Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 is coming into its 4th month. For pvpers, we have seen, one new spvp map, a major setback for WvWvW’s who wish to play at their best due to ascended gear, various exploits pertaining to pvp (inclusive of jumping exploits, teleport through door exploits etc) not fixed , and many other glaring balance issues not address.

This could be taken as a standard norm for most MMO’s until you factor in that , 3 high content events have been given to the pve community. The biggest issue of ranking/ladder/matchmaking and above all, game mode types , is not introduced. Balance ability changes are now done in a lazy (dual effect in pve and pvp have different uses and durations guardians save yourself and recent changes)

The whole WvWvW lack of goals and guild bonuses for keep capturing and defending , plus new added gear issue , plus multiple issues tied to down system and rally zerg meta. The glaringly obvious lack of dev testing when viewed in hindsight for the time it took to nerf mesmer portals.

It is simple guys, PVP is not the priority of GW2 . To belive it will evolve to esport is foolish when not even holiday pvp weapons are introduced. The game model is also being swayed by public views more than developers testing ( changes to down state hp due to whining when others may even argue that downstate hp should just reflect 50% of build hp) .

TLDR: PVP is not priority for GW2 , dont get your hopes up for any modicum of competitive play. The only fun you will get does not come with any sense of accomplishment. patch 12/14/12 patch is the nail in the coffin for a LOT of players.

@ lucas, nope there is a LOL banner which says , 1 in 4 youths in singapore play LoL "

You for real? Besides all the stupid hair shampoo commercial, try from orchard to dhobbyghaut to bugis . You get the same people 3 boys 1 girl doing random posses and random heroes in front . Heck its even at my ang mo kio bus station lan shop …

That aside , if you read the post, the game will be able to organize a price based on the moderator for the transmute to pve. Its simple, articulate the base cost of your 250 mats x vial x globs etc , rng should cancel out with rng from kills , and convert it to gems , then take a census of average badge gain , and reconvert it back , boom .

Also, what do you mean pve is force to pvp ? you can get the ascended gear fine from pve if farming 250 bloods or globs is your thing … ill ask it to you this way, Is the community already NOT fractured from all pvp’ers screwed currently? ..

And , what do you mean play for free? Does your current WvWvW’ers not pay for skin prices too like others said? did we suddenly not have to pay for repairs or commander titles or keep upgrades ? Cause there sure was alot of people who bought gems > gold for rams/ballista’s golems / titles/ skins..

Wow to those saying GW2 isnt marketed as a pvp game , i give to you every e3 conference, and even the public Dev’s versus the players showmatch. The pvp segment for gw2 has always been the larger part of the presentation. Any argument otherwise is honestly lacking in background knowledge of GW2 publicity during creation ..

@astralporing ,

That is ultimately true. But this is exactly why the arguments on the forums are so rampant, as ultimately every individual has their own style of approach to the game. It is the worth of a game to stick by its rules , once changed, then everything from player approach must change. And precisely because it is so tough to change ones character , is why the forums are at wars…

Will you not accept the simple fact that views are different when you look at said “game” If we establish a base criteria for game definition ," yours would most likely be an activity with rules played to have fun". Mine would be ," An fun activity with rules" .

And i think with that, we can approach topic two ," you generalize players to identify that the game is purely recreational" . I dont . But heres the kicker, your approach to the rebuttal is based on your definition of “game” and mine is of mine. I implicated your definition as biased, you told me i lack the comprehension of what you were initially saying. Here we are now. The discussion , you may view games to be build based purely on entertainment, i believe that it is the user who dictates what it should be viewed upon ; and unfortunately both topics are straying from the OP’s discussion so i would like to end it here and focus on the human nature similarities of game design philosophy and how its rippling cause and effects.

Hmm you completely missed the point didnt you strang. Simply put , in an odd agreement, your style of play should be respected, but so should someone who approaches the game as a hobby/esport/real life. Eschewing either is in itself a form of prejudice which unfortunately is the basis of your point towards what the OP is posting , which some of us readers find it hard to digest.

Haha , i love that you are equally harsh on your views as you are on others, yet playfully so, very fun stuff.

But you have identified something clearly yes, it is indeed an opinion on how things should work, nothing more, and also advocated throughout the online environments.

However it has to be noted that i also believe that character which balances narcissism and yet allows a contradicting approach that values the opposing believes, is near impossible to replicate into a setting (the online game) that intuitively instructs the player, at least so far in time.

