Guild Wars 2

Ehecatl.9172:

Erebos.6741:

Ehecatl.9172:

So long as that burst exists we need the downed state.

Now whether or not we should remove the extreme burst as an option is an entirely different debate.

It’s absolutely relevant as you clearly noted a relationship between burst and down state.

It seems you’re saying we “need” down state because burst exceeds normal human reaction time, so I’m asking you: do you think that’s a rational approach to game design which also aims to distinguish players based on their knowledge and adroitness (skill)?

This thread is not about burst damage, it’s about whether or not the game needs the downed state. Unless the developers completely redesign every profession in the game or alter the core mechanics that govern damage and survivability, we do in fact need downed state. Simply removing it will not solve anything.

You are absolutely right. You cannot remove the downed state and leave the extremes as they are. But this game will never succeed in the competitive scene in its current state, and something has got to give.

Ehecatl.9172:

Down state very much encourages skilled team play.

There are many times that I’ve been downed and, due to my teammates overlooking my broken, bleeding body in favor of tunnel visioning some bunker, that I’ve been killed before I was able to contribute to the group. In the same breath if that bunker does go down I will almost assuredly die in the next few seconds because I was neglected, giving the bunker a second wind. My teammates were bad and because of that they missed out on my damage and boons and the bunker was able to get back up and keep fighting.

On the other hand there have been many times where I get downed during a team fight and, rather than focusing the enemy, my teammates turn to me and rez me. I get back up, unload my damage rotation, and completely turn the tide of the fight because my teammates were aware enough to make sure I was on my feet.

But on the third hand there have been times where both myself and an enemy are downed, and my teammates try to rez me rather than stomping the enemy, which resulted in the enemy getting rezzed before me and proceeding to knock back my saviors and stomping me. Or an enemy stomps me before my allies can rez me resulting in the downed enemy getting back up.

It’s a much more complicated system than people give it credit for, and observing the situation and making the right call can make or break a team fight.

Once more, without down state a thief jumping me from nowhere would just kill me. There’s no counter play to that. The downed state counterbalances extreme burst so there’s at least a CHANCE to get back up, rather than being immediately shut down by someone you didn’t even know was there until you were on the ground.

Everything you just described, with a special emphasis on the negative, is because of a ridiculous game mechanic, and all of those examples were reactions to that game mechanic. Not the objective of the game, but one lone mechanic. But is it just the downed state that is the problem? No. Because the downed state allows for the other issue.

I agree, and have said it before, the burst/bunker extremes need to be toned down. It is not a problem of any one particular class, but rather the spectrum of power as a whole, needs re-tuning.

<DMG——————————————Balanced———————————————-DEF>

When it should be more like

<DMG———————————Balanced———————————-DEF>

I understand why the downstate exists, to allow for BIG NUMBERS ATTACK without completely removing the player from the battlefield in the blink of an eye. But what about bunkers? What’s the reasoning behind making them as hard to kill as they are?

The truth of the matter is that the downed state was a fun experiment, but it needs to go. It’s not just a faulty game mechanic, it is a faulty game mechanic that is the only counterplay to extreme burst. Remove one, re-tune the other, then the healing can begin.

Free wardrobe changes.

silencer.5028:

Charak.9761:

People who purely PvP want nothing to-do with the PvE aspect of the game.
People who do mostly PvE will only hope into maybe 3-4 games for daily.

And the current system does not force either to do PvE or PvP. It just combines the cosmetic aspect and now regular currency and loot is used as rewards for both. In that aspect, PvP players are showered with stones as track/rep rewards and can also"farm" repeatable reward tracks for the monies to get cosmetics. Just like PvE players, but in their own neck of the woods.

What don’t you understand? PvE players got a basket chock full of goodies this patch, while PvP (as usual) got unnecessary obligations thrown into our laps. Our lockers were fine, having lvl1 alts was the best way to play all the classes and learn them in PvP, and now we have to PvE to unlock the newest GM traits? It is a big “kitten you” to the sPvP community.

Though I do like the account wide dyes.

silencer.5028:

Sirendor.1394:

Justin ODell.9517:

Thorn.7963:

Could you at least tell us WHY you did this change? It seems so pointless.

To bring PvP in line with how the rest of the game works.

PvP was about the only thing that seemed ‘similar’ to GW1, because everything was automatically unlocked. The point for it was, as I remember, to make it competitive, with everyone having the same means.

It saddens me to see this power creep in form of traits/skills/leveling. Why are you doing this?

