Guild Wars 2

so, i hear that the dev team is making and effort to revitalise pvp and wvw and overall improve the game.
heres the thing, wvw is nice pvp, but its not guild exclusive nor it should be, but i want to have guild fights, that come with some sort of ladder and reward to fight for pride between guilds and in a way make guild members bond. so i hope they add this eventually. basicly, like in some other games. this fight would be like 30vs 30 pvp or maybe 50 vs 50. smaller than wvw but way bigger than guild spvp.
this fight would take place in a map aside from any other, hopefully they will solve culling and horrendous lag, hopefullly and when players enter this “arena” they inmediatly get to wear, the guild armor, even if only for the occasion.

as for wvw exclusive skills, that sounds awesome, may i throw some suggestions out there:
-from a certain amount of time spent in wvw—>be able to repair things faster, like, instead of a 5s animation of repair, get a 3s animation.
-be able to carry more suply, outside of the guild fort/buff
-be able to trade siege, i want to give some of my guildies my siege without dropping the box on the ground for some freerider to snatch it, i want to be able to mail it to the other commander when im off and the other way around.
-be able to pick up objectives for the npcs like the hylek, instead of having them just guarding a fort of thingi, actually have them come with you somewhere, so its actually worth it to cap the hylek/ogres ect.

as for guesting, sounds cool and paid transfers will i hope solve the server hoppers from making a difference in wvw.
id also like to say. YES!! for the achievement tokens, finally having a ridiculously hight amound of achievement points is worth something.

pls tell me what you think, and i will possibly edit this later on

funny bug is also accepted, as long as its not an exploit or it wont be bad for players(ie:dont show the way to glitch a dungeon because they will fix it XD)
i dont have a screenie, i didnt have time to take it, but i was on eb, on the harpies nest, and i was meleeing it, and when the nest collapsed i was inside and could not come out,no matter what i did, untill a nice mesmer portalled me out, but god it was so funny, lesson learned, dont melee nests

SAVE THE WHALE!!
misterious whales appeared around LA in preparations for the lost shores update, one was alive and moving, and ofc we tried our best, to no effect

im sure you all had nice, funny, hars or just plain epic moments ingame, this thread is here to allow you to post them. ill start off:

AND HERE I WAS JUST EATING A GHOST PEPPER WHEN THIS HAPPENED,. dang

ok,now this is freaking me out, ok, we make an update and we add new gear, im like..ok
but hey, lets add new conditions(agony) and im like….WTF??!!! that is a core problem you should have thought of that sooner.
and the thing is, i just finished farming my CM armor, which took me a lot of time neeedless to say, and now i realise it has been all for nothing because even if the stats are great and assuming ascended is not all that op over exotic, ima die to agony condition because normal exotic gear cannot mitigate it. kitten!!!!
anet, you have screwed it all

just dont get hacked.
but yes, extra security is a nice idea

Something needs to be done about the rewards of the dungeons. Because lets do the math. You need 23 complete expl mode runs to get the whole set of armor, let alone weapon/s. The oportunity costs are too hight, i mean you have to root and rot for hours without end to get a party(while you could be doing something else)in LA to find the first 4 pugs you find that are not completely terriefied of dungeons(like 99% of the people) and then(it took me 30minutes on primetime to find a party for cm, and 1h at late night as i usually play) get in the dungeon to stock really expensive repair bills.
So, with a dungeon, i lose around 2g that i could have earned if i was doing something else than rooting in LA and add the repair bills, an for what, with only 60 tokens you are not even close to getting an armor piece——> result=people hears “dungeon” and goes Hide beneath a rock.

In short:
1)fix the reward system to actually reward something. And chest look like reward chests and not junk piles
2)dungeon quuer: i want to WvW while i look for a group to cm, or do PVP which i cant because i have to root in LA. I mean, because dungeons are not so rewarding ppl simply gets put off and finding a party is HARD. Your predictions about party system have failed
3)my party leader is an kitten and leaves midrun, Dont kick all the party out because of one person, we can manage without him.
4)FIX THE BUGS ONCE IN FOR ALL FGS!!!!!!!

