Is this necro not dodging to be getting smacked around by all these CCs? .5 seconds of no stability shouldnt matter if you toss it down into a dodge tbh.
Death shrould 3 -> Pop out of Shroud -> Toss down a well if needed. Dont be the idiot that throws down all 3 wells when you can use them sparingly.
Why wouldn’t they be able to be cast? What scenario are we even in cause it sounds like your describing a necro getting beat upon by multiple players.
Your talking to Drarnor like he doesn’t know the class. I guarantee he knows the class way way better than you. The amount of people who come on the forum and try to give advice to players who understand the classes being discussed way better than them is ridiculous.
To answer your first question, yes the necro is not dodging because they have no way to get extra endurance like every single other class (short of burning two utilities). Also, wells are kind of overrated. Anyone decent will port, or walk out of them. If you lead with a fear or immobilize it won’t matter that much, other classes have a lot of ways to deal with immobilize or fear into a well.
In a team fight, necros are very rarely able to cast freely, and your playing bad people if your allowed to cast freely in any size fight. Even 2 vs 2 your gonna get focused first by good players. CC chains hurt necros more than any other class in the game. No stability, no movement skills, two very limited port options, no blocks, no invulns, no extra endurance, low armor, very little passive defense, and terrible healing make dealing with substantial amounts of cc impossible.
The only thing necros have to deal with cc chains are their two stunbreaks, which have relatively high cooldowns, and DS. DS is a finite resource for damage, doesn’t prevent any cc, and has no condition removal. Did I mention you also don’t start with any LF to access it, and have to kill someone or actually land skills to get any Life force. Imagine if an ele couldn’t switch out of fire attunement until they landed drake’s breath, and then could only stay in that other attunement for a few seconds before being put back in fire, and then that all of their damage mitigation was in water attunement. That’s what this game is like for necros. Far too much work is required to get access to DS, and necros sacrifice far too much for it. The trait lines are poor, the weapons are poor (a few good individual skills but every weaponset has a bad skill), and most of the utilities are poor.
I just think it’s sad that 2 of the 4 things that make necros necros are really underpowered (condition manipulation, fears, siphons, minions). Siphons should be necros thing, that should be the foundation of many builds, but they are useless. Minions are also severely underpowered largely do to their uselessness when aoe is around.
1) fix necros
2) fix mesmers
3) fix rangers
snip for length
I consider most ele defensive traits to be passive, if you don’t have to change your play style to get an additional effect, that is passive to me. You can argue that they have better effect if played smartly, but meta ele builds get extra benefits without doing anything extra, and that fits well within my definition of passive. Also, realize most people on the forums know the classes pretty well, so when you say “most people don’t realize,” your dead wrong. You should probably consider not everyone thinks just like you before you speak about others thoughts.
I was responding that that was your opinion because you stated that it was fact. Now your saying it was your opinion, so your contradicting yourself. Elemental attunement cannot be countered. There is nothing I can do to prevent you from applying those boons to yourself, I can remove them afterwards, but that isn’t countering the application. This is also why conditions are weak, you can prevent the application, not just remove it later on.
The rest of your post kind of meanders on, but you really only make the point that you hate COD because it has no counterplay. That’s hilarious because you play the build that relies on having no counterplay to the damage. Air 2 and 3 plus fresh air all have no counterplay and deal more dps than COD by a mile? Surely you don’t think that because you have to press one button those are any better than COD. COD requires that I have to get my enemy to half health, imo that is way harder to do than pressing a few buttons while also requiring an action. Both have no real counterplay, so both should get nerfed if anything.
Mesmers do have instant burst, shatters are instant. Fortunately, you can tell when they are coming more easily because of visual tells (clones are alive and running towards you if they were out of range), but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s instant burst.
Also, most of the stuff you state are opinions, not facts. It’s my opinion that thieves and eles can take way more damage over the course of a fight than necros because of healing and disengages. I don’t state that as fact because another person, you in this case, can say that necros have more health so they can eat a bigger burst (although eles and thieves can mitigate that same burst more effectively with dodges and invulns).
Anecdotal evidence saying 80% of all necros are noobs, and you don’t think you have an ego, or a superiority complex. That’s funny, have a good day.
kitten stuff
It is completely your opinion that necros are easier to 1vs2 on, you could show some evidence, but I could show evidence saying fresh air ele is far easier to 1vs2 on as well. I personally think 1vs2ing on a necro in pvp is extremely difficult against anyone half competent. Furthermore, ele is the king of passive defense and instant and your complaining about the one of the few uncounterable things necros have. Fresh air can’t be countered, elemental attunement can’t be countered, your vigor on crit can’t be countered, and your instant and 1/4 second cast weapons skills can’t be countered either. Meanwhile, necros have one instant proc that is extremely predictable, doom, and reaper’s protection that are all uncounterable, but extremely predictable. It’s absurd to me that you can complain about chill of death when guardians, eles, and mesmers have literal instant burst damage and your class has some of the most passive defense in the game behind warrior and guard.
