Justin had the crux of the reasoning correct – it’s a small tweak to your build that a lot of players could do without. It’s a very small stat change in exchange for another aspect of a PvP build. By removing it, it’s one less thing a new player needs to learn. With runes, sigils, amulets, weapon skills, slotted skills, minor traits and major traits, making a build is a pretty hefty process. Jewels were a very, VERY small % of that overall build.
Trust me, doing focus tests and watching new players play the game, our builds can be very overwhelming. You guys are experts by now, but you have to keep in mind that other players are not as advanced as you are, and removing pieces to the builds allows us to slightly lower the barrier to entry.
In August 2012 when I entered the mists for the first time it was 15 seconds… that’s how long it took me to figure out I could have a minor change on my amulet by using a gem. And at the time I remember thinking, “is that all I can do to diversify my build? Where’s the armor and weapons with stats on them?”. I couldn’t believe it and ran around the mists looking for other ways to somehow be able to mix up my stats. The concept that pvp stats were totally different than pve stats took up a lot more of my time than figuring out the gem issue.
wow anet with the changes to sigils how the hell did you come to the conclusion that perp would be a good idea, the new sigils were already expected to make the condi meta stronger and you want to throw perplexity into that………..who ever said this was a good idea you need to fire seriously i cannot grasp how bad of an idea this is
Considering how long that dev response was, it seems obvious who thought “this was a good idea”. I’m starting to wonder how many other “good ideas” have come from him- in particular, adding more conditions as well as more passive play (proc on getting hit, for example)…
It’s still too strong IMO. We don’t need more of this kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t condition.
I’m not very happy about it. I haven’t played solo arena since last November before the changes, when I worked up to around 550 on leaderboards. Because I had started a couple months after the original leaderboard release, I had a lot of catching up to do and I worked my butt off (and frustratingly dealt with being on the wrong side of many 4v5s) to get that high. Then I took a break because of RL and just recently came back.
So I did 2 solo arena matches and we won them both. I wake up the next morning to find I’m in spot 10. I thought something was wrong, and maybe 10% was meant at first when I saw the number. How could it be that I jumped straight up to 10th after not playing for so long? It was only 2 matches I won! So I played one more match last night, which we won. This morning, up to the 2nd spot.
I would like to be happy about this “achievement”, but I just can’t be. I shouldn’t have reached the 2nd spot after winning just 3 matches. I’d of course like to think I’m a decent player, but that just felt too easy- especially considering how hard I worked just to get to around 550 last fall. There are plenty of others who have played hundreds of matches who are surely more deserving of this. This system is not rewarding for anyone. Why did this happen? 3 matches, lol…
Same problem in spvp also
What thief only runs 15 points in critical strikes for opportunist? People go 30 points into critical strikes to be able to actually do any substantial direct damage using the grandmaster trait. Picking up opportunist was a nice bonus.
I am one of those thieves who already mains s/d and uses d/p as a second weapon set, mainly for finishing off opponents and securing a stomp. If you follow through with the changes to sword 2, I can assure you that you pretty much kill sword specs. It’s already hard enough trying to keep up with some other professions in the game’s current state because of their abilities to mindlessly toss out cond’s, ai, and/or stun spamming aoe while having plenty of defensive abilities.
It does require a utility by the way in addition to infiltrator’s return using a great deal of initiative and a little skill to secure a stomp in this way. How is this ANY worse than many other classes just popping STABILITY which takes hardly any (if any) active skill on a player’s part to secure a stomp? Also, using blackpowder, I pull off stomps far easier, using almost the same initiative and don’t even have to use a utility. So why exactly are you changing Infiltrator’s Return based on this supposed “more impactful” use? Your guys’ reasoning sometimes really escapes me.
Ranger and Thief needed the nerfs to vigor pretty badly, especially S/D. Just to troll around I did a hotjoin and dodged 9 times in a row vs. a Mesmer just to see how many I could do. It was totally ridiculous.
Oh really… mind explaining that?
I think you need to go back and do the math there Tyler. This is only a buff for specs that don’t use opportunist in its current state (which most raw-damage builds actually do use), not “all thief specs”. Please correct me if I’m wrong- I’d like to see how much thought is actually put into such changes.
