Guild Wars 2

Jski.6180:

@Poxheart.2845

Would you kindly stop putting world in my month that i did not say.

Everything I quoted is something you wrote.

With regard to your observations about PvP in ESO, it’s abundantly clear that you have not actually participated in the activities that you write about and your statements are based on speculation. Would you kindly please stop doing so. Thank you.

Jski.6180:

Poxheart.2845:

Jski.6180:

AND ESO gives you free sieges to put down that MAKES you pve in rvrvr because thoughts who do not pve in rvrvr are weaker then though who do. ESO going to go down the same rode with its RvRvR in time as GW2 the thing about ESO they will just throw more pve at the players and make it less about pvp.

This is the second thread that you’ve alleged this and your statements are not accurate.

Do tell are there supplies in eso? Do you get means of buying sieges from pve? Is there pve in eos RvRvR? What did i lie about?

Added note every time we talk about eso the more like these will be closed so if you want to put up ideal its best not to talk about eso this is a gw2 forum not eso.

I’ll break it down for you:

“ESO gives you free siege.” False. In ESO, siege is purchased with alliance points. You earn more alliance points through killing other players and fighting over objectives defended by other players than through doing pve.

“[ESO] MAKES you do pve in rvr.” False. It is possible to earn all of your alliance points by killing other players and not doing any pve at all.

“because thoughts [sic] who do not pve in rvrvr are weaker then though [sic] who do.” This sentence doesn’t even make sense. Reading your other replies you seem to think that using siege somehow makes a player stronger in PvP. While siege is required to take a keep because player attacks won’t damage keep doors (unlike GW2), players without siege can still influence the outcome of a keep fight by killing enemy reinforcements without using any siege at all.

“ESO going to go down the same rode [sic] with its RvRvR in time as GW2 the thing about ESO they will just throw more pve at the players and make it less about pvp.” You have no way of knowing the direction ESO’s PvP will go. The only people who do are ESO’s developers. Currently, however, ESO’s PvP favors killing other players much more than in GW2.

Reading your replies to other people, it seems that the basis for your complaint is that supplies aren’t needed to build siege in ESO. My response to that is, “so what” and argue that taking supply camps in GW2 is more PvE than PvP. Outside of a very few instances, most supply camps are taken without any defense at all, so they are just more PvE content in a PvP zone.

In fact, it’s a stronger argument to say that in GW2 you’re required to PvE (take supply camps) to build siege to take a keep, but then in GW2 it’s entirely possible to take keeps without using any siege at all because players can destroy doors with their attacks.

Jski.6180:

AND ESO gives you free sieges to put down that MAKES you pve in rvrvr because thoughts who do not pve in rvrvr are weaker then though who do. ESO going to go down the same rode with its RvRvR in time as GW2 the thing about ESO they will just throw more pve at the players and make it less about pvp.

This is the second thread that you’ve alleged this and your statements are not accurate.

Ahmrill.7512:

Poxheart.2845:

Ahmrill.7512:

yeah something new… like actually able to form a private or guild only squad without having people flock to the pin and form a zerg. C&S system upgrade is a good start for helping WvW….. but it appears only the players feel that way.

Hey Ahmrill – I don’t know if you’ve tried it, but in ESO you can form a large party of up to 24 people. Similar to the warbands we used to be in together in WAR…

Heya Poxheart! Yeah tried the TESO beta and even they can can figure out how to make a PROPER grouping system. Warhammer failed on some things, but they sure excelled at grouping systems. The warband is still the best grouping system I’ve ever used for large scale PvP… something Anet needs to research.

Some of our guild are planning to initially try TESO, should try and get our guilds on the same faction/campaign.

KoWW hasn’t decided on a faction yet, but I’ll PM you when it’s decided. Probably won’t until after the next beta. Shebali and I played together during the last two beta weekends and had a lot of fun roaming around as a duo.

Ahmrill.7512:

yeah something new… like actually able to form a private or guild only squad without having people flock to the pin and form a zerg. C&S system upgrade is a good start for helping WvW….. but it appears only the players feel that way.

