Guild Wars 2

So, consider this topic closed until a moderator does it officially. This is my last hurrah and you can all thank the players that have sent me abusive in-game mail from a forum open to expression and freedom of all ideas to discuss the game and ways to improve it.

A shame players will stoop to that level but oh well there you have it.

sirflamesword.3896:

Myth Shaia.4856:

Annnnnnnnnnnd your post is irrelevant and pointless.

Just like this whole thread. This idea has come up multiple times and has multiple threads about it, one of which I’m pretty sure is on the front page. This thread should be deleted/merged.

If you bothered to read the whole thread, perhaps you might actually contribute something useful. This thread is about a possible solution to create even server population match-ups.

If as you say this thread and idea has come up multiple times before, it does not mean you are to judge what is meaningless or should be deleted/merged. This is the domain of forum moderators to decide and until then if you have nothing useful to contribute, why bother coming into the thread at all? Nothing else to do, bored of WvWvW already?

phys.7689:

By your responses to the last guy, you would still have the same battle imbalances, because the pugs will log off after getting rolled.

Truth is for WvW to work it kind of needs organisation and some permanance. Servers arent arbitray in WvW, they essentially save your teams progress, which allows you to actually be a team

I think your aim isnt really the best, because you are focusing on even numbers by any means, when probably a better solution would be one that tracks and matches groups based more on their populations than their ratings.

I think for WvW to succeed it needs to better define its servers and better regulate them. WvW teams need to get more information and more classification. Now that servers are only really going to be about WvW, anet can make some progress on this front.

You would have still have total server population imbalances. The battles themselves would not be unbalanced, you would have a battle between 3 equally numbered armies.

sirflamesword.3896:

Myth Shaia.4856:

To be fair, yes there will be a skill level discrepancy and more than likely simply because these lower tiered server/guilds have not had exposure….don’t forget, we were all noobs at one time or another.

Annnnnnnnnnnd you lost all credibility.

Annnnnnnnnnnd your post is irrelevant and pointless.

Zikory.6871:

So to the OP, your suggestion is to completely revamp the WvW system to remove server identity and create a more “equal playing field”? A couple of questions though since you seem to be so defensive…

Uhm, no. Nowhere do I say to remove server identity – I mention that it is pretty much irrelevant as it is just something to identify with (it could be an alliance, it could be a faction, etc) and players are more than happy to go stack where they will get the most benefit for themselves and/or where all their friends are.

Defensive? Hmm, have you read the whole thread?

Don’t misinterpret “equal playing field” – your words not mine. What I am proposing is a solution to imbalanced server population match-ups, nothing else.

Zikory.6871:

What happens if this plan fails? With WvW and Gw2 bleeding players, what happens if this back fires and even more people leave the game? Would a drastic change be worth it?

Then nothing would have prevented the inevitable… ANet obviously feels some form of change is worth it, just by introducing EotM to address server queue issues for some players. And I use change here as meaning a new aspect to the game, not meaning that EotM is a change to WvWvW.

Zikory.6871:

What happens when say KnT (my guild) queues up with 80 guild members (S2 first resets turn out) and gets put up against and non guilded pug group? What if due to random placement the other “color” doesn’t get some one willing to tag up? Or some one does tag up but is less familiar with the Tier 1 meta that we are going to bring?

Who says your T1 meta is going to be a valid combat method? The major thing is that you will be up against even numbers, whether you roflstomp them or not will depend on whether it is appropriate to simply blob your way to victory or not. As it will be a different battle system, it will have one would think, different objectives to what everyone is accustomed to in WvWvW. It may have similar ones. All I am suggesting is a possible solution for an even numbered match-up. A new detailed mass PVP battle solution would simply need more than a topic post

Zikory.6871:

Should other guilds from lower tiers be forced (randomly) to fight higher tier guilds? (to clarify, I’m not talking about skill, I’m referring to sheer numbers.) I understand that there is a cap and the system would fill that cap but if a guilded group of 20-25 gets in a match with a guilded group of 50+, would that be fun for every one?

Each battle area/arena/color has a population limit. The battle commences once even numbers between the battle areas/arenas has been detected. Players/guilds/squads can still be assigned into the battle until the population cap is met. Added to that, just like EotM, more instances can be opened up.

To be fair, yes there will be a skill level discrepancy and more than likely simply because these lower tiered server/guilds have not had exposure….don’t forget, we were all noobs at one time or another.

Zikory.6871:

And lastly what makes you think a change like this would be in the best interests of anet? Do you think the time and man power to make such a drastic change would be more profitable for them in the long run? Also do you think it’s enough to keep players in WvW and maybe even bring some back to the game?

They spent enough time on EotM and the Living World story. Players want to be stimulated, kept interested. WvW is stale right now. It needs a shot in the arm. I cannot say that this is what it needs, it is only an idea to create even server population match ups. At the end of the day, players will stay for some form of PVP – as long as they get something equal to the effort they put into it (rewards are purely subjective) – whether they do it in a relaxed or intense fashion.

Whether this will stop players from leaving, I am not psychic but I do believe in minimizing damage. And having come from GW1, I can tell you that after everyone was done with the storyline, many many still stayed on to play GVG, HoH, AB and FA & JQ, not to mention RA and TA – all pvp based from relaxed mode to serious organised mode.

Honest questions…

Further to this though, server size will only matter where you can field numerous large squads over multiple battle areas/arenas – and am sure that code could be put in place to keep same-server groups from playing against each other although that could be interesting too. And where you have multiple server squads all succeeding in achieving whatever point system is put in place, at the end of the season there would still be a server ladder ranking system and bragging rights.

The solution proposed is to find a method of balance population server match ups, not to merge servers, not to destroy server identity which everyone says is so important to them.