Simply put, i made in a choice in real life as to what my character should be, and approach the game in that same belief, setting myself as an example, however the argument should be made more about why does the setting not encourage the bridging of human natures , and further yet, not even steadfastly head down either path of human natures as per OP’s post. Your mystery is but a paradox criticism into the the creators lack of creativity which you already ascertained but still play the jokers card to laugh at them while singing a fencers tune , or perhaps a whisper for awareness.

sorry that post is in reply to strang’ post on , games are for fun.

And the obvious answer of no, your view on effort and skill does not make your desire to play more valid than his; however his agreement to join the game, should act as a binding act of honor to participate 100% , anything less should be approached individually and have no avenue to voice criticisms on topics pertaining to game participation, all else is free speech.

I love when people take the approach of exclusion that proceeds with I am only playing this game for fun; but then expect the remaining community to be inclusive with one’s own position.
The fact is , you cannot use that approach, because not everyone adheres to your premise. While you feel that a game is an activity different from life, others may view their avatar as an extension of their character , unrestricted. Noone enjoys the friend who says lets play football together, but then does not give it any modicum of effort to, for lack of a better word, play… even though he agreed to join in the game. Ever thought about it that way?

Who’s fault is it that the pvp side does not use the cash shop as often as the pve side? Specifically for WvW, spvp however has mountains of people utilizing glory gain. But in that analogy, do you see the errors of Arena net ways?

“If gw2 is purely a pvp game, it would fail…”

Ironic when the title of my post is about the demographic of the young generations of an entire country playing a pvp game (League of legends) … you would think that support for pvp in general is insufficient for an mmo. Not to mention LoL generates one of the largest revenue in the gaming industry … with almost a similar f2p/b2p(heroes) setup.

Did you know that slogan is being pasted all around the train lines of singapore ? Which also begs the question of why is GW2 so afraid to focus on PVP more than PVE to attract the community, when GW2 was in fact marketed as a pvp game, and has a predecessor (gw1) a legendary pvp mmo with meta far beyond its time, not even brought forward to GW2.

Does noone see the horrible focus on PvE again for the new patch (Even new dungeons for FoTM), and just a cut and paste of an october 8th post for esport glorification? On top of which, the community for spvp is near dead, and WvWvW biggest problem the rally system which favors zerging and zero strategy, and having people killed upwards of 10 times before you *win a fight is not addressed.

Please for the love of everything holy, re-prioritize the pvp aspect of the game and layoff your fotm dungeon which has already fractured the pve playerbase. Us pvp’ers will open the pve’ers who want horizontal progression with open arms, by simply adding ascended gear free to buy only usable in WvWvW /spvp , and unique skins in special dungeons in the WvWvW zone though possible to be gank /evilgrinz, but hey it promotes guilds/servers to work together…..

P.S. if you want to make money too from WvWvW after free to buy ascended in pvp, just add a booster for Badges drop rate to 100%, and price each gear to allow transmuting to PVE mode!!! Suddenly you have a subscription based PVP game in your PVE game, and its not pay to win because you can still farm badges normally !!!! OMGEEEEEE

To moderator:
Edited post so i dont get randomly bumped to spvp forums for no reason when i would like to discuss the bridging of the pve and pvp playerbase

Its simple stormleaf, you are taking the same example for two subsets of theories.
First theory is, the game is based on 6 stages, and will always BE designed in 6 stages, 6 being last.
Your second theory is , the game has an unknown amount of levels, only 6 have been discovered so far.

There fore when you introduce a new element, you have to identify your base theory, and GW2 originally was the first theory for all scientific purposes……. till….

Imagine GW2 to be basketball. You are in highschool playing it , its all about the cool jerseys, air nikes, offensive/defensive meta tactics that change with each player on the court.

Now you have graduated , and have kids, and your kids want to play basketball with you , wearing their new multicolored lebron james jersey, and his futuristic shoe line. You play together and have fun. That used to be GW2

Now insert ascended gear into the analogy.

You had fun in highschool, now 3 months x 5 years later , you have kids who want to play BBall with daddy. But they are wearing a bionic suit and specially enhanced spring boots that lets them dunk. Are they having fun, hell yes, are you having fun, hell no? Why? Because ask yourself, is this the basketball you knew?

If you play for today, you will enjoy ascended gear/fotm/karka smashing, if you play for tomorrow , you will be pissing your pants and screaming for a kitten to love you. Play for tomorrow my friends , let the sponsors change the stadium, change the brand, change the fashion…. NOT CHANGE THE GAME.

