Guild Wars 2

Niekas.3854:

Velimere.7685:

Niekas.3854:

A person who held a home point for 10 minutes and has 10 points while his team lost the game trying to 4v5 is equal to the same as a person who has 10 points and solo died 15 times trying to take back home.

Points do matter. Learn to rotate.

10*60/2=300

That’s 300 team score holding 1 captured point for 10 minutes.

Now make the math for enemies holding 2 points because they are winning 5v4. I am not saying bunkering a point is not good, i am saying that if the guy bunkering gets ignored by the enemies – it usually turns all the way around.

Congratulations on rehashing an argument that had not only been fully answered more than once in this thread, but it pretty irrelevant. Try reading the thread first?

CooloutAC.3451:

more often then not, its a guy who sucked, 9 times out of 10. The guy who gets the lowest score on the team, and I don’t just mean lower, i mean significantly lower like he was in a diff league, because he successfully scared everyone away from him on a base and never had to fight or assist anybody, is very rare. I’m not saying its not possible or that a high scorer is the most valuable player always. Just most of the time

Prove it.

dank.3680:

IsilZha.3608:

dank.3680:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

StickerHappy.8052:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

StickerHappy.8052:

SCORE DOES MATTER

If the rest of the team has 100+ and you have 30, and it was a close game.

Definitely you are dead weight

Well typing everything with uppercase letters help almost as much as score does to a game.

So you are calling me dead weight when I defend home point from being captured through a whole match? Now usually I do get scores sometimes, I do this as there are players trying to take home point and I kill them but most of the time I get to fight Eles or other tanky builds and the fight can go on for almost the whole match if I don’t get help. But I know for sure that as long as I keep the cap point in my teams colour I am contributing to the team with or without any personal score. On the other hand for a tanky build trying to take the cap from an enemy player and who never succeeds to cap the point, well that player is a dead weight.

Please read first.

It would NOT be a close match if you bunked or defended the whole game.

I did read and I did understand it quite well mind you. If I defend or not won’t result in uneven matches, it is all depend on what strategys both teams are using. As a defender I evaluate if I am needed at home for example and I may move to another location if needed but still as a bunker I am traited to be guarding a point from being captured by the enemy team thus I will stay on a captured point and thus I will not gain very much personal score, still I am doing a darn good job holding a point from the enemies if they try to take it but I can keep them from doing that but still I gain no score.

My other teammates can make mistakes and we will loose points so we can iether loose, win or we can have a very close match. Defending capture points is one of the most important positions in this game and it usually gives you the least points.

And if you stubbornly sit on home point and the enemy team ignores you while 5v4’ing your team on the map?

That would be bad. But that’s not what’s being argued.

A player with a low score could be bad/not contributing, but they could equally be the most valuable player on the team, because the argument is that the personal scoring is highly flawed and not a good indicator of actual contribution .

I agree, just showing the other side of “I have low points because I bunkered home” argument.

The bunkering was just one example of how the personal score doesn’t show contribution to victory. Otherwise you and I are in agreement. If I show you a scoreboard where one guy on the winning team had a really low score, without seeing the match, you can’t say if he was useless and afk most of the match, or the MVP who ensured victory.

Then you have games like the examples I posted where everyone on the enemy team got a higher score than anyone on the winning team, in a game where it wasn’t even close. My first example I actually remember. The enemy team would abandon even finishing a capture to chase down kills, and never return to take it back. They would constantly zerg into extended brawls in the middle of no where while we owned all the capture points.

CooloutAC.3451:

IsilZha.3608:

CooloutAC.3451:

IsilZha.3608:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Stalemating a point in your favor for 10 min without anybody going down will yield you no point at all save the initial take, yet you made sure your team got the income points all that time.

Just to illustrate using your own example, let’s say it was on Kyhlo. The first player holds a capture point for 10 minutes, but never gets a kill (thieves keep trying to back cap and just retreat, for sake of argument.) The second player operated the trebuchet for a bit, and then roamed around making kills, ignoring the capture points.

Player 1
Capping point: 10 points
Holding for 10 minutes, all opponents flee: 0 Points

Total Personal score: 10

Team score towards victory:
1 point every 2 seconds that capture point is held for 10 minutes = 300 points towards victory.

Player 2
Getting 10 kills off-point to grant “skirmisher” bonus: 150
20 Trebuchet hits: 60

Total personal score: 210 (21x the guy holding a point)

10 kills x 5 points per kill = 50 points towards victory.
Trebuchet scoring does not contribute to victory.

In this example, the person with 21x the personal score only contributed 1/6th as much towards actual victory as the guy that held a point all match.

Trebuchet hits? thats your example?

yes a kill is only 5 points very good. 10 kills off points? thats quite alot. Also you mean to tell me noone ever contested player 1 bunking the home base? he just stood there and never had to fight anyone the whole match? unlikely. more likely is he would also get a couple kills, had to recap once or twice….. And i’m not sure how the point system actually works, but i do know there is lots of top player stats for all diff things at the end of matches….. including boons applied, removed, conditions, defend points, etc…

I did indicate, that in my example, the point behind defended was under constant attack. But you know, if you have to pick out parts of an example to make your (still) weak argument even work, I guess even you don’t see yourself as having a good one.

Here, have some real end game examples, of the few I actually bothered to even screen shot:

http://i.imgur.com/VHGE8jJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/pBO9D9N.png
http://i.imgur.com/zVCJYre.png

Hey look, personal score fails to directly correlate to victory.

whats even weaker is using trebuchet points to try and prove your point lol.

Again, I highly doubt the guy bunking home all game was never contested and never got any assist points for anything.

“I’m going to make kitten up and ignore real facts presented”

So showing real end game stats where the losing team had much higher personal scores doesn’t prove that personal scores are a poor indicator of achieving victory? Oh right, you ignored anything contrary to your position again.

Got it. Continue being willfully ignorant since you refuse to admit you’re wrong even in the face of unquestionable evidence against it. Bye.

dank.3680:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

StickerHappy.8052:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

StickerHappy.8052:

SCORE DOES MATTER

If the rest of the team has 100+ and you have 30, and it was a close game.

Definitely you are dead weight

Well typing everything with uppercase letters help almost as much as score does to a game.

So you are calling me dead weight when I defend home point from being captured through a whole match? Now usually I do get scores sometimes, I do this as there are players trying to take home point and I kill them but most of the time I get to fight Eles or other tanky builds and the fight can go on for almost the whole match if I don’t get help. But I know for sure that as long as I keep the cap point in my teams colour I am contributing to the team with or without any personal score. On the other hand for a tanky build trying to take the cap from an enemy player and who never succeeds to cap the point, well that player is a dead weight.

Please read first.

It would NOT be a close match if you bunked or defended the whole game.

I did read and I did understand it quite well mind you. If I defend or not won’t result in uneven matches, it is all depend on what strategys both teams are using. As a defender I evaluate if I am needed at home for example and I may move to another location if needed but still as a bunker I am traited to be guarding a point from being captured by the enemy team thus I will stay on a captured point and thus I will not gain very much personal score, still I am doing a darn good job holding a point from the enemies if they try to take it but I can keep them from doing that but still I gain no score.