Ljiona.9142:

MMOers are concerned with fair. In fact, they are the opposite. They want to be a higher level, have better equipment, more coverage, OP classes, etc. They don’t want equal. Let’s face it, half of them would not be very good if that was the case. If Anet made it even, suicide rates would go up as MMOer learn that only do they lose at life, they can’t even win at a video game.

Ahahaha, that is a funny post, I mean that – oh wait can I say that?

Adahilia.3678:

Actually your opening post said it in a nutshell, was about guilds/friends, you didn’t change it until you started getting feedback from those that were opposed to the idea of not being able to play with server mates. From a reply you made on the first page I believe indicated that you are not on a low tier server, yet you want to force your imposed balance upon people who don’t want it. Between this tread and the other that is also being upped much by you, I believe there are a few from those low tier servers that you want to balance that have said as much. They like the low population and would probably no longer want to play the game if the server became more populated.

It very much reminds me of the scene from Rush Hour between Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan, where Tucker says, “Do you understand the words coming out of my mouth?”?

The majority of people who have replied to this tread and the other that is going about say, no they do not want a merge, no they want to keep what they have as far as community, server, etc, etc., yet you continue to pound away at it. As I stated earlier I wish you luck in your lobbying. I feel any further response on my part will continue to deteriorate, as you don’t seem to hear what it is that people have been telling you all day.

Aha, so in as much as you assume I don’t care about community by using guilds/friends initially, I will assume that people understand that guilds and friends are usually on the same server as yourself. And how is it wrong to amend an initial suggestion to better reflect replies to a topic question? Further, in what way does that even infer that I don’t care about community?

[quote=3877000;Adahilia.3678:][quote=3877000;Adahilia.3678:]

style.6173:

@OP:

I pretty much disagree with all your points.

EotM: That exists for the reason you mentioned. It also gives more casual people a place to go and karma train and maybe get in a few fights.
WvW High Tier: This allows large zerg battles. For those who love seeing clashes of 40v40, this is the place to be.
WvW Lower Tier: Smaller scale fights or more guild only fights.

There is already something for everyone.

EotM: casual players….do you even know how much time some players spend in this place? Are they still ‘casual’ players just because they don’t WvWvW? Oh the arrogance. How do you measure casual? The person who doesn’t want to do WvWvW because everywhere his server goes that match-up they are outnumbered 4:1 or more? So instead they go into EotM where they might get a more even match-up?

WvW High Tier: seen enough large zerg battles in both EotM and in lower tiered WvW servers.

The issue at hand here is that of imbalanced population match-ups. Nothing you point out addresses this issue.

Srolo.5208:

lol…oh man…..What’s a “blob” on a low tier, low population server? 20 people? Also, what the kitten does Anet have to do, come knock on your door, ask you out to coffee and then sit down and tell you exactly what you need to do to build community? There are no “tools” needed to build community. It’s called not being a pompous kitten and working with other people on your server. Coordinating with them, inviting new people join and play with you, and stepping up to the plate when the time comes. You’re so blinded by being spoonfed and having your hand held with every little thing that you can’t even coordinate and play nice with others, no wonder you can’t build a community with those social skills. This thread is laughable. Seriously this time, I’m done. I’m going to go enjoy my well populated server, with a strong community with a shared focus and goals. Enjoy kittening just to kitten.

Oooh, less assumptions this time, but more insults. As it appears, a person on a high population server just cannot relate to what is going with the low populated servers or doesn’t care – or may be it is just this player and doesn’t reflect the indifference of what is happening to the game.

Assumptions that low populated server players want to be spoon fed and have hands held and cannot coordinate anything and lack social skills…wow

You don’t know what a blob is? Come on, be brave, transfer to a lower population server, come find out, come experience it first hand…

Srolo.5208:

Low tier servers will always have a greater discrepancy solely for the fact that their numbers are already low. There is no way to change that without either merging servers or creating an EOTM style WvW system which none of us want and isn’t going to happen anyways. Unless you can think of a way to incentivize an influx of people going to low tier servers this isn’t going to change. 0 gem cost to transfer to low tier servers isn’t going to break up the top servers because the WvW is good there. Once you do that however those that are on low tier servers specifically for the reason that there’s less people will complain. The higher you go in rankings the better and more fair the matches are. Currently things were thrown askew for season 2 with allowing server transfers when servers were already locked in their league. That’s the issue here but there’s nothing that can be done about that or evening out the population and going back to “normal” until the season is over.

Your statement that WvW is good in the top servers is a matter of opinion. I suppose same blobs vs same blobs week in and week out is good. WvW in the top servers is stale.

A new system where every player in the GW2 population can play with or against every other player will create a far more dynamic and balanced coverage system than what WvW currently is, outside of the top 3 highly over-populated coverage servers.

The changes I suggest allow you as a guild, even as a server to play together still but not necessarily against the same weekly opposition but still against an equal number of opponents. It means you will meet players from different servers to fight against, with different play styles. You can still grow your server, your community, it just means that no-one server is going to be able to steamroll opposition. Essentially the top 3 servers are an imperfect model of what WvW should be. There is no weekly disparity of 200000 points between servers. The score is close because of almost equal coverage. And this is probably why so many T1 players don’t want a change. They know they have it good, but they also have the queues, skill lag, and stale blobbing.

Adahilia.3678:

Actually it really isn’t as much as issue this time around for transfers mid season, since you get locked out of world for the remainder of the current match and the subsequent match.

As for those that are looking for more “balanced” matches, you too have a transfer button and also have the option to use it. Since you claim that community doesn’t mean much to you, it shouldn’t be a problem yes?

