Guild Wars 2

AliamRationem.5172:

symke.3105:

Stick with it. It will get better.
At least, that’s what I’ve been telling myself. But the road to there will be long and tedious. I am still doing HOT and LS3 maps, but I already know Tangled depths will have a special place in my memory for a long time. And it will not be a pleasant one.

The map isn’t as useless as you think. You probably just aren’t used to needing to use the map markers the way you need to in TD.

For instance, take a closer look at the markers for cave entrances/exits and ramps. They have up or down arrows on them. These arrows indicate a shift in the map layer. Knowing this you can much more easily follow the pathways in TD by using the map.

Try it! Take a look at the cave marker south of Order of Whispers waypoint using the third map layer. It shows an up arrow indicating a transition point between the current layer you’re viewing and the one above it.

You will also notice that on the third layer the path from Order of Whispers waypoint is obscured by the path that connects the cave system containing the Troll champion hero challenge to the Order of Whispers outpost POI. However, when you view this same area in the top map layer you instead see a clear path from Order of Whispers waypoint to the cave entrance marker. The marker is telling you to switch from the third layer to the layer above it to view the correct path.

You will notice many such markers throughout the map with arrows indicating map transitions. These include ramps, stairs, caves, and even arrows all by themselves.

The other marker to pay close attention to are the Nuhoch Wallows. They have arrows corresponding to the wallow they connect to. For instance, look to the south of Order of Whispers waypoint. You will see a wallow marker pointing northeast to another wallow in the undergrowth connector. Just east of that wallow is another wallow that points to a wallow located right next to Teku Nuhoch waypoint.

You can tell which layer a wallow is on because it will appear transparent when you are viewing a different layer. In this way you can tell that the wallow east of where you teleported into the undergrowth connector is above you and you will know to take the upward path to reach it. This same trick applies to the marked roads themselves. When viewed on a different layer they appear transparent.

If you look at the positions of the various wallows you will notice something else that’s important to know. The wallows for each camp (ogre, teku nuhoch, rata novus, and scar) correspond to the “lanes” where the meta occurs, making it easy for players to waypoint to a camp and then wallow straight into the end of the lane they wish to join for the meta.

Knowing this makes it a lot easier to use the map to navigate TD. However, many objectives are still hidden off the marked pathways with no indication of how to reach them. That’s where the real exploration challenge comes in, and unfortunately there’s no other way than to simply explore.

It might help to keep an eye out for pathways that aren’t marked. Chances are that pathway leads to an objective of some sort. For instance, if you wander west from Teku Nuhoch you’ll see a cave with an HP marked on the map nearby. There’s no road leading to the HP, but if you just walk into that cave you’ll find it. Of course, other objectives will be a little trickier to find!

Thank you for your help.
I already assumed there were ways of reading the map which I haven’t mastered yet and you just helped me understand them a bit better. I will try and use your advice later today and hope this will shed some light on otherwise a gloomy situation.

Rennie.6750:

Yes I agree I’m not done with everything yet and it makes me regretting buying this game so much right now… The maps are a chore to play and to navigate around. The story missions are boring and tedious, and the jumping puzzle ones (like prized possession) made me willing to throw my computer out through the window. After doing it I was really feeling like kittenslapping the guys who made and approved this for like an hour or two, it was that bad. I have sadly bought the new PoF expansion too and if it’s the same kind of content well that’ll be one less player, i’ll quit without any hesitation.

Stick with it. It will get better.
At least, that’s what I’ve been telling myself. But the road to there will be long and tedious. I am still doing HOT and LS3 maps, but I already know Tangled depths will have a special place in my memory for a long time. And it will not be a pleasant one.

The entire zone is basically a jumping puzzle. I imagine that hose that like them feel a pleasant tingling in their nether region when they enter the zone, while to those that don’t like jumping puzzles, it often represents a feeling of dread and misery at the thought of “having” to do anything in it.

Just yesterday I joined a HP run. It started great. I mean, we even had one player leading and dropping icons for others to follow. Well, by the time we reached the first HP, we already lost some players as it was unclear where all those glowing effects went. Three of us stopped to rezz a fellow player and by the time we were done, we lost the sight of the group. Luckily we were able to locate them quickly, as they were standing on a ledge not far away. We managed to figure out we need to use two updrafts and voila .. the group is already moving away while we are trying to get there and commune with the HP. By the time we were done, we lost the sight of the group, again. But this time, we weren’t able to see them. We could see dots on the map, but are they above us or under us? And HOW did they get to where they were? Did they use updraft, mushroom or Nuhoch wallow? Or maybe some combination of those?

Forget about using the map. It has four levels in a zone that has none. It shows a road ahead of you even if it is in another level, but it doesn’t show which level it is in.
I imagine there are some tricks to decipher those maps that I haven’t mastered yet, but to make map reading the most tedious thing to do in a game, is a bit off-putting.

I know I will eventually reach 100% map completion, but Tangled depths and maybe some other zone I have yet to discover, will make that experience a considerably less pleasurable experiance as it could (and should) have been.

AliamRationem.5172:

Leo G.4501:

I don’t see why having an opinion is such a controversial thing.

