Guild Wars 2

Paulytnz.7619:

The problem is we know it’s “just a game”

have you ever played “Bastion”? “Dear Esther”? I could name “A Machine for Pigs” but that is way above as PEGI rating.

No, the problem is definitely not “it’s just a game”, because a game – after all – is just one of the many ways to tell a story, so I would search the problem elsewhere.
I’ve said this in some other thread and will take this chance to further spread the word: GW2 pixels lacks heart. Things slightly improves if we take into account the personal story, but in the open world (in which you will spend 95% of your time) there are no traces of feelings or emotions of any kind.

For the sake of brevity let’s just take into account the Living Story, and let’s just focus on its last part:
- why separate the evacuation from the invasion? Put hard ethic choices on the players: fighting the Assault Knights or saving the citizens? Who is more righteous, those who fight the invaders or those who try to avoid them helping people?
- add fear: instead of random enemies spawning and standing still, make them group and roam to hunt down civilians and players as well.
- hurt the world: Lion’s Arch has been destroyed, but no one cares in whole Tyria. Everywhere you go, everything is still going on as usual.
- not only the players, but not even characters are not emotionally involved in the process (something like “I studied here, I graduated here, I bought my first weapon here” ecc ecc). There is no “sense of loss”.
- the world is not interactive: NPC across the world do not react differently depending on your actions.
- there is no randomness: everything goes the same way everyday since the beginning and until the end of time.

I know it’s probably very complex to implement some of these things, but this would be a giant leap toward a LIVING world.
Don’t misunderstand me: I like gw2, just underlining how seeing it improve further would make me happier.

we are at a point in which the best Elite we can think of would be to equip an utility instead….

our most iconic mechanic as d/d roamers is pressing 2 just a second before being stomped by a random enemy and think “ahah I trolled him”. Then respawn.

who in the world will ever equip a GRANDmaster trait which won’t give him/her aaaany benefit at all? o.O
we have been asking for improved self sustain….and we get turned into buffslaves? sounds legit.

Correct version would’ve been: “aquatic benevolence: +35% healing to caster, +25% to allies”. This is something I might consider to equip, not their version :\

this is what really happens:

Nikkinella.8254:

So has anyone else noticed it? You can now be feared, immobilized, and stunned while in mist form. As if they hadn’t nerfed mist form enough already. Nice job Anet.

chillout guys, it’s obviously a misunderstanding, Arena Net just never noticed the tooltip for Mist Form was wrong:

next patch:

Tooltip has been corrected for Mistform Skill, now it is: "Morph into a non invulnerable, vaporous mist for a brief time. "

It would be VERY useful to right-click any waypoint on the map and have an option like “put on sidebar”, up to five or more slots, so to be able to insta-click and go wherever you need, creating for example pre-established routes for any kind of purpose (warding, farming… whatever)

Even better if the WP locked on sidebar could be drag’n’dropped to change their order if needed.

You are going to severely nerf AoE? well then just remove the double dagger weapons setup for Elementalist, as it will be totally useless after the nerf.

useless now, removed from hotbar

they can add a downed skill to complement our current excellent set: raise “Please Kill Me” flag (50 sec CD)

Hylgeriak.8250:

Please no generalizations here. Do you think we choose by ourselves to happen this?

Of course not, and I am sure native Gandara’s citizens are -righteously- upset about A.Net smashing their door and injecting foreigners into a well established system without not only asking permission to do so but not even consulting the population.
Yeah sure your server will “win” the season tournament, but you have been deprived of the chance to win by superior strategy and skills, and in the long run this may negatively affect the server much more than the benefits that will come with the final placement.
This kind of behaviours is what damage the whole WvW community the most:
- hardcore players feel betrayed (“they already decided and handled the winning ticket, what kind of lottery is this?”)
- the server that has been hit by the curse develops community uneasiness
- random players get a distorted picture of WvW dynamics
- everyone in general get nervous
- since everything is already decided, fun is removed
- most ppl is already wishing for the season to just pass quickly and forget it
- all other servers will be left in fear to be the “next gandara”

A.Net reasoning on this is beyond my logic, they still stay silent (which is probably what creates even more problems) and yet they had months to run a CDI about how we players would’ve liked this matter to be handled.

Maybe it’s not worth much, but I can assure that many ppl on GH understand how gandara’s players feels now.