My other teammates can make mistakes and we will loose points so we can iether loose, win or we can have a very close match. Defending capture points is one of the most important positions in this game and it usually gives you the least points.

And if you stubbornly sit on home point and the enemy team ignores you while 5v4’ing your team on the map?

That would be bad. But that’s not what’s being argued.

A player with a low score could be bad/not contributing, but they could equally be the most valuable player on the team, because the argument is that the personal scoring is highly flawed and not a good indicator of actual contribution .

CooloutAC.3451:

IsilZha.3608:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Stalemating a point in your favor for 10 min without anybody going down will yield you no point at all save the initial take, yet you made sure your team got the income points all that time.

Just to illustrate using your own example, let’s say it was on Kyhlo. The first player holds a capture point for 10 minutes, but never gets a kill (thieves keep trying to back cap and just retreat, for sake of argument.) The second player operated the trebuchet for a bit, and then roamed around making kills, ignoring the capture points.

Player 1
Capping point: 10 points
Holding for 10 minutes, all opponents flee: 0 Points

Total Personal score: 10

Team score towards victory:
1 point every 2 seconds that capture point is held for 10 minutes = 300 points towards victory.

Player 2
Getting 10 kills off-point to grant “skirmisher” bonus: 150
20 Trebuchet hits: 60

Total personal score: 210 (21x the guy holding a point)

10 kills x 5 points per kill = 50 points towards victory.
Trebuchet scoring does not contribute to victory.

In this example, the person with 21x the personal score only contributed 1/6th as much towards actual victory as the guy that held a point all match.

Trebuchet hits? thats your example?

yes a kill is only 5 points very good. 10 kills off points? thats quite alot. Also you mean to tell me noone ever contested player 1 bunking the home base? he just stood there and never had to fight anyone the whole match? unlikely. more likely is he would also get a couple kills, had to recap once or twice….. And i’m not sure how the point system actually works, but i do know there is lots of top player stats for all diff things at the end of matches….. including boons applied, removed, conditions, defend points, etc…

I did indicate, that in my example, the point behind defended was under constant attack. But you know, if you have to pick out parts of an example to make your (still) weak argument even work, I guess even you don’t see yourself as having a good one.

Here, have some real end game examples, of the few I actually bothered to even screen shot:

http://i.imgur.com/VHGE8jJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/pBO9D9N.png
http://i.imgur.com/zVCJYre.png

Hey look, personal score fails to directly correlate to victory.

No one’s arguing that strategies need to adapt or anything, either. The bunkers are examples of why you can’t just look at personal score and say someone was playing awful.

The argument (and fact) is that personal score is a very poor indicator of actual contribution towards victory. It is completely unreliable and in many cases rewards game-losing play (pad muh K/D and ignore the objective,) and doesn’t reward game-winning play (holding a capture point from from attack.)

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Stalemating a point in your favor for 10 min without anybody going down will yield you no point at all save the initial take, yet you made sure your team got the income points all that time.

Just to illustrate using your own example, let’s say it was on Kyhlo. The first player holds a capture point for 10 minutes, but never gets a kill (thieves keep trying to back cap and just retreat, for sake of argument.) The second player operated the trebuchet for a bit, and then roamed around making kills, ignoring the capture points.

Player 1
Capping point: 10 points
Holding for 10 minutes, all opponents flee: 0 Points

Total Personal score: 10

Team score towards victory:
1 point every 2 seconds that capture point is held for 10 minutes = 300 points towards victory.

Player 2
Getting 10 kills off-point to grant “skirmisher” bonus: 150
20 Trebuchet hits: 60

Total personal score: 210 (21x the guy holding a point)

10 kills x 5 points per kill = 50 points towards victory.
Trebuchet scoring does not contribute to victory.

In this example, the person with 21x the personal score only contributed 1/6th as much towards actual victory as the guy that held a point all match.

Aidenwolf.5964:

StickerHappy.8052:

SCORE DOES MATTER

If the rest of the team has 100+ and you have 30, and it was a close game.

Definitely you are dead weight

Absolute nonsense. You’re the kind of player I get grouped with in this shambles of a tourney, the kind who shouts without knowing. Bunkers will almost always have low scores but without them you’re not winning. Also, keeping far decapped all match is more valuable than stomping 10 players but will not generate a high individual score.

Just to really throw support onto this, I’m going to quote myself from reddit:

s it stands, the following will get you significantly more personal score:

If you stand and successfully defend a point, you may get a kill, they may flee. So you might get 0 to 15 points. The entire time that point is constantly generating points towards victory.

However, if you intentionally let them take the point, then spend time fighting off it and get the kill, you get 15 for killing off point (because for some reason you get more points for making kills off point), another 10 for neutralizing the point and then another 10 for fully taking it, giving you 35 personal score. But that is an abjectly worse strategy. You gave up a bunch of ticks to the other team. You get better personal score for playing a losing strategy.

And of course, you get plenty of these:

http://i.imgur.com/pBO9D9N.png

Note that their player with the lowest score, had a higher score than our highest (which happened to be me) but the game wasn’t even close – we won by a landslide. I remember this game, too – I recall even noting mid-match that the other team was more concerned with personal score kitten and padding kill counts than winning the game. Exactly like what the OP described as “contributing.”

Soa Cirri.6012:

Keeping this short, I’ll narrow down on one of the many issues here. Here is clarification about what is relevant to the argument I refer to in this case:
“Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off. " = The main argument against DH virtues
(‘10x’, using reading comprehension is of course not meant to be an objective quantitative figure, and is a substitution for “much” or “a lot”.)

So in effect, this is the OP’s argument: DH virtues are “much” better than core/base virtues with no trade-off.
Now it seems obvious, again, using reading comprehension, to see, given the comparisons used in this one sentence, that the DH virtues are being compared to the base virtues, and the argument being made that superiority of the DH virtues come without cost to the build itself.

Thank you captain obvious. Please quote me where I took the “10x better” as an absolute statement. Go ahead… no? Oh that’s right, I didn’t. For the same reason, it’s not proof of anything, just a general statement that the Elite Spec virtues are better. Just like traiting the base specs up makes them better than the base. Weird.

reading comprehension

Oh god, the irony. Let’s see why…

Now, I’m just going to isolate SoJ for the sake of expediency, and because it was the most detailed “rebuttal,” given that the others were throwaway one-liners without a serious comparison being made.

The OP assertion was:
SoJ has a 20 second CD, is a pull, does power and condition damage, has a 1/4sec cast time, is barely telegraphed, and is unblockable. The contextual assertion is that this is better than a base VoJ, which is merely a periodic burn and an active aoe party burn.

Do you seriously believe that a weak passive/aoe burn and a weak party burn (considering this is the PvP forum, and in PvP full party benefits from active VoJ are laughably unlikely) is an equal, horizontal shift from SoJ, which can cripple and vuln as well as burn and be a pull?

When given the option between those two choices, are you seriously saying that, because SoJ needs to be aimed at all, can’t always hit multiple targets (which is only the benefit of a traited VoJ btw, which ALSO affects SoJ), can be evaded, and has a cast time, you would seriously scratch your chin and think, “Hmmm… which do I really want more? They’re both so good.”

Because saying his argument is wrong is essentially arguing just that.

