Guild Wars 2

I see all these people from T2 and lower trying to encourage the lower map cap idea.

Doing this will destroy competitive WvW and turn every map into karma trains.

You guys are complaining you are VASTLY outnumbered by Tier 1. I’d hazard to say that Tier 1 has probably 80% of the weekly WvW logins of the NA servers, if not more.

You are all advocating something that helps the MINORITY (something that you are admitting to being) while destroying the majority of WvW players experiences.

There is also this idea of server pride being dead. The guilds that have held down, organized and build their servers are the ones with server pride. The current tier 1 servers are the last standing servers of over two years of fighting.

BG, JQ, TC, SOR, SOS, MAG, FA, SBI, IOJ, Kaineg, DB, HOD all have flirted with tier 1 and been in tier 2 at one point. You think that the people left on BG/JQ/TC aren’t immensely proud of the fact theirs have survived when so many others have fallen due to lack of leadership, poor leadership or just general game turn over?

These higher populated servers are responsible for keeping WvW going for many many players through the drought of so little feedback from ANET, and as a reward you are advocating destroying their WvW experience.

These servers are successful because they have established an environment attractive to WvW guilds, be they PPT, GVG, havok roaming or any mix.

So what is a good solution that doesn’t punish servers that have been successful at retaining and growing their WvW population?

Several steps:

Step 1:

Merge the bottom 9 servers with the next 9 as ranked by glicko WvW rating. Do it in reverse, so Eradon Terrace gets merged with Yaks bend (and so forth). And merge the server names as well to keep the pride in where everyone came from. Server names would be:

Yak’s Terrace, Dragon Rock, Crystal Crossing, Stormbluff Furnace, Devona’s Kaineng, Isle of Emery, Northern Rall, Henge of Darkhaven, and Borlis Madness. (examples)

Step 2: Open up free transfers to the new 9 bottom servers. Half or reduce by 75% transfer costs to tier 2 servers (SOS, MAG and FA). Lock or keep BG JQ TC server transfers the same price. You could also just have free transfers if your account has reached a certain number of WvW ranks. Say 1,000. That way PvEers aren’t targeted for moving, but WvW players. (Otherwise large PvE guilds on Tier 1 servers would move, freeing up more room on them for WvW guilds).

Step 3: All guild influence and upgrades get moved. (This may have been addressed in last patch, but I’m not super familiar with it) In short make it truly no cost to move servers in regards to your guild.

Step 4: Separate WvW population from server population and make competing in a lower WvW populated server MORE rewarding than higher. Higher magic find, % inc to gold per kill buff, double chests, something.

Step 5: Provide an incentive to move to the bottom nine servers from the top 3. 400 gems one time, 1k gold, an exclusive Team Player badge or something. There would have to be a way to differentiate between a PvE player and a WvWer.

Step 6: Bring back the much higher glicko random number generator that caused matchups to be more varied. Part of why everyone got so stacked is because they wanted to fight different opponents, make it so they have that option, without having to transfer.

Step 7: Reset glicko! This is the most important. It will create an environment that will encourage guilds to go out and seek a new server to bring to the top of the ranking, rather than maintain their hard won rating.

I would also suggest doing the same to EU servers, perhaps the bottom six with the next six.

Then take the money you’ve saved with servers and hire a few WvW GMs that can monitor cheating, hacking and take disciplinary action against them.

You do these things, even most of these things, and WvW will become a fun place to compete in again for all servers.

I do agree with Cake.

There are about five people causing/have caused major problems in the past. The WvW community know who these people are, we have video evidence of it.

Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to get in there, and ban them from WvW for 30 days or something then put a ton of code time into the works that will probably be buggy and hurt the people not doing anything wrong?

storiessave.3807:

The exhaustion idea might have merit if it was able to be reduced with a large amount of players in your squad as a commander…but this would seriously hinder havoc groups. I just don’t see it as something that can be balanced for differently sized groups or populations.

Yes, more than one person with a commander could carry siege and they could alternate placing it…but when you have 3-5 people, how much siege could you place before being completely blocked? It’s just not feasible. You’d wreck havocking.

One thing that might be a big help is capping the number of supply a single person can take from a specific structure in a certain amount of time. Generally, you aren’t limited to only one supply source, unless there’s a troll draining every camp, tower, and keep. If they were only allowed to take a certain number in an hour, it would slow their drainage of keep supply by a lot.

Maybe make it scale off the current max supply of the structure or something. This should not be a map-wide limit, or it will hinder small groups trying to siege up keeps – keep it specific to each tower, keep, or camp.

I also really like the idea of adding siege names in the interact UI – seeing “Build Flame Ram” would make it so much easier to avoid “Build Ballista.” And maybe making the interact menu prioritize superior siege, as someone suggested, would help a tad bit as well. Might not deter trolls all that much, but at least they’d have to spend more money for their trolling. Right now it’s very easy for them to spam the cheap as hell normal ballista build sites on actual siege.