With that said, I don’t really see a nerf to d/d builds other than the vigor nerf since they rely mainly on backstab or death blossom for damage, none of which will likely have a high amount of crits that would utilize the current opportunist trait enough to surpass the future improved init regen. In fact, it seems that d/d may have a slight buff (certainly not “MASSSSSSIVE”).
On another note though, not one word from devs on any thief changes up until now and this is the first response? I think it’s hilarious that the devs idea of rewarding a thief to be more “actively engaged in the fight” include improving a minor PASSIVE heal change (now as a grandmaster trait) and a RANDOM, UNPREDICTABLE, UNCONTROLLABLE, often UNWANTED teleporter when cc’d rather than the ability to actively dodge. This quote alone as well as comments like the one above make myself and others who main thief question how much (or little) you guys really know about actually playing a thief.
(edited by Zerbo.5381)
Which s/d spec are you referring too exactly? There are a couple and not all of them use just dual s/d. In fact, the dual s/d lost popularity a while ago. I personally use s/d and d/p on my main build, and many others do indeed use shortbow as their OH set. These sets take a lot more skill to be good at than I think you realize. At least that’s the way it has been for me and I’ve tried almost all possible thief builds I’ve seen or could think of. Because of thief’s squishiness, he always has to be dodging if not in stealth with the current meta of aoe ai, condition, stun spamming everywhere. The only exception is black powder, which is only effective in melee range.
How do you use d/p if you don’t rely on blackpowder?
D/p is barely viable (many say it isn’t), and you’re the first I’ve seen in a while saying shortbow is so great as a main weapon. I’m curious why this is, so please share your sb build/tacs. Theoretically, even if you have some amazing build that no one else has been able to make successful yet, why should we then be limited to just that one viable weapon? S/d was the only thing that could effectively keep up with the current meta, and now it’s getting nerfed again. Maybe with other professions’ changes the nerfs won’t have a major effect, but I highly doubt that.
Sry, but this is the first patch since the release, where I see not one nerf.
Is this a joke- “Not one nerf”? If not, I think you should go back and read the notes a little more carefully.
If a Thief is stunned, unless he uses a stunbreaker, he should remain as such. Infiltrator’s Return bypassing CC is clearly broken and counter intuitive in my opinion.
If a Thief is stunned or dazed he shouldn’t be able to use Infiltrator’s Return. You need to add some punishment if a Sword Thief is caught without a stunbreaker up. You need to chip in some separators between average thieves and GREAT thieves. A GREAT Thief would use Infiltrator’s Return before the stun arrives, that’s good reward. An average Thief wouldn’t have the timing to avoid the stun and therefor would be punished.
You got your wish. You won’t be able to return while dazed or stunned since it now has a cast time. Combined with the vigor nerfs, s/x builds will have little defense abilities in this meta. I suspect they will die out because of this.
Bad
-Inf return cast time
-Init traits remain where they are – the point of better base init regen is to give us more trait options that help define the spec, not leaving them in place just kittentier.
-Evasion reduction without offering us some other survivability options. If anet feels thieves evade too often, they need to offer us some other way to survive in fights – just nerfing vigor uptime leaves an already squishy class with less options. Combined with the Inf return cast time, it seems S/D will become completely unforgiving.-Inf return cast time
This is actually a good thing. This means S/D thieves would actually have to use stealth (dagger 5) to pull off Shadow Return flawlessly – not easy to do when you’re stunned (but you still can use shadow return w/o stealth), which is a good thing. It also demands other specs other than S/D : S/D which is pure cheese. Anything that brings more skill usage other than skill 3 and the occasional skill 2 in S/D is a good thing. Tactical Strike is still trash tho and S/P is hit with this, but not hard. Most good S/P builds I’ve seen are used more as a side-weapon for other weapons like Shortbow.-Init traits remain where they are
They are making a broad change with general increase in init regen, while reducing the effectiveness of certain init regen skills. I think its too early to see how it will “flow”, but it looks promising to me. d/p perma-stealth (and perma-evasion s/d thieves) is for players who are bad at the thief class anyway.-Evasion reduction
I don’t think decreasing vigor duration is going to be THAT bad. It will be a pain for S/D thieves sure, but I’m fine with that. They need to think more about what they are doing during a fight.Overall, I’m skeptic about this patch, but I’m not on the sky-is-falling bandwagon. If this patch introduces more need for team co-ordination, then I’m all for it. The major thing I’m kittening about is the changes to Ranger. Unbound spirits as a major trait? Wtf?