You then give anecdotal evidence saying most necros are bad players. If their so bad, and you win all the time then you shouldn’t be complaining about anything on the class. Also, consider your own superiority complex, if your beating a class so easily maybe it isn’t because the players are bad (statistics tell us that average skill level across all the classes is the same for large sample sizes like a video game), but because the class is underpowered.
I suggested making it the DM 3 point minor in the pvp forums. The reason I think this would be good is because it would allow necros to invest 3 points to get a little bit of stability. For me, this trait has always been something that requires you to adjust your playstyle too much to get a lot of effectiveness out of it. If it was a minor, you would still get a bonus, but not feel bad by not utilizing it to its full effectiveness. It’s never been a good gm imo, just the only source of stability necros have. If necros had access to a utility that gave stability, no one would have ever taken this, and that means to me it simply isn’t a gm.
1) The reason teams bring necros sometimes is too blow up other teams in plus one fights. For instance, on the abjured phantaram can bunker far 1vs2 for a little while giving you a man advantage. Necros are really good in +1 fights because they can hit fear chains, have unblockable skills, and have boon corruption. This effectively means the other team won’t be able to 1vs2 on a point if a necro is part of the 2 (unless they really get outplayed). This is countered by not letting the necro get in an uneven fight.
2) Passive defense, stability, vigor, or another blink would be a good start. Specifically, you could buff signet of vampirisms passive, give necros more access to defensive boons through traits. You could make foot in the grave the DM 3 point minor, and give necros a trait that gives them defensive boons on use of spectral skills (Armor gives stab, walk gives vigor, grasp gives protection, wall gives retal). Then you could buff Blood magic, and gives wells higher total uptime (reduce cooldowns as well as number of pulses, Well of darkness especially is terribad in pvp). Also, a reduction of many of the cast times would indirectly make necros less vulnerable to interrupts (there are barely any instants or 1/4 second casts on necros). Another good idea is to make withering precision’s icd per target. Honestly though, people, including myself, have posted so many great ideas on the necro subforum, but it doesn’t seem like anyone has ever read that stuff.
3) The only way to stay alive if the other team is smart and your team isn’t peeling is to not engage in the first place, otherwise even with walk, wurm, and armor you will die quickly.
4) It would be nice if necros started with 20% DS minimum on every death. The heal problem goes back to a lack of passive defense, but I also want to note necros don’t have a guaranteed heal like other classes. Eles have signet, warrs have signet, thieves have withdraw, engis have turret, guards have shelter. The reason many of these are strong is that they are very hard or impossible to counter, and I think it is only fair that mesmers, necros, and rangers get a heal that is very hard to counter while also being strong.
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All healing should function in DS. It is necros defensive mechanic, do other classes defensive mechanics prevent healing? No, so Ds shouldn’t prevent it either. Sorel unknowingly pointed it out perfectly. When your focusing other classes they pop defensive cooldowns and can then be healed by their teammates. Necros currently can’t do this because thier defensive mechanic completely shuts out all healing. DS isn’t as good of a defensive mechanic as any other classes defensive mechanics against multiple opponents, and necros have the worst sustain in 1vs1 as well, so this, which in effect gives necros more sustain, wouldn’t be op.
Dagger auto should stay the same. Dagger 2 needs a significant cast time reduction to be strong. 3.5 seconds plus pre cast is absolutely absurd, needs to be 2.5 seconds for the whole thing including pre and after cast. Dagger 3 should get a 3/4 second cast and a 5 seconds shave on the cooldown. Then the weapon would be really versitile.
HEY, if you’re having trouble with necromancer and you need ANET to buff it, im NOT against that, I’d like to Actually be overpowered like dhummfire days, but don’t try and validate ur opinion of necro’s being bad Because they have a good chance of beating shout war, cele ele, cele engi. They have game changing elites and YES they can be in two places at once with wurm, we used to have rip watch home and mid with condi necro while we assaulted far, worked GREAT.
For one, stop insulting the whole necro community, it’s rude and makes you look like a childish kitten. Also, if necros really had such strong matchups against those classes they would be on every team considering those 3 builds make up 60% of most teams. Seeing as they aren’t on every team, it is fair to assume those matchups aren’t as good as you think. Also, wurm is probably the worst utility port in the game, with a 1.5 second cast time and the same cooldown as lightning flash. Also, it is well known necros are slow rotaters due to lack of consistent swiftness, and no on weapon movement skills. Certainly one of the last classes people would describe as in two places at once.
