Guild Wars 2

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth and traits and they need condition duration to maximize their damage. The only differense is, they get condition duration with runes and not with armor stats, which could be a balance issue, but they also need survivability, to see the effect of their conditions.

They dont do more damage, maybe against players with 3k+ armor or if you compare their damage with bunker builds.

And dont try to tell me, that you can dodge direct damage, but you cant dodge condition damage, that is not true. Learn how condition work and you will see, they are fine.

actually condition build requires two stats at the moment, they also need precision. But you are right, move the condition duration from runes and sigils to armor would make playing a condition build more complex and to maximize the damage they have to choose, either go for condi duration or take defense, to see the impact of the conditions.

Conditions are a form of damage, they are applied like direct damage, but instead of dealing one huge hit it is divided into several smaller ones. (DoT) They have to advantage to ignore armor, but they can be dodged, blocked, missed, … like direct damage and additionally be cleansed. In average they deal less damage then direct damage builds, but with the current bunker meta, they appear strong.

There has nothing to be fixed, just think about them as direct damage with a delay.

Leuca.5732:

Stat point investment vs frequency of application vs potential damage per successful hit.

Condition damage is still superior. A few anti condi wars with stunlocks don’t really change that.

Stat point investment: Condition builds also need 3 stats to maximize their damage. Condi dmg, duration and precision and If you want to see you conditions do their job, then you also need toughness and vita.

Frequency of application: No, there is no difference between hitting someone with direct dmg or with condition damage. It could be that the attack speed of some weapons should be tweaked (I dont think so). But then it’s some skills and not conditions in general.

Potential damage per hit: Here we should differentiate how much armor the targets has. I think there should be a sweat spot around 2,6k armor when conditions should start to deal more damage than direct damage. But right now, I think conditions deal less damage vs those targets.

There are some skills that are capable to deal more then 15k damage (over 20+ seconds), but there are direct damage skills that can do this (instant), too.

We can do the math to find this sweat spot, but which skills are comparable?

What conditions are you talking about?

Damage conditions, support or controll condtitions or both?
Or specific builds?

Learn how conditions work, if they are on you, then you havent dodged earlier thats the whole point. If you have conditions on you, that will kill you if you dodge or not, then you would allready be killed by a direct damage build, dealing the same damage per atack.

Dee Jay.2460:

Rednik.3809:

tarcheg.4872:

At least the player with the account Mammoth.1975 thinks so:

Mammoth.1975:

[…] peak power damage > peak condition damage, do you want to compare averages now? Because average power damage is also > average condition damage.

I’m actually very sure of the opposite and we had a very detailed discussion in another thread in which also the op addressed how to deal with the said problem (so read if further more interested):
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Condition-analysis-and-a-few-options/first#post3056516

But since I’m not without fail I just wanted to ask the rest of the community which didn’t bother to read the whole thread of their opinion. What do you think? What are your experiences? Does power dmg really more dmg than cond dmg under the premise that the conds are NOT CLEANSED???

Power dmg can do more damage in shorter timeframe. But power damage require constant contact with target – target can dodge, use LOS, break distance, etc.
Conditions can be used as “fire and forget”, you pull em out and now YOU can dodge, run, heal, whatever, while your target is melting.

Exactly, that’ the decisive difference between the two.

I can deal 10.000 Power damage every 3 seconds in PvE. You’d need to maintain 30 Bleed stacks by yourself (assuming they all tick for 120) to match that damage.

But they require a constant target up-time while often also putting the damage-dealer at great risk.

Conditions on the other hand deal damage regardless of your actions and often have other beneficial effects. It’s also much easier to spread them.

They also ignore dodges, Protection and other mitigating abilities and are mostly instant-cast and not telegraphed. That’s why Conditions are so much more powerful in PvP than PvE.

The biggest Weakness of Conditions is their low single-target cap, which too doesn’t factor in to PvP much. On the other hand they can be cleansed which makes single Conditions easy to deal with, but Condition bombs very dangerous.