I don’t agree with it limiting havok groups. You said:

" Yes, more than one person with a commander could carry siege and they could alternate placing it…but when you have 3-5 people, how much siege could you place before being completely blocked? It’s just not feasible. You’d wreck havocking. "

They wouldn’t wreck havok groups, because in your example of 3-5 people you guys can only carry at most 60 to 100 supply. How many pieces of siege are you building now with 3-5 people? The cheapest piece of supply is a guild catapult, if you each threw one and each had 20 supply you’d have enough.

It doesn’t wreck havok at all.

I admit I haven’t read every response to this thread, however:

I think the exhaustion idea is an ok start, but the largest problem with it is commanders that throw down four or five rams, or 10 golums, or arrow carts for defense.

I am a regular commander for a server in Tier 1. Currently in my inventory I have 400+ superior rams, 400+ superior ACs, 250 alpha golums, 100+ omega golums, 100+ guild catapults and 250 stack of every other type of siege including super trebs and regular siege. I have this because as a commander I’m responsible for throwing down the siege based on the strategies required of the map.

My solution:

Implement exhaustion as stated by the first post, however add to it an exception for tagged up commanders with a certain number of players joined to their squad. I would suggest no less than 10, no more than 20.

This would mean that any organized group, that are trusting their commander to throw the correct siege would also trust him enough to join his squad and allow him to throw unlimited siege. Sure any troll can buy a tag, but can they get 10 or 15 people to join their squad and be complicit in trolling their server? I think that is much less likely.

Sure it is a pain in the butt for commanders, we would have to make sure everyone joins squad, but it will build to a habit soon enough, and if it is kept at 10 to enable unlimited siege, I think that is a small price to pay to limit trolling.

Blackgate poster here.

Mag has some good fighting forces. In fact, from my perspective they are tougher to beat than most of Tier 1 guilds in their own way.

Thanks for looking for a Tier 2 server, not that Blackgate wouldn’t be a good fit, but it is always good to see movement from Tier 1 to Tier 2.

Lich King.1524:

bewhatever.2390:

Note to the programmers: as a 35 year veteran of the tech industry who used to write and debug low level code in real time systems, and who as a customer/user tried to chase a similar problem in DAoC a decade ago (before the rules that customers couldn’t look at things like this), it appears to me that this issue is happening client side, because the client is prioritizing something (I would guess loading and unloading spell effect objects) (or possibly loading and unloading textures related to spell effects from the graphics card’s texture cache) ahead of simply draining the queue of location updates coming from the server. While this could be TCP packet drops happening near the server (ie some sort of policing by the router to the internet where the servers are hosted) I think it’s happening client side.

Can we please get some client side counters/instrumentation of events such as fetches of textures from disk, loads of textures to the graphics card, loads and unloads of objects to the client engine, per second? This would go a long ways toward tuning.

If there is a low level action in the client engine which is spin waiting while it goes to disk to get textures to load, that would explain the drastic performance improvement I saw going to solid state disk…and means that the game should perhaps load the entire library of particle effect and player armor textures to memory, so this low level action doesn’t ever block the main client thread waiting on disk

In the case of DAoC a decade ago, my conclusion was that each time a spell was cast, the game called a heavy weight call in the client engine to instantiate the spell effect as a separate object, executed the spell effect, and then called a heavy weight call to remove the spell effect object. This is in my opinion an architectural blunder, because it results in O(n^2) heavy weight calls to instantiate spell effects…on every client. Even if GW2’s limit of 5 affected players or mobs, not counting boss-casted spell effects which land on everyone, makes this O(n), it’s O(n) with a very large coefficient. Sorry for use of programmer jargon.

I think this assumption is not correct, because if i was alone and far away from SM, (for example in QL) I did no see any battle / or particle effects and still has huge skill lag if somebody fight in SM. Client should not use any calls in this case.
IMHO this is a problem on server-side. Because 20-40 sec is not s TCP-level delay. Simply too much SQL-requests or CPU-calculation at same time. Because if no battle = no lag. And If battle starts somewhere, then skill-lag starts too everywhere.
Also unfortunately it can means that this problem is impossible to fix easily, need to rework a huge part of the engine, may be change game mechanics too. I hope I’am wrong.

I hope I’m not off topic here:

There is something my guild and I have linked. We used to experience the most skill lag when fighting guilds with heavy necro’s. Old school War Machine was some of the first laggers because they were some of the first heavy necro well users.

These days, there is something my guild does (other guilds do it too) that I don’t really want to say that causes skill lag even in smaller fights. Suffice it to say, that using this thing causes tons and tons of conditions. (If someone cares I’ll respond to a PM).

I think somehow that the larger amount of conditions and perhaps the ticking nature of wells should also be suspect.

I am on Blackgate

I experience two separate problems related to skill lag.

