The problem with horizontal progression is that when you feel your character is complete, you have no reason to continue, whereas with vertical progression, you’re (eventually) forced to continue.
But it is only true for games where the vertical developing of the character is the main (or only) target. If the game have other sources of fun than you do not need vertical progression to enjoy it – at all.
And again, an RPG do not have to have a vertical progression to be a RPG. It is for sure true for RPGs in general, but it is true for the MMORPGs in particulary.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
This is why I said people who hate vertical progressions are playing the wrong genre. mmorpg is all about vertical progression.
It is common now, yeap. But the mmorpg without a vertical progression is still a mmorpg. It’s just an unusual (you even can say outstanding) mmorpg.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
RPGs are about vertical progression, Dungeon and Dragons, the father of computer RPGs, has, along with a very nice journey, vertical progression through levels, XP and +items. And when you think you reach the top in D&D you start gaining epic levels, and then divinity.
RPGs are NOT about vertical progression. RPGs are about playing the role. It’s actually in the name.
It is true that a lot of RPGs have the leveling component with huge vertical progression but both of them are not necessary for the genre.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
There’s nothing wrong with have 900 hours of playtime, if you can properly balance your playtime,work and social life. My friend is studying to be a pediatrician, so I don’t see how he isn’t normal, and I myself am studying commerce. You don’t have to play 10 hours straight, a few hours here and there can easily add up to 10 within a day.
Made my day
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
You can run with GS and Focus and try to pull out some AoE out of iBerz and iWarden. And you can go the shattering road and produce some AoE out of F1/F2. If you do it right it could be bearable. If you do it really good it could be ok. But not more than that. Mesmer just sucks if it’s get to AoE. We all have to live with it or go and play Eles, Guards or Engs.
Just my personal experience to the topic
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
It’s really cut and dry, there is no grey area,
But it obviously is. You differ between MMO’s and non-MMO’s based on quantitative characteristics, not on qualitative. Like: If you can play with N<X players in the same instance, then it is a MMO. If you can play with only N<Z players in the same instance, then it is not a MMO. Like: If you have x% of the world instanced then it’s not a MMO, but if you have y% of the world instanced then it is not.
So either you can give the exact values AND justify them, or we need some qualitative characteristics.
PS: I assume, only ONE game right now allows all the player to be in the same world at the same time, it’s EVE. So all others MMO’s would be not really MMO’s after your definitions. Just MMO-like.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
GW1 was not an MMO. It had less than 10% of the world that was persistent. 90% of the game was instanced.
GW1 was a graphical Diablo…. instead of Chat Room you had towns….once you left a town you cannot meet new people in your instance.
GW2 is an MMO…. 90% of the world is persistant.
Yup, By their logic, red dead redemptions online sandbox mode was an MMO as well.
Funny thing is, it’s closer to being an MMO than GW1 is. But alas still not an MMO.
Just curios: where you guys see the border between MMO and no-MMO originating from instanced/non-instanced content btw. persistent/non-persistent world? 10% instanced world is persistent so the game is MMO. 90% intanced world is not persistent so the game is not MMO. What about 80%? 70%? 60%? 50%? Persistent? Not persistent? And… why?
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
A cash shop model from low-budget moneygrab asian game? Is that what you want? Just stop and think Kathmandu, you’re smarter than that.
You did really misunderstood me. I am absolutely with you that (max) stat gear in a cash shop sucks. But it sucks not more and not less than the necessity to grind for this (max) stat gear. Anet obviously introduces the grind treadmill to GW2, so they can as well put cash shop model to this game, too. The game wound not become worse because of it.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
From my point of view, buying the gear from the gem shop is as abhorrent as grinding 400 hours for it. So, if one is in the game already, and people argue that would want to keep it that way, i see no reason why those that would want to straight buy the items should be treated any worse.