Personally disliked most of the HoT maps. Verdant Brink wasn’t bad. Like Auric Basin but Tangled Depths is annoying. My dislike of HoT was how the majority of the content was hard locked by the masteries which, when i started HoT, had no clue how to get more mastery points outside of the ones marked on the map (which weren’t enough). Even to this day, i am limited in mastery points until i do achievements i don’t want to do but at least the remaining masteries aren’t necessary to progress.

The reason i don’t like Tangled Depths is because the visual map is useless as a guide. At least Verdant Brink was open enough that i could explore to find out how to get somewhere or if you’re able to reach it.

Yes, the majority of content is locked behind masteries…a whole 4 points worth of them (bounce mushrooms, basic gliding, updrafts). By earning about as much experience as it took you to level from 70-80, you can explore all but a handful of objectives and complete every meta!

All I can figure is that the gameplay is simply so unappealing that players who dislike HoT want to spend as little time there as possible. How else to explain why 4 mastery points is such a barrier to enjoyment or why taking your time to explore a map is unacceptable to a so-called “casual” population that shouldn’t be in a rush to complete objectives in the first place?

I’ve been in similar shoes as OP. My first experience with HOT maps left me feeling like I am playing a different game than what core GW2 offers. I’ve adjusted to enemy difficulty, earned necessary masteries in gliding and mushrooms and now I can traverse those zones more easily. I also adjusted to how group oriented those zones are. I don’t like it, but if I go there I expect it and prepare myself for it.

What I still can’t adjust to or accept as good, is zone and map design. I would really like to know what mushrooms devs were using when they were designing them. I would like to try them.

As someone who hates jumping puzzles with a passion, HOT zones and especially how you are “forced” to travel them just reminds me too much of them. You want to get to that particular part of the map? You open map and after some time, when you think you have successfully decripted what you are seeing , you decide to use the road ahead of you to get there.
Nope. You have to jump on a branch, use glider to that mushroom, open a portal which summons Conan and after you have successfully paid tribute to ham and cheese sandwich and scratched your behind, you find a path to where you wanted to go.

I like gliding and mushroom jumping. I mean who doesn’t like to go “Wheeeeeee”, jump off a branch and spread wings. It’s wonderful. But unless you know where exactly to go, you will probably end dead or on a branch and no amount of map use will help you understand how to get back.

I, personaly, havent’ seen a map that is less useful. And zones look like they were designed with only gliding and mushroom use in mind. And all of that makes HOT zones into something that creates a perception of extremely narrow focus. Thus, we have those who like them and those who don’t.

How important are these LS zones, if one disregards the story? After you finish the story in these zones, why would you go back? Is there anything that cannot be obtained in other zones, the ones that are not behind LS paywall?
I am missing quite few of them and if the only reason for them is to present the story, I am not sure I am willing to pay for them.

maddoctor.2738:

alceste.8712:

I hope that Arena Net designed content for all types of players this time.

You mean content that is doable by the lowest skilled players? That’s not content for all types of players though, that’s content for those players, still not for everyone.

I think that means content that caters to low AND content that caters to high skilled player.
Imagine HOT maps designed slightly different. With a central, flat area that resembles core GW2 and all those roots, branches and whatnot above and below that central area. Central area offers easier content while all other areas offer content for “skilled” players. Not impossible.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

The story that comes with Heart of Thorns is permanent; no time expiration.

Living Story Season 3 (a different story/expanded story) requires one to own Heart of Thorns, and as far as has been gleaned from interviews/streams/etc. seems to be fashioned in the same way as Season Two…free for a period of time – available for purchase later.

I’m sure if there are any changes to the method of acquiring LS Season 3, the Devs will release an announcement.

Good luck.

Do you know how long this period was?

Sicarius.4639:

This seems like one of those issues that will be slipped into a blog post about LS the night before it goes live.

I hope not.

flman.6057:

More skins, armor sets, hair and faces, rework lazy reused animation, be less european, be less zergish, revive dungeons, make condi builds viable. And I will tell everyone that GW2 is the best for me and probably for them.
Until now it is korean p2p BnS, which really isn’t so bad for Arena, since NCSoft owns them.

Out of curiosity … what is so European about GW2?

GW2, yes. Hot, I don’t think so. It could be possible that even core GW2 might suffer due to changes HOT implemented.

PopeUrban.2578:

lorephoenix.9185:

So you have the choice to defend the fort or run supply. You can’t get credit for both in the new system. How many people are going to leave the fort that they’ve been defending for a while to babysit a bull if it means not yet to g credit for previous work.

That’s the whole point. Silverwastes was a “alpha implementation” of the new meta design you see in the HoT maps. It’s designed for players to coordinate specific jobs and chase the meta to get higher ranks.

The issue isn’t event credit. It’s that they didn’t update SW and dry top to use the new participation system, and increase the number/frequency of bulls so that “bull runner” was a valid role for meta progression.