Um, gw1 PvP did not come with everything unlocked, at least at its inception. You unlocked stuff via PvP currency or PvE.

Also, sPvP does not use any PvE stats. The only connection between sPvP and pve are gear and weapon skins. A lvl 1 weapon is the same as a legendary, sans skin. In fact, sPvP nolonger uses the Hero panel at all for its stats and builds. Just like in GW1 for Adventure chars, though using those in PvP wasn’t the best idea iirc.

How about the fact that the GM traits are unlocked by spending 20 skill points? That’s for each new GM trait, for each trait line, on each character. PvE affects PvP in too many ways as it is, and this patch only made it worse.

Nope, Anet thought it would be an AWESOME idea to charge PvPers to transmute.

They still have charges and are still garbage, they still remove us from our attunement, nothing has changed.

Pyriall.5027:

One step forward and two steps back. Where as previously, if I wanted to change up my skins I just grabbed it out of my locker. Now I have to buy charges when I want to change my look?

What was the purpose of gaining those skins in the first place?

“To bring PvP in line with how the rest of the game works.” said Justin Odell in another thread.

But, everything about sPvP is different by nature, why would you purposely homogenize the different game modes? By now you guy’s have to understand that the sPvP players are feeling like the red-headed stepchild, and this is just another negative change that no one wanted or asked for. A lot of enjoyment from sPvP was garnered from the ability to play all the classes in the mists without having to level each one. Adding an extra step to the process, at this stage of the game, was just silly.

“To bring PvP in line with how the rest of the game works.” says, to me at least, that the sPvP team is being scaled down even more, and merging features of different game modes allows Anet to use PvE staff to dictate how sPvP features are affected.

This is not a good change or a good sign of the future for sPvP.

With sPvP in such a state of turmoil, and with the rapidly declining drop in the sPvP population, why would you feel it is a good idea to introduce changes like this? I wish you devs had the ability to speak freely without fear of repercussions from your supervisors.

Just plain awful. I have to use transmutation charges in the mists? Why? What was your reasoning behind this decision? sPvP is supposed to be all inclusive, free from PvE type nickel-and-diming like this.

Brew Pinch.5731:

Guys, just stop.

Downed state is absolutely excellent and creates great gameplay moments and opportunities.

Enough minority qq, go discuss something legit.

/lock

Nice troll.

Explain to me how adding a completely unnecessary mechanic creates great gameplay moments? In the history of competitive gaming, has there ever been a game that was successful that had such features?

The downstate has never succeeded at adding any great gameplay moments because it, by its very nature, is designed to ruin good, and more importantly, successful, gameplay. Excellent timing and superior skills are smashed into a giant wall that is the downstate, limiting further momentum your team may have created in the process. Everything comes crashing to a halt when someone goes into the downstate, its like its own stupid little mini-game you have to slog through in order to get back to the action.

At its core, GW2 has a great and memorable combat system. It has a LOT of potential to be a real contender in the e-sports scene. Things like the downstate really hold it back. Think about the other side of e-sports, the audience. Who enjoys watching someone, who by all rights should be dead, lay there in a stupid prone position while his flock of teammates stops everything they’re doing to come and get him back up? All of the action of that teamfight, all of the suspense and adrenaline and momentum is just straight GONE because of some silly feature that was included because no one else had done it. Unique=/=good.

All class balance aside, PvP was fun and engaging when I played, but something I could never get over was how frustrating it was when I 1v2/3 opponents, won (got them to the downstate) and was then attacked and downed by 2/3 people spamming their downstate skills. Or had their friends show up and rez them. OR when one loss in a teamfight resulted in the entire team standing back up again (even when it was in our favor, it was the dumbest mechanic i’ve encountered in competitive games).

It simply has no place in the competitive scene, and will continue to hold this game back from achieving greatness as a game.

Also remove downstate.

I’ve been saying it since beta, remove downstate and tone down the burst/tank extremes.

You already removed underwater pvp because, well because it was just plain awful. It’s time to make this game worth something and remove the downstate.

Arheundel.6451:

I’m having some serious LAg problems, like my character will freeze for several seconds, jumping all over the places…
I’m not the only one having these problems, any eta on fixes?

I’ve been having these problems for months, with no end in sight. Its not even brutal lag spikes, its terrible, consistent lag intervals that make relying on timed attacks downright impossible. Even when I think i’ve gotten the average lag time down, and attempt to compensate, it changes, becoming slightly longer or shorter, and renders the game unplayable.

Of course, then I go to PvE-Land and im totally lag free.

