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Distracting Strikes Mace/Shield + X will continue using Viper.
Balanced Def/Disc/Zerk Mace/Shield + LB can swap to Carrion, or perhaps Wanderer’s. Sage isn’t worth it.
Power builds haven’t changed at all.
Axe off-hand just isn’t that great, and 100B is extremely good in PvE situations. Axe/Mace + GS used to be okay with 100B → swap → Axe AA → swap → 100b, repeat, but these days going for damage traits outweighs the old benefits of Disc. + the swap rotation.
Axe/Shield + GS is still potent in WvW and SPvP, but PvE has been ironed out for a while now.
Don’t you think the MaceShield/Bow-Build needs some more stability?
I thought the same, and also felt King of Fires wasn’t as important now that Sword/Torch wasn’t involved. I swapped to Eternal Champion for stability and Smash Brawler for more up-time on that stability, and have been satisfied with the build.
Mesmers are still a nuisance, but Skull Grinder’s offensive condi application deals with them better than Flaming Flurry’s defensive condi cleansing reliability.
How are you outputting pressure on Mace/Shield with your setup? I’ve been alternating between Mace/Shield and Sword/Torch, and while Mace/Shield offers better defense and interruption, only Skull Grinder was outputting meaningful damage for me on that weapon swap. Sword/Torch might have less defensive merit, but I found its Mercenary damage synergy and reliable Cleansing Ire access more useful than the stalling potential on Mace/Shield.
The only one perhaps slightly worth using is Kick with Peak Performance in a Distracting Strikes build, but even then it’s very hard to justify since that kind of build benefits a lot more from Rage skills for the adrenaline.
tl;dr don’t expect any big revelations
using rousing resilience instead of cleansing ire will make it impossible to fight against nec or shatter condi mes.
I don’t agree fully with that. Rousing Resilience is a beefy heal, somewhere in the realm of 5K per stun break with the right setup. Meanwhile, you still have one condi cleanse every 5 seconds, a -2 on Torch 5, a -2 on Head Butt→Berserk and Berserker Stance to cover the rest. Cleansing Ire might help vs. condi 1v1s, but Rousing Resilience is massively linchpin in terms of general sustain.
I playtested the build and liked the vanilla version’s damage, but really wished for it to have even more sustain/CC… so I swapped Sword/Torch for Mace/Shield, fixed the traits to match the weapon swap (Shield Master and Dead or Alive), and swapped Mercenary amulet / Flame Legion rune for Sage amulet / Tempest rune. The extra healing due to Tempest/Sage is noticeable, and you can still get the Fire Aura+pop from Longbow burst + Shield Bash.
I won’t say it’s any better, but I will say I like it more. Will you be making a more detailed post if/when you get back from Taiwan?
I do like the build. There’s good synergy in Head Butt → Savage Instinct → Rousing Resilience → Adrenal Health. It has a hefty amount of sustain without sacking the tried-and-true Def/Disc/Zerk combination. It’s tempting to drop Discipline and grab Tactics/shouts for even more stun breaks/healing, but I don’t think that’s the right way to do it. Fast Hands and plentiful adrenaline are too crucial.
My one question is if you think the rune and amulet are min/maxed, and/or if you think Sage amulet+Tempest rune is worth considering for an even more defensive variant? Does RR scale poorly with Healing Power/Tempest rune?
Keep in mind Rifle 4 has Immobilize removal by default.
In my experience: unless you REALLY want to run Head Butt, Warrior’s Sprint+Signet of Rage+damage runes will give you more bang for the buck than Traveler’s runes. You’ll get similar adrenaline generation via Rage, but have an actually useful rune (e.g. Strength).
I’d recommend the following builds:
Zerg: Str 221 Disc 223 Zerk 113 (or 111; highly vulnerable to CC)
Roam: Def 211 Disc 223 Zerk 111
The second offers similar damage (Bloody Roar instead of Berserker’s Power) but has the now-buffed Adrenal Health and Last Stand (due to Balanced Stance buffs).
20% less damage, doesn’t pierce, hits for a whopping 7K if you go full glass. There’s no point in running this over the condition build in SPvP now.
It was fun while it lasted, but without piercing there isn’t much hope for Rifle even if you try for the Viper gimmick.
how can you manage a condi bomber like a necro ?
Good use of Sneak Gyro after the bomb is your one and only way. You don’t want to fight them head-on, and for them in particular you don’t benefit as much from adding cover condis (since you can’t cleanse your own bombs).
Pick your battles.
Want different and (semi)viable?
[P/P with Gyros] is very effective if you know how to use your condi application to cover burning. Also the build allows you to take a punch. Or 3. Can always stack might, + toughness bonus proc. It works. Not meta, but can beat metabuild in right hands.
I use roughly this build for WvW roaming and it does work. I personally use Sinister w/ Berserker runes, trade E.Gun for FT+Kinetic Battery and run Last Salvo over AA to compensate for the stun break loss (you still have Reactive Lenses, stealth and 12s Stability).
Place your cover condis (Pistol 235), stack your burns quickly (Rocket Kick, Pistol 4, FT34) and then run or pressure with Pistol 1. If they cleanse it, try again in 15 seconds (Pistol 4/Rocket Kick cds) or 45 seconds (Gyros+Kinetic Battery+Incen. Ammo cds). Use your Function Gyro to stomp.
Viper Rifle was something I toyed with quite a bit before MetaBattle’s current build was approved. The main criticisms back then were that it didn’t perform as well as either condi bomb S/T+M/Sh or regular 100% power Gun Flame builds, and had no mobility to escape from unfravorable fights.
