Guild Wars 2

Rednik.3809:

You don’t like Ascalon downfall – fine, but stop trying to rewrite game lore around your headcanon.

Ad hominem plus Appeal to emotion, two logical fallacies in one post. A discussion in lore is done by exchanging opinions, arguments and proof for the latter. How about some arguments from you?
Headcanon, funny.

Kalavier.1097:

Even soldiers know that sometimes, defending an area is pointless. Ascalon was ruined. It’s borders closed by Adelbern’s isolation.
You would rather stay in Ascalon in that condition, instead of seeking a better life that isn’t besieged by Charr daily? Instead of clean rivers and grasslands, ash covered wastes and tar for children to play in?

The purpose of the Krytan ambassador was most likely to lure the Ascalonians to Kryta so that the Unseen could search for The Chosen among them, therefore the instincts of Adelbern not to trust him were quite correct, although for the wrong reasons.

Ascalon hadn’t fallen at the end of the GW1 timeline, 1080, and the last quest we get to play shows a defeat of a Charr army (yes, those groups represent an army in GW1) together with their Titan gods. The GW2 lore was one possibility of what could happen, not necessarily the only one. It was created to turn the Charr into a playable species, and clearly overdone, which shows favouritism towards the Charr in my opinion.

This quest also shows that Adelbern was not the madman people claim he already was during the times of GW1 (his lines in The Last Day dawns have been posted here often enough, i won’t do that again). That, also, is GW2 storywriting. And yes there were people in Ascalon who believed their king, that they could defend themselves, that there was no reason to leave with Rurik. And how many of those who left did reach safety in Kryta? Only to get into a civil war with White Mantle Inquisition destroying their settlement. Of course leaving gave you a chance to survive, no doubt about that. Chances were also high you got clubbed by an Ettin along the way.

Kalavier.1097:

I’ve not personally read Sea of Sorrow’s, though I would if I got the chance.

After the Rise of Zhaitan Cobiah Marriner got fished out of the ocean by the crew of a Charr scoutship which had survived the Tsunami due to its advanced technology (a steam engine) but had taken heavy damage and direly needed to reach the nearest port, which, ironically, was LA.

The Charr knew that they would be killed if they steamed straight into a human port, so they took Marriner on board to negotiate for them – they did not know that LA was no more. Their purpose had been to scout an invasion route over the sea to LA – to bring the war to Kryta. They became part of the pirates which took the ruins of LA as their base and never reported back, the way back being blocked anyway.

It was only long after that that the Charr sent a ship full of Ascalonian relics as a peace feeler, which Cobiah Marriner and his pirates intercepted, like drax explained – the Charr survivors among them.

You see that the Charr only considered an end to the conflict when they could no longer invade Kryta. But to me the whole attempt from the Charr sounds cynical, as they must have known by then that the route over the sea was blocked by both Zhaitan’s navy and the LA pirates. So i do not consider this a serious attempt at contact, more like a tasteless joke on the Charr’s part. And the state of war between Kryta and the Charr naturally went on. I am sure that neither Kryta nor Ebonhawke would have taken the attempt under consideration anyway.

Kalavier.1097:

And the comment directly from a Charr which states the Iron Legion was forging peace with Ebonhawke until a Krytan prince arrived and made the fields run with blood? Which likely took place before that since it’s stated that his actions there likely got his fathers approval?

I assume that doesn’t count at all right?

Either way, for the most part, the bulk of humans and charr were done with the ‘war’.

The Iron Legion was trying to forge peace with Ebonhawke, and humanity did not accept it, how injust of them.

“What did you expect, we are at war!” – that’s a Charr’s comment to Cobiah Marriner learning that the Charr were scouting an invasion route to LA over the sea. It shows that the “bulk of the Charr” was not done with the war. Neither was Kryta, and surely not Ebonhawke, which was the last place to accept any attempts at “peace” with the Charr, and you know that.

Seeing it as a spoiled attempt at peace by humanity is a purely subjective Charr point of view. It does not change that the Charr have been the aggressor against humanity for 1250 years. You are trying to put the blame for the war away from the Charr. That does not work.

The only honest and serious attempt at peace came from humanity, and the treatý hasn’t been signed after years of negotiations. Surely humanity is to be blamed for that too, right?

I assume that canonically there were three great heroes, one in each campaign. One for Prophecies and War in Kryta, one for Factions and Winds of Change, and one for Nightfall.

That they are not mentioned ingame got one simple reason, and that is that GW2 is not aimed at GW1 players, but at new ones who most likely did not play GW1.

A mentioning of the greatest heroes humanity ever had, the players of GW1, would aim at pleasing said GW1 players, and the storywriters have shown all too often how much they care about those.

Sure, they throw them a bone occasionally. But that does not change that the game favours all other species over humanity and usually disregards GW1 lore, and i’ve long assumed that that is intentional.

Kalavier.1097:

Also that around Zhaitan’s rising/before that, Iron Legion was trying to forge peace with Ebonhawke.

The war only existed around Ebonhawke, and even some of those that still hold the hate in the Treaty tent area (It’s not finalized, just the cease-fire is) state things like “I can’t forget what they did. But this peace is for the next and following generations. They won’t have this hate.”

Around the time of Zhaitan’s rise the Charr planned the invasion of Lion’s Arch over the sea, they sent a scoutship which did not return exactly because of Zhaitan’s rise. At that point an invasion over the sea was most likely going to fail due to Zhaitan’s navy, and LA was destroyed. The only other way for the Charr to invade Kryta would have been through Norn territory and the Norn would most likely not have let an invasion force pass.

So, till that time the war was not limited to Ebonhawke as far as the Charr were concerned, it was still aimed at all of humanity.

Furthermore, the one attempt (within over a thousand years) at a peaceful contact is almost cynical as the Charr must have known that a ship would most likely not make it, given that their scout did not return. Had they been serious about it they would have tried again, in some other way. It shows that they weren’t.

So the statement that the Charr were trying to forge peace is not correct. They lost interest in fighting Ebonhawke due to their inability to take it, and Kryta had gotten out of reach.

Well time to voice my opinion again…

About forgiveness: There is a fundamental difference between humanity and Charr.
Forgiving the Charr while they pride themselves in their atrocities is impossible in my opinion. As all of them pride themselves in their accomplishments of genocide and barbarism it is justified to see them all as the same. They themselves held all of humanity including civilians responsible for perceived insults from a thousand years ago. They themselves set the tone. They did not simply want to retake their “homeland” but exterminate humanity.

Why should the humans of Ascalon at the time of the Searing (or later) apologize for what their ancestors did a thousand years earlier to some bunch of monsters? Meaning driving them from land that was not theirs. Ascalon was not their homeland, it never was and had become human land after a thousand years. The Charr of today on the other hand willingly take responsibility for their ancestor’s actions.

That means the Charr of today are not innocent, they waged war against humanity till recently and even take pride in their ancestor’s actions. They have not earned forgiveness. I do not expect them to apologize. I do expect them to stop to gloat about genocide and all their barbaric acts. I do expect them to leave humanity in peace. I am sure they will fail at that in the long run because it is in their nature. Should the Elder Dragons all get defeated the Charr will fall back into their old habits and either wage war among the three Legions or look for an external foe. And who will that be?