Hey Ahmrill – I don’t know if you’ve tried it, but in ESO you can form a large party of up to 24 people. Similar to the warbands we used to be in together in WAR…

Heezdedjim.8902:

The map uses a lattice structure, so objectives have to be taken “in order,” rolling up the links and working back toward the other side’s home corner. So you can’t just randomly sneak in and cap one thing off on the other side of the map. This eliminates the rampant karma training and establishes a “front” between the three sides where all the action will focus at any given time.

You’re wrong about this. There is no need to take objectives in any kind of order. It is entirely possible for a group of people to go deep into enemy territory and take resource camps and even a keep without having taken those closer to the front. However, given that keeps can’t be taken as quickly as in GW2, the enemy may try to stop the attempt (unless distracted elsewhere).

Heezdedjim.8902:

Hule.8794:

Heezdedjim you forgot about Ress tents. You can build ress tent anywhere and it is not afficted by contesting the keep. But tents are really easy to burn down. Do proper placement is needed.

They do exist. They’re sort of like a mini forward base or like one of the vehicles that include a spawn point in games like PS2.

It’s a consumeable you have to buy and have with you, and it only allows 20 players to respawn at one before it goes away. They can be useful for bringing troops back to an ongoing battle a little quicker, if deployed near the front line and not burned down right away. I never saw one actually used in beta, but with some established and more coordinated groups in game, they could be of some value.

I’m not sure if one can be put inside the keep wall or if they can only go outside keeps. If they can go inside the walls, then (assuming enough people bring them), they could help to get defending forces safely inside quicker.

While most of what you said is accurate, I can confirm that forward camps can be placed inside of keep walls so long as the ground is flat (they have a huge footprint). There is also an exclusion zone that prevents you from placing more than one in close proximity. I haven’t been able to test the range of the exclusion zone yet, but it seems to be pretty big.

I’ve seen a couple of neat tricks with forward camps that I look forward to using once the game goes live. The biggest drawback to them is that anybody from your faction can use them until they’re used up, which means that an organized group placing one deep in enemy territory to allow group members a quick respawn will likely see pugs use them up.

Reverence.6915:

Poxheart.2845:

In ESO you get more rewards from fighting players than from taking keeps, so there’s less likelihood of karma trains.

Fighting players (in zergs) in GW2 gives more wxp, loot and exp. People still karma train. Why? Because people will look for the easy and safe route to rewards. Unless there’s 0 reward for taking a keep, there will always be some kind of “karma train”

There is some reward for taking a keep, but no loot drops. You’re not going to get a precursor from killing a mob in an ESO keep.

Keeps in ESO are valuable because they make it easier to move around the map, so people tend to defend them. However, there is a benefit to taking 6 specific keeps, so there’s incentive to attack them as well.

In GW2 there is very little incentive to defend, which is what promotes the karma train.

DivineBeing.2086:

Based on what I am seeing right now with 500k players in their beta, their RvR map is WAY TOO BIG. I think one guy on the stream stated it takes about 40 minutes to go from one side to the other. And based on what I saw last night, seems true.

You move at a snails pace which means less action. Why? You die = have fun running back. You attack a keep = enemy has no chance to respond, so have fun pvdooring.

The only way I can see ESO being successful is if there is such a HUGE SUSTAINABLE RvR playerbase that it won’t become some karma train around the map fighting little to nobody.

I suppose it would take 40 minutes to cross the zone if you were sneaking the entire time. There are ways to travel from keep to keep. Even to a keep that’s being attacked. BUT the enemy can cut those lines of travel, so, you know, strategy & need to defend & stuff. All things that WvW lacks (unless you count having a thief tap the door at Garrison to contest a waypoint).

In ESO you get more rewards from fighting players than from taking keeps, so there’s less likelihood of karma trains.

Any game’s PvP is going to have issues based on overall and relative population. That’s unavoidable. It seems like ESO has considered this and factored it into their campaign system AND (more importantly) are willing to set up alternate campaign rules if it’s too much of a problem.

Jski.6180:

Point by point.

