anything more.
My cynical opinion is that the very smart players fooled everyone else and told them to start buying dyes because its going to be such a great investment, meanwhile they are dumping their dyes while the prices were climbing.
People who did that, likely got rich. People who followed like lemmings and bought dyes at inflated prices thinking they would go up even higher after the patch, got suckered.
Buying a stock (or in this case a commodity, I guess) because a random stranger says it’s a sure thing is one of the best ways to lose money.