Lol, you have no clue how conditions work. If you dodge an condition atack, than there is no condition applied -> you take less damage. That the condition on you still deal their damage is normal, thats why its called DoT.

Same thing with invulnerability, blocks, blinds, los,…. everything that let atacks miss their target/deal 0 damage.

The only thing that doesnt effect conditions is protection, but the counterpart here is -%condition duration and cleanse

There is no magic behind condition damage, the only thing is, that people dont understand how they work.

sorrow.2364:

NevirSayDie.6235:

cut

Bonus burst damage and bonus condition damage are two different beasts.

Condition damage bonus stacks up with the other conditions and works as a cover to them too. That means that if you proc Sigil of Fire, it doesn’t mean that the other attacks are most likely landing.

Condition damage doesn’t require active partecipation to the player in order to archieve the maximum damage output. Once the burning procs once, you can forget about it. You can be CCed, blinded, dodging or play defensively if needed and still dealing damage.

Conditions requires only condition damage as stat, while burst needs power, precision and critical damage to be effective, meaning that burst profession will be most likely more glassy and so attacking to keep the proc-rate high is more risky.

In particular, Sigil of Fire is more effective on the hypothetical situation that you manage to land it on multiple enemies. Dhuumfire and IR deals way higher single target damage.

A more proper comparison with Sigil of Fire would be Sigil of Earth, not Dhuumfire nor IR.

I felt of my chair laughing about the thing you wrote.

Your arguments absolutly make no sense. They are both on crit effects, they deal both bonus damage. To deal this damage I have to land an critical hit. The diference is, one makes his damage instant, the other one over 4 seconds and can be cleansed or blocked by another burn.

That you think conditions are fire and forget, you should be banned from every discussion of balancing conditions. You have no idea of how conditions work. You can compare them with an direct damage atack, but with two differences:

• they ignore thoughness
• they deal their damage over time so there is a delay

got it?

I could start with some examples of an auto atack of necro scepter that deals about 1-2k (3-4 with dhuumfire) dmg, but I dont think you would understand the math.

sorrow.2364:

I wonder why Necromancers were greatly underused before the Dhuumfire introduction even if Terror dealt way more damage as it is doing now.

because they did too low damage, compared to any other class.

Necromancer, along with burning, have fear, poison, bleeding, chill, weakness, cripple and torment. The chances you’re cleansing burning are fairly low.

Its the last condition that is applied, that is cleansed first, so if you wait 3 seconds and cleanse then, your fault. It is unimportant which build can apply how many conditions, what counts is, that they can be cleansed, and a cleansed condition means less effect.

Spirit Rangers and Engineers, on the other hand, can reapply burning on a regular basis because of spirit procs and bomb. Play some PvP and check which is the most damaging conditions in death briefing.
We aren’t talking about Necromancers only, in case you didn’t know that.

There will always be a condition dealing the most damage, if we remove one, another will deal the most damage, should we remove this too? Bleed has the potential to deal the most damage, because everyone can apply it with ease and it stacks up to 25 times, not in duration like the rest.

I can repeat myself, we can talk about specific skills and discuss if they are unbalanced but not about “remove the strongest condition out of the game” (but Im pretty sure you didnt said/meant that either).

get clear what you want to adress with your thread, it doesnt matter what people are saying, everything is wrong in your oppinion unless they dont write things like “+1, totaly true”. There is no red line in any of your posts in this thread.
You say, that the problem of conditions is burning name two exapmles and call them broken, later they arent anymore, its something completely different (spirit ranger). If we try to compare conditions with direct damage, we aren’t allowed to, because its not what you want to hear.
If someone wants to explain mistakes in your theory, they dont understand the problem, I think you dont either.

Again, what do you want to address with your post? because it cant be burning.

@sorrow: so dhummfire instandkilled everyone, it wasnt terror (fear) that made necros OP.

And dont try to tell me, that a skill with 40% uptime of burning can reapply burning, right after it is cleansed. Even with 80% this is impossible.