so ok, i got my exotic gear, and now i want to put on superior runes on it. but the thing is personally thinking of superior rune of the golemancer, but lets face it, its 120 tokens/rune, its 6 runes so 720 tokens you need for that, that is 12 runs, in short, you need to kill subject alpha 36 times, 3 per run= not fun at all

so i was thinking, actually the superior rune of the wurm may work, as i already have precision on my gear, i only need crit dmg, but then, i dont see them belonging to any armor set, and so far i have not gotten any rune drop outside minor runes sometimes in dungeons, same question with the superior rune of the dolyak, i want to know how to get them.

ty for your advise in advance^^

in an attemp to organise this sea of threads im putting out this one so that we can group guilds by server, so all the FoW guilds that feel like joining this initiative please post your guild information here instead of each one making a new topic.

template.
guild name:
guild tag:
your main focus: pve, pvp, wvw….
who to contact ingame.:
a link to your forums/webpage if you have.

ill start it off.

GUILD LIST

Guild name: The Blue Dragons
guild tag :[TBG]
focus: PVE and WvW, with some spvp
who to contact ingame: Beaucent, The Big Bad Blue(may be wrong, god he has so many characters with names so similar..), Lazaryen. Note: all the blue dragons members have invite permissions, so just ask for it if you come across someone from the guild.
link: webpage under construction

ill edit guild list later on as you post.

ty for reply, i will check the webpage out, but because b4 7-day-transfer was announced i had trasferred to pve with a friend i will now have to w8 for next week, im sorry, ill be there when i have another transfer available ^^

Are any of you up for HotW or CoE? I mean id there a side group that doesnt do AC?
Also guys this is a great idea and ty for putting it in motion.

Ppl are mainly put off by this being an excesive money sink. I mean what do you hace to gain, Nothing really if you die, you actually loose money with all the repairs, siege etc etc, why would i hop to WvW if im not gonna get anything from it, its just overall stupid.

I think its all right to remove the orbs, i mean. Flying players getting the orb??? Why do we need a bugged mechanic, it didnt really made all tht difference. If you think BL have no attractive now just think of them as free points, i mean i really Dont know how many points can a BL net, but lets asume is close to 100, are you going to let them go just because there are no orbs?
Everything will balance out at some point, so Dont worry. Until they get fixed bye bye orbs, welcome running players.

A question that i bet at least some ppl are thinking about.
Are there WvW queus on GH and if so how long are they. Pls answer honestly, everything under 3h sounds good to me, so i can take it of you say 1h queu.
Also, im a midnight oil burner, si im interested to know if there is any late-night organized guild with voip i Can join in case i transfer to GH.
Btw, great “poetry” bout batle there.

ty for doing this, great job^^

ill tell you a way to “farm”, which is how i earn a lot of gold in WvW.(if it doesnt happen naturally, you can always make a pact with a friend so he transfers XD),its also quite fun to arrange it to meet in the map and have a 1v1 as there is no dueling in this game.
the other server builds a treb, you just go to the suply depo and repair the wall, like that for like, dunno 30mins, then you find yoursefl that defend reward is given every 2-3 minutes, assuming its 2 minutes, that makes for 15 rewards of 3s each=45s in 30 mins Xd
you have to defend a big keep or sm XD

just kidding,the real way to make gold are dungeons, if you go with a guild group, like me, you at most die 2 times or so, that is 3s on repairs, and you earn 20s per run, taken we clear em in 30-50mins explorable mode, its quite profitable, and you get the tokens to get new armor.
ofc, the most efficient way is and always will be is playing the market or farming, but i try to have fun while earning money.
about the dyes, it was like a boom upon release, now too many ppl have tried and prices have gone down, so its not all that reliable any more.

“I completely agree, WVW could simply be one big Keep siege right now. Everything is a huge safe battle. there is not much incentive to run in a small group, and take other objectives.”

no no no, there is an incentive, when i run around with out 10 man guild (8 online) we split into 2 parties and capp everything, camps, towers and sometimes even bay. in the end, we checked it once, we as a small group earned more karma and money than following the zerg, and as we had speced our traits to match the others someone very rarely dies, so there is an incentive for small group organisation.
about non-ressing, thats the essense of this game, teamplay, if we are just gonna walk over people then why would you even join a zerg, go solo stuff if you think you should not be helped or help others.