Sieges like ballista in ESO is more on the lines i am talking about to put it down before a fight will destroy a realty good open fight. Also that the sieges in ESO is a point and click type there no skill in use.

This is absolutely not true. Anybody dropping ballista in an open field fight is a) going to die and b) not going to have any effect on the battle. Siege weapons do require you to aim, but they are slow to fire. Much slower than siege in GW2. And while on the subject, there’s nothing more “point & click” than arrow carts and omega siege golems.

Jski.6180:

The PvE in ESO will be required to do in rvr if you do not do it you do not have a sieges and because sieges is free to put down if you do not have any one you your that much more worthless to your team. But not only this you get buffed from the pve so by doing it your stronger. This is also true with holding keeps there a very bad snowball effect that will happen where one side will win most of the time.

This comment leads me to believe that by “PvE” you’re talking about taking keeps. First, how is that any different than in GW2 where you get badges from taking keeps Second, it’s not true that you have to do PvE to get alliance points to spend on siege. There are player kill quests that give you alliance points. Third, even if you don’t have siege you can still help contribute to a keep assault. Like use healing skills or roam around to cut off the defenders’ reinforcements. Fourth, There is much more back & forth in ESO than there is in GW2. Primarily because of the way the map is arranged, but for other reasons as well.

Jski.6180:

Bigger is not better and more then likely your going to feel like your playing a solo rvr most of the time in the one big map of ESO rvr at least in GW2 wvw you can move acrose the map fast if you die to try to save something.

Perhaps it will feel like solo RvR if you join a campaign with low population on all three sides, but how is that any different than WvW? Your last point is one of the reasons why WvW has failed.

Jski.6180:

I think ESO rvr is new and much like EotM ppl had no idea what they where doing when the first got in but in time there are some major flaws that will show up in ESO rvr things that i do not think can be fixed the sieges not requiring any thing to put down the need to pve to get sieges the size of the map are going to prove to making it not worth it.

There’s no doubt that some flaws will appear as more people experience ESO’s PvP, but the points you make are not them. Your entire posts reads like somebody who’s not actually participated in ESO’s PvP.

Terravos.4059:

RyuDragnier.9476:

If I recall correctly, ESO’s matches last for a week as well, don’t they? Or was it 2-3 days…

“During Beta we have been using a 48 hour Campaign ruleset but standard Campaigns will last 3 months. We have the ability to make scoring changes and duration changes depending on player needs and we’ll analyze how scoring goes to determine if we need alternate rulesets with different duration, scoring, but also if we need to add player level restricted Campaigns or not. There really is a great deal of flexibility with the Campaign system, and we will be paying close attention to what players ask for to determine which Campaign rules we add,” he explained.

i’m not certain what happens when a Campaign ends in ESO though.

On the playtest server you receive an email with a reward.

Jski.6180:

For some ppl they will like ESO but the sieges in that game seems very easy to lay down and too easy to use for wvw players who like open filed fights and comply avoid sieges of any type i think it will be a very short time.

This comment makes no sense. ESO’s siege weapons are best used for taking down keep walls/doors and there are no arrowcarts that people can flash build during open field fight. The rate of fire is also much slower than those in GW2.

Jski.6180:

There also the high amount of pve in ESO rvr the ppl who are “hard core” wvw hate PvE in there wvw a lot so i cant see something like that last for that long. ESO looks like it will have an ok PvE but i think its RvR is doom from the start.

The PVE in ESO is in out of the way places and will have little to no effect on the larger struggle to take/control keeps on the map. A map that is, I estimate, 3x larger than all 4 WvW maps combined. There are no white mobs for thieves to chain cloak and dagger off of. And with no down state, any PVE mobs that do happen to get mixed up into a fight won’t rally people when they die.

Jski.6180:

So ya we will see a drop at that point but i cant see it lasting long for the WvW players who are on every day or even for the GvG groups that you find in WvW moving over to ESO for a long time unless some major changes happen.

I used to WvW almost every day, but once I got the opportunity to play ESO I haven’t even logged into GW2. My entire guild has stopped playing GW2 and is waiting for ESO.