We have to make sure we aren’t making you guys download new clients all the time for fixes.

Or else…what? Schedule small fixes on a weekly basis (like some longstanding mmo’s do) and we all can expect it. Hey weekly small fixes! Yay!

ThiBash.5634:

Jigain.8231:

Trying to think if Gandalf ever used Glamdring along with his staff in the movie, and I’m drawing a blank.

Didn’t he do that at the end of the battle for Helmsdeep? It’d have been from horseback though.

He did, him and Pippen (sp?) were getting attacked, Gandalf slashed a few orcs and then Pippen had his HUZZAH moment when he stabbed one.

Well right, but the only way to prevent that would be to make enormous nerfs across all professions so that it would be harder to do everything. I think it would be better to continue improving support skills across the board while making them less selfish at the same time, to prevent power creep.

I have no problems with the idea of toning down everything else in order to bring support up. The game needs far less spike damage and bunkering ability.

However if you are ele and running dungeon with me, if you running with staff and has no conjure to compensate your lack of dps, I will be kitten sure to kick you out.

Boy, you sound like a delight to play with.

I think I missed something. Are they making it so you can cap a point while invuln now?

What’s next, capping it while stealthed too?

It’s also hard to justify building for support only because there are only five people per team and you don’t have to sacrifice much support to also get good damage, survivability, or control, or all of the above.

This is the problem right here. Support isn’t prominent because there is no incentive to give up good damage, survivability, or control, in order to benefit the team. You benefit the team more by getting 2 (or even all 3) of those traits all in one build.

ronpierce.2760:

Hammerheart.1426:

Exactly. Though, like I said, I don’t think it would be sufficient if NONE of the support affected the caster too. Just have a BETTER use on others. (we have to survive too, we can’t be just simply burned down and moved to the next or we’d be pretty useless) Just be sure of that. I mean as a healing warrior CURRENTLY, with heals affecting me, depending on the stuns/burst/or heavy conditions I can still pretty easily be knocked on my butt :/

Played properly, the enemy is having such a hard time with the people you are supporting (assuming they aren’t pants-on-head-kittened), that you cannot be their priority target. But how is this balanced so that support classes aren’t absolutely required? Are there balanced advantages/disadvantages for not having a support role on your team?

Support classes, caught alone, should get severely punished for not fulfilling their role. There should also be different types of support, it can’t all be the same. CC Support, Minor sustained Healing/Cleansing support (obviously we can’t have a dedicated healer in this game), mitigation support, area denial support, etc.

Ideally the balance is that a healer would be less personally defensive than a bunker (but more than a DPS) but have little to no dps, thus bringing another DPS could realistically kill off enemy healers quickly. If anything it gives burst roles more of a significant use.

Oh, I know WE know balance, my question was simultaneously rhetorical and sarcastically aimed at Anet.

Exactly. Though, like I said, I don’t think it would be sufficient if NONE of the support affected the caster too. Just have a BETTER use on others. (we have to survive too, we can’t be just simply burned down and moved to the next or we’d be pretty useless) Just be sure of that. I mean as a healing warrior CURRENTLY, with heals affecting me, depending on the stuns/burst/or heavy conditions I can still pretty easily be knocked on my butt :/

Played properly, the enemy is having such a hard time with the people you are supporting (assuming they aren’t pants-on-head-kittened), that you cannot be their priority target. But how is this balanced so that support classes aren’t absolutely required? Are there balanced advantages/disadvantages for not having a support role on your team?

Support classes, caught alone, should get severely punished for not fulfilling their role. There should also be different types of support, it can’t all be the same. CC Support, Minor sustained Healing/Cleansing support (obviously we can’t have a dedicated healer in this game), mitigation support, area denial support, etc.

Excellent examples of support types from other PvP Games.

Voltar and Genji from Awesomenauts. – Voltar can provide a small robot that generates an aoe heal over time during teamfights, and also can provide a slight knockback against enemy ’nauts. His auto attack also does no damage, but heals allies a small amount. Genji can cocoon enemies, and grant a damage mitigating shield to allies, the shield can also do a small burst heal. Both of them can turn a teamfight into your favor.

Support.

Dark Seer from Dota2 (only hero I am really familiar with). His three moves are; an aoe vaccuum that pulls enemies into the center of the radius, a shielding effect that causes damage to things in melee range of whoever has it, and a speed buff.

Support.

Notice nowhere did I say that these “heroes” are tanky/bunkery/hard to kill. We need more stuff like this that is actually viable.

Staff Ele support should be on par with Guardian support.