I don’t recall saying that the elite spec virtues were not better than the base… hmmm, perhaps you could quote where I said that? Oh? I didn’t? Okay… Who are you actually arguing against?

Disingenuous is putting it very generously.

The skill was also compared to the engie magnet, which has 5 times the cast time, an obvious magnety animation, and does no damage at all.

You pointed out that the cooldown was 40 seconds, not 20. You also said, and reiterating that this was a comparison to engie pull afterwards, you clarify afterwards that you yourself are comparing specifically to the “other pull,” presumably being the engie pull as that was the only other one mentioned.

Two skills don’t do the exact same thing (one with a much longer cool down) – news at 11.

Oh, now it’s reading comprehension time!

IsilZha.3608:

the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

So let’s proceed using this comparison now.

1. you have to be facing the target
-engie pull is the same, so this isn’t a comparative disadvantage
2. cast time
-DH is .25sec, engie is 1.25sec. That’s a 500% difference in favor of the DH pull
3. it only hits one target
-except when it hits multiple, according to your own words, which makes it a comparative advantage to the single-target engie pull
4. can be evaded
-this is not a disadvantage over the engie pull, and the .25sec cast time makes it significantly harder to evade than the engie pull, along with its quicker-erg-harder-to-read-animation
5. cooldown
-DH is 40, engie is 25. THIS IS THE ONE FACTUAL INACCURACY MADE IN THE OP ON THIS ENTIRE ISSUE
And you left out this:
Does damage
-Engie pull does 0 damage
Is free, and slotted automatically on DH
-Engie needs to slot repair kit in the utility bar in order to gain this utility

So. What are the major advantages of the SoJ over engie? The 5xsuperiority of the cast time, the (2?3?5x? the wiki has very little information, and states only the 20second cooldown and passive effects, making it hard to verify this by merely researching it, so your extensive DH experience would help in this matter) superiority of the number of targets, and its free addition to the virtues bar, and direct and condi damage. Disadvantages? A roughly 1.5x cooldown.

And yet, despite the fact that cooldown is the ONE thing not in SoJ’s favor, it is the ONE thing you singled out in comparison and have been harping on since the first post, I would guess because it serves your point that the DH mechanics are not overpowered.

All those comparisons and time spent… too bad I could’ve sworn they weren’t being compared to the engineer, but the declaration that they “had no trade-offs” (compared to the base virtues.) Oh right, that’s exactly what it was.

IsilZha.3608:

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

Why yes, it appears you’ve failed to actually read what I was responding to and wrote up a long rebuttal to an argument I didn’t make. I even quoted it for you (again.) Oops. Abort? Retry? Fail?

Novuake.2691:

Wait, so I get 2 minor things wrong on DH and suddenly im wrong on every single fact?

Whos fabricating now? I am done with this conversation, hypocrisy is ridiculous.

If by “minor details” you meant to say the exact details you used as justification for them being “broken” that you got wrong then, yes. I see you still don’t have any new arguments to your bumbling and complaining about specific details that you couldn’t even get right.

But I’ve see you’ve decided to make yet another excuse to have no argument and flee. Ta.

Soa Cirri.6012:

IsilZha.3608:

Oh look, another psudo-intellectual who doesn’t actually know an ad hominem is.

Hehe. You wanna do this? Okay.

An ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their argument. Any attack you make on the character of the poster, using terms like

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

is a brazen ad hominem that does nothing to actually reinforce your argument, but does a great deal to make you sound condescending, so GG on that I guess.

If you wanna keep arguing that you haven’t made ad hominems… actually, go ahead. Please. Do so.

Amazing, you googled it and still got it wrong. The main thrust of my argument is pretty clear (for someone paying attention): He declared several DH mechanics were “broken” and then demonstrated that he didn’t actually know what those mechanics were. He has failed to prove his point. My argument was not “you should ignore him because he’s an X” it’s “you should ignore him because he got the facts wrong and did not prove his assertion.”

As for your question: Okay. Let’s tackle this, y’know, logically.

What is the OP’s argument? The OP’s argument is that certain mechanics are OP. The other kind of OP. Obviously.

Now the OP mis-stated the details of some of his supporting evidence. Sure. He even admitted it. However, the core of the argument is based entirely around the mechanics, as they are, being broken. Not around the specifics of the mechanics’ details.

Are you for real? The mechanics are the specific details and they are the core part that actually matters. Otherwise you’re arguing over imaginary mechanics that don’t exist. He argued specific mechanics were broken, and his evidence for the mechanics being broken were factually wrong.

- Stated that Justice is a hard pull on short cooldown and compared it to an Engineer pull being on a 25 second cooldown. This was false – the hard pull is nearly double the cooldown of his example of something that he considered to not be broken. Ignores that it can be evaded can be broken with range, or nullified with stability.
- Stated that the new virtues have “no trade-off.” This has to be willful ignorance because they have clear trade-offs. He has offered up no dispute of the trade-offs I pointed out.
- Stated that Guardian traps are broken because they’re instant cast, calling it “instacast CC or healing.” Both of these are false. There is no instant cast heal trap, and they still have an activation time – they do not take effect instantly. Even if dropped right at your feet you can still evade the two instant-cast traps entirely.

His entire argument for those things being mechanically broken is based on details he left out or just plain made up/assumed. He was too lazy to look it up, and it’s all up on the wiki.

So logically, if I could argue, “This radiator’s broken because the flux capacitor is misaligned,” by your “logic,” you could swoop in and say “HAHA YOU HAVE TO BE A STUPID IDIOT TO SAY THAT BECAUSE HERES A DIAGRAM RADIATORS DONT EVEN HAVE FLUX CAPACITORS! YOU MORON!”

What have you proven?
Radiatiors don’t have flux capacitors.

But you have not proven that the radiator is not broken.

OP has failed to prove his point. The burden of proof doesn’t suddenly shift to me. He made the claim, he has to back it up. And he did not back it up with facts, but with knee-jerk guesses and ignorance. He did not prove his point. I don’t suddenly have to disprove something he never proved in the first place. This is really basic logic. OP is the one making the assertion, not me.

In other words, you are guilty of the actual “fallacy” fallacy. Because parts of the argument weren’t true, you have seen fit to dismiss the entire OP’s OP. Interestingly, you have said that

You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong.

As the core of your fallacy, that statement is, itself, factually incorrect, because some of the OP’s other stated facts are not wrong, and you have admitted your lack of qualifications for verifying the points made about non-DH mechanics. Even the resident mesmer defender’s point in arguing against the OP on his facts, was, itself, factually incorrect. And not only is that statement of yours factually wrong because it is exaggerated, but it’s also disingenuous, and so could be construed as a lie, assuming you read and understood the OP.

Oh that’s interesting. You ignore the actual point being made in favor of warbbling over the minutiae of a single word, and then erroneously conflate it to the entire argument. Yes, I already said I wasn’t commenting on the mesmer, and I’m not. You going back to it is entirely irrelevant.

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

Hmm.

But as you have entirely misconstrued the OP’s argument as “these details are true,” which is obviously weak, rather than the harder to attack “these details support my argument that the mechanics are broken,” that is yet another fallacy: a strawman.