About the Foefire: it was the last defiant act against the Charr who would have murdered every remaining human in Ascalon City including civilians. It spoiled their victory and simply put that is what they can’t stand. They react with demonizing Adelbern.
In no way was the Foefire an atrocity against the Charr who once more were the aggressor. The Foefire was excessive, yes, and i pity the ghosts, but no pity for the Charr from my part. You try to storm a city to murder everyone inside? There is the chance that you will die instead.

The ghosts deserve to find peace, but the Charr do not deserve to be freed from what they themselves caused. Their actions caused the Foefire. And if people want to blame humanity instead for having driven them out from land that was not theirs, well that wasn’t the start of it all. That was the Charr invading Grawl land. Which again leaves the Charr as the original cause of events. The Charr bear responsibility for the Searing, the Cataclysm, the invasion of Kryta, the Foefire and waging war against humanity till recently.

About the Charr sending a ship full of Ascalonian relics: one attempt at ending hostilities in 1250 years. The ship never made it due to some pirates capturing it, therefore of course the war between Charr and humanity went on (and that was only after the Charr had sent a ship to scout an invasion route to Lion’s Arch, which had failed to return due to Zhaitan’s rise. They could no longer invade Kryta over the sea.). Had the Charr been serious they could have tried again. Instead people blame humanity for going on with a war the Charr had kept going for over a thousand years, that’s something.

And please people do me a favour and leave comparisons to Germany out of this. I’m german and the idea of being compared to the Charr in any way is simply repulsive.

A discussion interesting enough to get me out of Forum retirement. Too bad it has deteriorated to the level where people start to take things personal.

About claims that GW is human-centered in contrast to GW2, there were no other playable species, therefore no alternatives around which the game could center. The Charr are simply evil monsters in Prophecies, and i wonder if some people really expect the game to center around anything else but the “good” guys, which in Prophecies is human heroes.
At least till Eye of the North which equally centers around humans, Asura, Norn and dwarves despite most of them not being playable.

And the Charr are clearly nothing but monsters in Guild Wars till the first appearance of Charr who could talk in NF, which was written by different people. But even in GWEN is the majority of Charr antagonistic and those who ally with you, Pyre’s warband, welcome the actions of the Charr against humanity, like the Searing.

In GW2 we got the so-called “subjective truths” and it seems to me like the writers try to turn the subjective view of the Charr into a general objective truth. The Charr of GW2 bear responsibility for their ancestors actions because they embrace them themselves. They waged war against humanity till recently, and worship some of the worst Flame-Legion monsters as heroes.

If a nation continues a war after a change of government, one they see as “just” even under the new government, then they take responsibility for the old governments actions. To claim otherwise (“the Flame Legion did it”) is hypocrisy. The Charr of today have to bear with the legal and moral heritage left by their ancestors, that of the worst atrocities in Tyrian history. That they do not care shows that they haven’t changed.

We also see no atrocities committed against the Charr by humanity. Some people use the Charr-hide armor as proof, but neither does that counter all the evil deeds of the Charr, nor was it anything noteworthy in Prophecies. Primeval armor uses the bones of demons, does anybody complain about that? How do players get Centaur hooves as trophies in GW2? They cut them off. Charr-hide armor does not “equal” the countless atrocities committed by the Charr. You get Charr hide as a drop if you want it or not.

The only hint of atrocities is in Ghosts of Ascalon when Ember is supposed to get flayed alive. By an Asura by the way. And GoA is GW2 material.

Finally, the last Titan worshipped by the Charr as a god falls in 1078, killed by human heroes just like all the other Titans on the face of Tyria:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Smell_of_Titan_in_the_Morning

As usual people are making fun of someone who has difficulties with content.

For me this is very hard to do too, i asked for a party but all i got was “get good”.

ANet, this IS a nightmare and no fun at all. Seriously, what were you thinking by adding this instance?

The three GW2 novels are Ghosts of Ascalon, Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows. All three deal with selected aspects of the overall picture of the GW universe.

Ghosts of Ascalon, the first to be published, is chronologically closest to the actual start of GW2, the year 1325. It tells how the peace negotiations between human Kryta and the Charr became possible, by a group of adventurers searching for an artifact of great importance to the Charr. The novel is highly interesting to read for those interested in the Prophecies campaign of GW1, in old GW1 lore.

Edge of Destiny, published second, plays a few years before GoA and has the most relevance to your personal story in GW2. It tells how the racial mentors you meet ingame came together to fight Elder Dragon champions and how they tried to kill an Elder Dragon, failed and split up. But ingame their ongoing story is mostly told in the dungeons. Still, the novel explains their story far better than what you get to know ingame.

Sea of Sorrows tells the events during the lifetime of one person, mostly the rising of the Elder Dragon Zhaitan, the world-changing destruction it caused and what came out of it – the destruction of the old city of Lion’s Arch and how it got “rebuilt”. It is the most distant in time to the ingame events.

If i had to recommend one out of the three for someone not acustomed to the game yet then i’d say Edge of Destiny as it has the most relevance for your own personal story and offers a slightly wider view of the ingame world than GoA.

The only way i could accept it to happen would be if it has already happened: Rytlock’s answer to the question how he got the sword: “Irrelevant.” comes to my mind here.
But i would not feel well with the idea. A tribune of a Legion secretly being a convert to human gods, that is…foremost a bad joke, secondly hard to imagine given how strict the Charr society is. Despite Rytlock’s tolerance of humans (which i do not see as much in him, by the way). A big risk to lose everything for what? It could be the price for being able to handle Sohothin though. But i still think it is unlikely.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I don’t recall the gods ever saying that the Charr were their enemies? They certainly favoured humans, but that doesn’t mean other races are their enemies.

The Charr see themselves as the enemies of the gods. If you are an olympian-style deity with almost human-like weaknesses and a “lesser” creature that declares itself to be your enemy steps in front of you, how do you react? Especially given Rytlocks temper.

I am not taking into account that the Charr have tried to exterminate humanity, since the gods pretty much abandoned their roles as protectors of humanity (not that they ever did much anyway), and that they basically served Abaddon.

Rytlock is deeply rooted in the beliefs of his race. “There are no gods for the Charr” is their mantra. Rytlock would have to leave everything behind, his place in the Charr society, his status, everything that defines him. Small chance that that is going to happen.

I think that the possibility of Glint getting reincarnated through her last egg is there. It looked as if the last egg was given to the Master by someone considerably taller than him, and i assume it is Glint’s child from GW1, “Glimmer”. So, why should a single egg have such an importance? Is Glimmer dead by now? Were there other hatchlings from Glint’s eggs? I think it does not matter much, as this last egg has special importance over all others.

I assume that we will be defending the egg against Mordremoth, and that baby Glint will be given a tasty piece of Elder Dragon to feed upon afterwards, so that she can grow quickly and eventually replace one of the Elder Dragons. Do we have a piece of an Elder Dragon around somewhere by chance? Some nice tail for example.

I think it is because they do not want to give the appearance of a Glint-like Crystal Dragon away too soon.

I believe that the fire in the picture points to Rytlock having gotten Sohothin back somehow.

The blindfold reminds me of human Ritualists, and of Razah, who may be around in the Mists somewhere. It would be great if he made an appearance.

I also think that Rytlock should not survive an encounter with one of the human gods, as a Charr. He is their declared enemy.