The first is when very large groups are fighting, usually over a keep. The skills are delayed and most times never even fire. After the fight ends, the server seems to “catch up” and all our skills fire super fast.

The second issue is a bug. It locks down all skills from firing. There are several ways to fix it, the easiest is to take out a piece of siege, then put it back in your inventory. I think any fix that resets your CDs or changes your skills will work. Dying also works. I/we think it has to do with being interrupted while you pick up either a banner or an ele weapon during the middle of a fight.

I have also found that if I do the siege trick while having normal skill lag, it tends to help. Its as if my skills are all bottlenecked up, and taking out siege and putting it back refreshes the bottle neck and I can use skills again.

I know that it may be hard for lower population servers to realize right away, but just because a server has a high population does not mean that population participates in any way in WvW. And if they do participate, they are casuals at best.

For the last three months, Blackgate has only queued all four maps on reset, and that is only because our EU guilds stay up in NA to participate in reset for the first three to four hours. When they end their special raid, we lose queues on all maps for the rest of the week.

Otherwise only EBG has a short queue during NA timezone, much less EU Oceanic and SEA.

Please do not confuse a nice populated server that PvEs for good WvW coverage, because they are not equal.

What they don’t understand, is our fighting here makes them $$$.

Server transfers, rivalries, calling out another server, and community effort gets galvanized from these forums.

Have we decided where we are moving?

If you are going to encourage all guilds of a server to run tagless, don’t complain about having lousy coverage in 2-3 months. Without tags, new players can’t learn whats going on, and you will eventually kill your server without fresh blood to counter the attrition.

JQ has had the most numerous pugs since this game has started, and I think its a major reason they stay in Tier 1 regardless of what guilds come and go. More recently BG has upped the pug numbers since the Teq kill and I think that also shows.

Following that tag is the first thing you learn how to do when you join WvW the first time (they are trained to do it in PvE). Then skill and TS and builds and scouting and manning siege come later. Seems to me guilds sacrifice the long term health of the game for short term “the fights are better”.

But the nice thing about WvW, is we can play it any way we want to.

So you are saying you would rather not know this is happening? Apparently, even without calling out individuals or guilds (even though thats what the message says) posts will still get removed.

I didn’t call out the guild or player on purpose, but that thing was up for a long long time, and the only way to deal with it was rush the legendary defenders. The server in general was benefiting from it for over an hour.

If your irritated about being lumped in with a griefer, think how we feel.

Hell, mostly it was posted as a joke, I didn’t think everyone would freak out so much.

At least now a few more people know about it.

Interesting, I have no idea why that got closed. I thought we were behaving rather well.

Nice fights in SORBL just now.

Think of all those bags you didn’t get of each others. I’d be sad if I was in your zerg.

We got plenty though

Kaga.7629:

Because every fight against Blackgate/JQ/SoR is essentially a 5to1 fight ( and that’s in good conditions) and also because they PvD everything while people are working ( FACT : 100 man just pushed into our garri to retake it against….. 12 ish roamer. At noon eastern on a monday. repeat every day), that means we start from a “paper position” every day.

Pffff Blackgate. Anyone can feel invincible in pvt with +4man dps helping against whatever. It’s not like there’s any effort or skill required. Just cruise control to victory.

The maguuma way involves becoming tougher and harder to survive against more and more ridiculous odds. No cruise control here. The reason our roamers are strong is that they get it done ALONE. That’s why we got that swag.

In fact, i’m quite confident in saying that most BG players wouldn’t be able to handle Maguuma-style difficulty. Because they are not tough enough.

What if I have 2100 toughness? Would that make me tough enough?

Alukah.2063:

Zephyrus.9680:

Eh there’s 3 exits to the spawn. oPP is one of the few guilds I respect on BG. Almost all individually skilled players that I’ve seen and they never back down from a 1v1. They’re also like 2/3s of BG’s fight club presence.

There could be a million exits, spawn camping should be frowned upon, not applauded.

Gully.7358:

I’m fine with you calling us trash, we’ve been called far worse but if you act like trash yourself then you get treated like trash. Just saying

But that’s exactly how you guys are acting.

I’m still trying to figure out how it is spawn camping if they are not keeping you from leaving spawn.

Alukah.2063:

As a lurker, reading so much about oPP here made me think it was as “good” guild, until I met them today spawn camping. Say what you want, but spawn camping has to be one of the lowest things people would do “just to have fun”.

TL;DR: trash guild is trash.

If only there were multiple ways out of your spawn…

It was started by a JQ.

Just saying.

I think he thinks that if JQ doesn’t help BG do CoF, then we won’t be able to afford more guilds?

Building and fighting with that many golums was fun and I’m glad both sides had a blast.

In fact, someone said in TS after we wiped, “Hey, JQ’s gonna be AFK, they are all changing their pants!”