If you want a game, where on every single Cap-Point we have a bunker that can deal with 2 and more DPS players and can’t be countered by conditions (because they don’t exist in this scenario). How interesting this game will be?

I dont know, what this condition removal thing should show me. Its a fact, that we have condition remove, but no direct damage remove. Every other skill we have against direct damage (dodge, block, invulnerability,blind,…..) also stops condition damage.

sorrow.2364:

Read my previous post.

Dhuumfire has already been nerfed and now it is nearly useless. It should have never been exsisted. I wanted just to analyze why Dhuumfire (when it was 4s) made Necro so OP.

The only difference between 7k burn and 7k eviscerate is that I can dodge the 7k eviscerate, I can’t dodge the 7k burn application. Also, you seem to be convinced that once you apply burning, there are no other cover conditions applied and as soon as you use your condition cleansing, burning is cleansed first. Well, that’s not the case.

First you say, we are all talking off topic and should read post #1 and now your last post, saying something completly different?

Dhuumfire was nerfed, but is the most broken mechanik that you point at in your first post and in the end, its UP? i mean what are you talking about?

reorder your thoughts and come back, this makes absolutly no sence at all.

And by the way, it doesnt matter if burning isnt cleansed first, it can be cleansed, that counts. (I dont know the exact order right now but what does more damage? 8+ bleeds or burning?)

@shimmerles: Ofcourse its important, how much I have to pay for this trait and what it rewards me. Because its pushing me into a playstile of build.

The damage you take from burning, doesnt mean, that it is one skill/trait that aplies burning or bleed. If they name every atack “swing you sword” and “swing it again”, than that would be number 1 and 2. You cant say, because of this order, that condition A is too strong, it is important, how much you paid for this and how it was applied.

secondly, if you play against a condition build and his auto attack would be number one, than there would be something wrong with this game. Complaining about a condition build dealing condition damage, made my day.

sorrow.2364:

Lopez.7369:

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

You dont know what you are talking about, Dhuumfire has an uptime of 2 second every 10 seconds, thats 20% with condition duration, you get up to 4s = 40%. And these uptime is even lower, because you have to crit right after the iCD of 10 sec is over. <40% is not even close to permanent. grandmaster trait

Incendiary Powder on the other hand, has an uptime of 40-80% which is discuss able for an adept trait

Rangers sun spirit need a grandmaster trait to be effective (thats min. 200 less condi dmg or 20% less duration) and they can be killed ~10k live with trait. maybe the burning it applies lasts too long, but again, this is discussable.

But conditions and burning arent too strong. They are fine and can be cleansed, so where is the problem?

We can discuss that some skills need to be rebalanced or numbers tweaked. But stop this stupid risk/reward and conditions are too stong bs.

What is the problem with a 7k burn over 10seconds compared to a warrior F1 which hits you for the same amount instant? The big difference is, that i have <1sec vs 10sec time to react on that damage.

Knote.2904:

whyme.3281:

so noone is casting those condition spells? cool, i think I’m doing something wrong then.

Even with Dhuumfire I need to land a critical hit to proc it. Thats obvious no input.

It’s ok, you don’t need to understand it, just the devs do.

they wont understand it either.

you are talking about risk/reward with those skills.
Axe F1 i need to be in a range of 300 with min. 10 adrenalin and then this is a 7k+ dmg burst (risk? its a melee weapon)
100 Blades: risk: standing still, reward: 10k+ dmg
and so on

for conditions its the same:
dhuumfire need to proc, so i need a crit, for this i need to hit my enemy and for this i need to stay in range. And how much damage do i get from dhuumfire? ~2k every 10+ seconds. where is my reward?
Pin down, deals a huge amount of damage over 20 seconds where is the risk you will ask? the cleanse that should be in every build?
Blood is power: risk: selfbleed and cleanse its a 30second bleed and the reward is 10stacks might and 2 long bleeds.
Engi poison granade: risk: enemy walks one step to the left + cleanse reward: up to 50sec poison if the enemy is stupid enough to stand still for 5 sec.
and so on….