Cleansing conditions, granting boons to allies, area denial, etc.

I loved making my character, The Fudge, in APB’s engine.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Hammerheart.1426:

In all honesty, if they were to give us a new weapon, it’d either be the sword or the greatsword.

Why greatsword when we have an elite conjure? Where’s your logic?

Why a bow/shield/hammer when we have a conjure?

Because the sword/greatsword are the ones most likely to “fit” into the wizard role. Personally I hope they throw us a loop and give us something nuts like the rifle or pistols.

In all honesty, if they were to give us a new weapon, it’d either be the sword or the greatsword.

Uh, how are you forgetting the Rifle?

Imagine it.

At this point, people are eschewing playing the cheese builds in order to get a head start on the coming meta change.

jmatb.6307:

You know Hammerheart I think you’re on to something.

I’m gonna drop any objective measurement of my success and do this the entire time when I come back to GW2

Until they fix the game, the only thing worth doing is killing people.

Or, in your case, getting dunked.

CachoDm.4639:

This game is addicting in fact I bet you 1g you won’t quit. I uninstalled the game and in a matter of hours I was back downloading it again. Reroll~ I’m tired of posting stuff like this my friend said they are working on solutions for everything, in the mean time Ill soloQ and try to find a team

Sidenote:I wish I was 21+ so I could get drunk while playing it would be way more fun because i wouldn’t rage at players

Stream of conciousness crits you for 8999!

hackks.3687:

Just out of curiosity why is that people assume complex builds are supposed to be better than simple ones?

GW2 PvP is fast paced combat where you need to make decisions quickly and without hesitation. By using a more complex build you are giving yourself more questions to decide and execute in fractions of a second. If a complex build is not working for you then you might need to consider how much complexity you are actually capable of utilizing before you end up making things harder for yourself. If it takes “player A” 3 button presses to do the same thing that “player B” is doing in 2 or even 1 button presses, then “player A” is obviously less efficient. Is player A making a trade off though in efficiency for Power or Sustainability? Was the trade off advantageous for the fight he’s engaging in? There’s more going on in each and every fight than merely simple vs complex.

My point is, just because it has a lot of buttons doesn’t always means it’s better for each and every player or in each and every fight.

You can’t assume that complexity of a build directly correlates to tilting risk/reward in your favor.

That was one of the first things I learned playing Engi.

I agree. Sometimes, especially in this game, keeping it simple gives you clear options when it comes to engaging opponents. Of course, this sometimes reduces a build’s potential versatility, but thats all part of the game. Experimentation, theorycrafting, etc.

Winning in this game means killing someone you set out to kill. Having your team win a match means next to nothing when the devs cant even get two teams of similar mmr to face each other.

Even the PAX tournament victory was like, “Whoopee.” But that was an organized tournament and does not reflect the game as a whole. Hell, even when this game was at its peak, the population was still staggeringly low by esports comparison, its just that, when the top teams/players did finally leave, they left a gaping hole in an already sinking canoe of a game.

So thats what its come down to, the only real competition is your fellow player, and grinding them into your boot is the objective. The real scrubs in this game are the tournament jockeys.

You’re cherry picking your quotes and using them out of context.

The first section of the article describes everything in the context of Fighting games. A lot of the core of what he has to say applies to all competitive games, but his examples are specifically for Fighting games like Street Fighter, Marvel vs Capcom, etc.

Here’s a good quote, “…But there is a limit. There is a point when the bug becomes too much. In tournaments, bugs that turn the game off, or freeze it indefinitely, or remove one of the characters from the playfield permanently are banned. Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs…”

or

“…It’s extreme examples like this that even amongst the top players, and even something that isn’t a bug, but was put in on purpose by the game designers, the community as a whole has unanimously decided to make the rule: “don’t play Akuma in serious matches…”

jmatb.6307:

Trolling is different then engaging emotions. I’m not bringing unconstructive, distracting, or irrelevant crap to the forum that doesn’t serve a purpose.

You two are mad again but trust me you won’t forget that book any time soon.

For the record, you didn’t bring the book to our attention, we only joined the conversation to clarify the misconceptions you’ve been trying to spread around regarding the message of the book.

jmatb.6307:

Subtlety is fun.

The classical definition of rhetoric in Ancient Greece included logos, pathos, and ethos. Logos = logical argument. Ethos = moral relevance. Pathos = emotional engagement.

I want to make people mad reading my post. If I just recommend the book and make a boring interpretation of it nobody would care and my goal, which I will let people try to figure out for themselves, will not have been accomplished.