It will be intersting to see in how far (and if at all) our characters will be a part of it. Will we go to the Mists? Or will we simply see Rytlock return, changed in some way?

This Episode has done a lot to mend my strained “relationship” with the game and its lore. Well done ANet.

I second Selbbub. It is only logical if its name starts with an S.

Alright, long post incoming…

Your view of Adenauer is interesting, but i guess this is not the place for a discussion about that topic, at least not in-depth. Adenauer was called the “Chancellor of the Allies”, who saw a european unification as the way for the future. He pretty much set the course for german politics till today. I don’t see him as having used revanchist rhetorics, but it is known that under his government minor officials of the kitten regime were allowed to work again, which i cannot understand given how much Adenauer had always been an opponent of the Hitler regime. That’s the “reality” of politics i guess.

As much as i dislike politicians and the current german government, i also do not see them doing backdoor imperialism. But i started to wonder if it may be the case.
Merkel may think that her way of handling things in the EU is the “right” way though, a way i do not agree with. I do not want Germany to take a leading role in Europe, to prevent exactly that impression of german “backdoor imperialism”. I think that Germany should keep more in the backgrounds at times though, although as the currently strongest economy in Europe there may be no other choice.

On a sidenote, The EU is far less popular among germans than it may look from the outside. But our constitution does not allow to let the people decide directly. If asked i would vote for Germany to leave the EU, just out of spite for the government. And yes, i have been called an anarchist.

Now, back on topic. I think if Smodur tried to establish humanity as something like an “honorary legion” a civil war among the Charr (other than the current one against the Flame Legion) may become likely. Something like that is far in the future and most likely inacceptable to the majority of the Charr. And given the nature of dictatorships a successor to Smodur may very well go for a completely different course. So, i do not see a high chance for anything like “Smodur’s vision” happening in the forseeable future. I do think that the friendship between Logan and Rytlock will play an important role and can be seen as a model for development of Human-Charr relations, with all its ups and downs.

Moving back on character, my main character lost her parents to the Charr and is very unwilling to grant the Charr the chance to prove that they are capable of change. Distrust and old hatred runs too deep. Still, she grudgingly accepts reality and gives her support by holding back. She still kills Renegades and Flame Legion Charr with pleasure. And she fully expects the Charr to fall back into old habits eventually, but wishes it won’t come to that. If it does, she will fight.

My own personal point of view differs from this, and i can mostly agree with you. War is such a stupid thing, especially a war of aggression. Humanity seems to be on the way to outgrow its more violent tendencies (in GW2), the Charr would have to change their own society to follow down that path, which i do not see happening. Still, as you said, there may be signs.
For the sake of humanity i am willing to grant the Charr the chance to show that they can change (although a part of me does not like the idea. Been a GW1 player for too long i guess).
We may actually have to be thankful to the Elder Dragons to make it possible.

When it comes to the actual theme of the game then i do not see a new war happening between humanity and the Charr, given it is cooperation, friendship and overcoming old enmities. Should a crisis happen we will be given the chance to prevent the worst.

Nice post Mr. draxynnic. I generally agree. Interesting to read your comments about german history, being german. A good friend of mine is polish and when we met she was of the opinion that Germany wants to retake the territories lost after the second world war and that germans are all eager for a revanche. That thought astonished me. It could not be further from the truth.

My ingame human characters don’t agree with you. Not that they want to start a war against the Charr, but it is too early to forgive them. Too early to forget their atrocities, too early to forget that they laid siege to Ebonhawke till not so long ago. That they only recently freed human slaves. They have yet to prove that they are willing to have peace, and you know that it is likely that they will turn into the aggressor again, as they have been for 1250 years.

Even ingame Charr agression against humanity only ended a short time ago. The Charr are not to be measured by human standards, and that makes them that dangerous. It also means that human morality does not apply to them and that therefore it is up to them to show that they should be treated by human moral standards by humanity. Which means that my ingame human characters have no problem with killing Charr, or waging war against them should they attack again.

The burden of proving that they are capable of behaving in a civilized manner lies with the Charr. And i am sure that they will fail at that.

Chris.3290:

3. Luvpie isn’t recruiting for the 3rd server as much as asking those that want more GvG focus to consider whoever settles in at the 3rd spot. SoS and FA already have some great GvG guilds and simply joining one of us will mean missing out on fighting many of the remaining guilds.

Who is Luvpie to ask GvG guilds to consider to transfer to whomever comes up to T2 from T3? It will most likely be YB to go up, so he is asking GvG guilds, who do not fit into the YB community, to come to us. No, thank you. Again, leave recruiting to us.

YB will most likely not change its playstyle for the sake of servers that have announced to spawn camp us.

FA and SoS WILL focus YB despite everything that has been claimed here, to push us out of T2 again. That’s actually fine. But don’t pretend you won’t do that.

Necro.6432:

I have no idea who are you to talk for CD and you’re talking as you know how we are and what our plays are like , you can talk from your server prespective which i don’t really care for because there are totally different from each other..where our wvw guilds are oriented on being openfield/gvg guilds and yet have balance between that and PPT but it gets boring when you face server that actually don’t fight.

P.S pvf forums pls respond to my gvg request, i saw someone’s post say TC/PAL/TUNE gvg ?..been over 6 weeks and didnt get 1 gvg out of YB lol

Your post is somewhat hard to understand, it could use some structure and better grammar.

From your post i take it that i know nothing about your server’s playstyle while you seem to know ours.

So it seems like you want to say that one can’t get an impression about how a server fights when facing them repeatedly during the last few months? Then on what do all those “experts” from FA and SoS base their opinion about my own server on?

Anyway, i get it now that CD was not trying to avoid going up to T2 but never was able to do so.

And OP, do not try to save your broken tier at the expense of other servers. Of course any server going up will get rolled over since it will be the easiest target.

Straegen.2938:

Came from Mag (during the great GvG age) and went to YB (for stability).

YB is missing solid open field GvG groups but oddly I think that makes it a better place for casual and community driven players. YB is super friendly, almost nobody gets in a bunch over losing objectives and everyone seems to pitch in. YB is unified unlike any server I have been on.

This is in direct contrast to Mag and the GvG scene. The T2 fights were impressive and an absolute blast but Mag always felt like the Wild Wild West. Everybody was essentially doing their own thing for better and worse.

IMO introducing GvG into YB would likely begin splitting such a tight knit openly friendly community. Likewise YB’s unity cannot exist in such a highly individualistic GvG environment. Two different styles of play, both valid and fun in their own right. I just don’t think the two can coexist.

Huh, Straegen, you are on Yaks now?
Your assessment is sharp as usual.

Luvpie, you will not be able to revive your GvG scene with any of the possible candidates for T2, YB, DB, CD. Neither of them plays for GvG mostly, and you will not be able to change their playstyles for the sake of a scene that was mostly represented by Maguuma.

Mags had, and probably still has, a bad reputation in lower tiers for their attitude – i remember all too well how they behaved when they dropped down to T3 for a week last time. Justified reputation or not, you will not manage to get any server to become another Maguuma, neither in coverage nor in playstyle. The GvG scene in T2 seems to be dead, YB will not allow to get used in an attempt to revive a playstyle you prefer, at our cost.