Looking forward a brighter future, in which strategy and skills determine the outcome instead of numbers and dice throwing.

cheers from GH

Sharpe.1485:

All you guys in this thread saying ele is fine…
Take a look at the last two “big” tournaments Guild Wars 2 was in, PAX and MLG. You know how many eles were in there competing at top level? I bet you don’t because if you did you’d realize how stupid you all sound.

Answer is zero.

unfortunately most players are in denial and refuse to admit the evidence.
What’s worst, seems like devs want us to stay where we are.

actually I couldn’t believe my eyes seeing a patch without Elementalist being nerfed.
Then I read the new mini-patch notes, and everything is back as usual

Zelanard.5806:

But how do we keep tuned in with the CDI’s?

checking forum often is a good start, when they are about to happen they usually gather a lot of posts and are quite visible

how do we know when they happen and how often?

I’d like to help on this but I am not the right person to do so; if Chris is reading and have time to do so, he will answer for sure.

Aegis.9724:

The thing is, dedicated players are the reason MMOs live and prosper.

not quite frankly, as the ones that spends RL money are the ones who works and earn RL money, this also means they cannot be grinzergs. GW2 has an average mature audience, and this means that they are casual players mostly (although the amount of playtime per week may vary).

GW2 is the most accessible mmo su such players, with 2nd tier endgame gear handed out like cookies, and ascended only offering small power increases. Everyone (well, whoever stays long enough) in a MMO need long term goals , and having skins be that is the fairest you can ask.

I think developers’s choice was right when they decided to make all the gear easily accessible, that move automatically selected their primary userbase pool. As per the long term goals: it’s okay to have many, but it’s even better to realize how fun is the journey without caring about a specific goal. It will come anyway, eventually…

Personally, i’m currently playing a couple hours every evening ( used to play about twice that last year ), and my bank is overflowing with ascended items, hundreds of gold i have no use for, 2 full exo lv 80.

full green trinkets, full yellow armor, two cheap exotic weapons. I am enjoying my time anyway…

Also, YOU ‘RE NO ONE TO CRITICIZE WHY AND HOW MUCH TIME PEOPLE SPEND PLAYING. IT’S NOT YOU OWN DAM BUSINESS . GET REAL, because discussing time/reward ratio is one thing, downright insulting people who have more free time than you is another.

no one is insulting people with free time, the misuse of it ’tho has been proven unhealthy long before my point of view and yours.

the biggest problem is the camera. When the character has some surface close behind, the camera will show you…the neck/shoulder of your character!!!. Why not simply make so that when the camera gets too near, it switch to some kind of isometric view to ALWAYS allow a perfect view of the whole scenario?

Kodiak.3281:

Or are you just trying to strawman one aspect of game play that was intended to be solo’d in an attempt to justify playing solo in another aspect of game play that wasn’t designed to be played solo?

so if 1vs1 is not supposed to happen, what if you want to reach your precious cuddling zerg when first logging in the game and you have to lonely travel from WP to zerg and you find a bad bad unattended really unforeseeable event like….meeting an enemy on the war field?
Will you pm him “hey, this is not supposed to happen!”, “this is not what the game was designed for!!!”.
Maybe it works.

Yuujin.1067:

Elementalist have the best mobility in the game.

ahaha shtap it my sides hurts .
/takes a breath/ phew you almost killed me with this; try dueling a competent thief, warrior, mesmer and ranger and you will learn what mobility is.
We have a decent mobility, decent damage, decent survivability, decent healing abilities, decent conditions removal but we excel at nothing and looks like a.net is happy with things staying like this.

Removing Restrictions: all weapons for all classes

Zumy.6318:

Yet when alting on warrior it ffels like plaing SAB baby cloud mode.

this is exactly what Devs seems to not fully understand and what I’ve been telling since august 2012: Elementalist is not rewarding. You just do twice (or more) the effort to achieve the same exact results of any other classes.
I am pretty satisfied with my personal results against all classes, but this doesn’t prevent me to clearly see the flaws that afflicts Elementalist; when running on my war or my thief, the feeling is like of playing a different game.
What puzzles me the most is trying to figure out what’s so hard to understand about this simple fact from Devs, and so far the only answer I found is that no one of them plays extensively the class to fully understand how ridiculous the cost/benefits ratio has become.