I agree that d/p permastealth needed to go (should have been done a LONG time ago) and that something needed to be done to the dual s/d 3-spamming build. It kind of sounds like you’re suggesting then that s/d thieves go back to a variant of the stealth stun build from a year ago. There are reasons that’s no longer used- it also got nerfed to no longer be effective in pvp.
Dual s/d builds were cheese, but these changes hurt all the other players who used s/x builds in other ways as you have also pointed out. S/p is already in a bad spot, and any s/d builds that don’t use the 3-3-3-3 build are barely viable as is now if played well. The main concern is that our tools for survivability continue to decrease without compensation.
So I’d really like to hear from you, what builds are left in this brainless aoe-everywhere, ai-everywhere, condition- and stun-spamming meta? D/p blackpowder autoattack will be alright under some situations (fighting melee on point), but too static and hardly viable in others; d/d is out- no survivability nor utility and can’t cap points, p/p- nuff said, p/d- doesn’t work in PVP (and is also pretty cheezy), sb?- meh…
(edited by Zerbo.5381)
I agree with everything evilapprentice said and they were my exact thoughts when going through the notes. I would also add that the nerf to opportunist will probably result in about the same init regain for thieves who currently trait it (so most builds). Only builds that don’t use opportunist will see a noticeable buff in init regain.
A common complaint among the PVP community is the lack of viable builds..
No on in their right mind gives a kitten about build diversity.
There are already a over a dozen top tier builds to pick from, that’s EASILY enough to sustain a population.The issue is that the vast majority of top tier builds suck balls to play.
Anet hasn’t shown a lick of interest in making builds more engaging to play (or maps more fun!!)… they only balance… balance out crappy gameplay…
That’s driven GW2 into the ground.
Nice, insulting through generalizations… I don’t think you pay attention to the forums enough then if that’s the way you feel. People are complaining pretty regularly about the lack of viable builds for their professions and don’t like being “forced” into certain builds without gimping themselves. Maybe a dozen builds are indeed enough to sustain a population, but that doesn’t mean that players are happy about it. Simply adding things to PVP that are already in the game could help mix it up a bit. I do agree that many of these top tier builds aren’t healthy for PVP, but there are plenty of other topics discussing this point.
Diversity is the topic, and food could help with it. As far as balance goes, everyone should be able to have access to the same options of pvp foods/utilities.
A common complaint among the PVP community is the lack of viable builds. Why can’t PVP get ANY of the new runes, sigils and stat combinations that PVE continues to get? We haven’t had ANY new non-cosmetic items PVP since beta. Think about that- 14 months and nothing but fixing a few bugs, organizing runes/sigils and updating a few descriptions. For example, Mad King runes have been in the game for a year now and still aren’t available in PVP.
Additionally, why can’t the use of food and utilities be an option too? These things that are already in place in the game seem like easy solutions to helping create a little more diversity in PVP since “balancing” skills takes place at a slug’s pace and often creates more problems than it solves.
Please share any viable ideas you may have.
My suggestions (for what it’s worth):
- lose caltrops: as funny as it is to see bad players just stand in it and watch the bleed stacks go up, the truth is that you would have beat these players anyway. The only time it is beneficial is if you have multiple baddies. With all the condition removal nowadays though, I think it’s more important to invest in a venom to cover your bleeds.
- lose signet of shadows: you don’t need speed as a p/d thief like you would if you were trying to land backstabs. Keep it on while running around if you want, but always be ready to switch out.
- get Shadowstep: gap closer, 2x stun breaker, remove 3 conditions, gets you out of zergs way to use shadow refuge more safely; there are so many benefits that it’s almost a must as a p/d thief to make up for the lack of utilities in the set
- get skale venom: I personally would go with skale to get another 2 conditions up to cover bleeds and torment does decent damage in itself.