Its simple a game without gear progression allows one to approach it like a casual sport. Like say basketball, you played it in your college years and then stop, but after you graduated, and have kids, you can still play it with your children even though their approach to the game may be different.

Vertical gear progression is like trying to play with your kids, but your children have rocket boots and an armor suit that can tackle people with no foul. Is it fun for the kids, hell yes, is it fun for you down the road, hell no (simply because you cant compete).

In a simple phrase ," Players who play for today, enjoy the ascended gear progression , players who play for tomorrow, are horrified at what it brings."

I really love how they always say, if you have a condition removal or a stun break for warriors they are easy. Do you guys not think the warrior is aware of that? Its so ironic that even supposed* hardcore pro’s think its easy to evade bullcharge, bola 100 blades, or kill shot, when they fact is a pro warrior himself will be watching or baiting the dodge rolls AND condition removals with bleed or vulnerabilities…

Warriors have the highest burst bar thieves, that have the easiest means of execution (to do on a player). This means the highest dead zone of any class , whereby deadzone is a hp % you can have before you are in insta kill range. If anyone cannot see the advantage of that, then you are a bad pvp’er.

And that has been the bottom line for alot of players who bought GW2…..

“I came to gw2 for the WvWvW concept…….”

Sorry, when i said benefit PvE, i refer to activities, that progress one’s character permanently , like the ability to get special armor skins because your server is winning.

Heck, you could even introduce a special skin vendors in each zone, that are unlock when you have captured a prerequisite amount/variety of keeps and towers, and also require either loot essences from the mobs in that zone, or WvWvW marks. This would revitalize low level zones, and enforce player activity in BOTH fronts.

PvP centric MMO. That is the flavor of Gw1, and should have been carried over to GW2. And it was carried over, for a while….. then suddenly…

sPvP , zero changes in structure format since beta , annoying Conquest design that only favors bunkers and bursters, and completely boring meta.

PvE , non stop focus on upgrading , good, but new introduction of powercreep completely segragates all pvpers from doing what they love.

And the kicker, WvWvW , with the introduction of the rally system from downed state, GW2 has turned into a zergfest that favors zero tactics for large scale pvp. Biggest upset is WvWvW server wars, DOES NOT BENEFIT PVE. How can such an integral part of the game , which is also the biggest part of every campaign to sell your GW2 game, have zero influence on PvE. Heck you could have made the fractals of the mist only open when you have the most towers, or the most points in the recent hour, and not introduce powercreep ascended gear, and WvWvW would be 10 times more lively.

The writing is simple, We are no longer a PvP centric MMO . Esports Spvp is not the focus, neither is WvWvW the centralised pillar where the game should be designed upon.

What are we balanced around?

In GW2, there is no holy trinity, yet support roles are punished due to bad stat scaling, and bard style boon support play, provides so little on the table, DPS is king.

So then are we balanced around 1v1? I personally seem to think so , but not in the sense of duels, but effectively, performance. To elaborate, one must first identify the situation, without distinct pillar roles in combat, we have to look to the field which is being played, which is , Conquest.

How do you approach conquest, better than your fellow man ? Effectively , you do your role more efficiently , be it capping /roaming/ supporting/whatnot , but then here is the GW2 Conundrum. They designed the meta to be without the 3 Distinct pillars (tank/heal/Dps) , meaning, each class is suppose to be ABLE to fulfill all these roles. Herein lies the problem : Each class performs certain roles better than others.

Wait what!?! Then how can we have competitive pvp? The answer is we dont and that is why the skewing to classes which can perform their roles better than others (thieves/guard/mesmers). So how do we solve this situation then?

The answer is 1v1 / 2v2 Arenas WITH a fixed role concept, based on their Top Tier competitive battleground. huh what? Its simple, Imagine a 1v1 , arena , but the concept is Tanking(bunkering) so, the playing fields causes say environmental damage to both players every X seconds or something. Effectively the tankiest player will win . But if every class participates in this 1v1 arena, Suddenly the developers have a RESOURCE statistic to gather balance between classes.

The same goes for dps 1v1 arenas, Say the concept arena focuses on dps/mobility. Imagine a battleground where there are swinging axes that deal no dmg but cause knockbacks , and the floor crumbles slowly, the only way for you to survive, is to bash the opponent faster than he bashes you . Suddenly you have another statistic of which DPS class is the most mobile, and can do its job the fastest , dum dum dum… easier to balance all classes.