No one in his/her mind is saying that Elementalist is unable to access al the content of the game or defeat other classes in 1vs1 but the amount of efforts to be put for reaching such goals is incredibly higher than with any other class, making it one of the less efficient class in the game.

So the question to developers is: why Elementalist is so inefficient?

imho the main problem is: it’s untrue that there is nothing to do, but is true that there are no valid reasons to continue doing what the game offers, because there is no sense of progression whatsoever.

Vertical Progression: very very bad, should be a no-no at any given moment. I can understand that Ascended gear was somehow necessary because heavy grinders were fully exotic minutes after release, but -especially for casual players- Ascended is a major problem. I feel severely punished for playing only WvW, because the chances to get money and Ascended items there are abysmal.
Also, I don’t like the idea of having level cap incremented (really, who cares about that number in the corner of the screen…), and even less I want to grind to see numbers increasing on the stats of my gear. The absence of vertical progression was one of the selling point for me when I choosed GW2 and would really appreciate things staying like they were supposed to be from the beginning.

horizontal progression: greatly welcome in all its aspects. New skills, new weapons, new mechanics, new whatever.
The change I would welcome the most and that would make me “wooooow”: adding Presige Classes, highly specialized in something (like the ones you have in the dice/paper D&D). That would be ultimate horizontal progression and a joy to play.

too soon for me to say a final word, but I am practicing with it and – currently – having fun.

“they gave us nothing in two years” is a bit stretched, lemme recap for those who were distract during these years:

- new traits: on for each traitline for every class
- new recipes
- new skills (healing skills, and ok most of them are bad/useless, but still are new)
- new skins
- one balance patch (I know that much has yet to be done but it’s a first step)
- new maps (one in pvp, one in wvw and one in pve)
- new boss mechanics (tequatl, mega wurm ecc)
- megaserver (I like it, finally maps aren’t ghost towns anymore)
- seasonal events
- living story (I am unsure if there are other games updated this frequently)

I am sure I am missing something but hey you get the picture.
Granted, our priorities may differ from devs ones, as for example I would’ve focused all the firepower into fixing bugs and balancing classes as absolute top priority, but to blindly state that “they did nothing” is unfair and overstretched.

Karl McLain.5604:

Profession Changes

Elementalist:
Our changes for the elementalist focus on increasing sustain while maintaining the delicate balance between damage and durability. We achieved this by adding more defensive effects to a few main-hand weapon sets.

• Signet of Restoration: Removed the split on this skill so that the signet passive heal amount will be increased in PvP to match the current PvE amount.
• Armor of Earth: Reduced recharge from 90 seconds to 75 seconds.
• Water Trident: Added 3 seconds of regeneration to up to 5 allies in the radius.
• Burning Speed: This ability now evades attacks.
• Frozen Burst: This ability is now a blast finisher.

note: I will be referring exclusively at WvW area.

I consider positive that A.Net noticed how poor Elementalist sustain abilities are right now, but the above mentioned countermeasures are far too mild to impact the gameplay in a significant way.
Considering the huge nerf that will affect critical damage, our primary defense (which is offense aka “killing before being killed”) will be crippled, therefore making us weaker rather than stronger.
As if this was not enough, scepter and focus still verses in a rather disappointing state (weak damage multipliers, super slow and well telegraphed nukes, insignificant healing ecc…).
Also: dagger/dagger has been mainstream since day 1, so why focus on tweaking what’s already widely used?

Solutions, choose one or more of the following:

• truly boost up our damage to make up for the lack of mobility
• give us mobility to make up for the lack of sustain
• give us great sustain to make up for the lack of damage

JonPeters.5630:

Ok time for a third topic.

Guild Halls.

I see this subject come up a lot in this thread and while we can talk about other aspects of Guild Halls at some point, let’s try another exercise.

What are the 3 top QOL features

- unique and customizable sense of progression
- fully interactive craftable architecture and furnitures (yeah, you should be given the possibility to actually build the Guild Hall itself, maybe as very long term Guild Mission, crafting statues of most representative members ecc)
- an extremely detailed management system (taxes, expenses, items rental, alliance war funds and so on) I’d probably play this more than I should from my office #^^#

have fun climbing

Adastra.9821:

You must be new here; here’s a guide by your hero Excala. Class subforums are all about talking about how underpowered the respective class is (except maybe the Guardian subforum).