Now you’re just throwing out terms without knowing what they mean, or how they apply. As I explained above in great detail, his “these details support my argument that the mechanics are broken” is not hard to attack, since he got the details wrong. He has very little to nothing to support his argument about broken mechanics when the mechanic’s he explicitly says are a problem don’t exist.

But I’m just a pseudo-intellectual, so what do I know?

Clearly not very basic standards of logic and debate, like burden of proof. Or can I just start tossing out wild assertions based on made up facts and then demand that you disprove it even when my details are made-up or wrong? Or does that only work when you’re the one making the argument?

It’s also interesting to note that in all of this, you haven’t actually addressed the actual points being made of the thread whatsoever. Rather you’ve put all your effort into dancing around trying to weasel around it. So let’s try this again, I guess with more specific wording lest you spend another 3 paragraphs on single word irrelevancies: the mechanics he was arguing that are broken on the DH, which he argued were broken based on a) details completely left out, and b) just plain wrong information. Is this not correct? How can the DH mechanics he described be “broken” when his justification for them were things that just aren’t true? Will you actually answer these questions that directly pertain to the actual topic, or will you go back grasping at straws and arguing about arguing?

The reason ANet won’t change anything based on a thread like this isn’t because they ignore it. They’ll look at it and say “that’s not how this works” and move on to something that actually has a basis in reality.

Novuake.2691:

IsilZha.3608:

What is the point? You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong. When you demonstratively don’t even know what the skills you’re crying about actually do your post is absolutely worthless. Sticking your fingers in your ears when you don’t want to hear the skills don’t do what you think they did and continuing to shout that they’re “broken” based on your stupidity and ignorance accomplishes just one thing: you have no earthly clue what you’re talking about.

I only touched on DH because I know it well and I don’t play Mesmer. Unlike you, I don’t attempt to discuss minute details of things I don’t know. But hey, shockingly, someone else already pointed out you got that wrong too.

The only thing you’ve proven is that you cry about skills you don’t know about, you make-up the facts you don’t know (instead of looking it up,) and then declare you won’t respond when a silly thing like facts gets in the way of your crying. Given your refusal to respond to the rest (making up empty excuses to ignore the facts), it’s clear you’re now being intentionally dishonest to make your “point.”

Great so now im fabricating because I was outdated on the heal, whooptidoo.
Point still stand, the fact that you are hammering so hard one small details when my point is still valid, proves that again, you are just defending something for the sake of it.

Missing the point as per usual on this forum.

What point? You got nearly every fact about every skill wrong. You made claims about broken mechanics, when you don’t even know what those mechanics are. The details matter. I see you’ve completely ignored that 1) the new virtues do have trade-offs, and 2) that like every other trap in the game, all the traps have an activation time, separate from the cast time.

So then by all means – how does your point still stand about “broken mechanics” when you clearly are ignorant of the mechanics you’re complaining about, and under no uncertain terms got them wrong?

Soa Cirri.6012:

Your ad hominems would be much more effective if you used bold and italics more frequently.

Oh look, another psudo-intellectual who doesn’t actually know an ad hominem is. (Hint: it is not any kind of vague insult.) That’s cute that you think that a clear demonstration that the OP got all the actual facts wrong is somehow irrelevant and that you’ve tried to side-step making any kind of actual argument by ignoring the facts.

Hey, let’s ease you into it with a really simple and straight forward question: True or False – the OP was/is ignorant about the skill details he’s complaining about?

I noticed last night that when you’re just jumping into it, going in to ranked solo you will run into a lot of guild/premade teams right now since everyone is basically starting at the ground level. On the flip side, it’s filled with truly awful solo queuers, so you’re likely to get really horrendously bad teammates. Did a stronghold where none of my teammates even know how to play Stronghold at all.

Not sure why so many people are jumping into ranked while clearly having no earthly clue about the basic game objectives/mechanics.

Novuake.2691:

IsilZha.3608:

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

2.1 Instacast traps, they might as well not be called traps. So more unblockable, instacast CC, or if not CC, healing then.

Mechanically these don’t make sense and should not be instant at the very least.
I don’t care what you have to say about how easy DH is too counter or whatnot, mechanically broken. Period.

Hah. Only 2 are instant cast, and one of those is utility (not the heal.) They’re instant cast, not instant effect, as they have an activation time just like all traps.

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Or you’re just totally ignorant and have no idea what you’re talking about. So was it malice or stupidity that you got all the facts wrong?

Very well, I was not aware that the pull had a separate cooldown to the spear itself.
Comment still stands that it is a very low cast time unblockable CC, sure not that regular, but still mechanically broken.

Test of Faith is NOT a utility and is instant cast. 1 heal, 1 damage/cc, 1 utility instacast.

Doubling down on an ignorant statement instead of looking it up makes you look like an even bigger idiot. Are you unable to read English? I said one of them is a utility (fragments of faith.) The heal trap is not an instant cast trap. But hey, continuing with having to lie and make up things in order to make your point.

I won’t respond to anything else you said because you are obviously just here to defend DH, which isn’t the point of the thread.

What is the point? You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong. When you demonstratively don’t even know what the skills you’re crying about actually do your post is absolutely worthless. Sticking your fingers in your ears when you don’t want to hear the skills don’t do what you think they did and continuing to shout that they’re “broken” based on your stupidity and ignorance accomplishes just one thing: you have no earthly clue what you’re talking about.

I only touched on DH because I know it well and I don’t play Mesmer. Unlike you, I don’t attempt to discuss minute details of things I don’t know. But hey, shockingly, someone else already pointed out you got that wrong too.

The only thing you’ve proven is that you cry about skills you don’t know about, you make-up the facts you don’t know (instead of looking it up,) and then declare you won’t respond when a silly thing like facts gets in the way of your crying. Given your refusal to respond to the rest (making up empty excuses to ignore the facts), it’s clear you’re now being intentionally dishonest to make your “point.”

Dahkeus.8243:

Me no have own thoughts. Me spam bot mashing Ctrl+V

Mindless spam bot, got it.

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

2.1 Instacast traps, they might as well not be called traps. So more unblockable, instacast CC, or if not CC, healing then.

Mechanically these don’t make sense and should not be instant at the very least.
I don’t care what you have to say about how easy DH is too counter or whatnot, mechanically broken. Period.

Hah. Only 2 are instant cast, and one of those is utility (not the heal.) They’re instant cast, not instant effect, as they have an activation time just like all traps.

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Or you’re just totally ignorant and have no idea what you’re talking about. So was it malice or stupidity that you got all the facts wrong?

Got a few comments for you, OP. First I’d like to say this is really well written and thought out, much more so than most of the drivel that gets posted here. Secondly, while I really enjoy the PvP and find it to be the most enjoyable MMO PvP, it is definitely not an esport like they said they wanted to.

You touched on several aspects of this, but one really general problem is simply that Anet has really neglected sPvP. In 3 years we finally got one additional game mode and… zero additional maps considered remotely competitive. We got sky hammer and courtyard… and lost raid on the Capricorn. Though admittedly that map wasn’t a good competitive map either.