Like all the HoT zones that came after, the whole point of SW is to create a meta the encourages and rewards players for splitting up. The bulls do that to an extent. If you see a lot of people and are pretty sure the fort will hold without you, the idea is that you escort a bull to the next fort. The problem is that the spawn timings for the bulls don’t concide with the beginning of defense repair phases so players have a proper choice of “do I stay and get my credit from the defense event that is starting, or do I go with the bull and get the same credit from the escort?”

It was never explicitly designed to be getting credit for doing both at once.

I don’t know what hey had in mind specifically when they designed it, but previous system worked better.
I am guarding a bull going towards Blue, but there is 5 of us in a group, which is too much for an escort. Suddenly I see “Help.Only two at blue”. If I am at the front of bull escort, I will definitely rush to help blue, and hope at least one other follows me while two or three stay behind. And this is just one such situation.
Such situations are what makes SW such a great map. If doesn’t force you to cooperate, it makes you want it. It promotes players using chat for something other than chit-chat. And it worked. For players.
Now, I am certain i will see more failed escorts or defenses, because people will stick to what they started, regardless of what it means to the whole event.

Pat Cavit.9234:

This is correct. It would take substantial time to fix and it’s not a priority for the company right now.

Sorry, I wish search worked better too.

Priceless!
Someone should make this into a meme. A web programming lead who wishes (!) his forum would have a working search.
Just priceless.

I think you should get rewards for doing just a part of a quest (not just tagging), but that reward should reflect the amount of work you’ve done on that event.

MirrorOfNature.4279:

symke.3105:

With core GW2 you had to be logged in when new story chapters were published. If you missed and didn’t log in in a certain time period after new chapter has been published, you had to buy this chapter.
Is this also valid for HOT? If so, how long is this time period when story is free?

Where do people get those kind of ideas? HoT is not free and it won’t be free. If you want to play it you need to buy it. The story related to the expansion has been out since the day of launch – 23th October. HoT is not an LW season, its an expansion. But the future LW season will be related to HoT, so HoT will be required for you to able to access the LW for free. Otherwise it’s very possible you will have to pay for the new LW season, just like LW2 required payment for those you missed it.

As for the question of the OP: Only you can decide if it’s worth it playing without the expansion or not. Different people will give your different advice based on there own preferances. I would say, yes. Its worth it. You can do exactly what you could before the expansion was released. But don’t let any opinions here swell your own. Go ahead and try for yourself.

I read my post 5 times and still don’t understand where you and two others found any mention of HOT being free.
So, I will try to explain it better.

Before HOT: If you own GW2 but do not log in when certain story chapter is released, you can be required to purchase that part of story if you fail to log in during first few weeks (months). Meaning that story chapter is FREE for those that do log in during that time period.

If you OWN HOT but fail to log in during first few weeks or months (those that already bought it but didn’t log in yet and will not log in for some time or those that will buy it in the near future), will you be required to buy it like it was before HOT, or has that changed?
If I buy HOT 6 months from now, will I be required to make a separate purchase of those story chapters that are new (and FREE) for HOT owners at this time?

Fhaeris.9237:

Yeah, setting (almost) everything to low has definitely solved the crashing problem for me. Done 3 DSs without any crash. It’s a temporary solution I can deal with while waiting for a fix.

Why should they? You just found a fix.
GW2 has had this kind of problem from the start and all they have to do is wait for players to find some sort of middle ground where they still keep playing. You just found it, which makes it almost like “It’s ok Anet, I found a partial solution which does satisfy me, as I can still play”.
So, why should they work on a fix when we ourselves found one and are still playing (and paying).

Terrahero.9358:

The road ahead

As we continue to monitor Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ on live, we’ll keep pushing out bug fixes and polish and performance updates. We’ve reached a point where these will come bundled together in larger, less frequent updates as we prepare for the activation of additional expansion features.

This does not bode well. For many people GW2 has been broken since HoT launch, and anet is talking about slowing down and pacing out updates that also contain bug fixes and performance updates.

Considering how actively they are avoiding to answer this on their own forum, it might be safe to say they are not working on a fix. They’ve had this problem since GW2 launch and it helped them to stick their hand in sand. They appear to be doing the same this time. Hoping those that have this problem (not majority by the looks of things) to fix it themselves or quit.

Core Gw2 gated it’s story chapters by the necessity to log in shortly after said story chapter was released.
Meaning, if you were not logged in while the chapter was still new (I don’t know how long that period was), you had to buy it afterwards.
I don’t own HOT yet, but am curious if this philosophy is still valid in this version of GW2.
If I buy HOT few months from now, will I be required to buy story or any of it’s chapters separately? If so, how long is this grace period where you get all HOT story free, included in the price of HOT?

With core GW2 you had to be logged in when new story chapters were published. If you missed and didn’t log in in a certain time period after new chapter has been published, you had to buy this chapter.
Is this also valid for HOT? If so, how long is this time period when story is free?

You are correct. We should give them as much feedback as possible as that enables them to find a fix sooner.
But, truth be told, if they are unwilling to post such an information on their own forum, why should we be the ones to present them with proper feedback. Their obvious ignorance of official forum should not become the norm we support.

fellyn.5083:

symke.3105:

What, exactly was so bad about dungeons that they decided on such drastic actions of disbanding the team responsible for them, stopping all work on them and in the end giving us the finger?
Was gold farming the only reason?