Think the reward system has been changed for this season…“Your rewarding server will now be the server that you put the most time and effort into.” ~ Devon in an interview. Considering that the season is now 9 weeks long, the week lockout and subsequent match lockout is not as impactful as it could be.

Where is this claim that community doesn’t mean much? If it didn’t mean so much to me for example, do you think I would be here with this topic trying to propose changes that might resolve population imbalances so that low population servers and their communities won’t have to transfer into larger servers just to get to even play a decent WvW match-up?

Srolo.5208:

Balance will never be there because of the varying degree of armor/weapon/trinket set ups with runes/sigils as well as trait point allocations. The only way to get balance would be to give everybody the same number of each class with the same gear and trait allocations for those classes. Even then there would still be kittening because of player skill becoming a factor. The side with less skill and teamwork due to varying personalities and differences of views and opinions would be the deciding factor, not to mention the resolve each side has. Then the people on the server who can’t work together as well as the other one would kitten that something else isn’t fair and the cycle continues.

The idea proposed at the very beginning has nothing to do with gear in any way. The idea proposes to address coverage issues over a 24 hour period.

A server with low population coverage issues is basically being forced to watch their hard work go to waste during hours they have no coverage vs a 24 hour coverage server(s). You are also assuming that players won’t choose to do what they like but if I see 2-3 players already escorting a yak, I am not going to stay there, if all camps and towers have enough players in them to defend successfully I will go where I am needed next. You go where you can be of use to your server – that is part of server pride and community that so many have blasted me with.

Srolo.5208:

In an ideal scenario everybody would have equal numbers doing everything the other server(s) is/are, however this is not how it works in practice and will never work that way. Just because you may have even numbers on the map doesn’t mean that there will still be any semblance of an even fight. There will always be uneven fights with one side having the advantage.

Thing is, even if the fight is uneven between the groups that meet, the larger group now has more players committed to that battle meaning the server with the smaller group committed to the battle has more players capping the exposed gaps. However, the larger group is not a blob roflstomping the smaller group, it is a much closer battle that can be won by the smaller group if it has better skill. Now the rewarding factor is not imbalanced population coverage – which is a silly thing to reward – but actual skill.

Srolo.5208:

If you’re on a low tier server with low population and no organization and the people have a general apathy about winning or WvW in general you’re not going to get anything accomplished. Either step up and spend the time trying to build the community and get it working well or find a different server that suits you better.

Did you even bother to consider why there is a general apathy about WvW on lower populated servers? Because they get blobbed! Hallooooo, this what the whole point of this topic is, to resolve imbalance population WvW match-ups with a better system that won’t result in more lower tiered servers popping up and others just disappearing. And how do you propose lower tiered server step up and build a community that lacks players? What do they have to attract them? Nothing, only when ANet offers a free transfer which will guarantee a league season win do players move. Server pride and community has nothing to do with that.

Srolo.5208:

There’s plenty of people across all leagues that are happy where they’re at and are content with how things perform. It’s the extremely vocal minority that like to go on about how they can’t win and it’s not fair and everything needs to change to give them the best shot possible, yet they’re afforded the same possibilities that the rest of us are. The difference is what you do with it and they typically just don’t want to spend the time and effort putting things together and bettering themselves or the community they play with and would rather complain on the forums about how it’s not fair because it’s the easy thing to do.

Again with the assumptions; you assume they don’t want to do anything about it? You assume they don’t want to spend the time and effort putting things together?You assume they don’t want to better themselves as a community? Do you realize that ANet has not given them any way to make these changes? And your answer to this is for them to leave and join another server thus destroying the small community they do have?

I would suggest the “vocal minority” are in fact the well balanced populated servers that have very little to worry about.

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

did OP respond to every single post in here yet!?

i say we vote him for anet community person!!!

The answer is….no I don’t think so. And as to your vote, you must be nuts! I enjoy collecting infractions.

TBH I try to reply to posts here that are trying to give a meaningful response to the topic question. It’s the best way to create a dialogue about an issue which is important to many players, both for a change and those against a change. Whilst I appreciate a good worded post/reply as to why it shouldn’t change, most of those replies have been largely passive aggressive in nature with their assumptions and suggestions. But oh well, people are people.

Srolo.5208:

Why are you so intent on forcing balanced matchups? WvW or any mass PvP/RvR is not centered or focused around and will never have truly balanced forces going against each other. You even just stated arenas, which WvW is not. That is entirely what SPvP is. Balanced matchups in arenas. WvW/RvR in games isn’t fair, and it will never be fair. If you can’t stomach uneven numbers, gear discrepancies or anything like that then these systems of mass PvP/RvR/WvW or whatever you want to call it aren’t for you. I’m done with responding anymore because I honestly believe you just can’t grasp the WvW concept and what keeps those of us that have been doing it since day 1 continue to play it.

I use the term arena for lack of a better term and to illustrate that, I don’t use arena on it’s own. What is WvWvW but a large scale arena/area/battle?

Why are you so focused on keeping unbalanced match-ups? Only way you can win?

Why are you so sure that any mass PVP cannot/should not be focused or centered around truly balanced forces going against each other?

sPvP has its own balance issues and doesn’t compare to the issue at hand with WvWvW – your point is moot.

This description of WvWvW:

uneven numbers, gear discrepancies or anything like that then these systems of mass PvP/RvR/WvW or whatever you want to call it aren’t for you.

I’m sorry, where does the term/concept of mass PvP/RvR/WvW imply unbalanced match-ups? Your description implies something broken, unbalanced, incomplete.

Srolo.5208:

I honestly believe you just can’t grasp the WvW concept and what keeps those of us that have been doing it since day 1 continue to play it.