I also wouldn’t describe the elites as game changing, lich definetely forces the issue, and plagues is a very strong debuff, but they can be countered by good players quite easily. Your last sentence fragment is just anecdotal evidence about a team comp you had, and doesn’t really mean anything.
Buddy, I run warhorn which by default gives 20 sec of swiftness on a 30 second colddown and can be traited for 100% uptime, if u take warhorn and spectral walk u have 150% uptime on swiftness, so yes necros can rotate plenty fast. Also, there are MANY bad necros out there, I offer support if needed, contact me ingame, my name is below.
So you don’t address most of the points cause you know I’m right on them. Also, that high swiftness uptime you have required far more investment then other home point defending or other far point assaulting classes have to sacrifice. Warhorn can be used for swiftness, but it is a rare day when you use spectral walk for the swiftness and not as a stunbreak. Also, your still a slower rotater even with all that swiftness than all the other roamers. Shoutbow has swiftness and sword 2, engi has perma swiftness plus jump shot, ele has fgs, rtl, burning speed, swiftness, and thief has ports for days. Even with that huge investment of a utility and an offhand your still a slower rotater than all the meta classes. Also, there are no more bad necros then their are bad any other classes (statistics will support that), it’s just other classes are more beginner friendly because they have all the things necros lack like passive defense.
HEY, if you’re having trouble with necromancer and you need ANET to buff it, im NOT against that, I’d like to Actually be overpowered like dhummfire days, but don’t try and validate ur opinion of necro’s being bad Because they have a good chance of beating shout war, cele ele, cele engi. They have game changing elites and YES they can be in two places at once with wurm, we used to have rip watch home and mid with condi necro while we assaulted far, worked GREAT.
For one, stop insulting the whole necro community, it’s rude and makes you look like a childish kitten. Also, if necros really had such strong matchups against those classes they would be on every team considering those 3 builds make up 60% of most teams. Seeing as they aren’t on every team, it is fair to assume those matchups aren’t as good as you think. Also, wurm is probably the worst utility port in the game, with a 1.5 second cast time and the same cooldown as lightning flash. Also, it is well known necros are slow rotaters due to lack of consistent swiftness, and no on weapon movement skills. Certainly one of the last classes people would describe as in two places at once.
I also wouldn’t describe the elites as game changing, lich definetely forces the issue, and plagues is a very strong debuff, but they can be countered by good players quite easily. Your last sentence fragment is just anecdotal evidence about a team comp you had, and doesn’t really mean anything.
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I’m going to be honest, I think necros are in a good place and really don’t need any buffs, BUT, if you want to keep complaining and get them buffed I’m totally fine with that.
My reasoning:
*condi necro beats D/D 1v1, beats cele engi 1v1, and coupled with an engi or medi guard is extremely powerful
*condi necro provides peels, stomps, rezes, cleave, corrupts, can be in two places at once with wurm, shall I continue?
*Power necro has Fantastic 1v1 capabilities, can take D/D, can take Shout warrior, can take medi guard, can take cele engi, AND has an “I WIN” button that potentially turns entire fights around (cough, lich)ONE THING THAT DOES NEED TO BE DONE THOUGH, necro is ONLY good when they have SOME deathshroud, PLEASE give us at LEAST 20% DS off start in SPVP
But if there are a whole bunch of horrible necros out that who get slaughtered because they think it should be as easy as the face roll cele classes and want it to get buffed, go for it, that won’t hurt me :P
d/d ele is a 50/50 match up at best. Cele engi is at most 60/40 in the necros favor. Condition necro doesn’t provide stomps, especially not now that the fitg trait is dead (blowing two stun breaks to stomp someone is almost never worth it). They are probably also the worst class for rezzing (unless you use plague for it), and their cleave damage on downed foes isn’t that high either (although poison on chillblains is strong). LOL at being in two places at once, necros are the worst rotaters in the game.
Power and condition necros provide the same role of blowing up teams in outnumbered fights. Both builds become strongest when you have one more then the other team in a fight. Lich is great, but has plenty of counters and certainly isn’t an IWIN button against good players.
Cele engi and ele most certainly aren’t faceroll. You can almost always tell the difference between good and bad players on those classes.
As far as the thief goes, assassins equilibrium could definitely use a buff and I would be all for that. The problem is foot in the grave was necros only option for resistance to cc besides two elites on a 180 second cooldown, and a well on a 50 second cooldown. We don’t have a ton of dodges, blinds, or stealth for sustain and our port options are very limited, so this trait was a way to get stomps, and avoid cc briefly. Now it is only useful for stomping in a 1vs1, and one cc, which is a joke were it was mainly useful in team fights.