- replace sigil of force with corruption until you get your stacks, and even then, I would rather use an on-swap sigil if possible. An extra 5% damage on this build is nothing, especially with dire gear.
- bleed duration is currently at 65% with best food, you’re wasting 15% duration. Either make it 75% (preferably) or 50%. I wouldn’t worry about 100%.
So you only need to worry about getting poisons up, and you have a couple options:
- Use bow OH number 4: These is effective, but you kind of expose yourself more with bow. You’ll have to find a way of doing this without losing the flow of constant pressure from p/d bleeds and getting yourself killed while out of stealth. Having a bow OH for avoiding zergs is helpful though.
- Lose 5 trait points under either acrobatics or trickery and put them in deadly arts. If you find yourself doing a lot of 1vMany, then I would keep trickery and change it to Ricochet. While you’re at it, change the first trickery to Uncatchable. If you mainly do 1v1’s, lose the 5 trickery points (or maybe the trickery line altogether and put 10 under deadly arts, and 30 in acrobatics).
- get sigil of doom with either another p/d OH set (easier to manage, but no mobility and lack of utilities) or a d/x set (harder to manage, but more mobility and utility)
- replace spider venom for skale: I personally like using other ways of getting poison on.
The actual glory is 427, but why is that too high for tournaments? What you fail to mention is that a single tournament like the one in the pic above takes significantly more time (and skill) to complete than just joining hot-join (unless you get in the common 4v5 situations). The queue itself can take the same amount of time that you could finish a hot-join game or even more. Due to these factors, tournaments SHOULD reward much higher. If I can get 250 glory for two ez-mode hot-join games in the time that I finish a tournament, then the difference in glory is actually higher with hot-joins in the end.
Germany-
UnityMedia, O2
Austria-
Chello
The lag started already with the southsun patches for some people.
It’s happening in Germany, France, Australia, Poland and even the US also- probably even more places. Those are just some locations off the top of my head from reading people’s responses. That’s a lot of different ISPs all with the same problem showing info packet loss at the same IP addresses (usually outside Wichita, Kansas) located in the US right before connecting with Anet’s direct servers in Washington state…
I doubt they know what’s going on. Or they do know, but it would be too expensive and/or time-consuming to bother fixing.
Mobs and players don’t miss asura more- the hitbox is the same for all races.
I doubt it’s being looked at anymore. They supposedly made some changes a week and half ago, announced it, told everyone who’s still having problems to send in a ticket. When you do this, they’ll explain packet loss and you’ll just be told it’s your ISP and that your ISP should look into it.
I recently had a couple good days surprisingly when the lag hit much later than usual. It has come back today however even earlier than normal. The time of when the lag hits seems to change after patches.
I have blind on stealth- I’ve only noticed it have an effect once on the shadow shot. Too bad the video on the ele cuts off before the last fight. I’m really curious how he did it. I haven’t even gotten to the first cannon phase…
So I figured I’d try soloing Aetherblade retreat on my thief. I’ve made it all the way to Mai Trin and Horrik, but because the damage from Mai Trin’s shadow shot can’t be dodged, I keep dying. As a thief, the only projectile blocker I have is smoke screen, but I have 17 seconds in between cd’s. I can dodge the shadow shot just fine, but I still get the damage anyway- pretty lame if you ask me. What’s the point of using dodge on this fight if you still get punished anyway? Has anyone been able to do this? Maybe a guardian?
I think that a lot of people agree with most of what you’ve said here. It’s just likely that the majority of those players have already moved on (like my entire original guild) or don’t bother responding anymore because they know they won’t get a response from anyone at Anet, and will end up just having to defend their opinion regardless of how constructive it is to other players who are quite satisfied with the state of the game.
I don’t really see what it has to do with whether or not you like hard-to-catch, but I’d be happy to duel sometime on my thief- a draw won’t be an issue. Just w/ me. BTW, I don’t use d/d cond build normally.
Looks like a nice new condition build. The only drawback I see is no stunbreaker. Shadowstep would seem essential for the last utility if roaming, at least for my preferences.