I think they had difficulty balancing them. Which I blame the down level system for. I don’t think the gold rewards had anything to do with it. After the first 2 or 3 times down a path in a day you weren’t getting anything worthwhile.

They had to make all but Arah so that they scaled with different levels and it just wasn’t working. If you went in too early you were going to have a really rough time. And at max level they were face roll easy.

So they probably decided to focus on content that didn’t scale which would allow them to keep things consistent.

That and they spread themselves too thin with all the living story crap.

I can understand them having problems with that. I think scaling is one the best features of GW2, but I can also see how much work it could require.
That said, completely stopping work on them is not a solution or anything like it. And a problem needs a solution, not sticking your head in sand.
I do hope they will re-evaluate their views on dungeons and what their role in the game is and continue working on them.
GW2 is a good game because it has so many different options to play.

What, exactly was so bad about dungeons that they decided on such drastic actions of disbanding the team responsible for them, stopping all work on them and in the end giving us the finger?
Was gold farming the only reason?

Godmoney.2048:

You think they dont care and aren’t working on fixes? You think they just don’t care about 200+ peoples lively hoods? I guarantee you they care a great deal.

Also I have crashed a few times just like I did before HOT.

The balls on people to assume a company with hundreds of people doesn’t care is just galling.

It’s not about them not caring. It’s more about them not caring enough.
Imagine game being unplayable or constantly crashing for everyone. Do you think we would still be without some sort of official response? No. They would be very fast to make a comment, ask for feedback or give a promise of a fix.
In this case, not everyone is experiencing these crashes, so their willingness to investigate and fix is substantially lower.
How much lower, is what is on the minds of many of those that are experiencing regular crashes.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Read this and scroll down a little and notice how much they have been working on crashes and then say that again.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-October-23-2015

Ofcourse they help you as much as you can, if you want a refund then they give you an option to refund. Even if it’s not your first option they give you the option, as comes to all crashes in game they are doing everything they can and more so they can not give you any more answers to that problem or just push a button so that you no longer have any crashes.

A lot of fixes for no results. Could just be a PR statement.

This time it happened while I was in Lion’s arch. First I find myself looking at my desktop, then I am back in Lion’s arch but without sound and many of graphic objects not showing (buttons, tabs, ..).

Agree. Maybe they will fix it when they figure out how to make some more money out of it. Considering how many people are experiencing them lately and no official word about it, it’s clear where their priorities lie.

Silverwastes event. I couldn’t even get to third Boss. It first crashed to desktop with sound still on, than after 10 sec I was back in the game, playing, without a sound or AOE effects. 10 secs after that I am looking at the most unhelpful GW2 screen, again.

Karka queen event.
Should I buy somes gems for these to stop?

Maybe this in-house economist is as much of an economist as an art critic is an artist.

64bit system and it crashes daily. I play 1-2 hours/day and am extremely lucky if I can finish Teq or SW events without one.
If nothing else, they should implement faster bug report and the option to return to the same map on subsequent login. This is the only game I know of, where players are forced to make a “non DC party”.
I am also very unlikely to buy HOT if this continues.

I think they put too much emphasis, PR and marketing on new skill lines. Core Gw2 never had that feeling of “I have to buy this game, so I can play this or that class”. It was (and probably still is) about the fabulous world and plethora of things to do in it. With whatever class and/or skills you chose.
With HOT it feels a bit different. Anytime anyone mentioned HOT in the pre-launch phase, discussion focused mostly on new skill lines or raids and that made all the hype revolve about it.
Now, considering raids aren’t even a part of the game yet, it is perfectly understandable that players see HOT as a ticket to this new skill line they’ve been talking about so much.
As I understand, ANet has an economist consultant for, I am guessing, economy issues. Maybe they should also employ a psychologist, for helping them understand how human psyche works.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Please do some reading.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diminishing_returns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

It explains what DR is but not how exactly it is working. Loot tables, for example. It’s one thing to know they are there, but another to understand them. How many there are in particular zone, when do they change? Do they change with every NPC we engage or are they bound to zone, sub zone or some sort of NPC group?
How long before DR kicks in, how long before it refreshes?

I can understand not having this information at the start of the game, when even devs themselves might not be 100% sure about the effects, but now, it just looks like “We are punishing you for not knowing, but refuse to teach you so we can punish you some more”.
Seriously, what is the official reasoning behind devs not explaining how DR works?

Chiry.5432:

Glad im not the only one noticing this Couldnt quite put my finger on it before but everything seems kitten now -.- I guess its cool for people who alrdy got full asc and leges etc… not so cool for the rest :/

Anet says: “Use you gems”.

Revilrad.1962:

OK. Listen.
- Doing CoF over and over and over again without stopping to amass gold, where your
brain is already dead andwa
- Running like idiots in SW to dig for chests, whereas you could do amazing VW event.
- Deliberately scaling up and failing events to spawn champs, creating trains out of this
kitten.
- Killing the Champions spawning at Claw of Jormag to get loot, instead of Dragon
itself.
- Epxloiting your way to end of ARAH or some hard reached Coins, and Selling it on
LFG.
-
-
-
I could count numerous other kitten, gold-farm oriented self called “hardcore” playerbase is doing to utterly destroy every move Anet does to increase playability. Every move anet does to balance rewards and try to broaden the spectrum of stuff to do around tyria, some player comes and kittens in middle of it by creating some “gold/per/minute” exploit, farm.