In regards to your specific build, i think Blood Reckoning, Dolyak Signet, the Arms trait line and your Rune selection aren’t particularly good. Defense is an absolute must if you’re looking for balancing sustain vs. damage, as is the mobility from Greatsword or even Sword/Shield with Shield Master and Sundering Leap.
I don’t think Paladin is worth considering over Marauder’s or Berserker’s. Warriors already have the highest base defense and vitality, and our weakness is moreso to condition bombs and low healing, not raw power burst (2x Endure Pain).
I contributed to this build http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_Gun_Flame (IMO they went too glassy with the final version) and currently run this build for PvP:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJAURnMdA1dgVhAehAElilqADZx1ACAKZtGXO4d02antA-TpBFAB1s/g6HCAAeAAEcBAEvMADHBAA
The main draw to Strength is Berserker’s Power, and while an extra 20% damage is pretty cool for those >12K crits, you are cutting your standing time by over 50% by dropping a second Endure Pain and either condition cleansing (Cleansing Ire) or a longer Berserker Stance (Last Stand). Outrage is a neat skill with Rousing Resilience and Tempest runes, but IMO we don’t have much business running Rifle+Healing Power.
With Pack runes and Sigil of Agility (listed in PvP as Speed (PvP)), you don’t need Warrior’s Sprint — your team can cover your Swiftness issues summarily at the start of a round, and Rifle 4 breaks Immobilize without it. What you do need is high adrenaline generation, and our best source of that without sacrifice is Crack Shot. Since you’re not generating a ton of Might in the first place, Hoelbrak or Strength/Battle aren’t as useful as added burst from Air/Blood or the mobility from Pack/damage on Scholar.
If you’re asking about WvW, I’d stick with Strength as your traitline since your goal is to take no damage in the back and run if someone touches you, not to stick with it and force yourself to fight. Warrior’s Sprint and Signet of Rage help a little more there IMO. I currently run this in WvW:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJAURjMdQfHWFCehAnIWKCMjBwDIAo0FadZh3hbyd6C-TpRBABPcBAoZ/BAeAAkVGI/DBwGHBAA
Condition builds, Defensive builds and builds not reliant on constant Bursts could afford to stray. I don’t think the Gun Flame builds we see these days would change any as Crack Shot, +5 on swap and Burst Mastery are too essential to drop.
I tried the build, I understand the build and I like it on paper, but for dailies I prefer living more than I do killing people really really fast. Dedicating two utilities strictly to more damage drove me up the wall every time Shadowstep went on cooldown and initiative-dodges weren’t enough to outlast Immobilize.
I went back to running a Sage Acrobatics variant with Krait runes, Bandit’s Defense and Signet of Agility instead, and while it’s not the same kind of damage, it does have the kind of evasion and survival I like in these kinds of builds.
SOM can work very well in this type of build as a heal as each dodge and DB generates multiple attacks. With your build base is 185 which on a DB that lands means another 555 heals.
AOE stuff like traps/wells and Thunderclap [can be timed to hit you]. While in your evade frame it hard for them to hit you but they can easily predict where you will land and drop that stuff there. DB has little directional control.
Took me a while to remember what SOM was (heal slot: Signet of Malice). I run Channeled Vigor for the Endurance restore, which on a 16s cd I think is the better deal.
-You should decide whether you are running a power or a condition build. The daredevil runes are useless without ferocity. The sigils would be better used for condition Duration. [In general], you will rather spam death blossom.
I wouldn’t say this build wont work at all. But it will always be weaker than a ‘pure’ d/d acro-condi build.
I took the advice into consideration and made a few swaps:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFOhlOBGmCkmilriyLCygPYe6v+tv7myxAA-TpRAQBg4IAogDBQGOBATsMQP2fAAPAAA
-Guarded Initiation to help with clearing Mesmer Confusion and misc. conditions.
-Bandit’s Defense for a low CD stun break and 2s knockdown.
-Bountiful Theft since we no longer have as many interrupts.
-Rune of the Krait and Sigil of Agony for +65% Bleeding Duration
-Sigil of Frailty for an additional condition to protect your bleeds (after Torment/Cripple).
Sigils can be improved. The amulet (+1050 condi/power, +560 vit/healing) is IMO fine as it is for a condition build. There’s limited Poison, which I see is the main draw to Deadly Arts, but I don’t think it’s enough to trade away permanent upgraded Vigor with a meaty condition cleanse. AA3 sprinkled in (usually after knockdowns) and block/elite/steal to interrupt have been enough for me so far.
Thanks for all of the advice. It feels effective and more forgiving than meta builds, but also like a gimmick and in general slower at killing. I like it but I understand why it isn’t going to be a big thing.
(edited by Akira.5746)
I don’t main this class, I’ve just grown bored of the regular D/P Bounding Dodger DD build and have been having a lot of fun with this one for back-capping side points.
I’ve been running a Sage Acrobatics D/D Daredevil with Daredevil Rune for crits. Compared to Staff, it’s trading one trait line for condition application, condition cleansing and slightly clunkier weapon set with a cheaper evade.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFOhlOBOmCkmiFqiy7CGySornCgDYO77+wH-TpBEQB1b/BC8AAiwRAABnAACWGAAHCAA
^Distracting Daggers can be switched to whatever 3rd utility you prefer
^Bountiful Theft is also a viable option, especially if NOT using Distracting Daggers
Precision is completely unnecessary due to the rune and extreme access to dodges, but Ferocity could work better than the Condition/Healing Power on Sage. It’s up to preference. That said,
The following traits activate off of one dodge/Dagger 3:
-apply Bleeding/Torment, from Lotus Training
-guarantee your next crit, from Rune of the Daredevil
-Caltrops, from Uncatchable
-Vigor, from Feline Grace
-Swiftness, from Expeditious Dodger
-Regeneration and 1 initiative, from Upper Hand
-heal for 540, from Driven Fortitude
-cleanse 1 condition, from Escapist’s Absolution
The following refill endurance or initiative for additional dodges:
-all aforementioned Vigor
-Hard to Catch (100% Endurance refill and a free stun break)
-Channeled Vigor (plus 85 Endurance every 16 seconds)
-Signet of Agility (plus 100 Endurance every 30 seconds)
-Steal (plus 50 Endurance & 2 initiative every cast)
-Distracting Daggers and Impact Strike (plus 10 Endurance on activation)
Other points to notice:
-Every Steal, Distracting Dagger and Impact Strike will also apply Torment.