Also, the only way to get high stability uptime on this trait was by flashing Death Shroud which is in general a bad option. In general, 5 traits in the necro trait lines are gated, or balanced, by the minimum time it takes to get enter DS twice which is 7 seconds. It’s extremely unrealistic in all, but pve and needs to be seriously reconsidered. As a minor or an adept it would at least be useable, but no one is going to justify taking it above that.
Tentatively, I don’t think so let me go test real quick.
Edit: Testing with superior sigil of torment resulted in no increase, so my assumption was correct.
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Or a master minor? 1 stack for 3 seconds,realistically every 15 seconds is way way way to weak for grandmaster level. Making it adept or a master minor would give necros a way to get a small amount of cc resistance which the class definitely needs. Then maybe give us another gm that gives stability, or team support. Please, getting tired of being a ping pong ball.
The only reason they made this change is so people can kill others more easily in outnumbered fights. In even fights it won’t be worth it to burn 5-10 ccs to remove the stab. Also, warriors shouldn’t be complaining, necros one decent source of stability is now as strong as an adept trait.
They should make this the 3 point minor in DM. That’s about what it’s worth now.
Feels like a nerf to lich. Also foot in the grave if only one stack went from questionable to laughable
Yep it’s almost completely useless as opposed to being mostly useless now. They should change it to apply 1 stack every 3 seconds in DS. Then it would be good.
Because one condition removed every 10s is considered standard for an Adept see: Purity.
Fair enough. Since that is completely passive though, and this trait would require active play to generate LF and then enter DS it should be marginally stronger than that. While I admit my suggestion would probably be to strong, the current version is weaker than that guardian trait by a ways. While one could potentially get one condition removed every 7 seconds it isn’t realistic to get anything better than 1 condition every 15 seconds, so this trait should get buffed accordingly. Anet does too much balancing, especially on necros, according to theoretical values, and not what is realistic mid match.
Necros also need a better way to deal with conditions in DS, so buffing this trait to transmute a condition every X seconds or remove a condition every ~7 seconds in DS would be a good start. Then they could give us a trait that makes one of the DS skills remove conditions (or just add it to Unholy Martyr).
The engi 3 point minor in alchemy changes one condition into a boon every 15 seconds. Since adept major traits should be stronger than master minors, I don’t see why this couldn’t convert a boon into a condition on entry and exit or every 10 seconds in DS. It would really fit the boon duration trait line well.
Amir, your a ridiculous poster who clearly hates necros. You give examples of fear chains without even acknowledging those combos can be interrupted, or stun broken out of. You say you can catch them at the end of their dodge chain, but what if they double dodge or pop stability at the end of the dodge roll. What if they use an instant cc at the end of their dodge roll?
You give on example of an extraordinarily high skilled necro on a team as a means of saying they are strong. I can name at least 10 eles on similar teams. You say people don’t understand how the class works as if there aren’t players who know every in and out of the class (which there are).
You state necros have great survivability because they can 100-0 people in a team fight, but so can a longbow ranger, and they aren’t tanky. You say they have two health bars ignoring that one of those degens over time, and isn’t easy to get in the first place, and all the defensive mechanics necros give up just to get that one bar. You state a 180 second cooldown elite skill makes the class have high survivability. Also, you state having two teleports, which are probably the worst two teleports in the game, give the class good survivability.
You also state two times that they work in a team setting ignoring most of the other classes work in every setting, and aren’t completely reliant on their team to function well.
Do you even read what you write? You just look like an angry child who hates a class. If you can’t see necros are lacking, when you state yourself they are dependent on a team to function while other classes do well regardless, then your blind and ignorant. Furthermore, even with a team built around a necro that team would still be better off with an engi, they provide more damage and similar levels of cc while not relying on their team to be tanky.
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To be fair, a lot of classes have problems, and bad traits. The real thing that annoys me about necros is how they addressed warriors condition removal and sustain problems, but never ours. Necros have been asking for buffs to the blood and death magic, which are two terrible trait lines, since launch. Until necros have a solid defensive trait line, good sustain weapons (dagger is so close, axe is terribad), and get some way to avoid focus fire a little longer they will be in the bottom tier in pvp.
In pvp engi+necro is the strongest pairing because engis can spam out enough conditions to cover your bleeds, and together you have enough cc to make it difficult to remove all of the conditions while also preventing the glassy necro from getting focused. Support guard isn’t really good 2vs2 because it lacks damage, so the other team can just focus you first then kill the guard. Mesmers are the opposite end of the spectrum in that they don’t provide enough support to a necro to be as effective. Either through cc on the enemy, healing, or stability a good partner will provide the necro with a way to mitigate damage on them.