Travlane, you’re the first player I’ve ever heard of who not only likes this trait, but also regularly uses it in his build. To all his own, but I’d imagine that people of course have tried it at one point or another and I don’t think most of them like temporarily losing control of their characters and being forced to randomly teleport away anytime they are cc’d. That’s exactly what I was thinking when I used it at least. Shadowstep does the same thing even better, which you are of course 100% in control of. I was also disappointed that the change only reduces the cd in the grandmaster trait. IMO, the whole trait is flawed unless you like unpredictable randomness. There are certainly better traits in acrobatics to choose from.
Lyssa runes are excellent for pvp, and synergize especially well with boon-stealing builds. If you wanted to do a non-stealth s/d build in wvw, they would also be a very good option for the same reasons. They offer more than just simply damage as ruby orbs are limited to.
I main s/d and I agree that it is very good for getting in and out, and face tanking to an extent. But limiting yourself to just this one weapon set I think is inferior to using a combination of weapon sets in wvw at least. I didn’t see any play here that left me with the feeling that this was “freakin awesome”.
I also wouldn’t underestimate the mobility of d/p. For example, shadow shot from d/p also makes it quite mobile when in combat- you basically have a 900 range shadowstep directly to your opponent on demand, which is great for catching people and getting into combat. Heartseeker of course also is another mini gap closer with good damage. S/d however, is limited to its one 600 range infiltrator strike, which you likely used up already to get into combat in the first place. FS does make the set mobile, but once your enemy is out of range, you’re left struggling trying to reach your opponent unless you blow a utility or steal is up. Both sets have their advantages and disadvantage, which is why I argue that more variety is better. Personally, it’s also more fun for me than just spamming 2-3-3-3-3-3-3-2 all the time.
Based on your videos, you’re obviously a good player, so I just wanted to get that out of the way. I don’t however see double s/d being “freakin awesome” here. You’re only good in that enemy front line for as long as you can evade, and often have to withdraw to wait for cd’s, getting hp/initiative back up in between. You don’t bring any combo fields to support your team and it takes a while to actually get players down. With better weapons that time would have been reduced of course, but I still think it would be lacking in damaging fast enough.
D/p however would take most of those upleveled characters down with a backstab and a heartseeker. As you probably already know, s/d and d/p go together actually quite well and the synergy gives a thief a lot more tools than simply spamming 2-3-3-3-3-3-3-2 90% of the time. I think this combo will always be superior to double s/d in wvw because of its versatility. It’s great that you’re trying out new things though.
Sounds like you’ve been infected with the rubberbanding issue at certain times of the day. There’s a big thread on it under Tech Support. There were some responses from Anet, but now they’re silent about it- so it probably won’t get fixed.
I think people here are reporting different types of lag. But for those experiecing rubberbanding and skill lag at only specific times of the day- if you send a ticket, after running the diagnostic test and pingpotter, they will just tell you that it’s your ISP. I think they have given up on finding a solution and just accept the risk of people leaving the game instead of investing money and time into getting it fixed. You bought the game already, so they likely have the most of the money that you would spend on the game anyway.
Some good ideas here. I’ve been trying out new builds since the patch and I kept wishing there was another way to be able to remove conditions other than going into stealth. Having some way of removing conditions via dodge is a great idea. However, I think that your proposed change to quick pockets would be OP. It’s already quite strong as it is for certain builds.
That’s a good point, but I guess I just haven’t really had that issue much while playing d/p. When I played p/d however, last refuge was a problem daily and was directly responsible for easily a third of my deaths while solo roaming wvw or in hot join. I’ve yet noticed last refuge be the cause of my death with d/p.
Funny, I was playing around with this exact build yesterday. It did pretty well for the most part. Something I would consider is changing your runes to melandru to reduce the damage you’ll take from conditions. I found that with the passive healing from signet of malice I was able to outheal the condition damage for the most part as long as I wasn’t taking on more than one opponent focused on condition damage. I was tanking 2-3 players for longer periods of times, being able to keep a point contested, and often downing some of the players in the process. Unfortunately, mobility can be an issue, so this build is somewhat situational and it’s not very effective if you’re being kited. I would also consider using sigils of leeching for more staying power.