Your claims would be valid a few months ago. They’re not so much anymore. The cantrip build you mention. That’s ONE build that might have been able to hold out in the current condi meta pre-nerf.

Swapping attunements does indeed bring your survivability up on par with the other classes… if you spec for it. Most people including eles seem to forget they don’t get any healing if they don’t spec for it. The devs agree with you about attunements. That’s 45 points (15 water, 30 arcane) required to survive aside from bursting down your opponent before they can kill you. You also need 1k healing power if you want to heal 2.5k, but unfortunately, you won’t be doing any damage.

The requirement of arcane and/or water outside of full burst builds is a design flaw that hurts the ele’s build diversity and has been brought up constantly since the game was released. You can pretend these problems don’t exist or outright ignore them, but they won’t just go away. I currently just ignore them as my elementalist continues to be my main character since early access, but most people have already rerolled another character.

You should do your research on the state of the elementalist before making outdated claims. While it’s not as bad as a few people make it out to be, we’re not exactly in a great spot either having dropped from taking a top place in a tpvp team composition to having no place.

best post of the year. To all those who will not acknowledge the poor state of Elementalist, I will just link your post.

I can already hear the horde outraging when they will release patchnotes….

@Vash: aye I know that, and also I am 100% ok with conditions being awesome for Elementalist. I am just pointing out that giving weight to a specific traitline will defeat the core mechanic of attunements dance.
To further clarify: I see your idea as good, but its potential has to be split into all four attunements to preserve our core mechanic. I am all up for making Elementalist muuuuuuch more complex to play, if that would be faaaaaaaaaaaaar more rewarding than it is now – zero – because if a player want to just press “win” to end a fight he/she can already choose to play thief or warrior.

nice post. They are not the worst enemy of the game, but the worst enemy of developers (poor devs… here’s a well earned cookie), who are forced to advance at a very faster pace than any logical forecast would’ve predicted. Lifeless nerds are beyond logic, and they are a cluster of immense zergs which literally devour every bit on the game with a neverending hunger that cannot be satisfied no matter how they struggle.
Although I feel bad for poor devs, I kinda recognize as cosmic balance the presence of such grinzergs ’cause the game I play will continue to improve, expand and be – ultimately – fun for me.

Jack of Tears.9458:

We’re not remotely the only class what has Stealth, so I’m not going there.

but thief is the only class who can consistently keep stealthing until he/she gets bored

Nor are we the slipperiest class in the game, though we’re supposed to be.

actually, thief is. Join a battle from stealth, spike your victim to death, stealth and flee unpunished. Out of initiative? roll for initiative, rinse and repeat.
I am still undecided, between warrior and thief, which one is the most roflstomping class: they are both so easy it’s painful, I remember how much I struggled to level at first when I rolled my very first character in gw2 (Elementalist).
Everything else is a piece of cake to level and to succeed with, really.

the idea of prestige classes has appeared already in a previous CDI and although deemed “not priority” was given some chance of appearing as potential matter of discussion for a future dedicated CDI.
So, let’s just cross fingers and hope…

Toughness/Vitality/Healing Power
Power/Vitality/Healing Power

edit: forgot to state the obvious —> it would be muuuuch better to just be able to mix ‘n’ match all the stats to your heart content with a mechanic similar to the one for legendaries

yeah Ele are ok… :|
maybe in another game, not GW2.

what amazes me is that everyone QQ about zergs in W3 and yet devs haven’t realized that actually insanely BOOSTING AoE would be the only solution against ’em.
Having AoE be lethal for enemies and -say- 50% damage for allies too, would force everyone to spread and actually be more careful instead of mindlessly zerging.

Zorada.9457:

Thing is people blame social skills on so many things and it just does not cut it.

but unfortunately it accurately describes empirical facts :\ most ppl lack social skills, which is very sad if you consider we are talking about MMORPG…

The fact is people do not want to go there anymore and its a simple as that. No amount of social skills make people do something they do not wish to do.

I think you may benefit from re-reading all the qqing: it’s not about “I don’t want to go to Orr”, but “I am unable to solo Orr ‘cause it’s too hard for me” and they think the best solution would be for devs to tune down the environment difficulty.
Wrong: it must be boosted to insanity and beyond to heavily encourage cooperation amongst players.
It’s not that bad to have buddies, c’mon!