@Ezrael: I wrote this in an other thread to you, dont play a guardian, if you like to deal ranged damage. And fights are not pressing 1 at your keyboard.

so noone is casting those condition spells? cool, i think I’m doing something wrong then.

Even with Dhuumfire I need to land a critical hit to proc it. Thats obvious no input.

its 15 seconds, blowtorch has an CD of 15s and to be effective, the engineer need to be in an melee range <200.

Don’t let him get close or dodge if he gets close problem solved.

And do you want to tell me, that you run into an enemy with 100% health and every skill on CD? There are alot of skills and traits to remove conditions.

And if you are not able to build that way, voila there is the counter-build of yours

Knote.2904:

whyme.3281:

Knote.2904:

I could be on the other side of the map, and someone hits my mark and loses half their health to burn + a little bleed or poison.

But then maybe the skill is buggy? If it has no maximum range?

On the other hand, why do you run into this mark? its a huge red circle on the floor.

Every skill that is on the other side of the map is less damage on the side of the necro

I cant see any problem here with condition damage.

Again you people are missing the point entirely.

It’s not about someone running into an obvious mark.

It’s that I can proc a massive amount of dmg with little thought.

I’m having a jackie chan moment here.

Warrior Axe F1, Kill shot, 100-blades, Lighning hammer, FGS,… want to hear more?

and btw, they cant be cleansed, after half damage is done

Master of Timespace.2548:

Mammoth.1975:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.

Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.

Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.

Is this a problem with conditions dealing too much damage, or do the condition builds get their third stat (condi duration from somewhere else and too easy). On the other hand, conditions dont burst, they need time to show their potential, so some defense is needed

tarcheg.4872:

Mammoth.1975:

tarcheg.4872:

On the other side people DO die from getting hit by a pin down or a blowtorch+poison dart etc…

Then ‘people’ need to stop sucking and cleanse. Unless by ‘people’ you mean ‘golems’.

So we finally have reached the point were we make “everyone else should stop sucking” arguments. Took some time for you put you finally made it.

well, your arguments dont make any sense at all.

You allways name 3 skills, maybe these are to strong, but again for this we have condition remove, something we dont have against direct damage.

And if you die because of a 20second burn slowly lowering your healthbar, and you are not able to stop the burn, then you deserve it to die.

Knote.2904:

I could be on the other side of the map, and someone hits my mark and loses half their health to burn + a little bleed or poison.

But then maybe the skill is buggy? If it has no maximum range?

On the other hand, why do you run into this mark? its a huge red circle on the floor.

Every skill that is on the other side of the map is less damage on the side of the necro

I cant see any problem here with condition damage.

Chaith.8256:

Man, you guys are totally letting Sun Spirit fall under the radar.

Sun Spirit is responsible for like, 3 times the burning procs than Incendiary Powder and Dhuumfire combined.

Look at this video that Ostricheggs posted a bit over 2 weeks ago:

http://www.twitch.tv/ostricheggs/c/3023189

Basically, you see a Ranger who’s in a comatose state (full stunlock), and then you keel over and die after taking 7,645 in burning (among other things, which I’m not discussing now) just for the Sun Spirit A.I existing nearby and MORE A.I proccing it.

12k hp ele without stability or block, wonders why he dies to a ranger?

stability, focus the spirits, then the ranger and this ranger is dead. (maybe a condi remove after the spirits are dead) this build is counterable, but dont wonder why you can die without defense in seconds. btw the ranger was nearly dead too.

Ezrael.6859:

For a Condition build you need Condition Damage and Condition Duration.

1. Learn the mechanics you also need precision. Try your test with carrion amulet and see how much bleeds you apply with only 18% crit chance
2. ever thought that a guardian isn’t the dmg class number one?

• Guardian is the class with the lowest ranged damage?
• Take a ranger or thief for example they both only need 2 traitlines for power, preci and crit dmg, so berserker and direct dmg is op too…

1. Have a look at the traits, you forgot all those +10% dmg here and +20% dmg there traits, that don’t effect conditiondamage.