LOL I think the magic number is closer to 20, 57 left us with no one to actually kill the keep lord or kill ACs ha ha.

Keep your eyes peeled week 7. Revenge of the Golum horde may strike again!

gebrechen.5643:

After that kittening forum software ate my reply. You get the short version.

@Zikory
It was your server that was afraid of losing the league because of the schedule

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/JQ-3-easy-weeks-in-schedule-SOR-1-and-BG-1/first

and initiating a 2v1 vs. JQ. (21 BG replies on page 1 vs. 13 from other servers) The same guys that claim we didn’t show up from monday on.

So basically many of your server were not believing you could win a week against us or played the whine card pretty good. Even if we had come 1st place in week 1 the score between us could have looked like this:
.

I started that post, so let me comment on it.

Read the thread again, its not about whether or not I thought BG would win, it was about a level playing field for everyone, including JQ. I posted that within an hour of the schedule being released, and had hoped that it would be changed immediately for all three of us (JQ SOR BG) into my suggested schedule.

If JQ HAD won, it would be said you guys didn’t deserve it. It is just as unfair for JQ as it was for BG/SOR.

Things turned out differently than everyone thought for sure, but that doesn’t mean the schedule wasn’t set up very very poorly to start, regardless of the outcome.

I thought Merc left because they weren’t getting support of BG’s NA?

Now your saying we do overtime? Crazy.

No, the problem is EVERYONE underestimated what BG was capable of, including BG. Go ahead and blame ZDs if it makes you feel better, but we all know deep down they alone don’t make up for the score differences.

I think someone bet on the wrong horse.

gebrechen.5643:

Gilgamesh.7364:

jojojoon.8607:

Gilgamesh.7364:

Great fights everyone, this is the most even match I’ve seen in a while

Except in EU time zone when pvd happens..

EU timezone wasn’t a problem when JQ took the lead… Now it seems to be the main problem :/

Sure it is. But I know it is hard to look on a world map and watch for timezones.
JQ SEA has 7-8 hours until EU comes online (doable with much dedication on a weekend. I log in on EU (central) prime time at 8pm which is 2-3am for our SEA.
JQ NA starts at 1am for me.
BG SEA has 4-5 hours until ZDs comes online, they are 3-4 hours before EU prime and BG EU has two or three times our numbers.
So yes, it’s a huge problem if you need to stay up until 2am every day and get up at 5 or 6.
There are guys on JQ that pull these numbers but they don’t have to, I’m happy when they do, but we can’t compete with BG at this numbers game. We could if our EU force would have at least equal numbers OR if SoR is keeping your EU busy, what SoS can’t do.
So the problem here is that you have better 24 hour coverage and we have SoS in the matchup.
SoS can’t hold their one bl over the day. They fight very good in the timezones they have people online, but at the rest of the day their bl means points for BG because JQ doesn’t have the forces to get there too without losing a garrison on JQ or hills on BG bl.

Yesterday was a good example for that.
BG attacked JQ bl garrison with huge numbers (ZDs+BG zerg) and BG bl hills was attacked by the map zerg (ND and other guilds)
We were able to hold hills for over an hour against golem rushes, had no supply, because we couldn’t split our 30 man force without losing hills against your 50+ (while you had at least 2 havocs going).
JQ bl kept garrison until our SEA commander had to log off (2am for him) and our commander on BG hills had to leave and took some people with them. JQ bl had no queue at this time.
We lost hills in the end with having 12 people on the new commander and 6 people on siege against your map blob.
So yes, it’s a pure numbers game and we are still lacking numbers in at least one timeslot

This is not true, JQBL garrison was not hit by ZDs, it was hours before they logged in. It was hit by me, some NA guilds and NOC.

Maelwaedd.5842:

That 1 hour sustained push into JQBL garri which enabled our forces to flip 2 T3 keeps on other maps

Where we hit garri with 20 golems got the lord down a number of times and you needed to call help to the map, enabling JQ’s BGBL wp to be flipped

Where we got pushed out then came back again with 10 golems at a different gate back into lords room, setup siege on the roof and still got pushed out again it was great defense on JQ behalf preventing us from capping garrison

Then 10 more golems back at SE gate and back into inner, all the while draining your supply and man power from other maps, which enabled the JQ wp on SoS BL to be flipped
Then the last 5 golems just because we could

it was a co-ordinated effort over all 4 maps planned for a number of hours and executed very well and with great timing (dont send your zerg into ruins to cap bloodlust :P ) and it put your SEA forces at a disadvantage all night while our SEA had a great platform to build from, the only way it could have gone better for us is if we managed to cap garri but draining all supply and putting holes though out it was good enough, after that we just had small groups yak slapping and flipping camps so that your garri couldn’t fully recover

I’m very lucky I got to command that push into JQBL Garrison last night. It was great fun and I love how hard people pushed.