Aww, another assumption, I wonder what else you believe honestly…

Have you even realised that there are fewer and fewer

of us that have been doing it since day 1

or should I assume you are on a large populated server made up of many players that have left low population servers to get on the ‘winning’ side/looking for better match-ups?

Xillllix.3485:

If you divide 10,000 by 990,000 you get 0.010101010101010101010101010101

148,5 more years if you started 18 months ago…

Ho boy! That’s a mean binary notation you have going there _

A further idea to keep server pride alive, much as Guild representation works at the moment, as long as you are representing your server in any battle, your server gets points for your actions and achievements. You could have a league season like now, but there would be competitive balanced match-ups and regardless of which battle area/arena you play in, as long as you have your server representation active, your server is gaining points. You could have a longterm goal with a decent/useful reward and at the same time the standard current tower/keep reward system.

To those that will bring up wanting to play with server friends and guild mates, read the other replies on the 1st page that makes some suggestions about being able to do just that.

The Skype thing is weird…

I fixed my GW2 crashing problems a while back by making sure that my ram frequency setting in the bios was set to 1600mhz and not 1333mhz, which many bios do by default even if you have 1600mhz ram.

…hmm, although having the Skype thing in the background may well do something with the ram somehow…

Stupid thing to check, had horrible effects in Grid 2 until I turned off the Vertical Sync settings in the game.

Adahilia.3678:

I play for fights and to play with the people I choose to play with as do many others. Not all of those people are in my guild, nor are they all on my friends list, but they are on my server; according to your proposed changes I would not be able to do that. It also removes any identifying factors for servers and guilds and mainly focuses on the individual. Many people like to feel that they are a part of something and like to be recognized for the things that they do. What you propose seems very short sighted on how people work and what they want in regards to community and seems to focus more on fast rewards and pretty ribbons for everyone. WvWvW is not fair and most who do it on a daily basis know and understand that. I believe that reps from Anet have even stated that WvWvW is not intended to be “fair”.

I wish you well on your lobbying for fairness, but I for one hope I never see it happen.

Apparently you have not read other replies where I attempt to address the issues you raise. I mention that one could expand on the rather limited Commander & Squad system, which could allow you to create a squad with your friends, whether they are on the same server/guild or from other guilds/servers and you could all queue as a squad and enter the same battle area/arena/alliance/color together. Also I suggest queuing up as a guild/server squad with the same result of all being put into the same battle area/arena/alliance/color together. BUT, you are not put into a battle area/arena/alliance/color that is already full or near full, you are put into a battle area/arena/alliance/color that needs more players to create a competitive match-up. You want to be identified while playing? Since ANet does not allow for more than one character name across the whole game, it cannot that hard to have them display your name and guild tag to your allies instead of “Badlands Invader” , in the same way as your identity is displayed to other players in WvWvW – I suppose that might be to prevent in-game griefing of some sorts.

Adahilia.3678:

What you propose seems very short sighted on how people work and what they want in regards to community and seems to focus more on fast rewards and pretty ribbons for everyone

In the same breath, so are you short-sighted. The attention span of the average computer gamer is not what it used to be. It’s fine saying you will play this game forever or for a long time or whatever time period, but truthfully most everyone will only play this game for as long as their server and community is populated and as long as their effort matches the reward they think they have earned. Some players want rewards with no or next to little effort. That is not what I am advocating. For most players, just being able to be in a competitive match-up for a change will be more important.

I have also mentioned that ANet themselves say WvWvW is unfair and that’s obvious, what I am saying is that it is imbalanced population coverage-wise. ANet said themselves that this would redress itself naturally…it has not.

Ok, a few assumptions from me this time.

Talyn.3295:

Servers are fine. We don’t need any changes, and I am willing to be most of us don’t want them either.

This from a player on an overpopulated – wait I mean high coverage and overpopulated – server fighting against 2 other overpopulated & high coverage servers most of the time…you are right, you don’t need any changes. It is the low populated servers fighting against imbalanced overpopulated servers that need a change.

I suppose league season is a bit refreshing for you when you can go round and roflstomp for a while too.

Jana.6831:

This would mean that no one would be able to level their new characters, so people would likely only play one character. This also means that new players wouldn’t be welcomed as they still don’t properly know how to play their class.

I don’t think this is a good idea.

There is an evil answer to this, go lvl up new toons in EotM. New players can also learn to play their class properly in EotM, there is hardly a difference in build requirement for WvWvW and EotM really.

Oh but wait, no, no, EotM is rubbish apparently.

20 years for Yakslapper title…does it have a bonus chest too? Imagine what could be in there…. o.o Oh, oh, that could make for a good new topic!

Adahilia.3678:

More important is why post if you aren’t prepared for or willing to accept opposing views to what you propose?

Opposing views are not what are being asked for, the opposing view is to leave everything unbalanced as it is. I asked for scathing remarks and opinions/ideas/improvements.

Opinions imply a reasoning as to why things shouldn’t change. So far the reasoning it shouldn’t change is server pride – which seems a strong reason but really has shown to not be that strong -, and community…and communities can be rebuilt from scratch easily enough. They are not there just automatically.

No real purposeful reason to keep things imbalanced as they are, have been raised. A lot has been said about server pride and community….really is that it? Think as a game designer who wants to keep a playerbase for the next 5-6 years…server pride and community will do that? Really? More players leave games because they are heavily imbalanced in some way. What happens when your server pride results in there only being 3 servers to fight WvWvW against every week for a lonnnnnng time. It’s already happened…T1 guilds and servers burnt out…players left the game…server pride and community didn’t keep them there.

Further, the topic of the post is there for everyone to read…it is a question that implies an intelligent, thought out response, not silly assumptions about how I play or what kind of server I play on.