TLDR: (Closing)
So again i ask , where are we balanced around? Because if its not around 1v1, then i dont see how this meta game can work without other classes outshining each other in GW2 developers choice mode battleground and Meta concept design.

Gear stat increase, lack of content for the PVP and spvp side. Balancing issues not being priority, but wasted manpower on more pve content.

Is noone shocked that there is a new tier just 3 MONTHS into the game?

Take the focus off PVE and put it into FUN pvp plz, heck maybe try to involve pve dungeons through pvp, so the server can actually unite together. If you want new dungeons, make it like a daoc darkness falls for epic monsters and gear skins, that are only unlocked through control in WvWvW …

Agree with fellknight on not derailing topic please

He truly hit the nail on the head of the Community of most PvP games is driven by competitve SOLO players. A game must tailor to the solo player before a group. Not being able to log on and just pvp competitively , is pretty much the biggest reason GW2 pvp is not well receive.

But what is competitively solo play? Most games have it naturally, by a gear ranking or like WoW Arena personal rating. The simple rule is that when a solo player spends the long hours and pvp’s in your game, he must be able to also play all aspects of your game and be able to receive all aspects of your reward too. GW2, punishes the solo player who wants to log on, wants to hop into pvp and have fun, but also wants to achieve.

Simply put, the dev. team for game design on spvp is very badly designed as it prevents all solo players from being able to reach any level of competition in skill, and in rewards.

Daoc, try it again really. They decided to make the leveling process, 3 repeatable quest in their battlegrounds , so you literally pvp from level 1-50 . 50 though is another story, so you can stop at 49 Battleground .

try it with a sceptor on guardian, biggest epic fail in the history of MMO’s to date.

Its so funny, that a game called Guild wars , which one follows a fantastic pvp predecessor , with innovative gvg match making , and battleground matchs up (god i miss those 8 v 8 v 8 v 8 v8 v8s…) , has no true form of Guild warring LOL

WvW is good clean fun, but because of the rally system, we are pigeon holed into zerging , but where the meat for serious pvp-ers are, which is in small scale organized combat , GW2 has totally failed . Its like gw2 is a pve game.

Also when people say paid tournaments, yes thats all fun and dandy if it actually means something. There is no recognition , no incentive, and worst yet, no actually Guild v Guild to the death with skills, because Conquest meta- is build for who can cap first and has more bunker wins . le-sigh

As much as i see the argument, though stupid in my humble opinion, of down state the balance for burst builds, there is a clear cut problem which the OP has pointed out:

It is agreed in every poll , guru, ign , anecdotal, wvw chat, gvg chat, my lost brothers from a different mothers hearsay ……. Down state is NOT fun.

Nothing to do with imbalance or balance, or another feature, but unfortunately, its just not fun. And you know what they say about thing that are not fun, dont play it. If arena.net cant see that there is a single abhorrent aspect of their game that is not fun , and do nothing to correct it then , from a business point of view, some mandatory board meeting and change of CEO’s is in order.

Here’s the other kicker, its not down state abilities that piss most people off, its the rally system, food for thought.

When i log on , sometimes i have friends online, sometimes there are none, but my objective is clear, i just want to roam and pvp. But i cant, here’s why.

Roaming solo or small man requires a few things :

A killing field area> a good roamer, always has a few spots that are his terrority he will camp , constantly running round and round the map never nets positive results for kill to death ratio due to high exposure to unfamiliar territory, and ganking from zergs.

A low time to kill (decent to high dps builds) that ensure you dont get add-ed upon.

A high level of obscurity>> areas that arent high in traffic , and has terrain that can hide me (bridges/bushes/ditches/water etc) ; or a build/class that grants me obscurity, thieves ,small character scales , mesmers.

Movement speed > always have your horn/staff/shortbow ,whatever that lets you get in and out of combat.

And most importantly , the ability to utilize tactics to constantly deal with greater odds , as this is guerilla warfare, never expect a fair fight.

Problems with gw2 roaming (non biased, just observations)

The map layout is situated to always have a funnel of players streaming through due to the many amount of cap points, meaning a spot that might offer good obscurity for a while, will not be that way >>> cancels out being able to have a designated area for small man roamers.

The rally system. Down system is fine, though it elongates time to kill that is perfectly ok, as you can still build to burst , but the rally system, means you may kill him, and he gets rallied and your time to kill goes OUT OF WACK , this essentially makes it very hard to not get added upon.