Ranger vs. Necromancer “all specs”
SB Condi (7:3) The Ranger needs only worry about the first Consume Conditions from the Necromancer. Once it’s used, land a burst and make sure to save your ALL your CCs to pin down the Necromancer while the condis tick and drop him. He has no skills such as shout condi clears “that can be used even while he is CC’d” so if he is pinned down, he’s already dead.Plague Signet is instant cast stun break that reks condi ranger hard. Deathly swarm and putrid mark also are very strong against.
The necro would have to be extremely bad to lose that match up.
Very few people run Plague signet because the passive sucks, and the active requires you to face your target while also being on a long cooldown. It also isn’t in the meta build at the top, so wasn’t considered. Also, survival ranger has a ton of condition removal, a ton of immobilize, and can apply 5 or 6 stacks of bleeds very quickly. Quick reapplication of conditions is very strong against necros that rely on 3 skills that are very good at cleansing a lot of conditions, but not good at cleansing a few conditions regularly.
The problem with necros is that they sacrifice almost every non-baseline defensive mechanic in the game for boon corruption, condition transfer, DS, and the ability to blow up teams in +1 fights. The sacrifice for this is way way way to large to be worth it on pretty much any team. The class has some good offensive things going for it, aoe and high sustained damage in particular, but defensively necros are so weak it is absurd and until that changes the class will continue to be very rarely taken at high level pvp.
EdIt:
There was a time necros did sorta well, as did rangers, and then people whined and whined and whined about spirits and Dhuumfire and pet/minion damage that the necro just got owned into a punching bag again. The problem was always the long terror chains not dhuumfire but they nerfed the living crap out of Dhuumfire in all their fine foresight, just as they nerfed weakness duration upon entering death shroud so now people can just train the necro to death.
If you want to know why any class is currently not doing too well on any aspect of the game, look no further than spvp whine, it’s the source of all class destroying nerfs.
The only reason necros were taken with dhummfire was because it provided necros with burst levels of damage in fear chains. That was why they were taken for the 2 months or so when that was strong. Otherwise, necros have never been strong in this game. I do agree that there are a ton of forum warriors, especially for warrior, thief, and ele which are 3 of the classes that have been meta for most of the game. Necros damage has pretty much always been pretty decent in pvp, the real problem is defense where necros are blatantly worse than every other class.
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Honestly the people defending this are comedic gold. Thief vs Mesmer is already heavily in favor of the thief, and making this change would make the trait actually work. It’s also not like thief vs mesmer would be any better, and I doubt anyone would start running this trait. Seriously though, if your saying this change shouldn’t happen your a forum warrior who’s only arguing out of self interest.
Yep, this is exactly what should happen. Thief vs mesmer is already a one-sided matchup, so buffing this would be great. It would also make this trait somewhat viable in an interrupt build.
Really interesting thread, and while I agree with most of what blackbeard said, I’m going to post my opinions on the matchups anyway. From the perspective of the terrormancer spec:
Bunker Guard 7:3 : Necros are kind of meant to blow up bunkers like this, and I’ll always win the 1vs1, but if I don’t time my interrupts and CB after their key skills it will take way too long.
Medi Guard 2:8 : This is probably generous, necros can’t mitigate their burst well, and they have plenty of condition clears. Unless they blow all their skills I won’t win this.
Shoutbow 2:8 : This matchup can be won if you can get a nice fear chain in, and they have burned all their condition removals, but against anyone decent you won’t ever kill them. Sometimes it feels like I’m hitting a brick wall in this matchup.
Cele engi 5:5 : Pretty close matchup. They have enough cc to own me, but if I can maintain spacing they won’t be able to handle the fears.
Condition engi 7:3 : Since they have less cc, this matchup is much easier, but if the engi can poke effectively they can win still.
Turret engi 8:2 : Without a stun break the fear chains are too easy to land, and I just blow them up.
Condition survival 6:4: I have the advantage of being able to send back their bleeds, but they have a ton of condition removal on this build, so it becomes essential to make them burn their stun break, land a transfer and fear chain to win.
Power Ranger 2:8 : If I can get in on them then it’s 8:2, but any half decent ranger won’t let that happen.
S/D thief 4:6 : I rarely win this fight against a good thief, but often hold the point long enough for it not to matter. Realistically, they shouldn’t ever die to a low sustained damage output class.
D/P thief(both) 3:7 : The burst hurts, but if they aren’t careful I can get a nice chain off and they die. IF they are panic strike, sending back the immob is real strong.