Serenity.8246:

I’m a little confused by a couple of your statements. “Not to mention a severe lack of server loyalty anyway…” This makes it sound like you are looking down on those that have transferred but then just now you said “do the WvWvW’ers love to play so much that they would spread themselves out equally across the servers? Or do they confuse server pride and community with selfishness and greed?” Take the full sentence and it sounds like you are saying that server pride is selfish and greedy yet reading it alone it says the opposite.

You have taken 2 phrases from different posts/replies and tried to put them into the same context, explains the confusion you feel. When players change servers in a free transfer window for the sole intent of guaranteeing a win in the league for themselves primarily – that the server they overloaded also wins is pretty much irrelevant to them – points to my “..severe lack of server loyalty..” Not to mention, those players will likely not stay on that lower tiered server as has been proven in the past. It’s a general statement but also proven, which again points to a lack of server loyalty. Which in turn points to selfishness and greed…is it server pride moving/keeping players on overpopulated servers or just that they want easy rewards? Should we not be proud about what WvWvW is first, and then server pride?

Serenity.8246:

What do you really think about server pride?

In my experience I note that server pride is a fleeting concept that too many players use to their own advantage and purpose. Yes, there are other players that don’t and that is good for the game but until your server has been targeted and damaged by these server band-wagoners, you may not understand. I myself have not changed servers once.

Serenity.8246:

Yes, the game in general is a casual concept and WvW can be casual..but the scoring and matches make it inherently non-casual. I do not think they fully grasp how fun and addicting it would be for a lot of players and how much the score would matter to people.

Competition is not competition when something like population imbalance overrides everything else. That is the inherent problem here. Changing WvWvW does not mean it will no longer be competitive or that it will be any more casual than it already is but it should address a very skewed issue that is population imbalance and match-ups. In fact, evenly balanced population match-ups are far more competitive.

Serenity.8246:

I mean, we pretty much know who was gonna win Silver and Bronze leagues and yeah,…

At this point in time, yes you can say we know who is going to win. Last year everyone thought the same thing about SBI in T2. They were wrong because there wasn’t just one heavily imbalanced server. FA won but not because they had 24 hour coverage, they had commanders and a server that you described above, working together to minimize the impact of SBI’s coverage.

Serenity.8246:

but it is no different than knowing that one server has a better skill set and strats so will stomp another.

Certainly, however, one can learn how to play better from other servers that beat you with higher skill and better strats. This still makes it worthwhile, but losing a match-up simply because overwhelming numbers – and not even decent players – override any type of offense your server attempts.

Case in point: yesterday we held SMC, sieged and fully upgraded. May be 20-30 players – that’s how many we have at that time. In comes the overpopulated imbalanced server with 60+ players. We kill about 2/3 of them – yes they are that bad that some even die to the guards _ – some of us die and have to run back, so about 10-15 left to fight 30 or so. Keep is contested because they have so many numbers to spare and we can’t contest their WP because we cannot spare the few we have. Outcome? I suppose we were being competitive because we managed to stand up against so many.

I have learned something else from this post and other similar ones. When you post a topic like this, so many of the ‘debunkers’ just assume that the OPs have never played WvWvW before, that they are new to the game, that they are on a low population server where everything must suck community-wise, that they are ‘casual’ players because they don’t live in WvWvW.

Newsflash! Your assumptions are just that.

However, I post this watching the server slowly taking the first steps – I hope not – towards becoming, what so many assume the server I am on, to be already.

Mint Rubber.6543:

Hey OP! Let me ask you a few questions:

1) Actually I have no problem with night capping…it’s night capping to you but it’s someone else’s morning, as to wanting to fight them more, certainly in the full knowledge that it would be a useful endeavor – ie: the server populations are balanced and server efforts and results promote a closely fought match-up. Currently that is not the case for many servers – not every server has equally sized blobs, like the top 3 for example.

2) Sure, happens often enough in our tier, again the double team does not mean monstrously huge server population imbalances and coverage but that is not what is happening right now because when I say huge I mean one server having 60+ blobs on all 3 maps concurrently over 24 hours vs two other servers that can may be field 20-30 to cover all 3 maps over the same 24 hours.

3) Scouted sure, upgraded? Not directly, I send my superior siege that I make to the commanders.

4) Ahh no, sadly real life interferes with that kind of event.

5) Gosh, who hasn’t – too many I spose? – TS has crashed a few times on us alrdy.

6) Sure, you recognize the regulars – voices on TS and their guilds/toons

7) That’s up for debate, right now there is more GVG that happens in WvW than ever before – people are bored.

Mint Rubber.6543:

Guilds come and go, the core group of a server is formed out of commanders and players who fight only for their world, not pve rewards/achievements/quaggans.

Aww, insult the PVE community that makes up more of the server population than you care to consider. Give bigger egos to your commanders as well, sure they no doubt play an important role but you seem to have WvWvW tunnel vision.

8) Not true, over the ages, ideologies have proved more than enough of a common “something” to fight over/for. That is what a server name is right now, just a “something”. If ANet gives you another “something” that differentiates you from “something” else, what makes you so sure you won’t fight for it? Not to mention the manner in which players have transferred for this League season – and last year’s one as well – which really shows server pride, tsk. Sure, some players are loyal to their servers and stay, but others and that’s a lot of others are in it for better rewards for themselves, not the server.

Mint Rubber.6543:

Plus from an RP point of view servers are parallel worlds so it would make no sense to merge them outside the Edge of the Mists.

Hallo, megaservers will put an end to that in PVE already…it’s more than likely a first step ANet intends to use to change/improve WvWvW on some level.