Im a visible , i expect to not have as high survivability as a stealth type , when roaming , but once again, the terrain pathing for locating a fixed killing field , makes me move. I will never be found again by my top returning customers for another encounter* which destroys any form of reputation building , or said bragging rights .

GW2, pvp punishes all forms of smart tactics , except zerging . This is also another unfortunate side effect of the rally system. As a solo guardian, my record on chain fights within less than 5 seconds of each other is 13 in a row ! My record of 1v x fights , is 1v3 , and i had a 20 second jump on them as they were fighting an event mob , i downed 2 , was on the third , DOWNED the third with event mob helping, and they pelted me to downed. The event mob died through conditions, we all rallied, and i died subsequently 1v3. I cried.

Oh i hate you rally system. But more importantly. I just want to roam! Stop punishing me in all ways possible gw2!

Kazzuki -RR8 daoc ranger/hero/valewaker/zerker/heretic .. solo roamed all the way.

Dragon nest , korean made. Now with new guild wars system. Better evade system, more innovative classes , more pvp types , no WvWvW though . Also a ladder 1v1 . Also has no holy trinity, no monthly subscription , and has a seperate Oceania server.

That and daoc still has better pvp lol . Rally system for the lose, down state is fine.

Oh forgot to also add that Dragonnest uses a new style fps cursor targeting combo style , for your auto attack , basically what that means is your character hits where you akittengeting with your mouse, and the longer you are able to track your enemy, the higher the chance you can chain utility abilities to combo hit. Basically if you ever want to experience the highest end of Mmo pvp , whereby you are required to look at your enemy to evade attacks , this is it .

American clone of it is called vindictus which unfortunately flopped due to bad game hosting.

above is a video of Korea vs china in esport 1v1 ladder tournament . The game is balanced around a strict 1v1 system that scales upwards so 2v2,3v3… to 8v8 is all balance as user skill is tied directly to the combo system(aka your tracking ability) . Fyi for casuals, there is an enhance ai smart aim so you dont miss like a clown but when you try to go for long combos without practice .. that takes weeks to master.

Oh and below is their Guild wars trailer.. with mounts.

People need to play dragonnest. Designed by Koreans , 1v1 ladder in your face, 2v2,3v3…all the way to 8v8 . King of the hill, tdm and some other kill point system pvp.. TBH i thought gw2 would be like that. Heck dragonnest even has a better evade system.

In a nutshell, fellknight actually speaks the truth for alot of the Western/european games , who utilize the somewhat carrot on the stick , less work , easier rewards system to get quick on demand profits. A.k.a. a dry-er game. In the olden days , when a game advertised itself as a PVP game , actually only one primary major big one as far as i know which is Dark ages of camelot , it actually guaranteed pvp as its central focus

i will give you one big evidence in your face slap about pvp not being the centric aim of gw2 development team, or the dev team who designs the pvp structure is the son of the president of the company .. and that reason is .. the rally System. No pvp focused game in the history of games or combat or fps or Moba , rewards being aggressive and failure to utilize tactics as much as gw2’s rally system .

Down state is fine, rally system is like telling players, we are a pvp game , but we arent really serious about creative pvp that focuses on balance , we just want people to zerg and be merry like happy smurfs with no worry about dying cause it really is hard to die in a zerg when u can get rallied off anything walking . My record for rally in a big fight was 18 times , how about you?

I believe what most of you guys fail to see in the OP is that , the rally system is borked and leads to dull and biased results . It is impossible to fight with fair odds in wvw, the rally system resulting from downed state gives overwhelming advantage to whoever has more as it completely favors a no brain zerg mentality. When you permit people to never take a defensive stance when *losing , because u know as long as i kill someone 7 of my downed teammates will rez , all planning goes out the window.

Downed state is never the problem.. Rally system is .

Once again i would like to point out, downed state whether it may be double edged, an incentive to not play burst etc etc is not the true purpose of downed state. Its main aim is to elongate time to kill. It is actually shocking to consider that a lengthened time to kill equates to fun but thats the stance Anet is taking really , with that burst builds being somewhat hampered by downed state is merely an adverse cause and effect of this elongation of time to kill.

One should always work within the premise of the game structure, therefore complaints about Burst being ineffective due to downed state and should be nerfed(the downed state), then you are just being belligerent; worst you do not understand the fundamental meaning of playing Arena.net’s Game. Its like saying u want to dribble with your hands in a football game because you have better coordination with your hands…

very well said aydeunited , its very tough when the general public feels there is something wrong but cannot pinpoint it, then point at the wrong thing , say thats at fault and worst the powers that be listen to it .