Exactly my point. If you say A you can as well say B.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Like I said before, they purposely designed the store from the get go to where you don’t get to be like that. You play the game for fun yes, but the point is you have fun by doing the content in the intended way. What’s fun about skipping all the content and having digital items that make you an equal to me, someone who spent 450 hours getting to where I am today?
You enjoy grinding in general and grinding of dungeons in special? Fine for you, but I don’t. In special case of GW and ascended gear I would not skip any content of GW except the repetitive running of one dungeon for 450 hours. I could wonderfully enjoy the remaining 99,9999% of the game.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
No, no. No stat gear in the gem store, that’s a truly awful idea.
Why not? Some people love to grind ingame, others prefer to grind in RL. Why should the first one have more fun in GW2 than the second?
With that logic, why play guild wars when you could work a second job and still get the same benefits in the game? I’ll just list my preschool “diploma” on my resume, no need to attend harvard. You have to PLAY the game to progress in the game.
The logic is easy. I don’t play the game for benefits or progress. I play the game for fun. Grinding is not fun. I would love to skip this. Why do this upset you so much? You have the time to spend, I have money to spend. We meet with top gear in the game and have fun together.
PS: Please, do not let me be misunderstood. I spend no real money in this game since 13. November and I would hate to see the p2w mechanics here. But buying the ascended gear is not pay-to-win: it don’t give the guy with more money any advantages against the guy with more time.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
No, no. No stat gear in the gem store, that’s a truly awful idea.
Why not? Some people love to grind ingame, others prefer to grind in RL. Why should the first one have more fun in GW2 than the second?
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Yeap. And even a MMORPG don’t have to be like WoW. It actually shouldn’t be like WoW because what’s the point of making a worse clone of something?
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
So let’s be extreme then. I can’t see an rpg without character progression.
It is your fault, if you don’t. See, if you spell RPG you find a lot about playing a role in this concept but nothing about leveling.
Sure, it is common to have leveling in most RPGs on the market now. But it is not a inherent feature of the role playing game.
PS: The discussion here is something I have every second time a DnD-players comes into a DSA or Shadowrun group. “What? We a through the module and still the same level???” “What? I got two levels more and still cant fight dozen of orcs alone?” You can just shake your head…
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
if you don’t find the fotm dungeon fun. don’t do it. the gear you get from it allows you to progress in it. it’s not required to have fun.
But I have to do it because I sooner or later lose the fun in other parts of the game otherwise.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
And what if a part of the game you like is suddenly off limits to you because you don’t meet the gear requirement?
i guess i’d figure out what the gear req. was and what i’d need to do to get it.
And you are ok with that? If it constantly happens, over and over and over again, with every new patch the type of content you liked requires you get the gear from the last patch only to give you new gear that will be required in a latter patch? And you would be ok doing that OVER and OVER again, just to get that new piece of gear? [/quote]
He is obviously ok with that. And that’s ok.
The problem is, he want that we are ok with that.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Can someone just clarify this for me: What changed?
People are saying the game is no longer fun, but the game that existed before the patch is still here. They simply added new content.
If the old content was fun, why are you trying to do things that are un-fun? Why not stick to the stuff you find to be fun? (I personally hate sPvP so I don’t sPvP. Problem solved, if you don’t like fractals or the karka, don’t do them)
To use the analogue already posted here some times: people who are not happy with the new tier of items are vegetarians. They come to a restaurant who promised them 100% veg food, ordered some meal, started to enjoy the soja steaks and tofu rolls.
But now the chief began to cook meat in the same kitchen. So all the so tasty veg things have this hated meat flavor on them.
Nothing disappeared, all the great things a still there. But the new smell ruins all the fun nevertheless.
I understand what you’re saying and you do have a point! I would just disagree on one thing, the dishes dont really taste of meat, the progression is total segregated to the fractals of the mists so far, if you do Pve you dont need to touch it at all, if you do any other dungeon you dont need to touch it at all and while there might be some cross contamination in WvW to be fair its sooooo small I would say its more a smell rather then an actual taste!