New thing is now people use endless waves of enemies in CoF to earn mastery points.

There is absolutely nothing, anet can do to make you happy. OK? You are not to satisfy. You just want more gold per hour, I want to play content. You would repeat CoF till you dire out of boredom and blame Anet for not creating engaging content.

If Anet would just increase rewards of new contentm you would shift your farming there and farm till new content is there again. Anet tries to get you out of your disease ridden CoF and encourages you to see the world by taking your toys and you complain.

I suggest anet to give 1mil gold to every whining “hardcore” player so they cna buy the kitten they want and get bored faster and GTFO here.

So, the only thing they were able to do was a nerf of rewards. Something like them making NPCs in HOT “challenging” by making them super powerful with god like HPs. Yes, this truly is a case of devs doing their best.

fellyn.5083:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Chipofsalt.4673:

…
1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
.

Clipped everything else from your post because really everything else you say is just to support 1. No one is going to disagree with you. We don’t need our elite specialization to play thoug HoT. It comes down to the majority feeling the Elite Specialization should be something we can enjoy the new content with and play though vs receiving it as an end-game award. The Elite Specialization is irrational as an end-game reward because the Elite Specialization introduces a new play mechanic that’s exclusive to Heart of Thorns. Unique items, skins, etc… make sense are end-game rewards a new play mechanic makes absolutely no sense as a end-game reward. It’s beyond irrational, it’s asinine and horrible design by any game design theory you want to apply.

Given the overwelming anger over this many of us have requested ArenaNet provide some rational as to why they have provided unique play mechanics for each class and then have decided to make locked down until end of game. They have elected not to address this question.

I believe they are avoiding the direct question regarding them being end-game rewards, because they know how irrational this design is. Everyone makes mistakes. Just like gating the story chapters with mastery level was a mistake which they realized and change so is the Elite Specialization unlock. The Elite Specialization unlock implementation a MUCH BIGGER mistake because it takes the aspect of the expansion many of us were looking most forward to obtaining and makes it impossible to play the game with that. It’s not acceptable design. It would at least be nice if ArenaNet would address the community and discuss their rational for the design, but they won’t.

I see the design as an implementation put in place to funnel players to the gem store store for boost items over the next month. It’s likely a strategy for raising profits for the quarter earning report and maximizing the utility of the expansion’s release to achieve that goal. Thinking about it, that is the only rational I can come up with and it’s a really back handed thing to do to your player base if that is in fact what’s going on with it. If they continue to stay silent about it and then a few months down the road it changes we’ll have our answer.

It’s not about what we need and don’t need, it comes down to core game features that alter the play mechanic and add fun/value to the content we were paying for. It comes down to common sense game design decisions regarding what to provide as a reward and when to award it. The arguments come down to a certain group of players who’ve lost the last three days of their lives rushing though the entire expanshion who want to come to forums and scream to the community “I don’t see what the big deal is” or “I love it as it’s implemented because now for rushing the expanshion I get to be the one of a handful of Chronomasters, Druids, etc.. on my server”. Pathetic.

Suggestion to more casual players
Give it so some time and perhaps give the PvE side of the game a rest for now. You can unlock hero points in WvW and you can play with your full Elite Spec in sPvP. There are options to enjoy aspects of the game while the PvE side gets flushed out. If some of these things were implemented to maximize gem store purchase at launch they will eventually change. While I think ArenaNet should address the Elite Specialization unlock questions if it is because of revenue never forget that we get ot play each month for free. So ultimately even if this is a tactic to generate revenue don’t hate on them too until it proves to be long term

They’re avoiding it because they can’t actually say why it is the way it is without admitting that there really isn’t all that much content in the expansion. Coupled with the fact that they ruined older stuff to make it look more appealing.

Point – it’s locked behind a huge grind wall to prolong the “experience” and to give people the illusion that the expansion is bigger than it really is. That is literally the only reason why it takes 400 points to unlock the new elite specs instead of 100 or however many every other one costs.

Which pretty sad. This current Arena Net is a shadow of it’s former self.

I haven’t played HOT yet, but after reading all these threads, I also got that feeling. Artificial barriers that are there just so players wouldn’t be able to finish too soon while players are left with little to no alternatives.

tico.9814:

Can we hardcore players enjoy our content? You casuals already had your fun for 3 years, now that content is challenging let me enjoy it, too many selfish whiners. Anet better not nerf anything but instead they should mimic darksouls playstyle. Let me ask a question to all the whiners why have a good combat if the content is not challenging? What is the whole point of an excellent combat system if players don’t use it to it’s full potential, hell they even gave us action crosshair mode, I am glad content is challenging now, combat makes more sense now.

Since you labeled yourself, I have to ask. What makes a player hardcore?