Thank you for the replies. Ouch i guess the forums must have been filled with hate post lately cause the replies seem to be stemming from a plethora of previous disgruntlement when approaching the discussion.

This post is not a point of view but a point out really, and i think colton has spoken very well and fair about the cause and effects of the current meta , albeit a large amount of hopefulness from the devs.

BUT , you miss the point, the aim of the post is to point out what currently is , and not what will/might be. I am just stating the game methodology as it is right now.

Infering that i am displeased with the game is childish and out of context (and actually i am not , i just play the game as is given to me) but what im understanding from multiple guild forums/this forum/guru forum, is that MANY people are upset but most dont know why exactly.

Also regarding the post from dorregray , regarding 1 should never beat 2 . The issue is that words are sometimes inadequate to paint the full picture, when a player uses skill/wit/tactics to engage an enemy or a group of enemy , the measure of success should be based on the proficiency he utilizes his plan , and the end result should be the measure. The issue with gw2 Rally system (notice i do not say down system because down system is not the fault, rally system is) , is that the enemy will never have to be put in a defensive tactical disadvantage and maintain aggression at all times. In broad strokes, the meta becomes stale , and worst, prevents players from appreciating revolutionary tactics and tricks that should have effectively worked. Meaning a kittenty game to watch. Think of the implications in viewer numbers> esport.

By understanding and coping with the game methodology, you too can be a pro!

Facts:
In conquest mode, bunkers are gods , balance are subpar, burst is effective .

When roaming , because of downed system, do not expect to win an imbalance conflict because of the Rally system , meaning 1v2 or 2v3, even if u have skill, due to down system>rally mechanic, you will always be heavily disadvantage.

Burst works for those who are keen for action and roaming as it is the only way to counter the TTK (time to kill) of down state.

Balance builds totally fail if you are looking at both ends of the spectrum, casual and tournament as it incredibly hampered by the natural gaming pvp mechanics of gw2 setup.

GW2 has implemented downed state, not as a new fun mechanic as people like to think, but actually a direct elongation of time to kill per fight. Meaning no fight will be less than 10 seconds as this makes it feel less fps and more MMO. This also is a direct counter to extremely high burst builds as it is perceived as imbalance even though the direct opposite is not frowned upon (bunker).

What this means to you ? If you want to succeed in GW2 pvp, be a bunker or a burst class , and play like GW2 wants you to be. If you build to be balanced , both sides of the spectrum will chew you apart due to not only your lack of tools to circumvent their game design (rally system mechanic) and also their choice of playing field (Conquest Mode).

Also means their pvp dev. team is gonna fail at making gw2 an esport but thats for another discussion that focuses on when balance build is not priority in a pvp game.

TLDR: Be a bunker or a burst, be in-between and you will be hampering your team even if you think you are doing well.

LoL , this whole post reminds me of the time of miyamoto musashi , when dualwielding was considered fallacy and the proper way was to wield one long sword with 2 hands, and use your short sword as a back up.

Miyamoto musashi went," yea you guys do that , im just gonna use whatever is in my arsenal to pwn you" and soon developed the ni tou ichi ryu , a.k.a. the dual wield sword style.

Same can be said about the “save yourself” skill , people identified its strength, and instead of using it like a condition draw magnet for support, used it for a buff tool in fights . The main aim is to win and thats what they did . But GOD went , stop using your brains !!! i want it this way only ! nerf nerf nerf! One can only realise why the poeple are so up in arms for using their brains..

yes, down state is balanced, bar some uniformity in the abilities (ie ele’s).. RALLY is not.

Rally system promotes unimaginable consequences to the field of balance in terms of meta tactics, it is actually the reason why players feel down state is imbalanced in the first place though due to the inconsistencies of abilities during down state, most casual players get the perception of what is unfair, wrong.

Rally system means simply, that by not actively doing anything “different” for my fallen teammate, i can still help him. If we look at it in terms of aggresive or defensive tactics: Rally allows a team to consistently be aggressive without worrying about the consequences. Its like saying we can still continue to focus burst a target , and save our teammate without actually physically rezzing /protecting from stomping / combo curing … etc etc

This lack of consequences is what makes 1v2 very tough , because the 2nd player has an overwhelming advantage from his ally even down-ed, a piece of mind that he can still be aggressive and his player will magically stay alive .. bar distance as long as the downed player has tagged the enemy . Too complicated? it basically means , haha dont worry about healing fallen player, just pelt stones and give me 5k more damage in 10 seconds, which is on average 25-30% a players hp, while u have already lost 95% of all your abilities .. and get ready to be saved by god when ive killed one of their teammates.