The fact is, we didn’t have a queue on JQBL when we were inside Garrison for an hour. Neither did SOSBL. We wiped two out of three of JQs waypoints because we coordinated cleanly with all map’s commanders. One waypoint would have been good, two waypoints set the tone for the next 12 hours.

Last night was the turning point for this match, and therefore for league. It didn’t happen during EU, it didn’t happen during NA. It happened during Oceanic and early SEA about 4 hours before ZDs raid starts.

You can blame them all you want, but the fact is, without those waypoints, JQ was fighting at a disadvantage to our T3 keeps until they build them up again, and they have yet to do so. Turning keeps to paper effects the next 6-10 hours of PPT, anyone who WvWs knows this.

Don’t blame it on your poor EU turnout, or JQs NA guilds giving up, its not their fault. The damage was done during Oceanic, without ZDs.

zoombi.1498:

JaredKincade.9761:

Just because a map is queued does not mean that it is WvW players in the map. BG has a very very high PVE population. Those people are only in it for achievements. I’d say JQ has the 2nd highest PVE population, TC and SOR are 3rd and 4th in some order.

Source for these rankings? 66% of statistics are fabricated.

That is why I said “I’d say…” instead of quoting statistics, because there are none. Just observational data.

Jeydra,

You’ve admitted to the point several have been trying to make in that last post.

Just because a map is queued does not mean that it is WvW players in the map. BG has a very very high PVE population. Those people are only in it for achievements. I’d say JQ has the 2nd highest PVE population, TC and SOR are 3rd and 4th in some order.

This is why weekend effectiveness for BG is usually lower, because our PvEers come out to play more, and more of our WvWers are stuck in queue for longer. In fact, many of our WvW guilds don’t even try to log in during the weekend.

SoR can field larger zergs than BG because we have a higher PvE population, not because we’re playing badly.

Over time we turn those PvErs (some of them) into WvWers so I think its very healthy for BG and WvW in general to have those PvE players in the map, though in the short term it can be frustrating when I tag up.

I’ve said it before in regards to SOR, I won’t repeat myself, but towards JQ I can say this.

I think its a testament to JQ being the longest running Tier 1 server in GW2. They’ve found a good balance between having fun and going for the win. They include their very high PvE population and taught them how to WvW for long term stability to their server.

scootshoot.6583:

Serkz.3140:

With all due respect, when the season started we were definitely the least stacked and lowest ranked tier 1.

And even around 2am server time this morning, there were no Qs on SoS and JQ BLs. That’s why week 1 is the most memorable foe me because it showed BGs commitment and dedication to wvw despite having the least favorable odds. For many of us, it’s not the prize that we cherish but rather the journey.

My servermate took this screenshot minutes before week 1 leagues started, this was prior to ZD’s joining as well. Regardless, good job on the win, but to state BG wasn’t already stacked couldn’t be further from the truth,

One day, people will realize that server population != wvw population.

But it is not this day.

People have been saying WvW is dying since month 2.

Leagues have put more people into WvW than have been in there for months, the queues were bad, for all servers in that first week, thats a GOOD THING for WvW, it means people are playing, and it means people find that its worth waiting for. If the devs had put even an ounce of thought into the schedule, we wouldn’t have this stupid repetitive matchup problem, and JQ SOR and BG would probably all have full queues still.

If queues get too long for individuals, or even for guilds, they will transfers off and go lower, something I think everyone can agree is a good thing. That was DIEs main reason for leaving SOR and BG has lost several guilds to it and after seasons are over I’m sure some more will too.

Things will continue to shift and change just like it always has.

Bash.7291:

Maelwaedd.5842:

Kiff.8157:

nirvana.8245:

Be aware there is a bug that seems to be related to this lag. I have noticed this on many occasions now and seen players commenting on it. Basically you cannot cast any skills. But others can. I had this happen recently during a defence over hills. During the fight I put it down to skill lag. However, after the fight I was still not able to use any skills and my guildies where running around with me using all their skills like nothing was wrong. I relogged and all my skills worked again. I probably went through that entire fight without skills whilst other players were able to. The bug is pretty gamebreaking and its hard to identify having it or if you are just experiencing skill lag.

Yes. That happened but I’m not sure if it was a bug. Sometimes the game just lost connection but others on ts were just fine.

You can fix that bug by picking up or using supply no need to relog, not sure what it is but its like the system cannot identify what weapon set you are using and therefor does nothing, even switching weapons will not fix it

Ive noticed this bug the most when trying to pick up ele weapons. If you cancel out of the pick up animation it seems to bug you from using any skills that are not instant cast (this includes heals and elites) Also, trying to pick up a different ele weapon doesn’t work, as it would not even allow me to pick it up. I will have to try the supply thing next time it happens though. The only way I knew how to fix it before was to get killed -.-

You can talk to an NPC, or pick up supply as well.