TheFibrewire.6845:

all the things in HOT is perfect.
…

I guess you never heard of something called “being objective”. I can understand you being happy with HOT, but to say everything in HOT is perfect … wow.

Swagger.1459:

this is the poorest design I’ve ever encountered in an mmo. If the design intent was to annoy the crap out of players then mission accomplished.

I’ll finish my ranger because I’m halfway there, then do Revenant and I’ll leave the rest to sit there.

I will not invest anymore $ on gems/gold for the three other 80s I have until this is changed.

But isn’t that exactly why it is designed that way? To make you use your gems in order to acquire HPs?

Smokin Dice.9103:

DoctorDing.5890:

Anyhow, getting back to the point. I fully support the OP’s right to cry about something that the OP considers to be unreasonable, even though it is not unreasonable.

Maybe the devs will see the OP’s endlessly bitter complaining and take the opportunity to spend the remaining 17 hours before launch reworking the whole game to meet the OP’s short-sighted requirements.

it is short sighted yes.. in the long run the system is great.. but in the early week of launch, what 50% of all people will do is ignore all content and farm HP in maguuma instead of ejoying it, because it is possible to do so.. and you want to tell me that this is reasonable design?
I can only say it again, if it was locked behind a story gate I would be fine with it, so I could play and enjoy, but the sole fact that you can rush the content to get it early is why people will do exactly that..
If it is possible people will do it…

Imagine how many of those attacking you now, will be crying in the next few weeks, when their brain gets down from all this anticipation high, and suddenly realize what exactly you were talking about.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Vayne.8563:

You’re ruining your own HoT experience. Anet isn’t responsible for that. Some of those points are undoubtedly for the skin anyway, not the spec.

No one wants the Elite spec to be their prize for completing HoT, we all want to play HoT with the Elite Specs. So for those who have not done world competition learning that we have to play though about 70% of HoT before being able to max trait lines and play the spec is infuriating.

As you will learn over the coming days, what the OP is planning to do Everyone else will be doing also!!! People want the Elite Specs. Yes we want the new maps and story narrative too, but for most the Elite Specs are the biggest part of what lured us in. Even for those who want the story a good number want to experience HoT from the beginning playing as something new. Most will hop on the train with players who jump in and do nothing but grind hero challenges for the first few weeks (or months for the more casuals) before unlocking their Elite Spec then go back and do the instanced story.

A lot of people don’t come to the forums so expect an exciting time on launch day, but by early to mid next week expect everyone to be hero point grinding leaving dynamic events that don’t award hero points abandoned and large chucks of these rather difficult level 80 jungle maps abandoned. Those who go into the game grinding hero points are just playing it as ArenaNet intended. They knew people would do this. They knew it would divide the PvE community and turn the game into a grind fest. They also know that’s what gets the most players pulling out the credit cards for the gem store.

I hope their strategy backfires. I believe it will and many who bought and have played GW2 because of it’s casual friendly, anti-grind design will either quit PvE or quit the game altogether. The flood of F2P customers that came on board in recent months will convert to HoT purchasers (if they haven’t already) they will inherit it. The non HoT purchasing F2P customers will continue to use the gem store. So boat loads of revenue will be flowing in from gem store purchases for F2P accounts and HoT grinders looking for boost items. This is what the changes are all about. Future content will be just as grindy as the PvE side of GW2 makes it’s full transition to becoming another trashy F2P MMO. Hope I’m wrong, but the patterns are pretty clear.

This is the reason I haven’t bought HOT yet. They are turning this game from something that I’ve been praising for years as the best MMO into an another generic, grind and gear infested cash game.

Derenek.8931:

ascended armor will run you around 1000 gold per set. If you have many characters you’ll need at least 3 sets light, medium, and heavy. Then, you’ll have to decide, berserker’? Rampagers? Knights? Sinister?

I’m not exactly sure how peple have the gold to do this. I’v played since launch and I don’t have anywhere near enough for even one se. I used to stress out because I couldnt afford a commander tag. Now we’ll be required to have ascended to survive?!?!? Grrr!!!

Well, GW2 has to somehow prevent Wildstar in stealing GW2’s customers, so why not do that by becoming more like it.

Berelious.3290:

I feel I should throw this out there, because for some reason it always seems to catch people by surprise.

When HoT launches, despite the beta weekend events to help iron out such issues, there will be bugs. There will be lots of bugs, some of them may even be game breaking. This is an inevitable occurrence, and should be expected by every single player in the game. At the time of launch ANet will have ironed out every one that they are aware of, but as we should all know by now there will be things that appear on the live servers that can’t and won’t show up on their test servers.

These should not be considered ANet’s fault. These should not be considered an insult to the player base. That being said, there will be people who will think otherwise. They will be angry, either because of their initial excitement or because they’re arrogant and self-entitled perfectionists that have no idea what goes into the development of such games as Guild Wars 2.

Temper your excitement and your expectations.

Fair point, OP. You are right when you say we should expect bugs. After all, we are all more or less experienced gamers and we’ve seen it happen numerous times.
But, to be fair, I also think you are seriously overestimating Anet capabilities. They most certainly will not fix all bugs they know of. They can’t, they don’t need to and they won’t.