Terkov.4138:

ESO PvP? You mean stunlock -> dead?

I guess you don’t know that everybody can break being stunned as long as they have enough endurance.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Poxheart.2845:

I haven’t logged into GW2 since I started playing ESO. Aside from having three opposing sides there really is no comparison between the two games. ESO’s PvP is everything that GW2’s isn’t.

Too bad the actual combat in that game isn’t that good. It’s not worth a subscription.

That may be your opinion, but it’s not mine.

My initial impression of the game was not favorable, but now that I’ve spent more than just a weekend playing the game I feel differently. The actual PvP is really good.

DivineBeing.2086:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Say one thing for Sanctum of Rall (and those Rallians that made a name out of it), say out of the three long standing tier 1 servers, BG with its ultra stacked mega blobs, JQ with its long standing tier 1 streak, It’s SoR that people have pointed at, talked about, worried about, named guilds regarding, and had questions about more than the other two combined.

Famous is famous.

I disagree. You can’t even open a WvW thread without someone, who knows nothing about BG, bad mouthing BG.

To paraphrase somebody earlier in this thread, if 10 people say the same thing about a server, there must be some truth to it.

I haven’t logged into GW2 since I started playing ESO. Aside from having three opposing sides there really is no comparison between the two games. ESO’s PvP is everything that GW2’s isn’t.

SkeletalLlama.5381:

Everyone I saw who planned on leaving for ESO returned within hours and uninstalled the beta. Doesn’t sound promising.

Once you get past the starter areas and into the PvP zone it is leaps and bounds better than this. The map is HUGE. There is varied terrain with mile gates and bridges. Best of all there are no arrow carts.

styx.7294:

Dynnen.6405:

I would like to see links on where Anet said they wanted this for a specific reason. People say “Anet wanted EotM for X or Y reason” and I don’t remember them saying any of that

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Edge-of-the-Mists-FAQ/first#post3050508

Grotesque.6479:
“Q11: What do you view under ‘We want the best WvW experience’? What is the goal of WvW and what would be the best WvW experience with the addition of this map?”

DevonCarver
“11) The goal of this map is to provide a place for the thousands of people who queue daily to be able to experience the WvW experience rather than being left out. There will be massive battles, epic sieges, stirring defenses, and crushing defeats on this map. We want as many people as possible to be playing WvW and as we expand into other territories we want to make sure they don’t experience the massive queues that we saw at launch in NA/EU.”

The problem with Devon’s response is that EotM is about 3 or 4 months too late. There hasn’t been queues in NA T1 servers since the leagues ended (dunno if Euro T1 has queues). Last week I could join any map at any time w/o a queue. That’s the thing people at ANet should be looking at.

As others have said, it isn’t easy to solo roam as a power necromancer, but if you do you can take satisfaction from every victory. Power necromancers do better with others. I’ve been having success with 2 or 3 other. I linked the build I’m trying in the thread Pottross linked.

Kiriakulos.1690:

% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.

This pretty much says it all.

Thanks for posting the videos, they are both entertaining. Interesting that you used axe for almost all the fights (I only remember seeing you switch to dagger/focus one time).

In the second video at the 5:10-5:13 mark you probably would’ve gotten away if not for your heal/utilities getting locked out when you exited death shroud. Really wish ANet would focus on fixing that … it’s not like people haven’t brought it to their attention!

So I got to test the build I posted a little bit more tonight after reset. The CC from spectral grasp followed by golem charge & wail of doom was pretty nice. It definitely sets opponents up to be focused by you & friends. Was fun seeing some 4K+ hits while in DS. Still need practice with the timing of skills & managing cooldowns, but that will come with time.

Was running in a group with 3 others, which definitely helped, so didn’t get a chance to see what it was like solo.

I’m not advocating that this is the best DS build ever, it’s just one that I’m having fun with.