Since most of my answers are yes and/or discount your other points – which only seem to assume that I don’t play WvWvW, that I play on a shambles of a server that is disorganised or doesn’t have a community to speak of – really your wall of text was just your tunnel-visioned opinion. The only point of yours that stands out is your last sentence and that is based solely on believing that it would only be about generic colors. Have you people no imagination?

Mint Rubber.6543:

I want my WvW to be personal and dramatic not bland and generic red vs blue vs green.

Because being blobbed 7:1 is so personal and dramatic? More impersonal and anti-climactic.

Best of luck to you too!

oscuro.9720:

Taking out WvW will deteriorate the game MUCH faster than the normal progression of a game

Sheesh, it’s not about taking out WvW, it’s about improving it so that there is some sort of population balance. It can still be unfair but let’s have it be unfair over something other than coverage. Suppose each server had to have a conscription type of system, a ‘standing army’ that could only be a specific size and could only be used for WvWvW… do the WvWvW’ers love to play so much that they would spread themselves out equally across the servers? Or do they confuse server pride and community with selfishness and greed?

Talyn.3295:

Call me selfish if you want. But I honestly don’t care.

Your argument would stand scrutiny if GW2 was continuously getting new players in to offset the loss of transfers. As that is not happening, the lower tiered servers are not able to build up as you would like them to, there is nothing to build with. The only time any transfer move happens is when free transfers guarantee a league win. And this does not in anyway show ‘server pride’. It just shows a player’s selfish and greedy attitude. Nice building stones for a community.

phys.7689:

Being green team is meaningless to me. green team is different every day, green team is my enemy one day and my pal the next. Green team is different in every single instance. I cant really root for green team they are just a random mob with no permanence or consistent traits or charachteristics.

Being overrun 4:1 or even 7:1 is meaningless to me too. I feel like a bag not even another face. The primary issue is to not turn WvWvW into EotM that would be redundant, it is to turn it into something better than EotM but better than the current imbalanced system that is WvWvW.

Talyn.3295:

Kalyani.1453:

Okay…so why not have it guild and player based (for those without guilds)? Positions could be determined by guild count/activity, and current point status of each color. Voice communication would primarily be guild based, but many guilds already tend to use their own channels for WvW rather than public ones, so it wouldn’t be much of a change.

I’m merely providing ideas to balance out gameplay. Sometimes “terrible ideas” can evolve into good ideas with enough feedback and ingenuity.

Sorry, but some ideas will always be bad. I get it that the lower tiers are asking for something more. But you can’t expect to destroy communities like we have built of players and guilds and not run in to very stiff opposition. If Anet were to decide to go with your idea that would happen. And once you start messing with something like that players will leave. If you have any doubt look at the Discussion fourms with the Roleplayers and the WvW community is even harder to please.

You know, this thing about destroying communties and such coming from established, decently populated servers is hypocritical. What is happening here is that the lower tiered, lower population server communities are being destroyed. Think about that. Or does it even matter to you – the needs and wants of the many outweigh those of the few? Democracy at it’s best?

To be fair, it isn’t the well-balanced servers’ fault, it is ANet’s. They have done very little to rectify server imbalances in WvWvW. Some sort of server merger between the lower tiered servers has to happen otherwise ANet could lose more servers and players, with players not bothering to play anymore than from a server merge.

ManaCraft.5630:

You can read this if you like, my answer to you is essentially the same. Whereas smaller populations are more volatile, larger populations will inevitably tend to average out. Plus, there are ways to mitigate the impact of excess players.

Hmm, thanks for that. 2 interesting things come from all this…

(1) the devs have already made a decision based on some form of empirical research – trying really hard not to be sarcastic there
(2) quite a few other players are already raising this issue that I have – and also receiving fewer constructive responses

So, I suppose this can just be closed then.

Adahilia.3678:

Yes it is the scoring, most people who have built their community and stay with that community do it because it is theirs. What you suggest takes away from what people want. People play on low tier servers because they like the play, same for silver and gold. There have been numerous posts about it. EoTM was not a map introduced to “change” world, it was put into place to mollify those that were sitting in queue for world maps. While you may think it is an easy thing to just up and change the scoring system, it really is not such an easy thing to do otherwise I’m sure it would have been done already and I believe why we are seeing the different set ups for season competition.

Guess we won’t really know what is easier unless a dev pops on and shows us the numbers; creating a whole new map like EotM or changing a scoring system? ANet has known from the start that Glicko was never optimized for this method of scoring and many players have pointed it out too.

Tbh, this Swiss-style round robin will have minimal impact on this season’s league where there are large discrepancies between server coverage…let’s take T2 for example. There is one mega-zerg server in that tier with pretty much 24hour coverage. They will win every match up regardless. The Swiss style works when there is a close to evenly-matched situation for everyone participating. It could work well if every server had 24hour coverage, then any little inconsistency in server performance would have a real impact on the outcome.

Mind you, who knows, that mega-zerg server’s players may all come down with a big bout of flu which keeps them in bed for days to weak to play computer games, sore throats that no-one can say anything on ts, or they all get sent to summer camp, hehe.

WvWvW has been around 4 months short of 2 years now. Population imbalance has been around 4 months short of 2 years now. ANet’s contention that things will balance/even out has happened in the top 3 server positions. That’s it. Players complain about server merging? It has happened under another guise.

ManaCraft.5630:

I don’t see why you would need some elaborate system involving commanders and squads. Just let players choose which alliance (color) they want to play for.

EotM fails because communities cannot form due to the random nature of the format. If you want alliances to work, you have to allow the players the same degree of freedom that they enjoy under the current system – no exceptions. Then you’d be in business.

Well, Squad grouping would ensure that all players – regardless of guild/even server perhaps – would get into the same alliance/color as long as that alliance/color has population space open for it.