UnrepentantProcrastinator.7420:

LightningBlaze.4913:

Mag must be mad from getting zerged. They are zerging so much in sor bl atm. I can’t find a single solo roamer lol. They adapt so quickly.

Mag on SoR BL have abandoned all pretense of solo roaming.

Good, maybe they are finally getting some fun fights.

:D

skeeman.3140:

Maguuma’s biggest problem right now is itself. I’ve seen too many instances of people instructing others to report players for scamming because they didn’t drive a golem where the mumble commander wanted it. If the player didn’t drop the golem, have the person who did kick them out. If they dropped the golem, oh well.

Gold league has made WvW less fun. Not because we are losing, but because people are taking the game way too seriously. Can you believe the nerve of that newbie? How dare they attempt to try driving a golem! They died a whole minute before the rest of our golems did three minutes later when we got rolled by that zerg when we tried to take Stone Mist!

What’s that meme? The internet: serious business? I guess…

Can’t kick golum drivers. All servers have this problem. Thats why you build 20.

MokoToko.6890:

Gilgamesh.7364:

Now imagine that x15 in a battle where its 60vs60. The importance of surviving in large scale battles comes 2nd to none.

Why would that be relative when a single ele properly geared can drop meteors for 12k each on a single area per strike, especially when you get multiple doing it? You can wear all the pvt in the world, but you’re probably still going to die.

Dodgeroll

Jeydra.4386:

Blackgate commanding:

Takes Stonemist
“OK guys I really want to be able to push on SoR later tonight”
“Build these ACs. Build this treb too. You can treb Klovan from here right?”
Zerg builds 3 ACs 1 treb in Stonemist
15 minutes later …
Scout calls 20 SoR SM inner west gate, rams down
Commander decides not to defend SM
What! You built siege in SM and then decide not to defend it??
“I … changed my mind”
“Feel free to tag up if you don’t like it”

---

I don’t have an issue with mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. Earlier for example I did a bad portal into inner SM, getting everyone killed and delaying us taking SM by a long while. But I do take issue with making mistakes and pretending it wasn’t a mistake. Some people spent a lot of time running supply to SM, building more ACs, as well as scouting, under the illusion that we were going to defend SM. If the idea was to not defend SM in the first place, make it clear from the beginning and we could’ve saved time, blueprints and supply. We could’ve done some roaming, flipped some camps, or joined the main zerg.

Shame on the people who defended the commander too. Yes, she’s from one of BG’s most prominent WvW guilds and yes, blood is thicker than water, but mistakes are still mistakes and should be recognized as such. It’s only when mistakes are recognized that they can be fixed and not repeated in the future. To do something like offer to compensate the people who were building ACs does not help, and in fact is the kind of thing that makes me less inclined to join said commanders’ zerg in the future.

Jeydra,

Firstly, sounds like a brand new commander. And new commanders need one thing, confidence. Or they won’t be commanding again, ever. A lost SM isn’t worth blowing a new commanders confidence. I am sure that if it was a prominent WvW guild that they were discussing the mistake internally, or in PMs. Airing it in TS isn’t usually the best way to build confidence. Commanding isn’t easy, and it can take weeks to get a good handle on it, even if you’ve been playing WvW for months.

You can have all the forces in the world, but they won’t be effective if you don’t have good commanders, and good commanders have to come from mistakes. I’m SURE she knew she screwed up. And I always back my guild commanders publicly, and privately make sure they know what to do better next time, I’m sure other guilds are similar.

Well at least this thread has something new being discussed. Its still kitten, but new kitten.

HotPants.5604:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Gilgamesh.7364:

robocafaz.9017:

Shunt.6254:

In this situation red = most skilled, blue/green = most blobs.

Quoted for truth.

You’re right, true winners play for 3rd place!

First is the worst.
Second is the best.
Third is the one with the really hairy chest.

:3

AFK scanning my office for hidden camera’s… perv

LOL This made me laugh.

500g from the BG warchest.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

JaredKincade.9761:

Just so everyone is clear. Blackgate warchest has struck again. We’ve paid the Maguuma commanders a total of 20k gold to double team SOR all week long.

They weren’t going to fight before we paid them, because we all know that the lowly tier 2 servers actually don’t like winning, and trying for 2nd place without “motivation” is beyond them.

That is all.

I didn’t receive my Gold in the mail yet. This might be a bug, so I submitted a report. Hopefully Devon can fix this so I can pick up the Gold, or I won’t be taking SM all week.

Ok, I’ve sent a mail to the right people, but they don’t seem to be responding.

My advice would be to completely stop WvWing until this problem can be resolved. It shouldn’t be too hard, since any T2 server doesn’t really fight anyway unless BG pays them.

Expect your payment shortly.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

It boggles the mind that you’re proud of that.

It boggles the mind when people fail to have a sense of humor.

Its like iceland and greenland. Greenland is made of ice, iceland can be green.