I honestly doubt that YB would be welcomed in T2, and most of us do not want to be there. Not because we “fear” T2, we will fight nonetheless when there, but because of the atmosphere and playstyle of the T2 servers SoS and FA. We feel comfortable in T3-4, and during all seasons so far our population grew and fell back to normal afterwards, and that means we cannot compete in T2.

FA and SoS players have repeatedly stated that they would spawn camp us and that we are “not welcome “ in T2. That’s fine, we do not want to be there. FA and SoS will band together to roll over us instead of fighting each other, and it will be very one-sided. THAT is the current style of T2. There is no T3 server that can or will adapt to current T2, maybe it is time for T2 to adapt to the reality of WvW instead.

And please leave recruiting to us.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not sure if there’s an event for Whispers, never beat it but it’d be tied to someone wanting revenge for Landon no doubt.

You got Ministry Guards that spawn occasionally (for me, in Harathis Hinterlands) and try to kill you, saying that Caudecus sends them to thank you for stealing his daughter.

Basch.1347:

Truly, the only ones that would moan and complain would be YB, mostly due to the agreed upon focus by FA/SoS if YB does rise to T2.

Once more you attack people on an entire server because of your personal dislike. A server you aren’t on, so you know nothing about the community there.

Stop your personal attacks.

Chaba.5410:

The exact quote is that Yak’s Bend would be spawn camped. Players in T2 really aren’t thrilled by YB’s lack of fights.

It seems players in T2 really know a lot about how YB fights.

People aren’t thrilled because YB does not fight the way they want to in T2. But of course PvD is so much better. Or spawn camping others.

But that is not the topic of this thread.

I do not think that this is going to happen any time soon, ANet won’t manually interfere in server rankings and it looks as if Maguuma will stay in Gold League for the next 4 weeks. I am sorry to say so, but please don’t expect people to care.

Thing is, there is no T3 server that can give SoS and FA a fair fight in their tier. And no server from the T3/4 group currently really wants to go up there. People from T2 servers said they look forward to spawn camp any server coming up. Last time Maguuma dropped down to T3 they spawn camped their opponents by the way.

Should Maguuma drop in rank then i think you can expect the same from your opponents, like it happened to HoD when they fell. They hadn’t shown any fairness to their opponents during season 2 themselves , and SoR had to suffer for 9 weeks in Silver. So it will most likely be a rough time for Maguuma for the next weeks/months.

WvW is not about fairness, and T2 is the hell its players created on their own. A place no one from the lower tier servers wants to be.

Maguuma most likely won’t get out of Gold for season 3 just like SoR did not get out of Silver during season 2. And expect to get the same treatment as HoD on your way down if you aren’t strong enough to prevent that, because of the reputation Maguuma has built up for itself.

I am not showing any Schadenfreude here, i am just telling how things most likely will be.

People often forget that this is a game and not some military organization where one has to obey commands from some stranger who happens to be longer in the guild than oneself.

I run my own tiny guild as a place just for myself and friends i have made, i do not recruit and i let people do what they enjoy in the guild. And that has worked fine for me and a few friends for years, since our GW1 time. Some members view the guild as something like family.

A friend who was in a pretty big guild asked me to join them, he told me that 100% repping wasn’t asked for and of course i got kicked after a day for only repping them about half of that time, which i fully expected. I got kicked without anyone asking me about my motivation. I had just registered at their website and i asked the “officer” who had kicked me to delete my account at their website.

What i got was an extremely rude reply by that person who told me that i was just “mad” that i had gotten kicked and that there was nothing i could do for them not deleting my personal information (including my mail address) at their website. I just shrugged and moved on.

Such people forget that people do not need guilds but guilds need people. And, again, that a guild (with the exception of WvW where such organization is necessary) is not a military organization where people can think about ordering others around. People who willingly join such a guild are still there on their own free will.

A guild that expects 100% repping is not worth anyone’s time. The ones that expect that are not the ones worth playing with.

psionflames.5246:

The key I think is balance. Balance out these traumatic “area ravaged by x” type changes with positive changes and it wont be such a big deal. Wouldn’t you agree that if a location changed for the better both old player and new player alike could appreciate its current state?

I think that our personal definition of what would be a better change may differ a bit or how much change is healthy, but in general i can agree.

I do not think that LA and Kessex have changed for the better (neither do i assume that you do think so). And i think it is time they started to change again. I am sure that the majority of players would want to see LA rebuilt, and some new trees growing in Kessex. A bit less rubble in both areas – i am sure that new players would appreciate LA more if there was a bit more than just piles of rubble. The tone of the game stays too dark this way. The theme is hope, not despair.

After all Regina asked for new ideas how to handle this, i hope she gains some from this thread.

psionflames.5246:

Okay but this is true of EVERY MMO. I can’t think of a single MMO you could pick up new today and still get the same experience you could at launch. Games have to advance and change and develop. So they can be just as fun for the person playing through for the tenth time as the person playing through for their first.

Like you said that sometimes means a new player is going to feel they missed out on something, but in the end the content that they missed isn’t really relevant to them anyway. Like with your friend and lions arch, to them its just how it is and they go from there while someone who was around before/doing has the additional impact of the comparison between what it was and what it is now.

There is no perfect solution to this, obviously, but I feel like making everything static outside of instances would be a step in the wrong direction

A new player of Guild Wars (1) can still experience the Prophecies campaign the way it has always been – there are no War in Kryta changes to areas if that player hasn’t started it. There have been changes to the game’s mechanisms but the game experience is still the same as when GW1 first launched, or am i wrong here?

Concerning my friend, she felt at a loss in LA, amidst all the rubble, and i think she hasn’t visited the place since then. I do not think that is how it should be. I think there should be a city for her to visit.

I wanted to add that having new areas as a setting for new changes is imo a good idea. Let Mordremoth devastate Dry Top all he wants to. Outside of it, keep it to instances.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Just a question here because I am curious. The idea of the Living World is that there is a storyline that you take part in, that you are involved in events that shape Tyria in permanent ways—how would you all convey the sense of progression and change without also making changes to the landscape? I see a couple of comments regarding creating things, not simply destroying. Do you all have any other ideas?

Change for the sake of change may not always be good. The changes to the world make things inconsistent overall. I understand that that is a necessity to keep the game replayable. But we have LA destroyed, for example, but Orr stays the way it is, although Zhaitan is “officially” dead. To me that is inconsistent.

A friend of mine started to play after LA had been destroyed and she can’t connect to the event in any way. For her there is just a destroyed LA, i am sure she would feel more to be a part of the world if LA did actually change back. I understand that that is a matter of resources, but simply destroying something and letting it stay like that doesn’t make the world feel more alive, but, as i said, inconsistent and still static. A true Living World does evolve permanently, but that is impossible. New players need to be able to experience Orr at the time of Zhaitan for example. So there is a limit to the concept of the Living World and finding a compromise is not easy i guess.

What i actually saw as a good change is the “corpse” of the Marionette. I do not need to see a complete area destroyed to feel the world change – as a new player i would like to be able to experience the world as it was at the start of the game.

Having Living World events instanced is a good way. It is enough for me to see the Pale Tree start to fade away in my personal instance instead of the open world. I still know it happened. I do not need to see Fort Salma destroyed in the open world. If you do that, make the Pale Tree fade away in the open world too.

Consistency is the key, either leave things intact and change happening in instances or change the whole world – which i think is not advisable due to several things like game resources, playability for new players etc.