bows? NO
crossbows? uhm, maybe.
hammers??NO

golem arm that shoots bolts (like samus aran from metroid): HELL YES!!
thats as far as ill go. maybe some new kit would do, like dunno elemental “botles” that give u 5 new skills, like the wind “botle” would be #1 hit with wind blade #2 release twister…..etc etc etc

may i ask if there is any armor set out there with power, toughness and condition damage??, because that would be just perfect. but im starting to doubt it even exist,

ty both for your replies they really helped, yes i already run grenades for wvw, they are just op for keep defense, as well as atck.
ty for helping out, any other, feel free to keep posting your opinion. its always nice to know what u guys think ^^
thx again

i understand that because you are a commander and live on a zerg you do not have to worry about your 1v1, or your 2v1 skills, but i have to as part of a ninja group, so if you must have turrets let it be net turret and get the elixir R(i think) that will allow you to dodge 4 times in a row if used properly, usefull if you dont want them nuking you all the time, as for all the other stuff, i have to agree with you its a pretty neat build.

So, i bought a dirty cheap set of exotic armor in the TP, its the carrion emblazoned set (power, condition dmg and vitality). i just got it as a temporal solution to my undergearness, which has been solved thanks to this, but it was never meant to be final.

My main focus is WvW, thats why i bought it, because loot was not good enough and armor, like it or not, does make some difference in WvW.
My question here is, what set should i farm/buy/get by any means now?? taken its for WvW?, im doubting between Honor of the Waves set(precision, toughtness, condition dmg) and just about any other set out there. i really apreciate precision, but it doesnt make sense without crit dmg boosters, and i think out condition damage is already quite bad to let go on condition damage stats, but i really dont know what to do. personally, im more of a tankish type, i dont really feel any love for glass cannons, and would like something that is mildly survivable.(trust me, theres already enough glass cannons out there among FoW, no offense, its just that they are sooooooo squishy)

so, let me know your opinions on what stats should i look for in an armor, taken its for WvW. also let me know the way to get it (ie: temples, dungeon…) do not take out dungeons straight out because if not for stats ill surely end up farming one of them for the skins (thats how masochist i am XD)

ty for your advise in advance ^^

thing here is, ok, engineers dont to half as much damage as any other class, let alone glass cannons, even then, i manage to get a 2k non-crit with every dart volt alley( or however thats called,) which i think its ok taken im on a full condition damage build being hiper tankish, so i dont expect raw power. BUT really, i got a full condition damage necromancer as well and its just not fair the amount of damage it does compared to my condi dmg engineer, its sheer damage, well engineer is a litle behind in that aspect. but overall, no, condition damage will not close the gap between damage you make with raw power and condis, but at least condi damage fits a litle better in not-so-glass-cannons builds.
its all up to you, i have always been a dot lover, no real reason.

I really Dont feel like creating Another guild. But im up for farming Honor of the Waves and Crucible of Eternity. I can spec into full support or full offense any time. So i Dont think thats a problem.
Hit me up if interested. (Got Voice comms)

Fully geared lvl 80 engineer. If you are still recruiting hit me up. Lazaryen.
Im up for any dungeon but im specialy interested in HoW and CoE. Just pm me. Got almost evrysingle voip there is. Available on noons and diong weekend

so, yesterday while running a dungeon, i got this message < new build available, your client will restart in 3h> my party members got the same message.
then i finished the dungeon and a while later my client restarted, installed a couple of files and launched again. cool.
i open the game and after like 10 minutes an error pops up <network problem…your client cannot find an internet connection…(well, the error that pops up when you dc)> and immediatly after the same window with this message <not found>. as i was unable to play and i had to go, i just closed the game, when i try to open the game today, not even the client launches and not happy with that this message appears in a notes file in my desckop`<App: Guild Wars2.exe
Fatal error (3): Failed to commit memory from the OS (code 1455)
When: 10/27/2012 12:10:50
File: ..\..\..\Core\Platform\Windows\Exe\ExeMemFlexible.cpp(252)>

so, after all this series of unfortunate events, i find myself not only pissed off but unable to even launch the client.

best place, WvW, like 3 rich nodes just on the corner of the spawn, and ALL of the nodes are candy, havent found any other mat yet. and yes i killed a guy and he dropped candy corn as well, uhm, candy.
and even if not as efficient as other farming places at least is funnier :P

i dont have any of this problems, but im a norn female engi, so may be only to other races. geez that must look weird. thought ive reported so much floating stuff lately (rocks, sand bags, npcs, quest items…) that i can totally believe that, seems like this guys have a problem with floating stuff.