This is the set up I’ve been working toward for a power/DS based roaming build:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBHbdG2IjW4e1mvG9eCBSx7VLRKQmlh6x6gOfIA-j0CBYfBCbZZ0kFBiKYZ0JPFRjtMsIasabYqYER1WzJycGzgWoWIABjBA-w

I haven’t had much time to test it out lately, but the few times I have went OK. I may change up the off hand weapon to dagger warhorn (I like the sigil of ice on the dagger I saw somebody has on their build). I’ll also probably switch up the utilities. I’m using spectral walk & wurm for the mobility.

I’ve been testing this build out the past few days and it’s pretty fun. I switched up some of the utilities & traits to suit my play style.

Reslinal.2359:

I would like you provide the names of those small PvX guilds that BG paid part of their transfer costs.

Re-read what Fannwong wrote. He didn’t say anything about paying for transfer costs.

Reslinal.2359:

Of course your WvW NOW is a ghost town since everyone is on the move, but it wasn’t like this several weeks ago.

My experiences go back several weeks, if not months, now.

Axe is the weapon I’d like to see changed. As others have said, either increase the range or shorten it and give it cleave. Either way, attack speed needs to be increased.

Reverence.6915:

And if you think any T1 server outnumbers another T1 server during NA, well, yeah.. no.

More fiction. When I entered WvW just a few hours ago, SoR was outmanned on both JQ & BG BL and we owned nothing on SoR BL so I assume we were outmanned there as well. After doing a few laps of the map, avoiding the JQ & BG zergs, my roaming group called it a night because we couldn’t find any fights.

The only satisfaction we had was the two or three BG that alt+F4’d when our 5 man group caught them too far away from a tower/keep.

Reverence.6915:

The only time SoR can claim they are outnumbered is during SEA.

As somebody that plays on SoR, and has had the opportunity to play during a wide variety of time zones, this is 100% fiction.

Super Wilson.7408:

I remember this moment. I saw the multiple mesmers and warrior coming at me and I said … well YOLO… see what happens. Not sure if I noticed the bow… but that is much better than the usual laugh spam I get from losing vs multiples while I am alone.

Yeah, I know what it’s like to fight against BG, too ;P. Only people resembling feminine hygiene products spam laugh after stomping somebody in a 1vN fight. Any warrior that charges into an outnumbered fight instead of running away is going to get a bow from me.

I’m pretty sure I ran into you tonight while I was with two mesmer buddies. You were on BG BL noob island hitting an iron node when we came up the bridge & I saw you activate SoR. I bowed after the pin, but I’m not sure you saw it.

It’s too bad they were there, would have been fun to fight a mirror match against the master.

So I did some roaming tonight on BG BL with two others. I gotta say it was pretty deserted.

You know something is up when you’re happy to receive white/blue/green cloth loot over anything else.

Gully, gotta laugh at people transferring to BG from SoR/JQ to get their roam on. Any roamer worth the name is looking for a target rich environment, not one where you’re on the side with superior numbers. I wouldn’t call those transfers roamers…

I’m pretty happy with roaming on SoR. Sure we’re outmanned most of the time I play, but that just means there are more enemy to fight and I don’t have to worry about repair bills. Things are better than during the league, but it seems that when I play there just aren’t that many enemy to be found unless its a group of 5-15+.

I see nothing wrong with using lich form against thieves.

For those (like me) that don’t want to watch the entire video, here’s a link to the buid:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBHbdG2IjWle1mvG9eCBSx7VLRKQmlh6x6gOfIA-jkDBYfDiGbJZkFBiKYZ0JPQJQEZsFXFRjVbDTZKpqYCyWzYmzQG0B2dIpSBExYA-w

I guessed on the underwater weapons, food & wrench.

In response to something Gully said. My guldie and I actively avoid “roaming” near our spawn or on noob island because finding small fights there is impossible. Sure we may start out fighting 1 or 2 people, but it rarely stays that way for the duration. There’s almost always adds.

That said, we’ve also noticed that the maps have been pretty dead now that the leagues are over. We’re frequently outmanned during NA prime.

Skooma.3459:

Why? Because everyone feels the need to roam in 5-15 man groups if not in the blob.

I’m not sure what time zone you play, but me and a guildie duo roam regularly (occasionally joined by a third) and we rarely see any JQ or BG roaming smaller than 5-15.