As a new player i would like to start at the beginning, not be thrown into a world that shows me that i already missed a lot. Okay, the season 2 is playable by new players if they chose so, but LA and Kessex are still destroyed. I think it is time to not let them stay like that, but to let those areas evolve. New destruction should be reserved for instances, at least on a grand scale.

I do not feel the imminent threat of Mordremoth in the open world, but that is alright. I do not need to. I only need to feel the threat once i enter my personal instance of season 2.

Building up something “new” is a good way – rebuilding LA for example. Otherwise, a smaller scale is enough, like the Marionette corpse. Or the tentacles at waypoints.

TL;DR: Do not let a part of the world stay in 1325 and others move onward to 1327 – keep that to instances. Some small reminders of events are perfectly fine though.

adormtil.1605:

So King Jalis Ironhammer won and forced his subjects to go trough a ritual so the dwarfes are of stone so they can fight Primordius ad his armies? Which they do not seem to do very well. But where were the nords then?

The Deldrimor dwarves won the civil war with the Stone Summit, with the help of human heroes. The last of the Stone Summit just gave up years later and rejoined Deldrimor. They were destined to become stone dwarves anyway.

King Jalis did not force his people to become stone at all, they all willingly underwent the transformation to fulfill their ancient prophecy about the Great Dwarf fighting the Great Destroyer. At least one dwarf, Ogden, chose not to undergo the ritual immediately, but eventually even he turned to stone.

And supposedly the dwarves are still fighting the minions of Primordus today, although we can’t tell if there are any left. The destroyers are infinite while the dwarves’ number would just dwindle away along the time. The only known dwarf to still exist is Ogden Stonehammer, living at the Durmand Priory.

The Norn were never organized in such a way that they would send an army to fight. They agreed to join in the fight against the Great Destroyer, and 5 of them came. For them that is quite a number. But each Norn could decide for him- or herself to join into the fight.

The fight against the Great Destroyer was teamwork between the Ebon Vanguard (humans), the dwarves, the Asura and the Norn (and of course a group of heroes). No Charr were there, although Pyre and his warband are actually in the instance you enter after the final fight. Eye of the North is about bringing those different groups together.

The knowledge about the fight against the Great Destroyer is still around today, as Tybalt has a dialogue about the Order of Whispers knowing about a group of heroes fighting Primordus and winning, as he puts it. The result was that Primordus went back to sleep for another few decades instead of waking up right then.

You need the expansion Eye of the North and at least one of the campaigns, like Prophecies. Then get to at least level 10 and reach the port city of your campaign, like LA in Prophecies, Kaineng Center or Kamadan. You can take the transfer quest to Eye of the North from any of these. Do the quest, get to the Hall.

Get tapestries so you can dedicate items to your HoM, by playing the Eye of the North main quests. They are meant for level 20s so better get a character fully equipped.

Play with your friend and look for an active Guild that can help you with filling your HoM. Do not forget to set up a decent team of heroes which you get along the time.

Getting a few points won’t be hard, but the more you want the more time you have to invest. And read through this article here:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hall_of_monuments_guide

Good luck and have fun!

Mental Paradox.3845:

And kaineng city the most depressing.

Ah, the lovely sight of raw sewage waterfalls…brings back memories…

Concerning the topic, why bother waiting for LA or Kessex to get restored, they most likely won’t. We have to live with the great permanent changes in a Living World!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I got over it when I facepalmed hard several times during Prophecies. “Put an arrow in Markis’ back now . . . now . . . NOW . . . aw darnit, you know he’s going to betray you later.”

I felt like that about that friendly elderly guy with that accent, the one from Orr. I wanted to throw him overboard during that voyage to the Crystal Desert, but the undead ship crew may have reacted strangely.

Jokes aside, a friend of mine no longer feels comfortable in the game because it is getting too dark for his taste. I would be happy about having more dialogue choices as a character though, very often “my dialogue” is nothing i would have said at all. I miss the old Personality system, they should at least bring that back.

Rox and Braham should just go and get a room. Especially if i no longer have to bear with Rox’ superstition or Braham’s mommy issues then. And the two ladies can get a room too, and school started for Taimi.

That being said, none of the extremist groups can be trusted, not even as temporary allies. My enemies’ enemy is my friend, that most likely won’t work with any of them i fear. They aren’t “noble enemies”, and one would have to constantly watch one’s back when they are around. One would spend more time trying to prevent fights of your own people with them than fighting Dragon minions. So i’d rather avoid having to deal with any of the extremist groups. Their demands would be too high, if they would even listen.

But approaching them may not be necessary. Should the forces of one Dragon enter territory controlled by minions of another we will most likely see them fight against each other. So far we didn’t see that happen, but it may very well happen in the future.

You wanna go over as an envoy to the Nightmare Court and ask for their help? Didn’t think so.

I think it’s more likely to see the Nightmare Court become minions of Mordremoth by the way. If they aren’t already.

Should the Tengu come forth from their isolation we will have to shoot them all because one can never tell for sure who is a refugee fleeing for their lives and who is just “hellbent on pillaging” or worse, corrupted by a dragon. Especially if they come through that LA gate. I see no other alternative, unfortunately, just like the Tengu did during Scarlet’s invasion. They will surely understand that.

No one is “fearing” T2, people from that tier who assume so are giving too much credit towards themselves.

No one in T3/4 wants to leave a balanced group of servers with good matches for one which is none of that.

T2 players seemingly like to ignore the fact that the considerable difference in power between T2 (SoS mostly) and T3 will never create a balanced match with a T3 server in T2, and T2 players have repeatedly admitted to looking forward to spawn-camp T3 servers. Which eventually will lead to dull matches for all of T2 and another shift in power (which, imo, is inevitable).

Unless T2 player enjoy PvD and spawn-camping instead of competitive matches (which i suspect may be the case) T2 will dry out eventually. So i would think about if T2 servers can keep their current populations in the future, especially SoS, with imbalanced matches.

Leave the worries about T3 populations to the T3 servers. No one wants to be in Gold for the upcoming season 3 as Silver looks to be much more fun. Let T3 servers worry about the time after season 3, but actually there aren’t many people worrying.

And the former YB people who transferred could be so nice as to stop trying to discredit YB just because of their personal opinion. It won’t make YB change its style just because some people do not like it.

Alga.6498:

Any suggests which one is the fastest / easiest to do?
Hard Mode every area in Vanquish or running around in every area in Cartographer?

Combine it. Set up a Meta hero team and vanquishing will not be hard (with a few exceptions like the Hidden City of Ahdashim where you have to be careful). Start with Factions as it is the fastest to vanquish. Cartographing is easier after having killed everything in an area, and if you are already working on that, why not do it in hard mode to combine it with Vanquisher?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Vanquisher

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Cartographer

Get Textmod as ANet tolerates its usage and it makes things a lot easier – you will see that after you have been everywhere and scraped along all borders that you will still miss a few percent, that is when the real work starts and Textmod shows you spots you missed so far. Read the GW Wiki articles as they include plenty of useful hints.

Those are definitely faster than trying Legendary Master of the North. That one is a pain.

I am under the impression that the Zephyrites were on their way to the location we saw in the vision, and that that location holds the key to defeating Mordremoth, or at least to stop his expansion. Mordremoth tried to stop the Zephyrites from reaching it, but the Master of Peace still travels on, and we will meet him there once we get to that place.