D/D cele ele 5:5 :It’s all about landing Dark path, and a fear right after they leave water, if I can do that over the first 30 seconds, I will probably win.
S/F Fresh air 3:7 : Ranged burst is very hard to deal with on a necro.
Double Range mesmer 5:5 : I like this match up a lot, they have enough cc, invis, invulns, and teleports to avoid most of my big hitters, but are weak to even the auto attack. I’m also weak to their damage.
s/t greatsword mes 4:6 : It’s more difficult to deal with the immobilize and stealth
Terromancer 7:3 : most necros are bad lol
Power mancer 4:6 : I think powermancer has the edge here simply because their direct damage pressure is stronger than my pressure with fear.
I’m skeptical of 2 amulet stats because something like toughness, healing power on a guard would be really strong, but in general the idea is good. I think there needs to be more 4 stat amulets, zerkers is in a really good place and it would be nice to see some different combinations of tankiness and damage.
Supcutie played thief because there was a technical issue that didn’t allow him to play mesmer, not because he felt thief would be stronger.
Necromancer is fine, it’s one of the best professions for conquest. It can maintain a constant snowball because it +1s fights the best. All it requires is a team that offers peels, can rotate and win their fights so that the necromancer can rotate into those fights. Has enough mechanics for surviving such as flesh wurm and spectral walk as well as death shroud.
Ranger needs a buff.
Mesmer is fine, same as necromancer, it required a coordinated team that can peel for the mesmer. It offers one of the strongest skills in conquest when executed correctly. Portal Entre.
Just cause you don’t see these classes in tournaments doesn’t mean they need buffs, other classes are just much easier and offer more with less work.
You sure on that first one? There was a technical issue I remember, but that wasn’t stated as the reason to play thief. Also, your last point is exactly why they need buffs, it isn’t fair to leave 2 our of 8 classes as dependents on a team. How can you say necros are strong when they require at least one class just to peel for them? Don’t you think classes should be able to survive independently? Furthermore, it pushes these classes from the meta because they can’t survive independently.
The only justification you gave for these classes not getting buffs is that they provide something unique, but so do all the other classes. Also, necros, mesmers, and rangers are taken on teams way less than the other classes. If that isn’t a reason to give them buffs I don’t know what is. You stated it yourself that there is no reason to take these classes. How do you think people who play those classes feel who dedicate their time practicing their classes just to see less skilled players perform better or as good just cause they play the right class?
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Sinister and Zealot would be awesome, Dire might be too strong, nomad would just make it bunker wars 2. I’m all for sigil of mischief in pvp.
so zapv
what sort of buffs did you have in mind, if any? it seems to me if any of those classes got the buffs they needed then it would make them extremely strong. then it might be necessary to nerf certain other aspects of the class. for example i know that necro could use more mobility and/ or survivability. swalk and wurm are good but other meta specs have their mobility and/ or survivability on weapon skills, allowing them to grab a little extra. so if necros got more mobility, wouldnt their soft cc have to be nerfed to compensate? also if they got more survivability, wouldnt deathshroud have to be nerfed?
Well these are just my opinions, but here we go.
Mesmers are far too dependent on Deceptive Evasion for clone generation, it needs to be easier to generate clones or the clones need to stay alive longer. Also, Mesmers don’t have a lot of support, or really strong defensive traits that don’t revolve around you being able to interrupt your opponent. They also would do well to give buffs to mesmer utilities that increase the mesmers durability, for more build diversity. The other main problem with mesmer is how strong thief is in thief vs mesmer. If they made that match up better mesmers would be taken more often.
Rangers have a ton of problems. For one, the pet dies to easily to aoe. The trait lines skirmishing and beast mastery are weak, and could use buffs as well. The other problem is subpar weapon skills, axe isn’t a coherent weapons set, shortbow should have at least one other condition on it, offhand axe is bad, and greatsword isn’t great either. I’m not as familiar with this class, so I’m sure others could speak better to this one.
Necros have 3 problems in particular. First, necros lack sustain because Death Magic, and especially blood magic are bad, and there isn’t healing in DS. Second, necros also have too many weak weapon skills. Every weapon combo has a weak weapon skill, Scepter 3 is weak, dagger 2 and 3 are weak, axe 1 and 2 are weak, staff 1 is weak, focus is weak. There isn’t a weaponset that feels coherent and strong across the board. The last problem with necros is how easy they are to focus, necros either need more mobility (dark path ground targeted, leap skill, vigor), or stability (possibly a trait on activation of spectral skills).
These classes are also plagued by weak, and nonsensical trait and trait locations. They all also have very unreliable class mechanics as opposed to other classes.