by net i mean, earn money, because, yeah, u get money but half the time the vabbi zerg us in like 20v4 situations and then broken armor, lets spend money on repairs, lets spend money on siege, and when you do that, well you are out of all the cash you can have possibly earned, thats what annoyes me.
WvW is quite an expensive game to play, hell its so kitten FRUSTRATING!!!

ok, so first off, the WvW in our server is not encouraged at all, because we are so outnumbered that people just rage quit, but even WvW hardcores like me that play every day and focus on that aspect of the game are sort of put off some times. like, if you take a camp—>1s
a tower—>1-3s
a keep—>5s
sm—-> 7s?
so, its not like you can earn a lot of money, certainly a lot lesss than in pve, taken that you get zerged to death and spawn camped 99% of the time and have to pay 1s every time you die, so you either award more money or flat out remove armor degrading in WvW, because right now it doesnt net any money(well, not any, but if im gonna earn 1s/hour id rather kitten up and do pve to earn 1g/h)and that discourages a lot of new and old player that want to have fun and earn money at the same time.

This is “let me get this out o my sistem” thread/post.

On the past weeks FoW and RoS had been fighting Dzagonar(or whatever the correct spelling is) and getting brutally overwhelmed by its sheer amount of population from day 1 of the matches. We couldnt do anything without a 100 ppl zerg coming after us.
Spawn camping with AC and ballistas from day 1. So you couldnt even get out of the spot to start doing something productive.
(Rageeeeee)

As of today. in Vabbi vs FoW vs RoS
We are so happy, we got even servers, after 3 days batle we are even, and not 1 server dominating the other 2. Yea its challenging. But we are soooooo excited. In RoS ppl are starting to get back to WvW because they feel they have a chance. Server morale is growing so fast(theres still a lot of rage-quitters to come back, but slow ley and surely we are coming back)

(Utter happiness)

If theres any Vabbi, FoW, RoS reader out there, just one last thing. I Hope we all give everything we have out there, as im so excited about this. This is how wvw should be.

Ok. So i hit lvl 80 (quite a long time ago) and i was thinking of getting the lvl 80 exotic armor.
I Dont like crafting so thats not an option.
I want to know Your opinion on which one of the following is moré conveniet(and add ur suggestions pls)

A) dungeon armor- caudecus.
B) wvw badge armor.

Taking this 2 are suicide attemps. Just tell me the one you think is less masochist.
Accepted advise on which one looks better( got transmutation stones to spare)

Being the blue arrow on the map doesnt mean ppl likes you or that you have any leading skills, it only means you have money.
Ex: in RoS we have 1 good commander and 1 good leader. And we have like 4 other commanders that think that just because they send 100g down the sewer they can bark and ppl will listen. Well, no. Those 4 are always barking orders but no1 follows em. The server follow a Nice leader thats not even a commander during daytime and the good commander during night-time( due to them switching confortably with their timezones)

So. Spending 100g doesnt assure you you Gil get ppl to like you. You will only be a light in the darkness for “autist” ppl that doesnt bother to ask/give info. So you wont have ppl following you, only dogs.

Each dungeon has its own tipe of tokens. So farming a different dungeon will give you tokens but from a different armor set. Not profitable.

im on my way to craft my pistol legendary for my engineer, ill do a vid and post once i have it. but itll be a long long long way so its not anytime soon (mainly becuase of the fact that im broke ,ingame, now and i have to study for exams)

Same problem with Ruins of Surmia/fissure of woe and the obvious leader week after week dzaganur ( ir who ever thats spelled)

Uhm. Im looking for a tourney team as well.
Im still tweaking the build and got to learn and adapt to te latest updates+timetable so i still got a lot to learn and im up to join either a just for fun tourney team or a hardcore team(assuming you want me in)
I started pvping 3 days ago so im a lvl 8 rank. My main is an engi. Running a hiper-survivable point-holder build with bomb/net turret and elixir S/rocket or Thumper turret. As for Your questions.
No. I Dont tend to call any1 scrub. Yes i have an ele and warr alts.
I tend to be quite cooperative. Usually on at about 6-8pm on the week and from then to late night (4am) on the weekends( by this i do not mean im playing 10 h,i mean that my online span time is from 6pm-4am, may get on early, may be on from 1-2am….)