But you’re on to something I would say its more like vegiterains just hating the idea their favorite restaurant is serving meat even though it doesnt really affect them!
You are right, that the issue by itself is (almost) negligible right now because the introduced new tier items have very little impact on the overall character performance outside of the fractal dungeon.
But it’s just the first step. In the end of the day we will have a full set of new gear and it will make a huge difference in every aspect of the game.
So right now we have just a little bit meat smell in the kitchen. But soon you will have a huge rib-eye-steak on each plate you get served.
Not a bad thing by itself… but not something you want to experience in a veg local.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Can someone just clarify this for me: What changed?
People are saying the game is no longer fun, but the game that existed before the patch is still here. They simply added new content.
If the old content was fun, why are you trying to do things that are un-fun? Why not stick to the stuff you find to be fun? (I personally hate sPvP so I don’t sPvP. Problem solved, if you don’t like fractals or the karka, don’t do them)
To use the analogue already posted here some times: people who are not happy with the new tier of items are vegetarians. They come to a restaurant who promised them 100% veg food, ordered some meal, started to enjoy the soja steaks and tofu rolls.
But now the chief began to cook meat in the same kitchen. So all the so tasty veg things have this hated meat flavor on them.
Nothing disappeared, all the great things a still there. But the new smell ruins all the fun nevertheless.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
I just dont understand how anyone can throw argument like: ‘’I have life, I have to work and I have 10 kids so I cant play that much’’
Wait, till you get marriet and get some kids.
And what about players like me and my friends who play 6-10+ hours a day (atm at 1000 hours played)
I ve done 200+ explorable dungeons and have nothing to do in PvE, I had to create several 80 lvl characters and still I have no use for tokens anymore.
You always can go and play wow. Or some other MMOs with grind as core element in them. There are dozens of them online.
The new dungeon is for those who dont have 10 dogs, 10 kids, 10 wifes and 20 works. For those who want to progress something
So all the casuals are not allowed to enjoy the game fully, only because of some guys without rl. Even this would be ok, but:
You cant blame NO ONE but yourself for not having enought time.
Yeah, it is our choice to have X time for GW2 and not more. But GW2 was sell to us as a game where it does not matter at all how much time you have to have all the fun. And it is not true any more. For THIS we can and will blame Anet. And all the grinder, if the decision was caused by their whining.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
You don’t pay a subscription. I just want you to sit and think about that for a minute.
I did paid a subscription for GW2 up to day before yesterday, when I read the patch notes.
But now I don’t, you are right.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Then there are the Hearts. Go catch some bugs and feed them to cows, but only the correct bugs to the correct cows. WTF? Others are just as bad.
Wait till you see 80 lvl Heroes trying to outrun rabbits in the norn starting zone
PS: Actually love such hearts. It’s boring to be serios all the time, even in a heroic RPG.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
You know wrong, they will have the same stats as ascended weapons, as stated by the devs already.
Yeah… like they stated before that the exotics will be the top tier items.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
The same here: wanted to invite two friends but read about the treadmill beginning and didn’t. They do not have more time for grind as I have, so why bother?
Still sounds like revenge to me.. The grind comes nowhere near other MMO’s that most people play right now. Most of the people that say they played wow etc never even played wow long enough and I can tell by reading their posts. Real wow players know that the grind comes from loot being random and competition on rolls and daily and weekly caps. Nobody has ever mentioned that GW2’s system doesn’t work like that. So how can the grind be anything close to that?
I only started to play GW2 because Anet said there will be no necessary to grind at all, as long as we talk about Stats.
After 3 months we already have the gear treadmill started. I do not have enough time for this and I do not want play a game with treadmill either. My friends are people like me, so for sure I wouldn’t invite them. Why it is a revenge?
PS: I don’t care how much worse the gear treadmill is in WoW or other games. Why should I? Anet said there will be no such thing here, in GW2.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
The same here: wanted to invite two friends but read about the treadmill beginning and didn’t. They do not have more time for grind as I have, so why bother?