I have shouted and shouted for help sorting these things out but i am talking to myself in reality.

I’m sorry your Orr’s experience has been frustrating so far, which server are you? on Gunnar’s Hold all the events are pretty well populated and in the noon it’s easy to find all waypoints availables.

Most figure they have done it once on a char and thats enough.

that’s sad..

either you do something to attract people to an area or its dead and gone no matter how pretty it is.

that mostly depends on how players relate to the concept of “fun”. For what I’ve observed so far, a great amount of players are “passive”, and expect the game to tickle ‘em endlessly in order to have fun; they completely lack the ability to creatively adapt to whatever scenario and have fun their own way. It somehow reminds me of how kids can have fun in certain geographical areas of the world with just a ball, and somewhere else they need a clown, expensive dresses, fireworks, high end technology and such.
They expect to go Orr and finding Legendary weapons hanging from trees, bags with thousands of gold growing in the garden, exotic gear stockpiled on every corner of the streets ecc; if everyone had everything, that would equale to everyone having nothing at all. I already consider insane having let Legendaries go into TP, but this is another story, but it’s beyond my comprehension why everyone is so obsessed with milking all these resources from Orr (or any other area) in a game that allows you to get full exotic geared with just a bunch of golds.
In my opinion, people just reflect in the game dynamics of the real world and have lost completely the ability to play a game for what it really is: a game.

hi Jon, thanks for posting this preview with long advance.

Elementalist
I am overall satisfied with all changes, mostly because they will open paths for new builds and won’t force us anymore into water or arcana unless we specifically want to do so. This is good

Pro

• partial (n1) freedom from water and arcana
• in the big picture, Elementalist should now be able to abandon defensive playing only
• the new “passive protection” mechanic (Burning Fire, Diamond Skin, Tempest Defense ecc) is very interesting and may really create a completely new Elementalist meta.
• the overall increment in damage output may finally be noticeable

Cons

• Renewing Stamina was our main source of survivability after our mobility was taken out completely. Moving it to Master Tier will mean that a large portion of players will still “feel” forced to go deep in Arcana

the thread is about Trait Lines, I didn’t mention all the critical topics that make the Elementalist forum so lively (mobility and RTL, mist form, lightning flash, FGS casting time ecc) both because it would be off topic and because I see a positive trend so maybe in the future you will seriously address also these concerns of ours.

Kodiak.3281:

Grevender.9235:

if you cower behind the zerg, and god forbid someone pulls you out of there….maybe.
Try to get out, roam, do 1vs1 and 1vs2 and you will instantly notice what’s missing.

What do 1vX contribute to the over all WvW effort? Nothing.

we are not here to establish what contribute does it gives, we are here to discuss if that scenario is balanced for Elementalist or not.
The answer is: no, is not balanced.

on a side note:
- stomping gives points to your server (using skills from the safety of a zerg doesn’t)
- only with direct confrontation (1vs1 and 1vs2) you can ascertain class balance: yelling “p0wn3d u n00b!!!” to unlucky folks that crossed your AoE while escaping from your zerg is not going to improve your individual skills and create a very misleading concept of “balance”.

Hey Devon, tnx for participating to this thread.
a) The Commander System is in critical need of being overhauled, I’d say the very first thing is to give commanders the ability to set the badge color. Next, comes the need to have different types of badges (since you called it Commander Badge, I’d go for: liutenant, colonel, major ecc) each able to be visible on a smaller portion of the map according to its respective rank (a colonel may have half the range of a commander, a sergeant may be visible in 1200 range). This will GREATLY help coordination

b) we WvW folks kinda feel like the underdog because despite what we accomplish, no one care or even notice (but all the PvE guys enjoy the gathering/drop/whatever boosts that they get because we win). It would be cool if, at reset, server widespread messages warned everyone about the Mist Warriors winning and a ghostly parade started in Lion’s Arch.

c) many PvE folks don’t WvW, many WvW folks don’t PvE. The two tribes, instead of feeling part of the same game, look down at each other.
I suppose you agree with me that this is wrong, and a different approach should be encouraged.
Well, then why don’t you guys help us? make PvE have effects in WvW, and make WvW have effects on PvE.
Example: PvE folks win Temple of Grenth? cool, a Pact legendary champion shows up in the Mists to help WvW folks do something.
WvW folks cap towers/keeps/Stonemist? a powerful buff will prevent the guys at Grenth to be thrown in the air/a small army of Veteran Mist Warriors will show up to help/a Legendary Mist Warrior\Beast will help overthrowing the Temple.
People cap Melandru? higher regen/hp/condition resistence for WvW
People cap Lyssa? Random Boon for all the WvW every 30 secs
I could continue for days, but I suppose you already got the picture.