Choosing the alliance/color would not address population imbalances, suppose everyone wants to be green…Perhaps grouping as a squad or super-squad could take priority over individuals queuing and individuals would queue according to alliance/color preference and be assigned the relevant one if there is still population space available.

Adahilia.3678:

EoTM and EBG are imo probably bad examples to use. EoTM was I believe created as a hold over for those waiting in queue, yes? Which I believe is the reason that nothing you take there contributes to the overall server scores, and the only thing the winning team receives is supplies for their home bl. EGB for me is where I go when my guild is not running, and I want larger group fights with friends from other guilds. Do I agree that world needs a change? Yes, but not merging servers. The way servers are matched/ranked needs the overhaul not the communities. The swiss style matching I think might be a possibility as it can more quickly adjust for server population changes than the current Glicko system, but would still need some changes to make it viable.

Is it really just the scoring system? If it was just that that could adjust for the imbalances in WvWvW population now, surely, surely ANet would have done something about it already? That they tried to change things up a little by introducing EotM instead….what does that mean?

goldenwing.8473:

PS: I don’t like jump puzzles, don’t believe they belong in the game. There are players that do enjoy them.

I don’t advocate their removal.

Yeah, cos jumping puzzles aren’t competitive? Your analogy is moot. Did I say I didn’t like WvWvW anywhere? Nope. Did I say there are somethings not quite right with it? Yes. Did I suggest some ideas to try and improve on these not quite right items? Yes.

I did find out that so many really competitive non-casual war-minded WvWvW players feel there is nothing wrong with WvWvW as they see it and that’s fine. Don’t be insulting about it.

Oh wait, my bad…I did ask for scathing remarks, kitten !

DaMikenatr.7041:

Myth Shaia.4856:

phys.7689:

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

You may have missed the actual objective of EotM then…and it has its own objectives too, and when you win, you get a oooooh, ahhhh supply drop in your Borderlands keep…I mean that’s really sad as a prize…really. And I do not see how karma training in EotM is any different from karma training in WvWvW or EBG…

That’s the point you’re missing, the ones who don’t karma train are the ones who are so strongly against the EotM style format. They’re the ones who have developed a community, who spend all day working together with players and other guilds. If you take that familiarity away, take away the ability to play with the same people that may not be in the same guild, then you lose what WvW really is. I have been on 2 servers, both with the same people. My first server was very shut in and lacking community, whereas my current server has a very open and friendly community. Even though my guild is the same people, the experience is night and day and I would never trade what I currently have for anything that remotely resembles EotM.

Ok, I guess I don’t understand karma training then….to me all of it is karma training whether you take objectives or defend them. I suppose I am more interested in an even battle pvp rather than zerg-roflstomp-pvd your opposition and feel ‘proud’ about your awesomeness.

Further down I mention about expanding guild groups to Squads, are ppl so scared of change and perhaps improving the game as a whole? Not saying that this would do that but it could be a step in the right direction. If you are of the opinion that WvWvW is fine as it is, go read some of the 100s of posts suggesting that it isn’t.

I am not saying this is how it must be, it’s an idea. An idea that can use expansion on and various improvements, not simply be shut down and brushed aside and rudely insulted. Is that what the GW2 community is like now?

Srolo.5208:

Go play EOTM. It’s the casual, unaffiliated, meaningless play you seem to be looking for. Just because you’re not on a well populated server or are refusing to join up and get involved with a WvW guild/community doesn’t mean you can tear apart those of us that have and are a part of that.

Cool, another scathing remark.

That you fail to see that GW2 itself the whole game is actually casual in form – as ANet have themselves mentioned – makes your remark more than just scathing.

That you assume EotM is more casual and meaningless than WvWvW is simply your opinion and such a poor one – thanks for insulting all the players that enjoy EotM. Unaffiliated play? Tell that to the players in there that gel and work together and become friends, those from the same server learn to play better together too.

That you assume I am not on a well populated server and/or that I refuse to join up and play WvW and join the community doesn’t say much for your opinion either. That you think your community will be torn apart because of a change to how WvWvW works…aww….make a new community or, wait go play TESO….

phys.7689:

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

You may have missed the actual objective of EotM then…and it has its own objectives too, and when you win, you get a oooooh, ahhhh supply drop in your Borderlands keep…I mean that’s really sad as a prize…really. And I do not see how karma training in EotM is any different from karma training in WvWvW or EBG…

ManaCraft.5630:

But I’ll agree that an EotM-style system is not the answer – not because the idea of alliances is bad, but because EotM removes far too many choices from the player, which in turn makes the socialization you speak of impossible. How are you going to form a community when you can’t even decide which alliance you represent, which map you play on, or even whom you play with? It just doesn’t happen.

It’s only if you create a system where players retain those choices that things get interesting.

So, suppose ANet expands the Squad system and the Commander system, they really need to. Like-minded players join the Commander’s squad and they queue up for a map. They go in as a squad. Make the squad have a player limit and you can even create multiple squads from the same server and queue up for the same color map. Essentially you could create ‘raid squads’ that have specific objectives and roles to play.Good enough?

The choices you mention, socialization and community building….join the same guild, what’s stopping you from sharing a TS? Make a friends list…

oscuro.9720:

I went from Black Gate to Yaks Bend to kaineng. The unfair fight is the best fight! So, son, get your anti-war slander and go on back to PvE. Wvw is fine as it is. We play to win and conquer. We play for what it is, not what is fair.

The unfair fight is the best fight? Hour after hour, day after day, week after week…you see where I am going with this? How long before you change servers again? How long before ANet loses more and more players from the game? Trading on f2p will only hold so long…

The question is, do we still need WvWvW? I don’t think so, not in its current form, the game has moved on, megaservers are coming which will water down server loyalty some more. That it isn’t coming to WvWvW, is ANet hoping that this alone will strengthen server pride?

quickflash.6314:

/delete thread

Sounds like you are trying to make WvW casual and not competitive. War isn’t fair.