The post is working well

Perhaps the community would be more inclined to listen if you didn’t try to troll them. Now you just look like a jagoff.

jmatb.6307:

You’re seeing what you want to see. I never said anything about what I’m running.

I’m just saying whining and complaining and kittening and moaning about everything you’re getting beat by is irrelevant.

So you’re basically saying, “Deal with it.”

That’s fine, but telling people not to complain is like trying to stop the sun from rising.

hackks.3687:

I just read the whole thing and in my opinion OP you didn’t understand it all….

He does not define a scrub as someone who is unwilling to resort to fotm builds, exploiting bugs/broken skills as your posting here would lead people to believe. They are merely players who have not yet made the leap from “hitting buttons to have fun” to “hitting buttons with strategic intent”.

He does not promote using broken skills/mechanics/etc. but explains that a competitive player “playing to win” in a competitive game will consider all tools available to him and use what gives him the best chance to win – that is not equivalent to using the easy mode build as he explains a good player will know how to counter or adapt in the coarse of the fight to counter. He later states that commonly the best players are the ones using unorthodox or even the commonly perceived “weakest” classes because they see potential and value where others merely adopt whatever is considered to be the strongest and that those players largely do not reside in the top tier of that game.

At no point did I take his meaning of “Playing to Win” as the “only way to have fun in a competitive game” but rather when playing a competitive game (and actually playing it competitively) winning is the goal – by which the purpose of the book is to explain rudimentary strategy and thought processes to better enable players to that end.

It’s not nearly as divisive or inflammatory or ill-spirited as you make it out to be. Quite the opposite in fact.

If anyone is interested in learning more about, or getting a refresher in, strategy and the mental processes important to devising winning strategies/play-styles, I’d say it’s worth a read. Not very long either.

edit: now that I think about it though, my question to the community at large would be “is GW2 in fact competitive and is it even worth worrying about winning?”

+1

To OP, its clear that you need all the broken/cheese/bugs on your side in order to win, or to give yourself the impression that you are winning. So regardless of your score at the end of the game, you are still a scrub.

It was a good read, and I highly reccomend it to people having a hard time in competitive games. The biggest mistake people make is they play the game as their characters. They play within the confines of the aesthetics of the game, the setting, etc. You have to remove all of the surface flair of it and calculate your moves based on hard numbers, game mechanics, interaction with environment, I could spend an entire thread listing everything involved.

I will admit, sometimes not immersing yourself in the game’s world (the art of the world) can get boring, or stale, but winning is never boring or stale. Maybe you don’t want to play the game at breakneck speeds constantly, and want to take a mental break and just enjoy the scenery.

Thats when its time to PvE.

Divinity.8041:

Hammerheart.1426:

Xcom.1926:

No it is bad design. If there is an overpowered build players will use it. Designers know this better than anyone. So they should design the game without OP specs, easier said than done, I agree.

But players will chose the path of least resistance, your should design your game for that.

Wrong. Its called integrity, and I have it. Thankfully, I am not alone in my choice to not play broken or cheese builds. Does it make the game harder? Of course it does, but we earn our kills.

The players have more control over the state of the game than they realize. Once they stop using the builds, and collectively incentivize others to not use the problem builds, we can move forward with the pieces of the game that we do enjoy.

Integrity? Let’s not try get e-noble here.

That is like not accepting money because you don’t want handouts. Someone will get the money, and you will be SOL. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

You keep your pride there buddy.

ANET created something that needs to be fixed, that is all. Humans will always choose the easiest most effective route.

If I wanted to make 30k a year, I could be a manager at Mcdonalds, but what you are saying is like saying I want to go get my PHD to make 30k a year doing social work. Acting like your 30k is somehow worth more than my 30k

Such a stupid statement to make. Let me hinder myself by purposely choosing a worse off spec to get facerolled by noobs all day, cool story bro.

Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire. People will always choose the cheese in life, deal with it.

I main mesmer btw.

You sound like you need every possible advantage to not look like a fool. Sucks to be you I guess.

People don’t always choose the cheese in life, thats a kittening kittened statement.

“Everyone dopes in baseball, so I guess I will too because its easier!”

It isn’t war, its a game. I don’t get facerolled by noobs using the cheesiest broken build because I have the skill to back up the playstyle I enjoy. So keep that cheese kitten to yourself, and continue to know that the only reason you kill someone isn’t because you’re skilled, its because you’re buying into the hype.