Conquest has seen no changes, despite issues with competitiveness. I don’t think I agree about it being boring to watch, but there are certainly issues with it being competitive. The biggest thing that many have been wondering for years: why isn’t point capturing done in the standard way that works: capping speed and direction is based on the number of team members on a point. I really think this change would be a good one to make. It would curb cheese things like bunker builds holding on to points against 2 or 3 others, where they don’t even have to make kills, just survive.

On locked builds and lack of spectator skill knowledge:
For the competitive side I think this could be solved by actually showing the builds in a pregame lobby. This would also require being able to save build sets all builds child be changed around (with some limitations.)

On skill knowledge, this is a bit more far reaching, but I think Anet should really go back to the GW1 way of just displaying what skills are being used, for both spectator and player. While it was an interesting idea to want players to watch for animations, there’s problems making that work, and as you say spectators don’t know what’s happening. It worked for GW1. If you have 500 different skills x 5 races x 2 sexes = 5000 animations to learn (yes I know some aren’t that different and other exceptions.) You also have tiny asura that you can’t see, or various other things that would hinder the ability to see what a character is doing.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

ReaperJr.5967:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Ross Biddle.2367:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

ReaperJr.5967:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

ReaperJr.5967:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

ReaperJr.5967:

Yasha.5963:

So a 20K ranged attack is possible, like the OP said. Do you think all the people who have laid on the hate and derided the OP will apologize?

It’s possible but it’s not broken. As you can see.. to land it requires the eight planets to be aligned.

Of course it’s broken. Of course you can (even rather easily) beat a warrior 1v1 even with Gunflame, because it’s easy to dodge.

That doesn’t change the fact that there shouldn’t be an attack that can instantly oneshot basically every build in the game from 1200 range. Getting one-shot out of the blue in a team fight, while you have 40% damage reduction from enhanced protection and about 2600 armor and 18k Health isn’t balanced no matter how underpowered Warriors are.

I can guarantee you didnt have protection. And you probably had vuln stacked on you. And he had max might stacks from external sources. Wouldnt be possible on a celestial ele otherwise.

The screenshot clearly shows me starting Air Overload, which gives 40% protection. Stop trying to argue. I have facts backing me up you’re just spewing hot air.

It doesn’t show you starting air overload. It just shows your air overload doing damage 4 logs back. That doesn’t mean anything. You could’ve completed air overload and it would still show in combat log.

If you’re so confident that you’re right, why not we bet on this? If you can link a video that shows you reproducing those numbers on an ele with protection boon clearly on, and running celestial, I’ll drop 50g for you. If you can’t, 50g from you goes into my pocket. How about it?

If you can’t reproduce it, that just means one thing. You were lying about having protection, as simple as that.

Either that, or you weren’t celestial.

Yeah that’s not how proof works. I don’t have to proof anything, I posted the screenshot showing clear evidence.

Actually the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim.

Nobody’s under any obligation to disprove a claim just because someone made it. The screenshot of the damage is the object under scrutiny. It can’t be used as evidence as that the damage occurred isnt in question. Rather what’s in question is the circumstances behind how it occurred.

I don’t care one way or the other, but let’s just be clear on how the burden of proof works. :P

If a screenshot isn’t proof enough than none of this forum makes any sense and we might as well close it down because apparently there is no rational discussion here.

A screenshot may be sufficient proof for other cases but it definitely isnt for yours. Like i said, you screenshot doesnt even show that 1. You had protection 2. That you were still channeling overload which meant that you had protection 3. Whether there were unique circumstances leading to the damage

It IS proof. Case closed. All you haters can hate all you want, Anet will nerf this.

Lol, sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring all the facts doesn’t automatically make it true, it makes you delusional.

Oh, hang on, can I play?

You can clearly see I can do over 300,000 damage. This is an obvious problem that needs to be nerfed.

OP seems to have disappeared once all the facts of how this actually works came out.

This thread makes me lol. Before even reading the responses I knew a specific set of circumstances had to align in order for this kind of damage. At minimum, a glass warr built for maximum damage with might, and vulnerability on target OP mentioned that he was fighting a DH. 20 stacks of vulnerability can easily be stacked by a single trap, plus whatever the warrior applies, as well as any other unknown sources.

OP displayed a clear and abject ignorance over basic game mechanics by stating that his stats “don’t matter.”

OP also displayed a laughably weak grasp of basic logic by declaring that “context doesn’t matter.” Context is not only relevant, but far more important than “look a big number.” It’s not difficult to build to get the biggest number you can. The build revolves around that one gimmicky trick that takes most of their build (and very likely other teammates) of setup to make it happen. This in no way makes it OP. It is extremely easy to shutdown, and they’re borderline useless after their one trick. They have no utility and no survivability. So yes, the lack of relevant details and context makes the “omg 20k hit” all but meaningless. An uncropped screen wouldn’t show what debuffs you had or the buffs the warrior had at the time he actually shot you. IE: the very important context. And it’s been shown the only way to possibly get the damage that high requires a significant amount of those buffs and debuffs.

This Dishonor is far too Draconian and unnecessary. GW2 already forces you back into the match, so you already can’t do anything else. The timeout needs to be smarter. Got DC’d from GW2 last night in a match with Guildies – logon servers unavailable for a few minutes. Finally got back in, played for several more minutes, where we won the match… and I get at 16 minute timeout for “abandoning the game.” If I rejoin the game and contribute, it should cancel out the Dishonor. Similarly, if I get DC’d with insufficient time to rejoin before the match ended, it shouldn’t be given out. 60s is fine for me, but I’m on an SSD and even that is cutting it close, presuming I can log back in immediately.

Additionally, I haven’t been hit by it yet, but why are people not accepting the match prompt getting hit with Dishonor? I don’t really see an issue there – I mean, the match prompt is already there as a way to make sure a person is there and if they drop out of it, they drop out of it.

Really it needs to discourage actually abandoning the match, especially early on where it makes the biggest difference. Beyond that, I think it’s doing way more harm to legitimate players trying to play than the intended function. Especially when I see far far far fewer people just up and leaving matches than almost any other online PvP game. It feels like you’re trying to be overly harsh to solve a problem much bigger than what actually exists and ends up doing more harm than good. And with that, we already have fairly long queue times for PvP – all the extra timeouts for people that don’t really need it just decreases the pool of available players even further.

I just got the same…. got lagged out… “Login servers unavailable” for several minutes… was able to finally log back in, rejoined, won the game.. 16 minute timeout for Dishoner. This is counter productive to the entire point of it.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

I have literally seen people run headlong into traps they watched me place, that’s the source of most of the complaints right there.

It’s like when ranger longbow got buffed to actually be usable and people lost their godkitten minds.

Can confirm. Ran into another complaining about DH before I encountered him. He repeatedly ran straight into obvious trap setups, including several where he watched me drop some (I had dropped them as a deterrent, but he decided to just run right into them.) I can’t even count the number of times someone/something else set them off and people still run right into them after they’re already visible.

Exedore.6320:

The problem isn’t traps. It’s that DH can build for heavy damage while having an obscene amount of utility and survivability which doesn’t take much effort to use and has limited counter-play. If trap-spam DH died as fast as it killed people, it wouldn’t be more than an annoying glass cannon.

Have you actually tried playing one? Just for fun I swapped back to a burn guard and absolutely destroyed all the other DHs.