One of the pillars of light we saw rise into the sky seems to have come from the mysterious object underground which was surrounded by crystals, and those got shattered, and afterwards Mordremoths’ vines overgrew it.

The images we saw are most likely a metaphorical language – just like not everything from the vision of Orr came true precisely like we saw it. The golden item may represent Glint’s child (a fully grown dragon after 250 years by the way), but i assume that there is more than one of those objects deep in the earth since we saw multiple pillars rise. Still, the crystals hint at a connection to Glint somehow.

I assume we will have to find that mysterious place and protect it from Mordremoth’s attacks – him “blowing everything up”. Maybe those pillars of light are leyline pillars like the one caused by the Breachmaker, and the place will be a giant buffet for Mordremoth if we can’t prevent it. The Master of Peace is most likely the key to how to prevent that.

KotCR.6024:

Well, we know from GW1 that Charr are allowed into other realms of the mists; For example their is Charr (and Grawl, and others) in the Realm of Torment in GW1

I would not say that anyone in the Realm of Torment (except for maybe the Forgotten) was “allowed in” – it was a place a soul was being sent to as punishment. We only see the ghosts of two Charr there, they are more the exception than the rule. I was surprised we did not see more GW1 Charr end up in the Realm of Torment, a lot of them qualified. It was never said where the souls of Charr go after their deaths (maybe they got no soul? …just kidding).

KotCR.6024:

so it’s within reason they’d be allowed into other realms in the mists too, befitting of their character, and the Hall of Heroes would certainly make sense should they have a suitable character for it.

Every area of the Mists from GW1 was restricted or had some condition to enter, and those who decided to grant entry were the gods. Unless they are gone from even the Mists i do not think they would allow non-believers into the Hall of Heroes.

And better not start a discussion about Rytlock’s character. Let’s just say our opinions most likely differ.

Your ISP : Telekom Deutschland GmbH
Your location: Germany
Your territory or region: NA
Your Game World: Yak’s Bend
Error Code : 7:11:3:191:101
The number of characters with the problem : 2
Map: Cursed Shore

I only log in for dailies any more and do those on my two main characters – in Cursed Shore. If i can’t play on them any more then i guess i won’t even login for dailies.

Kalavier.1097:

Um, I don’t think any of the GW1 heroes are famous enough to be “Known across worlds.”

Where does that come from? Because it doesn’t make sense at ALL.

I did not get my own copy of the Manuscripts to look into it but looked it up at the GW Wiki. The part about some souls having to rot in their corpses forever is obviously nonsense.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hall_of_Heroes

I interpret the part of “being known across worlds” as the gods, who dwell in another world, having taken notice of the deeds of an individuum. An act that would be known across worlds is the slaying of Abaddon for example – remember all the Forgotten and spirits that cheer for you in the Throne of Secrets area? I do believe that plenty of NPC’s from Guild Wars got entry into the hall.

I also think that it is likely that the Hall of Heroes and the Norn Hall of Spirits are one and the same, and that that is the case because the Norn see the human gods as spirits of the wild. And that is what makes me doubt that a Charr would be allowed in, because he does not acknowledge the human gods as having authority over him.

And yes, i do assume that “fantasy racism” exists here, although i would not call it such. Why should the gods, assuming it is them who grant entry, allow someone who sees himself as their enemy in? Even someone who helped kill an Elder Dragon. Remember that Rytlock was hanging around Ebonhawke before meeting Logan and was killing humans.

So, for comic relief, my own version of what will happen:

A battered Rytlock Brimstone knocks at the gate of the Hall of Heroes. After what seems to be an eternity a vision slit in the massive wooden gate opens and Rytlock can see some human eyes staring at him.

“We don’t buy anything” a dry female voice tells him.

“What?!”

The vision slit closes. Rytlock bangs against the gate.

The vision slit opens again: “What is it?” says the dry female voice.

“I want my sword back!”

“Password?”

“What password?!!” yells Rytlock.

“Since you do not seem to know the password, let me help you. It’s one of these.” A sheet of paper gets stuck out of the vision slit. Rytlock grasps it, unfolds it and reads:

A: I am attacking the darkness!
B: Logan is a pansy
C: Dwaynaaaaa!

“What is this?!!” Rytlock yells as he crumples the paper.

“That is not the correct answer.”

The vision slit closes. Rytlock furiously bangs against the gate. The vision slit opens yet again.

“My my, aren’t you persistant.”

“Are you making fun of me?!” Rytlock roars.

“You have to take the side entry. Go around the hall to the left.” The vision slit closes one final time.

Furiously Rytlock starts the long walk around the hall.

As he arrives at the side he reads a sign saying “Side entry this way. You are now entering area 1 The Underworld.”

Rytlock stares at a menagerie of Torment creatures, Dryders and Wurms staring back at him.

I appreciate your post, and i agree with it except for one part, and i think you can guess which one that is.

draxynnic.3719:

There’s no reason Rytlock couldn’t get to the Hall of Heroes – it’s not unique to humans. Norn at least can go there as well.

“Jora mentions that the Norn believe that the bravest heroes go to a place called the "Hall of Spirits””, i assume that you refer to this. First, the “Hall of Spirits” may not be the Hall of Heroes (unless there is proof that it is?).

Second, i assume that the Hall of Heroes no longer hosts “battles among the living” and is therefore reserved for those that are both heroes “whose deeds in life were legendary enough to be known across multiple worlds”, and dead. And that is where Rytlock does not qualify (i actually do not think he qualifies as a legendary hero whose fame is known across several worlds either. He would need a severe change in attitude for that.).

I also assume that the powers who grant entry to the Hall are the human gods or their servants (the Envoys come to my mind) – and frankly i doubt that they let a Charr in, unless the mechanisms that grant entry are no longer in place, whatever those were.

Rytlock may knock at the gate of the Hall should he manage to find it – but it will not be his decision to grant him entry, of that i am sure. And that he would be asked what makes him qualify.

Serophous.9085:

Don’t forget that the charr occupied ascalon before the humans. I mean, that was the whole reason they started the in gw1, to take back their land once they had their own ‘gods’

That the Charr “only” wanted Ascalon back is GW2 lore, i think one needs to differentiate between the games here or see it as the Charr’s subjective point of view as of “today”/GW2 time.

In GW1 they wanted to eradicate the “infestation” that was humanity for them. The driving force for this may have been the shamans or the Titans, but the Charr went on to Orr and Kryta after the Searing, they did not stop in Ascalon.

And originally the Charr came from east of the Blazeridge mountains and Ascalon was not their homeland. If one argues that Ascalon became their homeland during the time they lived there then it became human land during the thousand years that humanity lived there as well.

Or one can take the Charr’s approach and say that the forceful expulsion of the Charr from Ascalon by humanity justifies the Charr’s actions a thousand years later, which i find to be unacceptable.

On topic, i am glad that Rytlock failed. He should end up in the Realm of Torment, if any of it still exists, but that’s just my opinion. I assume he failed because he was neither at the “right” place, which is most likely the heart of the Foefire, nor was he the “right” person to succeed. I do not find it to be logical that a Charr can lift the curse, but we do not even know where the “Prophecy” how to lift the curse came to be.