I mean its true, there is no stat combination like berserker, with condi dmg, preci and condi duration, so they have to use defensive stats, but this is no problem of conditions.

garethh.3518:

Conditions can be balanced as is.
Conditions aren’t super OP as is.
Conditions create BAD GAMEPLAY as is.

Balance is worthless if it’s built on crap.
(cheese, CC-locks, mindless condi spam, low teamwork, exc.)

Yes, they can be balanced, if they are balance, they aren’t OP (and they aren’t OP right now, they are weaker than direct damage in my oppinion [do less damage, can be prevented easier]).

And if they are balanced, they don’t create a bad gameplay, they offer a more complex one and need the players to adept to this mechanic.
I don’t understand, why you start with CC again, we are talking about condition damage -> means damage conditions -> bleed, burn, poison, torment, (fear) and confusion.

without condition damage, you can build the perfect bunker with high toughness, high healingpower and alot of blinds, block, invulnerability,…. with condition damage, you also need condi removes and vitality

@ Ezrael: If you play sPVP like this (pressing 1), i think i found your Problem. try using 2-0

FYI: Warrior only #1 with axe needs 10 seconds to kill the golem

E again: coming online to call me a simpleton is no base for a discussion. I’m willing to discuss this, but not this way. (and now block me, very childish)

@garethh and the rest thinkin conditions are OP: They arent, the only difference is you have to react at the point when they are applied, not when you are dead.

Try using your healing skill at 50% health instead of 25%
Use your Condiremove earlier
Dodge the first attacks
Use unvulnerability at 75% instead of 20%
…

• gamemodes (GvG, capture the flag, King of the hill, payload/dolyak (TF2), 5v5v5v5, Moba,….)
• Matchmaking
• class balance and build variaty (not only buff everthing, also nerf some builds)

• outmanned buff (maybe swap with bloodlust)
• commander usability

PvE:

• Condition damage Cap (making condition builds viable in parties)
• Class balance ( balance between access to boons, defense and overall damage)
• RNG (loot luck of some people is to good to be true, compared to others)

@Ezreal: To compensate this range issue, use greatsword 3 and 5 to close the gap between your enemy.

If you dodge every third attack of the necro, you dont get poisoned or “block” 2 bleeds, for example. In the end, you blocked 1-2k dmg.

And try the same thing on the small golem and the conditionbuild will be alot slower

Kentrey.3251:

And then is the balance for condition clears next to conduction application which really should be close to even with applications being a little higher. But it isn’t conditions clears (most of them) are on 45 – 60 sec CDs.
Which is added to the fact that you can’t outrun Condis that are applied, or invlu because if they are on you they still tick, not to mention a lot of them (such as traps, and marks) are unblockable. leaving dodging what once every 10 secs?

But lets take an direct damage attack as example that deals the same damage than the DoTs would deal. At the point you run around the corner with Dots on you (that would kill you), you would already be dead in front of the corner with direct damage hiting you.

Conditions only need some other playstile to counter them. Its true, that you dont see them like 100blades, but on the other hand, a dodge is a dodge and you dont have to wonder why you die to them, with full endurance. On the other hand you have to trigger your invulnerability earlier, because you dont get new conditions, but those that are still on you deal damage. An early block saves your kitten later in the fight. The trick of conditions is the delay in the mechanic. People dont see thos great numbers until its too late.

I think we should differentiate attack animations and the damage of conditions, maybe some of the skills need some visual rework to show that they are stronger. But this doesnt mean that conditions are too strong.

Mesket.5728:

The only possible fix I can see (and this is for PVE since on PVP conditions are strong enough):

If target max stack of condition was reached
then apply (X, could be 3/4 or something similar) damage as direct damage.

This will let condition players to keep damaging the boss even when max stacks were applied. Not applying full damage is because I assume condition damage is stronger because it is spread over time and to avoid players speculating on whether apply their conditions now or later when the boss is full on stacks.

This is no sollution.
People are playing condition builds to do their damage over time and allways the same amount of damage to every enemy.