Things which need addressed:

• [Bug] Traps sometimes are invisible once they trigger.
• Wings of Resolve (F2) is an almost 4,000 heal (with 0 healing power) on a 30s cooldown (less with Virtues specialization). It’s almost as good as some heal slot skills. This value needs reduced significantly or the cooldown increased. Remember that Renewed Focus resets it. For reference, the core is 1625 on a 50s CD.
• Spear of Justice (F1) is 1200 range, 0.25s cast and almost instant flight (so not realistically avoidable) and unblockable. That was fine originally, but with the addition of the chain ability, you can use it to pull from 1200 range – usually into a pile of traps. That style of CC with little counter-play is terrible for the game. The general idea of a pull into traps is good.
• Shield of Courage blocks attacks from a very large angle, so it’s very difficult to hit them in melee.
• Pure of Sight grants an unconditional 7% damage bonus inside 600 range. Similar traits only grant a damage bonus conditionally. This was a knee-jerk reaction to the old version of 10% at over 600 yards, which didn’t fit as a minor trait.
• Boons on trap placement were overkill, especially with such long durations. Many didn’t need them.
• Heavy Light is terribly designed, giving DH too much CC against melee. Since it’s a proc, dodging attacks only delays it. It should be tied to a specific ability, something guardians have been saying since BWE1.

• Agreed -an obvious bug that should be fixed.
• Completely ignores that it is no longer instant cast, has an extremely obvious tell, and is easily interrupted.
• Chain can be broken with range – stability, dodging, etc. Pull has a long cool down.
• Yes… and? If it’s just a 1v1 where you can’t get around them, then surely you can kite for 5s? (7s if traited.) Also has elite level cool down time.
• Honestly this feels like a waste of a trait – why didn’t they just buff Longbow damage and do something actually interesting here?
• I’m not sure what’s wrong with this? It was pretty widely agreed this was needed – it’s not like it’s excessive with the boons.
• meh – very close range, 10s cool down, no direct control over using/not using it.

No Pulse.2967:

Please don’t tell me you have 7000 matches on engi or I’ll have to kick a puppy.

Hey, anyone like that who thinks they’re much better than they actually are and don’t think they need to improve, won’t improve, and stay at the same low level. You know, like just strolling through traps without dodging with paper armor and whining about the damage.

Burtnik.5218:

Can i get my cookie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeewXB-zdqc

Yes. This was all I asked for.

Since then I have noticed it myself, now. Not sure what the intended functionality is – for now, I won’t be surprised if it becomes blockable.

nicknamenick.2437:

Lazy brain dead statement? wut? i DID tested it on DH with a warrior.
And it IS unblockable. i just didnt have the tooling to provide a video about it, and if you dont believe me you can Always test it yourself before calling me a liar.

And if you guys dont believe me i will try to make a vid about it if your really dont believe me, stop calling me a liar or a lazy l2p noob or whatever.
What is wrong with this community twisted minds… you really defend a reply like that dude “Suns dusk” wow! gg man! so much! you 2 are lazy! not me

Until you provide proof, I have zero reason to believe you whatsoever. It’s your job to prove your own claims, I’m not doing it for you. I have no reason to believe whatever random things you type into a post box. Just like you claim you’re not lazy, you being too lazy to actually get any kind of proof at all for your claims and trying to make others do it for you says otherwise.

Of course, you also thought that the GS #5 was unblockable. It’s not (the pull after you already got hit and missed the chance to block it, is. Not sure why you think you should be able to lag block something you were already hit with.) It should also be noted that Deflecting shot is a slow moving skill-shot that can be easily avoided without any abilities.

nicknamenick.2437:

Suns Dusk.7201:

Why is insert skill unblockable?

BabyRage

Maby take a look at the skill/tooltip and what it does before you reply with nonsense like this. all you do is protecting your class (thats what most does with these kind of replies like, DH is “OK” L2p! noob..) i get it ofc you dont want any nerfs or whatever, but atleast try to dive into the topic, look up and make sure you know what you talk about before commenting with these braindead replies trying to bent the subject.

Ironic considering when I asked you to actually provide proof that clearly shows it can’t be blocked (which now that I think about it could be a property of it being piercing,) you just repeated “it’s unblockable” with no proof whatsoever. Just typing any thing you want into the post box doesn’t magically make it true. Maybe you should do proper research and get proof for the claim you’re making before diving into a topic just expecting everyone to believe you with a lazy, brain dead statement. Everyone has literally zero reason to believe you at this point.

Was this intentionally lacking in detail and just outright wrong? I’ve never noticed deflecting shot to be unblockable. You’ll have to provide more detail or definitively show that it can’t be blocked. (Which I do agree should be blockable.)

GS pull has always been blockable. If you were already tagged with it, you missed your block. Stability or breaking tether range are counters for it at that point. IE: pay attention.

Nike.2631:

Should have showed up as a chest when you bought the first unlock. if it didn’t go to the PvP lobby there is an NPC there that may fix it for you.

This was it, thanks.

What unique longbow skin is supposed to be unlocked after training the Elite specialization? I was looking through my longbow skins and I don’t see anything new.

I don’t know what your problem is – with the first build I made for it (with only half the specialization unlocked) I’m soloing vets in the jungle…

Just in general, the AAs on all guardian weapons are boring. Most other classes have a variety of additional effects that aren’t just “hit for some damage.” Hammer creates a symbol… after a really long windup at the end of the chain.. which are immobile and not something even applied directly to the target.

Definitely feel like the Sword AA could do with a QoL update (and not fire projectiles on the third hit.)

choovanski.5462:

IsilZha.3608:

robertul.3679:

glaphen.5230:

abc.5790:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Try moving out of range when you’re immobilized/knocked down? Sure, that’s always worked wonderfully. 8k Whirling Wrath is easy to land if you want to.

That said, if you’re bringing downed health into it (which death logs usually do), then it is immensely misleading, since when you’re downed, you have no active defense, nor cleanse.

That said, death logs, especially with conditions, are terribly unhelpful for figuring out what really killed you. If you take hits doing the following:
6k direct, 1k burn
4k direct, 1.5k burn
4.5k direct, 900 burn
3k direct, 1k burn
6.5k direct
5k direct, 1k burn
2k direct, 1.3k burn
7k direct, 500 burn

Burning will be shown at the top of the list with 7.2k damage. So that was the deadly part, right? Well, no, since the 36k direct damage was definitely a much larger contributor. But since no individual skill on the direct damage beat out the total of burning, burning is shown as the highest damage.

I like how you get it.

That’s why I don’t trust death logs. It combines the condition damage received and posts them in its generic form, instead of listing the source of condition from skill used

i.e. 2300 zealots flame, 930 purging flames, 4300 ring of fire, 3100 drakes breath 900 burning speed, 600 fan of fire etc, It will add all those up and list it as 12130 Burning.

Then someone will qq on the forum and say nerf burning even though the damage came for 3 classes through 6 skills.

Yeah those 3k burning ticks from 1 person must be my imagination.

It actually gets over 6k. From a single guard. In less than 3-5secs.