With that said, I found p/d to still be superior for conditions because you have more flexibility. I’m still playing around with builds, but the ricochet buff was actually really nice, particularly if used with signet of malice. Here’s a new p/d build I tried out in PVP today- was doing surprisingly quite well in 5-man hot join at least.
5-0-30(IV, VI-may be able to trade for other, XI)-15(II)-20(III, X)
signet of malice, caltrops, spider venom, and either shadow refuge, shadowstep or black powder, dagger storm
carrion gear, 2 krait, centaur, afflicted runes; sigil of leeching and corruption
I was surviving and killing 1v2 regularly, often with almost full HP still, being called a cheater and OP in the process. The passive healing is really good. Only problem is keeping those points contested while fighting. Because of this, I doubt it would be of much use in tPVP- as has always been a problem with p/d.
The last refuge change isn’t a nerf for d/p because they don’t use cloak and dagger. It’s actually a buff for any set not using dagger in the offhand, especially for d/p, which supports the point you’re trying to make about d/p even more.
My daily lag in pacific standard time is around 10 AM to 5 PM, so I can’t play the game in European evening time. When does your daily lag hit in PST?
Just so you know, both your sigils have a cooldown, which means one of them is useless. I was also thinking of giving this a go, although I don’t think I’d sacrifice the 10 in CS for 10 in shadow arts, especially since you’ll hardly go into stealth anyway. If you find that conditions are still a problem, maybe consider runes of melandru.
Nightly lag is still here, and there’s a lack of a response from Anet. I sure hope that you don’t think your little comment last Friday will make people shut up and that the problem can just be swept under the carpet.
Would this disappear if people in Europe would play on EU servers rather than US servers?
Based on the recent preview, it appears to be true. This just is blowing my mind. kitten (can’t type “As” and “so” together) many have pointed out, this is one of the worst traits for any player who regularly uses cloak and dagger, particularly in PvP. Maybe it’s fine for s/d FS spammers, shortbow, p/p and d/p, but this is going to be even more of a problem than it has been for d/d, p/d and s/d daze builds, which we already see less of. In builds that depend on CnD, this trait almost only rewards bad players, and punishes good ones. Unfortunately, there is no way to turn it off. Is this Anet’s way of intentionally attempting to nerf cloak and dagger for anyone who goes into shadow arts? Or do they really just have no idea how dagger offhand is played?
I can only hope that if this indeed goes through that they’ve found a way to synchronize it with other stealth-entering mechanics rather than make you waste initiative or a utility, take you out of stealth and put you on that long, dreading debuff when your health is already under 25% even more often than it already does.
Daily lag hit about 9:45 AM PST. This problem hasn’t been fixed.
It sounds like you’ve maybe just started using cloak and dagger (please correct me if I’m wrong). This skill requires perfect timing to land properly. When I first started using it in the beginning, I used to miss quite frequently. But after a few days, I hardly missed. A few weeks later, I never missed unless I sneezed, had lag or I was playing a good opponent who knew how to dodge properly.
If it’s an experience issue, just keep with it. Practice on mobs to get the feel and timing of it. Eventually it will become second nature. If it’s lag, well, not much I can tell you.
p/d thieves are the bane of all existence in WvW. Its almost impossible to catch them and equally difficult to get away from them. And they are a condition build, Torment is exactly what they would use.
So, what now? ANet found that some Thieves were still getting caugth, or lose their target? They attempted to fix it before when they buffed the trait to increase speed in stealth to a whooping 50%. And now this.
Yeah this is going to be real fun. Cannot ever catch a p/d thief, and cannot ever escape a p/d thief.
Also, what the hell is up with all these boons/conditions that punish players for just playing the game? Retaliation if you hit me, Confusion if you use any skill and now Torment for just moving. Seems kinda important to get out of AoE and such…So, next patch we’ll see another new condition? Suffering mayhaps? Deals extra damage if the target stays logged in? Thief exclusive, obviously.
What makes you think that p/d thieves are so hard to catch and that it’s so difficult to run away from them? Both this and p/p weapon sets have the lowest mobility for thieves. As a player who used to run a p/d thief in WvW, I can assure you that just about anyone can run away from this build and people will catch the thief if they want to. This is actually one of the biggest problems with this weapon set, and in addition to bad synergy of skills and limited to damage done by mainly one condition, may partially explain why hardly anyone plays p/d thief nowadays. The possibility of being able to use torment now can possibly help deal with these problems and make p/d and maybe even p/p somewhat more viable.