I would not be surprised if Rytlock would try to find Prince Rurik, to whom Sohothin may have gone. Entering the Hall of Heroes should be impossible for Rytlock though.

Maybe the whole situation is connected to how Rytlock got Sohothin, it feels liek there is something more to it (if it isn’t simply a bad conscience that makes him refuse to tell how he got it). No matter how he got it, Sohothin is a human heirloom and does not belong to a Charr. Even more so if he simply plundered it from somewhere.

Obsidian.1328:

Exactly. Players need to make intelligent judgements on which things in-game should be taken literally, and which should be taken as limitations on the game engine. The game company can’t be expected, with existing technology, to present a world that is 100% accurate and viable.

Indeed, players can think about finding explanations for plotholes and things the game designers did not think about when creating the game. Such possible explanations themselves do not serve as an explanation for theories that go against logic ingame though. Neither does accepting the existence of plotholes and missing explanations “invalidate” someone’s argumentation. “Brushing something off” and accepting that there is no logical explanation are way, way different things. The only thing that discredits someone imo is personal attacks.

DraconicDak.9340:

This is logical. It does not write off a plothole that is inescapable otherwise, but incorporates it in believable fashion. And in fact, if you look at the GW1 entry for Gwen:

In 1080 AE, King Adelbern recalls Gwen Thackeray and the Ebon Vanguard to fortify Ebonhawke, a town alongside the Blazeridge Mountains, in order to solidify supply lines to Ascalon City.

Which supports my theory.

As the literal purpose of fortifying Ebonhawke was to solidify the supply lines you are claiming can’t exist (which, neatly, also defies your claim that the developers didn’t think about the supply problem), and as Gwen did, in fact, survive, I contend that there were supplies flowing into Ascalon City from the south, in safety, up until the final siege and the Foefire.

The Founding: “At a mountain clearing, we discovered an old, abandoned mining town. Its masters were long gone, but their possessions would aid us in our struggle against the charr.”

The Founding is ingame information, meaning Ebonhawke was abandoned before the arrival of Gwen and her people. The Charr laid siege to it immediately, how big is the chance for supply caravans to reach Ascalon City from there? Even assuming that such arrived from the south, through the Crystal Desert.

There were no supplies flowing into Ascalon City from the south.

Taking the logical approach then supply lines from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City most likely did not exist. Meaning the supply of the population of Ascalon City and the remaining human outposts is really hard to explain. It does not make the existence of arable land any more plausible, or a human presence outside of Ascalon City, and therefore does not lessen the Charr’s guilt in any way. They still killed every human outside of outposts they could find.

DraconicDak.9340:

If you’re content to build your interpretation on an acknowledged impossibility, instead of using logic to determine a method by which the situation becomes possible, there’s really not much I can say.

For my part, I would say that careful, small groups of humans, between patrols and under cover of night, could evade Charr notice to bring supplies into the besieged city. And if they are caught, again, that is why they would be escorted by Vanguard.

I am building my interpretation on an impossibility, that’s almost funny. The amount of ghosts outside of Ascalon City can be perfectly explained by the Foefire raising all dead. The Foefire had the effect of killing every living being inside of Ascalon City and not further, it raised all human dead in Ascalon.

That the humans in Ascalon survived without a food source is the “impossibility” as presented in GW1, which simply arises because the game designers did not think about an explanation. It does not make your theory of arable land or human presence outside of enclaves the logical explanation.

Some humans did survive till 1090. First, the renewal of the Charr offensive in 1072 started to eliminate all human presence outside of enclaves like the cities and outposts till 1090. How many had survived till then is not clear, but i assume that many had starved to death. It means that the number of ghosts we see is most likely larger than the number of humans still alive in 1090.

Second, the only possibility for food to get into Ascalon during that time were merchant caravans, which also does not explain the number of ghosts we see outside of Ascalon City in GW2.

Small numbers of humans slipping out, as you say, does not explain a considerable number of humans still being alive in 1090. Not enough for the number of ghosts we see. During 1090 Ascalon City most likely had to rely on what was stockpiled, and that can’t have been much.

Now, concerning where merchant caravans could have gotten any supplies from, the only possibilities are Yak’s Bend, or an unknown port at the far southwest, otside of Ascalon. But even the otherwise abandoned south of Ascalon, as shown during Gwen’s travel to found Ebonhawke, is under Charr control in 1080 already. Merchant caravans as a food supply most likely became impossible at some point between 1072 and 1090, the more outposts were lost.

DraconicDak.9340:

In that capacity, if the account of the Foefire is meant, by the developers, to be questioned, I would think that the Priory, or some book in Ebonhawke, would hold an account that challenges the Charr viewpoint. As there is no such item in the game, to my knowledge, I have to believe that the agreeing accounts are, by and large, correct.

A historian or scientist looks at the evidence presented and draws conclusions, he does not back up his personal preference with selective pieces of evidence. Same can be applied to a lore discussion.

By and large the accounts of the Charr may be correct, that doesn’t mean every detail is. It does not back up your theory of a sizable human presence outside of Ascalon City in 1090.
Accepting what the Charr were and, to the most degree, still are today, seems to be hard for some people. They did not let any human in Ascalon alive.

If we assume that the truth is more likely to be what the majority of evidence points to, and look at the number of ghosts that had obviously already been dead by 1090, or ghosts that could not have been around outside of Ascalon City, like the large amount of peasants, then it means that the most likely explanation is that the Foefire rose those.

DraconicDak.9340:

I would consider the actual census to be the primary source, and a sorrow-filled line from Simon to be secondary. He was emotional, and not necessarily in a state to deliver precise numbers, nor was that the point. “Not half as long as it was” adequately communicates his sadness at the people killed by the Flame Legion.

http://www.princeton.edu/~refdesk/primary2.html

This is for your information. The game itself is a primary source, in this case, Simon. There is no indication that Simon wasn’t speaking the truth. That is not even an assumption but an opinion.

DraconicDak.9340:

Nearly two decades of 100% barren lands? Where does Ascalon City’s food come from? The mere logistical issue of acquiring food stock, not to mention raw material for clothes, begs for supplies, which begs for supply caravans, guarded, of course, by the Vanguard.

Meaning that, even if we accept that Ascalon was completely devoid of workable land for two decades, a small but extant portion of humans must have been trailing supplies in from outside sources. Which means by extension, the likely presence of a small but extant portion of humans outside the city at the time of the Foefire.

We need not “accept” that Ascalon was a wasteland, because all you need to do is enter GW and have a look yourself. Do not question the primary source. But feel free to not accept it. I have accepted the impossibility to feed the survivors as an obvious ingame-mistake from the first moment i stepped into Post-Searing. It does not mean there is an area of land in Ascalon untouched by the Searing and serving as a food source. The only possible source are merchant caravans, but from where?

And once more, the Charr army had completely surrounded Ascalon City by 1090, there was no way for humans to get out, and why should they? Trying to escape maybe, but where to? The last safe place was Ascalon City.

DraconicDak.9340:

You’re welcome to assume that all three accounts – GoA, the game itself, and the wiki – are irredeemably tainted by racial bias, but that is all that is, an assumption. And if that is the case, I really have to ask, why bother discussing lore at all? If the sources aren’t credible, you can’t say anything for sure.

The Wiki is not a primary source for lore itself. The accounts in GoA and the AC cinematics are told by Charr and therefore subjective.