Stop walking back and forth over the purging flames border… just the other day I had a warrior get up to 17 stacks on himself almost entirely from stupidly running back and forth over it while trying to attack me.

i had a great moment with a burn guard on foefire mid. i was on my warrior & the burn guard threw down his PF. i just backed away from it facing him, & he just stood there trying to combo the field unsuccessfully with sceptre. after the duration finished he looked pretty sad. 100% waste of a cd if no one walks into it.

Did… did he not realize he can cast it directly on top of you to apply at least one hit for 3 stacks? O.o

robertul.3679:

glaphen.5230:

abc.5790:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Try moving out of range when you’re immobilized/knocked down? Sure, that’s always worked wonderfully. 8k Whirling Wrath is easy to land if you want to.

That said, if you’re bringing downed health into it (which death logs usually do), then it is immensely misleading, since when you’re downed, you have no active defense, nor cleanse.

That said, death logs, especially with conditions, are terribly unhelpful for figuring out what really killed you. If you take hits doing the following:
6k direct, 1k burn
4k direct, 1.5k burn
4.5k direct, 900 burn
3k direct, 1k burn
6.5k direct
5k direct, 1k burn
2k direct, 1.3k burn
7k direct, 500 burn

Burning will be shown at the top of the list with 7.2k damage. So that was the deadly part, right? Well, no, since the 36k direct damage was definitely a much larger contributor. But since no individual skill on the direct damage beat out the total of burning, burning is shown as the highest damage.

I like how you get it.

That’s why I don’t trust death logs. It combines the condition damage received and posts them in its generic form, instead of listing the source of condition from skill used

i.e. 2300 zealots flame, 930 purging flames, 4300 ring of fire, 3100 drakes breath 900 burning speed, 600 fan of fire etc, It will add all those up and list it as 12130 Burning.

Then someone will qq on the forum and say nerf burning even though the damage came for 3 classes through 6 skills.

Yeah those 3k burning ticks from 1 person must be my imagination.

It actually gets over 6k. From a single guard. In less than 3-5secs.

Stop walking back and forth over the purging flames border… just the other day I had a warrior get up to 17 stacks on himself almost entirely from stupidly running back and forth over it while trying to attack me.

Kuya.6495:

Burn builds are definitely good for killing scrubs.

The best is laying down purging flames and watching your opponent run back and forth over it 5 times, then complain that burn guardian is broken after they put 15 stacks of burning on themselves.

Haven’t posted mine in a long time. Got to a look I am super happy with.

komokoro.7542:

As a player playing in FA i should say this tourney is so badly broken. At least for gold league.

Its just so mathematically impossible to play with TC this week.

Its like the other two servers are mere punching bag to entertain TC while they wait to go back to t1 match next week.

Pfft, that’s not tru… http://i.imgur.com/wGtT0Fnl.jpg oh.

Sure is a lot of whining going on about it… it bursts better, but it’s also easier to avoid more of the damage. The maximum damage output hasn’t changed.
http://i.imgur.com/lpw13ej.png

tanztante.6532:

Pinkcomet.2975:

49X vs 500 is my fev. no matter which side I’m on.

except, I’m on 49x team and notice that 1 dude on my team cant carry himself.
while others have 100-150 personal score. he only have 35.

No need to blame him. its already obvious. XD

if you decap and contest a point for the rest of the game, preferrably against multiple opponents, you often have 10 points and you played a crucial part

This. Personal score is pretty useless. You get more personal score for uselessly killing someone off point, 3x more, than fighting over a neutral point, and you get piddly points for defense (mostly because it barely ever even triggers.) It also rewards teammates uselessly running to a point a teammate is already on and not contested, just to scorekitten for being totally worthless. A player with a powerful burst build can repeatedly spawn kill a weak player and end up with a high personal score, while never doing anything to help with the objective whatsoever.

As for point defense, if you want a higher personal score, it’s more worth it to intentionally flee to allow them to capture the point, fight and kill them off-point, then go and get de-cap and cap points. This is of course a horrible “strategy” that actively makes your team lose. Not that I can recall seeing someone do this, but it’s more to illustrate that you can get a high personal score for doing things are detrimental to your team’s victory. While as with your example, you can be a huge asset to your team’s victory and have a very low personal score.

It’s an atrociously lousy scoring system.

As to the thread topic. Definitely close games. I do kind of kick myself for losing by just a few points, but overall, even games are by far the best games to play – it’s a hell of a lot more fun.

manveruppd.7601:

Oh and to the guy who downed 2 players 1v3: I’d say the downed state system worked exactly as intended there. The game would’ve been very unbalanced if it allowed a single player, however good, to carry a team in which your other 4 teammates were so useless that they couldn’t send 1 more person to help you while you were 1v3!

…

You just described the polar opposite of balance and called it balance. The rest of my team being bad is one thing, but the downed state artificially caps how effective I can skillfully play against multiple opponents. On the other end, it actively rewards bad players to zerg on one target for a pretty much guaranteed win no matter how bad they are. That’s not balance. That’s the game forcing a win or lose based on numbers. Balance is giving each player the same potential. If I have multiple opponents the same skill level as me, then I should certainly lose a 2v1, and have no chance in a 3v1.

With the downed state, multiple opponents throws balance out the window. Even if I can beat them, they’re in a state that requires me to be a sitting duck to finish them off even if their teammates don’t immediately start reviving them. That has nothing to do with skill. Why can’t I be allowed to carry a team like that? "Skill matters.. but only so much then you’re cut off at the knees – you can’t be too good, that’s “unbalanced!”"

Ristillath.6745:

SkiTz.4590:

Agreed, but I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see downed state removed from PvP…. there is absolutely no reason such a system should be in a competitive game….

I beat you, fair and square in a 1v1 and downed you, thats it, I won the duel.
Now in this game, some kid gap closing on me while I was stomping and stuns me because I used my stability during the actual duel with the guy I just downed… Now I’m freaking dead… That’s utter nonsense and totally a reason as to why a lot of MMORPG PvPers stay away from GW2 PvP…. get rid of downed state and I have a feeling there would be a huge surge of Pvp players…

Imo downed state is one of the things that makes GW2 pvp interesting.
It opens the fights for a lot of nice plays and turn arounds in the actual teamfight.

My problem with it in PvP is that it makes even a straight up 2v1 extremely lopsided in a way that has almost nothing to do with actual skill. Between the speed of rezzing and the delaying abilities in downed state, if you don’t drop both opponents at the same time, the downed one can be trivially rezzed before you could stomp them. Now they’re back to half HP and its a 2v1 again even though you rightfully outplayed both of them at least enough that you dropped one.

Heck I’ve had 3v1s where I’ve managed to drop two of them. In the end, even though I massively outplayed them, I have almost no chance to actually win that 3v1 all thanks to downed state.

Your Game My Rules.5324:

IsilZha.3608:

Your Game My Rules.5324:

GW1 is still more active in pvp (all gamemodes included) than GW2 is.

You lost me when you started lying to exaggerate your point. Cause you know, this is ludicrously easy to verify. When I logged into GW1 last week fit nostalgia’s sake, I went to go do the pvp I liked there and was disappointed. The temple of Balthazar, which back before gw2 would have a dozen or more full districts, had one, rather empty district. HoM is far more active. But, then I went to check fort aspenwood and jade quarry. Both were totally and completely empty. Not a single person on either end.