Xcom.1926:

Hammerheart.1426:

Wrong. Its called integrity, and I have it. Thankfully, I am not alone in my choice to not play broken or cheese builds. Does it make the game harder? Of course it does, but we earn our kills.

That’s nice, but it doesn’t matter what you are. You don’t design games with the basis of all all players having “integrity”, that would be foolish. Players just take the path to least resistance, and developers have to develop for that.

Your statement that players just take the path of least resistance is false.

Psychogene.6780:

Its always going to be like this though, you can blame the player but you have to blame anet for making it so easy for people to be cheesy. Everyone plays games to relax (get away from real life), they want wins because its the enjoyable part of pvp but at the same time they want to make it as easy for themselves as they can to win.

All it takes is a few people to abuse the overpowered class/builds and then all of a sudden everyone is following in their footsteps. What i hate is random people abusing other players for ‘playing ele/mesmer’ in thinking that because they play easy to play OP classes they have a somewhat superior skill advantage.

They should give underpowered builds (staff elementalist, scepter mesmers and others) double the exp/glory/mmr bonus, might give people more incentive to try play them (and then again maybe not). Heck, staff elementalists should get triple the bonus in its current state!

Anet is mostly to blame, but that doesn’t excuse the players. I have personally played with top (at the time) players and teams who would use the dirtiest tricks in order to squeeze a win out. Made me never want to play with them.

I do agree that Anet does play the role of enabler though.

Xcom.1926:

No it is bad design. If there is an overpowered build players will use it. Designers know this better than anyone. So they should design the game without OP specs, easier said than done, I agree.

But players will chose the path of least resistance, your should design your game for that.

Wrong. Its called integrity, and I have it. Thankfully, I am not alone in my choice to not play broken or cheese builds. Does it make the game harder? Of course it does, but we earn our kills.

The players have more control over the state of the game than they realize. Once they stop using the builds, and collectively incentivize others to not use the problem builds, we can move forward with the pieces of the game that we do enjoy.

Let me provide you with a tl;dr

The players choose to play broken/cheese specs in order to glory farm and win tournaments. This cheapens the overall gameplay if the only viable builds are broken/cheese. The players are directly contributing to the poor state of the game by choosing to play these specs.

I agree 100%.

Why do people still think that this is going to be “the patch.”

We’ve gotten, what, 3 or 4 “PvP Balance Big Time Rush” patches since launch, and what have they done to the balance? Tossed it right in the gutter.

This won’t be any different. Anet does not have the resources or drive to make a game-changer.

I would rather see them take 5 months and actually deliver a patch that was worth a kitten .

But yes I agree with you.

Let me clarify something, I don’t mean for them to implement a rollback on the live servers. Although re-reading my first post that is exactly what I’m calling for.

They’ve gotten so far ahead of themselves, that each “balance” patch is always a scramble for them to fix mistakes from the last patch, whilst simultaneously adding features that were neither asked for, nor are good for balance.

I am suggesting that they, on some sort of test server, start with an at-launch build and work forward from there, using past mistakes as guidlines. Of course, this also calls for them to rethink their stance on splitting skills, which as it stands, is just laziness on their part.

NevirSayDie.6235:

At launch, engineers had permanent, unstrippable stability on flamethrower. Kit refinement was good for a double super elixir as well as a condi removal every ten seconds from flamethrower. Smoke bomb pulsed every second in a much larger AoE. Incendiary powder had no internal cooldown. Elixir R had 85 seconds base cooldown.

They got nerfed into the ground and then were basically unseen in tournaments for a month or two. Seriously, I would sometimes play an entire evening and only see 1-2 other engineers, total, in all my matches. Then they got a ton of bugfixes and buffs to unused skills, and now they’ve had a really large variety of good tournament builds for several months.

One professions seemingly good ending doesn’t sway my opinion. One step forward in terms of balance is always three steps backwards with Anet. They need to find their footing again before they can fix this game.

It has become pretty clear that the PvP devs keep digging themselves a bigger hole for us to play in, and its not fun anymore.

You guys keep records of how things used to be right? Roll it back. Roll back the professions to how they were at launch, apply all the bug fixes you guys implemented, and start over.

Its like when you keep fixing up a drawing but all you can see are the god kitten ed eraser marks. Its time to get a new piece of paper and start over.

Underwater Combat is bad.

Caro.2730:

I’m constantly offended. My current favourites are:

- Do you feel strong with all of these clones little boy? Yes, you do. You know why? Because you are a clone “nub”

My go-to vitriol was “Go clone yourself some friends.”

But I always hated mesmers.