-Dodge and Dagger 3 can whirl inside Choking Gas for easy Poison application (after AA3).
-Upper Hand and Pain Response both apply Regeneration, slightly justifying Sage over Mercenary Amulet.
-Immobilize can be mitigated with Shadowstep, Dag3 and SB3 for its duration.
Overall, this build trades some damage from loss of easy Backstab access for a non-negligible amount of evasion, condition application/cleansing and interrupt access. It feels very much inline with the old “get every trait that buffs Steal” mindset, except now it’s along the lines of “get every trait that buffs dodge” instead.
My question is: what makes this build bad, or at least worse than what I typically see D/P and Staff DDs running? This feels pretty good, and while it won’t beat the best players doing NOTHING but spamming dodges as often as possible (don’t do this), access to this amount of evasion has felt more useful to me than the regular meta setup. What’s the trade-off here?
Thanks a ton for any responses.
You guys really went at it… is there even any consensus on the build itself? Feels like you argued over 30 posts for one sigil and one trait and forgot the point of it all.
Would the maths change any if I was running Accuracy/Cruelty instead? I’m still running Perfectly Weighted + Aim-Assisted Rocket + Air/Bloodlust since it went on without any agreement and an up-front burst is going to be more reliable for roaming.
Thanks for the feedback.
I changed the Scrapper minor back to Perfectly Weighted for the extra Stability and MM synergy. Still using Air/Bloodlust since there wasn’t any clear consensus on Cruelty.
I use the build for roaming solo or with a Guardian wingman. I used to use Sneak Gyro, but I didn’t often find it useful and get more out of anti-Necro moa with Rampage or the quick Might/Stability/cleanse/blind/knockback Tornado offers.
This build does have 100% Swiftness, as Hammer 5+HT deto+Acid Bomb+Elixir B when running to camps is already 17+17+19=53 seconds of Swiftness on a 24 second cooldown, enough to hit the cap in 2 or 3 reps— before combat.
I’m still getting familiar with the build, and while it’s not as boon-heavy as the FT variant, it feels more effectively simply because of how much stronger and safer grenades are (better damage, Cripple/Chill, 900 range AoE).
I used to run MM+Jugg FT in WvW, but I’m tired of FT’s limitations. FT is a clunky boon-stick that only offers a blast and a knockback in practice. I’ve been looking for something better, something that still offers 15+ Might and permanent Fury while bringing better damage and flexibility to the table.
I’m currently testing the following build in WvW:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhSsY7Ww6KQ+FLvF13QFhBg4F1EJB9uH8JPA-TVCEQBRRJWTUaAv9H2iSw2ojgAPIAHqMAAXQA/p+DpACcmF-w
which is very similar to:
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scrapper_-_Marauder_Explosives
The idea is to grab the essentials for Grenade Kit and Applied Force while still maintaining the minimum necessary defenses from traits. Elixir B, Super Elixir and Acid Bomb are our common sources of Might; in addition, 60% of all crits, Toss B, our stun break and both elites also offer Might for AP access.
Pros:
-has grenades
-doesn’t have FT
-70% Boon Duration without Leadership runes, Commander/exotic equipment or Platinum Doubloons
-high Protection uptime from your heal and runes
-passive 50% Quickness uptime on grenades and in Rampage form
-reliable 15+ Might with Prot, Fury, Retal, Swiftness after popping elixirs (Might maintained with food)
Cons:
-awful condition cleansing with no answer to corruption
-propensity to spam elixirs for 10 Might/Quickness
Questions:
-Is this build reasonably viable or is it just a gimmick?
-If so, what are the better ways to build a Grenade Scrapper?
-Are there any utility swaps I should consider to make the build more stable?
Thanks much to all that read and reply.
The Skyhammer cannon gives too much vision to the user. It needs to be in line with trebuchets, which put you far from the fight and limit your own awareness rather than the reverse.
The jump pads can be improved by pathing them the same way HoT mushrooms are pathed (forced destination).
Most likely, they were running the glass build and you had too many boons on you (+10% from Scholar, +10% from Bloody Roar, +18% or so from Destruction of the Empowered).
In normal situations Gun Flame will hit for about 6~7K each.
Necro-heavy teams are very easy to counter. They can’t mitigate damage, they can only absorb it. A meta comp with only one Necro is a bigger threat than Necro stacks, which are countered by Mesmer/Engi/Ele/Revenant/even Rifle Warrior.
It’s not JUST Necro.
We’re already pretty good right now… the Might and Vuln synergize very well with our traits too.
Not really keeping any hard tracking for Warrior this season, but I have been putting a lot of effort into the build/MetaBattle side of things.
I’ve effortlessly made it to Ruby playing casually as Rifle/GS Warrior, with Scrapper on swap to counter very bad team comps (i.e. I play Scrapper if there are more Ele+Engi than Necro on the enemy team; Gun Flame counters Necro, but is countered by Ele and Engi).