I do however share your frustration on all of these conditions that “punish” players for simply playing, if anything, even preventing quality play (such as not moving, not doing fast attacks or using skills at all). I’m even more concerned that all of these “punishing” conditions will be available to one particular profession. I hope a balance was somehow worked out to prevent it from being OP.
Honestly, I don’t know why I bother, but I’m bored. There is no specific definition for “grind”. (By the way, “this grind” in American slang can also be interpreted as “a grind”, and based on the way the word is used, actually sounds like what is meant here). The word “grind” is only used to describe the context of what exists in “most games”. As you’ve pointed out, you can only assume what “grind” means based on the context. However, the context itself is also open for interpretation. Most importantly, what does “the fun stuff” mean?
Therefore, the fallacy of your argument is that you base a description of a word based on a context that in itself is open for interpretation, then impose that description on the second part of the dialogue, making it only valid to your specific point of view. Additionally, it seems that you attempt to hide this fallacy by trying to convince everyone of your expertise on this subject, claiming what I and others see as your opinion to be fact.
Personally, I don’t really care if the manifesto was a lie or not, but I am concerned that some aspects of it don’t match the game we have now. Whether it was intended or not, a lot of people had the impression after watching the manifesto that there would be little grind in this game in general. I think the most important lesson to take from this topic, regardless of the manifesto, is that many people do feel that a lot grind does exist in this game, and they aren’t happy about it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear to be changing anytime soon, and some have even argued that it’s getting worse. This is why the feel the need to speak out against it. Continually implying it’s their own fault for having these expectations in the first place because they’ve interpreted the manifesto incorrectly isn’t necessarily helping the well-being of the game in general.
Again, you are making assumptions. There is no official “definition” of grind at all. I think most people would agree that the definition of the word “grind” is more complex than simply “I swung a sword. I swung a sword again”, or are you referring to the sentence before? If that’s the case, why would you use the word “grind” in a sentence to describe itself? You also haven’t replied to how other people may interpret “fun stuff”.
You’re still stuck on the idea that this is a written document, when it is most likely (and sounds like if listened to) a collection of sound bites being pieced together, with, IMO, the intent to convince it’s viewers in general that Anet doesn’t want its “players to grind” because they realize that “no one enjoys that” and “no one finds it fun”. If you limit this to include only the leveling experience, that’s your interpretation. I and many others have further interpretations however.
I’ve gotten my opinion across, so I’ll leave it at that. Do what you want with it. Honestly, the manifesto doesn’t matter much to me anyway. I care much more about the state of the game now and the direction it has been going. I’m not very happy about what I see for many of the reasons people have pointed out here. I do have hope though.
well, my topic wasnt finished- got mixed up with the tabs and accidentally sent rather than add another paragraph, which is why I deleted right away, but apparently you pressed refresh faster than I the delete button.
assume it reads like this:
“When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’
In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great.
We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
Also, you don’t know me, nor what I do. Perhaps I’m also a “professional editor”. I hardly see how that validates your arguments any more.
Lately I’ve been wondering if there’s a “planned obsolescence” in the game design.
There are bugs and broken mechanics still in place that have been there since launch — some of which have been acknowledged by ANet staff. Yet they continually remain unaddressed. Add to that a constant stream of new, shiny, temporary content that, while it has its bright spots for some, is really pretty shallow.
What does this pattern do for the game? The new shiny stuff makes for great advertising copy. They can publish screen shots of characters with the newest (mostly unattainable) weapon skins, fighting cool new monsters and engaging in fresh new encounters. This draws in new players, which means more box sales and potential new gem shop customers.
Meanwhile, veteran players get frustrated and fed up with the same old broken content. It’s almost like ANet is saying to veteran players, “You’ve played the game already. Move along.”
I think you’ve put your finger on something here. Although we can only speculate, this would explain quite a lot. I would additionally add that it may get some of those who have left to come back long enough to spend money in an attempt to get the newest items, and then leave once again after they discover how little new content and activities have actually been added.