With your suggestion, every condition build would be played like a direct damage build.

@Ezrael: I cant see why you have a problem with conditions. I think you have no idea, what a Dot is, or conditions in general.

One example:
We have a Warrior hitting you with 2k every second, what can you do to prevent this? Block, dodge, heal, run away, invunerability….
Now we have a Condition-build, that puts bleed on you. What can you do to prevent this? Block (im not sure here), dodge, heal, run away,invunerability ….. and aditionaly you can remove these conditions with a lot of skills.

At the end, its both damage. And now comes the big secret, you dont have to wonder, why died to 10+ bleeds, you have to dodge those attack that apply bleeds and stop wondering, why you die ten seconds later.

Lets take an autoatack that deals 500dmg and applies a 5second bleed with 200 dmg/sec that hits you every second. In the end, thats only 1,5k dmg per hit so where is the problem?
In the end, you have 2 possibilities to counter this. Prevent it or do more damage than your foe. No difference to direct damage.

Your suggestions to change DoTs to burst skills….. what?

And I cant see any problem with conditions/dots in e-sport, as long as they are balanced.

One last advice, inform yourself about conditions and damage over time

Who needs to know how long Condition X of player Y lasts and how much damage that condition does?

No one, the only thing that is important, how much stacks are on the enemy how much hp the enemy has and how long the conditions last on that enemy.

No client is interested in how much damage other players do, the important thing is the health the enemy has.

Ellisande.5218:

whyme.3281:

Olba.5376:

whyme.3281:

Justdeifyme.9387:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Just get rid of the kittening cap. It’s ridiculous and can’t be taken serious. Really, I mean REALLY!?!?

Technical Limitations.

maybe, but why is it then possible for 100 Conditionplayers to damage 100 different mobs on the same map, but ony stack 25 bleed on one boss mob?

Because you don’t need to send detailed data from those 100 mobs to every one of those 100 players. Whereas if you’re attacking the same mob, you’re required to send the same data (which updates in real time, btw) to all participants. Which can be any number from 1 to … map cap.

But you need to send the hp of the mobs to everyone near and I think also the bleedings on them etc. (At least when they are selected). And where is the difference in sending enemy X has 25 bleed of enemy X has 600 bleeds? Its just a different number

@Warcry: There are damageconditions, support conditions

The problem is that the game can’t send back that the mob has a 25 stack of bleed, it sends back all the information on each of the separate 25 bleeds because each bleed does different damage per tick, ticks at different rates, expires at different times and has different times remaining.

It only send back the damage your bleed do, and one player is not able to apply 600 bleeds (only with epidemic, but that needs some limitations). for the rest you only get telled, how many are on your enemie, who applied the last (or first im not sure right now) one, how long this last and how much hp your enemies has left. The only difference would be that a greater number is send 600 instead of maximum 25.

The rest is the same data that would be send to 100 players attacking 100 different enemies.

conditions are not bursty, the do a constant damage over time. When a DPS class hits you with 5k damage and more that is a burst.

Condition damage isn’t to high and the cap needs to be removed completely.

Tracker.6483:

Change max stacks to 15 in pvp only.

Boom. Issue fixed.

No, that would make it even worth, because then no one will play condition builds any more. 15 stacks isn’t even enough for one build.

Greek.4396:

whyme.3281:

If they remove dhuumfire we are where we started, well no necros will be even worth, because they still have nerved fear/terror. The buff was needed for necros, because every other class did more Conditiondamage before the patch and I think warrior is still stronger when you want to apply conditions. They only lack of epedemic to spread them.

I think the main problem is, that many people don’t know what a condition remove is.

They buffed their deathshroud, spectral skills and gave torment, Necros will never be worse then their previous state. They never needed burning, their condi was always good.

Torment is only something like an additional bleed, not really game changing.

They are still worse then condi warriors. And they needed burning, because they are used to be the condition class in the game, so they need the condition with the highest damage. Without dhoomfire the damage output was to low.