Warrior is a great class for counter-picking, but I wouldn’t use it as a solo class. Its flaws are very easy to exploit, and when two of the meta classes beat it fairly easily while only one is weak to it, the odds are against it.
This is the build I run, and while it’s not the one I posted to MetaBattle, I do feel it is the best version of Rifle/GS Gun Flame currently available:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJAURnMdA1dgVhAehAElilqADZx1ACAKZtGXO4d02antA-TpBFABiXGQ9DBQDHBACuAA1s/AAPAAA
The damage is about 85% as good as the min/maxed damage version; for that trade, you get 50% more health, far better Swiftness and Fury, more stun breaks, more stability, and actual condition cleansing. The damage is more than enough, and it’s not suicidal. It can take a more-than-basic amount of pressure.
I’ll let you know if I hit a wall with the build, but I think that wall will be more on the psychological side in Diamond rather than the build itself.
I assume you’re talking about these two builds?:
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_GS/Hammer
and
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_Gun_Flame
Said bluntly, Warrior is the worst PvP class in the game. If you’re new, playing Warrior won’t help you get accustomed to Conquest’s basics; there’s more to it than 1v1 or 5v5 in a circle, and more often than not things like rotating correctly, knowing when to run/stand out of the circle, and preventing the decap/cap or grabbing the decap/cap, will all matter more than how good your class is… but, playing the worst class when you don’t even know any of that, just makes it that much harder.
Gun Flame is the better build, but it’s also more unforgiving. MetaBattle’s take on it abandons every safety net Warrior has for more damage, and while that might work in a niche counter-comp setup (e.g. Gun Flame Warrior vs. 2 Necros & 1 Rev, no Ele/Engi on enemy team), you can’t count on that kind of luck every round.
If you are hard-set on sticking with Warrior despite everything I’ve said, I’m going to recommend you try a more balanced variant for about 3~10 rounds, and report back with how it treats you:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJAURnMdA1dgVhAehAElilqATJr14yBvj2W7sFZx1ACAA-TpBFABiXGohjAg6HCga2fAgHAABXAAA
Changes to note:
-Head Butt for a stun, stun break and adrenaline.
-Cleansing Ire for much better condition cleansing in Berserk mode.
-Dead or Alive and Marauder amulet for +10K HP over the meta build.
-Eternal Champion for rolling stability in Berserk mode (saves you your stun breaks; use Berserker Stance to counter Fear if Feared).
-Pack rune and Sigil of Agility for much higher Swiftness/Fury uptime and some Quickness on Hundred Blades.
Ultimately this third build won’t solve all of your problems even though it’s more defensive, but it will give you a little more time to process what’s going on and give you a better chance at either stalling in a 1v1 (you don’t want to 1v1, but solo queue teams don’t know that and won’t rotate you out to save you) or running away when the fight is bad (something the meta build can do— if you and your team are sharp about it).
Good luck with PvP. If you’re not sure about sticking with Warrior, I’d recommend Scrapper for a defensive/consistent melee class or Revenant for a very bursty melee class that’s more unforgiving if you’re clueless.
Oh…. yeah I had no idea. I thought my armor was included… that’s actually kinda strange, and embarrassing xD. I have been switching my amulet/runes/sigils through that panel however, I just didn’t know armor didn’t count.
Armor matters only in that you need to be WEARING armor for you to get your full stats. Otherwise, a full set of whites is enough.
Your build isn’t that great, and Warrior is the weakest PvP class in the game currently. That’s going to be a big part of why you’re being torn apart.
First big recommendations are:
Defense 212, Discipline 233. The vast, VAST majority of Warrior builds are going to use this combination, with the only exceptions being ones that use Rifle (typically Disc 123 in that case) and Shields (then Defense 112). The third track depends on whether or not you have HoT, and what kind of build you want. Most Berserkers will go for Zerk 133 for the Stability and access to Berserk/Primal Bursts. Otherwise, Arms or Strength is usually the third — Arms being the simpler of the two.
Secondly:
Endure Pain and Berserker Stance are must-haves, almost inarguably. Your third slot is up to preference, but these two will save you far more than anything else you can slot in, defensive or otherwise.
Three builds to consider as jumping-off points:
Base game, Hammer/Greatsword:
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_GS/Hammer
Heart of Thorns, Rifle/Greatsword:
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_Marauder_Gun_Flame
HoT video guide, Sword/Torch + Mace/Shield (not optimal but close):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4E2HhF92vQ
Other popular weapon combinations to consider:
Sword/Torch (condition amulet: Wanderer’s, Mercenary)
Mace/Shield (secondary swap, better with power amulets or Mercenary)
Do not play Warrior without Defense and Discipline.
good warriors don’t use meta battle. Bad ones should just go play rev. Warrior is too hard to play right now for people that need to copy builds.
What I wrote makes perfect since if you can play warrior half way decently. Warrior has no tricks. You survive and win on things like positioning, dodging, faking out the enemy. Every skill you have is super telegraphed and slow. you have no sustain outside 4 seconds of endure pain unless you use a shield. Literally all you have is your body.
So when I say good warriors don’t need meta battle I mean it. You need to have in depth knowledge of game mechanics and decent motor skills to play the warrior right now. No build is going to carry you like on other classes.
I don’t disagree— hell, no one has any business playing Warrior, Mesmer or even Thief if they want to win, but as far as I’m concerned it’s a gross exaggeration for a build site to be so desolate of support that they feel a stock GS/Hammer Warrior is still relevant yet Berserker isn’t. We have better builds than GS/Hammer/Rampage.