We have to wait for HOT launch and almost assured perception of public that you will need more than one gear set for raids, which will bring qq and the result will be a tool in gem shop.

Seth.8906:

The point of this thread is to help people understand that Raids are not for everyone, never will be for everyone, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If Legendary armor is exclusive to completing Raid content, that’s a bonus to those players who are skilled enough, coordinated enough, and geared properly.

I can agree with raids not being for everyone, but who are they for? What type of player (wants challenging content, wants exclusive rewards, plays > 3 h/day,…) or character(class, trait line, type of gear, number of gear sets, …) are they for?

PopeUrban.2578:

symke.3105:

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

Further, you don’t even have to do boss 1 as long as whoever starts the instance has, but each boos has unique loot (the assumption is that each drops a different armor precursor in addition to its unique skins) so you’d want to do them all if you were after a full set of precursors, but if you don’t want the precursors and only want a specific boss skin, you can do just that boss as long as you’re in a group where the instance starter has access to that wing.

Does that mean raid LFG calls will also contain something like “Starting at Boss No4. Will skip others before it”?

You don’t have to skip them. They said when you hit the portal there’s a popup that says “go to wing 1, wing 2, etc.” so lets say you couldn’t make it to raid last week and your group did wing 1 and completed the boss.

This week, they’re moving on to wing 2, and you’re back. The instance starter (not you) gets a popup at the entry portal, like the fractal level or explorable/story selection that says “start at which wing?” and 3 would be greyed out (because the instance starter hasn’t unlocked it)

So he selects 2, and you start at wing 2 as well with your group.

You guys spend a couple hours, finish half the wing, and start having real trouble with a certain encounter, so you decided to hang it up for the day and go do dailies and have a dance party to chill some and chat about ideas to solve it. You all agree you’re free to pick it up tomorrow, so you say goodnight and log.

You are struck down with a massive cold and end up home sick from work, so you decide to try and PUG wing 2 to see if you can learn anything that might help your group.

You get in a PUG, but nobody in the PUG has actually completed wing 1, including you, so you guys don’t have anyone who can start at wing 2. You excuse yourself as you prefer to do W1 with your regular group, wish them well, and log to take advil and chug nyquil.

That evening, your group gets back together. People have a few ideas for some build and strat changes, you all feel good about it, and you head back in to wing 2.

Because the weekly reset hasn’t happenned, the half of the wing you guys have done (becuase you went back today with the same instance starter) is still done. You run through half a wing of empty hallways, right back to where you left off yesterday.

Luckily, your group is really awesome today and the new strategy pays off, you complete the encounter and go on to complete the rest of the wing, you get phat loot from boss 2.

However, because you, personally, still haven’t completed wing 1 you can’t insta-warp to wing 2. You’d still need someone that can do that if you wanted to just replay wing 2. However, since you have beaten wing 2, you’ll see that when you go to star an instance, you can start it at either wing 1, or wing 3.

Thank you. I appreciate the effort you put into this post. This makes it a bit clearer.

Auesis.7301:

Picture shows how far we got as a 9-man team, myself playing Daredevil. Our 9th DCd immediately afterwards, causing us to call it a night and to try again with a full 10 tomorrow.

Staff Daredevil is MONSTROUS as a DPS role in the raid. Should you require it, you can take Invigorating Precision to lose some Ferocity in exchange for self-sustain over time (which is key in this particular boss fight). Apart from that, going all-in with DA/CS/Daredevil and running a rotation of Bound, Weakening Charge and auto chains puts in serious work. On top of that, Shortbow secondary gives some fairly important burst mobility for this fight, as you need to be in a certain place at a certain time if another teammate can’t make it.

There’s also some really nice utility for this fight in particular. Burst CC from Physicals, nice amounts of Immobilise to manage certain adds and so on.

One thing to note is that with 10 people fighting a boss you don’t need Sundering Strikes as the Vulnerability cap will always be met, allowing a choice of Practised Tolerance instead to put your DPS up further.

If the next few fights require more group healing etc, we won’t do a great job of that, but we can keep ourselves up very well and do insane DPS while we’re at it.

I swapped to Daredevil and never looked back.

Does that mean only Thief’s elite spec will be viable for raids?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Didn’t log into the forums for a day, and I walk into this…

Anyways, let’s go over some of the discussion that’s been going on in this thread. I’ll take the arguments apart one by one to make it easier to digest:

Raids should have different levels of difficulty like FotM

No. Raids are hardcore end-game challenges. What’s the point in saying “I beat the first Raid Wing” when someone can say the same thing with an easy button engaged? There should not be the opportunity for everyone to beat a Raid. Either your team is good enough to beat it, or they’re not. Simple as that.

Raids with lower difficulty levels won’t reward as good

It’s not just about the loot. It’s about the accomplishment of actually beating the content. If Anet were to implement easy Raids and hard Raids, you basically kill the content.

I can’t do Raids. I’ll quit the game.

Raids are just one single challenge in an entire game full of Casual friendly content. Just because you can’t complete this 1% of the game, doesn’t mean the other 99% ceases to exist. No one will quit the game just because of Raids.