Im in Ruins of Surmia so just let me know what are Your thoughts in the matter.

Lazaryen-lvl 80 engi.

ok ok gms, i know you are not taking this into account so im doing the work 4 u.

there is a huge problem in WvW, the game matches servers by score, but like it or not score is determined by population of the server, no matter how good a server may be if its 1v200. and in the end, because of hopelesness and people giving up, WvW in this servers end up dead.

so, this are some solutions we came up with(various ppl contributed to this im just gathering it up).

1) Population Balance: yes i know this sucks, but the first( and probably most effective) would be to plainly force people to move servers, ofc, this sucks, so you MUST give compensation to any player that volunteers to change server

2) guilds: we know things are not achieved 1 by 1, so maybe as an incentive for whole guilds to move servers they should get some sort of influence gain boost or something, only temporal ofc, but that would compensate the losses that they may endure because of server change(if there is any)

3) ok, the first 2 suggestions are uthopic, i know. so here comes the last and maybe best.
players that transfer servers for FREE have to move to a lower ranked server than their original server. ofc, if you pay you can choose, it would suck if you coudnt.

give your ideas on this, because really, our server Ruins of Surmia, is an underpopulated server that isnt going anywhere and people will not hold up for another 2 weeks in this situation.

piercing bullets on the pistol are great 4 wvw, you should see the cloud of numbers of dmg with only autoatcking, that sweet
also, grenades are good, you can either use them for fort defense or assault,mortar skill rocks, tho the mortar dies fast if you get targeted(which u usually do, bcuz ppl just panic when they see the mortar, dont know why XP
bombs are good too, you should see big ol bomb on a bridge fight XD every1 just gets knocked down the bridge besides they provide dmg and nice cc, use em on mobs and melees.
but overal, i recommend u go to the mists, play with the builds and spend some time kicking the dummies that are packed together and tweak the build as you see.

I think thats the case why most players get bored with the class asap. Or araund lv 40-50 ish.
Or the reson why so few play it at all.

erm, i play a lvl 80 engi, i have 2 alts, a guardian n a necro, but god, im hooked to the engi, its so versatile..
This is not really an issue only a personal idea, but i think : Giving options to reskin ( or options to unlock them) weapons used when using a kit should be given.
-Devs remember, Enginers use kit weapons mostly, unlike the most classes, and they cant pick a new look for those weapons by simply equipping or reskinning them, like in most cases. And thats another reson the class is in a bit disadventage
agree
-Personally i would also make a lot more skins for Turrets to.
well, i dont really care, im usually 80% of time in pvp, and i dont run turret build, just use the net turret, and i think it looks fine,but if u want…why not i guess

also, ill add, i think you(anet) nerfed engineers too bad, i mean, every single time i find a build capable of pvping, oh its op, lets nerf it
cough cough
removing res from elixir gun(i mean, that was a lil op, but you should have increased cd instead of removing it)
removing cc from flamethrower and stability.(and now we have a completely useless kit)
vigor/boons from toolkit(that is an useless kit now, bcuz the only use it had was gaining boons when swithching to it)
overall, i think the engi got way too nerfed and thats the main reason why ppl dont play it, fortunately 4 u, im too hooked to it and love challenges too much to change to another class, but man, no matter, i found yet another build to kick kitten in spvp.^^

so, there are a lot of lil topics here, so lets get started.
-unfair fights: really, is it reasonable that if i play 10 hot-join matches in a day, i dont get a single 1v1/1v2 in any of them?? maybe you can put like a lil buff or smthing, like if u 1v3, if they kill you they wont get 5 points but 3 or so, dunno, just suggesting. also, zerging around doesnt promote skill, i mean, i still see a lot of nabs, that root in place, but hey, they got the zerg with them, so no skill needed. but well,lately i barely get to hot-join pvp, usually i get into tpvp with my team
-combos: how can u expect ppl to do combos when they dont even talk they just zerg, combos are for pvp teams with voice comms (hehe, thats what makes us incredebly effective)
-just a matter of time…. i guess, maybe ppl needs more time to learn. im also quite frustrated bcuz, you see a lot of guardians/warrior/thiefs running around with the same build, cmon guys thats boring, think of something better, make you own builds!!

coglin.1496:

Well it is bad to compare them to mesmer illusions anyway. They function completely different. Turrets will attack any enemy, while illusions are specific to the enemy they are cast on. They die when destroyed, the enemy they were cast on dies, or if a 4th one is cast, regardless of what the mesmer does beyond that.