Ranger is already far too strong. Any buff to them needs to include a huge nerf to the longbow and the pet. A reduction in the time of Entangle wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
The Ranger may be too powerful, but overall it’s still not providing something the game wants or needs. Thus why no one plays it and even some of the highest skilled teams can’t seem to make it work.
So if we want to have an honest discussion on why the class is overpowered, we also need to have an honest discussion on how to improve it in other ways so the class can actually have a reason to exist.
Honestly speaking, the same could be said for Mesmers and Necromancers. Neither class pulls their own weight and requires far too much of an investment from the team to truly be viable. But Ranger is easily in a far worse state overall.
This really gets to the crux of the issue, many in this thread have disagreed that these classes need buffs, giving no justification as to why these classes shouldn’t be buffed (Other than longbow 2, which is a hilariously bad argument). These three classes cannot simply be taken in a team comp, the team comp has to be built around them and with them in mind. This is why you haven’t ever seen these classes as the meta because they require far more work to have them in a team then they are worth.
When Supcutie was playing a thief today (as opposed to mesmer which has always been his favorite), and when I watched Nos get focused time and again with very little reasonable counterplay it emphasized this. Anyone who honestly disagrees with these classes getting buffs, please give me a legitimate reason why they don’t deserve buffs. Balance is around pvp high level play and they are all currently under performing, which is obvious to anyone paying attention.
Yes. Lets take the best burster, the class with 40K effective hp and the one that can kill other classes by pushing button 2 on every cooldown and buff them. They sure need it.
Few really care how they perform in the top 1% min-max-or-die-eSports-wannabe segment. All the classes do fine in normal sPvP. If perfectly equal is required, Anet should simply remove all classes from sPvP and give us a single class with preset skills. A Warrior with only 1 skill (auto-attack) on a 0/0/0/0/0 spec would be fine I think. Sword and sheild as only weapons. No weapon swapping, cant be unfair.
The class has 20k HP and a profession mechanic, while also lacking numerous defensive and offensive mechanics almost every other class has. Any decent player won’t die to a single rapid fire let alone let it hit them, and mesmer burst is only slightly more difficult to avoid.
I’m not saying all classes should perform the same. I’m saying these classes have very rarely been in the meta and deserve buffs to be pushed into the meta for once.
and mesmers off and on based on individual skill
I don’t understand this part of your post. Are you saying that mesmers need to be a no-skill class?
I think he means that when a class is relying on “positioning and team peeling” as ONLY damage avoidance source- which is universal to all and even map dependant, it means the class is generally weak just theres a few exceptional players.
So thats the risk part, and we all know that the reward part is also not worth it – how long can a mesmer/necro bunker a point they just gained vs cele ele for example.
Exactly, thank you very much for clarifying.
Your honestly just wrong about it, they are all very strong classes in their own right. Learn to play them at a very high and dedicated level and maybe you’ll get it. Ranger especially is over the top if anything for the minimal amount of skill or coordination required to be effective.
No they aren’t, if they were then their would be 1-2 on every single team. These classes have a very small presence at high level pvp, and the only reason they exist there is because of high individual skill less than the class itself.
No, they don’t.
LOL great logical, thoughtful argument there.
The problem isn’t existing classes but meta builds.
Celestial is little overpowered ATM.
It is the classes though, why don’t we see cele necros, mesmers, or rangers in tournaments? It’s because they can’t use all those stats, which is basically to say that they can’t do enough damage while traiting defensively to actually kill someone, or they could deal enough damage but would die easily. That means they simply aren’t as good in those respects, and sense Anet has always pushed the “play how you want” there is no reason why they shouldn’t perform equally as well as those classes.
and mesmers off and on based on individual skill
I don’t understand this part of your post. Are you saying that mesmers need to be a no-skill class?
No quite the opposite, I’m all for skilled gameplay. Currently though, shatter mesmers skill floor for high level pvp is extraordinarily high, and the only real reward you get is portal. Their burst is way harder to land then a thieves or medi guards, and you don’t get any extra damage. I just for once want to see these classes pushed into rolls where they are taken on every team like how engis, and eles are now.
I don’t get it either, do rangers need to click 1 button to make a kill + stomp? Because currently it takes 2 to do that…
Against complete scrubs maybe, at high level play rangers longbow rangers are much more difficult to play.
These three classes are simply subpar when compared with the other 5 classes, when will they get a buff? They have also been the least meta classes over the course of the game with necros being meta for about 2 months, rangers during the spirit meta, and mesmers off and on based on individual skill. It is high time we see these classes on every single team for once, and the other classes that have almost always been in the meta pushed to the fringes.