If they remove dhuumfire we are where we started, well no necros will be even worth, because they still have nerved fear/terror. The buff was needed for necros, because every other class did more Conditiondamage before the patch and I think warrior is still stronger when you want to apply conditions. They only lack of epedemic to spread them.

I think the main problem is, that many people don’t know what a condition remove is.

Olba.5376:

whyme.3281:

Justdeifyme.9387:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Just get rid of the kittening cap. It’s ridiculous and can’t be taken serious. Really, I mean REALLY!?!?

Technical Limitations.

maybe, but why is it then possible for 100 Conditionplayers to damage 100 different mobs on the same map, but ony stack 25 bleed on one boss mob?

Because you don’t need to send detailed data from those 100 mobs to every one of those 100 players. Whereas if you’re attacking the same mob, you’re required to send the same data (which updates in real time, btw) to all participants. Which can be any number from 1 to … map cap.

But you need to send the hp of the mobs to everyone near and I think also the bleedings on them etc. (At least when they are selected). And where is the difference in sending enemy X has 25 bleed of enemy X has 600 bleeds? Its just a different number

@Warcry: There are damageconditions, support conditions

Warcry.1596:

Now, in general PvE, in giant world bosses like Tequatl, having no cap would allow 600+ Bleeds… and 600+ Vulnerability, think how broken that is. I may be slightly exaggerating, but think about what you’re asking for

Who is talking about Vulnerability?

Justdeifyme.9387:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Just get rid of the kittening cap. It’s ridiculous and can’t be taken serious. Really, I mean REALLY!?!?

Technical Limitations.

maybe, but why is it then possible for 100 Conditionplayers to damage 100 different mobs on the same map, but ony stack 25 bleed on one boss mob?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So to start with what i am suggesting we do is that we have a list of topics for each category, so for example:

PVE
1:Ascended Gear
2:Raiding
3: RNG
4: Roleplaying

For global issues such as bugs, balance etc we can open up more threads but lets just start with 3. Note my list above is just an example. So what i am asking you guys and gals to think about is how do you want to go about choosing the list for WvW, PVE, and PVP

Chris

In my oppinion, Conditiondamage cap and RNG are the most frustrating parts in PVE and should be adressed first.

Then raiding and Acsended Gear

I would like to see some feedback on special topics, popping up every few days, for example Conditiondamage cap or range pets,….

There are nice suggestions and a few official words would be nice.

Epic.3950:

holy kittening boy. Conditions are plenty OP in WVW and pvp. why not stick to where they work instead of expecting them to be better than power builds in every single aspect of the game. there is a reason zerker deals more damage. its called conditions are 1 stat zerker takes 3. now kitten and go stack some more defense and zerg around for 5 hours.

Wrong,

• Conditiondamage is equal to power,
• Precision + Sigil/traits is equal to precision on a Power build
• Condition duration is equal to Critdmg.

The only difference is there is no set, that give Con dmg, prec, cond durration. That would be the equivalent to berserker gear. Therefore we get high durration out of runes, which makes conditionsbuilds strong, because they can choose a defensive stat.

I have a Warrior, but have you ever played a Ranger with ghosts?

They are dead in PvE, dead in WvW and can be killed in PvP. The only thing that makes them strong in PvP is the ulti ghost, that can ress the Ranger, because of his slow animation and I’m not sure if this is intended.

The Ghosts have no 100% Uptime with their Bonus, they only have 35% and need a Trait for 70% chance, that they can follow you, the Ranger needs a Grandmaster Trait.
And you want, 100% Uptime, Follow you arround and undestroyable Buffs for free? No Traits, only one utility Slot per banner, are you kidding?

They are too good in PvE and PVP, because they cant be destroyed, compared to Ranger ghosts they are OP.

There are invisible bags to prevent selling and inventory management against salvaging

Lokki.1092:

This IMHO is the best part about sPvP. the team builds are varied generally 1-3 bunkers, 1-2 support, and 1-2 condition/direct damage builds. Almost no spec is needed, No class is mandatory, but everyone has a role and multiple builds are good. This is what we need in PvE. The problem (as you seem to know) is that in PvE there is no need for a bunker so there is no need for support, there is also no need for a condition spec beyond the need for damage. So if the condition spec cannot deal the damage then GTFO. Which is sad.