The more imbalanced the downstate abilities are.. the more ruthless the rally system becomes. This is also why people complain about mesmers and thieves abilities the most, not because they are special in some way or another, but it ultimately lets teammates do whatever they want for the LONGEST time, before they get rallied.

Rally system means MINIMAL defensive meta play and rewards, attack attack attackkkkkkk mentality. AKA .. skill-less dry, horrible pvp groundwork.

LoL , people forget that the biggest thrill of pvp is to outplay your opponent. fullstop. Down sytem is fine but the direct link , RALLY system is not . You cannot have a system in place whereby there is no null effect for not actively doing anything different but bash the enemy, and your teammates will resurrect.

This also thus lead to never being able bask in the joy of out skilling with tactics as no matter what you do ,you will face a break wall when fighting different odds. Its like a bunch of friends say 5v5 are playing , and one of their teammates gets downed by your team. All of a sudden , god comes into play and says, wait u are not dead, you are just downed… ok … then god says.. carry on people just kill one of theirs and ill magically resurrect him, dont worry about bandaging him or anything, CONTINUE!!!

erm… ITS CONQUEST, what did you expect lol. If you played in a TDM format, you would have an even spread, possibly more biased to high dps builds, but at least a larger spread of builds.

The fact that arena.net chooses conquest mode to be the end all for spvp, means that when the casual players catch up with the meta-game of pros, which is currently happening fast as spvp is indeed dry, the optimum build to maintain/hold/cap points are bunkers.

People still dont understand. The downstate is part of the game , imbalanced as it is, the issue of not winning 1v2 or x versus y , is ….. the RALLY SYSTEM.

If you can get ure teammate up without having to physically rez (2.8 second rez time to full vs 3 second stomp time imbalances not included***) , means that even if one of ure teammate is down, the game allows you to still keep going at zero cost for defense.

Consequences is what fighting is about , GW2 is like having a UFC championship, but if the opponent breaks ure arm, u can call a time out for a doctor to morphine numb u and keep fighting…. for free. ZERO consequence.

Also conquest mode is for carebears, please bring back PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER.. or at least that option.

Diage, i understand where you are coming from , but I cannot agree that if you feel the notion of passively being able to resurrect teammates without direct action , without an opposing reaction .. is balance . And, if this viewed is shared by the creators , then the stance of which guild wars 2 development team means to take is already biased.

If we dont draw it in the context of fighting, lets say a team game of dodgeball , but say if a member gets hit, he goes into a penalty game not dead and requires another ball hit to be out. All is fair so far. Heres the kicker , if at ANY point any member of the opposing team is out , everyone in the penalty box is saved. But on the contrary, if you penalty box the whole of the enemy team already , but the people from the penalty box are still shooting one of your team and successfully double out him, your entire team revives. At NO punishing cost. Food for thought.

I did not mean to bring in WvW , but as firm believer of “perceived balance”, i feel it is stupid to be selective of where the pvp lies and not the whole picture. We play Guild wars 2, not guild wars spvp. 5v5 also happens in WvW… so does capping points.

If you are feeling an adrenaline rush because u downed the enemy, you should feel demoralize as more and more of your teammates are being downed no? By argueing only about blaring imbalances of downed state , or introducing flimsy only one person gets rallied(how do they even choose? /random100? oh u died first? wait your the team leader? if your bunker spec u rez first? no you have the most points so far, you rez first…etc), how do you then draw your conclusion to a plausible fix .

Introducing Balance, one needs to also enter it in a way that does not belay the current meta game format system, and makes plausible sense to the community. That is also why balancing is tricky, and most developers take the easy way out like whackamole nerfing. I believe a company like arenanet who takes time to even have extremely beautiful sky textures, understands this , but unfortunately it can be clearly seen that there is some level of pride at hand in the baby called downed state.

It is often the voice of the community that muscles the upper brass of a company to make changes, albeit rudely , but sometimes i feel a clear pointed debate with distinct points can spin some amazing ideas that may be taken and created into something tangible for everyone.

Diage if your baseline is to write me off, to tell me go to another forum, then do not reply more , for i am not here to force points but am trying hard to create a rich post of viewpoints from the community that one day might affect the game we all play and love, guild wars 2. But i feel you are one of the few that truly understand that there is something wrong with the rallying in pvp, and i respect that truly. What can we do to help arenanet , my friends?!