I didn’t read your entire post or any of the other posts because I feel that every solo/duo roamer on all three servers experience the same thing. Any even fight you might start will get adds every time because of the size of the maps and the limited pathways people travel looking for action.

I’m also curious to know what armor/runes & sigils work well with this concept.

Entertaining video as always.

I gave this build a test run tonight to see how it plays. Perhaps I just need more practice with the hammer, but I didn’t have very good results with it. Watching your video again, it felt like your fights were at half the speed of my fights tonight. That could be due to my crappy internet connection and lag caused by the BG/JQ zergs running around, but it was tough landing any hits on the enemy with either weapon set. Also, most opponents were thieves & mesmers, so there’s that.

I don’t think it helped that my roaming partner was playing a glassy spec so was getting downed early or that we were outmanned on the two maps we tried with no towers/keeps to use as a base. At one point, me, my guildie, and two randos were the only people on JQBL.

I’ll keep testing it because hammer is the one weapon I haven’t really explored & I’m not going to give up on it after one night.

Nice video. Always like watching GS/axe, shield footage.

Cactus.2710:

Well, at least you responded and I thank you for that. I’d certainly like to hear the specifics of what you think is deficient, though. If you ever decide to post a summary somewhere else you should at least be able to post a link to it here without getting redacted.

I don’t know of another forum where I could post a summary. Even if I knew of one, I’d be hesitant to post a lot of details because of the NDA. I will say that I was surprised when I saw the April launch announcement because based on my experience I felt it needed another 8-12 months development.

At this point I’m more interested by the fact that somebody has launched a private WAR server that is going to be open PvP and have the old battlefield objectives, keeps, and fortresses in it.

Cactus.2710:

Poxheart.2845:

Raven.9603:

wvw lost population because the season is over. it will be like it has always been: dropping everytime some pve crap launches, spiking temporarily for Edge of the Mists and maybe Season 2, before disappearing completely when ESO launches in april (which is pretty soon in the grand scheme of things). Not that ESO will be great or anything, but for the WvW population, it only has to rise above the low GW2 bar of near-zero wvw development.

It’s bar does not rise above.

How so? If I understand the situation correctly, the TESO equivalent of WvW (the Alliance wars) hasn’t even been included in the beta yet. So on what exactly do you base your comment?

I’m going to put the odds at 100:1 that you don’t reply with anything specific.

I’ve played the ESO equivalent of WvW at max level and there is a myriad of reasons for my comment, but going into specifics would get my post deleted (I’ve seen it happen to others). I will say that there was as much, if not more, zerging as in GW2.

MagiKarp.8201:

Great to see everyone running untagged in Oc/SEA Vanguard had some great fights with FB and TKG tonight WD!

I see the meta has yet to infect SoR, please succumb to the untagged/unblob goodness.

<3

From my experience, most SoR guilds have been running tagless since the later half of Season 1.

Raven.9603:

wvw lost population because the season is over. it will be like it has always been: dropping everytime some pve crap launches, spiking temporarily for Edge of the Mists and maybe Season 2, before disappearing completely when ESO launches in april (which is pretty soon in the grand scheme of things). Not that ESO will be great or anything, but for the WvW population, it only has to rise above the low GW2 bar of near-zero wvw development.

It’s bar does not rise above.

Where is everybody? A guildie and I were running around BGBL tonight and hardly saw anybody. We did find a few fights here & there, but the map was barren.

Well, except for the treb trolls in Sunnyhill lobbing cows at people. That’s dedication right there.

Super Wilson.7408:

OH NO!!!! I saw a Wilson get kill shotted at very end of this…. NOOOOO WILSON DOWN ROFL!

That was my favorite part of the video!

My suggestion: drop 5 points from Arms, add 5 points to Discipline. Fast Hands is a must have.

That was a pretty good selection of fights. I noticed that there weren’t many thieves shown. Is that normal for the servers you fight against? Because it sure isn’t for the servers I usually face!

What do they have to answer for? The rewards were exactly what was deserved.

Thanks for the video. I’d definitely be interested in seeing some footage of your fights.