Thats right, the problem here is the poor enemy/boss design. Why is there no boss, with high toughness and low health? So for example a berserker player would hit for 400 instead of 4k and conditions would be more effective.

No, the strong bosses are designed as structures, that cant bleed…

Here is a good list of boss suggestions, that would add a diversity to PvE fights.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Endgame-PvE-Difficulty-comes-down-to-dodging/first

But for more buildvariaty in PvE there are more problems than the stack-limit on conditions.

Conditionbuilds:

• A Remove of the stack-limits is needed, to make them viable.
• Make all these 10% more damage traits also effect condition damage, it makes no sence, why conditions dont get a benefit, if I manage to stay over 90% life for example.
• optinally a offensive stat combination like berserker with condidmg, precision and condi-duration would be nice.

Support:

• Boonduration stat is useless until every skill has a ~50% uptime on the boons it provides, a reduction in boon duration is needed to make supports or atleast the stat viable
• A stat that increases the strength of boons, for example might giving 20-40 power with a boonpower stat (or maybe use boonduration for it).
  Right now, why should i take someone who could give me 30 stacks might but cant deal damage when i can get a warrior, that can provide 15 in full berserker gear and deals a lot more damage?

Tank/Control:

• A Tank could be fine in PvE if we couldnt dodge every signle attack of the bosses in full damage gear.
  _ I know this is part of the combat system and I like it, but why dont bosses attack faster with smaller hits? _
• For Control defiant needs to bee removed and like unl34shed said other mechanics need to be implemented to prevent a stunlock (rage mode)
• I wouldnt touch unshakeable and some imunes because bosses are stronger

And for all those skeptics, this changes wouldnt mean that dungeons cant be done with a group of full berserker warriors, but it would make it more chalanging for those groups but they would be still faster than a nonberserker group (except there is a high toughness low hp boss).

iniside.4736:

The problem with conditions is that while concept is cool, they just haven’t predicted how big perfomance impact it would have on servers.

that’s the question. Why is there a cap of 25 bleed on one target, but what if there is a overflow full of condition clases, everyone atacking different enemies, would the server crash? I dont think so.

The other question is, why is condition damage calculated every single pulse? If you get might, all your conditions, that are on your enemie get stronger, why? This is serverload, that nobody needs. An it doesnt make any sence, that your bleed allready on your enemie get stronger, if you get might.

Im not sure if this is a bug or not, but is it intended, that clockheart is easier to melee than to kill at range. because he dont use all of his skills (the stong ones) if the party is melee.

Fractals are events in the past, why not bring old dungeons like Molten Facility back as a fractal.

Maybe some things needs to be shorted, like the drilling part at the beginning of the Molten Facility.

If I remember correctly, all these dungeons could be finished in under 20 Minutes, so they would fit to the average time needed to complete fractals.

Colesy you are talking about maximizing DPS. But where is the defense part? If you run in a full offensive group you dont need any or only a small amount of defensive support (stun, protection, regeneration, slow, blind,……) the only required thing is a dodge at the right time and pure damage.

I would say berserker gear is ok, if the content would get more chalanging for beeing faster. but instead your are faster, kill bosses before they can react/become dangerous making the dungeon even easier.

Defensive gear on the other hand, makes fights only harder most of the time, because they are 3-5 times longer. But you get no benefit for choosing defensive stats. You still take a lot of damage, maybe you survive one or two hits more, but thats it. It is not noticable compared to the damage boost you get from full zerker gear.

Support stats like healingpower or boon duration are also useless, because the boon duration without traits/stats is high enough, that most skills have a 50% uptime, except ultis. Why should I take boon duration, if my team has a 100% uptime of 25 might stacks and fury. Or conditionduration on a boss with 100% 25 vulnerability….