Warriors are simply not viable at the top level of tournament play or anywhere close to that. There are many great warriors players in those matches, yet they have to play something else to give their team the punch they need. There are good reasons why you do not see them in the ESL teams.
There is a huge difference between being viable at the top level and being viable in other places like solo queue, WvW, duels, etc.
Also agreed. But where is the line drawn between top level and solo/duo queues? Diamond, Legendary? Shouldn’t Berserker’s best build, one that has the best potential to reach Legendary, at least be on public display?
The first build is very close to what I use, but I use Paladin amulet and +stun duration in the mace. I am not a good warrior player since i usually play ele 99%. I wanted to try warrior and came up that a CC + rifle fits best. Its just dam hard to land the CC.
And why Viper? Just for the Gun Flame burn to max out damage ?
It was just for Gun Flame and Skull Grinder initially, but the build has changed a lot since then, in ways that better justify Viper.
A handful of people have started chipping in on the Viper Rifle build, and for that I’m thankful. It’s still just as bursty as it was before, but UNLIKE before it can actually run away and reset when a situation becomes bad. It’s ingenious, and compensates for Warrior’s weaknesses (11 seconds of immunity, then you die) considerably by playing conservatively with Rifle despite Rifle offering significant damape, and being able to escape when Rifle still isn’t safe enough. All it needs is two more Good/Great votes and there’ll be reason to iron out the Usage section.
Warriors deserve better than a blank FAQ and a lot of miserable veterans. The few that still want to help, can and should help.
I’m not here to argue that the class is in a good state. I’m just here to argue that the class is serviceable enough for one build to fill one niche and be rated good on MetaBattle. Right now, there are three Conquest builds on MetaBattle:
-a Marauder Rifle build with CC and cleansing,
-a Berserker Rifle build that’s very similar, but goes a little harder on burst damage,
-and an Axe/Axe build that’s mediocre at best.
All three builds are fairly neglected — either left incomplete or ignored by the Warrior community, often not receiving a single vote or rating. I know for the most part our community considers the class non-viable in tournament play, but ranked arena isn’t comprised of strictly tournament-level players. How is it useful for us to not even have an okay/serviceable build to point players towards? Don’t we have the basic trait setup down pat? Two stances, Defense/Discipline, Eternal Champion and so on and so forth?
This has been a bit of a pet peeve of mine for a while now. We should have something to at least gather around and work on, even if we know it won’t be the best of the best. We do have functional builds, and people should know about them.
(edited by Akira.5746)
berserker – inferior to every class in every possible way, worst designed class NA
B-b-but muh Gun Flame…!
Really no idea what they were thinking with this class. The immunity cooldowns, the self-healing, none of it adds up compared to meta and even mid-tier classes. It’s hard to blame Warrior for building glassy when even their “tanky” builds are often dumped on by Scrappers and Reapers.
List is spot-on. I don’t expect to see any Mesmers or Berserkers in competitive play, but I do expect to see TONS of Scrapper/Reaper/Druid/Herald.
Med Kit. It’s worthless.
Mortar and Bomb Kit get honorable mentions.
Updated the opening post. Shin’s build is really familiar to me — Mace/Shield with Sword/Sword (or Torch) seem to be the big melee weapon combo choices, although Carrion and Mending are very unusual choices in my opinion. He does make it a point to make a lot of disclaimers in his video, saying it’s fun, effective, but not amazing, and I can agree with all of those qualifiers (Mace/Shield and Sword/X are more fun than e.g. spamming Gun Flame).
Building to +1 in short to medium duration fights with strictly melee weapons strikes me as odd considering how limited Warrior’s sustain is, even with Rousing Resilience. The build might be functional and well-designed around the Carrion stat selection, but I can’t quite shake the thought that it’s not enough.
I did revise my Gun Flame build, and it works spectacularly in team fights. Mace/Shield works fantastically with so many amulets (including Viper’s), offering significant active mitigation and CC to resist some of the evade/blind/interrupt-happy opponents you might face (Thief and Mesmer come to mind).
Because of how vulnerable the build is when focused, I felt like To the Limit! was the most prudent heal to take as the up-front 9K heal is going to be more consistently useful than trying to survive a bad fight for 23 seconds for Healing Signet to provide returns. So long as you’re not alone or staying in unfavorable 1v1s, Viper Gun Flame can put in much better work “+1ing in short to medium duration fights” than Shin’s build IMO.
Thanks again for all of the responses. I like the class too much to just give up on it, even if I do main Scrapper.
I’ve been testing Warrior builds during the off-season to see how far I could take what is on its face a fairly clearly low-tier class. While I’ve had fun testing condition builds, gimmick builds and glassy burst builds, when it comes down to it I can quite easily outperformed just about every tested build on Scrapper, Reaper and Dragonhunter without much thought, and while I don’t personally prefer playing Daredevil, Herald and Druid, I know well enough to say that they are better classes in the right hands.
So, since I’m not posting this on the Tempest or Chronomancer forums:
-What approaches do you see Berserker relying upon in the next season?
-What can Warrior offer that other classes can’t, on a level far above other classes?
-Is there any hope for Berserker in a competitive situation, or is the reliability of the aformentioned meta classes too important to ignore?
Regarding my testing,
I had a ton of fun with Sword/Sword + Mace/Shield Berserker, both as condition and hybrid builds. There’s a lot of room for customization and fine-tuning, and I therefore tested the following niche synergies:
-Standard Defense 112, Discipline 233, Berserker 133 with Wanderer’s or Mercenary amulet.
-Dropping Disc. for Strength to run Body Blow and Distracting Strikes — absolutely fantastic 12+ Confusion stacks when it works, but suffers immensely from adrenaline starvation.