Does it not feel ironic that you can make a decision to not help a teammate that has been downed, yet he can magically resurrect? Yet there is no reverse action that causes him to die ?

Rally system is the direct cause why many fights in WvW results in a disgusting mass zerg affair which prevents smaller groups from roaming , simply because one cannot overcome the blaring disadvantage of a system that gives absolute advantage to zerging.

Zachariel, like you understand downed state when faced against a coordinated team , can utilize stability, and other forms of tactics to counter certain issues.

Here is some food for thought , these issues would NOT exist if downed state is not even present.

You cannot play rock paper scissors and say ok no paper , and you play on team rock . The scissors will start whining..

Remember guys, downed state, fine or not, ultimately is not our decision to have keep or gone. It is truly innovative, albeit broken.

The issue like some of you actually realize is the combination of a broken down state AND more importantly RALLY , that is what we as a community need to draw the dev’s attention too !

The masses fight about the pros and cons of downed system, when what should be talked about is what the Downed state truly affects, the Rally system.

It is without a resounding doubt that most players are unable to swallow the hard pill called the downed state. A loud cry from most of the community beg for it to be removed, the other applaud its extremely innovative and fresh breath it has done to the online world of PVP. I respect both parties. This is not my game, i just play it.

However lets analyze some facts about downed state:

Downed state player has ability skill set different from players build and classes.
(e.g. Player has no utility knockback in skill slots but when downed, he has one ;
If one class utility (number 2 downed) is single target, and another is aoe.. it is imbalanced. enough said. If a mesmer can stealth and create a clone and blink in one ability, but a thief can only blink … it is imbalanced. enough said. if a necro has single target fear but a guard…… if an elementalist has no…. )

Downed state player hp is normalized and different from players build
(E.g. warrior hundred blades 3 second downs a player from 100% to downed. Warrior hundred blades again (hypothetically , ignore the 8 sec. cd) downed state glass cannon enemy, drops from 100% to 50 % … warrior scratches head wondering why it takes longer to kill an enemy in downed state than in up state)

The above examples , are NOT important but identify one thing, downed state is imbalanced. But here is whats the saddest part, it detracts the biggest issue of spvp, and wvw… Players are being RALLIED in your down state system.

You cannot introduce rally, without a counter , yes the fight is not over if he is downed, but amazingly, he can also be brought back to life WITHOUT rezzing. wait what?!

Biggest cause and effect this brings is : Proper tournament / wvw organized pvp team play is inhibited . (e.g. a smaller team that is more organized cannot circumvent a larger group even though utilizing better tactics. simple scenario, 3 v 5 , 3 players down 3 , going for last 2, one of their teammates drop, and gets pelted by 3 downed foes , enemy rallies, fight becomes 2 v 5) You cannot stomp because, of down state abilities, enemy kback or boon stripping your stability, their bodies are too far apart, etc etc.

The downed state is imbalanced yes, but your rally system, the direct result of downed state, is inhibiting competitive Player vs Player.

You have to introduce the demoralize system , a direct response to your rally system. Its effect is this. If in 1v1, no change, you drop to zero you are downed. In larger numbers, subsequent “down” beyond number 1, triggers the demoralize system for your team resulting into instant death to downed state member.

Example: 5v5, (team A vs Team , TeamA downs 1 member of TeamB , 5v4 (+1 downstate) , Team A downs 2nd member of Team B , 5v3) demoralize system kicks in, 1st down state player is immediately killed . (5v3 +1 downed state, 1 already dead)

Second effect of demoralize system: ALL downed ability 2 from every class is REPLACED with " Hopeful Rally" ability. 15 second cd, able to be used immediately on down , 3 second non- interruptible channeling ability. If teammate is downed during hopeful rally, you are not instantly killed.

Finally downed state players are no longer just mashing buttons or interrupting fools, but have to ACTIVELY watch the fight progression and ACTIVELY defend themselves for a rally, instead of praying for someone to be killed fully.

For PVE , it can be identical. Stop abusing players who kill themselves just to heal up again, and teach players to actively channel abilities to keep themselves alive in downed state , instead of just spamming 1 while monsters are hitting teammates.

TLDR: downed state imbalances is not the MAIN issue , Rally system is. Demoralize system is actually a Rally system that works backwards for the aggression team. Down State System is a TRULY amazing and innovative breath of fresh air.