Cuddlestrike likes to play nice, and cuddlepie can play mean.

geekanerd.4123:

Most of DIE is in Ehmry Bay for a few weeks. I know BG would like to think they made us leave. By all means, please do, if it makes y’all feel better. However, the reality is we’re going to spend a little time running as a full guild without fighting queues to get into BLs. And it’s only temporary. We’ll annoy SoR again soon enough, I’m afraid.

I thought SOR didn’t have queues?

And do you mean running as a full guild to be without anyone who isn’t in your guild? Without pugs?

No one really runs it, it just start starts happening when people stop caring so much about the score.

For the record, that “Karma Train” had no real commander. People were BSing in TS and on uplevels. We joked that the zerg had become self aware, it was running on auto.

Honestly there’s not a ton to do during NA prime and it was 4 hours after that. We all just ran straight in, no might stack, no viel, we knew you were in there, we just didn’t really care.

Karma Train can’t really be ruined, its just something to do while we wait for someone to fight us. If you had fun killing us with siege than that is awesome. But don’t pretend you killed an organized force, we were just in it for LoLs. We had a good time too laughing about it and I’m sure you did too. Why not leave it at that instead of posting about it in the forums like it matters?

MagiKarp.8201:

Keiel.7489:

I’m still not sure why we are on the topic of who outnumber who at what time. Does it matter to you that much that BG PVD at times we are not as active? Do you log in and can’t find anyone to fight? or are you jealous that BG gets to PvD and you aren’t?

They jealous of our pool parties.

I tend to splash a bit.

Thats just us stacking water fields and blast finishers while we PvD.

Its 730pm in London right now, and 830pm in Paris. That sounds like EU primetime to me.

Butter.3024:

JaredKincade.9761:

Ok, so I’m curious. Can someone break down the times more closely for me, the time change has messed me up on where exactly the Oceanic SEA and EU start and end.

I realize Russia covers an area linking SEA to EU, but there’s also massive overlap. I consider about 7 to 12 local time to be an area’s “primetime”. NA has an 8 hour primetime, East coast 7pm, to west coast 12pm. Though honestly as gamers many of us push it to 1am so 6 hours is a maybe, but a stretch.

Before time change, I considered 1am west coast, or server time, to be the start of oceanic. If I pushed kitten a night and commanded through to SEA I’d have to wait till 4am until I started seeing SEA commanders tag up, and that may be a little early for them. So if you add 5 hours to that, we are talking around 9am when SEA should start getting late.

Working backwards, 4pm west coast is when East coast prime starts (7pm on east coast) and would be late of EU. (I know Brazil gets to fit in there and I think one of us has a decent Brazil guild, or used to). So hack 5 to 6 hours off that and your talking 11am to 10am west coast.

Is this the magic window we are talking about 9am west coast (server time) to 10-11am?

Again I realize that with the recent time change, it may be all off an hours if we are comparing to West coast, but I think server time remains unchanged.

Basically when ZD logged on with 60+ members, it was about an hour after OCX and an hour before EU, so ZD gotta do whatever they want with no resistance, notably flipping all T3 and raise PPT gap by 2k

This is what most of us meant when one guild completely turns the tide of the battle

Yes, but isn’t after Oceanic and before EU exactly where SEA is? All the Asian guilds? I know SOR has guilds that don’t speak English, that cover after Oceanic and before EU.

Basically anyone who speaks Russian, or Mandarin, or Korean fit into that “After Oceanic and before EU” zone.

Ok, so I’m curious. Can someone break down the times more closely for me, the time change has messed me up on where exactly the Oceanic SEA and EU start and end.

I realize Russia covers an area linking SEA to EU, but there’s also massive overlap. I consider about 7 to 12 local time to be an area’s “primetime”. NA has an 8 hour primetime, East coast 7pm, to west coast 12pm. Though honestly as gamers many of us push it to 1am so 6 hours is a maybe, but a stretch.

Before time change, I considered 1am west coast, or server time, to be the start of oceanic. If I pushed kitten a night and commanded through to SEA I’d have to wait till 4am until I started seeing SEA commanders tag up, and that may be a little early for them. So if you add 5 hours to that, we are talking around 9am when SEA should start getting late.

Working backwards, 4pm west coast is when East coast prime starts (7pm on east coast) and would be late of EU. (I know Brazil gets to fit in there and I think one of us has a decent Brazil guild, or used to). So hack 5 to 6 hours off that and your talking 11am to 10am west coast.

Is this the magic window we are talking about 9am west coast (server time) to 10-11am?

Again I realize that with the recent time change, it may be all off an hours if we are comparing to West coast, but I think server time remains unchanged.

EDIT: I realize this is pretty simplistic. I know that Austrialia has an east and west coast, that SEA starts on different timezones and runs for the 5 hours local time, and that there are more than 1 EU timezone. However, this would only seem to increase gradual coverage from guilds into something that’s hard to define on a specific hour every day.