DraconicDak.9340:

I want to note here as well, the Movement claims there were surviving humans in the ruins, while other sources say that all human life within the city and around was eradicated.

And the Movement is an in-universe document that “is continually being challenged and researched and revised by the scholars there [at the Priory].” So even within the game, its veracity is fluid.

You say so yourself, the Movement is an in-universe document that falls under the same rule as anything else in GW2. Allow me to quote someone far more knowledgeable about lore overall than me.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Like HoboSiege said, the game’s typically best for lore – though do keep in mind that Guild Wars 2 heavily plays on the concept of “subjective truths” – so what NPCs in GW2 say tends to just be their view on the matter, rather than the truth.

The concept of “subjective truths” is nothing Konig or me came up with, but the game devs. Feel free to not accept it. But then there is really no need to discuss lore at all.

DraconicDak.9340:

Please don’t misquote me.

I did not misquote you, i merely used your quote out of its context for a controversial and probably rhetorical reply. There’s a difference there. Back on topic…

Information given by the Charr is heavily biased towards the Charr’s point of view. Plenty information given in GW2 is subjective, as the devs themselves say.

But there is no reason to doubt Simon’s words about the death toll of the Searing. He is a Scribe, not a teller of anecdotes. The Ascalon Census list is merely supportive. But to not leave it out, those two sources name the death toll of the Searing to be at 50+% and 33%. The Ascalon Census is a secondary source though.

You are assuming that the ghosts we see outside of Ascalon City are all direct victims of the Foefire, but there are plenty of ghosts that show that that is not the case. All evidence points towards many of them, and in my opinion all outside of Ascalon City, to have been dead at the time of the Foefire.

The Charr had surrounded Ascalon City in 1090, there is no way to assume that they would have left any human alive. You may not like to see the Charr for what they were, and mostly still are today. It is your right to do so. It doesn’t change what the nature of the Charr is and what they have to bear responsibility for. I am biased against the Charr, yet i think i try to look at evidence in a subjective way.

There is no reason for peasants to be outside of the city walls as there is no arable land at that time. Neither is there any vegetation left for sheeps or any other aninmal. Everything that is still alive in Ascalon after the Searing preys on other wildlife.

Since the Searing humanity was reduced to enclaves like Rin, Nolani and Ascalon City. In 1090 only Ascalon City was left. There was no human presence outside of Ascalon City left. All ghosts we see outside of Ascalon City rose from where they had been slain by the Charr, all evidence points to it.

The Foefire is not logical, if given a choice i would have burned every Charr in Ascalon and not only those inside of Ascalon City, and spared humans, but that didn’t happen. What the evidence suggests is that the Foefire burned every living creature within Ascalon City to ash, be it Charr or human, and then made all dead humans in Ascalon rise as ghosts. Therefore the Charr account is flawed. How much of the Foefire’s effects had been exactly wished for by Adelbern is impossible to tell.

The account as presented in the AC cinematics is not only told by a Charr, it is told by Rytlock Brimstone, a guy full of prejudice and almost as much hatred as Adelbern. I partially blame Logan leaving DE for Rytlock’s attitude in the AC, but the rest is upbringing/cultural and the nature of the Charr. Rytlock was raised that way and was told all kind of funny things, like the Charr having killed their gods. Same goes for Ember’s account in GoA.

The Charr account is most likely closer to the truth than the human account, but it is still not an objective account, but one told by one of the parties involved. To me it feels like the need to justify some deeds of the past – that can’t be justified imo.

Ebonhawke was not on Adelbern’s mind at all. Even if it was, it was outside of the curses’ reach.

DraconicDak.9340:

Please source your population numbers from GW1, relating to the Searing. Because from what I played, it seems like the Searing was mostly environmental damage, and didn’t do a very good job of killing Ascalonian Humans.

Simon the Scribe, Quest “Counting the Fallen”: “You found the census! Oh, I’m most…grateful to you. I almost said I was delighted, but one look at this list…so many lost. If we took a census today, the list wouldn’t be half this long.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Counting_the_Fallen

Also: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ascalon_census

DraconicDak.9340:

Just because Ascalon was under Charr control doesn’t mean that it was completely devoid of humans. Indeed, the presence of Foefire ghosts indicates plenty of scout patrols and hiding civilians were outside the physical city walls.

Sure, just step outside of Ascalon City in GW1 and you can see lotsa hiding civilians there, right? Sheperds and peasants, whose ghosts we see in GW2. Plenty of peasant ghosts especially.

What you actually find in Ascalon Post-Searing is a few human collectors. Closer to Ascalon City you find a few soldiers outside (during quests). There are a few merchant caravans trying to travel between human-held outposts (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Caravan_in_Trouble). And that’s all.

DraconicDak.9340:

As for sparing Ebonhawke:

If Adelbern turned his people into ghosts on purpose, to fight the Charr forever, why would he leave out his strongest forces at Ebonhawke?

If Adelbern didn’t really intend to curse Ascalon’s humans, then he wasn’t aware of the capacity to spare anything.

There is the possibility that Adelbern wanted civilians to survive at a far away place. It is more likely that he just sent “unwanted” people away, which means he didn’t spare Ebonhawke a thought when unleashing the Foefire.

DraconicDak.9340:

If you had to choose between slavery and death, what would you choose?

I would chose to be left alone and live my life in peace. Now who is responsible for that choice being impossible? Let me give you a hint, it’s not Adelbern.

Speaking of slavery: Duke Gaban, “The Flight North”: “Finally awake, girl? Trust me, the nightmare of this world is far worse than any you could dream up in your fitful sleep. Today, the Charr plan to feed us to a siege devourer simply for their amusement.”

If i had to chose between instant death and getting killed by the Charr in a way chosen by them my choice would be clear, even if that means being forced to be bound to the land as a ghost.

DraconicDak.9340:

So you’re saying Adelbern was being a good, honorable king in murdering the entirety of his nation (excepting a single fortress, naturally).

Adelbern responsible for the death of the human nation of Ascalon, wow, that’s something.

The Searing killed half the population of Ascalon, of the survivors a part went with Rurik, and at the time of the Foefire there were only two places outside of Charr control, Ascalon City and Ebonhawke. If someone was left alive at that time they got dragged away to the North to die for the Charr’s amusement later.

The Charr murdered the entirety of the human nation of Ascalon except those that left for Kryta and Ebonhawke and the few defenders left alive at the time of the Foefire inside Ascalon City. Those that died directly in the Foefire would also have been killed by the Charr.

Your statement is the actual opposite of what happened.

Adelbern did not let the Charr have the “victory” they wanted, that’s war. Poor Charr couldn’t murder the remaining humans inside Ascalon City and got incinerated instead, i can understand that that’s galling for the Charr till today.

BrunoBRS.5178:

a single fortress that only survived because it was lucky to be far enough away, otherwise not even ebonhawke would’ve survived, meaning all of ascalon would be dead.

Another myth that one can see getting repeated here at this Forum is that Ebonhawke only survived till today because they got “lucky”. It was too far away for the effect of the Foefire to reach it, but where is proof that Adelbern did or didn’t intentionally spare it? And Ebonhawke survived 250 years of Charr siege not because of the Charr’s generosity – they tried to take it and failed. No wonder since there were no Titans around.