How is WvWvW competitive? To may be 20-25% of the game population – may be – you consider it war, rest of the GW2 playerbase sees it as recreational and casual. War may not be fair but you wouldn’t want to compete in an unfair war either.

But thanks for the scathing remark…I should keep score…that would make it competitive yes?

With the current systems in place and even ANet admitting that wvwvw is not fair should we look at a better mass PVP playstyle? Not to mention a severe lack of server loyalty anyway, players would prefer to play with friends first anyway…

1) Use an EotM server grouping (colors) and timed battle system – more urgency, less worry about coverage

2) Assign players to color groupings based on population numbers already fighting – so players are distributed to the color with the lowest numbers – if players are in a group or in the same guild the group or guild is assigned together to the color requiring more numbers – a lot less worry about coverage

3) No weekly scoring system, rather put in Guild rewards and/or individual rewards – currency that can get you special armor/weapon/titles/minipets/Black Lion TP tickets/whatever

There would be less server vs server drama I suppose, but really is it something we need? This may also promote better guild play as currently many many players still play as individuals even being part of a large population guild…it may also foster a better GW2 gaming community? Who knows…

Better ideas, scathing remarks and opinions awaited…

The League structure is definitely a problem, it’s pretty obvious who is going to win really, not the better players but the ones with 24hour coverage. Appears as if the devs don’t really care about it, they have often said WvWvW is not supposed to be fair and I guess when your whole server zerg = 20-30 players to cover all maps and your opponents can field 60+ zergs per map, then yes I guess their stated intent of it not being fair holds true…and yes this is happening to us this week. The server got hit by the lower/free tier transfers and what was a stable tier 2 environment is now completely skewed. Wonder what will happen to these lower tier servers once the league is over though…

Wow, not imba/op enough already as a warrior? And I say that without prejudice. Just for giggles I setup my warrior last night for wvw – usually am on my guardian – OMG faceroll warrior imba/op/indestructible compared to my guardian and STILL does significant damage numbers! I was just shaking my head in disbelief and what I could get away with, warrior passives are just made for wvw zergs really. The guardian is more for smaller fights that need to end quicker than a zerg fight unless you have many and I say MANY guardians in the zerg – numbers are falling in great anticipation of the next patch, be prepared to LF Guardian, no more warriors pls.

But yh, you don’t need Balanced Stance to be a stance, also wouldn’t that passive override Endure Pain when it pops? Not sure if a warrior can be in more than one stance….yes, that’s how little I know about warriors and was able to survive and dish it out last night, heck a thief even ran away o.o

Wouldn’t it be great if spirit weapons were actually summoned and used by the guardian as a direct main hand/offhand weapon? Could still keep the current traits that affect spirit weapons even, may be redesign a few…

Guardians need….a Dark archon mode! Guardian & a Neccie had a baby? Would solve the condition guardian conundrum…

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Play-style vision: To be able to be fighting 1v1 or multiple opponents causing burning damage every 3 attacks and affecting 5 targets around in (240 radius). Sigil of Earth or Geomancy (hopefully being changed to Chance on Hit instead of Crit) and weapon swap grants poison (maybe go with Torment instead) for both weapon sets. That would give us burning, poison(or torment), bleed, and confusion (Perplexity).

Think ArtemisEntreri has hit the proverbial nail on the head…the condition-creating weapon sigils is where guardians will get the cover conditions from…and with burning every 3 secs, it’s going to make condition cleansing by your target tricky…

Altho, this still comes down to, are we as guardians going to be able to sacrifice the weapon sigils we use now just to cover or add a couple of conditions? At the end of the day, it is only 1 extra sigil spot that we are getting on the GS/Hammer/Staff…

I would suggest breaking your blob into at least 2 groups: 50 & 30. Your 50 man handles capping of towers/keeps and your 30 man roams open field close enough to your 50 man to act as devastation in a pincer movement, supply control so your opponents cannot get siege or upgrade, or a quick response to one of your keeps/towers coming under attack, and even to do a sudden BL jump to help the rest of your server where they are under attack. Depending on how good your fighters and commanders are, this provides pressure to your opponents on what looks like 2 fronts but the extra spirit-breaking has a much bigger impact.

To illustrate this, on FA we had a team in SBI BL all day yesterday and we were applying pressure there, but we would jump out to FABL and even EBG to counter a strong surge and multiple golem rushes from SBI. One battle saw us WP to FABL garrison to handle a multiple golem rush – as we were killing those golems, our scout reported that SBI Bay (which we owned) was also under a sudden & suspicious well coordinated golem rush – confirmed the spy situation at least. So as soon as we had killed the FABL golem rush, we had to WP back to SBI BL and handle that. Which we succeeded in doing. Great fun and epic battle!

Just remember, successful guerilla warfare in wvw is very effective.

It really does exist, I have it on my character

Treeline.3865:

Does the tidal wave happen when Tequatl kills everyone on a failed event?(Not defense event, the actual event)

Happens when you cannot defend the batteries or mega-laser cannon successfully.

LameFox.6349:

Why is it ‘secret’ though? Does it not appear for most people or something?

It’s secret because it isn’t listed in your achievements section until you actually complete it.

Of course, now this is going to become the most wanted achievement, lmao!

Bear in mind, these are simple instructions for a successful attempt, Heca if you’d like to elaborate on your commanding on the zerg, what would be nice and would be appreciate by some that are looking to understand timing on banner calls, guardian shield, elemental winds/heals/conjured weapons, etc.