-Dropping Disc for Arms 232 and running Wanderer’s amulet — fantastic adrenaline generation and bleed stacking, but much harder to fight Necromancers with.
-Swapping CI for RR and Tempest Runes for a 5k heal every time you burst, with another variant using Berserker 332 for more less stability (read: more breaks).
-Swapping in Torch for a long cooldown cleanse and burn, but less reflect.
Of all the variants, I enjoyed the Wanderer’s Arms build the most due to the passive Signet of Might at 50%. However, in terms of consistency I suspect Mercenary RR+Tempest is the most durable.
That said… while I did have fun, I never felt like any of these builds performed well in a team environment. None offered the whopping damage you’d want to justify how squishy Warrior is, to the point where I feel the opposite approach will be more common in competitive play:
Rifle Warrior can get all of the necessary traits and utilities (Fast Hands, Cleansing Ire, Endure Pain, Berserker Stance) while still focusing heavily on offense. Crack Shot and Traveler’s runes can keep up mobility while increasing adrenaline generation; Viper’s amulet with Smoldering and Torment can maximize your Gun Flame damage; and with Viper’s Expertise, Hydromancy and Ice on Mace/Shield can give you access to 5 seconds of Chill every swap.
This build’s playstyle should be familiar to anyone that played Longbow Ranger or Shatter Mesmer, but it’s nevertheless one that’s easy to focus down after cooldowns are spent. You only have 15 seconds of Stability in Berserk mode, 15 seconds of Resistance, 8 seconds of Endure Pain, 4 seconds of Reflect/Block and two stun breaks instead of the typical three.
How much can Warrior really do with 8~15 seconds of unmitigated damage dealing? Which approach is better when both are softer than the average meta class’ build?
I’d really love to hear some input from stubborn Warrior mains. I hate the thought of a class being pigeon-holed into either a glassy newbie-friendly build, or a melee-heavy build that’s mediocre but serviceable (S/S, M/Sh). Gun Flame feels like the better choice considering it’s the only unique part of Berserker that’s better than what others have, but… well, it’s Gun Flame. It’s inherently easy to predict and counter even when you build to protect it.
Show me something to get excited about, if you’d be so kind? Maybe we missed something…?
Thanks much for reading, testing, and responding.
EDIT: Updated the build and write-up.
(edited by Akira.5746)
How do you feel about the following changes for fights vs. non-Necromancers?
Wanderer’s Amulet → Mercenary Amulet
Cleansing Ire → Rousing Resilience
Rune of the Krait → Rune of the Tempest
Nothing else. Just a few stat swaps.
The only time I’m in a position where conditions worry me is when a Necromancer is focusing me and Berserker Stance is already on cooldown. In most other fights, I can get by with just swaps and passive healing. The extra 4~5K healing on every stun break, with the extra overall damage on Mace swap (since the auto is strictly power) have been helping me more than the longer duration bleed stacks have been on Sword/Sword.
It’s a good build.
I came to roughly the same conclusions testing Distracting Strikes in the other thread. The last DS build I used was virtually the same , the only differences being big compensations for the big sacrifices you have to make for dropping Discipline.
I don’t think those switches make DS worth it over the regular Defense/Discipline deal (even if it makes Mace/Shield better out of Berserker Mode), and don’t have much to say in terms of improving your build— you can only do so much for condition Warrior in this meta.
Trying to make hammer work in a condi build is a waste of time. You are better off with sword/sword instead of hammer.
I swapped out Hammer for Sword Sword, swapped Rousing Resilience for Cleansing Ire, swapped Outrage for Sundering Leap and flipped around a few sigils.
My answer to the originally posed question is: no, M/Sh+Ham is not viable with Distracting Strikes. The weapon setup itself might be viable as anti-necro, but ONLY as a full power, Paladin + Defense/Discipline/Berserker build. The more conditions you mix in, the worse the matchup gets for you when they flip Plague and you have to deal with your own trash.
I like Distracting Strikes enough to keep suffering through the limited Adrenaline generation and awful weapon swap delay, but I think the other condition build is better for general play. Strength/Defense functions only because of Sundering Leap, Headbutt, Cleansing Ire, Counterblow and Riposte. Its natural adrenaline generation is too awful without it, so you have to compensate with those skills, and do your best with 15s rolling Stability from Berserk every 25 seconds and two stun breaks in that 10 second downtime window.
Thanks for the help, everyone. I’m satisfied with the answers I’ve received and think I’ve done enough experimentation. There’s nothing left to improve without abandoning the concept (Distracting Strikes + Mace/Shield).
As a 3 year old warrior I can tell you this: Warrior in this meta is horribly weak. Don’t expect much from any build you use.
It definitely feels that way.
EDIT: I’m struggling to make up my mind on what to use to complement weapon swap, and what sigils to use. Hammer feels really vulnerable despite the mobility and access to Distracting Strikes. I’m really fond of the Distracting Strikes trait, but I am having a little fun with the typical Defense/Discipline/Berserker setup and Lyssa rune for additional condition cleanse.
I’m about ready to hang up pursuits on improvement, but I do think there’s something worth pursuing in the Mace/Shield + Distracting Strikes setup, even if it’s not the best of the best.
(edited by Akira.5746)
Still testing and using the build. I like the offensive pressure of the above version, but have been getting a little more sustain out of the below:
I really wish there was a way to drop Defense and not feel like tissue paper, but access to 15 seconds of Resistance and 8 seconds of power damage immunity and a huge amount of Toughness is all just so useful, let alone the other bonuses. Traveler Runes, good use of Headbutt/Outrage/Berserker Stance (for Adrenaline) and planning out your weapon swaps makes Discipline a little more bearable of a drop despite how immensely useful Fast Hands is.