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Your post is also wrong, because I was talking about 1 ring, not an entire set….
But entire set will be in the game later or – probably – sooner. And this will make the difference.
One kittenroach it not a problem for everyone. But whats the point in this statement if kittenroaches always come in dozens?
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
“The new additions in November are just the start of our item progression initiative.”
Just read this in the news by Linsey Murdock. So we can forget the hope, it’s not a stand-alone issue. We will have item progression initiative in GW2.
Great. I loved this game and wanted to play it for some years, you know
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
tl;dr. ANet has not clarified that Ascended Gear is the final tier before Legendary tier, people are not guaranteed to get equipment plateau – This is essentially Gear Treadmill.
Except that they did clarify that they won’t, and it’s still not a gear treadmill. Lieing won’t change anything.
I’m not lying. There are nothing from ANet that says this is the last tier before Legendary. You owe me the burden of proof.
If you want to quote: “We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” Don’t bother
“Don’t quote the very thing that invalidates my entire argument! It’s not fair!”
See, this is you right now. It’s not making you look right. It’s making you look unable to accept that you’re wrong.
Among the five stages of acceptance you are either in denial or bargain. Not sure which but amusing none the less.
They say, that there will be no new tier of gear every 3 month. They do not say, that there will be no new tier of gear every 6 month. So we will probably have a slow treadmill. But hey, slow treadmill is still a treadmill, you know.
The thing is, this new 2-3 better items are not really an issue by itself. But this is a first step on the treadmill road, while we all were promised that this road will be completely not existent in GW2. Like someone said already, if you are pregnant you are pregnant. Even if its just the 1. week of the pregnancy.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Seriously, I just want a straight answer. If they say there’s more coming in the future, I can quit while I’m ahead.
If they say this is it, no more stat bumps ever, I can deal with one tier. It honestly seems like something that got cut right before release anyway. And then if they do add more down the road, I know their true colors and can get out as soon as news breaks.
Would you trust someone who lied to you once? About the same topic, actually?
This is the main problem here.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
What part of " Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill" and "We will not be adding a new tier every 3 month and expect people to grind for them " do you not understand?
They say “Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill” and make new gear which is better then present and is needed for playing new content.
They say “We will not be adding a new tier every 3 month and expect people to grind for them”. They do not say, that this will not happen every 6 month.
Like I said, there is a treadmill. A slight one. So they say now. Like they said there will be no treadmill at all some time before.
You are ready to believe someone who lied to you once? You are either a really good man or a really stupid one.
But again, maybe the new gear is not better or can be got by everyone without effort. Than all the muff is for nothing, sure.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
2 showatt:
Arena stated, there will be no gear mill in GW2 at all. Now Arena (so it seems to be) states, there will be gear mill… but slight, without big impact on the game.
When the second statement will be true, then Arena lied to us in the first time. What makes you so sure that this will be the last lie?
PS: For sure, we don’t know how exactly this new gear will be implemented. But it seems pretty clear to be a introduction of the gear mill for me.
They never stated “There will be gear mill.”
They stated "There still isn’t going to be a gear mill " and “the new tier of gear is one time only and it is designed to not be over-powerful ( you can’t use rune in infusion slot. Infusion is designed only to counter agony given the information gathered) give the players who ran out of stuff to do something to work on.”
You need to go back and re-read everything.
Here we go: “Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.”
Sorry, but I read a gear treadmill here clearly (yeah, slight one. So they say us now. As well as they said us earlier, that there will be no gear mill at all). Except the new gear will be really easy to get or does not improve your states at all. In both cases it would be strange to introduce new gear in the first place.
I have hope, still, and will surely not quit until I see the new content by myself.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
2 showatt:
Arena stated, there will be no gear mill in GW2 at all. Now Arena (so it seems to be) states, there will be gear mill… but slight, without big impact on the game.