Hope you guys didn’t get a splinter from our garrison, I’d be sad…

Jeebus, one keep loss and the forums blow up.

And things were looking so positive for 5 minutes.

Keiel.7489:

Maelwaedd.5842:

hardknockbb.6284:

Sunt.6835:

hardknockbb.6284:

Heard a BG commander rage quit on BG BL not too long ago.

I heard a whole SoR wvw rage quited since reset night.

That’s ok we’re having more fun collecting loot. Got my third precursor.

Did Anet do something to the precursor drop rate? cos I got the legend on friday and someone else in the guild also got another precursor, and i have heard a number of people have gotten them since then too, or it could be i have noticed it more since i got mine

Should’ve kept your mouth shut, now Anet is going to nerf precursor drops.

Don’t be silly, ANET doesn’t read this thread.

Balefire.7592:

JaredKincade.9761:

It shows how differently SOR and BG consider their community. SOR is very proud of the fact they never ever “buy” guilds to SOR. They talk about their community but they refuse to help any guild become a part of it.

BGs community is inclusive and SOR’s is exclusive…

In contrast to that philosophy is SOR’s, which can be boiled down to “Get on my level.” You make it clear that no one is welcome to SOR unless they take a step of faith towards your community, instead of you making a step of faith towards their guild. It is the same attitude towards new players on your own server. They have to be as “hardcore” as your guilds are before they are welcome on the map. Casuals need not apply, either to your guilds or your server.

Has your guild considered and/or moved to SoR? If not, I kindly request that you edit your opinions on what you believe to be the case out of your post, or add a disclaimer, rather than assert them as facts. Until you have moved over here and experienced what we do and do not offer, you are not in a position to judge our standards.
By the same token you view your methods as beneficial, we view ours as beneficial. Different strokes for different folks. If you are happy with your server community, than that should be sufficient for you – you have nothing to prove or gain by critizing the methods you think we use.

You failed to read my final paragraph. Its not a criticism, it is a request.

Different strokes for different folks is correct. Guilds that have the same attitude will join you as it their right, and I hope they are happy there.

In my opinion it isn’t the way to build a community, true. But you have got to deal with the consequences of the actions you are taking, not laying them on our feet.

Fixed for clarification.

All the posts about “buying” guilds has got me thinking.

Before I start let me clarify something that people like to forget. I can’t speak for all servers, but I know enough about what’s going on BG to know that BG has never ever given more than the cost of a guild to move. In fact, I know of no particular case where it was more than 50% of the moving costs. In ZDs case, it was much much less. So for the definition of helping guilds move, or “buying” I’m talking about 50% or less than the guild cost to move.

It shows how differently SOR and BG consider their community. SOR is very proud of the fact they never ever “buy” guilds to SOR. They talk about their community but they refuse to help any guild become a part of it.

BGs community is inclusive and SOR’s is exclusive. BG invites guilds to become a part of its community. More importantly, we are willing to go to bat for any guild that wants to become a part of it. We’ve done influence boosts, let people share guild missions and yes, we’ve sent gold to help reduce a guilds out of pocket expense to become a part of our community.

It’s not something we are ashamed of, it’s something we are PROUD of. Committing to moving a guild that one person or a small group of people have worked months or even a year to build to move to a new home is scary. The costs are enormous, not just transfer costs, but influence for guild upgrades and guild missions are a six week minimum to rebuild, that’s with unlimited influence. Why in the world would a guild make that sacrifice if they weren’t 100% sure they would be welcomed into the new community.

That’s why we go to great lengths to make them feel welcome and put our money where our mouth is and help cut the costs they have down. We show them that we want them here, that we’ll make room for them on reset night, that we’ll invite them to the server meetings and welcome them to post on server websites. Nothing brings guilds together like sharing the same guild chat for a week or two while you build influence or share guild missions. THAT is community.

(EDIT: Based on posts that SOR never ever helps guilds move with gold)
In contrast to that philosophy is SOR’s, which can be boiled down to “Get on my level.” You make it clear that no one is welcome to SOR unless they take a step of faith towards your community, instead of you making a step of faith towards their guild.

(EDIT: Based on posts from your community in this very thread) It is the same attitude towards new players on your own server. They have to be as “hardcore” as your guilds are before they are welcome on the map. Casuals need not apply, either to your guilds or your server.

Then, you make it a point to degrade and downtalk BG for its community choices. We aren’t inclusive in your eyes, we are “PvX guilds filled with pugs”. We don’t help people that want to join our community, we “buy guilds as mercenaries” and “destroy competitive play”.

A guild wants to know that you as a server have their back once they move over, not be worried that they will be excluded once the gems are spent.

Do not lay the blame of a difference in population or coverage on the choices we’ve made on how we built our community. Maybe take a look at the image of your own community you’re putting out.