The skills will probably look like this:
Auto chain: 1) deal damage
2) deal damage and generate life force
3) deal damage and chill your foe (2 second chill)
2 skill: Hit your foe multiple times inflicting blind (1s) on each hit 6-10 second cooldown
3 skill: A smaller well that applies torment or confusion and direct damage (15 second cooldown)
4 skill: A defensive buff of some kind, either an aura (blood or dark aura please), weakness, or protection (20-25 second cooldown)
5 skill: aoe taunt, pull or knockdown (25-30 second cooldown)
Only on forums do you find people who think they know how others will react to things, and think they speak for everyone. I only solo queue and enjoy it quite thoroughly. Sure there are lopsided games, but there are lopsided games in every other matchmaking system I’ve ever played in (Starcraft, MOBAs, FPS).
Hey, I can’t advise you on how to trait unless you tell me what type of build you want to play. Condition, or power are the only strong options right now, but minions or other tank builds are also possible. The reason you have 14 traits is because 70/5=14. In other words every one trait point now is worth 5 times the old trait points. Actually, equipping traits is no different then it used to be. Just hit the plus or minus to get traits.
Flesh wurm’s problem isnt the range, its the buggy naturr of teleport mechanic due to height and line of sight. It fails me like 20% of the time do the buff would not at all make it OP.
As for spectral walk, there is already a trait that makes it last longer so that could be OP. What they need to do is buff unused utilities like Corrosive poison cloud, not ones we actuallly use. This is from a balancing perspective
I disagree, flesh wurm having that range would give necros a way to rotate home or mid. Spectral walk having a longer duration would allow necros to engage then disengage for a short period of time, or combine with flesh wurm to teleport back home after going mid or vica versa.
I know the trait exists, and had considered that and compared to other classes I still don’t think it would be too strong. Necros are a glassy profession in pvp, the other glassy professions can rotate much better then necros making necros suboptimal in most team comps. That is why a buff like this could be smart. Normally, I like to see buffs to unused skills, but the best necro skills aren’t on par with other classes best skills. That needs to change first to bring necros further into the meta.
I long for the day when I can look at a necro utility bar, and compare skill for skill with ele cantrips, warrior stances, guardian shouts and meditations, thief shadowstep, Infiltrators, Sr, or mesmer portal blink decoy. Those are skills good enough to make any build work because they give a lot of the survivability, whether that be in the form of disengages, invulns or healing. Arguably, Spectral Armor, Spectral Walk, and wurm are the skills that can fill that have been filling that roll for us, as most builds take 2 of those 3. The problem is they are still outclasses by other classes utilities. Compare blink, lightning flash, or shadowstep to wurm. Compare Spectral armor to endure pain, or armor of earth. The skills are simply outclassed.
The fact of the matter is necros are carried by condition transfers, soft cc, boon corruption, and a huge HP pool. To get those few things we give up dodges, invulns, resistance to cc, being able to rotate quickly, having good healing through traits and weapons, high boon application, support, damaging conditions (little torment, no confusion, hard to get burning) and big hitting burst skills.
Sorry for the rant, I could go for a while about how weak mesmers and necros are relative to the skill required to play them. The point is, necros very best weapons, traits, and utilities fall behind other classes, and still need buffs.
What if spectral wurms teleport was 5000 range, and spectral walk lasted 15 or more seconds? Do you think this would be OP? Would necros be in more team comps?
Make withering precision icd per target like ele blinding ashes, and maybe it would be worth it.
It’d be nice if they just reduced the cooldown to 40 seconds and/or give a 3-4 seconds of stability on self. The real problem with necros is their weak weapon skills, traits and sustain though. If necros had better sustain and traits then we wouldn’t be pigeonholed into 2 stunbreaks and one damaging utility. Then maybe well team support builds would open up.
They should randomize only over 4 days. In other words, every 4 days all 8 professions should show up. First day you random from all 8 professions, second from the 6 remaining, third from the 4 remaining, and fourth are the last two. That way you get a more consistent distribution.
In pvp: You want a necro if that necro is Noscoc, otherwise you don’t.
In pve: You don’t.
In wvw: It is always worth it to babysit necros here.
For me, I always enjoy playing against the best of players. Winning doesn’t mean much to me, playing against better players allows you to analyze what they do to be successful and show what you can do. This should allow you to improve as a player. Also, who are these teams going to get matched up against in the better matchmaking scenario? It isn’t like there are a lot of teams on this level.
I’d just like to add:
Dagger 2, Life Siphon: removed precast, reduced cast time to 2.5 seconds (currently with pre and after cast it is like a 4 second channel, which is absurd)
Dagger 3: Reduced cooldown to 15 seconds.
Also, wells still need higher uptime they are way to easy for decent players to avoid. It would also be nice if they fixed a ton of the really bad traits.
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