My bad, as Empa said it few posts after yours, i meant competitive PvP.
I also played some RA matches today. I somehow had more 4v4 than i had 5v5 in soloQ for the past year

Fair enough. Given GW2 only has SoloQ and TeamQ. Don’t get me wrong, I definitely want to see more PvP game modes for GW2 – having several options would be nice, and it’s long overdue.

I’d also like it a lot better if we got an Alliance Battles proper instead of just conquest. I like conquest fine, but would like to see some new things, and it’s no AB either – bigger teams, bigger maps, and actually counting how many people were on point, as well as NPC guards (which we all know were easy to beat, but provided a delay of being taken.)

While I never got into it, I’m baffled while there’s no Guild vs Guild in Guild Wars.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

IsilZha.3608:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

IsilZha.3608:

Your Game My Rules.5324:

GW1 is still more active in pvp (all gamemodes included) than GW2 is.

You lost me when you started lying to exaggerate your point. Cause you know, this is ludicrously easy to verify. When I logged into GW1 last week fit nostalgia’s sake, I went to go do the pvp I liked there and was disappointed. The temple of Balthazar, which back before gw2 would have a dozen or more full districts, had one, rather empty district. HoM is far more active. But, then I went to check fort aspenwood and jade quarry. Both were totally and completely empty. Not a single person on either end.

He talks about the competition I guess, which is in GW1 (mostly GvG), still bigger than in GW2 nowadays. Hotjoin and soloQ can’t be taken seriously anyways.

I would’ve thought this if he didn’t explicitly spell out “all gamemodes included.”

yeah, I’ll get your point.
GW1 just felt more populated, due to the fact that for nearly everything a premade team was required. In GW1 you found teams fast, in GW2 there are none existing. Tunnel vision incoming

On the subject matter, I really would like to see more game modes. I’d definitely like to see something like Aspenwood or Jade Quarry – both provided some unique PvP experiences which I found to be quite fun.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

IsilZha.3608:

Your Game My Rules.5324:

GW1 is still more active in pvp (all gamemodes included) than GW2 is.

You lost me when you started lying to exaggerate your point. Cause you know, this is ludicrously easy to verify. When I logged into GW1 last week fit nostalgia’s sake, I went to go do the pvp I liked there and was disappointed. The temple of Balthazar, which back before gw2 would have a dozen or more full districts, had one, rather empty district. HoM is far more active. But, then I went to check fort aspenwood and jade quarry. Both were totally and completely empty. Not a single person on either end.

He talks about the competition I guess, which is in GW1 (mostly GvG), still bigger than in GW2 nowadays. Hotjoin and soloQ can’t be taken seriously anyways.

I would’ve thought this if he didn’t explicitly spell out “all gamemodes included.”

Your Game My Rules.5324:

GW1 is still more active in pvp (all gamemodes included) than GW2 is.

You lost me when you started lying to exaggerate your point. Cause you know, this is ludicrously easy to verify. When I logged into GW1 last week fit nostalgia’s sake, I went to go do the pvp I liked there and was disappointed. The temple of Balthazar, which back before gw2 would have a dozen or more full districts, had one, rather empty district. HoM is far more active. But, then I went to check fort aspenwood and jade quarry. Both were totally and completely empty. Not a single person on either end.

XacTactX.6709:

Basically there are two types of people in this thread.

1. People talking about their personal experience with thieves or what they’ve seen.
2. People talking about the thief meta and their role as a dps roamer.

You are supposed to discuss thieves in the context of #2 and not #1. Watching top 100 thieves like Sizer and Caed will tell you more about thieves.

I’d just like to note that my comment and video was a joke – I know full well that was just a really bad thief.

DaveGan.8065:

I’ve addressed similar proposals by other people, so forgive me for not addressing yours directly. You are making a kneejerk proposal to combat the problem above the soil, rather than destroy the roots. Your proposal does not address the huge incentive players have to stack and spectate/autobalance in the first place.

Remove team swapping and I and many others will simply spectate until there is a clear favorite. After all I only need to play about 3 minutes of the match on the winning side to get equivalent rewards as if I had lost. The potential loss for not joining earlier is less than the potential loss for playing on the losing side.

It’s a simple initial solution – simpler the better. But anyway, you’re also totally assuming that the teams won’t just fill up. Also many of these players tend to want to play, not help with the objective at all, and then swap (if need be) later rather than just sit around the entire match. I’m not even sure if the “playing 3 minutes on the winning team” is correct or not.

Although all this really says is “I’m going to be a kitten and continue to make hotjoin terrible because I can,” with no more self-justifcation than “exploit or be exploited! rarrrr!”

To address your statement about prisoner’s dilemma, excessive stacking does have a downside: matches taking longer to start up, and the server quickly imploding on itself as nobody will want to join the other team. This forcefully breaks up the stacking and the parties must spend time to find another room. In other words, mutually assured destruction. Far more prominent in the prisoner’s dilemma than your “middle ground” point, by the way, is that 1.) exploiting always comes ahead of not exploiting, and 2.) people will exploit or get exploited.

This… this isn’t a prisoner’s dilemma at all, which involves two opposing sides cooperating for mutual gain and minimal risk. What mutual gain do the non-exploiters get for being exploitative? Oh that’s right, just as you described, the server that collapses because the only players around are the exploiters, and the non-exploiters get nothing out of it.

Did you.. just find a bunch of smart sounding terms and start throwing them around to try to “scare” people away by trying to sound smart? I’m starting to think so since you’re using them all wrong, and…

As far as the false dichotomy, it probably came to mind when you mentioned turning the board around in chess on a friend.

…this isn’t a false dichotomy. It’s a yes or no question. I guess your answer here is no, but on to your new question…

Playing vs a stranger, I am playing to win, so I would have absolutely zero problem switching the board at the last legal moment if it was not restricted by the rules, because that opponent would easily turn the board on me in the same circumstance. Playing with a friend, mutual trust ensures we would not do this to each other, and no longer serves as a valid analogy.

uh-huh – going to really push the ITG image in order to maintain your position I see. What do you think that’ll get you playing that way? How long will that last until you get punched in the face and/or no one will ever want to play with you because you don’t “play to win” – you play to fabricate false, empty victories. Who would see that as a win besides your own delusional self? lol I’m pretty sure Chess rules don’t specify this – but no one will ever want to play with you. Heck, since this kind of play isn’t specified in the rules, I bet people are playing “exploit or be exploited!” everywhere like this, right? It shouldn’t be hard to actually prove that this happens.

Go ahead, I’ll wait.

Apolo.5942:

Some how, you apparently think that regardless of the soulless void that is PVP in a game that is a successor to a pvp focused game, this kind of pvp design/balancing is something desirable or even that people want. Despite pvp being dead 4 months into the release of the game.

You want to try that again with shoving words into my mouth? Or is lying and being outright dishonest about what I said or implied the only response you have?

No, Guardian HP is just fine given their massive amounts of sustain, boons, and support. Just because you lack the ability to use them properly doesn’t make Guardian’s squishy.

Apolo.5942:

a t s e.9614:

Give aegis/blind/blocks/invul to other classes .

They dont need them, they already are tougher than guardians.

Man what game are you playing? It’s not GW2…