Defense/Discipline/Berserker with Mace/Shield+Rifle or Mace/Shield+Sword/X seems to be the popular setup, but I really do think Distracting Strikes with Mace, Shield and Hammer brings something meaningful to the meta (a Confusion + CC machine) compared to just average, consistent damage from Rifle or Sword/X with Fast Hands swap.
This class feels like crap. It’s frustrating how low Warrior’s sustain is compared to other classes, e.g. Hambow Scrapper. I don’t really feel like there are any possible meta setups with this class as it is now.
I’ve been looking for a build I could use for Daily Warrior wins since I like the class more than Mesmer, Ranger and Thief (even though the latter two are better). I’ve tried Shout builds, Burn builds, Stun+GS builds, but they don’t really feel effective — they deal limited damage, tend to get kited, and die very quickly as they lack sustain even when you build for sustain. I can’t shake the thought that unless Warrior is camping Rifle on the side-lines, it’s kill or be killed and you have to make your skill set work within that 15~20 second combat window of stance immunities.
With that in mind, I’ve been using the following build as sort of a frustrated last resort, and while I still don’t think it’s meta, it does feel pretty nice. (calculator is out of date: Mercenary Amulet is used, and sigils can be improved).
What it brings to the table:
-10 seconds of Endure Pain
-~20 seconds of uninterrupted Resistance excluding boon strip
-25% speed and high mobility via leaps when not Immobilized (see: Resistance)
-near-theoretical maximum amount of CCs/stuns/interrupts in Warrior skill set
-Confusion and Weakness up the wazoo
-multiple Reflect opportunities via Mace/Shield
Every interrupt gives the enemy 4 Confusion, Weakness and 2 Bleeds.
A Mace Primal Burst gives them 8 Confusion, 6 Bleeding, Cripple, Blind and Weakness.
You can refresh your Adrenaline twice every 22.5 seconds.
I still don’t think this is good, but it just feels so much more consistent compared to the Burn builds I’ve tried. The best defense I see in Warrior’s current kitten nal is a stun-heavy offense with a few dis/engage options.
Can you guys help me improve this build? Is there potential for a Confusion Warrior in the meta? And finally, can you direct me to the “What PvP build are you having success with” thread if there is one?
A great many thanks in advance for any and all replies.
I usually run both. You got to share the stability, you know.
Agreed. FT spam is okay when they’re in that 200~450 range dead zone, but only when they don’t have Retaliation… which is a common buff in this meta.
I use this build for roaming in WvW, since Slick Shoes isn’t as necessary there. It gives you the rolling 20 Might, Stability and FT2 burst opener along with an easier time maintaining Swiftness, all useful things in the open world.
Hammer is just an amazing weapon for SPvP. It’s hard to justify focusing your build around a mediocre kit like FT when the only thing it does better is give you buffs out of combat and auto-attack 5 NPCs stacked in a corner better than Hammer can due to its target cap.
Well you deal no damage with it so it’s fine.
Succinct, albeit an oversimplification. The build does decent damage… at best; it doesn’t do so much damage that it outweighs the immense defensive capabilities of the current meta build. I stopped using it, although I don’t think it disproves my original thought — that 100% Quickness and 66% Protection uptime is ripe for a niche build, just not this exact iteration.
For perma quickness to work, you need to be able to press abilities frequently that benifit from quickness a lot.
We dont have many abilities in that build, that benifit a lot from quickness.
Which skills in the Engineer skill set benefit most from Quickness? Shrapnel Grenades? FT1 was the most noticeable change in the thread starter’s build, but it’s not enough justification. Something that benefits more and deals more damage could change that.
It was fun, at least.
I’m currently testing the following PvP build:
GW2skills
Applied Force, when beefed up and padded with Vigilant amulet (the only Concentration amulet), Leadership runes, Superior Sigil of Speed, Alchemical Tinctures and Elixir U, grants enough Quickness in combat such that you will at no point in time lose its effect. With this PvP setup: Applied Force grants 22s of Quickness every 40s, Elixir U grants 13.5s of Quickness every 40s, and Sigil of Speed grants 7.5s Quickness every 40s.
From traits, buffs and Sigil of Accuracy, the build still runs a serviceable 53% crit chance and 1050 Toughness (albeit no Ferocity/Vitality). Also included is a rolling 20~25 Might, permanent Swiftness/Fury and very high Stability up-time (you won’t get 100% unless you camp FT, which is the wrong way to play since FT1 is awful).
A few other numbers to consider:
Toss Elixir B grants 9s Stability on a 20s cooldown.
Healing Turret grants 9.25s Protection on a 15s cooldown.
Camping FT (you shouldn’t) grants a permanent 2 stacks of Stability if you do hang onto it (you shouldn’t).
Optional Variant: swap Sneak Gyro for Elixir X for a permanent Quickness Rampage.
With the above in mind:
is this balanced?
Should we consider it balanced solely because a counter class exists (Necromancers and Revenants), when we have the capacity to stealth and outrun them while focusing on side points?
Is the damage so low on Hammer that the Quickness does not compensate?
Is the defense so low due to lack of Vitality that the Protection does not compensate?
Should we have boon slaves in the meta when Ranger, who had a similar build for one day with WHaO, had it removed overnight?
Yes, I am aware that the build has a very obvious counter, but is that really enough justification? This feels broken for how easy it is to play (camp FT out of combat, use FT2 in combat every 6s, else spam Hammer and use FT only for utility).
Your thoughts and criticism are greatly appreciated.