Designing Raids means Devs have no time for other content

There are multiple teams working on multiple projects at any given time. Once HoT goes live, the team goes right back to designing Cantha making other content. I wouldn’t be surprised if Colin already has people working on the next expansion.

Raids are an MMO trap the Colin promised there wouldn’t be any

No, Raids are just one more type of game play. Don’t like Raids? There are still Dungeons and FotM for you and your party to run.

I’m a Casual gamer, so I can’t play Raids

Not true. Raids are open for anyone to try. It’s not locked away from you. The part that will prove to be difficult is beating the end boss. But failures should encourage you to become a better player, and a better team.

Raids require me to have good gear

Yes. Yes it does. And that’s not a problem at all, since this is end-game Elite level content. If you’re not geared to walk into the hardest content available, then you’re not prepared to win. There’s a Gear Gate, Skill Gate, and a Mastery Gate. Later wings require all three, and then some. Think of it like that sign at the Disneyland rides: You have to be “this” tall to enter.

I think many negative views on raids are due to people’s experience from other games. They do have the tendency to bring more elitism to the game and are viewed as “disturbing” to the game’s general feel. Especially in GW2 where, currently, we have more relaxed atmosphere and elitism is more of an exception than the rule. This could change with raids, depending on how much work or emphasis devs give them in comparison to other parts of GW2.
I am not a raider, but I do intend to try them. But, as a non raider, I am still trying to figure out what is the real reason certain part of player base always demands (rightfully so) raids be included in an MMO.

When asking for raids, you can hear “We want more challenging content!”. When presented with raids, you hear “We want raids to bring exclusive rewards!”. So, what is the real reason? My guess is that most of them would definitely say “Both!”. So I have to ask, would you like raids if they were very challenging, but offered no additional (exclusive) rewards? Meaning, the fact that you completed that challenging content is a reward by itself.

My opinion is that such raids would generate very little interest, even among the most hardcore raiders. And this is where you see the birth of such elitism. It’s not about challenge itself, it’s about rewards in terms of gear. Something that GW2 hasn’t been about, until now. And this may be the main reason for players to be worried. Because of getting something simply challenging, we will get a gear wall and gear elitism.

I imagine we will get it shortly after HOT launches, but it’s probably going to be a gem shop item.

Palador.2170:

symke.3105:

Palador.2170:

Do you really need to swap ALL your equipment, though? Or will swapping out just some of it, focused on the right stats, be enough to get you where you need to be?

Wouldn’t that make those changes too minuscule to make a difference?

It depends on what you’re changing out, and what you’re switching between.

Change out your gloves and shoulders for something that’s only slightly different stats? Yeah, you won’t really feel a change. But if you’re a zerker, and you swap out your trinkets (amulet, rings, ect) for something that’s primary defensive stats, then I think it may be enough to make a difference. Basically, swap out just the high-impact parts.

I am actually hoping I will be able to do raids in my Berserker armor and weapons, and only change trinkets for more sustainable build. I am waiting to see what stat (toughness/vitality/healing) will be the norm for raids.
I just finished crafting my Ascended armor and have no desire to either repeat that or change my current set to something else.

PopeUrban.2578:

Astralporing.1957:

MissKitty.9054:

I think people are missing the point of what the raid is about. people in dungeons have been isolating people who want to be tank/support/healer in the group by kicking them then whispering them “go get your zerker armor scrub” or something demening like that. personally when I watch the LFG I see more post about Zerker lvl 80s only then Lvl 80s only groups. the raid i see it will bring more ppl out of the dark(tank/support/healers) an in to the light, so everyone can be appart of something. ofc the change is hard for ppl an most ppl dont like change at all.

Have you actually seen that last encounter? DPS is the key, you are not going to kill that boss if you exchange your precious zerkers for some healers or tanks that not only aren’t needed, but also increase your chance of failing the enrage timer check.

It’s still “go get your zerker/sinister gear scrub” but this time it is improved to “get your ascended zerker gear”.

To kill a trash miniboss.

In an untested raid.

That may be significantly overhauled due to the fact people actually zerked it in BWE-supplied exotics

If zerker is only for Trash encounters, how man sets of ascended gear will we need?

Nike.2631:

I think the thing I love best about this thread is that in the time it’s been running you could have MADE a piece of exotic armor and be well on your way to having a weapon done too if it uses wood. I haven’t bothered with final assembly, but I’ve made all the time gated mats for my gloves while following the drama. Just need helm and shoulders and one more weapon.

6 armor slots and 2-4 weapons. It just NOT that high a level of expectation from most people planning to be playing for a year or more.

What if you will need two, or even three different sets for the entire raid?

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

Further, you don’t even have to do boss 1 as long as whoever starts the instance has, but each boos has unique loot (the assumption is that each drops a different armor precursor in addition to its unique skins) so you’d want to do them all if you were after a full set of precursors, but if you don’t want the precursors and only want a specific boss skin, you can do just that boss as long as you’re in a group where the instance starter has access to that wing.

Does that mean raid LFG calls will also contain something like “Starting at Boss No4. Will skip others before it”?