These would be steps toward the ultimate end game content…

Brendar.3548:

You missed his sarcasm.

wrong, I dodged it…

well, 300g is a lot but you should consider it’s ACCOUNT bound, it means you can have all your -say- 15 characters tag up whenever you want, while with the current system you would’ve spent 1500 gold to obtain the same exact result.

This said, I would’ve preferred the ability to select the color on the fly, instead of being bound to what I buy forever (something with a color picker, or a certain range of colors).

Most important thing
I am completely against the concept of standardizing Commander’s tags (spend gold, it is available in all game formats). This is bad.
When we faced the discussion in the CDI about this topic, many of us openly stated that it was necessary to have a distinction between the game modes in order for the tag to be meaningful and to avoid beginners to negatively impact the gaming experience of other players.
Speaking from the WvW side, instead of gold (which no WvW loyal player is gonna stack up anyway), what about making it a mix of badges + wvw ranks (especially now that they are account bound, they are a good measure of the time you spend in wvw and – hopefully – they show that you somehow know what to do) + maybe karma and or skill points.

naphack.9346:

Well, people still got the Nuker mage archetype from other games in mind, while ele does not even get close to such a facemelt value.

nonetheless it should be like that, specially when wielding a staff…

Sind Bowdragon.8374:

as of now mist form is useless.

mist form became useless the very moment it was deprived of the ability to run utility skills

if you think the polls would somehow interfere with the suspension of disbelief (I won’t even discuss how many other things already presents in the game do so, it would be off topic tho) just make them a part of the game and encourage -without “forcing”- the partecipation.
I will use WvW as example ‘cause that’s my main (I’d say only) interest: add a daily “report to Commander Siegerazer”. It will only contribute to the daily the first time you do it every 24h, but it will keep track of all submissions for the activity (I may play one hour in the morning, then play 2 hours in the afternoon, and every time have something to say which can contribute to the overall ingame view of the game experience through the eyes of that particular character).
Of course, it’s very important to be able to gather data from each player that plays with different characters: what may look easy for those who mains a certain class, might prove an hard task for someone with the same class as alt, ‘tho in order to find a compromise that can set peace for both the sides (let’s call it “balance”), both opinions need to be heard.
Is there any chance that the poll threads that you planned for WvW/PvE/PvP board macro-areas will appear also in each class section? I believe that listening specifically to the opinion of players class by class is even more accurate than the “area” in which they play, because in order to play you must first choose a class.

xsquared.1926:

In WvW it’s kind of a double edged blade. Elementalists are mediocore in small scale roaming, but they excel in backlining at large zergs, throwing down meteor showers, water fields and static fields everywhere. Buffing eles too much may make them too strong in these situations.

it’s not that hard to contain a specific weaponset efficiency (staff). The current state of Elementalist for what concerns small scale fights and solo roaming is TERRIBAD

Evan Lesh.3295:

• PvP vs PvE vs WvW (each mode requires different configuration options)

How would you like to see any/all of these work?

a simple “save” button with a field to insert the name of the template, and the ability to check options such as “save look”, “save gear”, “save sigils”, “save runes”, “save weapons” ecc.

Then a “load” button, from which we can select any of the saved templates.

Bonus features for improved quality of life:

- the game will “remember” the last template used in each area, if you log in WvW you will therefore find you using the last template you selected when you where there, and if you suddenly go to PvE you will be using the last template you were using there too ecc

- quickload (or favorite) icons, which will be populated automatically with the templates you use the most, with the option to manually add them.

now that I officially know that all my wxp points are completely wasted, won’t play alts anymore in www. Too bad , it was fun…

commander system overhaul is critical and mandatory asap.
Also +1 to differentiate PvE commanders from WvW ones

had fun, although I am not good at solving puzzles of any kind and couldn’t complete many parts. Not enough time to do everything, RL calls T.T
Globally, will remember it for loooong time