When the second statement will be true, then Arena lied to us in the first time. What makes you so sure that this will be the last lie?
PS: For sure, we don’t know how exactly this new gear will be implemented. But it seems pretty clear to be a introduction of the gear mill for me.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
The fact is, most people – contrary to what forum whiners believe – are actually EXCITED about the change. This is why Anet is not undoing the change.
I see a lot of complaints about the introduction of the gear mill to GW2, it would be a KO criteria for me, I can also see how it will take the most unique characteristic of GW2 away (and it is always good for your business to have some unique characteristic if the market has a lot of alternatives to offer).
So can you please show me, how it is the fact, that the most people are happy to see a gear mill in GW2?
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Two hours a day is 2 TV shows. You’re telling me most people in the world are unable to watch 2 TV shows in one day because it’s a hardcore time commitment and they have lives?
I have played plenty of MMO’s with adult, working people, many of whom were married and/or had children. You don’t have to be “people without jobs and students neglecting their classes” to play an MMO for 2 hours.
Two hours? Sure. Two hours A DAY? Not a chance.
Sure, I’ve known people with children who were able to game hours every night. While their spouse was in the background taking care of the kids, doing the cooking, cleaning etc… If you’re lucky enough to have such a partner, sure, you can game for hours a day. However, if you are the kind of person who shares the household responsibility equally, there is no way you can game two hours a day unless it’s the only hobby you have and you don’t need much sleep.
+1
It is the main reason I play GW2: I can (could) be sure, that even with 3-5 hours a week I will sooner or later maximize my char statwise and do not have to care about gear afterwards. The moment I see the the necessary of constant grinding in this game implementend, I quit.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
I think the developers aren’t going to change their plans, NOT because there is a strong majority of players that actually want the ascended gear, but likely because all of the work is already done and they honestly feel that once we try it we will like it.
Finally someone who actually understand what I’m talking about.
However lets put this into scenario okay:
Anet Lead: Hmm the game’s losing popularity we gotta do something fast.
Anet Dev: How about adding endgame gear progression, so player can grind for new gears, and the higher stats will motivate them to do so!
Anet Lead; THAT SOUNDS PERFECT! I know everyone’s gonna love it. Lets do it
Not so realistic right?
The fact is, they most certainly knew this would happen. But still, they went ahead with making the changes. Why would they risk making so many players angry, if they actually are not supported by a greater faction of people who are :
1. Indifferent to the change
2. Support the change
3. Not happy, but willing to give the change a chance.
??
This is the main reason why I believe, that most people, actually don’t care about the change as much as the “VOCAL” majority do.
You makes a huge mistake here: you takes as given than such decisions are right. But the problem is, such decisions are often wrong. A browser game I was playing some time ago did exactly the same thing. They changed the game philosophy because they slowly loosed customers and wanted to stop it. They did it through all the community screamed “NO! NO! NO!” At the end the game proceeded to lose customers, but much quicker. And it is for sure not an exceptional case in the game history.
1. Even if a change is needed, not every change will make the situation better.
2. Everyone makes mistakes. Even developers who use sophisticated tools for making the decisions.
Think about it
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Are they supposed to be a bad caricature of communist Russia?
My last doubts about it disappeared when I got to the Dostoev Sky
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Those who say “stop playing” are missing out on the true point; what we will do is “stop paying.” And make no mistake, those of us who were playing this game for its unique promises different from other MMO’s do pay, I for one have certainly been putting in more per month through the gem shop that I have ever paid in subscription feels to any other MMOs, because I thought what A-net’s manifesto brougth to us was worth it… But, no more. Not unless this vertical gear progression is stopped flat, in line with the A-net gw2 manifesto.