I’m having fun messing around with this trait. I don’t think it will replace AA for any meta PvP builds, but +1ing with FT/Ham is extremely effective when you have so much Quickness behind it.
My current PvP build is:
Firearms 231
Alchemy 221
Scrapper 233
Marauder amulet
Leadership rune
Air & Blood sigils
HT, FT, B, U, Sneak Gyro
It’s not the kind of build that can defend itself and IMO it shouldn’t try to be; if you want defense you are better off with the meta build— Paladin w/ Hoelbrak & AA is such a huge defensive boost just on its own.
Just don’t fight a Necromancer or Mallyx Revenant 1v1.
The one thing I think this build does well is that combining Blast Gyro with Expert Examination works nicely for an offensive twist when you also consider Sneak Gyro and Ham5→Ham3 work off the trait as well.
The build’s not bad, but I’d say it’s worse than the meta build in most ways. IMO most of the changes are (minor) downgrades rather than sidegrades or better — whether it’s Slick Shoes vs. Blast Gyro, Hoelbrak vs. Strength runes, Air/Blood vs. Strength/Debility sigils or AMR vs. ABD, they just don’t seem like “better” choices.
I run this build in WvW and it’s surprisingly similar to the one currently listed as Meta for Scrapper PvP Conquest. With the similarities as heavy as they are and with FT offering quite a lot when paired with the E.Gun, what is it about Inventions and Slick Shoes that trumped this combination for Conquest?
The only changes are:
-Inventions 232 swapped for Firearms 231.
-Slick Shoes swapped for Flamethrower Kit.
-Rapid Regeneration swapped for Mass Momentum.
(for WvW only: add Hoelbrak Runes and Lemongrass Soup)
The advantages are:
-a high damage blast every 6 seconds
-a knockback every 15 seconds
-additional stomp protection (Juggernaut and FT5)
-permanent Swiftness instead of Mecha Legs
-better Stability, Fury and Vulnerability up-time
-passive 15 Might that stacks out of combat, and more Might sources
The trade-offs are:
-no Bunker Down
-no Slick Shoes CC chains
-one less stun break for Juggernaut’s stability
-less passive defense, cleansing and healing from Inventions
While I do recognize that Inventions and Slick Shoes makes for a more consistent build due to the higher defense and CC, isn’t there some merit to FT that’s being ignored here? This seems like a solid kit setup that offers more burst potential due to rolling Might and FT2 to supplement Hammer 2, and a source of 4s Stability that only requires you to use said FT2 and about a second of FT1 for the tick.
Thanks much for any future responses and clarification.
(edited by Akira.5746)
I’m picking up Tempest again and want to run this thought by others with more experience, so I can know how much I’m sacrificing with this build and if I’m sacrificing too much.
I’m running a build very similar to the meta one , but with the following swaps:
Traits: Water -> Air (Fresh Air)
Amulet: Celestial -> Marauder
Runes: Soldier -> Durability
Sigils: Geomancy/Doom -> Air/Blood
I like D/F (and S/F) Fresh Air Tempest quite a lot, and have always liked more bursty builds in general. Is there any merit to sacrificing Celestial’s defensive utility to maximize Tempest’s damage? Are there any other swaps I should be considering for offense— perhaps Viper’s Amulet, or Rune of Surging?
There’s not much else to it, but feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!
(edited by Akira.5746)
am I missing something? It doesn’t seem to go above 12 stacks on its own.
If you build for it (Firearms 231, Alchemy 121, Scrapper 331 with Hoelbrak runes), MM/Jugg can grant you permanent Swiftness, Vigor, Stability, 18+ Might and -60% condition duration in combat, with very high up-time on Fury, Protection and Retaliation depending on your other utilities.
The problem is that only FT 2 and 3 are meaningfully strong compared to grenades or even the hammer, and while you can flicker FT every 3 seconds to keep stability ticking, you’re still sacrificing a utility, a few traits and a section of your mind for it.
It’s good for open world PvE and I use it for roaming with a friend, but Might stacks aren’t everything when we have better abilities tied to equally viable stun breaks.
I think it’s still functional at face value but building for it pigeon-holes you hard into certain utilities that, while they work on even grounds, don’t offer much cleave potential and will severely limit your ability to disengage (by about 100%). If WvW Roaming had a section on MetaBattle, I wouldn’t expect Condition Engineer to be above Great.
I think the most reliable combination for burns in my experience is P/P+FT+Rocket Boots+S , elite being either X (Moa) or Crate (stun + healing field + more med kits), with mandatory traits of Firearms 113 and Tools 211. Kinetic Battery Incendiary Ammo is, as has been said before, a huge boon in terms of burning people down. Additionally, the ability to guarantee a stomp in 1vX situations is invaluable and something you can’t get without S (FT5 only works if you aren’t being harassed).
In terms of digressions, Dire/Rabid P/S+Tools+S is tried and true with not much in terms of fat to cut away. It offers a good spread of trash conditions, the ability to apply them multiple times, and our best methods of mitigating damage while those conditions tick.
That said, the beauty in Burn builds is that they aren’t strictly required to rely on Precision for their primary damage sources (read: 15 Burns every 15 seconds) to be applied; so long as you have ~12% base crit to proc Incendiary Powder with one Bleed + FT1 or luck, you can get away with stacking only condition damage and defensive stats.
I’ve found more success with off-meta stats like Shaman armor + Apothecary trinkets than I likely would be finding in a more balanced condi build, because 15 Burn stacks + a knockback and mitigation will put in 99% of the work so long as you have the Bleed, Poison, Confusion, Torment and Cripple trash condis to hide them behind— which we do, and more.
There’s a lot of room to improve upon the concept, but the build is fun when it works.
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