Its not like im comparing. It because it was on a fight with a mesmer that i first noticed this. Which i hadnt noticed b4.
If you say this doesnt happen anymore then its been fixed, but i wanted to ask just in case i might do a net turret-kit build 4 PVP instead of kits/elixir.

So. I noticed this some weeks ago(may have been fixed but as i no longer run turret engi i Dont know if it has) that.
When the mesmers go into downed mode their illusions are still alive. Like y they keep atcking. With the engineer once you go onto downed state Your turrets go down. I mean turrets are already quite nerfed we Dont need em THIS nerfed.
I think its the same with necros and mininos but about this last one im not too sure.
So either the ilusions from mesmers shatter when they go into downed mode or our turrets keep firing when we are downed.
Again. I havent tasted this lately so it could be its fixed already.

So. I noticed this some weeks ago(may have been fixed but as i no longer run turret engi i Dont know if it has) that.
When the mesmers go into downed mode their illusions are still alive. Like y they keep atcking. With the engineer once you go onto downed state Your turrets go down. I mean turrets are already quite nerfed we Dont need em THIS nerfed.
I think its the same with necros and mininos but about this last one im not too sure.
So either the ilusions from mesmers shatter when they go into downed mode or our turrets keep firing when we are downed.
Again. I havent tasted this lately so it could be its fixed already.

Trinciapolli.7630:

SPvp:

WvW:

You go there, get the most possible points you can just to get kinda stupid pve buffs for the time remaining until the weekly matchup ends. You don’t go to destroy their fortress or move forward to destroy their bases or things such that, you just go there and go fight for your server to obtain what at the end of the week? nothing? Then what reward should make people join WvW? actually nothing, because u get mostly exp + karma points + some money, while it would be better to see wvw counter/points instead of karma points even if wvw is connected to pve.

Also, id reward more silver for objective completition, its one og the things that puts ppl off wvw, i mean, i get killed, got to pay repair, got to buy quite expensive siege…and i only earn 4s in a tower assault?? really??
what if im a lvl 1 player that has not enough silver to spare?
well, thats that, fix it pls, cuz we are already low population on our server an ppl are quitting wvw bcuz of that.

edit: its not kitten its fu**. but its censored, they could just use * instead of putting kitten to everything

So:
-“walking is a pain”: well, thats the point, there has to be some difference between those that spend tones on upgrading keeps than those that dont spend a penny, if you want to move faster, build waypoints. that will pay off in the future cuz you can move large groups of ppl faster.
-“finish em off”: maybe is not that much of a needed mechanic but man, it is satisfying to cruely stomp ppl after a 10 min fight with that mesmer…well you get the picture.
-“squads”: yes i think parties should allow more members, because even if you have voice comm, is much easier to see ppl in the map.
-“mobs have no place in wvwvw”: agreed, but jumping puzle doesnt either, wvwvw is pvp, so let the blood run!!
-queues are too long on the server, i started playing off in desolation,and you would have 4 or more hours queus, so bcuz of that i moved to ruins of surmia, in which up to the date i havent queued not even once yet.(bcuz is an underpopulated server that too)

well thats my opinion. also a quick offtopic thing, i think servers should be matched not only for score but population as well, i mean, we fight a german server that has a ton more ppl than we do. yesterday we managed to get a 70 ppl mass zerg, and we thought, we rock, but then..kitten 120ppl german zerg wiped us all. i mean, i get wvw is unbalanced pvp, but really, we should at least get a chance.

personal here. i think med pack is great because, hell its much more complete, it removes conditions, heal and grants swiftness.
BUT. what happens when you backpedal??!! your dead because you dont get to step on the med packs. thats a problem(suppose you cannot set the packs on advance, that you are on a rush).
personally, for me on spvp: i get the turret and the elixir R?(the one that turns all conditions into random boons)
so if i come across a condition dmg guy i just let conditions stack then use the elixir. which is, way more efective than just removing conditions, becouse, hey you get an extra advantage there. and the turret because then i can detonate it and push ppl off the point, something you cannot do with med packs.
again, personal opinion. but i really did learn a lot from this thread, so keep it up^^