This. The absence of the power creep makes (made?) GW2 unique. It’s the main factor I play and pay GW2. The moment I see power creep here I just quit.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Haha cool, I figured so… Just got done playing a guardian for awhile, probably while I am feeling especially squishy
Yeah, I got the same experience as you… just other way around. At first took mesmer to 80 and now playing with a guardian. Feels like I’m driving a kitten panzer.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
You are playing a caster cloth-armor class, rTeapot, don’t forget it. If you can handle 4-5 mobs in melee without a tank, then you are not squishy
And yes, it’s normal, imho.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
GS as implemented is the epitome of deception. A giant two-handed weapon that is almost entirely ranged. Can’t think of a better way to highlight the nature of a mesmer.
This.
What I really hate, though, is that most of the great swords in this game are not great swords but shovels. C’mon, Anet, give us some decent Zweihändlers.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Thanks And kitten
Ok, till I get the star it will be probably fixed.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
You can turn that star off though, right?
Can you? (No sarcasm here, do not know and would be happy to learn the soft way)
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
I can say I will. Since I’m “saving money” since this game has no sub. I’ll prolly dump money to get some costumes
+1
Had very few time to spend so could barely take part in the Halloween event but let Anet see some money for the costumes. Will do it again at Christmas because good work should be paid.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
I never even tried the tower either, but I tried to jump into the cauldron in LA for an hour and never made it.
What, you could jump into the cauldron? OOO
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
I agree with both points completely. However, I do believe that many replies still fall under the category of “troll” or “misguided fanboi”. That’s not everyone, but if it is their intent to smooth things over or help out ANET PR, then it is really having the opposite effect.
For sure a lot of post here right now are 100% emotional or trolling. But it’s true for both sides of the barricades
IMHO, it’s good to see some positive view on the topic on the forums. You need to hear the pro’s as well as contra’s if you want to find a better solution.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Why does it matter if everyone else has <insert item here> if YOU enjoy it?
I just never understood the mentality of “I have it therefore to feel like a special snowflake you can’t have it.”
It’s a valid question but you’ll get no answer. But a lot o people ticks this way as a matter of fact.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
IMO, what turned this into a real kittenstorm is the people coming in and in so many ways inferring that the people who paid X and expected Y were all morons. Very few posts have been people demanding their money back… it’s mostly just people logging a complaint. Then threads spin out of control when trolls and misguided fanbois try to marginalize these complaints and arguing ensues.
1. You do complain in public, you have to take the risk that some other people find your complains silly, childish, unfair, excessive etc. and will state this in public too.
2. There are always at least to views present about everything. And your view isn’t always the correct one.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
TransparentlyOpaque.1824
In games of chance, you should always go in ready to lose.
Lose real money like in a toilet ? nope.
Gw2 isn’t a casino bro.
Yeah, in a casino you have to spend your money to have fun. In GW2 you don’t.
You may still do it though – if you choose to.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
I spent $50. I’ve worked for various companies and I’ve learned all the tricks to getting your way with credit card companies. Most of which would probably have my game account locked but like I said before, this isn’t the only game I play. On top of this I play WoW, EVE, Mechwarrior Online, Minecraft, Tera, Planetside 2, LoL, FFXI, Diablo 3, Starcraft II and many more lol.
The thing is, would you have gotten the skin you want you would be completely happy and pries A.net for this. But you were not so lucky so you are whining and demand you money back.
Don’t you have some testicles left to stand for your actions and not blaming others for decisions you made?
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
I would like Arenanet to do these 2 things:
1. State the odds of finding a rare item in a chest very clearly: for example 1 in 1000 or whatever it happens to be.
2. Place a limit on how many keys children can buy. Let them buy about 10 keys per month. If someone wants to buy more than that, there should be a popup that you certify that you are at least 18 years old and understand that the odds of getting any particular item may be very small.
I don’t have a problem with the actual situation but this would be very good move, imho. Particularly the second point.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.
Were there a few million of them for sale then?
Nope. But the fact that you have quite a lot of affordable skins on the market every time you look for them means by itself that you don’t need this million. There are apparently more Halloween skins ingame than players who want them.
13th November. The Grind Wars begin.